The Bondage of the Will

The Meaning of the Debate and the Doctrine of the Trinity

Well, good evening to you. My name is Matt Friedman. I'm Professor of evangelism discipleship at Wesley Biblical Seminary and so very delighted to be with you here this evening. I do want to tell you that when I accepted this role in This evening. I did not know that I was going to be teaching a class this evening as well.

So my life has gotten complicated. So we're gonna kick this off this evening and as the evening rolls on Dr. Steve Sukkos will be taking my place as moderator and he is a professor of apologetics at Wesley Biblical Seminary, but we just want to tell you as Dysfunctional as the moderation might be we think it's going to be a great time tonight of discussing this issue.

First off I want to thank so very much the Deep South regional founders conference For putting on a conference on God and three persons blessed Trinity. I'm not sure you could talk about anything more important at any conference anywhere this is a vital thing and we just need to know the impact of that for our life for our living and Obviously for our Orthodox Christian faith.

So thank you for doing this. I also think it's a great thing that we're having this debate this evening this discussion. We have two Seminaries in this town that are credited by the Association of Theological Schools.

I think we ought to do this a lot more just my humble opinion, but I think it's a good thing a healthy thing. We're so very delighted that you're here with us tonight. I'm going to introduce to you the gentleman that came this evening.

Dr. James White is a director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. It's a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. He's the author of more than 20 books a Professor a debater and an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and we want to say to you dr White welcome to the Jackson metro area.

We're so very delighted that you're here. Dr. Steve Blakemore is an assistant professor of philosophy and moral theology at Wesley Biblical Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi. He's the executive director of the Institute for third millennium faith and co-founder of resurrection youth ministry.

Welcome. Dr. Blakemore. We had a flip of a coin a few moments ago and dr White will be going first and he'll be going first the rest of the evening as by the rules agreed upon before. Any of us really showed up.

We're very grateful that the opening statements will come out to 18 minutes apiece and then after that there's going to be some rebuttals and those will be 10 minutes apiece and Then after that there's going to be a love offering.

I'll be generous with the love offering. Will you? These guys need to feel your love after that then. There's going to be a cross-examination time where they'll be asking one another questions. We look very forward to that and then of course there's going to be closing statements by each of them of 10 minutes apiece.

And of course, we do want to throw it open because we know you might have some provocative questions to ask and we can't wait. For those so that will be the format this evening Dr. James White. Thanks again.

So very much for coming and you're up first.

It is a privilege to be with you. I think I'm here. Anyways, I started in Phoenix got up before three o 'clock this morning. So I cannot guarantee the orthodoxy of anything that comes after about nine o 'clock tonight.

So I'm getting to that age where you know, I need to get to bed nice and early. So I'm not sure how long the fellowship afterwards is gonna last but I'm not sure I'm gonna be there. Why in the world we be revisiting a debate that has been going on for a very very very long time.

Didn't Erasmus and Luther get it all taken care of quite some time ago. Well, I think if you asked either one of them, they would have said to you. No, not really. Luther certainly thought his work on the bondage of the will was one of the most important books that he had written.

I'm not exactly sure what Erasmus thought but I'm certain that he was not convinced. By Luther's diatribe. So why are we here? Well because every generation has to think through very clearly what we believe not only about God's sovereignty.

How God knows what he knows what God's decrees include and do not include if we take that type of theology. But we also have to very much understand what we believe about man. We live in a day where man is exalted tremendously where a man is considered to be the measure of all things and.

So we are on constantly under pressure to adopt the world's perspective of man's capacities and man's will we need to in Each generation and sometimes multiple times in one generation. Review what the Word of God says concerning the subject of the nature of man's will.

Speaking of Luther and Erasmus. I am reminded of what Luther said to Erasmus about this very issue. He said moreover I give you hearty praise and commendation on this further account. That you alone in contrast to all others have attacked the real thing.

That is the essential issue. You have not wearied me with some extraneous issues about the papacy purgatory indulgences and such like trifles rather than issues in respect of which almost all to date have sought my blood though without success you and You alone have seen the hinge on which all turns and aimed for the vital spot.

Now Luther was talking about what what was the hinge upon which all turns the entirety of the Reformation? Here Luther recognized that whether man's will is in bondage to sin Needing to be freed by the powerful grace of God or whether the will was as Romans as the Roman Catholic Church said Still had an element of freedom to it while grace was necessary.

