August 2, 2017 Show with Tony Costa on “Rome’s Anathemas Against Protestants”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this second day of August 2017, and we have a packed house today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with one guest and two co -hosts, and I am excited to have returning to the program my friend

Dr. Tony Costa. Dr. Tony Costa is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and he is going to be speaking at a couple of events on Long Island, New York, my old stomping grounds, and it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr.

Tony Costa. Yes, Chris, it's always a pleasure to be with you. I'm looking forward to a great show.

I am as well, and coming again as a co -host, a second co -host today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is my old friend

Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York. It's great to have you back on the program again,

Pastor Rich. Good to be here again, Chris. And in studio with me is my regular co -host, the

Reverend Buzz Taylor. And it's good to be here. Now he's turned my mic up again. Now I'm really here.

Well, it's great to have all of you, and we are discussing a very important theme today. We're talking about Rome's anathemas against Protestants, and the reason why this is so important, a lot of people don't think it is important, because they are living under the delusion, and this would be both ecumenically minded

Roman Catholics and Protestants are living under the delusion, that the anathemas that Rome pronounced against Protestants and their heirs, and anyone who agreed with them on the essentials of the gospel, they had pronounced curses or anathemas against us at the

Council of Trent in the 16th century, and this Council took place between 1545 and 1563, and they believe that these anathemas are merely relics of the past, that they are not relevant to today, therefore we can have a wonderful, warm, and loving fellowship as brothers in Christ with our

Roman Catholic friends. Well, our guest today, Dr. Tony Costa, will seek to demonstrate how that is a falsehood, it's a dangerous falsehood.

The Roman Catholic Church's anathemas are dogmatically binding for all the faithful Catholics throughout the centuries, so therefore any attempts at ecumenism between both those who are faithful heirs to the

Protestant Reformation and the Church of Rome, it is an impossibility, this kind of an ecumenism is an impossibility, because as the

Council of Trent, as the Roman Catholic Council of Trent has declared, we who are faithful Protestants in regard to the gospel preached during the

Reformation, we have another gospel, that is the Church of Rome, stating unequivocally that we have another gospel than they have, so therefore obviously there are two different gospels in question here.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Tony Costa regarding the anathemas of the

Council of Trent, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. I'm assuming that if some of you perhaps are

Roman Catholic and perhaps you are questioning your own religion, you don't want to be identified,

I understand that kind of a situation might compel you to remain anonymous, and we will grant you your request, but please if it's not about a personal and private matter, we ask that you give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Before we even go into the subject at hand, Rome's anathemas against Protestants, Dr.

Costa, let our listeners know something about Toronto Baptist Seminary, where you serve on the faculty as professor of apologetics and Islam.

Yes, Toronto Baptist Seminary is a reformed Baptist seminary and it has been around since the 1930s.

It was founded by T .T. Shields, Dr. T .T. Shields, who was also the pastor of the

Jarvis Street Baptist Church, one of the oldest Baptist churches in Toronto, and we teach students, not only

Canadian students, but we have students that come from the United States, we've had students as far away as South Korea, and even from Malawi in Africa, we've had many international students, and so the motto of our seminary is

Kata Christon, which in Greek means according to Christ. It is a biblically -centered,

Christ -centered seminary. We do not receive any funding at all from the government, whether federal or provincial in Canada.

The reason for that is because we know the dangers that the moment we do that, we will find ourselves compromising some of these precious truths that we're going to be talking about today as well.

So it is a seminary that's dedicated to the historic gospel and also to the truths of the

Reformation. Great, and for any of you interested in investigating more about Toronto Baptist Seminary, the website is tbs .edu.

And now, Pastor Rich Jensen, for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, why don't you let our listeners know about this congregation?

Yeah, we're a congregation located in Medford, which is right about in the center of Long Island, a little bit east maybe.

And we've been in existence for 21 years now. We were a church plant in Merrick.

Wow. The reason I'm saying wow is because I remember when the church was planted. I was a member of the church, as you know,

Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island that helped get that church plant started, and it just seems like a year ago to me.

I know. Trust me, it seems like that to me, too, except when I look in the mirror, then

I realize how long ago. But we're a very active congregation in the community.

We're a 1689, we hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, so we are truly a

Reformed Baptist church in every sense of the word. And we have a growing congregation, a lot of young families, young children, and we are currently looking for a permanent home.

We've been renting facilities for the last 21 years, and now we're at a place where God has brought us where we're hoping to find a permanent home for us.

And we have a lot of outreach. We do a lot of street evangelism, as well as other types of evangelism, very active in the pro -life movement, you know, standing in front and trying to convince women not to have abortions, but to take some of the biblical alternatives.

So there's a lot of enthusiasm in it. It's just a pleasure to be the pastor of a church where people are so biblically minded.

Amen. Well, for more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, if anybody either lives in Medford or have loved ones who live in the

Medford Long Island area, or you plan to visit there, the website is hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli, standing for longisland .net, so you can look that up and find out more about that congregation.

And we are going to be also promoting throughout this broadcast a couple of very special events that are taking place on Long Island, one of them at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford Long Island, but another one as well prior to that, featuring our guest today,

Dr. Tony Costa. First, the Word of Truth Church and the

Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship are presenting a conference called the Gospel of the

Reformation to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

And the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island is located on 1055

Portion Road in Farmingville. And the speakers include Dr. Tony Costa, as I just mentioned, also

Pastor Caleb Bunch, Pastor Bruce Bennett, and Pastor Dave Corson.

And if you would like to register for that event, go to, or should

I say call, area code 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614, and ask for Pastor Bruce Bennett, and you can find out all the information that you need in regard to that conference.

If you just need directions and so on, you can also go to wotchurch .com,

W -O -T, standing for wordoftruthchurch .com. And this conference, by the way, is being held over a two -day period.

It's being held starting on Friday, September 29th, and then it is concluding on Saturday, September 30th.

And once again, call 631 -806 -0614. And on Sunday, Pastor, or Dr.

Costa, I should say, will be speaking at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island.

If you could, Pastor Rich Jensen, if you could not only tell us about what that event will be like and what specifically

Dr. Costa will be speaking on, and also tell us about the Spurgeon Fellowship that has cooperated with Word of Truth Church and Hope Reform Baptist Church on these events.

Okay, well, part of that's a little precipitous, because Dr. Costa and I have not had an opportunity to speak yet about his topic, so he and I will be talking about what topic.

But I'm sure it'll be a follow -up to the conference, because Hope is involved in the Spurgeon Fellowship, which is sponsoring the conference.

So we'll be talking about that. The Spurgeon Fellowship is about two years old now, it's called the

Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, and it's made up of pastors who are at the very least

Calvinistic, many of us are fully Reformed, and who are concerned about seeing that the gospel is being preached, you know, that the doctrines of grace are primary in the preaching of the gospel.

And so we have gathered together, we meet about once every two months for fellowship, and also to plan events such as this conference coming up to celebrate the

Reformation. And Dr. Costa is going to be preaching at the morning service at Hope Reformed Baptist, correct?

That's correct, yes. And is that at 11 a .m.? That's at 11 a .m.,

and right at our facility at 3239 Route 112 in Medford, New York.

Right, and again, the website for more details on the location and other matters go to hopereformedli .net.

Well, this subject is a subject that stirs up a lot of controversy. There is really no controversy when it comes to those who are either more to the right of traditional

Roman Catholicism, they basically tell it like it is, they don't mix words about the fact that Protestants are under the curse of God, according to their dogma.

