The "Gay Christian" Movement: A Response Part 2

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July 4, 2014

The second evening of the Discern Conference at Gospel Light Community Church in Santa Fe, NM, providing a Christian response to the "Gay Christian" movement exemplified by Matthew Vines, Justin Lee, etc.

Who was the Founder of Christianity? Jesus or Paul? Part 3

00:00: Introduce everybody yesterday. So my name is Paul in case you you don't know Yes, so let's get started let's pray
00:10: The father we do pray for James this evening Lord God that you give him wisdom father we are
00:20: Amazed at the the speed that this message has
00:26: Infiltrated our society and so we pray that we would have the loving spirit to Confront those in this movement with the truth
00:40: And bless us now we ask in Jesus name Amen Dr. James white
00:45: I want
00:57: I want everybody to know that I am allegedly able to see my text in front of me more clearly because I was unaware that Brother Paul has a thing for clean screens and so I put this thing up here and I went toward the back and I turn around he's up here rubbing away on it and I've just sort of gotten used to it.
01:24: There's a reason it's called a touch screen and so, you know, you just look past that kind of stuff, but It is it is good to be with you this evening last evening
01:35: We began looking at the subject of what is calling itself the gay
01:40: Christian movement I would like to point out I rarely use that terminology myself. I don't think that the term gay is an appropriate term
01:48: It is a term that some Homosexuals demand that we use or we are offending them but it is not descriptive and It reminds me of certain
01:59: Christmas carols. That's No longer have the same meaning they once did Because a word has been completely altered as to its meaning, but I don't think that's a major issue outside of the fact that it does illustrate once again the fact that Many people within this movement seem to feel they have the right to demand that the rest of the world
02:24: Accommodate their particular perspective. We began looking at this movement and in essence what it is is a minority movement the minority of people who self -identify as homosexuals would identify as Christians and Then within that group
02:46: There is not a unanimous perspective. I mean certainly I know of individuals who
02:54: Experience what we mentioned last evening that being same -sex attraction and And They recognize however that it is not an appropriate set of desires that it is not
03:08: Godly it is not something that That God has given freedom to act upon and to allow these desires to define who they are and so You do have however a militant group of people that would be seen in the gay
03:30: Christian Network in Matthew Vine's Reformation Project and They are receiving support from non -homosexual liberal scholars
03:41: Who utilize this particular perspective for various reasons? As a means of promoting a particular view of the
03:51: Bible a particular view of Christianity You know that in our day the term progressive has become very popular
03:58: Of course any movement involves progression Lemmings progress off of a cliff
04:06: And so just utilizing that kind of terminology that does not mean that you're progressing forward in any way but together this small minority of a small minority movement is
04:21: Making great headway because the fact that our society Wants to believe
04:28: That the scriptures really are not clear enough To identify any activity as sinful our society wants reasons to disbelieve and I will
04:43: Finish this evening by making one incredibly important point that I want you. I'll make it now.
04:48: I want you to hear it and then I will Explicate it later on this is a gospel issue.
04:55: This is a gospel issue a Lot of people would say it's not no no no this this should not divide this should this is this is not a gospel issue
05:05: This is a ethics and morality issue. It's an interpretational issue It's just six verses anyways, and I hope that After our talk last evening you know why that's not an appropriate perspective to take but but I say to you
05:20: It is a gospel issue not only Will we see this evening? the
05:25: The primary argument being used against the understanding of Romans chapter 1 which is where we'll be
05:32: Starting if you want to look at that text Not only is the primary argument that the prohibitions against Homosexuality came from a time when people did not know about monogamous lifelong committed homosexual relationships and Therefore since Paul didn't know about this kind of homosexual and This kind of homosexual relationship, then he must have been talking about something else
06:10: He must have been talking about what we see in gay pride marches Well, it's interesting to me that people like Matthew Vines and Justin Lee and others.
06:21: I don't see them out calling those people in gay pride marches to repent of their
06:29: Outrageous behavior. It's interesting that that is the case, but be that as it may their whole argument is
06:36: The scriptural writers simply didn't know what we know today. That is a fundamental denial the sufficiency of Scripture And I do not believe that a person who holds that view will long be able to hold almost any
06:51: Orthodox Christian Perspective because what it requires us to believe is that the level of knowledge of the writer determines the application of what is written and Historic Christian belief has been that all scripture is
07:05: Theanostos. It is God breathed and while men are The ones through whom
07:11: God brought the scriptures They spoke from God as they were being carried along by the
07:16: Holy Spirit and So they could speak of truths that transcended their own limited knowledge
07:23: The fundamental argument that is being made today is that's not how we should view scripture And so it is a scriptural issue.
07:31: But again, it is also a gospel issue. I believe That if we listen carefully to what is being said
07:39: By the Matthew Vines and the Justin Lees of our world today By for example a book was just put out a few months ago a letter to my congregation
07:53: I believe the name was Ken Thompson. It's it's a Ken something. I don't have it in front of me
08:01: But here was a pastor if I recall correctly of a vineyard church in The north -central part of the
08:10: United States Explaining to his congregation why he had come to a gay affirming position
08:17: When you listen to the arguments that these people are putting forward and they're primarily
08:22: Dependent upon a certain core of scholarly literature starting back with John Boswell and now the the most current big book that they are dependent upon is a book on the
08:37: Bible gender and sexuality by Dr. Brownson from 2013 when you when you listen to what they're actually saying and Follow it through If you were to believe in that kind of interpretation, we would no longer be able to define what sin is
08:57: If you can't define what sin is Then you can't explain why there's a need for a cross, a
09:04: Savior, the resurrection, and the gospel itself Why does Jesus die upon a cross?
