April 20, 2021 Show with Dr. William Webster & Rev. David T. King on “No Infallible Interpreter for Rome’s Infallible Interpreter”

Opening Theme and the Iron Sharpens Iron Mission

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

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Introducing Dr. William Webster and Rev. David T. King

And I am so thrilled to have two of my dearest friends on the program today, yet today, so excited that I can't even speak. And I'm not using hyperbole or exaggeration. These two dear men and dear friends and dear brothers are those kinds of friends who would be among the very first you call when something tragic happens in your life or when something incredibly joyful happens.

And I'm speaking of my dear friends, Dr. William Webster and Reverend David T. King. Dr. William Webster is pastor of Grace Bible Church in Battleground, Washington. He's an author with Banner of Truth and other publishers.

He is a conference speaker and founder of Christian Resources. It's my honor and privilege, first of all, to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Bill Webster.

Thank you.

And also joining us, our mutually very dear longtime friend, Reverend David T. King, who is an ordained minister, having served in the Presbyterian Church in America and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

He's a co-author with Dr. William Webster of the three-volume work, Holy Scripture, the Ground and Pillar of Our Faith. And he currently is the assistant to the pastor at Christ Church of Katie, Texas, which is a congregation in the Presbyterian Church in America.

Today, both Bill and David will be addressing Rome's dilemma. No infallible interpreter for their own alleged infallible interpreter. Why. Rome's claims to being impervious to the dangers of private interpretation are false, hypocritical, and unattainable.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to the program as well, David T. King.

Thanks, Chris.

Grace Bible Church, Christian Resources, and Christ Church of Katy

And Bill, why don't you start with a little brief description of Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington.

Well, we are an evangelical congregation, 89 London Baptist. We're committed to the authority of Scripture, the affirmation of the God, and that they understand how to walk the central way with the lives of our commitment.

And if anybody either lives near Battleground, Washington, plans to visit there,.

Or has family, friends, and loved ones near or in Battleground, Washington, and you'd like to find out more about Grace Bible Church, go to gracebiblebattleground .org. Gracebiblebattleground .org. And now, tell us something about Christian Resources.

Christian Resources comes out of my understanding of biblical truth, to understand the authority. It's a great deal coming out of my own experience. Now a committed evangelical, teaching the Scripture that is devoted with that ultimate end in the evangelical church, are related to the affirmation of the Scripture.

Wow, that surprises me, that last statement. I thought that the evangelical church at large was just fine and dandy, exactly the way it is.

Not hardly.

Obviously, you know me long enough to know that I was just being sarcastic. And David, please tell us something about Christ Church of Katy, Texas.

Yes, we're a PCA congregation. It's a passion for the gospel. Both Bill and myself, to come together and for the...

And if anybody wants to find out more about Christ Church of Katy, Texas, go to cckpca .org, cckpca .org. And I believe I forgot to announce the website for Christian Resources, the ministry of our other guest, Bill Webster, christiantruth .com, christiantruth .com.

And there's a phenomenal bookstore available to you on that website as well. Let me return to you for a moment, David. What is it about Roman Catholicism that drew you to really do very deep research into Rome's claims, into Rome's actual history, their actual belief system and dogma as set forth in the Council of Trent and other councils?

What is it that compelled you to really do more in-depth investigation and research into this one area? And of course, when I say one area, I mean one church. There's many, many facets of Roman Catholicism.

But what drove you to study this so deeply and become basically an apologist defending Reformation principles, teachings, and doctrines?

Also, it's amazing. You find that after having listened to so many Roman apologists that you will really...

Yes, it is quite amazing, the claims that they make. And as you know, having been someone myself raised in the Roman Catholic Church and having been an altar boy and educated in a Roman Catholic parochial grammar school for eight years and having come to salvation in Christ and the true gospel in the 1980s when I was in my mid -20s, it was surely an eye-opener.

I believe I learned more about Roman Catholicism after becoming a Reformed Baptist than I knew as a Roman Catholic. But having been a part of live public moderated debates that I have arranged and orchestrated for the last nearly 30 years, I have seen quite and heard quite a number of outlandish claims by Roman Catholic apologists, some of which are mind-boggling.

Today we are going to be addressing, let me repeat our theme, Rome's Dilemma, No Infallible Interpreter for Their Own Alleged Infallible Interpreter. Why Rome's Claims to Being Impervious to the Dangers of Private Interpretation are False, Hypocritical, and Unattainable.

