Do Cessationists Think That the Holy Spirit is Inactive in the World?

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June 5, 2023

Is the Holy Spirit still active today? Join us as we respond to Mark Driscoll's views, exploring biblical evidence. Tune in for a spirited discussion on the modern-day workings of the Holy Spirit. ----------------------------------

00:00: Mean personally Like that sort of understanding of the
00:05: Holy Spirit. That's the one that sounds hopeless to me Not or not the you know, like hey the
00:11: Holy Spirit doesn't help us speak in tongues anymore Morning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences
00:20: These audiences may include but are not limited to professing Christians who never read their Bible So these sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white nights for men with man buns
00:28: Homemakers who have finished Netflix, but don't know how to meal plan and people who refer to their pets as fur babies your discretion is advised We're tired of hearing nothing, but doom and despair on the radio the message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone or forfeit any hope of salvation any hope of heaven
00:56: The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God is
01:04: Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon them.
01:10: And when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come They will be consumed and they will perish
01:17: God wrapped himself in flesh Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day
01:27: Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us
01:33: Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand
01:46: Welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions You're not allowed to ask we're your host
01:53: Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim Mullett and today. We'll answer the age -old question Do cessationists think the
02:00: Holy Spirit is inactive in the world now before we get started on this on this topic
02:06: Tim What Bible verse do you have to kick us off with? Yeah, Ephesians 1 13 through 14 says in him you also when you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation and believed in him were sealed with the
02:19: Holy Spirit a promise who is the guarantee of our Inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory, you know
02:26: That's this is a little bit off topic as we're getting right as we're getting started with the episode
02:32: Barely a minute in and I'm going I'm chasing around you're going to rope Yeah, I'm going rogue already, but I just wanted to say this is this is probably one of my personal
02:42: You know like top ten or top twenty verses in the Bible or passages in the
02:48: Bible Just because it's it's a pretty encouraging thing to think about the
02:53: Holy Spirit What what's being said here, you know, essentially what's being said is is for those who have put their faith and trust in Christ who have repented of their sins and called on the name of the
03:05: Lord in faith They are guaranteed to not be put to shame on the last day.
03:10: They're guaranteed to receive Eternal life because of what Christ has done on the cross and the
03:16: Holy Spirit is an active part of that You know that the passage that you're referencing is saying the
03:22: Holy Spirit is sealing us and acting as a deposit For the promised inheritance to come essentially so for me
03:30: That's always been such an encouraging thing to think through Especially as I think on my own life and think about all the ways in which you know all the ways in which
03:37: I've sinned throughout my life all the ways in which I've you know, I've Failed to live up to the standard even as a
03:44: Christian to the standard that that God has set for us it's such an encouraging thing to think the
03:50: Holy Spirit is acting as a you know a promise essentially that we will receive the
03:57: Inheritance of eternal life that Christ is one for us. So that's a pretty encouraging thing for me to You know think through Especially like the
04:07: Holy Spirit is doing that knowing that and other places in the Bible You know Christ has said that he's also holding us in his hands and the
04:16: Father is also holding us in his hands So it's like all three parts of the Trinity are working together to maintain our salvation for us and it's not something that we can lose
04:26: But the real reason we're talking about this today the real reason we're talking about the
04:32: Holy Spirit and and what does the Holy Spirit do and reading a passage like that that sort of give gives us a bit of insight into what the
04:40: Holy Spirit is doing is mainly in response to a Post that was made on Twitter You know,
04:47: I guess this last week From Mark Driscoll also talking about the
04:52: Holy Spirit and essentially he put he's I'm gonna read this tweet in a second but it's essentially a tweet trying to you know, trying to expose the
05:04: You know the failure on Cessationist part he does this I mean he's done this for years where he makes these can't make sees a straw man
05:13: Statements about cessation is that I mean it just you just wonder if he even understands what cessation is, right?
05:18: I mean This tweet is very very funny because you know, he is trying to prove like hey you guys you guys got it wrong but then and If you just read what he says, it's like I don't think we are obviously not having the same conversation right now
05:35: But I'll read this tweet from from Mark Driscoll. He said Cessationism would have you believe that Satan is still supernaturally active in the world
05:45: But the Holy Spirit is not that's hopeless Christianity So Tim, you know, what's your sort of immediate knee -jerk response to someone?
05:59: Making a claim like that. I mean, yeah, it's just a ludicrous claim to make I Mean, it's absurd.
06:05: I mean so like This is this is one of the things that Driscoll does on a regular basis is that he'll he'll basically caricature
06:14: The cessationist position and and basically what he's doing is he's saying that if the cessationist if cessationists do not believe and you know speaking in tongues or You know personal private subjectively interpreted revelation
06:29: So if if if cessationists do not believe the Bible is complete that God's still not giving words to the
06:36: Holy Spirit so if they they basically disagree with the charismatic on those two points that There's no spiritual benefit in You know gibberish like speaking gibberish and calling that the gift of tongues if you say hey the gift of tongues has fulfilled its
06:50: Function and God's no longer giving revelation. Then we must be people who think that the
06:56: Holy Spirit is basically doing nothing anymore So all that all that exposes is that he has no doctrine of the
07:03: Holy Spirit So he has no new bit ology beyond just the Holy Spirit doing crazy remarkable things, right?