09:12: If one of the most plain and clear violations of God's law isn't
09:19: Then can't that same reasoning be used for anything else and Hence, we no longer have a basis for understanding what sin is in the first place
09:29: We'll get to that before we finish this evening, but last evening we pointed out that it is wrong to say
09:37: That there are only six verses in the Bible that are relevant. The entire Bible is relevant Why? Because everything that the
09:43: Bible says about God's creative purpose about marriage about men and women is always
09:49: Heterosexual even though there are diminishments. There are steps down from God's perfect plan in the form of polygamy
09:57: That always brought pain and destruction to those that were involved with it. It was always
10:03: Heterosexual. There is nothing Absolutely positively nothing anywhere in Scripture that says anything positive about homosexual relationships
10:12: Now this is so devastating that there have been many especially within what's called the metropolitan church movement
10:19: Who have attempted to find some of the most incredibly absurd Examples of homosexuality in the
10:28: Bible. I'll just mention two in passing and by the way if you're taking notes
10:34: Let me let me recommend to you a further reading right now before I forget Surely the the most scholarly work and what remains the most scholarly work is
10:47: Robert Gagnon's work on the subject of homosexuality G -A -G -N -O -M In the past couple of years
10:55: I co -authored a book called the same -sex controversy Back in I believe it was 2001.
11:02: It's amazing how much the book needs to be updated now Not because the biblical arguments have changed at all
11:08: But because of the vast volume of literature that has been produced and of course the huge changes in society that have taken place since that time period a few years ago
11:20: I have a dear friend and brother and if if Michael Brown and I do not demonstrate my ecumenical spirit
11:28: I don't know who else possibly could because Michael and I end up debating each other more often than we end up debating others unfortunately
11:36: But our debates are always brotherly But Michael and I have a lot of different perspectives on things
11:42: But when we're talking about the same issues the central core of the Christian faith We are
11:51: Let's let's say a very effective duo in debating these subjects, and I love
11:56: Michael and I look forward to working with him more in the future, but He has written two books now on homosexuality, and if you don't have them you don't have the best books on the subject
12:08: A queer thing happened to America is a huge volume Extensively researched, but it will help you greatly in understanding
12:16: What's going on in our society and then he just came out with can you be gay and Christian? Which he did not have access to Matthew Vines book but it came out within about two or three weeks of when
12:28: Matthew Vines book came out and Is very much along the lines of the same -sex controversy that Jeff Neal and I wrote
12:37: So if you can avail yourself of those those works you will have a great deal of material to work with in responding to these issues going beyond the brief period of time that we have
12:53: Here last evening in this evening to address these particular these particular subjects, so I wanted to make sure to mention those
13:00: Because further study would be very good Because all of us if we want to be able to interact with our society
13:09: We'll be interacting with the types of argumentation that is out there and believing scholars have responded to this material but obviously
13:19: Have one mid -20s Non -graduate from college write a book on this subject and every media outlet in the world
13:28: Wants to interview him Have someone who has extensive experience and biblical knowledge the subject write a book on the subject and they could care less
13:36: Which only demonstrates the nature of the mainstream media and the society in which we live so we saw that the entire
13:46: Bible is heterosexual in its orientation and That it's not just a matter of six verses
13:54: That the Bible gives a positive presentation in regards to God's creative purpose in male and female and their relationships with one another
14:03: Then we began looking at those six verses because they are Subject to revision on the part of these individuals who are writing these books
14:14: And as a result we looked at Sodom and Gomorrah We looked at briefly not as long as I would like to have
14:21: Leviticus 18, Leviticus 20 and the subject of the Holiness Code. I would strongly recommend to you the further reading of that section of Leviticus so that you might
14:34: Really have a full understanding and recognition of how central that section really is
14:40: To any type of moral and ethical system when you read that section and it talks about Caring for the elderly and caring for the poor and all of these things you have to remember that that stuff is there and that those who mock and deride that section of Scripture always ignore the centrality of That kind of just simple human morality that is contained in in those texts, but obviously the greatest
15:11: Focus and debate is Upon the New Testament texts that we will look at this evening and as I said the first will be
15:19: Romans chapter 1 Romans chapter 1 now as I said this may well be one of the most important of all
15:28: New Testament texts I certainly find myself in so many contexts Returning to Romans chapter 1 it is fundamental for our understanding of sin.
15:37: It is fundamental for our having a meaningful Anthropology. I would submit to you that there is far more wisdom to be gathered from a full reading of the first chapter of Romans than in the vast majority of Psychiatry and psychology that is available today.
15:57: In fact I would submit to you that one of the amazing examples of the inspiration of the text of Scripture is the fact that in these rather few
16:07: Sentences the Apostle Paul could so accurately Identify the issues of mankind that would transcend
16:18: Geographical boundaries, cultural boundaries, language boundaries, and time boundaries.
16:24: These words were written 2 ,000 years ago and Yet they continue to accurately reflect what we see in mankind in all of his various manifestations around this world
16:36: How does that happen? Well, we know why it happens In Romans chapter 1 beginning of verse 18
16:45: Before Paul ever gets to the good news. He has to explain the bad news
16:51: One of the major problems we have in what's called evangelicalism today Whatever that term means anymore, and I don't know it can be defined any longer, and it may not even be useful
17:02: But one of the main problems that you see in conservative churches that still take the
17:07: Bible at least somewhat seriously is a rush to get to the good news
17:14: Without announcing the bad news. Jesus never did that The first words out of Jesus's mouth were not
17:21: John 3 16 even if Jesus said John 3 16 We're not sure whether John's saying that or Jesus is saying that but be it as it may
17:28: Those weren't the first words out of Jesus's mouth If you look at the first recorded examples of his preaching it was repent and believe the kingdom of God is at hand and So when
17:44: Paul decides he wants to lay out the entirety of the gospel and Explain this the church at Rome knowing that if the church at Rome has this letter
17:54: That that teaching is going to be then be distributed throughout the known Roman world at the time He starts
18:01: With the second half of the first chapter all the second chapter and the first half of the third chapter all is bad news it is about sin and If we're going to address what
18:15: Romans 1 26 and following says about homosexuality don't just jump into it
18:20: I mean okay if you're You're sitting with somebody on a bus, and you only have a few minutes all right fine
18:26: If you have to do that, but if you really want to address this issue in a meaningful fashion You especially every one of you
18:36: Needs to know the flow of the thought in this text So that you can express it and answer questions about it
18:46: Now I'm not saying it's not good to memorize those verses it'd be great if you memorize those verses but We really need to understand
18:56: What the entire text is saying because when we do then we can answer questions, and when we explain it to people
19:02: It's not just sort of a rote memorization type thing We're really actually explain explaining to people what the text is really all about so let's walk through it
19:11: I can't spend as much time on as I'd like I'm gonna have to fight the temptation to start preaching in a number of points but especially because we need to get some to some other texts, but Digging into verse 8 18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men
19:28: Who suppress the truth and unrighteousness? Now the wrath of God is being revealed.