Rome's Infallible Magisterium and the Charge of Private Interpretation

And Bill Webster, this seems to be the key reason that I hear that Roman Catholics claim to have a far superior religion than that of anyone else who claims to be a Christian. That is that they have an infallible interpreter.

They have an infallible magisterium. And when you do not have that, you are basically left to your own devices and Roman Catholics will very frequently, routinely make a caricature of the Reformation principle of sola scriptura.

And they will make a caricature of we who are heirs of the Reformation, those of us who are evangelicals, Protestants, Calvinists, etc. They will make a caricature of us as basically being our own popes, each person being their own pope, where we are sitting alone with our Bibles and privately interpreting the scriptures.

And that is what leads to the many divisions in Protestantism, the many denominations, and as one Roman Catholic apologist put it, or more than one, but one who coined the phrase, that sola scriptura is a blueprint to anarchy.

Now, as the theme of our show suggests, Bill, they really, it's really, to a degree, it's laughable that they would be pointing the fingers at Protestants, saying that we are perpetuating a blueprint for anarchy.

And they claim that this infallible magisterium that they possess, so-called, is keeping them free from the multitudes of divisions and splits and sects and so on because of private interpretation. And yet, all my life, being a Catholic and a Protestant, I have seen the Roman Catholic Church being represented by a very wide spectrum of theological, philosophical, doctrinal, practical, and worldview issues that even far outrange, far surpass in the breadth and width of difference than you would find in conservative evangelical churches.

If you could pick up where I left off there.

Oh, you're doing great. And in particular, Pachycex Cathedra, back in the 16th century, which is the official Roman Catholic answer to the Reformation, one of the basic principles that is enunciated by Trent, they believe, has been given by the Roman Church.

It's because you have a claim in 1571 to be the ultimate authority. Between Rome and you involved in this process, and you're taught, it's not enough simply as part of the authority structure. Scripture is not the ultimate authority, and scripture is not slot materially.

Handed down from the alterative, which they still amnation, and Vatican I, the Roman Catholic Church, unanimous, unlawful, unanimous consent. That is a test. If that authority has embraced all, you can go back and following to the, have you not read when he was constantly dealing with false to make sure it was compelling.

Written word of God is the ultimate authority over the church. Everything to them and give them the ability to understand the necessary truths of salvation. To be an infallible interpreter. This claim by scripture, it cannot be supported by the written.

Now you just mentioned the patristic era. That is the very reason that the support of the patristic era for sola scriptura before the Reformation, centuries before the Reformation even occurred. That it was the catalyst behind the three volume, 900 page monumental work that you coauthored with our guest today, David King.

Holy scripture, the ground and pillar of our faith, is it not?

It is. In fact, it's hard time by the will of God. They handed down their apostolic teaching in the ground and pillar unanimous concern about the firm by Roman Catholic word of God. Reformation is in that print.

And we have to go to our first break when we return, David, I'd like you to define what Rome says it means by papal infallibility. Obviously, there are many errors made both among Roman Catholics themselves, especially those who are your average layman.

I did not understand what that meant until I became a Protestant. And of course, you may have many Protestants who misunderstand. We don't want to be guilty of the same slander and caricaturing that is frequent amongst Roman Catholic apologists.

So we'll have you actually clear up what Rome is actually saying when they claim to believe in papal infallibility. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Bill Webster and David King with more of Rome's Dilemma. No infallible interpreter for their own alleged infallible interpreter after these messages from our sponsors.

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission? To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture.

To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible. This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

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Papal Infallibility Defined and the Limits of Rome's Claims

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guests today are authors William Webster and David T. King, and we are discussing Rome's Dilemma, No Infallible Interpreter for Their Own Alleged Infallible Interpreter, Why Rome's Claims to Being Impervious to the Dangers of Private Interpretation are False, Hypocritical, and Unattainable.

And before the break, David, you may recall that I asked you to give Rome's definition of papal infallibility because there are lots of misunderstandings about what that means. I'm sure there are many Catholics and Protestants who both think that means the Pope can never sin, that the Pope never speaks falsely, never makes errors when he speaks, but the more learned Catholic, the more trained apologist will be quick to point out that is not what Rome believes.

In fact, I think it's been comically ironic that many Catholic apologists have said, oh, part of the beauty of the Roman Catholic Church is that in spite of the many wicked and evil and horrible popes that have existed throughout history, God has still preserved his one true church, and that the magisterium and the popes have never infallibly and dogmatically declared something that was false.