07:08: Giving new revelation or you know helping believers speak in gibberish for some unknown reason
07:14: So that's basically the extent of his pneumatology. And yes, essentially the Holy Spirit only helps us do sign gifts and nothing else
07:23: Right, right, and that's what's so absurd about it. So like that's that's where you know
07:28: He's just exposing his lack of biblical pneumatology at that point. So Okay, like we understand that that you know, that's what he's saying now
07:38: Is You know, is that true? Is there like a In order to be a cessationist you have to believe that the
07:44: Holy Spirit is inactive and not only is the Holy Spirit inactive But like essentially
07:50: Satan Satan is more powerful than the Holy Spirit currently
07:56: No, yeah, it's just absurd. It's absurd. I mean the Holy Spirit has so many different roles and You know, it would do
08:04: Mark Driscoll well just to put some thought into what some of those roles are Beyond, you know the role of speaking in tongues and giving new revelation.
08:13: So beyond that role I mean obviously like the Holy Spirit has a lot of a lot of functions in the life of the believer in general
08:20: So the Holy Spirit is sent into the world Jesus says to convict the world of sin of righteousness of judgment
08:26: So like every time you feel conviction of sin That is the work of the
08:31: Holy Spirit, okay So the Holy Spirit gives gifts to men. So the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to men
08:39: So, you know the Holy Spirit has uniquely equipped like Spiritual gifts the purpose of spiritual gifts is that the body may minister to itself and build itself up and edify one another
08:49: And so what Mark Driscoll is trying like asking you to believe at that point apparently is the
08:54: Holy Spirit's doing nothing we don't have any that the only spiritual gifts that the like the
08:59: Spirit will give to believers are the ability to speak in gibberish and Give fellow believers like new personal private subjective revelation or something along those lines
09:09: So basically, yeah, he just has no concept of what a spiritual gift actually is because spiritual gift is given to edify the body
09:15: There's people who've been given the ability to help comfort people who are going through certain trials So, you know 2nd
09:21: Corinthians 1 talks about like blessed be the God and father of all comfort who comforts us when we are in any affliction in So that we may be able to comfort others with the same comfortable which we received, you know
09:31: So like the Holy Spirit is given to us to you know Help us to edify one another to build one another up to you know
09:38: Encourage so we admonish one another resort one another recorrect one another Rebuke one another
09:43: God's given us all unique talents abilities to minister to you know, the body in a wide variety of ways
09:49: So you have spiritual gifts are given to believers the verse we read at the beginning. The Holy Spirit is the seal
09:56: He seals us, you know, he's the seal of our salvation Guarantee of our inheritance I mean the only way we are able to persevere in the
10:02: Christian life is if we're given the Holy Spirit Who has come to indwell us and to you know, he's
10:10: You know, but the father the son the Holy Spirit they're all working at working together like it's a
10:15: Trinitarian act to secure our salvation, but the Spirit plays a role within that. So this the spirits convicting us
10:22: You know part of this Trinitarian role of securing our salvation The Holy Spirit regenerates us.
10:29: So the only reason why we're saved as Christians is because the Holy Spirit has regenerated our hearts. He's he's he's
10:37: Progressively conforming us to the to God's will right? So in that way
10:43: Let's see Let me see if I can figure out the verse. I'm thinking about along those lines
10:52: So if Christ is in you even though the body is subject to death because it's then the Spirit gives life because of righteousness and If the
10:59: Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal body who lives within you
11:05: So he he gives us life. God's began a good work in us. He's gonna be faithful complete complete that work
11:11: He's producing fruit, you know, the fruit of the Spirit's love joy peace long -suffering gentleness kindness meekness faithfulness self -control
11:17: So the Holy Spirit is working within us in a variety wide variety of ways fundamentally to conform us into the image of God So to save us like regenerate us conform us into God's image one day like he's we're gonna be finally sanctified
11:31: Perfected by the work of Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has all sorts of works. He helps us to minister to the body he intercedes for us like Like when we don't know how to pray for ourself as we ought
11:41: Holy Spirit has a wide variety of roles Mark just go says something like that. He just is reflecting his ignorance of what the
11:47: Holy Spirit's roles actually are. I get all that but is
11:52: That as cool as when I go gaga boo Bobby Bobby, blah blah To me,
12:03: I mean you look like a dork I felt kind of stupid doing it.
12:09: Yeah, especially because there wasn't even interpreter Yeah, yeah, so I mean if you want to look like an idiot and then just you know roll on the ground and you
12:18: Know speak gibberish and do all that kind of stuff. So I mean, I mean you do you right? but I mean then that's kind of what's happening is like Jesus says like a foolish and perverse generation seeks after signs and you have people who are
12:33: Basically bored with the ordinary. Yeah, the Holy Spirit. Yeah, and fixated on just like the supernatural
12:39: They're remarkable and so like in the minds of people like that like all the ordinary means to which
12:44: God uses to conform us To their image. They're not really all that interested It's not like when Mark Driscoll says things like that You know that he's like preoccupied with supernatural kind of stuff like this stuff is supposed to be impressive this stuff is supposed to be
12:57: You know extraordinary or whatever and he's like despised the ordinary But I mean like a mature
13:02: Christian like a mature Christian is gonna be an individual who wants to be holy, right? Right, like you want like and that's what
13:09: God, you know, God says like, you know, he For those who love him God works all things according to the good, right?
13:17: God works all things according to good to those who loved him to those who were called according to his name and the next verse Is for those whom he foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son
13:25: God has an agenda for our lives and that agenda is to make us more like him and the way he makes us more like him is by Giving us the scripture so we can know what his actual will is and then
13:38: Giving us the Holy Spirit who will convict us when we violate his will and produce in us the fruit of righteousness in that way and so what you have is you have a bunch of people who are just pretty, you know preoccupied with You know teachers show us a sign or something, right?
13:52: and and it feels like I mean that sort of mentality is really concerning because It I think ultimately what it's doing is it you're really exposing yourself more than you probably think you are when you say things like that because even
14:10: Even just calling those things, you know ordinary Is like is like I think pretty ignorant to what's actually going on, right?