19:34: It is a present tense in the original language. It's not something It's just gonna happen in the future someday the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men
19:46: Who suppress the truth and unrighteousness now some people say well? That's just some people no All ungodliness
19:53: Paul's going to conclude at the end of this all have sinned and so these are universal statements
19:58: They're gonna be people will say well Romans 1 is just about a certain select group of people It's it's only about people who engage in idolatry
20:05: Yeah That's everybody if you're not bowing the knee to God you're engaging in idolatry because you're giving to the creation that which belongs to God alone and notice the description of Men who suppress the truth and unrighteousness it is a present tense participle cata canton it refers to holding something down sort of like when you would have a
20:27: If you have a pool or something like that And you'd take one take a basketball or one of those beach balls you try to hold it underwater
20:35: It takes energy to suppress the natural desire of that ball to come flying up out of the water and if you stop
20:44: Expending energy for but a moment. What's gonna happen? It's gonna shoot right up out of the water well in the same way there is a suppression of the truth on the part of sinful men
20:57: Paul's whole point is gonna be that God has made his existence and the truth about him so well known
21:04: That as he's gonna say in just a couple of verses men are unapologetus They are without an apologetic.
21:10: They're without an excuse they cannot make a consistent Argument in defense of their rejection of his truth
21:19: That's why Romans 1 is also really important when it comes to apologetic methodology, and how we approach
21:26: That particular issue as well verse 19 Why do they have to suppress this truth because that which is known about God not that which is knowable
21:36: But that which is known about God is evident within them For God made it evident to them
21:45: Now I think that's primarily in reference to the internal existence of the conscience
21:51: The fact that were made in the imago Dei the image of God but it could also be understood as amongst them as in amongst the the societies of men where we find these
22:03: These rather regular common Laws that are seem to be the possession of almost all men except those who seemingly are given over to their evil
22:13: But God has noticed God made it evident to them. God has made revelation
22:18: We call this in systematic theology natural revelation Because as we're about to see it is a part of the creation itself verse 20 for a sense the creation of the world
22:29: His invisible attributes his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made
22:35: So that they are unapologetous without an apologetic without a defense and So there has been a revelation in the creation of what of everything in the gospel
22:48: This is this is not the gospel and the stars stuff This is not if you just look at the constellations, right?
22:55: You'll figure out the Trinity and the doctrine of sanctification Specifically it is his eternal power and divine nature that has been made known
23:04: They have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made with such clarity that the person that refuses to acknowledge the existence of the
23:14: Creator God and In fact do what verse 21 says give thanks to him and honor him
23:20: Has no consistent argument in defense of his behavior now you might say
23:27: Atheists have all sorts of arguments in defense of their behavior, but they're not consistent arguments the whole point is that Anyone if they are going to argue against the existence of God is going to have to borrow
23:42: From the Christian worldview to do it They're gonna have to borrow From the world they really exist in to be able to make their argumentation and so they're without excuse
23:54: The revelation is that clear for even though they knew God Says they knew
24:01: God They did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened and so as Francis Schaeffer wrote in his book the
24:11: God who got he is there and he is not silent the God who is there What's the point the point is that even in man's religions?
24:20: What you have in man -made religion? Is an attempt to suppress the revelation that God has made of his own existence
24:29: And if we will not Admit that he exists and will not deal with his own revelation Then we can religiously suppress that knowledge we can we can do that in the apathy we see in the society around us
24:42: We can do that in any form of idolatry and my is our culture steeped in idolatry
24:49: You say well, what do you mean? I don't see any hideous idols on the street corners Well, actually you do almost every billboard you pass
24:57: Points us to the idolatry of our nation To the fact that we take God's blessings and we are not thankful for God's blessings
25:06: That that we engage in constant covetousness It's almost like our economic system is based upon The normality of covetousness
25:16: Hey, just see what your neighbor got. Did you see that 60 -inch? Well, we now have 68 inch
25:22: TVs in stock. What's the new thing 4k? Is that what the new thing is as far as a resolution?
25:28: I don't know took me a long time to even get a flat screen, but You know, however, that's that's working.
25:35: That's that's just how we think that's how we are and in our in our Universities in our academic settings
25:40: It is the idolatry of the human mind the praise of the human mind
25:46: Not the human mind is created by God under the Lordship of Christ But the idolatry of the human mind that exists in and of itself without reference to its creator and without giving
25:57: Thanks to its creator For everything and every capacity that it has
26:02: This is idolatry and notice what says they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened when you rebel against the source of life
26:13: You will be damaged in the entirety of your being as a result
26:18: If we are made to have communion with God When that communion is broken every aspect of our being will be impacted
26:30: Including and this is a real violation of the dogma of secularism the mind the mind
26:39: We as creatures Should think in such a way that honors
26:46: God If we were to think the way we're supposed to think God would not be an object of knowledge out there
26:55: Instead we would see ourselves as a creature God as the center of all things and instead of putting ourselves in the center and then everything else
27:06: We just think directly about it. So here's history. Here's medicine. Here's law. Here's morality. Here's ethics.