So that seems to be how they get around that reality that their history is littered with popes that were false teachers and horrible, grotesque human beings. But anyway, if you could, give us Rome's definition of papal infallibility.

Sure, and it's of the Roman community. Papal infallibility is only the defined doctrine to be embraced. You know, when the Pope does define the dogma, it's only the dogma that he defines, and not necessarily the dogma itself.

Support the defining of a particular dogma, or not them. You know, some have even said that the support of a particular dogma could later, but not the dogma itself. Matters are used to define the dogma.

Only the dogma.

The Self-Defeating Nature of Rome's Infallible Interpreter

Now, Bill, one of the reasons I'm sure you would agree why it is nonsensical and hypocritical for Catholics to accuse Protestants of basically perpetuating anarchy in the church because of our refusal to bow the knee to the papacy and our refusal to believe in papal infallibility and to strictly be guided by the Reformation principle of sola scriptura, that the scripture alone is our infallible authority over the church.

It is ridiculous that they make this claim that we are the architects of chaos when it is palpably provable that even if you want to grant them the papal infallibility dogma, if you want to grant them, which we are not going to do, but even if you did grant them that this is a genuine gift to the Roman Catholic church by God, they hardly ever use it.

Am I right? I mean, how has this prevented all kinds, myriads of insane and heretical things that even conservative Catholics are abhorred by? I mean, it's interesting how you hardly ever hear most of the conservative Catholic apologists that you and I know, that all three of us know very well, you hardly ever hear them bringing up Pope Francis these days.

They probably feel like they want to crawl under a rock every time his name is mentioned because he is so far to the left of mainstream conservative Catholic apologetics. But isn't this bill nonsensical that they would dare say that we are the architects of chaos just because we don't adhere to papal infallibility?

If you think about it, not by scripture alone, this claim is made all throughout the book, that look at all the dishonesty and greatest poverty, and yet the greater, if you will, utterment, if you read the words of the council, it's Satan to disseminate for the entire church.

Time, Leo, but the church has never believed until, and I mean, the Eastern church today, along with the Protestant church, to be a revelation of God. It is not a revelation of God. It is contrary to the word of God.

It is a dogma to be necessary for salvation. This was never a teaching question of unanimous consent. Some declarations have always been the very beginning. The interpretation given to Matthew 16 is no infallible interpretation of scripture.

You have a handful of verses. Matthew 16, 18, surely is one of them. Luke 22, 30, even Roman Catholic history, very few claims that it's made. And anytime a Roman Catholic scripture, they're using private interpretation because they do not know, they do not know that that's true.

Have you ever heard a Roman Catholic apologist attempt to explain why that is, that there have not been officially declared ex cathedra interpretations of verses of the scripture when they have this great benefit that they think only they solely possess of having this infallible interpreter, and yet he never uses this gift.

So what is their explanation behind that?

Well, hardly ever. If you can look at certain papal declarations, it is absolutely necessary. 1302, it is necessary because that is an ex cathedra statement. If you look at the teaching on the assumption, papal declaration, declaration of the dogma, all they're doing is giving you a dogma finding.

You could eliminate all that ever existed in the history of the church by the fishermen.

And we're going to go to our midway break right now. Please be patient with us, folks. It's the longer than normal break in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the SEC requires of them to localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their other programming geographically to Lake City, Florida.

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Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages.

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I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the G3 Conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme, Christ is Supreme Over All.

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers. One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission? To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture.

To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible. This 17th century hand-engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full-size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before. You can have your own copy of this 44-page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org. Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

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And please, folks, never forget how important solid-ground-books .com is to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. They are a primary, a premier, a vital sponsor of this program. If they were to cease advertising with us, we likely would not be able to remain on the air due to lack of funding, barring a financial miracle of God, of course.

But I am urging you, therefore, to please visit solid-ground-books .com frequently and purchase from them generously. And every time you purchase from them, mention that you heard about them from chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And remember, folks, you're not only going to be doing solid-ground-books .com a favor by purchasing books from them, and you're not only going to be doing us here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a favor by making one of our advertisers very happy, you're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing a gift from solid-ground-books .com an enormous favor, an incalculable favor, because they publish and bring back into print nothing but the finest in Christian literature from the past and from the present.