August 2, 2017 Show with Tony Costa on “Rome’s Anathemas Against Protestants”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all happy Wednesday on this second day of August 2017 and we have a packed house today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with one guest and two co-hosts and I am excited to have returning to the program my friend Dr. Tony Costa.

Dr. Tony Costa is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary and he is going to be speaking at a couple of events on Long Island, New York, my old stomping grounds and it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Tony Costa.

Yes Chris. I am as well and coming again as a co-host, a second co-host today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is my old friend Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York.

It's great to have you back on the program again Pastor Rich. Good to be here again Chris. And in studio with me is my regular co-host the Reverend Buzz Taylor. And it's good to be here. Now let's turn my mic up again.

Now I'm really here. Well it's great to have all of you and we are discussing a very important theme today. We're talking about Rome's anathemas against Protestants and the reason why this is so important, a lot of people don't think it is important because they are living under the delusion and this would be both ecumenically minded Roman Catholics and Protestants are living under the delusion that the anathemas that Rome pronounced against Protestants and their heirs and anyone who agreed with them on the essentials of the gospel, they have pronounced curses or anathemas against us at the Council of Trent in the 16th century and this council took place between 1545 and 1563 and they believe that these anathemas are merely relics of the past that they are not relevant to today.

Therefore we can have a wonderful warm and loving fellowship as brothers in Christ with our Roman Catholic friends. Well our guest today Dr. Tony Costa will seek to demonstrate how that is a falsehood, it's a dangerous falsehood.

The Roman Catholic Church's anathemas are dogmatically binding for all the faithful Catholics throughout the centuries so therefore any attempts at ecumenism between both those who are faithful heirs to the Protestant Reformation and the Church of Rome, it is an impossibility that this kind of an ecumenism is an impossibility because as the Council of Trent, as the Roman Catholic Council of Trent has declared, we who are faithful Protestants in regard to the gospel preached during the Reformation, we have another gospel, that is the Church of Rome stating unequivocally that we have another gospel than they have so therefore obviously there are two different gospels in question here.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Tony Costa regarding the anathemas of the Council of Trent our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

I'm assuming that if some of you perhaps are Roman Catholic and perhaps you are questioning your own religion you don't want to be identified. I understand that kind of a situation might compel you to remain anonymous and we will grant you your request but please if it's not about a personal and private matter we ask that you give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

Before we even go into the subject at hand Rome's anathemas against Protestants Dr. Costa let our listeners know something about Toronto Baptist Seminary where you serve on the faculty as professor of apologetics and Islam.

Yes Toronto.

Baptist Seminary is great and for any of you interested in investigating more about Toronto.

Baptist Seminary the website is tbs toronto baptist seminary tbs .edu and now Pastor Rich Jensen. For those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford Long Island why don't you let our listeners know about this congregation.

Yeah we're a congregation.

Located in Medford which is right about the center of. We've been years now we were a church.

Plant. Wow. The reason I'm saying wow is because I remember when you I remember when your church was planted. I was a member of the church as you know Grace Reform Baptist Church of of Long Island that helped get that church plant started and it's just seems like you know it seems like a year.

Ago to me. I know it's it trust me it seems like that to me too except when I look in the mirror then I then I realize how long. 1989 we hold to the 1689 London Baptist families. Young should do a lot of fun and trying to give in to women not to have abortions but.

Amen. Well for more.

Information on Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island if anybody either lives in Medford or have loved ones who live in the Medford Long Island area or you plan to visit there the website is hopereformedli .net hopereformedli standing for longisland .net so you can look that up and find out more about that congregation and we are going to be also promoting throughout this broadcast a couple of very special events that are taking place on Long Island.

One of them at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford Long Island but another one as well prior to that featuring our guest today Dr. Tony Costa. First the Word of Truth Church and the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship are presenting a conference called the Gospel of the Reformation to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation and the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville Long Island is located on 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville and the speakers include Dr. Tony Costa as I just mentioned also Pastor Caleb Bunch Pastor Bruce Bennett and Pastor Dave Corson.

And if you would like to register for that event go to or should I say call area code 631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614 and ask for Pastor Bruce Bennett and you can find out all the information that you need in regard to that conference if you just need directions and so on you can also go to the website wotchurch .com wot standing for word of truth church .com.

And this conference by the way is being held over a two-day period. It's being held starting on Friday September 29th and then it is concluding on Saturday September 30th and once again call 631 -806 -0614.

