August 10, 2018 Show with Ryan Davidson on “A Covenant Feast: Reflections on the Lord’s Table”

The Church, the Host, and Today’s Guest

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Chris Arnz. Good afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest.

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I'm so delighted to have someone on the program for the very first time. His name is J. Ryan Davidson and Pastor Davidson received his BA from Samford University. He received his M .Ed from the College of William and Mary.

He received his THM from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and he is a PhD candidate in the patristic pastoral theology at the Free University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands. He is an author of a number of books including Thinking Through Anxiety.

He's a teacher adjunctly at several institutions including being an adjunct professor in pastoral theology at the all-new IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, a new sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and he is a pastor at Grace Baptist Chapel in Hampton, Virginia.

Today we are going to be discussing one of his books, A Covenant Feast Reflections on the Lord's Table and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor J. Ryan Davidson.

Thank you Chris, it's great and it was a pleasure also meeting you face to face at the most recent Banner of Truth conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania and I hope I get a longer period of time providentially from our Lord to share fellowship with you in greater depth the next time God may cause our paths to cross.

But I am delighted that that brief meeting resulted in today's interview. Well first of all before we go into your personal testimony of salvation, which is something that we have first-time guests do on a regular basis, especially when they're a Christian of course, sometimes once in a blue moon I interview somebody who's not a Christian for some particular reason that is value for the church but when we have a Christian on the first time especially we typically have a summary given of their salvation, what kind of religious atmosphere they were raised in and what providential circumstances the Lord brought about in their lives to draw them to himself and save them.

But before we do that let us know something about Grace Baptist.

Chapel in Hampton, Virginia. Well Grace Baptist Chapel is the... Now has it always been from your knowledge a confessionally reformed church in all those 40 years? No, at various points... Well.

Praise God. And now let's hear something about your own story about what kind of religion if.

Any you were raised in and how the Lord drew you to himself and saved you. Now how did you.

Begin to realize that the Lord had placed a call upon your life to enter into pastoral ministry?

Well I don't know how I would think about... One thing I failed to do in the beginning when I had.

You describe for our listeners the church where you serve as pastor, I forgot to have you tell us a little bit about, even though we've done this on a number of times in this program, tell us a little something about the all-new IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, where you serve on the faculty.

And I know that you were also with the Institute for Reform Baptist Studies before it became a full-blown seminary. So tell us about both of those institutions.

Well, so I... Yes, well we are eagerly looking forward to beginning to air their commercials.

Because they have already agreed and paid for a full year of sponsorship for Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And we know that Matt Stahl over there is just taking his time to make sure everything is as perfect as humanly possible before submitting the commercials to us.

And we're also going to be interviewing, I'm sure eventually, all of the faculty members there. And hopefully you will be on again in the future, in fact, multiple times. And we're looking forward to that as well.

And just to let our listeners know, I'm hoping to announce this later, but with my memory, you never know, I may forget. But if you want more information about the IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, you can go to irbsseminary .org.

That's irbsseminary .org. And remember, there's two S's back to back. Sometimes when there's two letters back to back, people skip one of them accidentally when they're running out of URL. But this is irbsseminary .org.

The Lord’s Table as a Covenant Sign

And so now we are coming to our main theme today, the book that you have written, A Covenant Feast, Reflections on the Lord's Table. And as you know, there are many books that are dedicated to this ordinance of the church, the Lord's Supper, also known as communion, also known as the Lord's Table, as you have titled it in your subtitle here, the Eucharist, and there are other names for what is known as the Lord's Table.

There are books that are dedicated solely to this topic. There are books that include this as a major theme in a larger volume. Why did you find the need to add a new.

Volume to this subject, which indeed is a very important subject? Sure. Well, yes, the memorialist.

View is also commonly known as the Zwinglian view, named after Ulrich Zwingli. But I know that there are historians who actually disagree whether Zwingli actually held to a strictly memorialist view of the Lord's Table.

In fact, I've had people on this program who disagreed on what Zwingli believed in this area. But was this the position that you had at some point in your life before coming to the conclusion that there was more than a memorial going on?