And of course, you have folks that are on this program today that would very clearly recognize unequivocally that the

Church of Rome has pronounced curses upon us that are still binding in the 21st century, as far as a

Roman Catholic is concerned, if that Roman Catholic were to be faithful to the

Church of Rome. The controversy lies within that group of people who are ecumenically minded on both sides of the issue, both

Catholics and Protestants, who have softened the blow in regard to these anathemas, and basically have acted as if these anathemas do not have any weight today, even though the most liberal

Pope in the history of the Roman Catholic Church has not overturned them or recanted them.

Interesting, very interesting point. But I'm going to read just a handful of these anathemas to give you a picture of some of what the

Church of Rome has declared curses upon the

Protestant reformers and their heirs, why they have declared these anathemas, and for what reason.

We have, "...if anyone shall say that by faith alone the impious is justified, so as to mean that nothing else is required to cooperate in order unto the obtaining the grace of justification, and that it is not in any respect necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the righteousness of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is shed abroad in their hearts by the

Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them, or even that the grace by which we are justified is only the favor of God, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that justifying faith is naught else but confidence in the divine mercy which merits sins,

I'm sorry, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that in this confidence alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that he will for certain of an absolute and infallible certainty have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless we have learnt this by a special revelation, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that the grace of justification only befalleth those who are predestined unto eternal life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but received not grace as being the divine power predestined unto evil, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are, even for a man that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that the justice received is not preserved and also increased in the sight of God through good works, but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of justification received, not a cause of the increase thereof, let him be anathema.

And I could spend the rest of the 90 minutes reading these anathemas, but this is very clear language, is it not,

Dr. Tony Costa, that the Council of Trent, which was gathered in the 16th century, between 1545 and 1563, in a direct response to the

Protestant Reformation, this is clearly pronouncing curses upon the

Reformers and all that agree with them on the gospel, is it not? Yes, that's correct, and the

Council of Trent has sometimes been called the Counter -Reformation, and that was later also amplified by Ignatius of Loyola and the

Order of the Jesuits, which were formed for the express purpose of reversing the

Reformation in Europe and abroad. So if you each of those canons that you cited,

Chris, you will notice that what Rome is opposing here is that word sola, the word alone.

And the reason for that is because the Roman Catholic Church understood very clearly that if Luther and Calvin, and those seem to be the two

Reformers that they were directing these curses against, and if you look at these canons very closely, what they're basically reacting to is that if the

Reformers were correct, that justification comes by faith alone, by grace alone, etc.,

then at the end of the day, why do we need the priesthood? Why do we need the papacy? Why do we need the magisterium?

In other words, if God redeems man solely by his sovereign will, his sovereign grace, and God himself dispenses these graces through his son, the

Lord Jesus Christ, then what this does is it basically undermines the authority of the

Roman Catholic hierarchy. And you will notice that the reason why Rome must maintain these anathemas and must maintain that justification is by not just by grace.

I mean, they do believe that we're saved by grace. So when Protestants say Roman Catholics don't believe we're saved by grace, that's not true.

Trent condemns those who say that grace is not necessary. What Trent is condemning is not that we're saved by grace, but that we're saved by grace alone.

And therefore, the solace of the Reformation are very, very important.

And we must bear those in mind. That is what Rome is opposing. Not grace, but grace alone.

And the very doctrine of justification has also been undermined. And Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question or comment.

Well, just for the sake of our listeners, before we get too far into the conversation, because they might not know, could you define exactly what they mean by the term anathema?

Yeah, that's the pivotal issue that regards whether or not an ecumenist can rightly say, oh, that's really not a very big deal.

In fact, I've heard a different spin on that than the authors originally intended.

But if you could define that for us. Certainly. The word anathema is a

Greek word that is used also in the Greek New Testament, primarily in Galatians 169, where Paul warns the

Galatians about those who are preaching another gospel, and he pronounces an anathema on those who bring a gospel other than the gospel of grace.

Now, this is the irony. The irony of ironies is that Paul lays an anathema on those who teach a gospel of grace, plus fill in the blanks, circumcision, keeping the law, etc.,

etc. But the irony here is the Roman Catholic Church places an anathema on those who hold to the very view that Paul was astounding.

That's right. The word anathema is the strongest word in the Greek New Testament. It means literally to be under the divine curse of God.

It's a very strong word. And when Trent used it, he used it in the fullest sense of the word, which means to be under the judgment of God, and also to come under the damnation of God's judgment.

And so we have to realize that Trent is not just some council that happened 500 years ago.

The Council of Trent has been ratified by Vatican II and by the official catechism of the

Catholic Church. As John XXIII pointed out when he was opening the sessions to the

Second Vatican Council, which was 1962 to 1965, Pope John XXIII said in reference to Trent, as it was, so it is today.

So it's important to realize that this has been ratified by the present

Roman Catholic Church. And this is why it was very disconcerting in 1994, when we had the evangelicals and Catholics together, where they were coming together and people like J .I.

Packer and many others, Bill Bright, Chuck Colson, Pat Robertson, these were men who were actually in agreement and were endorsing this agreement between evangelicals and Catholics together.

But it was people like Dr. John MacArthur and Dr. R .C. Spruill and Dr. John Ankenberg who opposed this and basically said, listen folks, they're pulling the wool over our eyes, they're not denying

Trent. Yes, and the spin that I have heard from some of the more moderate

Roman Catholics, moderate to liberal Roman Catholics, who are prone to be ecumenists,

I have heard them say a couple of things. Number one, that the anathema really meant that you could not be a member in good standing of the

Roman Catholic Church. It had nothing to do with a pronouncement that you were damned. And I've also heard that the anathemas are not dogmatic, only the teachings that are involved, that are being protected by Trent, which to me seems absurd since the canons begin with the word if, most of them anyway.

And so therefore, the connected anathema seems to be an essential part of that.

But if you could respond to those defenses of ecumenism in spite of the anathemas?

Well, I think that they are doing exactly what you said, that they're simply spinning this, because if you're cut off from the

Church, and you are outside the Church, well then, you are outside the dispensing of God's graces which are available to the sacraments.

And so if you're cut off from the Church, you're basically being cut off from God's grace. But remember,

Trent denied predestination, it denied at least the

Calvinistic Reformed interpretation of predestination. Rome does not believe in eternal security.

And so you could still be a Roman Catholic, baptized Roman Catholic, but if you commit a mortal sin in the eyes of the

Roman Catholic Church, a mortal sin destroys God's saving grace and condemn you to hell.

And so I think there is a lot of spin -doctoring going on here. The Roman Catholic Church that met in Trent would definitely affirm what you and I just said here, that those who would challenge its positions on transubstantiation and its positions on justification would, without a hesitation, say that we would be damned.

And then we could also quote the Bull of Unum Sanctum in the early 14th century, where it pronounced that those who are outside of the

Roman Catholic Church will not be saved, that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation.

And so if you're not subject to the Roman Pontiff, well then, you will not be saved. And this whole concept that the modern

Roman Catholic who is a Cumanist, I've heard them say things like, why are you going back to the 16th century?

A lot's happened since then. We've even seen a Catholic -Lutheran accord on justification occur.

Isn't that really a nonsensical argument? Because that is not even in any way binding on either

Catholics or Protestants. In fact, I know of no one, and I'm not to say that there isn't someone who is from a conservative

Lutheran background who is involved in that, but I don't know of any. And every Missouri Synod Lutheran, or Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, or more conservative

Lutheran that I have asked about that accord, they said that that is a farce, that that is not in any way the unanimous consent of Lutheranism worldwide, especially those that are confessionally faithful to Lutheranism.

So isn't this really just a nonsensical argument in regard to the centuries that have passed, or the

Lutheran -Catholic accord on justification? Yes, absolutely. It is a farce, because again, what

Rome did with that accord with the Lutherans is what they did with the Evangelicals and Catholics together.