They reject Pelagius in his entire position. Still their semi Pelagian perspective was that God's grace could bring you to a sort of moral neutral point. And then you could decide from there. Luther recognized that this was the very issue upon which everything else turned.

Charles Spurgeon said it rather well long ago. In fact in 1856 How certain then is the salvation of every elect soul. It does not depend on the will of man. He is made willing in the day of God's power.

He shall be called at the set time and his heart shall be effectually changed. That he may become a trophy of the Redeemer's power that he was unwilling before is no hindrance. For God giveth him the will so that he is then of a willing mind.

Thus every heir of heaven must be saved because the Spirit is put within him and Thereby his disposition and affections are molded according to the will of God. Obviously the primary focus this evening has to be upon what Scripture itself testifies concerning ma 'am.

If we were to simply follow the psychology of today We would have absolutely no guidance for you can find in the psychology of today Every kind of theory every whim every movement. It would change by next week by the next time the new psychology journal was published.

Instead we have the unchangeable Word of God that gives testimony to man's nature and no matter how We progress in our technology man's nature does not change. We are told in Genesis 6 5 that Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that Every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Do we believe these words? Are these just hyperbole. Is this just mean that man was really sinful, but there were still some really good folks around. No I think that the words need to be taken the way they are and Even though in comparison of these men Noah was found to be a holy and righteous man.

We know from the story of Noah. Well, he was not perfectly righteous. Indeed mankind was very sinful very early on the Prophet Jeremiah Testifies this very deeply throughout his book. We can only look at a couple of things that he says, but he asks us the rhetorical question.

Can the Ethiopian change his skin or leopard his spots then also you can do good who are accustomed to doing evil? Can the can that animal change his nature his appearance? Certainly not than those who are accustomed to doing evil cannot do that, which is good.

Jeremiah 17 9 tells us the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick who can understand it. Well, thankfully God can't understand it through his word. He can give us understanding but we and of ourselves can understand it because of its desperate sickness.

The Apostle Paul brought together the entire witness of the Old Testament to the deadness of man and sin. And he says as it is written. None is righteous. No, not one. No one understands. No one seeks for God.

All have turned aside together. They have become worthless. No one does good not even one. And then he finishes this katina of passages with this tremendous Statement there is no fear of God before their eyes.

What a statement to be made about mankind who is created in the image of God and yet in and of himself. Outside of the redeeming grace of God there is no fear of God before his eyes. We don't even fear our own creator.

How can this be? What is the depth of the depravity of man that this would be the result and yet? We know this is Paul's Intentional conclusion because he is closing every door to any type of possibility of self-righteousness.

He's now about to introduce us to justification by grace through faith. And so he is shutting down any Avenue whereby someone might be able to claim righteousness before God. The same thing is true when he speaks the Ephesians in Ephesians chapter 2.

He says. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked. Following the course of this world following the prince the power of the air the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh carrying out the desires the body in the mind and were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind. That sounds like it's a rather sweeping indictment on the part of the Apostle Paul of all of mankind.

But God being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us. Even when we were dead and our trespasses made us alive together with Christ by grace. You have been saved. Notice on man's part depravity sinfulness a slavery to sin.

But God being rich in mercy because the great love with which he loved us. Even when we were dead in our trespasses now if we're gonna say there's some kind of a of a middle act of God. Where he doesn't actually make us alive.

But he only makes us capable of somehow doing something. Where is this in the text? This seems to be regeneration. We were dead. We were made alive. We were made alive together with Christ. This is clearly forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians chapter 1 which would just had been written by the Apostle Paul. By grace you have been saved. Anyone who has experienced this merciful Redemption from slavery is one of those spoken of in Ephesians 1 as having received the saving grace of God.

But tonight we are specifically addressing the bondage or freedom of the will and I think there are a couple of Texts that directly address this and I want to spend most of my time or at least half the time I have left on these key texts.

Jesus his own words in John chapter 8 lay this out. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed him if you continue in my word Then you are truly disciples of mine and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free.

They answered him. We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone. How is it you say you will become free. Jesus answered them truly truly. I say to you everyone who commits sin is the slave of Sin.

Here the Lord Jesus speaks to men who believed in their own freedom. Even though they were under the heel of Rome they could actually say we have never yet been enslaved to anyone. Well, in fact, they had been enslaved to many people in the history of Israel.

