Have You Not Read S2E20 - Prophetesses & Pastoresses

Sunnyside Baptist Church

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Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the

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Saints before we dig into our topic we humbly ask you to rate review and share the podcast thank you

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I'm Andrew Hudson joining me today is Michael Dearum Michael we have a few questions let me go ahead and read them for you there are a few mentions in scripture of prophetesses the idea of women having any spiritual authority over men is clearly not a biblically solid viewpoint so these women being mentioned can be confusing they seem to appear at times when

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Israel was not following God is a female judge or prophet mentioned in scripture only there to show how far

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Israel had fallen or is there another explanation there are a few examples but I had recently read about Judah's King Josiah who sought godly counsel from Huldah in 2nd

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Kings 22 verses 14 through 20 we do have a follow -up question but let's start there the person asking the question is obviously aware of he's obviously aware of some of the context in which we find these stories we could think about Deborah as a judge in in Israel and the leaders of the tribes in Israel who were under assault coming to talk with her about what they ought to do about this that and the other obviously at this time in the book of Judges there was a very severe lack of fidelity to the

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Lord and leadership God had given the marching orders early in the book of Judges about what they were supposed to be doing and even though the enemies were strong they were to work together and still depend upon the

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Lord for the victory but as you progress through the book of Judges we see more and more faithlessness laziness they don't they don't finish the job and in fact in the story of Deborah and Barak who actually led the army there is a constant mockery of the men in the text who end up doing all the wrong things and there is a moment where the great enemy of the people of God is has his head smashed in by a woman and then you get echoes of Genesis 3 15 yeah coming through and that's not the only place in the book of Judges where that happens and as we look at second

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Kings 22 we have the story about Huldah and we read in verse 14 of second

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Kings 22 so Hilkiah the priest Haikim, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah the prophetess the wife of Shalem the son of Tikvah the son of Horchas keeper of the wardrobe she dwelt in Jerusalem in the second quarter and they spoke with her then she said to them thus says the

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Lord God of Israel tell the man who sent you to me thus says the

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Lord behold I will bring calamity on this place and on its inhabitants all the words of the book which the king of Judah has read because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands therefore my wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched but as for the king of Judah who sent you to inquire of the

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Lord in this manner you shall speak to him thus says the Lord God of Israel concerning the words which you have heard because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before the

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Lord when you heard where I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants that they would become a desolation and a curse and you tore your clothes and wept before me

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I also have heard you says the Lord surely therefore I will gather you to your fathers and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace and your eyes shall not see all the calamity which

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I will bring on this place so they brought back word to the king so in this story we are hearing how much judgment is pending upon Judah upon Jerusalem upon the people of Judah and the reason why is because although Josiah was a good king and indeed his heart was tender lying in the backdrop of Josiah is this evil 52 year reign of Manasseh yeah and Manasseh was one of the most evil kings to have ever lived in the history of God's people in the

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Old Testament it was said that he filled Jerusalem with the blood of the innocent from one gate to the other and even though Josiah was a good king

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God said I will not bring the judgment that is due to Manasseh's evil upon Josiah's time

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I will bring it on those who come after him because in the Old Covenant as we read in the

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Ten Commandments God will bring judgment to the fourth generation for the sins of their ancestors so the question brings up the context of when we see prophetesses often when there is no prophet why was

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Deborah the judge because no man was willing to do what God said to do so God raises up the female judge also here we have a prophetess well we're all the prophets well they the things have gotten so bad under Manasseh they didn't even know where the book of the law was they found it by air quotes accident as they were trying to repair the temple because the temple was in such bad shape that's how bad things were in Israel at this time

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I think it's a fair assessment that the norm the way it's supposed to work in the

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Word of God in in the life of Israel the way that was supposed to work was that they would have prophets who would speak

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God's Word and say what was true but in the absence of that God will raise up a prophetess to do what others were unwilling to do the questioner is obviously drawing from the idea that things had gotten this bad in Israel correct and you see something similar when you when you read in the in the days of the judges when everybody every man was doing what was right in his own eyes things get so dark so twisted so strange in in the disaster of the people of God you see all sorts of things happening that are not to be imitated not normative but is an expression of how bad things were getting right he's asked for for example for example

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Samson is an example for no one right oh yeah you know the same question that we would have about finding a female prophetess we should have about Samson like that was you know there's a pretty bad

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Nazareth yeah exactly so in that sense we also find a prophetess in Luke chapter 2 when we conclude in our