They affirmed that we confess that we're saved by God's grace. Well, yes, Rome has always,

Trent has always affirmed that, Rome has always affirmed that, but again, it's that word sola. It did not affirm that we believe that we're saved by grace alone, and that is what that works.

And that's why it is a farce, because what the Lutheran accord did there with the

Roman Catholics is basically betrayed their Reformational roots. So once again, we're not saying that Roman Catholics don't believe that we need

God's grace to be saved, but what Roman Catholics are doing is they're offering what has been called a semi -Pelagian argument, which basically says that God gives us grace so that we can do good works.

And so you end up being saved by grace, but kept by law. Yes, and Roman Catholics, though, deny that they are semi -Pelagianists, because they will use the escape door by saying that grace is necessary for everything, but doesn't that at some point really become, it robs grace of its very meaning?

I mean, because it's grace that gives you enough ability to actually merit salvation, isn't it?

Exactly. The Apostle Paul would have agreed with you on that. Romans 11, I think verse 6, he says that if it is by grace, then it's not by works.

And the King James adds a variant there, and if it's by works, it's no longer by grace. So if it's by grace, then it can't be by works, but then if it's by works, it can't be by grace.

And they cancel each other out in that respect. So when Roman Catholics say, well, we're not really semi -Pelagians, it's very interesting when you look at the development of Roman Catholic history.

If you look at someone like Augustine, Augustine was a very strong proponent of predestination.

He believed in the sovereignty of God, and the election of God, and so forth. And you see a little bit of that popping up with the

Jansenists, with Blaise Pascal. And it's interesting that if you look at the development of Roman Catholic theology, while it praises

Augustine as a doctor of the Western Church, Roman Catholics, other than the

Jansenists, who aren't around anymore, while they pay lip service to Augustine, definitely reject the

Augustinian view of predestination, which, interestingly enough, both Luther and Calvin both look back to, and prompted

Calvin to even say that Augustine is all of ours, that Augustine belongs to us, the

Reformers. And I just want to make it clear for our listeners who may have not really had this sink in to their minds and their memories, lest you think that those of us who believe that works are absolutely necessary and essential as an evidence of saving faith, as Jesus said himself, a good tree bears good fruit.

And lest you think that those people who do insist that works are a necessary product of one genuinely saved, uh, let me read to you again,

Canon 24, if anyone shall say that the justice received is not preserved and also increased in the sight of God through good works, but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of justification received, but not a cause of the increase thereof, let him be anathema.

So even those who say that works are essential in regard to salvation, but not as an agent or a cause, but only as an evidence, even they, meaning we, are under the curse of Rome.

It's not just those who believe in easy believism or cheap grace or repentant -less Christianity.

This is even those who are historically Calvinist, who believe in the perseverance and preservation of the saints, who believe that good works are a necessary element of salvation, but just as an evidence, right?

Absolutely. Are you asking me? I'm not sure. Yes, I was, Dr. Costa. Yes, yes, yes, you're absolutely right, and it's also important to note here that Rome joins in with the chorus of all the world's religions, all the world's religions,

Islam and Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, all of these world religions have one thing in common.

It's all about doo -doo -doo, and in the end, it is doo -doo, isn't it, in God's nostrils. I like filthy rags, but it's interesting.

Christianity is done, done, done. It's done. Christ finished the work on the cross. So the one differentiating factor here is that all of the world's religions, all of the cults, whether it's the

Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Christian Science, all of the cults also teach the same thing, that it's all on what you do.

It's based on your works, and it's interesting that when you look throughout all of Scripture, that you find in the

Garden of Eden, for instance, that it was God who prepared the coverings for Adam and Eve, and then you look at the story of Cain and Abel, and how

Cain tried to seek God's approval by the work of his hand, by bringing forth the produce of the earth, which was cursed by the fall, but Abel brings forth a lamb, and he offers up its blood on the altar.

And what you see here is what Charles Spurgeon called, Spurgeon said, that what we find here is the

Cain versus Abel here, this is a picture, he says, of the children of Abel, which continue to wage conflict with the children of Cain.

That is, the children of Abel are those who trust in the blood of the Lamb, who trust in the grace of God, and the children of Cain are those who seek

God's approval by the works of their hands. And so this conflict that we see going on throughout

Scripture, and even in conflicts with Roman Catholicism and historic

Protestantism, is exactly the same tension that we see throughout the biblical record.

But it's interesting, is it not, Chris, that Roman Catholicism, while claiming to be the one true church that Jesus Christ founded, it's interesting that Roman Catholicism will agree with the world's religions, that it's not grace alone that saves us, we need to add to that grace.

Right. And by the way, we're going to be going to a break right now, and Pastor Rich Jensen, when we return, if you'd like to ask a question of Dr.

Costa as well, since I cannot see you, you cannot make hand gestures or give me facial expressions,

I have no idea when you're ready or desirous of asking a question. So if you'd like to, when we return...

I'm making faces at you right now, Chris. I'm sorry? I said I'm making faces at you right now.

I hope you're not making hand gestures. But anyway, we're gonna start with you asking a question of Dr.

Costa when we return from the break. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with Dr.

Tony Costa and Rome's anathemas against Protestants. I am

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Now we're really back. Sorry for the false start just a little while ago. We are back to our discussion with Dr.

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and today

I have two co -hosts, the Rev. Buzz Taylor and also Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and Pastor Rich Jensen, do you have a question for Dr. Tony Costa? Yes.

Long Island in particular, this is Roman Catholic country out here. In fact, probably a good percentage of my congregation are former

Roman Catholics, and one of the things that we have noticed in ministering to them is kind of a lack of knowledge of what their church really believes, and one of those things would be the topic for today, what is an anathema and how does that apply.

Do you have any suggestions for people, you know, some of the listeners out there who maybe have

Roman Catholic relatives, etc., on the importance of explaining to them what the anathemas are, what that means, and then the wide gulf that Rome puts between Catholics and Protestants?

Yes, I mean, I'm a former Roman Catholic myself. I was raised Roman Catholic and trained in the catechisms, and a number of my relatives are priests as well, so I have a pretty good grasp of the nominal

Roman Catholic thinking, also the religious Roman Catholic as well. What I would suggest is,

I would simply say that the word anathema, as used by the

Roman Catholic Church, does carry with it a very negative connotation, and that is that those who do not agree with the

Roman Catholic Church have put themselves outside of the Church. The Church is believed to be the conduit, the dispenser of God's grace, and so what

I would do is I would remind our Roman Catholic friends that if they are following another gospel, if the gospel of Rome is not the gospel of grace, which

I contend it is not the gospel of grace, then that has serious ramifications on their salvation or their eternal life.

Many Roman Catholics, as you probably know from your congregation, many of them are ignorant of Roman Catholic theology.

Many of them are ignorant of the Bible and what the Bible teaches, but one thing that they are certain of as Roman Catholics, or were certain of, was that the

Roman Catholic Church basically carries you from birth to the grave, from the womb to the tomb, from baptism to last rites and so forth, and the

Roman Catholic Church promises its adherents that if they do not make it to heaven, then what it does is it gives them an assurance that they will go to purgatory, and after a period of time when their venial sins will be purged, then they will be admitted into heaven.

So what I usually do with my Roman Catholic friends and my family members is

I want them to realize how important and how dangerous it is to play with the gospel, that the gospel is serious business, that the gospel costs the

Son of God His blood, His sweat, and tears, and to make known to them that if you reject the gospel, you reject eternal life.

And what I usually also do is I remind my Roman Catholic friends as well that whenever the

Bible uses that word anathema, and that is where Rome is getting this word from, it appears six times in the

Greek New Testament, and whenever it does appear, it appears in a very negative context.