14:19: So so like, you know, hey saying, you know, hey like the Holy Spirit is sealing us
14:27: For the promised inheritance to come as as a guarantee You know,
14:32: I don't think you understand but you have no right at all to ever claim something like that and God has done it on your behalf when we say that the
14:43: Holy Spirit is Regenerating us to new life so that we can be say we hear the gospel
14:48: And put our faith and trust in Christ and what he's a he's done on the cross like you're talking about Literal dead people
14:57: Literally coming to life and a spirit like in the spiritual sense, right? And it's like those are not ordinary things those do not happen
15:06: Like ever those don't happen every day without God's intervention in some way like a part from God Doing something for us.
15:15: None of that ever happens. And so for someone to come along and say hey, that's that's pretty boring
15:20: You know, like I would I would rather see someone I would rather see someone speak in tongues
15:25: Then you know and and if and if the Holy Spirit's not doing that then they must not be doing anything
15:31: Essentially like you're just exposing that like you really don't have any sort of genuine appreciation
15:38: For what God is doing to save people Right.
15:43: Well, that's so part of this goes hands in hand in hand with his rejection of Calvinism So he's you know, so on the one hand he's rejecting cow like he's rejecting
15:54: Cessationism and then that goes to hand in hand with his rejection of Calvinism And so he you know, he'll make the same kind of stupid tweets about, you know,
16:01: Calvinism being dumb and all that To you know from time to time and so but then if you you imagine what it's like in the
16:08: Arminian world You know often Arminian Arminianism and you know, the charismatic stuff kind of goes hand in hand a little bit, right?
16:17: In different ways, but but like you imagine like so in an Arminian kind of framework where you're rejecting
16:23: Calvinism You're rejecting the sovereignty of God and salvation. Then, you know, basically a lot of the main roles of the
16:29: Holy Spirit. You've basically Taken away. Yeah like meaning like so like if I if I if I come to Salvation by a libertarian act of my own free will right, right
16:45: So like I can choose to accept God or I can choose to reject him Like nothing is happening supernatural behind the scenes to change my heart of stone
16:53: Like regenerate me give me a heart of flesh if none of that's happening behind the scenes Then this is just all about a volitional act of my will.
17:00: Alright, so you get rid of the Holy Spirit's role of regeneration then I'm basically just kind of accepting
17:06: Christ on my own and then after that if you're getting rid of the role of the Holy Spirit in terms of Sanctification meaning
17:11: I can choose every day to obey God or not obey God without the Holy Spirit whatsoever, right? So you're getting rid of his role of you know
17:22: Regeneration you're getting rid of his role of Sanctification and then if you're getting rid of his role of like you're like he's sealing us, right?
17:30: So he's causing us to persevere. He's actively sanctifying us and conforming It's all this about I can fall away from the faith.
17:37: I want I don't have to fall away from the faith I want now that I don't know if Mark Driscoll holds that like in terms of you can lose your salvation for him
17:45: It might just be God declares. You're not guilty and then he'll never take it away Just no matter what you do You have no responsibility to persevere at that point, but you get rid of all that then like what you're doing is you have?
17:56: Like the only thing it seems like it's left to him and his mind is just like cool tricks.
18:01: Yeah. Yeah Because you just like removed all of his role in Like the entirety of sanctification in that way and then you know,
18:11: I mean obviously the Holy Spirit was sent by God to To basically help, you know, the
18:21: Apostles produce the scriptures, right? So beyond that, you know, I think Mark Driscoll would say yeah, he did that but he doesn't have anything to do with you know
18:31: Justification sanctification regeneration, you know perseverance Any of that? So then you're just wondering well, what does he do at that point?
18:38: Then he like he and the only thing left in his mind is just kind of the tricks so to speak Yeah, like what it like, you know, if you were to read that passage from Ephesians What does that passage even mean anymore then?
18:53: Like If the Holy Spirit is not active in this world, you know if you claim that he's not
19:00: Helping us to speak in tongues and and the other sign gifts What is Ephesians was is that Ephesians one?
19:08: Is that what it was? Yeah. Yeah What does Ephesians? What does Ephesians one even mean anymore?
19:14: Well, there are many ends are not very good at exige like the explaining what any of the
19:19: Calvinist versus quote -unquote me The Calvinist versus the Calvinist TM trademark
19:25: They're not good at explaining what they mean. Like all they can do is explain what they don't mean, you know
19:31: So yeah, they can't they I mean this is James White had a you know
19:38: Debate on Romans 9 I think with Layton flowers or whatever and you're James Where it was constantly commenting on him expecting
19:45: Layton flowers to actually exegete the passage Yeah, then all he did was just disagree with it and talk about other passages
19:53: Which I mean, you know, you you know That's what people do Like commonly that's you know, that's what they actually do right, but you would think okay, we're gonna have a debate
20:05: Maybe it would go different but like that's all I can do really. Yeah, I disagree Yeah, no my my the majority of my experience in life talking about what
20:13: I mean Not just a wide variety of subjects with people and you know talking about scripture is most of them just Telling me no, it doesn't mean that you know now now that's not to say every single person
20:28: There have been people who have tried to you know, say well, it doesn't mean that it actually means this instead
20:34: You know, so it's not like every single person Has been that way but the vast majority of them have just been a no
20:43: It doesn't mean that and now I'm angry at you for even suggesting that it means that and you know
20:49: I'm not going to give you any alternative to think about you know, so we have a troll
20:55: Yeah that comments on our Twitter post With his authoritative. I disagree
21:02: Okay, yeah, so, you know you make a claim and then he'll he'll show up to comment, yeah, it doesn't mean that It doesn't mean that goodbye
21:19: It's just like okay Thanks for that, you know, but yeah, I mean it is a pro trip pro tip
21:26: You know if if someone is not able to explain the actual meaning of the passage To you their disagreement with your interpretation.