They were in self-deception. But what is beyond that is they were offended they the text had said they had believed in Jesus. It was an heiress faith not a continuing faith, but they had believed in Jesus and when Jesus then spoke to them of Continuing his word Then they would truly be disciples and you know the truth and the truth will make you free as soon as he said that.

Oh the response of these individuals they are offended at the message that they need to be made free. Jesus's response to their argument. Is that everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin now. We need to understand that term slavery in the context of which it was used in the ancient world and a slave couldn't just simply Decide to not be a slave anymore.

That wasn't just a position He had put himself in he may not have even voluntarily done. So and so Jesus's statement is everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin? I think when we come to the question of freedom or bondage Jesus's words need to take preeminence in our Understanding.

In that same text Jesus said to the Jews. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you are not able to hear my word if we are free if our wills are not bound. If we are not the fallen sons of Adam if our wills are not bound.

Why is it that they are not able to hear Jesus's word? He then said whoever is of God. Here's the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God. Now I think it's very important to look at exactly what Jesus is saying he says notice we're at a seminary.

So we might as well look at the original languages. He says you are not able to hear my word and For this reason you are not hearing. Because you are not a tooth a you you are not of God. Notice it is being of God or not of God that determines the capacity or ability to hear not the other way around as is the case in so much of evangelicalism today.

In John 6 44 Jesus's words are stark and plain. Jesus answered and said to them do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

Once again, we have the inability of man. No one has the capacity or ability to come to me unless something happens. Unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day if someone's going to say well.

The father draws everyone. Well, then you need to be a universalist. Because as you look at the text. Anyone who is drawn by the father to the son is raised up by the son on the last day to eternal life.

And so Jesus says you don't have the capacity. You don't have the ability to come to me. He was explaining why he had just said to Jews who had rode across a lake to come hear him speak. You are unbelievers.

Because they weren't coming to him for the right reason. They did not see that. He was a source of spiritual life. They were looking for the food. They were looking for the miracles and Jesus is explaining their unbelief.

Beginning at verse 37 in the terms of the sovereignty of God and his giving to the Son. But I think almost no text is more plain than this text from Paul's words in Romans chapter 8. He says for the mind set on the flesh is death.

But the minds that on the spirit is life and peace because the minds on the flesh is Hostile toward God for it does not subject itself to the law of God. For it is not even able to do so. And those who are in the flesh Can not please God once again.

We need to hear what the inspired word is saying twice. We are told does not have the ability does not have the capacity. There are those who are according to the flesh. They are not according to the Spirit.

We know in Scripture that we have those who are dead in their sins. Those who have been made alive in Christ those who are right with God those who are not right with God here we have those who according the flesh and those who according the spirit and Those who are according the flesh are not capable of Subjecting themselves to the law of God.

Now does not the law of God say repent is not the the message that has been trusted to us to go into all the world. And What did Paul say in Acts 17. God commands men everywhere to do what to repent? That's what God's law says but God's Word also says that there is something wrong with man is Repentance something that is pleasing to God is Faith something that is pleasing to God.

Well, then the question would be if we cannot subject ourselves to the law of God. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God then how can we do those things that are self-evidently pleasing to God?

When the statement is made directly there They are not able to do what is pleasing to God. There has to be a radical change now. Our discussion this evening may start off on the wrong foot to be perfectly honest with you.

Because when we think about it There is I believe a truth that comes before the discussion of man's depravity. There is a truth that is prior to this that is not really a part of our debate. We may have to touch upon it.

But I believe that the best place to start in this discussion is to begin with who God is. What his nature is his timelessness his sovereignty his decree how he has knowledge of future events. And His freedom because I do believe in the freedom of the will.

I believe in God's freedom of his will and I believe that in his freedom. He has created a world in which he is glorifying himself. Sometimes this debate can miss the heart of the issue because it's focused upon the creature rather than the creator who made the creature and defines the creatures purposes and.

So if I might in the last two and a half minutes I have to my presentation Provide that type of a foundation. I believe the biblical testimony is clear now. We can argue all night about well, then why does God plead with man?

Well, because God ordains the ends as well as the means and he has chosen to glorify himself by the means of preaching the gospel. First Corinthians chapter 1 says that's the very means by which God has made has nullified the wisdom of the world.