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Old Testaments we read in Malachi the last word is curse and it's a good reminder that there were hundreds of years in which

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God sent no word and this was actually a promise of his concerning judgment that there would be a famine in the land but not of bread a famine of God's Word and the famine things were really really bad we call the intertestamental period but it was it was centuries of no new word from God the weak limp -wristed worship of the people of Israel that we read about in Malachi continued on until the time of Jesus when we see a lot of fakery a lot of and we call it

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Pharisee ism now but in Luke we begin to read that for the first time

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God begins to speak to his people and he does it the beginning through a a sterile old man a priest and he speaks through him by making him mute what

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I get I got everybody's attention and he had to write on a clay tablet simply to say the name of his son

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John you know and then we see when Jesus was born he is brought to the temple and there is a man who has been waiting for the constellation of Israel Simeon and here is

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Anna a prophetess right a widow for a long time a widow for a very long time and we think about the old man's prayers being answered and we think about the widow finding great joy in the arrival of the

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Messiah and we rejoice in the grace of God on display here but we also recognize that in once again we have we're in a situation in the

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Old Covenant because the New Covenant has not yet come in Christ is not he is not brought about the New Covenant in his blood so we're still looking at Old Covenant situation here and things are not good and when

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Jesus grows up and he inspects that temple where Anna was at when he inspects that temple where Simeon was at he doesn't find a whole lot of worthwhile things going on in there no so we see that that these prophetesses tend to show up during times that are not optimal the tenders of the vineyard were not giving the fruits yes now in that there is nothing in the

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Bible that would indicate that a woman should should not tell the truth or say what

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God says or agree with him about what he says in his word and to be clear about that when communicating with others there's nothing in the

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Bible that says that ought not to happen but then observing the fact that there were prophetesses brings up another question right it sure does mom so a following question was well what about female pastors then we have clear parallels with female prophetesses what about female pastors is that a another situation where things have gotten bad or is this just a clear prohibition so that's the thing when we look in when we look in the

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Old Testament we look in the Old Covenant we see that there is an essential pattern there is there's a clear structure in the

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Old Covenant laws it's explicitly says that men are not to put on women's clothing and women ought not to wear men's equipment it was not simply a prohibition against cross -dressing it was also a prohibition against women taking on the jobs of men and men doing and pretending to be women the things that pertain to each yes exactly and it's very specific because it in the passage in Leviticus where it talks about it there is a prohibition against men wearing the simla the the robe worn or the clothes were worn by a woman but when it comes down to the woman it says she's not to bear the equipment of a man so she's not supposed to be doing the things that the man was called to there is a proper order there apparently

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God knew that people with a pagan mindset would begin to treat men and women as fungible and that they could be exchanged easily to the point where nobody would know what a man is where a woman is anymore so you have some clear prohibition some clear directions and guidances in the

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Old Covenant but as far as there being any particular mandate saying a woman shall not be called a prophetess right that's not there like you go to Deuteronomy 18 where it deals with false prophets and you don't have it

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I mean if you're gonna find it it would be there sure right but it's not there so if we're going to talk about that and then compare it with compare it with the instructions about the church in the

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New Covenant we got to understand we're moving from the Old Covenant to the new and then we have very explicit instructions concerning the church in the

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New Covenant so after clarifying that there's a difference between men and women and sick first Timothy 2 verses 8 through 15 and saying in verse 12

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I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man but to be in silence reason given is not

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Paul's preference or comfort level or that he's just a mean person he says for Adam was formed first than Eve and Adam was not deceived with a woman being to see it fell into transgression so he points back to Genesis 1 2 & 3 as the reason why so there is a very deep reason for this this goes all the way back to the beginning right and back to where God actually defines for us what is a man and what is a woman again when those definitions are tossed aside because we think we know better than God well we actually recapitulate the sin of Adam and Eve and eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil determining categories for ourselves but if we trust

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God's categories then we hear what he has to say in first Timothy 2 and first Timothy 3 when he says this is a faithful saying if a man desires the position of a bishop he desires a good work a bishop must then be blameless the husband of one wife temperance of reminded of good behavior hospitable able to teach not given to wine violent not greedy for money but gentle not quarrelsome not covetous one who rules his own house well having his his children in submission with all reverence for if a man does not know how to rule his own house how will he take up the care of the