21:34: You shouldn't really take that very seriously I mean, they're just playing the role of Satan at that point and saying did God really say but so I think you know
21:40: Mark Driscoll his rejection of Calvinism is going hand -in -hand with his embrace of Continuationism or rejection of cessationism and so basically like Though like all the roles of the
21:53: Holy Spirit that are tied to like God's work in salvation, you know Whether you're talking about justification sanctification
22:00: You know, whatever like all of his roles glorification all that like the
22:05: Holy Spirit's not doing any of that right and so then he's left with just Like a very limited understanding what the
22:12: Holy Spirit is actually doing in that way Mm -hmm, and then like an extremely limited like a very anemic understanding of the
22:19: Holy Spirit So then you have to like for him then it's just like well you have to he must do some tricks or something
22:25: Some magic tricks some yeah some part show that you're Sure that you're meaningful right like what that Holy Spirit like what do you do here?
22:36: What is it exactly that you do here, you know, so He's trying to give him a job. He's trying to empower.
22:41: He feels like the Holy Spirit's been disenfranchised and you know He's just gotta you know, find something for him to do now.
22:47: And so the only thing you can do is just Help us to speak gibberish and apparently give us personal private new revelation right now.
22:56: I mean personally Like that sort of understanding of the Holy Spirit.
23:01: That's the one that sounds hopeless to me Not not the you know, like hey, the
23:07: Holy Spirit doesn't help us speak in tongues anymore You know the Holy Spirit's not revealing new revelation to us
23:15: Anymore, that's all that's all done. We don't need that anymore Yeah, that that doesn't seem hopeless to me
23:22: What seems hopeless is the one that says the only thing the Holy Spirit does now is you know, basically like The sign gifts and that's it, you know, and it's probably not good for me to call them cheap parlor tricks
23:35: Yeah, it is. It's fine Well, you know I just think because like they did have a purpose that was meaningful because God used them for a specific purpose
23:44: And so I know but but I don't want to belittle the song gifts just because what they're not that but then yeah
23:51: But then like today Like there's there's no there's no need for any of that. We don't need any of that So like to try and force that on the
24:00: Holy Spirit because you don't understand what the Holy Spirit actually does That seems like that like if that's all he does now, that's all he does nothing else
24:09: That's the one that seems hopeless to me, you know, that's the way. Yeah, I think the difference over to me yeah,
24:15: I think the difference though is that like when you know, the charismatics are
24:22: Speaking in their gibberish basically Like that isn't actually the gift of tongues, right?
24:27: Right? Yeah, there's so it's like a cheap knockoff, right? Yeah, like it's not so like the gift of tongues was actually the gift of languages
24:34: Yeah to where they were speaking actual human languages yeah, that could be heard by people and what you in like languages have
24:44: Like like meaning so like if you walk through acts one of the things you're gonna find is like there's you know devout
24:50: Jews from all over, you know, the world essentially at that time and They're each each one of them are listening to them
24:57: Just listen to people speak in their own language And so what's happening is they're actually speaking like human languages at that point, right?
25:05: And they're not speaking like gibberish So it wasn't like the miracle wasn't a godly babu baba.
25:13: I want to buy a Honda Like it wasn't it wasn't like, you know, oh
25:20: You know like I so what's happening is when like linguistics when linguists have come along and Analyzed like the charismatic gibberish or whatever.
25:30: It bears like no features of actual of how actual human languages actually work Okay Because I mean, it's just like the way human languages work
25:39: You you don't have like a repetition of the same syllables over and over and over again Right.
25:46: So like if you say like, you know, ah Yeah, whatever like that doesn't have any like linguistic significance to it
25:57: Well, maybe they're speaking in angelic tongues Right, well, that's the claim that's being made but then if you think about how that would what
26:06: I'm trying to say is like when in the first century You know, it would have been as simple as you know,
26:13: Yokiro Taco Bell They were talking about Taco Bell back then
26:21: Now if I say that right like if I say that, you know what I said, right because I'm speaking an actual language
26:29: So if I were to say like Yokiro Taco Bell You know what
26:35: I said In a Mexican would know what I say, but it sounds like a language. Do you get what I mean?
26:41: Uh -huh. Yeah, because it actually is a language. Yeah, it is a language of speaking It's not gonna sound like gibberish
26:46: And so when you're making fun of like the point is when you're making what you're saying at cheap parlor trips What's happening is like that's just not what was happening, right?
26:55: You didn't have a bunch of people like speaking gibberish You had him speaking actual languages And you know, so then like what like so functionally what what they're doing is a cheap knockoff
27:06: It's not even like it's not even that the Holy Spirit doesn't do that anymore It's the Holy Spirit never did that period right?
27:14: Yeah talking about like what what charismatic people do now It's basically a distortion of what was actually happening
27:23: You know in the New Testament in the New Testament, right? Yeah, so I mean like first Corinthians 10 our first Corinthians 14 10 says this of tongues
27:33: It says there's doubtless many different languages in the world. None of them is without meaning But if I do not know the meaning of the language
27:40: I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker is a foreigner to me So with yourself since you are eager for manifestations of the
27:49: Spirit strive to excel when building up in the church All right. So like the idea there is like tongues was a language.
27:57: It was a human like it's it it was the Supernatural gift to speak a language like a human language.
28:03: You don't know right and other people can hear That's why you need like an interpreter, right? So that's what the whole thing actually is and and so what's happening is the charismatic movement
28:13: Basically has gotten in their mind that the gift of tongues was one person speaking gibberish and another people hearing it as language when what it what what it actually was was
28:23: One person speaking a language. They didn't know and another person hearing it as a real language that they didn't know, right?