He is decreed the means by which we are to come to him. But fundamentally what it really boils down to is if we remain focused upon us as creatures. I don't think we're gonna see the full orb truth of what scripture says.

I believe we have to step back and just as our overall conference this week is God in three persons Blessed Trinity. We need to see that fundamentally the message of scripture is what the triune God is doing to glorify himself.

If We see ourselves as the center then we're not going to understand the balance of what scripture presents. If we see that the Father is the very source of salvation the fountainhead of the decree of salvation The Eternal Son made flesh becomes the very means through incarnation his perfect life his death his burial his resurrection by which God is able to justly deal with man's sin to provide perfect redemption and then the spirit is the one who comes and Brings us to spiritual life then we can understand the metaphors that are used in scripture.

Taking out a heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh the spirit. Breathing upon the valley of dry bones and they come together and and they're brought to life. We can understand all those things not because we focus upon hearts of stone and hearts of flesh.

But because we see God is about glorifying himself in the person of Jesus Christ and the salvation of an elect people in him. And so I think there's a bit of a danger in just looking at this one aspect.

And so I want to at least provide that snapshot that that larger panorama. That provides the context in which we see the biblical testimony concerning the fact that the fallen sons and daughters of Adam are indeed slaves to sin and Outside of the grace of God that brings spiritual life and freedom from the chains of sin.

No person will ever to choose to give up his heart of stone the heart of stone likes stoniness it is only when God by his grace changes us that we are then able as Hopefully all of us here have to embrace Jesus Christ and to confess him as our Lord and Savior.

Thank you very much.

Wesleyan Arminianism, Compatibilism, and the Mystery Behind the Veil

I'm sure that Many of you in the audience take great pleasure in the fact that a Wesleyan is utterly dependent upon the Calvinist. I Hope that the slideshow will work that I put together. I too am very pleased to be here and I want to say that as I stand here before you tonight representing a perspective out of the broad spectrum of Christian orthodoxy, I feel a little bit at a loss because of some of the caricatures that are often placed on us and all and quite honestly Some of those characters caricatures are well-deserved.

I His salvation. In which he has said the way that I've come to understand this Steve is Like this when it comes to my salvation God has a vote and the devil has a vote and I get to cast the deciding vote well, I Want to assure you I'm not a representative of that school of thought Tonight if my salvation hangs upon anything so slender as me in any way shape or form Then indeed, I am a wretched man.

No one salvation hangs upon them in any ultimate sense whatsoever in any way shape or form. But what I want to do tonight is to suggest that we look behind the veil because ultimately whether you're talking Calvinism or Wesleyan Arminianism when we speak about the nature of humanity in our fallenness and yet our Responsibility for that fallenness in our bondage to sin and yet our responsibility to Live in such a way that we could be pleasing to God because both of those Emphasis Are found in the scripture.

We are talking about a mystery when we consider as dr White has suggested that we really need to be thinking about God Ultimately about the will of God in the ways of God and how God foreknows and how God Predestined and how God works salvation in the life of anyone at all ultimately what we have to do is say there is a Veil behind which we cannot peer.

Thank God that we have the revelation of Scripture that God in his utter goodness Sent into the world his only begotten son Jesus Christ so that through Jesus Christ the father could be made known and That we could begin to understand who God is and what God is like in his very essence.

Even if we cannot understand how that essence is what it is. God has in spite of the mystery of his Transcendent glory made himself known and so I want to suggest that we have to look behind the veil and in looking behind the veil The first thing that we have to acknowledge is that when you think about this question, and by the way I will get to the Bible Assuming I don't run out run out of time.

Not because the Bible is something I want to add on but I just want to draw the lines of Distinction very clear when we think about the source of our bondage there are two and only two possibilities in Christian theology either the source of our bondage is a supralapsarian thing.

That somehow by God's eternal decree Adam and Eve fell from grace By the choice they made but the choice they made was a part of God's eternal decree. The choice they made was God's providential sovereign will.

Hence the bondage of the human will is by God's eternal decree. There is instead of that. There's also an infralapsarian view infra meaning something has been Visited upon us imposed upon us. We become bound in sin as a result of the choice that humanity made in Adam and Eve.

Because of Adam and Eve sin, the human condition is now marred and broken and has a bondage to sin. But this is a contingent fact. Not an eternal decree by God. Somewhere along in here. There should be Another Slide which is not coming.