And on Sunday Pastor or Dr. Costa I should say will be speaking at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island if you could Pastor Rich Jensen. If you could not only tell us about what that event will be like and what specifically Dr. Costa will be speaking on and also tell us about the Spurgeon Fellowship that has cooperated with Word of Truth Church and Hope Reform Baptist.

Church on these events. Okay well part of that's a little Dr. Costa and I have not had an opportunity to speak yet about his topic so okay he and I will be talking about what topic but I'm sure it'll be a follow-up to the conference because Hope is involved in the about that the Spurgeon Fellowship is about two years old now it's and it's made up of pastors Calvinistic many of us are fully reformed and who are concerned about seeing that the gospel is being preached know that the doctrines of being of the gospel and so we're we have gathered together we meet about it and also to plan events.

And Dr. Costa is going to be preaching at the morning service at Hope Reform Baptist correct? That's correct yes. And is that at 11 a .m? That's at 11 a .m and right at our facility at 3239. Right and again the website for more details on the location and other matters.

Go to hopereformedli .net. Well this subject is a subject that stirs up a lot of controversy. Uh there is uh really no controversy when it comes to those who are either more to the right of traditional Roman Catholicism they basically tell it like it is they don't mix words about uh the fact that Protestants are under the curse of God and and they're according to their dogma uh and of course you have folks that are on this program today that would very clearly recognize unequivocally that the Church of Rome has pronounced curses upon us that are still binding in the 21st century as far as a Roman Catholic is concerned if if that Roman Catholic were to be faithful to the Church of Rome.

The controversy lies within that group of people who are ecumenically minded on both sides of the issue both Catholics and Protestants who have softened the blow in regard to these anathemas and basically have acted as if these anathemas uh do not have any weight today even though the most liberal pope in the history of the Roman Catholic Church has not overturned them or recanted them.

Interesting very interesting point but I'm going to read just a handful of these anathemas to get give you a picture of some of what the Rome some of what the Church of Rome has declared curses upon the Protestant reform reformers and their heirs.

Why they have declared these anathemas. Uh and for what reason we have uh. If anyone shall say that by faith alone the impious is justified so as to mean that nothing else is required to cooperate in order unto the obtaining the grace of justification and that it is not in any respect necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the righteousness of Christ or by the sole remission of sins to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and is inherent in them or even that the grace by which we are justified is only the favor of God let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that justifying faith is not else but confidence in the divine mercy which merits sins I'm sorry which remits sins for Christ's sake. Or that in this confidence alone by which we are justified let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that he will for certain of an absolute and infallible certainty have that great gift of perseverance unto the end unless we have learnt this by a special revelation let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that the grace of justification only befalleth those who are predestined unto eternal life but that all others who are called are called indeed but received not grace as being the divine power predestined unto evil let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man that is justified and cons cons constituted in grace impossible to keep let him be anathema. If anyone shall say that the justice received is not preserved and also increased in the sight of God through good works but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of justification received not a cause of the increase thereof let him be anathema.

And I could spend the rest of the 90 minutes reading these anathemas. But this is very clear language. Is it not Dr. Tony Costa that the Council of Trent which was gathered in the 16th century between 1545 and 1563 in a direct response to the Protestant Reformation this is clearly pronouncing.

Curses upon the reformers and all that agree with them on the gospel. Is it not. Yes yes.

And uh Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question or comment just for the sake of our listeners.

Before we get too far into the conversation. Uh because they might not know. Uh could you.

Define exactly what they mean by the term anathema. Yeah that's that's the that's the pivotal issue that regards whether or not an ecumenist can rightly say oh that's really not a very big deal. Uh in fact I've heard a different spin on that than the than the authors originally.

Intended. But if you could uh define that for us the word anathema is that uh during a gospel this is the irony. This is an anathema. That's right word. Anathema is the strongest word to be under the divine making agreement.

And we're yes. And uh the the spin that I have heard from.

Some of the more moderate Roman Catholics moderate to liberal Roman Catholics uh who are prone to be ecumenists uh I have heard them say that a couple of things. Number one that the anathema really meant that you could not be a member in good standing of the Roman Catholic Church it had nothing to do with a pronouncement that you were damned.

And I've also heard that the anathemas are not dogmatic only the teachings that are involved uh that are being protected by Trent which to me seems absurd since the the canons begin with the words if with the word if most of them anyway um and so therefore the the connected anathema seems to be an essential part of that.