28:32: So we spent we spent a lot of time talking, you know addressing Driscoll's tweet
28:38: You know talking about why it's ridiculous And honestly why it's a why it's a hopeless understanding of the
28:45: Holy Spirit Anyway, why it totally minimizes everything that the Holy Spirit actually does
28:52: So so then let's let's take some time to explain. Why why are we saying that this stuff is over?
29:00: When it comes to the the actual sign gifts like the things that charismatics would claim though that the
29:06: Holy Spirit is actually doing today Why do we say that those things are finished?
29:12: So when you think about like the sign gifts being finished this is really it's not really that difficult of a concept to grasp but then it's like It's something that the charismatic seemed to have a great
29:23: Difficulty try and trying to understand how sign gifts actually work so for instance when
29:32: Moses was going to speak to Pharaoh. He's he's he looks to God and he says well, how how is Pharaoh going to know?
29:38: That you sent me right, right So God gave him certain signs to perform so God gave him certain signs to perform
29:45: One of those signs was like a leprous hand He you know, he put his hand under his robe and bring it out and it's leprous
29:50: Yeah, the ability to you know, turn his staff into a serpent You know the ability to turn water into blood those were signs that were given to Moses now
30:01: Those are gifts like they're signed gifts, right? Yeah, so you think about how that works? No one is arguing for the continual like the continuation of all the sign gifts in the
30:13: Bible Right. So meaning like you don't have like the way that the continuationist logic works is
30:21: If there was a gift given it must be given Throughout all ages or whatever.
30:27: Yeah, but no one is ever. I don't see any charismatics performing the leprous hand I wouldn't I would be scared to Or the serpent staff right right or the so in that way they can't they know they can't turn water into blood
30:41: Leprous hand right, but those are gifts like they're signed gifts So but then like that tells you something about like the purpose of those gifts, right?
30:49: So like that like those gifts that were given to Moses had a purpose to validate Moses as God's Authoritative representative to Pharaoh, right, right
30:59: So they had a particular function that they were given in that moment to validate the messenger of God to say
31:06: Hey, this man is speaking authoritatively the words of God. You should listen to him So Paul talks about like, you know him being established as God's Messenger as well
31:16: So Samuel like you look the Old Testament Samuel was established as a prophet of God that you know
31:21: None of his words fell to fell to the ground Paul, you know, he says I performed the signs of an apostle among you with great patience, right?
31:29: So like like Paul God was doing extraordinarily extraordinary miracles through Paul Such that you know
31:36: Even his handkerchiefs or whatever would heal people during you know him being established as God's messenger
31:42: So like there's like God's give gave signs, right? That were intended to establish his messengers as speaking for him.
31:50: So of his you know his disciples Basically, he gave them power power over unclean spirits and you know authority over unclean spirit and power to heal every manner of disease
32:03: And in in that way that establishes them as a like one of his messengers essentially so you think about that God gave revel like God's God spoke.
32:13: He gave revelation to certain messengers So we're talking about like the gift of prophecy and you know
32:18: God had a revelation that he was going to give to man and that revelation was established through signs and wonders and Miraculous giftings, but he didn't give everyone those signs
32:31: Okay, right And the reason why I didn't give everyone those signs is because everyone wasn't his messenger who was speaking authoritative
32:40: Proclamations in his name In fact, there were there were like very strict penalties for someone who pretended to be a messenger, right?
32:49: Right. So in the Old Testament, like if if you have like a one strike and you're out kind of policy So if a prophet gives a baseball hasn't been invented yet, so they were just on the one strike policy not the three strike, right?
33:02: Right, right So if you know if a prophet presumes to speak a name word in the name of the Lord that does not come to pass
33:07: You're to kill him Because God takes his word that seriously like you you get a one strike and you're out kind of policy
33:15: Thank you, you know and then if a prophet makes a true sign and wonder Because there are false prophets in the world a true sign and wonder and there are demons, you know
33:23: There are spiritual powers well, and he teaches you rebellion against God you still to put him to death
33:28: So like the issue is like God takes his word very seriously people like there's a natural question that People are to have so if God gives like speaks through human beings
33:41: Like the question they might ask is well, how do we know like whether or not? This is coming from God or this is just you're high on drugs and have a you know, right an ego
33:54: All right, so you have a one strike and you're out policy that's the way it actually works then so God would give signs to people
34:03: To perform in order to let people know when they're speaking for him in that way
34:08: So, I mean that's how the sign gifts actually work again That's where you know when you're thinking about things along these lines
34:14: These sign gifts have certain functions in that way. Yeah, and if it so No one expects the lepers hand serpent staff water to blood to be continually binding and all along all ages
34:27: While taking a step back that you know tongues was a sign also and no one No one should expect that tongues should have continual
34:37: Relevance throughout the church age because it's accomplished its functions. I haven't seen many people, you know trying to call down she bears on people
34:48: All right, so now you think about what something like what tongues like what like in what way was it a sign and this is
34:55: Why people don't know Really what to do with it because they don't know that it's supposed to be a sign. Okay so, you know
35:03: Paul's talking about this gift of tongues in first Corinthians 14, and I'll just read a little bit and try to explain why
35:09: Tongues function as a sign. Okay, so Paul says nevertheless in church. I would rather speak five words within my mind.
35:16: So five words. That's a sentence, right? Yeah That conveys certain meaning I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others
35:24: Then 10 ,000 words, right? so that's the Greek word myriad like the biggest word in the
35:30: Greek language the biggest number in the Greek language than myriad of words in A you know foreign language a tongue a foreign language
35:38: Meaning like it's better to speak Like it's better to speak five words that people can understand
35:46: Then to speak words in a foreign language I mean everyone knows this like I mean so, you know,
35:51: I could just make a statement to say I Believe the Bible that's one sentence.