It's it's happening slowly, but surely. This the slot title this slide is wherein we agree. We agree in this debate that human beings are fallen and stricken by a spiritual malady that has been called termed original sin.

Not a term that's in the Bible. But a good shorthand reference to the way that human beings are in bondage. We also agree that God is good and just in the fact that some are saved and Others are judged in their sinfulness.

We agree with that. We also agree that. Well, there we go all three of them now. We also agree that Jesus Christ is the only Savior and the only atoning sacrifice and the only mediator between God and humanity.

There is no salvation possible apart from the gift of God in Jesus Christ. Wherein we disagree as I see it we disagree in the role of God about the role of God in and or the response of God to The fact of human sinfulness alienation and bondage to sin.

We also disagree. I Think about what the character of God really is or at least we define the character of God very differently. It's what as to what it means to say that God is good and God is just in matters of salvation and judgment.

With regard to this question about the freedom of the will which is my side of the equation. There are two ways to think about the freedom of the will. One is tech typically Referred to as the Arminian or the libertarian view in which it's believed philosophically that an act is not free if it is causally determined in the Sense that it has a sufficient cause or condition by that.

I mean a cause that accounts for the choice completely prior to the choice being made in the act being done. That an act cannot be truly free if that is the case on the libertarian view. Now a free act of any agent is of course explained by the reasons for which the agent acts.

But reasons for actions are not determining choice determinations of choice. Fully on the other hand. There is the typically referred to Calvinist view as I understand it of compatibilism that freedom and determinism are perfectly compatible an Act can be perfectly free Even though it is fully determined by prior causes or conditions.

A Free act therefore is one that is done willingly in accordance with the actors should be possessive there. I'm sorry. I do know how to punctuate. I just made a typo the actors character beliefs and desires.

Therefore by this view even though God would have eternally decreed that some in this congregation tonight Might think themselves saved. But not be or some in this congregation tonight might not be saved, but just be here out of curiosity.

That's an unsaved person who is eternally decreed to be unsaved Will willingly be unsaved because God has determined that they will willingly and freely be Reprobate. Well, those are the two views of freedom.

Now. What does it mean to talk about the freedom of the will? Well, this is what the freedom of the will does not mean from the Armenian Wesleyan Libertarian point of view it does not mean that we have some non God dependent capacity for free choice and for choosing God for ourselves out of ourselves.

Even as dr. White talks about some halfway condition in which we are somehow placed in a morally neutral stance. No, that's not what libertarian freedom in the Wesleyan Armenian tradition has to mean.

Secondly it does not mean that we initiate the saving relationship with God in any way shape or form. It is God's grace and God's grace alone that initiates Salvation. The third thing it does not mean is that there are no restrictions upon our Capacity.

Oh, I Will now do it for you.

Something happened to my network. It was decreed by God. I Trust that that's the case.

But I'll have to trust you that that's the case. There are no it doesn't mean that there are no restriction. Hey, I get like 30 seconds extra for this. Okay, and Ultimately that it is not God's choice that God's choice is not the ultimate issue.

But the question is what has God chosen? That's the question what has God chosen. Now just to refresh our memories the source of our bondage we reprise it there are two possibilities an eternal decree sort of bondage or a malady kind of bondage.

Something has gone wrong in the human condition. Tragically, but not by an eternal decree now to in order to make compatibilism clear as I understand it. Because I think sometimes people embrace the compatibilist view without thinking through it.

Clearly and so in order to make it clear I want to Put a thought experiment in before you tonight. First of all. Even in the Calvinist tradition as I have read it and the scholars I read there is this statement this claim that God truly loves all persons and Somehow this general call of the gospel goes out into all the world so that in some sense All persons are invited to accept the gospel the decree goes forth.

Secondly however if we say that talk about love I Submit as a premise that truly loving someone is to desire their blessedness and to promote their flourishing. I can't even begin to imagine how our moral intuitions even fallen though they be Our moral intuitions could not at least affirm that to love someone is to truly desire their blessedness and to promote their flourishing.

Third premise which will not be controversial. I think since it's a premise of Christian Orthodox Anthropology the true well-being for any human being is found only in a right relationship with God in which we accept the invitation Of God and come to love trust and obey him.

We are made for God. We're made by God. Our hearts are restless until they rest in him. St. Augustine. Fourthly by compatible ism. Since compatible ism says freedom and determinism are compatible God could Determine all persons to freely accept his invitation in the gospel and be made right with God and be saved and This would be no less glorifying to God.