27:11: Here's science We're in the center God's out here too. So we think about God and theology like that. That's a secular world
27:17: That's not how we are to think If we are God's creatures Then we are out here
27:23: God is in the center and to have true knowledge of any of these things We have knowledge of them as we relate to God So if I want to have a true knowledge of science,
27:32: I do it through God. I don't go directly to science. I go through God who created the science and defines it if I want to have true knowledge of it and how it relates to Everything else that's a
27:42: Christian worldview Sadly that's not how most of us think we talk about Christian worldview all the time
27:53: But how many of us actually expend? Almost any time during the course of the day
28:02: Repairing our Christian worldview if we've even properly formed one to begin with The vast majority of quote -unquote evangelical churches in our land are filled with people who have a pagan worldview not a
28:13: Christian worldview They've just slathered a bunch of Jesus stuff on the top. You know, it's peanut butter
28:18: Christianity and We wonder why they so easily collapse
28:24: When challenges to fundamental biblical truths are presented to them especially when they're presented under the guise of what the society says is right and That is why my friends there will be a tsunami of Collapse upon this very issue
28:44: It's happening that the first waves are happening right now, but the tsunami will be happening over the next couple of years
28:50: We've already seen the liberal denominations, you know that the PC USA Just a couple weeks ago
28:56: Gave in on this subject that didn't surprise anybody because all the conservatives were jumping ship out of the
29:02: PC USA for the past number of decades and finally, there's just so few left that they could no longer hold back the
29:09: The the tide and so a couple weeks ago all it's left of liberals
29:14: And so they collapsed on this but there's gonna be much more much much more
29:20: From people that will shock you Will shock you It will be a tsunami
29:27: I Guarantee it you just watch
29:34: You just watch it's coming because you see the vast majority of people do not have a
29:39: Christian worldview and the only way for you to understand why
29:45: Capitulation on this issue is actually a gospel issue. It's a capitulation to hatred.
29:51: It's a capitulation to the culture of death It's a capitulation of the very same forces that promote abortion in our society the only way for you to understand that is if you have an actually well -formed biblically based
30:03: Christian worldview and Most of our people don't have one They just don't have one So you notice they became futile in their speculations.
30:11: Their foolish heart was darkened the entirety of man is impacted by sin
30:18: Professing to be wise they became fools so they profess to be wise
30:24: But you see the only what's what's the beginning of knowledge? It's the fear of the Lord once you reject the
30:30: Lord and make your put yourself in his position How can you have true knowledge? How can you have true wisdom?
30:37: But you'll claim it and boy do we hear that from our society today professing to be wise they became fools and here we go here's here's where you need to start tuning back in if you've if you've lost me and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible
30:51: God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and forfeit animals and crawling creatures Here is the essence of idolatry
30:58: If you will not worship the one you were created to worship you will worship something It may be the created order itself.
31:08: It may be the gross Idolatry of people bowing down before idols which still happens go to India sometime or the more subtle forms that are so prevalent in Western society of The idolatry toward the mind of man towards science toward the fulfillment of one's lusts and desires
31:29: There are many people whose idols they pay mortgage payments on They pay the bank for that idol that they take out to the lake each weekend
31:39: The car they drive around the Plastic surgery that they've had done upon themselves to try to pretend that The years are not passing by like they are for everybody else
31:51: Whatever it might be There is going to be an exchange they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible
32:00: God for something else There is a fundamental Reorientation of the relationship between creator and creation
32:11: It's supposed to be like this. It has become twisted in the fall of man
32:17: Therefore verse 24 God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity
32:23: So that their bodies would be dishonored among them God created the body of man to glorify him when we keep our vessels
32:36: In such a manner as to glorify God and we have him first and foremost in our thoughts
32:43: Then he is glorified and we will not engage in impure activity. But Now that this exchange has taken place
32:52: Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity
32:58: So their bodies would be dishonored among them when we sin When we take these gifts that God has given to us this life that he extends to us
33:06: When we realize that every breath of our mouth every beat of our heart is being extended to us by God And we take his gifts and use those gifts to rebel against him in utter foolishness
33:19: There's going to be a result These are impure actions. And so our bodies become dishonored
33:26: Amongst us when we use our bodies in a way that God has said not to We are dishonoring our bodies
33:33: For verse 25 they exchanged the truth of God for a lie
33:41: They exchanged the truth of God. It literally could be for the lie or in the lie is another literal rendering of Entosudai They exchanged the truth of God for a lie
33:56: And worshiped and served the creature or the created order
34:02: Rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen We are worshiping creatures.
34:07: We will worship something And so this twistedness
34:14: When we're not in the right relationship between creator and creature there is going to be a twistedness and so What should go to God now goes to the created order and the result is the dishonoring of our bodies and impurity
34:32: That is the context of verse 26 That is the context of verse 26 now
34:42: You'll hear a lot of people who will say well look homosexuality is like any other sin. It's like gluttony It's like anger
34:51: No, it's not In the sense that it's sin And therefore is subject to the wrath of God and can be repented of and Christ can redeem you from it.
35:02: Yes But in the next two verses
35:09: Right after he describes this twisting of the creator creation relationship
35:15: What is the first example he gives? Homosexuality and possibly in verse 26 the only reference
35:25: To lesbianism in the entire bible why?
35:31: because what it illustrates is a fundamental disordering Of the created nature of man.
35:39: What did Jesus say? He made them male and female You leave your father and your mother the man cleaves to his wife.
35:47: They're joined together. They become one flesh That's how God made us
35:53: And the only way to explain Acting upon same -sex attraction is this fundamental twisting of the creator creation relationship
36:05: For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions Now it's absolutely amazing if you get a chance
36:14: I have debated a number of people who promote homosexuality for a number of years now One of my debates was a man by the name of Barry Lynn.
36:22: Barry Lynn shows up on Fox News and MSNBC I'm, not sure if anybody watches MSNBC, but it shows up on on these cable news networks
36:31: He is the head of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State And he and I debated
36:38: Again, I think it was 2001 on the subject of homosexuality Interestingly enough two of the major debates i've done with leading figures he and Bishop John Shelby Spong On the same subject is homosexuality compatible with biblical
36:54: Christianity neither one of them brought a Bible to the debate Which just tells you something about the perspective they come from And Barry Lynn had to borrow my
37:03: Bible As we looked at this text And the debates on on YouTube the sounds not great, but the debates on YouTube We had to sue he tried to sue us
37:17: We sued him first we won and Got the right to distribute the debate. It's funny
37:22: Here's a man who had who had testified the child pornography is a guaranteed first amendment right before congress
37:29: And yet he then tried to turn around sue us to suppress the videotapes of the debate because he knew he lost so badly
37:35: And was so angry See freedom of speech is only for one side when you're an ultra leftist as he is
37:41: Anyway, even though he's allegedly a minister of the gospel But it's the united church of christ, which hasn't been a christian denomination for many many decades anyway, um
37:52: Listen To barry lynn try to get around that phrase degrading passions.