35:56: Everyone knows what I said, you know, but if I were to like speak Hebrew or something, you know by heed of our
36:02: Adonai Elion a main Amitai Kumbh like El Ninveh high ear hagana god
36:08: Allah ukara. I ha killed hot rod Tom left night I can keep on going but no one knows what
36:15: I just said That wasn't the longer me at all. All right, but the longer I go on the more annoying it gets right, right?
36:22: Yeah It just gets more annoying and not more annoying and more annoying. No one understood anything to just happen, right?
36:29: I mean, it's kind of cool at first and then it's like oh, you're oh, you're still going Shut up, right?
36:36: All right, so First 20 brothers do not be children in your thinking be infants and evil
36:42: But in your thinking be mature and the law is written by people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to these people and even then they will not listen to me says the
36:50: Lord So basically they're preoccupied their fat and they're fascinated with this gift of tongues. They want to keep on like, you know
36:57: They're trying to mimic it like the way the pagans did at the time by doing the gibberish and all that But Paul saying like don't be childish, right?
37:06: So don't be childish be infants and evil, but in your thinking be mature So don't be childish like meaning like but getting a bunch of you together speaking a bunch of gibberish that no one can understand
37:17: That's not doing anything for anyone right right, right So now he says don't don't be children in your thinking now in the law
37:24: It was written by people of strange tongues and the lips of foreigners, right? So in the law is written by people of like foreign languages, right?
37:34: By lips of foreigners. I will speak to this people and even then they will not listen to me says the Lord He says thus like so, you know, the law talks about tongues
37:43: We're gonna come right people are gonna speak in foreign languages That's what happened at Pentecost where everyone heard them speaking in their own language.
37:49: So the glories of God Why did that happen? Right? It didn't happen to be a parlor trick, right? Why did it happen?
37:55: It says he says thus tongues are a sign not for believers, but for unbelievers Well prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers, but for believers
38:04: So his point there is just to say like in the law it predicted by people of strange tongues
38:10: I will speak to the Jews and they will not listen to me, right? Uh -huh. So what Pentecost did was
38:16: Pentecost was a sign of judgment against the Jews To say that there's people who are gonna speak in foreign languages
38:24: So now God's moving from the Jews to the Gentiles, right? Now the Gentiles are gonna speak the words of God and even then the
38:31: Jews will not listen to them that was a sign of judgment on them and that was a sign that basically says that God is moving from like predominantly a
38:40: Like being a Jewish Filled church to now the church is going to be full of Jews and Gentiles Which is why
38:46: I mean you have like Pentecost where you know, it's mostly Jews speaking in different languages Then you have the
38:52: Samaritan Pentecost and then you have like the you know, the Greek the Gentiles and all that it's just a sign of judgment against the
39:00: Jews that God is moving away from the Jews to the Gentiles At this point and that's that's what it did like it was a unique It like they were unique events in salvation history to show that God is judging the
39:11: Jews. He's moving away from the Jews now It's done. It's done. So it was predicted it came it's done.
39:17: There's no point in it So like now when people are claiming to speak in just like in tongues today
39:24: What further need do we have? to tell the Jews That God has moved away from them and now his base of operations is within the
39:33: Gentiles that point has been established And that that tells you why like tongues wasn't meant to be like a continual thing throughout the history of church
39:42: It happened very in the very early church and they moved on and you know first Corinthians one of the first letters happened the very early church moved on and None of the rest of the
39:52: New Testament letters even remotely talk about it because it stopped happening Because it like the sign had fulfilled its function in the same way that you know, you put your staff down in front of Pharaoh staff changes
40:04: You don't need to constantly Throw your staff down throughout the history of the church to show
40:10: Pharaoh. Yeah again, right that Moses was God's messenger Hey, we're still telling you Pharaoh, even though you're dead that yeah
40:17: Like that's not the way it works. This is how sign gifts work. So right? Yeah, and then you even have like You know
40:23: Hebrews 1 the first few verses of it where it says God after he spoke long ago to the fathers and the prophets and many portions and in many ways in these last days
40:34: Has spoken to us in his son whom he appointed heir of all things through whom also he made the world
40:42: So you have like a pretty clear statement. I mean Jesus calls himself, you know, the Word of God, right?
40:47: John John calls him the Word of God and so we can understand what's being said here is, you know
40:53: For for a very long time God used He used prophets.
40:59: He used apostles He used some sort of messenger to convey his word to the people and that's how we got the scriptures to begin with But then now that we have them
41:11: We don't have any more need of them because he's given us his word, right? He's spoken through his son and I remember
41:19: I Spoke there's a guy I talked to a younger guy Who he he called me one day because someone had pointed him to me.
41:29: He he was wanting to be A worship leader, I think and so he was asking me.
41:36: Hey, what do I do? You know, like like what do you recommend? I do. What do you recommend?
41:42: I work on to try and pursue this goal and So I was talking to him just trying to get to know him and and somewhere along the line, you know
41:51: I was asking him about his testimony. How did he become a Christian and he explained to me, you know well here here's here's what happened, you know,
42:00: I I Was a guy who was constantly strung out on drugs
42:06: You know and like I was like going to the hospital. I was OD 'ing all the time
42:11: I was living a terrible life and one day, you know, I OD 'ed on whatever it was he was taken
42:19: I can't remember and He was in the hospital and he said that you know when he was in the hospital
42:26: It was at night while he was alone he woke up and he said that Jesus came to visit him and told him that he needed to Believe in Jesus, right?