Because his judgment and his mercy would be perfectly aligned with each other if this was what God willed to do now. Compatible ism being the case to set this forth. Then what are the soteriological conclusions?

Well, therefore as dr. White suggested universalism All will be saved. However, both Calvinists compatibilists and Wesleyan Arminians libertarians affirm unequivocally. Not all will be saved. So how are we going to become consistent in this?

Well for the Wesleyan Arminians We can reject premise for God does not determine all persons freely to accept the invitation of the gospel. But for the Calvinist I'm not sure exactly what the Premise would be premise for is a straightforward is as straightforward a possible implication of a Compatibilist view of freedom as the limited atonement would be.

Premise three is a classical view of Christian anthropology. So that leaves premise to God does not love all persons or if we talk about God loving all persons. It's a very idiosyncratic view of what love is.

Now what are the issues at stake in our debate tonight? Well, I contend that first of all if the issue is not the sovereignty of God. But the question of how has God chosen to be sovereign? God's sovereign decision about how to be sovereign.

Not the transcendent glory of God, but what actually brings the most glory to God. Thirdly not the bondage of the will but by what influence has the will been enslaved by eternal decree of God or by an infralapsarian Catastrophe that has befallen humanity not the atoning grace of Christ is the issue.

But for whom does Christ's life death and resurrection atone? And three not the authority of Scripture. But how we are to interpret Scripture as we let Scripture interpret itself. Wesleyan Arminian view of freedom of the will therefore Moves along these Premises.

Our bondage is not Adam's fault alone, but our willing and participation our bondage. However is not the last word. For God does not abandon the world. Or his human creation all of which bear his image.

God's grace is offered to humanity as a universally active enabling gift that precedes saving faith and Makes possible in each person response to God. This grace that goes out to all of humanity is irresistible.

No one can Resist the grace of God which comes to make it possible for them to begin to feel their need of God and say yes to God and it Initiates our longing for God and this same grace enables both the free acceptance or the free resistance of God's saving invitation.

So all salvation is of God and God is therefore content continues to be righteous. Because those who resist this universal pre Salvation grace can be judged by not only Adam's fall but their active participation in their own sinfulness because of Adam's fall and therefore God is also incredibly gloriously love.

Now we're going to have to talk some more throughout the night but some biblical passages that come to my mind. Are these passages that seem to make the Sacrifice of Jesus for the world and not just for the elect John 3 16 1st John 2 1 and 2 we can go on there with the biblical witness and I'm running out of time.

So I got to stop there. I did at least get to reference the Bible though.

The First Rebuttal: Grace, Love, and the Meaning of Propitiation

Now we come to the point where there are two rebuttals each and we'll go back and forth. Dr. White. Dr. Blakemore. Dr. Dr. Blakemore each rebuttal taking 10 minutes. Well, I don't know if I can run the presentations and won't we all right, I apologize for the mess up my my Phone just simply reset in the middle of all that and it was running the network that was controlling the all the gadgetry.

So that's what happens. He lives by technology dies by technology. I Hope in the second section we can hear some response to the biblical testimony that I have provided in regards to the biblical teaching That man is dead in sin.

He is enslaved to sin. I think it's important to hear what was just said and I want to respond to some of those things especially the definition of grace that was just given as an enabling gift. That makes it possible for us to begin to feel our need.

I Do not believe that is how grace is defined in Scripture when it says by grace you have been saved. It does not say by grace. You were brought the point to begin to feel the need to be saved now grace does that?

But you see that's not all grace does. I believe that grace is powerful. I believe that grace accomplishes the intention for which God sends it and if the Intention for God's sending of his saving grace is the salvation of a particular people.

They will be saved if it is God's intention to try to save that's a very different thing than what I'm talking about when I talk about God's saving grace a very different thing indeed now the argument that has been made is basically well We had an argument based on the nature of God's love and if you love someone then you're gonna do the best for them and The best for them would be for them to be saved and therefore the Calvinist has a problem.

That assumes that God's love is identical to man's love and even at that case at that level I would dispute the use of one of the premises in regards to the nature of love that is the Bible affirms that God's love and kindness is upon the entirety of his creation and Yet there is a special kind of love for example seen all through the Old Testament that God has for his specific people.