Yes. And I don't.

Think I knew. And well, if you could, if you could hammer out for us the major different views.

On the Lord's Table. Obviously, there is one view in particular that the reformers and their heirs, meaning you and I, and those in the historically and biblically faithful Protestant Church have believed for centuries that this particular view is not only heretical, but it is idolatrous as well.

We're speaking about the mass of the Roman Catholic Church that they believe it's a transforming, a transubstantiation is taking place where the elements are said to actually become the body and blood of Christ.

And it is considered a propitiatory sacrifice, an unbloody sacrifice, but a propitiatory one nonetheless. And the faithful Catholic actually worships the elements of the bread and wine. But if you could go from there, and then we'll start going to other views, such as whatever you know about the Lutheran view, and then some other views that are held differently within the evangelical church at large.

Right, right. Well, just in short, and I also understand having spoken with and interviewing.

Lutherans, that many Lutherans in the Missouri Synod and other conservative branches of Lutheranism, they do not like to be tied down to the title consubstantiation. They think that there is more mystery involved than can be spelled out in a description like that.

Have you found that to be true as well?

You're absolutely right. And that's sort of...

Well, now we have, within evangelicalism, we have those that view the celebration of the memorial. I mean, after all, Jesus did say, do this in memory of me. So we cannot rule out that it is in part a memorial.

But then you also have John Calvin's view that involves a spiritual presence. I could never really 100 fully wrap my head around that particular view, which is possibly the view that you're advocating today.

What exactly is meant by a spiritual understanding of the presence of Christ in the Eucharist that is not specifically talking about a spiritual presence limited to the elements, the actual elements of bread and wine?

Yes, and whatever view that one comes to being a Berean and seeking to be obedient and seeking to do all things according to what the God-breathed words of the scriptures teach us to do, we can never be, and we must never be, guilty of idolatry when it comes to the actual elements of this feast, this supper, as the Roman Catholics are clearly guilty of.

Well, I know that you have broken down this book into three major sections. It starts with a covenant sign, and then leads to fellowship with Jesus, and then finally, how to take the Lord's Supper. I'll have you, when we come back from our first station break, begin with how you begin in the book as far as the Lord's Supper being a covenant sign.

Then we'll move on to the other major elements that you have there in the book. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

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And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private matter. Well, let's start where you start in the book, a covenant sign, the covenant feast, the Lord's Table, the Lord's Supper, Holy Communion, Holy Eucharist, however you want to phrase it, is a covenant sign, if you could tell us about that.

Yes, the first chapter... Now, if you could, please spell out in detail, as clearly as you can, what exactly do you mean and what do other confessionally reformed people mean when they say that the ordinance, and sometimes called a sacrament, but there is disagreement amongst even reformed people on whether to call it a sacrament or not, but that it's a means of grace.

What does exactly that mean, that it's a means of grace?

Excellent, excellent.

It also contrasts historically confessionally reformed Christians from our hyper-Calvinist friends who think that any use of means in our understanding is a violation of God's sovereignty and is actually, in their minds, Arminian and heretical.

I know that the primitive Baptists are, find a, and I don't want to broad brush, but many of them find it troubling, extremely troubling, even to view the preaching of the gospel as a means of grace, because they being, many of them being hyper-Calvinists will remove what historically and biblically faithful reformed people have always viewed as that human beings may not have a role in our election.

They, we don't have a role in our regeneration, but we do have a role as far as what God has commanded us to do. He's commanded us to preach the gospel and he's also commanded us to believe it. So there are means that God uses to bring about his ends.

Am I right? All right. Well, we have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, Gordy, who says, and he's, you'll probably be repeating yourself a little bit, but Gordy says, how can I best communicate that the Lord's Supper is a means of grace to my brothers and sisters in Christ who have a strictly memorial idea so firmly embedded in their minds?

And what I might add to that, since you've really covered that, when we're communicating it to our brothers and sisters who disagree with that, I can understand how many people are frightened of attaching to themselves some kind of a superstitious notion that is too close to what Rome believes about this.