42:37: And so so he said so he said he did that and then from then on he started living as a
42:43: Christian and so so I just kind of you know, I just read him that verse and I was like what do you think about that verse and And that's where the conversation really took a turn
42:56: You know where I didn't even say anything about like he wasn't a Christian I didn't say anything about like anything to do with like the spiritual his spiritual condition
43:09: Currently because I still didn't know He could have had some like he could have had that whatever that experience was and then later on in life
43:18: He you know as he's putting himself around Christians, you know The Holy Spirit's working in him and his heart and he realizes that he just does actually believe
43:28: What the Bible says and he puts his faith in Christ repents of his sins that could have happened
43:33: I don't I don't you know, like I don't know that that hasn't happened but I'm did
43:39: I read him this verse in response to that specific instance that he claimed happened in the hospital that night and Immediately what happens is is he jumps to you know, so you're saying
43:50: I'm not a Christian You know, I know I I didn't say you weren't a Christian You said that I didn't say that I'm just reading you a verse and you know asking you to tell me what it means in The context of like you're saying
44:05: Jesus came to visit you and gave you a special Revelation for you. So so what like what does this verse mean?
44:13: And you know what and he never gave me What he thought like well here here's what
44:19: I think it probably means and here's what I think it means for you know The like the event that I'm telling you happened.
44:26: He didn't give me any of that he just immediately went to so you're saying I'm not a Christian and then
44:33: After I said, no, I didn't say that. I have no idea if you're a Christian or not You very well could be for all
44:38: I know He he immediately went to after that just uh, well, I don't
44:44: I don't even know if I believe in Jesus anymore Yeah, that's the problem with the charismatic
44:52: I Mean that's the problem with the charismatic religion essentially is that I really do think it is a different religion fundamentally
45:00: So you have one religion that's based off of like God's revel it. I you think about religions like what are features of religion?
45:08: Religions in general and God like the Christian religion like the biblical religion is is based on Jesus's words, right?
45:14: Right, so it's based on God's words throughout history Which climax like climax in the revelation of Christ a man and that revelation came in two phases.
45:22: So You know essentially Jesus Luke says and you know in Luke You know,
45:31: Oh Theophilus I've Undertaken to write a careful account of the office so you may know with certainty the things with which you've been commanded
45:41: So like the first like, you know, the Gospels their record of all that Jesus did and taught right? So he wants
45:47: Theophilus to know with certainty all the things that Jesus didn't taught then when you get to acts He says in the first book of Theophilus I've dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach until the day when he was taken up After he had given commands to the
45:58: Holy Spirit to the Apostles whom he had chosen So what you have is you have like the revelation of Christ coming in two phases
46:05: First it comes in Jesus's earthly ministry while he was alive Like giving commands to his
46:11: Apostles and then afterwards like he says I have more to teach you You know in the upper room. I send you a helper.
46:17: He's gonna guide you into all truth He's gonna take my words and declare him to you so he gave he gave commands afterwards to his
46:23: Apostles and so you have like the Christian religion is a It's a religion based on the revelation of God to man centered in Jesus You know first component being his teaching during his earthly ministry his second component being his
46:40: Commands he's given to this Apostles whom he has chosen, but then the charismatic religion I mean, it's just a whole nother religion is based on just the
46:47: Holy Spirit's objective private personal revelation directly to people and When you take that away from them, they have nothing left because they don't really care about objectively what
46:58: God said this word Right, like the whole thing is about what is God saying to you personally? Like that's just the source of that like authority within that religion and you know
47:08: I've cared I've been involved in care counseling plenty of charismatics and you can't get them to do anything
47:14: The Bible says right at all. They don't care what the Bible says. It's not about that It's about like the real stuff like the real stuff happens with the supernatural the supernatural stuff
47:24: That's all it's about So it's like a people who are preoccupied like with signs and wonders and you know fake miracles
47:31: And then they're running around like telling making authoritative proclamation proclamations of what
47:36: God is saying to them Like to themself and to others and so they're like their whole religion is based on like this personal
47:43: Revelation right God is making Directly to them and to the extent to which people like are caught up in that they don't care about the
47:50: Bible, right? And the reason that's so the the reason that's so like such a hopeless idea is just because it's like all it took
47:58: Talking to this guy. I said nothing about his spiritual condition. I read a
48:03: Bible verse in The context of like him telling me that Jesus visited him and I read a
48:10: I read I read literally two Verses and that was all it took for him to you know
48:17: Question everything that he knew whereas, you know I guarantee you anyone who anyone who has had someone approach them and Share in love share the gospel with them and then that person hearing the gospel
48:31: Decides, you know, they they believe they repent of their sins. They get baptized.
48:37: They join a church They start pursuing, you know righteousness Anyone who anyone who
48:45: Comes to faith that way Putting their you know hearing the words of God meaning the scripture proclaimed to them by other people
48:53: They're not going to just immediately question their salvation Every time someone reads a
49:00: Bible verse like for me personally if someone were to come along and say hey, you know what? I don't think you're a Christian.
49:05: I would say Okay Well, I remember we we had that conversation you were can you were conflicted about it, right?
49:13: It's right because you you realize that you had talked this person off the ledge Yeah, I mean like in the wrong way
49:23: I Mean I remember you asking me should I have said that right or did I say the right thing because like I wasn't trying to You know fundamentally
49:31: You know altered this man's entire world now He doesn't even know if he's a Christian or not right, and I remember looking at you and basically making that point that hey man, like If someone were to do that to you would your entire world crumble to the ground and would you be questioning?
49:48: You know your salvation the reality of God Someone came along and said hey, yeah, they disagree with you.