But if you could uh uh respond to those those defenses of ecumenism.

In spite of the anathemas. Yeah. And then we could also if you're not subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Well then and this this whole concept that the the modern Roman Catholic who is ecumenist I've heard them say things like why are you going back to the 16th century. Lots lots happened. Since then we've even seen a Catholic Lutheran accord on justification occur.

Uh isn't that really a nonsense. Nonsensical argument. Because that is not even in any way binding on either Catholics or Protestants. In fact I know of no one uh and I'm not to say that there isn't someone who is from a conservative Lutheran background who is involved in that.

But I don't know of any and every Missouri synod Lutheran or Wisconsin synod Lutheran or more conservative Lutheran that I have asked about that accord. They said that that is it's a farce that that is not uh in any way uh the unanimous consent of Lutheranism worldwide especially those that are confessionally faithful to Lutheranism.

So isn't this really just a nonsensical argument in regard to the centuries that have passed or the Lutheran Catholic accord on justification.

Yes absolutely yes. And and Roman Catholics though deny that they are semi-Pelagianists.

Uh because they will use the um escape door. Uh by saying that grace is necessary for everything doesn't that at some point really become it robs grace of its very meaning. I mean because it's grace that gives you enough ability to to actually merit salvation isn't it.

Exactly the apostle Paul would have agreed enough and I just want to make it clear for our listeners.

Uh who may have not really uh had this sink in uh to their minds and their memories. Uh lest you think that those of us who believe that works are absolutely necessary and essential as an evidence of saving faith.

As Jesus said himself a good tree bears good fruit. Uh and unless you think that those people who do insist that works are a necessary product of one genuinely genuinely saved uh let me read to you again canon 24.

If anyone shall say that the justice received is not preserved and also increased in the sight of God through good works but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of justification received but not a cause of the increase thereof let him be anathema.

So even those who say that works are essential in regard to salvation but not as an agent or a cause but only as an evidence even they meaning we are under the curse of Rome it's not just those who believe in easy believism or cheap grace or repentant less Christianity.

This is even those who are historically Calvinist who believe in the perseverance and preservation of the saints who believe that good works are a necessary element of salvation but just as a as an evidence right.

Right absolutely. Um are you asking me i'm not sure. Yes i was dr costa. Yes yes uh yes. You're absolutely right. And it's also a factor here is that is it non-christ. Right. And uh by the way.

We're going to be going to a break right now and pastor rich jensen when we return. If you'd like to ask a question of dr costa as well since i cannot see you you cannot make hand gestures or give me facial expressions.

I have no idea when you're ready or desirous of asking a question.

So if you'd like to when we return. Faces at you right now. I'm sorry i said i'm making faces at.

You right now i hope you're not making hand gestures but anyway we're gonna. We're gonna start with you asking a question of dr costa when we return from the break. And if anybody else would like to join us our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away god willing we'll be right back. After these messages with dr tony costa and rome's anathemas against protestants i am chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective.

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Now we're really back sorry for the false start. Just a little while ago we are back to our discussion with dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary and today i have two co-hosts the reverend buzz taylor and also pastor rich jensen of hope reform baptist church of medford long island new york.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com. Chris arnson at gmail .com and pastor.

Rich jensen do you have a question for dr tony costa. Yes or former. And one of those things would be the topic for today what is and then apply. Do you have any suggestions for people you know who have roman catholic relatives etc on the importance of explaining to them what the anathemas are what that means and and then the wide gulf that rome puts be nominal roman catholic.

What i would. The bible uses that word anathema it does it anathema you would find in south.

Doesn't it all uh really go back to salvation by works no matter how much the church of rome peppers their language with the necessity of grace. They declared that palladianism was heresy but at the same time when you have reached a point when atheists unrepentant atheists can go to the grave and may be looking at the smile of jesus with open arms uh welcoming that person into heaven it really becomes.

All of these anathemas and ceremonial rights. It seems to be nonsensical i don't even know. They're speaking out of both sides of their mouths. Which is actually why you have divisions. Sharp divisions in the church of rome to the point of even having sate of vacantists who believe that the popes since vatican ii could not even be really legitimate because of the fact that they the state of vacantists which means the chair of peter is vacant.

Uh they they recognize that this is not historic roman catholicism so isn't this.

This is really a mind-boggling phenomena isn't it for the monolithic church of rome. Keep unanimity among roman catholics. Oh god what are they praying to their navels. And then we might have judged uh if a man loves a man and a woman loves a woman and they want to live together.