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Church of God not a novice less being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside lest he fall into reproach in the snare of the devil now you can't read that text for what it says and then come away and say women can be overseers slash elders slash pastors as well right it is bound to the masculine gender it is bound to the definition of what who is a man's roles as a husband and as the ruler of his household and over his children right so you can't read this text and say well you have to really give a woman a chance to rule her own household before you know and yeah that's a logical leap that just doesn't stand it doesn't it doesn't stand so just from the basic qualifications there given the background of what he says in chapter 2 and we read chapter 3 you can't come away from that and say well you can have women pastors furthermore when we look in 1st

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Corinthians chapter 14 we receive instructions about proper order in church meetings okay and there are a lot of different instructions but all of them are about being orderly all of them are about reminding us that God is not a god of chaos he is a god of order just just look at how he's made his creation and for example in verse 33 1st

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Corinthians 14 it says for God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all the churches of the

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Saints and see says verse 34 let your women keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak that doesn't mean they're not allowed to conversate it doesn't mean that they're not allowed to read scripture or to speak to their children as if you know they have to wear a muzzle in the churches yeah you can't pray oh yeah exactly that's not what you know because the context says this but they are to be submissive as the the law also says as an example he's using his example there and if they want to learn something let them ask their own husbands at home for it is shameful for women to speak in church in other words to stand up and then to give the message as he's already been talking about prophecy and if they're speaking in tongues there has to be an interpreter and everything has to be orderly and so he's saying the women are not to be involved in that prophesying activity in the churches okay he says it's shameful for women to speak in church so you see how he's being very specific in that regard and then if anybody is concerned about hmm that sounds like that's being very restrictive and I don't like that idea

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Paul says in verse 36 or did the Word of God come originally from you or was it you only that it reached if anyone thinks himself to be prophet or spiritual let him acknowledge that the things which

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I write to you are the commandments of the Lord right but if anyone's ignorant let him be ignorant he says so that doesn't match my opinion about what it should should mean so therefore we're gonna overturn this yes right like so this isn't a matter of opinion it's the word right now and this is a very very specific now there there is there's language about how wives would be just submissive to their husbands and everything in regards to the order of the church

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Paul says I do not permit a woman to have authority or to preach or to have authority over a man and as he speaks in regards to the church he also says here in first Corinthians 14 let them you know they're not to be part of that prophesying ministry in the church okay so he said he said he said all of that including when he's talking about speaking in tongues and interpreters that would qualify there as well which again when you read you know

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Paul and Luke you know they're best buds when you read about what Luke says about tongues what Paul says about tongues it's clearly known languages not yet learned but the

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Spirit giving you utterance and then somebody else giving the interpretations that all are edified and when you look at all of that does this forbid a woman from proclaiming

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God's truth in a very vocal way outside the context of the church

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I didn't read anything about that I didn't find it yeah yeah I didn't find it I say this because I don't know who she is

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I don't know her heart okay but every once in a while there's a woman on a street corner not too far from where I live and as I drive past she's got her amplifier out and she's at this very busy intersection she's on the sidewalk and cars will be stopped at this traffic light for you know a good three four minutes and I rolled down my window one time and I started listening and she was preaching she was proclaiming she was quoting scripture and she was saying that that that humanity that men are wicked and evil that they are sinful in the sight of God and there isn't a single thing that you could ever do to save yourself that you need forgiveness and you need a

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Savior and that in Savior's name is Jesus Christ I need you turn to him and repent of your sins and believe in the name of Jesus Christ and you shall be saved she was saying the same thing the word says yeah and she's not in inside of a church she's just out there and when

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I'm looking at that I'm thinking to myself okay what do I think about that according to the word preach on sister right is she an authority over a man inside of a church

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I don't see that would the Bible use the language of prophetess about her possibly especially when you read in Acts that there was a man who had four daughters who were prophetesses who blessed

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Paul and spoke with him and they had a good time of fellowship how am I supposed to interpret that in light of text like this in first Corinthians 14 like text in first Timothy how am

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I supposed to reconcile the two for surely Paul didn't let them have authority over him there you go so there's that there's the fact that these daughters are not gonna be telling their dad what to do right that's gonna fit with I don't have to interpret that text in a way that contradicts other passages of Scripture is what

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I'm saying oh yeah so I think that we have to be we have to be careful that we don't take up the

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Old Covenant case laws without proper understanding or the

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Old Covenant experiences without proper understanding and then apply them over the

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New Covenant instructions to the church and then we do read the New Covenant instructions in the church that we do not misapply them in a way like a