So just for instance, in Romans 9 verse 3, Paul basically says there that he would be willing to be cut off or anathema, accursed from Christ for the sake of his kinsmen, for the sake of his

Jewish brethren that they might come to faith in Christ. And when Paul says that he would wish himself anathema, the

English translation is usually accursed or cut off, that means to be damned, to be rejected by God.

And so I think it's really important that we realize the way that these words are used.

Now Rome today is a proverbial chameleon. You will notice that the face of Roman Catholicism in North America is a very different face than what you would find in South America, or let's say in Europe, in Italy for instance.

And the problem with Roman Catholicism is that Roman Catholicism, because it rejects sola scriptura, you will notice that Roman Catholicism wavers back and forth.

It will maintain the Council of Trent, it will maintain the historic councils, but then you get to Vatican II and you read some really weird stuff in there, such as Muslims worship the same

God that we do, and that even atheists have an opportunity to be saved.

So the waters get really muddy, but Rome cannot deny its historic councils or its dogmas, because to do so would be to undermine the authority of the papacy and the authority of the church itself.

Doesn't it all really go back to salvation by works? No matter how much the

Church of Rome peppers their language with the necessity of grace, they declared that Pelagianism was heresy, but at the same time, when you have reached a point when atheists, unrepentant atheists, can go to the grave and may be looking at the smile of Jesus with open arms, welcoming that person into heaven, it really becomes all of these anathemas and ceremonial rites.

It seems to be nonsensical. They're speaking out of both sides of their mouths, which is actually why you have divisions, sharp divisions in the

Church of Rome, to the point of even having sativacantists, who believe that the popes since Vatican II could not even be really legitimate because of the fact that the sativacantists, which means the chair of Peter is vacant, they recognize that this is not historic

Roman Catholicism. So this is really a mind -boggling phenomenon, isn't it?

It is. It is. So much for the monolithic Church of Rome.

We keep hearing about how unanimous Rome is and how you Protestants are all scattered and there's unanimity among Roman Catholics.

No, there isn't. There's a lot of sharp divisions. As you rightly stated, the sativacantists don't believe that the present pope is a legitimate pope, but that the chair of Peter remains vacant.

And part of the problem is Vatican II, that was the clincher for the sativacantists.

They saw Vatican II as a sell -out, they saw Vatican II as a compromise, and in many respects it was.

If you read it very carefully, it basically refers to Protestants as separated brethren, and it starts using language of other religions that are very pious and so forth.

And you saw it in the work of John Paul II, where John Paul had a day of international prayer where he invited

Buddhists and Hindus and everything under the sun to come to Rome, and so you have all these various religious groups all praying together.

But praying to what? I mean, Buddhists don't even believe in a personal god. What are they praying to, their navels? And then we could move forward, we could move forward and look at Pope Francis today, my heavens,

I mean, Pope Francis is now saying, well, who am I to judge if a man loves a man and a woman loves a woman, and they want to live together, and so forth.

And there's a lot of stuff coming out of this present pope's mouth that is just causing a lot of Roman Catholics to just scratch their heads and to wonder what's going on.

But you see, Chris, I think what's at the very bottom of all of this, it all comes down to authority.

And when you deny sola scriptura, when scripture alone is denied, and you espouse sola ecclesia, the church alone, that is, the church alone determines what is canonical, the church alone determines what is true faith, and so forth, the moment you deny sola scriptura, this is what you're left with.

You're left with a man -made organization that is tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

And this is why there is mass confusion today in the Roman Catholic Church, in regards to homosexuality, in regards to divorce, and so forth.

Yeah, well, the modern Roman day Roman Catholic apologists, and perhaps this quote has some place in history that I'm unaware of, but I've heard modern day

Roman Catholics use the phrase that sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy.

And the thing that is really absurd when you think of it is that the

Roman Catholic apologists will say that we are susceptible to anarchy and confusion and division because of the fact that we do not have an infallible interpreter to guide us through the scriptures so that we can rightly understand them.

The problem is they don't have an infallible interpreter for their infallible interpreter. They're really in the same boat as they claim we're in, aren't they?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so what they end up doing is they're arguing in a circle, they're ending where they started.

And so when you look at the history of the Roman Catholic Church, I mean, my heavens, we could look at the period called the

Babylonian captivity, where you had three popes vying for power at the same time, and the center of the

Roman Catholic Church was temporarily moved to Abignale, France. And so when you look at the history of the

Roman Catholic Church, you don't see this unity that we keep hearing about.

But there's internal strife, and popes firing illegitimate children, and so forth.

So absolutely, I mean, where's the anarchy that they speak about in terms of Sola Scriptura?

The anarchy happens when you have people who are invested with a supposed

God -given right to speak for God, and when you the office of the papacy, what you see there is really an usurping of the triune

God. You've got a man called the Holy Father, he claims to be the visible head of the

Church, and claims to be the representative of Christ, and there you notice the papacy virtually robs the titles of the triune

God, the Father who is holy, the Son who is the true head of the Church, and of course the

Holy Spirit who is the only legitimate representative of Christ on the earth. He's the comforter that Jesus promised he would send, and he is the one who would interpret the scriptures.

He would enlighten our minds that we would come to know the Lord Jesus and to know his mind.

Now, I don't know if you would agree with my experience, but I was raised

Roman Catholic, I was a Walter boy as well, I was educated in a parochial

Roman Catholic school for eight years of my life, and I have learned much more about Roman Catholicism after having become born again and being a

Bible -believing Protestant, but I have in my last several decades of life as a

Christian have encountered far more division and disagreement that is under the umbrella of the alleged monolith of Roman Catholicism than I have encountered amongst conservative

Bible -believing evangelicals, and of course I'm not including in that liberals that claim to be

Christian because we who are Bible -believing Christians by and large would consider them apostate and not even a part of the body of Christ.

So as far as the claim that we have anarchy, isn't it really a pot calling the kettle black, if you will, because of the fact that there is so much division by those who claim to be

Roman Catholic and who have not been censored, excommunicated, disciplined, even if they're very well known and writing books and so on, and teaching in schools and seminaries?

Yes, absolutely, and here's the problem. We have no problem calling out the goats among our flock.

We have no problem calling out the apostates and those who claim to be in league with Christ but are in league with Satan.

We have no problem calling these folks out and saying that they're not in the communion of the saints.

The problem with Roman Catholicism here, Chris, is mostly in part to the sacramental view that they hold to, and that is, in Roman Catholicism, when someone receives baptism, whether it's an infant or someone who joins as an adult,

Roman Catholic theology teaches when someone is baptized, they receive an indelible mark.

They are marked with the mark of Christ himself. And so you will notice that in Roman Catholicism, they are much slower in calling out, you know, liberal professors in Roman Catholic universities or calling out people who are lapsed

Catholics and so forth. And this is part and parcel of the problem with the whole abuse with Roman Catholic priests and the whole pedophilia scamble that's been going on.

The reason why a lot of these priests, for instance, are not defrocked and removed from their ministries is because they believe that once you become a

Roman Catholic, you receive this mark. That this mark of Christ, even if you go to hell, even if you are damned to hell, you still have that mark, which sounds very, very strange and sounds very, very contradictory to bear the mark of Christ and yet be condemned for eternity.

So the worldview here, I think, is very different. And there are a lot of,

I can assure you of this, Chris, because I teach in certain academic institutions, there are a lot of folks teaching in Roman Catholic seminaries and Roman Catholic colleges that don't believe any of the articles of the historic priest.