Ceremony, that they, especially a former Roman Catholic, like myself, we want to be clear that we are not buying into something that some of our Reformed brethren have maintained. As you know, Reformed Baptists, we believe that we have brought the Reformation further than our Pato Baptist brethren, no insult intended to our Pato Baptist brethren, but we do believe that many of our other brethren in the Reformed camp or in the Reformation camp, such as our Lutheran friends and brethren, they have retained too much of what Rome taught that is unbiblical.

So I can understand how some Christians, especially if they were formerly enslaved to the idolatry of Rome, how they might be very leery of, and they may have a knee-jerk reaction to this kind of conversation.

So if you could help Gordy be further equipped to communicate this to brothers and sisters in Christ, to have the strictly memorial concept.

Sure, not saying they're...

Right, because it is a memorial, that is a part of what it is.

Right, right, and so almost encouraging gently the person, and that's a cursory look at...

Yeah, I've got to get Richard to discuss that on the show at some point, we've discussed other books of his, but so far we haven't touched that one, and I would love to. But yeah, so in other words, the contrast might be between your book and his, that his book might be more intended to include an academic audience, where yours is more to not only include academics, but perhaps more concerned with lay people.

And I hate that term, but for lack of a better term to distinguish between ordained ministers and scholars who have been trained in seminary, opened up to the average Christian.

Right, absolutely.

And if you want to get that book, More Than a Memory by Richard Barcillos, you could go to cvbbs .com, that's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, who sponsor this program. If they don't have it already in stock, they can order it very quickly for you.

Let's go to another, oh, by the way, Gordy, you have won a free copy of A Covenant Feast by our guest today, Pastor J. Ryan Davidson. And since you live in Mechanicsburg, and you are so close to the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service store on North Hanover Street in Carlisle, why don't you just swing by there Monday, and it will be waiting there for you, it's already there.

And if you can make it there before they close today, which I doubt, but they do have it waiting there for you. So your best bet is to stop by Monday to pick that up. Thank you very much for joining us on the air with a question for our program.

We have a listener, Brandon, in Franklinton, North Carolina. He says, almost every church at which I've been a member has only taken the Lord's Supper once a quarter. When I've questioned leaders about this, I have been told more than once that if we do it too often, it will lose its meaning and become an empty ritual.

Have you heard this objection? If so, what is the most gracious way to respond to this lack of appreciation for the Lord's table? And perhaps, Brandon, you've assumed too much in that last sentence. It may not be a lack of appreciation, but they may truly believe what they said as far as it becoming an empty ritual.

But I agree with Brandon that I don't accept that answer, because if you are going to use that as a rule of thumb, if you do something too often, it will become an empty ritual, then why don't we go to church once a month?

In fact, some of the primitive Baptists do that as well. They only have worship services once a month. But do you.

Have an answer for Brandon in Franklinton, North Carolina? Sure, that's a good question. I think firstly, you know, the issue of the... Would you say that by regular weekly, every Sunday? I would, I think, appreciate it most weekly.

There is indication...

Yeah, I think that if you think it is any less than that, then you shouldn't be using it as your proof that we worship on Sunday rather than Saturday. To me, they go hand in hand. If you're going to use it as a proof text, or as a biblical example that the Lord's people gathered as a corporate body for worship on Sunday rather than their Jewish forefathers who worshipped on Saturday, I think it goes hand in hand that you have to then say, well, I guess then the Lord's.

Supper must be a weekly ordinance. And I think... Well, yeah, it seems to me that if you do it.

Anything less than weekly, you are creating a man-made tradition in the church connected to a biblical ordinance. I mean, we all have man-made traditions when we gather for worship in some level. I mean, you know, like our order of worship, for instance.

The specific liturgy we might have doesn't... You know, there's no blueprint for an exact, detailed, minute-by-minute liturgy that you have in the Bible. So we do bring our traditions into the church.

But at the same time, when it's something as important as the Lord's Supper, it seems to me that when you do it less than every week, you are doing it according to a man-made tradition. Am I going too.

Far there? Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. It is a longer than normal break.

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It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.

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Chris Ironson on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family-owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.