Yeah. Well the uh modern roman day the modern day roman catholic apologists and perhaps.

This quote has some uh place in history that i'm unaware of but i've heard modern day roman catholics use the phrase that sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy. And the thing that is really absurd when you think of it is that the roman catholic apologists will say that we are susceptible to anarchy and confusion and division because of the fact that we do not have an infallible interpreter to guide us through the scriptures so that we can rightly understand them.

The problem is they don't have an infallible interpreter. For their infallible interpreter they're really in the same boat as they claim we're in aren't they.

Yeah i absolutely kept the history of the roman catholic. Now i don't know if uh you would agree.

With uh my experience but for i was raised roman catholic i was uh walter boy as well. I was uh uh educated in a parochial roman catholic school for eight years of my life and i have learned much more about roman catholicism after having become born again and being a bible believing protestant.

But i have uh in my uh last several decades of life as a christian have encountered far more division and disagreement that is under the umbrella of the alleged monolith of roman catholicism than i have encountered amongst conservative bible believing evangelicals.

And of course i'm not including in that liberals that claim to be christian because we who are believing cross christians by and large would consider them apostate and not even a part of the the body of christ.

So as far as the claim that we have anarchy is isn't it uh really a pot calling the kettle black if you will. Because of the fact that there is so much division by those who claim to be roman catholic and who have not been censored excommunicated disciplined even if very well known and writing books and so on and teaching in schools and seminaries university.

Fraternity and academic institutions. There are a lot of folks at the colleges. Yes and uh the fact.

That the roman catholic church also believes that uh even a priest that they would deem to be an apostate or heretic even that priest they believe carries his priestly powers to the grave. In other words he can consecrate a host and bring about the so-called miracle of transubstantiation.

My friend richard bennett former roman catholic priest and now a reformed baptist he's been a reformed baptist for decades. They believe he even can uh consecrate a host and bring about the miracle of transubstantiation even though he speaks against rome vociferously and denounces.

It as a heretical yeah an apostate organization. That's because that's because of that instantiate.

Bread enterprise yes. And uh we are going to another break. This is going to be an elongated break to accommodate uh grace life radio 90 90 .1 fm in lake city florida. They require a 12-minute break between our two segments.

So uh if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own uh please join us at chris arnzen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. And please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

And pastor rich jensen. Again when we return i will give you the floor to ask a question of dr costa since i cannot see you. So uh have a have a question ready and god willing we will be right back after these messages.

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Needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is chris arnzen. Before i return to our discussion with dr tony costa on the theme rome's anathemas against protestants i have some important events to promote being orchestrated by some of our sponsors.

First of all starting tomorrow through the 5th of august the fellowship conference new england is being held at the deering center community church in portland maine. Speakers include don curran of heart cry missionary society the organization founded by paul washer my dear friend pastor mac tomlinson who is an author and pastor at providence chapel in denton texas pastor jesse barrington who's also been on this program pastor of grace life church in dallas texas the sister church of grace life radio or should i say grace church in lake city florida that operates grace life radio which airs iron sharpens iron radio twice a day in a pre-recorded format one time a day in prime morning drive time pastor nate pickowitz who we've also had on this program he is the author of reviving new england and why we're protestant and he is the pastor of the harvest bible church in gilminton ironworks new hampshire.

If you'd like to register before this conference which begins tomorrow go to fellowship conference new england .com fellowship conference new england .com. And then uh coming up at the end of september uh the event that we have been announcing uh from time to time during this broadcast and that is the gospel of the reformation 500th anniversary at the word of truth church in farmingville long island new york which they are conducting in cooperation with long island spurgeon.

Fellowship speakers include our guest today dr tony costa of toronto baptist seminary and also pastor kayla bunch and pastor bruce bennett and pastor dave course. And if you would like to attend this conference call 631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614.

And you can also get more details on the location of the word of truth church in farmingville long island new york by going to wot church .com wot which stands for word of truth church .com wot church .com.

And then on that sunday that weekend dr tony costa will be speaking at hope reform baptist church of long island the congregation pastored by one of our co-hosts today pastor rich jensen that will be at the 11 a .m service at hope reform baptist church 3239 route 112 suite 1 in medford long island new york.

For more details call 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711. And you can also go to hope reformed li .net hope reformed li .net. Then in november the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their quaker town conference on reform theology and god willing i will be there with a with an iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.