Yes, and the fact that the Roman Catholic Church also believes that even a priest that they would deem to be an apostate or a heretic, even that priest, they believe, carries his priestly powers to the grave.

In other words, he can consecrate a host and bring about the so -called miracle of transubstantiation.

My friend Richard Bennett, former Roman Catholic priest and now a Reformed Baptist, he's been a

Reformed Baptist for decades, they believe he even can consecrate a host and bring about the miracle of transubstantiation, even though he speaks against Rome vociferously and denounces it as a heretical and apostate organization.

That's because of that indelible mark I was talking about that they receive at baptism, and also in the rite of sacred orders, which again is a sacrament in Roman Catholic theology.

And I've always asked my Roman Catholic friends and theologians if a priest could enter into a bakery and transubstantiate all the bread on the counter, and the answer is yes, they could.

So that's a lot of power to transubstantiate bread into Christ.

Yes, and we are going to another break. This is going to be an elongated break to accommodate

Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida.

They require a 12 -minute break between our two segments, so if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, please join us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

And Pastor Rich Jensen, again, when we return, I will give you the floor to ask a question of Dr.

Costa, since I cannot see you. So have a question ready, and God willing, we will be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. Before I return to our discussion with Dr. Tony Costa on the theme,

Rome's Anathemas Against Protestants, I have some important events to promote being orchestrated by some of our sponsors.

First of all, starting tomorrow through the 5th of August, the Fellowship Conference New England is being held at the

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. Speakers include

Don Curran of HeartCry Missionary Society, the organization founded by Paul Washer, my dear friend

Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is an author and pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington, who's also been on this program, pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, the sister church of Grace Life Radio, or should

I say Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, that operates Grace Life Radio, which airs

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Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who we've also had on this program, he is the author of Reviving New England and Why We're Protestant, and he is the pastor of the

Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire. If you'd like to register for this conference, which begins tomorrow, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And then, coming up at the end of September, the event that we have been announcing from time to time during this broadcast, and that is the

Gospel of the Reformation 500th Anniversary at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, which they are conducting in cooperation with Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship.

Speakers include our guest today, Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, and also

Pastor Caleb Bunch and Pastor Bruce Bennett and Pastor Dave Corson. If you would like to attend this conference, call 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614, and you can also get more details on the location of the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, by going to wotchurch .com, W -O -T, which stands for Word of Truth, church .com,

wotchurch .com. And then, on that Sunday, that weekend, Dr.

Tony Costa will be speaking at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, the congregation pastored by one of our co -hosts today,

Pastor Rich Jensen. That will be at the 11 a .m. worship service at Hope Reform Baptist Church, 3239

Route 112, Suite 1, in Medford, Long Island, New York. For more details, call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711, and you can also go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net. Then, in November, the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, and,

God willing, I will be there with an Iron Shrub and Zion Exhibitor's booth, so I hope that as many of you as possible can make it to that conference and greet me at the

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Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress, and the location will be the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you'd like to register, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

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Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, my dear friend of many years, Dr. James R.

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The 17th of January is exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and from the 18th through the 20th is exclusively an

English -speaking version of the conference. For more details, go to G3conference .com.

G3conference .com. If you register for any of these events, please let them know, all of these organizations know, that you heard about their events from Chris Arnson on Iron Shrub and Zion Radio.

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I have gone without making any public appeals for donations for Iron Shrub and Zion Radio for many years since I first began the program in 2005, 2006.

There was never a single public appeal for a donation in many years, and then we have reached such an urgent stage for finances in order to remain on the air that my current advertisers, who have been keeping my program afloat and keeping it on the air, they have urged me to make these public appeals.

If you are blessed above and beyond your ability to give to your local church, as you always have been doing, and if you're not a member of a local church, you should prayerfully rectify that situation immediately, but if you are blessed above and beyond giving to your local church and above and beyond providing for your family, because those two things are clearly commands of God, then please consider donating to Iron Shrub and Zion Radio, which is obviously not a command of God, but I believe a good way to spend some extra funds that you may be blessed with.

If you love this program and listen to it regularly and have been edified by it, go to ironshrubandzionradio .com,

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Otherwise, if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to do those things, we would love to receive donations of any amount.

And now we are receiving again your emails with questions for our guest Dr. Tony Costa at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and Pastor Rich Jensen, do you have a question for our guest

Dr. Tony Costa? Yes, I actually have two, one kind of short one in which leads into the other one.

Even though I've been ministering for many years on Long Island, and to Roman Catholics in particular, I think

I learned something a little bit new, and that was when you talked about that even those who are anathematized, if they are

Roman Catholic, yet they are still considered Roman Catholic. So somebody who has converted, and say as a member of my congregation,

Rome would still look at them if they were baptized a Catholic, they're still a Catholic. Did I understand you correct, Tony? Yes, you did understand me correctly, and even if they did join your

Church, they would still be considered Roman Catholic because they bear that indelible mark that they received in Christ, and that is why when a lot of, you hear a lot of these

Protestants swimming the Tiber, so to speak, returning to Rome, they don't necessitate their rebaptism, because they regard their initial baptism to be valid, and because they receive that mark, they're simply welcomed back into the

Mother Church. I see, and that leads to my second question, and it is, how then does

Rome reconcile Vatican II, where they say that they are, that, you know, somebody outside the fold, even of the

Protestants are separated brothers, compared with Trent, that calls us anathema, a curse.

How do they reconcile, you know, well, they have to do a lot of spinning, spin doctrines, because what you're finding in Vatican II is a different spirit than what you find in Trent.

In Trent, it is primarily a counter -reformation document, but Vatican II realizes that if they do not affirm

Trent, which incidentally they do affirm it, it's in the language of Second Vatican Council, they do affirm the

Council of Trent as valid, and so forth, but if they were to dismiss the

Council of Trent, and what this would do, it would undermine the idea of the papacy and the infallibility of the

Pope, and so forth, and the consistency which they claim that they've always had for 2 ,000 years. The problem here, as I see it, is the

Roman Catholic Church has been evolving, has been developing, has been morphing into a contemporary

Church, a Church that wants to be contemporary with modern society, and that is why you will notice this tension, which you rightfully noted, that Vatican II, compared to the

Council of Trent, is very malleable. It's willing to grant the possibility of salvation to atheists.

It's willing to grant salvation to Muslims. And even in marriage, if a

Roman Catholic wants to marry, let's say, a Muslim, or wants to marry a

Hindu, or a Buddhist, or even an atheist, the Roman Catholic Church will permit that today, on the condition that the marriage will be performed in the

Roman Catholic Church, and with the promise that the children will be raised Roman Catholic. So as you can see, the

Roman Catholic Church of yesteryear is very different than the

Roman Catholic Church of today. And so when we confront them with these contradictions, which they are, they simply say that the papacy, the head of the visible

Church, it's not that he has denied those articles of the ancient councils, but that he is moving the

Church along. He's moving the Church into contemporary society, and he is expanding the horizons of the

Church. So that is their argumentation, and as you probably noticed, it's not a very good argument, because what it shows is that the

Roman Church is compromised. You see something similar with the Mormon Church. The Roman Church at one time banned

Blacks from entering the priesthood and joining the Mormon Church as legitimate authority holders.

And then all of a sudden, in the late 1970s, there was a new revelation, and now

Blacks can enter into the priesthood, even though Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, and all the Mormon prophets said that no

Black man will ever inherit the priesthood until all the white men got it first. So they try to spin that off and say, well, the

Church is simply moving according to the direction of, in the case of the Mormon Church, the prophet, the living prophet.

In the case of the Roman Catholic Church, the argument is that the Pope is being led by the

Holy Spirit to extend the horizons of the Church. But you still have that contradiction still there.