37:57: Mr. Lynn What's a degrading passion? I kept asking him It was sad to listen
38:05: We know that degrading passion is not a good thing. He was trying to say that paul's really not talking about about sins here
38:14: And you just go okay god gave them over to degrading passions
38:22: Is the greek passions of dishonor for even and I think it
38:31: I think it I take our I think could could substantiate the translation for even their women
38:39: Exchange the natural function for that which is unnatural or against nature even their women
38:50: Now, why would that be? Because the maternal instinct all through the bible is something that god praises
39:01: Think how many times? God even uses the idea of the nursing mother
39:07: The idea of the mother caring for the child as an illustration of his own care for his covenant people
39:14: It is a divine thing You think of the the near supernatural capacity
39:25: Of a woman to care for her child I mean I feel sorry for him.
39:32: I've told the story once more than once if you're a parent You had a couple of those nights with the newborn remember
39:41: I remember one My firstborn my son I don't know what he ate
39:48: And I don't know what the terminal pressure of that diaper was but it finally failed The explosion was epic almost nuclear
39:59: And we're awoken at two o 'clock in the morning and there is stuff
40:05: Not only all over the crib, but the wall behind the crib too And when you get up at two o 'clock in the morning,
40:14: I don't know what the capacity is I don't know that I would have it anymore at my age
40:23: But you know what you just do what you gotta do And my wife gets the bath going
40:30: And I pick up this dripping mess And that wasn't the diaper. That was the kid and I Take it in to mom
40:37: And mom begins the cleaning process And I begin the cleaning process too
40:43: You know what's left of the diaper and everything in the in the in the crib and you pull it out and you clean the wall
40:50: And you just do what you gotta do I don't know where that capacity comes from But it's your kid and you've got to do it.
40:59: It's just that I think that is one of the greatest ways God has ever designed to absolutely rip the selfishness right out of us
41:08: Is to put that little baby in our life who is the absolute epicenter of selfishness But you find a way to do it and you just that's just what parents being parents all about And some of you young people are going i'm not sure i'm really
41:24: I think i'll keep putting marriage off, you know I mean the average age now for a man to marry is 28
41:35: I was 19 And i'm glad I was I'm, really glad I was
41:43: I don't Get what's going on in the current generation. But anyway, anyway We go back to the text even they're women
41:51: There is no meaningful Way around what paul's saying here the revisionists will come up with all sorts of ways to try to get around this
42:02: They normally focus upon verse 27 i'll tell you what they say there but there is No reason
42:09: In the language in the culture in the background in jewish studies in any kind of studies
42:15: To avoid what's being spoken of here the first illustration that paul gives
42:20: Of how the twisting of the creator creation relationship results in a fundamental degradation of human relationships is lesbianism
42:30: Even women who desire those children. We all know about the biological clock
42:35: Well, i'm, sorry, you can't have children if you're having sexual relationships with another woman it doesn't work that way
42:45: And so there is a fundamental twisting of the natural Relationship they exchanged remember the terms look at see the term there
42:54: That's the exact same greek term that was used before that they exchanged The truth of god for a lie.
43:01: Here's an illustration The truth of god sexually for the woman is that another woman should not be the object of her sexual desire
43:09: So they've exchanged the truth of god, which is according to nature for a lie
43:16: Which is what same -sex Attraction is it's a lie. It can never fulfill
43:22: You can never be fulfilled by falling in love with a mirror image of yourself
43:29: That's not how god made us that's not how god made us For their women exchanged the natural function for that which is against nature para fusen
43:42: And then verse 27 and likewise The men
43:47: Abandoned the natural function of the woman And burn their desire toward one another
43:56: Men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error now clearly verse 27 is the
44:12: Central text for christians on this subject There can be no question about that I think first corinthians 6 9 through 11 is
44:20: Almost as important as we'll see in a little while But it's very very central
44:27: Let's look at first what it clearly says and then talk about all the ways that people have revised it
44:33: In the same way in other words just as there's no question about what verse 26 is talking about So for some and for some reason the vast majority of revisionist scholars
44:46: Separate these two and don't allow them to be one statement But it says it begins with homoios, which means in the same way likewise in the same way also
45:00: The men Abandoned the natural function
45:08: Now there simply isn't
45:14: In light of what was in the preceding verse Any way to avoid what we're talking about here the natural function of the woman there is biological created
45:24: Complementarianism between a male and a female But they abandon that They abandon that they have they abandon the natural function of the woman
45:38: And then notice what it says and burned In their desire toward one another now
45:47: The primary revisionist argument is this this is referring to in roman culture rich roman men
45:58: Who could buy young boys as slaves and engage in sex acts with them?
46:05: That's the primary argument that people have made You'll find it in almost all the books
46:11: Trying to get around this text Uh Barry Lynn tried that And you can get away with that on fox news
46:21: It's only gonna be a four and a half minute segment. No one's gonna ask you tough questions This is a formal debate.
46:26: There was something called cross -examination And I got to ask him questions
46:35: Mr. Lynn, could you explain please what it means burned in their desire? toward ice alelus toward one another
46:47: This is not one older man Desiring to have a boy toy
46:54: This is a mutual sexual desire between two men
47:01: There's no question of that You can't get around the language. That's what ice alelus means men with men arsonous and arson arson arson men with men
47:23: Not men with women not men with boys men with men Committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons to do penalty of their error.
47:35: There is nothing natural about homosexual relationships biologically speaking
47:43: And i'm not going to go into detail right now But homosexual especially male homosexual acts are damaging the physical body they are
47:55: Tremendous avenues of the of the distribution of many kinds of disease not just aids always have been
48:02: Ask any hospital in san francisco You can't talk about that in our culture anymore
48:08: If it was anything else you could if it was smoking it would be on billboards
48:16: But just look Just look at the studies that have been done in regards to The life expectancy of an active male homosexual in comparison to smoking
48:30: You can't even compare them You want you want to drop in life expectancy be an active male homosexual over 20 years
48:42: Average median death from active male homosexual 54 Can't talk about that though.