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Pharisees do fence the law and to make things more restrictive exactly what the word actually says so along those lines you use the word the church will you please define that right so when we think about the church we first see the word used in the book of Acts in chapter 5 of the book of Acts verse 11 prior to that Jesus uses the expression the church and he says that he's the one who builds his church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it and he builds it upon the confession of who he is as the

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Christ the Son of the Living God and as we read in the book of Acts as those sometimes are called the multitude of the disciples sometimes they're called the multitude of the believers but time and again we see that they are the ones who have warmly received the gospel of Jesus Christ believing on his name having repented of their sins these are the ones who have been blessed by the

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Holy Spirit they have been born again and they are acknowledged as belonging to the

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Lord through the ordinance of baptism and so they are baptized in the name of the

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Father the Son and the Holy Spirit so they're clearly being identified as a separate group of people and they begin to be called the church so they are a set -apart group of people who belong to Christ by salvation identified by the gifts of the

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Spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit identified by baptism in a physical way being set aside and wherever we find the preaching of God's Word and the observance of baptism in the

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Lord's Supper we had the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ and baptism in the Lord's Supper being rightly observed you see this local group of believers in Christ you find the church there's the sense in which

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Christ is the head of the church as the head of the body that all who believe in him are a part of him there's the church in the grand scope in the grand sense where Christ is the shepherd and all who are with in his flock or his sheep we consider the church right we have the sense of that church being the bride of Christ and we know that not all who will belong to Christ belong to him yet in in the sense of they've not all been born yet they've not all been redeemed yet in terms of they're being born again they've been bought and paid for on the cross but they have not been born again yet they have not yet you're talking about temporal difference temporal difference is right so there's the big sense in them with the church is and then there's a local expression of that but there's the church in Smyrna there's the church in Laodicea there's the church in Philippi there's the church in Ephesus right so there's local expressions of the church so if I were to say as in all the churches of the

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Saints yes like the text or in the churches this is not restricted to buildings no you have been talking about the biblical definition being the people yes very much so and when we have some of the metaphors about the church it's called his household or his temple so there's a kind of building metaphor that is used about the church but at this time churches met in homes right they would meet in somebody's home and it wasn't till sometime around the third century archaeologists have found that some of these homes have began to be modified so that they have like baptismals in them where you know people could be immersed easily and you begin to have you know actual thought about making you know buildings into specifically good places to meet together yeah exactly yeah and so people today will point to a building and call it a church right

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I think that sometimes the old affectation the church house works better yeah so I'm trying to leverage this difference between what we see here in the text and your example that you included about this lady on the side of the street this is referring to the gathering of the believers correct you're discussing the byways and highways outside of the congregation yeah it's clear when that the church house the building there's not the church and the people who belong to that local church they intend to gather there and and indeed they would be considered the church but are you in church unless you gather exactly right when you gather together as an assembly that's the context of 1st

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Corinthians 14 what goes on when you gather and I think we've thought long and hard about this especially in the in the light of the the tyranny that we experienced in 2020 and following where the people of God were forbidden to gather and we knew even though we tried to use livestream and we tried to use you know all sorts of things that we weren't gathering and it wasn't church it's completely different and so if we are not gathering together we can't say that we are in church right you know and so there's

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I think that's going to be the distinguishing difference all right thank you for addressing that with the word

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Michael what are you thankful for I'm thankful for controversies because there always seems to be another controversy about every other week and whatever it may be you know and those are always weighing on my mind and goading me to study to get into the script amen amen yeah

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I don't want to interrupt you but I feel the same way so many times things are yeah as you described them controversies it is just another time that I I feel we talked about assurance on a different I feel this desire to see well you know what does the master really say about this is my belief about this topic incorrect

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I want to be conformed to his image I want to grow up into him let's see what he has to say it's a beautiful thing to be refreshed by that it's a kind of education that it's a burden and you want to handle it well you don't want to be resentful about it but I don't want to study this subject well maybe

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I need to maybe I need to be more informed about God's Word about this particular subject matter and so and then and thinking about the way in which people who are involved in the controversy how they are responding to one another and treating one another is always a constant reminder about how we are to in Christ respond to each other when there is a difficulty when there is a problem but it's just a constant education and I'm thankful for it amen

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I'm thankful to God for my beautiful wife I am currently doing undergraduate education at a university here in Oklahoma and her providing for my physical needs as well as caring for the children in ways that allows me to do my school studies in a manner that honors

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Christ by giving it my best I thank God for her for those things

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I don't she is truly my one flesh and I don't know where I would be without her that Christ has given her to me