Thank you. Yes, that actually leads to, I think, an important question that distinguishes discipline from dogma.

Because of the fact that we have, or should I say they have, the most liberal pope that they have had in their history,

Pope Francis. You even have a lot of conservative -leaning Catholics in the privacy of their own homes and in the closed, locked doors of their studies having conversations with one another, like, what on earth are we going to do with this?

They have the scapegoat or the excuse of saying that these things that the

Pope is saying, they are not binding as dogma because he's merely giving his personal opinion. And Catholics are not bound to agree with even a

Pope on everything a Pope says unless he declares it ex cathedra or unless he declares it infallibly as a dogma that's binding forever.

Isn't that why you have today, even centuries after Trent, you have a combination of dogma and things that appear to be very strict, that alienate

Protestants and anybody of another religion outside of Roman Catholicism, alienate them as being lost and outside of the pale of fellowship, etc.

And you also have these very liberal, ecumenical, mushy -gushy, fuzzy -wuzzy kind of teachings that are coexisting at the same time.

Isn't it because those disciplines really are not forever binding and they can be really shifting according to the winds of the time?

Well, that is the argument that they use. They will say that the

Pope is only infallible, as you rightly stated. And incidentally, infallibility was not affirmed at Trent.

In fact, papal infallibility was never declared. By the

Church. Until the First Vatican Council in 1870. Prior to that, the agreements were made by the

Magisterium and the Bishop of Rome in concert with the bishops. So the dogma of the

Immaculate Conception was agreed upon, not just by Pope Pius IX, but also by the bishops in concert with him.

The First Vatican Council was the first council to officially define the idea of papal infallibility.

There was a lot of pushback on that, and the critics of that view within the

Roman Catholic Church were summarily silenced, basically. So what you have here is, you have this, well, the

Pope's not infallible, but wouldn't you think that the Pope, being the head of the

Visible Church and the Roman Catholic Church, would you not think that what he would say would be in tune with the

Scriptures, and in tune with what the Sacred Tradition of the Church has always taught? And so when someone like Francis goes out of his way and says, well, who am

I to judge sexual marriage, etc., my goodness, I mean, you would think he'd know something about Romans 1, 1

Corinthians 6, Leviticus 18, and Leviticus 20. So I think what it is here is, this is a cop -out.

I think a lot of our Roman Catholic friends, many of whom are, I think, on the left wing of things, a lot of them are trying to save face by just trying to say, well, you know, of course

Francis is going to say some silly things from time to time, but they always fall back on this dogma and infallibility business.

And incidentally, I'm on, I follow Pope Francis on Twitter, and so I've been giving him the

Gospel on Twitter, and a couple of critiques of his position as well. And by the way,

I have, I won't identify the Catholic apologist by name, but I have challenged a

Catholic apologist friend of mine to do a debate on the theme, is

Pope Francis a faithful shepherd? And his response to me was, that sounds like a trick question, because he's a very conservative

Catholic and he recognizes that there's many ways that the Pope is misleading people.

But we have a ton of listeners here with questions waiting, so I better start asking them before we run out of time.

Jeffrey in Haddon Heights, New Jersey asks, Catholic theologian

Raymond Brown wrote the essential to a critical interpretation of church documents is the realization that the

Roman Catholic Church does not change her official stance in a blunt way.

It seems to be true that Rome both affirms and has moved away from Trent at the same time.

Can we use that to communicate to Catholics that their church is fallible, and we should rely on Scripture?

Hmm. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, Raymond Brown was an excellent

New Testament scholar. He was particularly a specialist in the Johannine writings, the

Gospel of John, and the Letters of John as well.

He's considered a liberal by many, isn't he? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. He's fallen into disavor among conservative

Roman Catholics because Brown made some statements to the effect that would challenge the historic beliefs of the

Roman Catholic Church. I think he even questioned the virgin birth narrative in the

Gospel of Matthew and Luke, which is very dear, of course, to the Roman Catholic view of Mary.

So there's a lot of things that Raymond Brown has said that would agree with our side of things.

He would agree with us, for example, that in the early church there was a plurality of elders, that there wasn't this mono episcopate where there was one bishop who ruled the whole church, like you find in the papacy.

So there are things that Dr. Brown would say that were in complete concert with Protestantism, but then there was a lot of things he would say that obviously agreed with Roman Catholicism.

But for the most part, Dr. Brown would be considered a liberal scholar.

But makes a fine cream soda, I might add. And we have

Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. Which of the five solas of the

Reformation would you say was at the center of Rome's attention? Sola Scriptura seems to be the easy answer, but Soli Deo Gloria certainly is front and center based on their vehement defense of the

Church of Rome's authority. Good question. I believe, though, that the

Church of Rome would claim Soli Deo Gloria, but they would be inconsistent in trying to uphold that.

But wouldn't it be basically the two solas that are at the core of the

Reformation are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura? Yes, I would say, if you notice that Trent addressed the issue of justification in many of the canons.

Justification was the controversial issue of the day.

In fact, what did Luther say? Martin Luther said that justification is the very hinge upon which the door moves in terms of salvation and God and so forth.

This is the central piece, he said, of the Reformation was the doctrine of justification. But ultimately, justification by faith is only true if it's taught in Scripture.

And so Sola Scriptura would be the foundational element in the

Reformation in terms of authority. Theologically, it was Sola Fide, justification by faith alone, but in terms of ecclesiastical authority,

Sola Scriptura was a major threat to the Roman Church, because the Roman Church claims to be the true interpreter of the

Scriptures. And in fact, the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church repeats that statement and says that the duty of interpreting the

Scriptures is given to none other than Mother Church and the Magisterium. And so the present view of the

Roman Catholic Church is that the true interpreter of the Scriptures remains the Church itself, not the laity.

So the question of authority is fundamental. If Sola Scriptura is true, then why do we need sacred tradition?

Why do we need papacy? Why do we need the bishops? Why do we need sacramentalism? Why do we need the priesthood?

If Christians are priests and kings, they are a royal priesthood. If we are a priesthood, then why do we need ordained priests?

So as you can see, Chris, what this does is it undermines the whole structure. You remove that authority, the whole deck of cards comes falling down.

Dr. Costa, we're going to a break right now. I already forwarded you a rather lengthy question from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

I forwarded to you so you could mull it over during the break, since it's rather lengthy, and we'll have you respond to that question when we return from our final break.

If anybody would like to join us, now is the time, before we run out of time. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes, the next 25 minutes or so to go, our guest has been and will continue to be

Dr. Tony Costa, and we have been discussing the theme, Rome's Anathemas against Protestants.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and I would hurry up and get online if you intend to have your question asked on the air, because we have a line here of people waiting, and we're running out of time.

As you know, Dr. Costa, I forwarded you a lengthy question from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, and even though you've addressed some of this,

I think it's helpful because instead of going by our memory, she's actually documenting the actual language of wording in the

Second Vatican Council. First of all, we have, the Vatican clearly looks favorably upon Islam, and this is from the

Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, from November 21st, 1964.

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge their creator, in the first place among whom are the

Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us, they adore the one merciful

God, mankind's judge on the last day. Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate 3,

October 28th, 1965. The church has also a high regard for the

Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.

They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith

Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate

Jesus as a prophet, his virgin mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke.

Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.

For this reason, they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms, deeds, and fasting.

Over the centuries, many quarrels and dissensions have arisen between Christians and Muslims. The Sacred Council now pleads with all to forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve mutual understanding for the benefit of all men.

Let them together preserve and promote peace, liberty, social justice, and moral values."

And Jenny's question is, have they made similar statements concerning having a high regard for Protestants?