48:48: No, no, no, no There is an abandonment of the natural function which has been defined by god as creator and what is all of this in the context explaining to us the twisting of the creator creation relationship
49:11: There's where it has become twisted and the result is even the most natural element of how god has made us
49:22: Is impacted by this sin by the effect of sin
49:32: And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge god any longer god gave them over to a depraved mind to do those things
49:38: Which are not proper and then you have the vice list the huge number of human sins listed by the apostle paul with the final conclusion
49:54: Verse 32 and although they know the ordinance of god that those who practice such things are worthy of death
50:01: They not only do the same but also give hearty approval to those who practice them Here is the description of man and his sin
50:10: And what happens here is that in the next chapter he turns the tables the jews are going.
50:15: Yeah, those are those gentiles Yeah, you get them paul and he turns around says you do the same thing as in your heart So that he can conclude in chapter three god brings everybody jew and gentile before him they are convicted of their sin
50:28: Their mouth is closed. No more self -righteousness and the person who comes before god and recognizes his guilt
50:34: That's the person that's ready to hear the message of the gospel But what we have today is an entire movement that tries to rip that text out and say
50:46: I hear the gospel too But they only hear a part of it because they will not accept
50:53: God's verdict that what they desire and what they act on in their life Is against his created purpose
51:06: And so what you'll hear them saying is well, this is only about idolatry. I'm not an idolater. I love god There were many people in that day
51:15: They claimed to love the various gods they worshipped This isn't talking about me
51:24: Well saying it isn't talking about you when it describes your activities and your behaviors Is nothing more than denial.
51:31: It's not an argument And do you see the consistency with what paul is saying?
51:39: Not only with what jesus says positively in matthew chapter 19 But also with what we saw in leviticus, is there any question
51:51: That when paul says what he says in verses 26 through 27 in the background of his mind
51:57: Is leviticus 18 and 20? There can't be any There is nothing in the context nothing in the culture of the day nothing in the jewish beliefs of the day
52:05: They would even begin to suggest that And yet that's what you have people saying today
52:12: All right, keep that in mind and let's turn over to first corinthians chapter 6 Because time is unfortunately not our friend here
52:23: First corinthians chapter 6 Paul says beginning in verse 9 or do you not know?
52:30: That the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of god Do not be deceived neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers
52:41: And then here's the key text new american standard says nor effeminate nor homosexuals now
52:47: Up on the screen you will see Underlined in purple right before the the the number 10 in the greek
53:01: If you have the english standard version
53:09: Instead of saying nor effeminate nor homosexuals. It will simply say nor adulterers nor Homosexuals or I think men who practice homosexuality.
53:19: Is that what it says in the esv men who practice homosexuality? Okay What they're doing in the esv
53:27: Is they're recognizing something about these two terms? Malakoi is the passive Partner in a homosexual sex act it literally means soft or effeminate
53:44: It's the one who takes the female role. You can't avoid that and then arsenic
53:53: Is the active role and so the esv is taking these two terms and saying paul recognizes the two roles, and so we're simply saying men who engage in homosexuality and so they translate in that way and that is a very
54:13: Defensible translation, but here's what here's what happens. You will find some of the most amazing abuse of scholarship
54:23: When it comes the meaning of the word arsenicoytai the plural arsenicoytai is the singular it angers me
54:34: As one who has taught both greek and hebrew at the seminary level to see professors
54:43: Of seminaries Abusing their knowledge of the language
54:51: Not to enlighten and clarify but to confuse and fundamentally to pervert normally when we look at a term such as Is found here arsenicoytai the plural arsenicoytai
55:09: Normally what we would do What we do as scholars is we would look at the literature
55:17: That existed in that day to see if this was a term That was used by non -biblical writers
55:26: So years ago when I was working on my first doctorate We got hold of what was called the the thesaurus lingua grecae the tlg cd -rom now.
55:35: They don't have that anymore now. It's a Online thing, but it's a basically a a database of of all ancient greek literature fully searchable
55:44: So you can you can do a search and you can say I want to see who used this particular phrase and you can put in a date range
55:52: You know 200 years before my author and 200 years after my author and everything be right there in front of you
55:59: In greek, of course, but it'll be right there in front of you when you look at this term there there is
56:07: One possible use before paul, but most people feel that the dating on that is later and so Paul seems to be the first one that uses it.
56:19: Well, did paul actually coin words? Yes, he did He did because he was communicating with a primarily greek audience
56:31: But he's preaching from a text that was originally written in something other than greek And so to explain and i'm referring to the old testament there, of course the hebrew scriptures so to explain things
56:48: He would coin phrases coin words and as I mentioned last evening
56:54: The primary source he uses of that is the greek translation of the old testament called the greek septuagint
57:01: And any serious scholar who is actually just looking for the meaning of the word and doesn't have some other you know
57:08: I mean there are scholars who for example are writing on this because their offspring have come out and said they're gay and all of a sudden they completely change their viewpoint
57:17: And write books about it And I think that makes them very suspect as being fair in their scholarship
57:26: But what real scholarship does is you Always when looking at paul
57:33: You ask how is paul being influenced? By the language of the greek septuagint
57:39: And that's why I pointed out to you last night. In fact, I still had on my screen When we looked at leviticus 18 the same thing as leviticus 20
57:50: The terms arsenos and coitain Appear in the text of leviticus in the greek septuagint
58:00: Those are two words that have been put together into one word which we have right here arsenic
58:06: So what's the background of paul's very description?
58:14: Of homosexuality in first corinthians, and this is the same term We're not going to go to first timothy, but it appears there as well.
58:21: That makes the third one The big debate is over what this word means fair scholarship would say
58:31: Well, we don't need to be chasing this term around in the centuries after paul
58:38: And finding some obscure use over there or some obscure use over there because that's not where paul got it
58:44: Paul got it from levitical law From the very same words that said to eva abomination
58:56: That's where he got it That's where he got it and he says do not be deceived
59:04: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor both partners in the homosexual sex act
59:11: Nor thieves nor the covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of god
59:19: Don't be deceived a lot of people ignoring that today, but the next four words in greek
59:32: That begin verse 11 May be some of the most important That we will look at And such were some of you
59:54: It's an imperfect it's past tense refers to continuous action in the past generally
01:00:03: And so it's describing their lifestyle that's the way you were it does not say are
01:00:13: There are no manuscripts that say are There are no manuscripts that have a present tense i've looked such were
01:00:25: Some of you but what's the next phrase? but You were washed that's the adversative use of allah, but There's been a change
01:00:39: A radical Reorientation you were washed you were made holy you were sanctified
01:00:47: You were justified in the name of the lord. Jesus christ in the spirit of our god my friends
01:00:57: Two things first of all first corinthians 6 11
01:01:04: Is the very basis of the hope That we can offer to the individual who experiences same -sex attraction
01:01:13: I cannot help the person Who refuses to listen to what god says about what is sin and what is not?
01:01:23: I believe that the very first evidence Of the work of the spirit of god in a person's life is that they will be submissive to the word of god
01:01:33: And so when I encounter a person who simply will not listen to what god's word is saying
01:01:39: I can't help that person. I can make sure they know the truth, but I can't help that person But when you have a person who says
01:01:45: I hear I understand believe me i've been in the lifestyle and I know
01:01:51: When you read the studies the serious studies that have been done The average male homosexual has so many partners
01:02:03: Many of them reporting over 500 Partners it is an empty life.
01:02:11: It is not life. It's living death And you are showing them no love at all by going.
01:02:20: Well, it's just the way god made you That's a lie And so when
01:02:25: I see that the spirit of god is active in a person's life And they're not saying I demand that you affirm me and celebrate me
01:02:35: Instead you have the maturity that comes from the spirit of god in their life Then this text gives hope such were some of you
01:02:49: But you were washed but you were made holy, but you were justified, but I still have the desires
01:02:57: In some people god removes the desires i've talked to them
01:03:03: Some he does not but you know what i've talked to people
01:03:11: Who've come to christ and christ has removed their anger Some others they live the rest of their life
01:03:19: Always having to submit themselves to the spirit of god to resist those desires that are there and they come to know depth of relationship with god because of that so there is hope here
01:03:41: To anyone who experiences same -sex attraction paul says such were some of you there were former homosexuals
01:03:51: In the church at corinth, but what you must understand is that this movement in our society
01:04:00: Is saying to every single one of us every single day you cannot believe the fourth word
01:04:09: Of first corinthians 6 11 you must reject it You must change it to the present tense
01:04:17: From the past tense that was written 2 000 years ago That's what our society is saying to us
01:04:23: That's what our employers are saying to us That's what our judges are saying to us and they're saying to us you're on the wrong side of history
01:04:30: If you recognize that as a past tense rather than a present tense We are being told we must abandon the lordship of christ this point his word
01:04:47: Tells us Such were Not such are that's what the text says.
01:04:56: There's no question about it one of the reasons we struggle to get people to debate this issue is because Most of them who are writing these books know
01:05:08: They know That they sat down on this stage with a moderator and a time clock
01:05:16: And a knowledgeable opponent They could never defend what they're saying They want monologues not dialogues
01:05:25: And our society is more than happy To give them that our society is very happy with that.
01:05:37: Here's the argument that matthew vines Is now putting forward the church has hurt gay christians
01:05:49: Because the church has told us that the only option for us is lifelong celibacy
01:05:55: Lifelong celibacy is only given to certain people It is a gift from god it cannot be demanded
01:06:02: And so if I have not been given the gift of celibacy to say I must be celibate Is wrong and hurtful
01:06:12: It's not life affirming And we know that god's truth Always does the best for people.
01:06:20: It doesn't hurt people. So therefore since we've been hurt that can't be god's truth There's the argument.
01:06:29: How do you respond to it? You need to think through for yourself
01:06:36: How you would respond to that on any logical level it is filled with holes
01:06:47: But because it appeals to the sentimentality of our culture
01:06:54: It's very effective Our culture has become sentimental Instead of doing what's right
01:07:02: We do what feels good Even if the result is disastrous And so you start off by saying well
01:07:12: God's truth never hurts anybody really Homosexuals are really hurt by what paul wrote in first corinthians 6 9 and 10
01:07:23: So are a bunch of other folks such as uh drunkards Let's use drunkards
01:07:33: A drunkard can say What paul said there hurts me And the church has hurt me
01:07:39: And this is how god made me and he hasn't given me the gift of sobriety And therefore it cannot possibly be the case that the bible says not to be drunk
01:07:49: And so it must mean something else it must have had something to do Only with the religious practices of the day where they abused alcohol not what
01:07:57: I do That works How about the covetous?
01:08:03: That was there too right after drunkards covetous nor the covetous. I'm sorry before sorry. So the covetous
01:08:11: You've hurt me I desire The things of this world
01:08:19: And god made me that way And god's given me the ability to get those things
01:08:27: And if you say that that's wrong, then you're hurting me and the fundamental belief is that that well god's truth won't hurt anybody
01:08:34: It always affirms people and god has not given me a lifelong ability to not be covetous
01:08:40: I mean, it's up to god to give me that ability. He didn't give me that ability and therefore I should be able to exercise my
01:08:46: Covetousness that covetousness just had to do with the roman emperors or something like that. You can always find a way around anything in our day, though, we've got
01:09:00: Some sad clear examples of where this is going You and I both know that unless god grants repentance
01:09:08: I would say within 12 months At the outside 36 Polygamy will be legal in the united states of america and it will be a polygamy not of one man and multiple wives
01:09:25: But of one wife and multiple men multiple women and multiple men Which means marriage will have no meaning any longer at all, which is what they want.
01:09:36: It's going to happen Unless god grants repentance, it's going to happen. We all know it so You have the
01:09:48: Sexual perversion involved in multiple partners But did you see a legislator just a week and a half ago identified pedophilia
01:10:02: As a sexual orientation There's already the papers being written by the psychologists and the psychiatrists
01:10:11: Saying that intergenerational love that's the new term Intergenerational love
01:10:18: Is simply a sexual orientation and if sexual orientations are just the way we are Then we're being bigoted
01:10:25: To say there's something wrong with that Then we also have interfamilial love
01:10:35: Incestuous relationships We have a grandson and his grandmother in the united kingdom
01:10:43: We have a couple in germany A brother and a sister they got married not knowing they were brother and sister well, okay, that's a mistake, but Now they're fighting to stay married to overthrow the laws against incest
01:11:00: We have two brothers Who want to be married now from the world's perspective given what matthew vines argues
01:11:10: Given what justin lee argues given what this entire worldview presents What's the argument against two brothers getting married if they love each other why not now you and I just go oh
01:11:27: But that's not an argument is it? We go uh because we understand god's created order
01:11:35: We still have a semblance of morality left within us But our society is overthrowing it at an amazing speed my friend
01:11:45: And I say to you they have absolutely no argument when you listen to them It's amazing.
01:11:51: I've I listen to these debates if i'm not participating in them. I listen to them And I remember one christian united kingdom on a on a on a
01:12:00: Television program the same television program. I was on a couple weeks later actually over in uh, actually it records in malaga spain on revelation tv
01:12:09: A christian asked a homosexual Why shouldn't? Two brothers get married his answer was
01:12:19: Utterly incoherent It was utterly incoherent. It made not a lick of sense and basically came down to I don't like that Well, thank you very much
01:12:29: All you've just demonstrated is that as long as it helps you out you'll like an argument But if it then points something you don't like then you don't like the argument, which means that you're irrational incest
01:12:45: There's an entire group of people pushing to repeal the laws against bestiality in germany
01:12:53: There's a woman in the united kingdom who loves the statue of liberty Her house is filled
01:13:00: With The statue of liberty, why shouldn't she be allowed to marry the statue of liberty?
01:13:09: Because marriage doesn't mean anything anymore. It's just a relationship So why not
01:13:17: So why not? Once you redefine it Once you take away its core defining element of heterosexuality
01:13:26: There's nothing left of it to defend They all say well, it's not going to impact you Really?
01:13:32: Have you looked at europe? Have you looked at the the carnage? That has been wreaked in the cultures of europe because of this when matthew vines says
01:13:51: I Haven't been given the gift of celibacy. What he's saying is god hasn't given me the gift to not
01:13:57: Engage in an activity that he identifies as a perversion of human sexuality
01:14:04: That's the real issue And he doesn't want to deal with that.
01:14:09: He just dismisses the levitical passages. It's a that's why he won't debate because he knows
01:14:15: That his position is indefensible indefensible But what did
01:14:21: I say As we started this evening I wanted to finish By emphasizing something to you.
01:14:31: This is a gospel issue. This is an issue about the very ability
01:14:39: Of the christian church to identify The christian message itself
01:14:49: If we can look at this list fornicators Well We don't really know what fornicators are oh we do but From this perspective once once you accept this hermeneutic this hermeneutic of doubt this hermeneutic of exception
01:15:10: What really is idolatry? Adultery, I mean, we don't really know what marriage is.
01:15:16: So how can you be unfaithful to it? Homosexuality while we seem thievery,
01:15:22: I mean Do we really ever really own anything? I mean See once we can no longer identify sin
01:15:34: We can no longer proclaim the necessity of a savior the central aspect of the christian message is that to be
01:15:44: In relationship with god requires dealing with man's sin and god has active acted decisively and exclusively in jesus christ
01:15:55: To bring about the way of peace with himself. There is no other name given among among men
01:16:00: There is no other way of having peace with god other than through the sacrifice of jesus christ upon the cross of calvary
01:16:08: But why did jesus christ have to die because we needed a righteousness that would avail before a holy and just god
01:16:16: Why because we're unjust Well who says we're unjust? god's law
01:16:23: But we've just seen numerous examples of this movement doing everything its power to turn god's law into god's
01:16:32: Confusing suggestions and nothing more. This is a gospel issue
01:16:43: We are being asked To deny the lordship of jesus christ
01:16:52: In our lives and the lordship of jesus christ over all of humanity
01:17:00: And we need to start stating the case in those terms I know if I ever had the opportunity and they don't call me
01:17:08: To go on those programs, but if I ever had the opportunity And someone started off one of my first statements would be why are you why are you demanding that I deny?
01:17:18: That jesus christ is lord of all And I can just see that what? And then
01:17:24: I'd explain exactly why and how they're doing that We're always on the defensive I think it's time to be on the offensive not to be offensive for the sake of being offensive
01:17:37: But to stop allowing them to define the terms of the debate Our god defined the terms of debate a long time ago
01:17:44: When he established marriage when he created man as male and female. This is a gospel issue my friends
01:17:52: We don't have the option of compromising on this The tsunami of compromise is coming and all that's going to do
01:18:00: Is demonstrate how much fake christianity there's been our land for a long time anyways But I hope you understand why i'm saying that I hope you can see there's no way around it
01:18:13: This is what the scriptures say God calls us to believe what he has said and in reality my friends
01:18:22: No one is showing the homosexual community whatever that is true love in these liberal churches
01:18:31: Who are collapsing on the gospel and denying to them the only message that could ever give them life
01:18:39: That's not love. That's hatred and I won't join
01:18:44: In that kind of hate mongering Because that's what it is Let's close our time lord of prayer our merciful yet.
01:18:57: Holy loving god We thank you for the clarity it gives us the light that it gives us
01:19:06: We understand how you have made us and we are to honor you in our bodies Lord, we live in a land where darkness is descending that Even our fathers and grandfathers could not see coming
01:19:24: Not with this rapidity and lord we need wisdom We need wisdom and strength
01:19:30: To know how to respond to know how to speak How to be salt and light
01:19:38: And so lord for all those here this evening for those Listening who have viewed this
01:19:45: I would pray that you would give strength you would give grace That we would not compromise but that we would always speak as sinners saved by grace
01:19:57: Recognizing that it is loving Always loving to speak god's truth.
01:20:05: And so father We thank you for the freedom. We've had at this time to speak these things.
01:20:10: We don't know how long we'll have this freedom There may come a time in the very near future where even the recordings of this kind of presentation this presentation itself
01:20:23: Will be ruled hate speech By those who are the true purveyors of hate
01:20:30: Because they don't know you protect us from the very ministers of death