49:55: It's like oh, no, absolutely not, you know So like all you did was just reveal like This religion is based on a you know bad foundation
50:05: House of Cards, you know, right? Yeah, and so I think I think to me that's that's really a big part of why this talk about what is the
50:13: Holy Spirit? Actually, what does the Holy Spirit actually do it's such an important thing because you know, like let's be honest for all
50:21: I know That guy telling me the story about Jesus coming to visit him for all I know that was a demon
50:27: Like visiting him, you know, and because that that is a thing that can happen you know and and I know what
50:33: God's Word has said about these things and so I don't want him to be led astray and so You know like yeah, sure.
50:41: That sounds harsh to say like, oh, well you you know You obviously must have done something wrong because of the outcome, right?
50:49: Like that that's sort of the knee -jerk response people have but then the reality is, you know That person was probably living a lie if that's all it took for them to question everything
51:01: They were probably living totally deceived and no one said anything to them
51:06: Until you know until I did now that that's not like I don't want to you know Without God's help
51:13: I never would have done anything like that, you know, so that's like praise praise to God not me but like he was living a lie and he was going to continue to live that lie and Like, you know
51:28: God forbid that one day he be one of those people that he dies and he goes before God on the final day
51:35: You know and he says like you know, like hey, I'm here, you know I lived a life
51:41: I tried to live my life as best I could for you and then God looks at him and says depart from me
51:47: I never knew you You know, like I mean, that's a terrible fate and people were leaving him to that and all it took is you know
51:54: All it took was reading two verses two sentences from God's Word and that dismantled everything that he believed in So, you know, that's what
52:04: I think is hopeless The kind of worldview that looks at looks at the Holy Spirit for example and says you know, the
52:11: Holy Spirit is resigned to helping me, you know speak gibberish and You know
52:17: Proclaiming that there's no future and you know, I get to I get to heal people by Lengthening their one leg back to the same length as the other one and that's all
52:27: I can ever do I can't ever like go, you know go to the hospitals in 2020 and heal all the people of kovat
52:35: I can't go do that, but I can I can lengthen your leg if you want That that's what seems hopeless to me that that seems like it.
52:43: I mean just a total like blasphemy essentially of the Holy Spirit in terms of Like you're bait.
52:51: You're basically just saying the Holy Spirit is weak unless he can do these things that I've decided are You know demonstrations of strength
52:58: Basically and I would hate for anyone to view the Holy Spirit that way especially
53:04: Knowing that there are so many things that the Holy Spirit is doing within the world right now that are are legitimate miracles like Regenerating people to new life is a legitimate miracle
53:20: Anytime someone puts their faith and trust in Christ that is a legitimate miracle that was brought about by the
53:26: Holy Spirit by Christ and by the Father and if you look at That and you say that's not that's boring.
53:33: That's not cool. You know, we need to we need people talking in tongues We need people telling us what's gonna happen in the future.
53:40: I mean, that's just like That's borderline infuriating
53:46: I Mean like I'm getting myself worked up a little bit because like God is doing so much for nothing anathema
53:54: Yeah, yeah, like I'm you know, like a paragraph away from that, you know Like God God is doing so much for us that none of it we deserve.
54:04: Well, I think yeah I think once you reject the sovereignty of God in salvation Then you kind of get to this point where you don't really know what else the
54:13: Holy Spirit is doing today you know, he did things in the past to produce the revelation that we have but then
54:19: You reject like you reject his sovereignty and salvation and then you're put in this position where I guess
54:26: I don't know what he does anymore Right, right century. I mean, but when I say that I don't mean just like Justification but also sanctification, right, right
54:34: So justification sanctification the Holy Spirit is doing so much right now in terms of the entire order of Saludis Like justification sanctification glorification.
54:43: He's doing so much and That you know to the to the
54:49: Armenian charismatic, I don't know what he does right that's kind of where you get right, okay
54:55: Well, I think that's a good place for us to end this conversation on and you know Just in closing.
55:00: I think the final thing that I would want to say is, you know, Gaga boo Bobby blah blah blah blah I want to buy a Honda You know, so hopefully that's that was hopefully that's encouraging for you.
55:10: And you know that leaves you with That's a stupid man, no, I mean
55:16: Obviously, that's that's fool. I received that brother. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Are you gonna be that bless me my interpret my interpreter here?
55:26: No, but you know, obviously there's a lot of problems with this sort of with this sort of Understanding of the
55:34: Holy Spirit and like we were saying earlier It's it's crucial that we understand what the
55:39: Holy Spirit is actually doing Because if we if we don't then it really opens us up to essentially almost looking looking at what
55:51: God is doing in terms of bringing us to salvation Looking at that with scorn almost or you know, no appreciation whatsoever
56:00: Whereas as you read through the Bible I mean read through the Psalms and you just see so many times how they're praising
56:05: God For salvation and how he is how he has saved them and irredeemable people time and time again and that should be our attitude and When we look at the when we look at the
56:16: Holy Spirit the way that Mark Driscoll is suggesting that we look at the Holy Spirit you're opening yourself up to Totally rejecting a biblical view of the
56:26: Holy Spirit and of salvation itself So this is an important topic that we need to be well versed on and understanding what the
56:33: Holy Spirit actually does So hopefully this has been helpful for you guys We appreciate all the all of the support that you show us week in and week out financially on social media interacting with us, you know telling us
56:47: The ways in which the episodes have really been a help to you and encouraged you We would encourage you to you know, go out and and take the things that you're learning here
56:56: Don't just keep them for yourself, but then talk to you know Your talk to your brothers and sisters in Christ about these things
57:03: So that you can encourage them to you know, use these things as you're sharing the gospel Hopefully they're an encouragement for you to be bold and sharing your faith and not worrying about the outcomes leaving the outcomes up to God and just Worrying about am
57:18: I being faithful and actually telling people the gospel itself? That's our hope anyway, so we thank you guys and we'll look forward to having you on the next one
57:29: This has been another episode of Bible bashed we hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion
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