Have the Muslims been anathematized like the Protestants? That's a very interesting question because I don't know if the

Popes, the last couple of Popes, last several Popes, have ever apologized to the martyred

Protestants, or they apologized for the martyrdom of Protestants, or asked forgiveness for that, as they have for the mistreatment of Jews and Muslims.

But that's a very good question that Jenny asks. Dr. Toomey? Yes, well, yes, historically speaking, apologies have been made to the

Jews. Apologies have been made, even against Protestants, for such things as the

Spanish Inquisition, among others, and also to the Muslims. Now, we're still waiting for an apology from our

Muslim friends for taking over all of North Africa, all of the

Middle East, which were all bastions of Christianity, including Turkey today, which is the

Asia Minor mentioned in the Bible, in the New Testament. We will never hear that, ever, because the conquest of Islam is to regain the whole world for the glory of Allah, and so forth.

Now, you'll notice something in these statements. They're basically affirming we worship the same God, and so forth.

They refer to them as they hold the faith of Abraham, which contradicts

Galatians 3 .27, that you are children of Abraham through faith in Jesus Christ.

In other words, you can only be true children of Abraham if you are in Christ, in a saving relationship with Christ.

And so, not all those who claim to be the children of Abraham are the children of Abraham. That only applies to the redeemed.

Now, does the Roman Catholic Church assert that they worship the same God? It does. We don't have time to go into this, but the

God of Islam is not the God of the Bible. The God of Islam is a Unitarian being who is unknowable.

The God of the Bible is a Triune being. The Lord Jesus Christ was God incarnate. Islam denies that categorically.

So, they're not the same God, contrary to what Vatican II says. Now, Vatican II does not anathematize the

Muslims, obviously. It doesn't actually anathematize Atheists or Jews or anyone else.

But the term that Vatican II uses for Protestants is separated brethren.

So, they acknowledge Protestants as separated brethren, meaning they have left

Mother Church and they are invited to come back into Mother Church. Now, here's an interesting point.

They do believe that baptism that is performed, even adult baptism, performed in Protestant churches or even infant baptism in Presbyterian or Lutheran or Anglican Episcopalian churches, they will accept those baptisms as valid.

Why? Because Rome holds to ex opere operato, which means that the very act of the sacrament is valid regardless of who performs it.

And so, as Augustine once said, if Judas baptizes, it is Christ that baptizes.

So, if a Baptist decides to join the Roman Catholic Church, he or she does not have to be rebaptized because they were baptized in the name of the

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And that's because of the whole idea that the ex opere operato guarantees that the very action of the sacrament gives it its authenticity.

Yes, and by the way, before I forget, this is just a side note. If you want to mark your calendars, folks, for Tuesday, September 5th,

I have a very interesting topic with Pastor Jeffrey Waddington, who is an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor.

He takes a very rare view or holds to a very rare view today in the 21st century in that he, as a

Presbyterian, does not accept the baptism of Roman Catholics, which is a very rare position, it seems to me, for paedo -baptists to hold to today.

So, you might want to mark your calendars for Tuesday, September 5th, 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time with Jeffrey Waddington. This citation that Jenny provided, these citations, plural,

I should say, it's interesting that they might as well include the

Jehovah's Witnesses in there as worshipping the same God, right? Because they're...

And Satanists as well. Excuse me? I'm sorry?

And I just added them. If they add the atheists, why not add the Satanists as well? Right, right.

Yes, because Satanists will even, at least modern -day Satanists, will say that they are merely worshipping themselves and that they are not promoting evil deeds of murder and things like that.

We have Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Brother Costa, I was born and raised in the

Roman Catholic religion. I attended Roman Catholic school for most of my elementary years. I give

God glory for his tremendous grace in removing the veil of deceit and falsehood of that religion from my eyes and heart in my mid -20s.

Through all those years of being part of catechism classes, etc.,

I can honestly say I've never heard of the Council of Trent or any other council for that matter.

Do you think if you pulled the average, or perhaps she means pulled, the average

Catholic... No, she meant pulled. Pulled the average Catholic off the street and asked them about their thoughts in the

Council of Trent's anathemas, that they would even know what you were talking about. Very good question.

No, no, they wouldn't. The majority of Roman Catholics are not aware of their histories.

Sometimes we refer to them as the Tridentine Council. If you mention that, they'll think you're talking about Trident Gum.

And by the way, if Dr. Costa... I would say 90 percent of them would probably say they have no clue what

Trent is about. In fact, if you are thinking, those of you listening, are thinking that Dr. Costa is being harsh,

Roman Catholic apologists will tell you the same kind of thing. They will tell you that the average Catholics are ignorant of not only what the

Bible teaches, but of what the Church of Rome teaches. So this is not something that is unique to a

Protestant saying this. Catholic apologists say this kind of thing all the time, and are calling their own people to improve their learning habits.

We have Joe in Slovenia, and Joe in Slovenia has a question that I have to enlarge because it's microscopic.

Joe in Slovenia says, if the Roman Catholic Church anathemas of the

Council of Trent are official dogma binding today, how is it that Church officials all the way up to and including the

Pope engage in aggressive ecumenism? Are there no Orthodox Roman Catholics in positions of influence who can and do point out the hypocritical violation of their own dogma?

I'm confused how we can be both anathema and estranged brothers at the same time.

If it can be done, please explain how Rome explains this contradiction. Thank you for being a major leader in semper reformanda.

That's Joe in Slovenia. Yes, well, I agree. I mean, welcome to the confusion club, because I'm confused as well when

I read those statements as well. So Joe's made a good point there. I think the major problem here is that the classical

Orthodox Roman Catholic theologians. Pope Benedict XVI was probably, in my estimation, the most dedicated pope to the historic

Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic Church. He was a scholar, he was a theologian, very well educated, and he once came out with an article several years ago before he ascended to the papacy, where he pointed out very clearly that the position of the

Roman Catholic Church has not changed in terms of salvation, that salvation is only to be found within the

Roman Catholic Church. He made that very clear. In fact, he was the director of the committee for doctrine and the faith of the

Roman Catholic Church. But then you get people like John Paul II, who was an ecumenist, where he would visit mosques and kiss the

Qur 'an, he would enter into temples, Buddhist temples, and so forth.

They saw no problem with this. And the present pope, Francis, who I am fully convinced is a cultural

Marxist, and has called capitalism a tool of the devil. The reason why we see this is because, once again, the

Roman Catholic Church does not believe in God's unchangeable, infallible, and the only rule of practice in faith, that being the

Scriptures, being absolutely authoritative. It holds to the sacred tradition, and within the scope of sacred tradition, they believe that they can be malleable, that they could adjust themselves to identify themselves with current society.

But it also shows a very dangerous trend within Roman Catholicism, as the Lady of Ankenos had pointed out, and that is,

Rome is moving towards liberalism, and there's a lot of compromise.

Many of the members of the Magisterium, it has been said in the days of John Paul II, he said that the spirit of Antichrist is blowing in the

Church, it's coming to the Church, because he knew that there were a number of cardinals in the Magisterium who were outright apostates.

So he has every reason to be confused. And this is what happens, once again,

I have to emphasize this point, this is what happens when you deny Sola Scriptura.

Yes, and could some of this be involved with, or could some of this very issue that our listener in Slovenia brought up, be involved in geography?

Is it that we are not in lands that are very free in regard to religion and freedom of speech, where Roman Catholics are a minority, where they have no real total saturation of a particular area?

We are hearing more from the tolerant bishops and clerics who are just blowing kisses to those in other religions, and basically opening their arms wide open for fellowship, whereas in some other areas, perhaps, where there is more of a domination of Roman Catholicism, there exist bishops and other clerics who are really old -school

Roman Catholics, but you don't hear much about them in the media. Is this really a public relations ploy?

Yeah, I tend to agree with you, that's why the media loves Pope Francis, because he is basically giving them a worldview that they can identify with and agree with.

But it's interesting that you raise that up, because when you look, this is why I refer to the

Roman Catholic Church as a chameleon, the chameleon changes its colors to adapt to its environment. And so the face of Roman Catholicism in America is not the same face of Roman Catholicism that you would see in Mexico or in Central America.

And it's interesting that when you look at these Roman Catholic dominant countries, I've always noticed a connection between dominant

Roman Catholicism and occultism. You'll notice that in the Caribbean, in South America, in Central America, where Roman Catholicism is rampant, you will notice that there's a high frequency of occultic practices as well, this mystical experience.

But at the same time, I remember reading John Paul II when he was viciously attacking many of the evangelical

Christians in Central America and South America that were preaching the Gospel there, and many people in South America and Central America, many of these people were abandoning

Roman Catholicism and joining the evangelical churches. In Brazil, for example, there's, which is, its majority country is

Roman Catholic, a lot of these Brazilians were leaving the Roman Catholic Church, and way back in the 90s,

John Paul II delivered, referred to them as wolves, and so forth, and yet in Vatican II, they're referred to as separated brethren.

So you're absolutely right, it's a different public relations depending on which part of the world they're in.

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Why is it that we as Reformed Christians do not consider

Roman Catholicism on par with Arminian soteriology? The Dutch Reformed Church clearly in the early 17th century declared the remonstrance as heretics.

Why is it that we are not saying the same? Synergism is a clear and unbiblical departure from the doctrine of salvation by grace alone.

That's Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island. Right. It makes a very valid point there.

When Arminianism branched out in Holland, in the Netherlands, under Jacobus Arminius, it's interesting that when

Arminianism began to flourish, the Dutch Reformed Church basically said to them,

I think this is very important, they basically said that you're basically, you are

Roman Catholicism without the Pope, you're a popeless Roman Catholic Church. And they're exactly right, because the doctrines of free will and the doctrine of the idea that God's grace can be resisted and that man can lose his salvation and so forth, these were the very same doctrines that Rome was teaching.

But I think there's a difference here. I mean, I wouldn't say that John Wesley, who was a strong Arminian and had his debates with George Whitefield, who was a

Reformed believer, I don't think anybody would say that John Wesley was a heretic or that John Wesley went off track.

John Wesley, I think, was one of the greatest reformers that God raised up in England and also influenced the

United States and all of North America. Charles Spurgeon once said that John Wesley would be nearer to the throne of God than he would be, that he would be one of the gems on the crown of the king of kings and so forth.

So I wouldn't go to the position to the extent of saying that our Arminian brothers are heretics.

I think that God has used people like Wesley and others, but I think that many of our

Arminian brothers are not aware of the fact that their roots are steeped in this

Arminian worldview that is, in many respects, commensurate with the

Roman Catholic view. And so while we can have in -house discussions and we can discuss these things and synergism and monergism,

I think many of our Arminian friends don't see that connection with Roman Catholicism.

But it does call us to challenge our Arminian brethren and it calls us to have table discussions about these very important matters.

And that is why, and let me add this too as well, Chris, if you notice in the history of the cults, for instance, none of the

Reformed churches have ever produced cults. All of the cults we see today, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, all of them that we see, all of them came out of the

Arminian branch of Christendom. Or you have people who have left the

Reformed churches, though. In other words, they may have been professedly Reformed, but they abandoned and condemned the

Reformed churches. Yes, yes. But all of the cults you see today, whether it's Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, all of them reject election and predestination and so forth.

They all hold to free will and hope that you can lose your salvation and so forth. And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that the evangelical

Arminianism that is dominant today was not the Arminianism of the remonstrance.

I have heard that there is... No, there have been changes. Yes. Right. And in other words, it's more biblical.

Yes, indeed. But then again, there's this sensational element there as well. And then, of course, if you look at, while I love

Dr. William Lane Craig, one of the main issues I have with him is he holds to Molinism.

And Molinism, of course, is a doctrine that came out of the Jesuit school by José María Molina.

And what does Molinism do? Well, Molinism basically tries to seek a balance between God's sovereignty and man's free will.

But that feeds right back into Arminianism again. So, open theism is not the child of Reformed theology.

Open theism came out of Arminian circles. Right. And in fact, the open theists call themselves consistent

Arminians. Right. And I guess I'm assuming you would agree with me that the reason why we would affirm many of our

Arminian friends as our brothers in Christ is because they are not logically consistent with the ways and the areas that they depart from us in regard to doctrine and soteriology.

They're not logically consistent. That's correct. And it's interesting that some of the most vehement anti -Catholics amongst our fundamentalist brethren are actually much closer to Roman Catholicism in their understanding of the will and of soteriology than they would be the

Reformers. That's right. That's right. Well, I want you to, over the next three minutes, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today when it comes to this subject.

What I want our hearers to come to terms with is that what we're talking about here, ultimately, there's a strong pull in our affiliation with our identity.

So those who are raised Roman Catholic, I was raised Roman Catholic, and in the Roman Catholic tradition, there's a very strong cultural tie there.

And many folks feel that if they leave the Roman Catholic Church that they are abandoning their identity, they're betraying their culture, they're betraying their family, and so forth.

That's something that I experienced on a personal level. But I think what really needs to be said is this, and that is that Rome is not preaching the gospel of grace.

The gospel that was preached by the Lord Jesus and by the apostles and those who followed them was the gospel of God's grace.

And what does that mean? It means that you as a sinner cannot save yourself. There's nothing that you can do to earn

God's approval. You are a sinner, you are lost, you are a rebel, you are sick with sin, and you need a

Savior. God provided that salvation through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. God loved the world so much that He gave

His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. The Church is not going to save you, the sacraments are not going to save you, your baptism is not going to save you.

You need the Lord Jesus Christ. It's only by faith in Him and in His finished work on Calvary that, and belief in His resurrection from the dead, that is what is necessary for salvation.

Salvation is a gift of God, it's not of works. And so if you're trusting your church, if you're trusting your priest, you're going to stand before God one day, and your entrance into Heaven is only through the blood of Jesus Christ.

And so I would plead with you, I would beg with you, to be reconciled with God. Repent from your sins, put your trust, believe on the

Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Amen, amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all the information that they need today in regard to contacting you and also attending the two events on Long Island, New York, where you'll be speaking.

Remember that if you would like to attend the Gospel of the Reformation 500th anniversary at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, call 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614, or you can go to WOTChurch .com,

WOT standing for Word of Truth Church .com, WOTChurch .com.

And then if you'd like to attend the Sunday morning worship services of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island, New York, you can go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net, or you can call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

The Toronto Baptist Seminary, if you'd like to find out more information about that seminary where Dr.

Tony Costa serves on the faculty as Professor of Apologetics and Islam, you can go to tbs .edu,

tbs for Toronto Baptist Seminary dot edu. Is there any other contact information you care to give

Dr. Costa for our listeners? Well, if they'd like to contact me, it's tmcos at rogers .com,

that's tmcos at rogers .com. If they want to connect with my website, all they have to do is just go to TonyCosta .web

.com, Tony Costa, one word, dot web .com. And Costa is spelled

C -O -S -T -A, and your email address is tm, as in Michael, c -o -s at rogers .com,

correct? Yeah, rogers, r -o -g -e -r -s .com. Well, thank you so much,

Dr. Costa. Thank you, Pastor Rich Jensen. Thank you, Reverend Buzz Taylor.

I want to thank everybody who listened to the program today, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater