November 11, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White. Well, and good evening. Welcome to the dividing line. It is a Tuesday evening Version, which is not usual for us. Normally we are on Thursday evenings, but we're well We're playing around with the schedule.

Someone was asking today if it was going to stay this way and I said we're gonna do it whenever we get around to doing in essence, it's just simply a matter of scheduling and Trying to work around various sundry schedules with only two folks who are very very busy.

And of course this time of year, especially with the debate coming up This in just a matter of a few weeks actually. The trip to Florida and then to California and one day going from Orlando to all the way to California Crossing the entire continental United States and I tell you I hope there's gonna be something left of me come the Bible Ants Man broadcast in December because it's going to come right at the end of about three weeks away from home and That always that always.

You know, it's a little bit of a challenge, but that's what's coming up. So we're gonna try To do this type of thing a Thursday Probably should be able to work out. I was going to try to get out of out of town for a few days this week, but things just simply Too challenging to do so until Probably Thursday evening just be gone a day or two.

It's the only way I can work things out. So we probably will have a Thursday morning dividing line and What it'll be on by the way, I I just sent Another email to mr. Matta ticks. Mr. Matta ticks wife is expecting.

So I'm obviously not high on the priority list. I've let him know that if he can't make it for a week from tonight We're just not going to be able to do it. We're we'll have to do it at the earliest sometime in January.

Maybe in February. That's just the first time we're gonna have any opportunity of doing anything. That's just that's just how it works. So We've you know, we've been here we've done our part so we'll see what happens that I sort of need to know before the next program so I can make some sort of relevant announcement so that we can have people listening and Maybe even have phone calls.

I'm not really sure how phone calls would work in a situation like that. It's probably just going to be Myself and and Eric doing the discussion anyway, so we will see what happens with that. 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number.

7 5 3 3 3 4 1 Is the phone number for your participation was in Springfield, Illinois over the weekend? And had a great time there with the with the folks number folks came from st. Louis and We were at Southern View Chapel in Springfield, Illinois.

It was wonderfully cold and I really enjoyed that after the longest summer I can ever recall in Phoenix the hottest summer in summer in Phoenix hottest July and hottest October ever in our Recorded history obviously not not the entirety of history.

I think it was probably a bit warmer about 700 years ago. But anyway It was great to be in the in the I think it one night got down to 19 and That's just that that was just wonderful. I really enjoyed that and the great time of the folks there talked about every subject under the Sun it was a little bit difficult.

I spoke about ten times in three days and I'm starting to Wonder if that's a good thing to do. I may have to start asking folks to sort of back that schedule off just a little bit because By the time you get to numbers eight nine and ten, I'm not not really certain Whether that's whether it's worth Listening to me anymore at that point in time.

You're starting to get a little tired a little brain dead and So we'll have to think about that in the future. When I was 25, that was one thing but say, you know You start getting a little older and you slow down just a tad bit after about six or seven times at least if you really invest yourself and had a good time with folks there and That's the last trip before the big one into Tampa the debate with Greg Stafford on the deity of Christ is Jesus God or a God and I Can pretty much tell you exactly how that's going to go right now at least as far as the primary subjects.

The primary issue is going to be the nature of biblical monotheism. You could hear a lot about angel Christology's What defines God what monotheism truly is is Jesus Christ described as God in the way that the father is described as God or as?

Jesus Christ Christ described as God in the way that an angel might be called a divine being. That's going to be the focus because that's just simply the way that mr. Stafford Presents his case and So that's going to be something obviously.

I'm I am investing a lot of time and energy and preparation on that and I hope that those of you who Recognize how important this debate is in the overall scheme of things and the apologetic scheme of things We'll be praying for that particular encounter as it takes place then the ministry that takes place afterwards in the cruise and then right after that we will be heading out to California for the Bible answer man broadcast and so it's it's all all coming together.

Yes, the debate book with Dave hunt is still on schedule it arrived. That is the galleys arrived yesterday, and I really haven't had a chance to look at it too much but It's always exciting to see a book in its final form as far as the paginations that you never really see it.

I mean I can see it in my mind. I've written enough books now I can see what this one's gonna look like, but that'll be coming out in February. Yeah, I wish it was earlier than that, but that's just the way that works.

And I think though that unlike many other situations where we go February then it might be March then it might be April. I think this one's really going to be February. I actually think that we're going to have The book come out when it's supposed to come out and if we can get confirmation on that I'm not sure when we'll start pre sales but it will be available and I know a lot of folks looking forward to that book and It's going to be going to be very interesting.

No no two ways about it looking at that now another thing It was rather interesting is you're calling in today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is I was looking at an article from modern Reformation org November December 2003 issue and There is an article there some of you may have seen called our Mormons Trinitarian.

I immediately had to start had to start chuckling Because Mormons is misspelled. It is spelled as Anyone who has never dealt with? Mormonism Would spell it you can I can always tell when someone has has never read a meaningful word on Mormonism or Mormons.

Because they spell the word mor man and right here on modern Reformation org our Mormons Trinitarian mor man s and That's just a tad bit on the embarrassing side, but oh well Our Mormons Trinitarian is an interview with dr. David Paulson now anybody who's familiar with LDS theologians and scholars is aware of the name David Paulson and It is interesting.

I am trying to keep myself from being overly Critical in the sense that dr. Paulson obviously had a very limited space in which to give answers and let's face it when You know I've had to point out to a number of folks.

I could name names. Many times people will criticize you for an article that you write for a Whether it's in the Christian Research Journal. I just wrote an article for Modern Reformation in fact a table talk whatever it might be in people criticize you because well you didn't address this and you didn't address this and you didn't dress that and So Many times it's because well. I was not asked to do so I was asked only to dress this other aspect I only had 4 ,000 words or whatever it might be and it looks like I hear we're actually talking about a matter of a couple of hundred words.

Or maybe even only a hundred to a hundred and fifty words to respond to each of the questions that were asked. Therefore you obviously have a Tremendous limitation at that point. Dr. Paulson is professor philosophy of Brigham Young University he is The Richard L Evans professor for religious understandings.

He has held the Richard L Evans professorship for religious understanding. And I think I think Roger Keller did too if I recall correctly. Interestingly enough he has served as a bishop and as a member of a stake presidency.

Which is that actually means something to me a lot of folks who would read that might not consider that relevant? But that indicates that he's You know a lot of the LDS scholarship today, especially when it's getting a little bit on the unusual side.

The the those folks haven't served within the church in the sense of doing missionary work and and things like that so That that's important to me the answers that are given to the question are Mormons Trinitarian.

Very very interesting it was interesting to me the choices that the word choices the source choices the quotes. Choices that dr. Paulson made to present his perspective. I I Think 50 years ago the answers would have been somewhat different.

Certainly the answers that he gives are not as vague as some people give today. But it is sort of a Moderating viewpoint it is not as clear an answer as could have been given I think at least as would have been given by Mormons only a few Decades ago, but it's not quite as as vague and misleading as some of the answers that have been offered by the LDS leadership over the past number of years and so if you'd like to go to.

Well, I'm not sure exactly how to get you to this my the URL is far too long for me to give on the air. It is Christianity calm is is the main website here. I suppose what I could do is I could post the link to this on my Blog page on the front page of the website.

I suppose be a good way to do it. We'll see if we can't make that work out and and do so if you want to take a look at it, but is our Mormons misspelled Trinitarian. I suppose you just go to a modern reformation org you should be able to track that down from that perspective as well.

Take a look at it's very interesting those of you who know Mormonism will find the answers given to be at least interesting and Especially in answers to questions like this. There have been a number of discussions recently among evangelical Protestants about the nature of God's being.

Some theologians commonly called open theists are Asserting that God grows in knowledge and response the actions and choices of his creatures. Does the LDS doctrine of God Allow for a similar view of God's growing and changing according to time and circumstance.

Now the question itself is very interesting to me. I Don't think what be what is being suggested is That the open theists are among Evangelical Protestants or maybe it is. I don't know I certainly would not include an open theist amongst evangelical Protestants, but then again What either of those terms means anymore is pretty much up to anyone?

But then you also it is interesting that open theists have always at least in my reading of them done everything they can to separate themselves from the mantle of Process theology from the the moniker of a process theologian.

And yet does the LDS doctrine of God allow for a similar view of God's growing and changing? According to time and circumstance I would imagine there are some open theists that cringe at that. Because they growing and changing God is the God of process theology.

But I don't know how an open theist can it can escape that if God is learning new things and is surprised. But what people do that would result in a growth and a change in God. I don't think there's any way that that they can avoid that.

Certainly God must grow and change within an open theistic construct. They just try not to do it in the same Philosophical very strange philosophical Categories as process theology does and it shouldn't be surprising that Paulson's response is.

Thus we agree with openness thinkers that God is the most moved mover. I'm sure that Clark Pinnock is very happy to know that the Mormons would agree with him in his in his perspective and There is a rather lengthy response to that one.

That was probably about four or five hundred pages. I would say on a page is the four or five hundred words on that one. So Then of course the last question is Is it proper in light of significant differences between traditional Mormon theology and the doctrines the LDS Church call faithful Mormons Christians?

Paulson's answer of course is in the positive Yes Latter-day Saints believe that through modern-day revelation God has literally restored his New Testament Church and teachings in preparation for Christ's Second Coming.

Thus we believe that faithful members this restored church are quintessentially Christian. And I at least can respect that because if you really know what he's meaning there, he's just saying yes, we are we define Christianity and in fact you all are members of apostate churches and but then he goes on to say my response is also affirmative when I attempt to answer the question without the light of modern revelation as my responses to the preceding questions demonstrate LDS understandings of God in some respects differ significantly from conventional conservative Christian theologies.

Although some of these differences are not nearly as substantial as they are usually represented to be I'm not sure how that can be. You know, we didn't have much of quoting of the King Follett funeral discourse in this.

But anyway, however, none of these differences relevant to the question of whether faithful Latter-day Saints are Christians. So in other words the difference between polytheism and monotheism doesn't define Christianity.

Faithful Latter-day Saints put their trust in believe in and worship the New Testament Godhead. They accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They love him and seek to follow him and keep his commandments by these standards.

The earliest Saints were known as Christians by these same standards. Latter-day Saints are also Christians as well as faithful members of evangelical many other Christian churches now. There's there's where you see the fundamental change over the past 50 to 60 years in.

How a BYU professor would answer this question today as it would have been answered long long ago. He then talks about spatial constraints recommends people read Jesus the Christ and articles of faith by LDS apostle James Talmadge which I found somewhat interesting as Talmadge is very conservative on a number of things and.

Then he even gave his personal email address. David underline Paulson at BYU edu Action that that's going to result in quite an interesting number of emails heading his direction. Ah, we've got one person online.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three thirty three. Forty-one is the phone number for you to get involved in the program. Today, let's go ahead and start taking some of our calls.

Some of our calls. How can we you know? We can't take some of our calls because we only have one and therefore we'll be taking all of our calls. Not some of our calls. Some would be a part of genitive and we're taking all of them so that was a misstatement on my part and I I confess the error and.

And are you sure there's well there wasn't an expectation of more to come? But that but but you see that has not yet come into fruition and therefore I can't say some of our well We have one and there would be abiding results into the future.

But that would that would but that would require a perfect tense and we're simply talking here about a part of genitive. So we can't do that that way so I'm gonna have to restate it We are going to take the entirety of our currently available phone calls in one shot.

By talking to Aaron in California. And I'm sure that Aaron is hoping that we will get a little bit more serious and respond to his question than we just were. And not talking about yes, yes, sir Aaron you get it we get it.

James is one caller.

You know are you do you ever come into our chat channel? Yeah, I'm on right now. Aaron. License to sin.

Oh, I see you okay. Okay. Good. I just wanted to know which one to kick, okay? Okay, so you got it, huh. Good humor yes, sir. Actually actually all it shows is Aaron Lisk. So it sounds like you're lisping or something like that so yes.

Anyway, you're talking about. Before I get to that though. Do you remember the odes of Solomon you covered a few weeks ago?

You know that was one of the most one of the most popular programs. We've we've ever done. Yes. Yeah, I could.

Make recordings of those tapes and sell them to us and uptight BYU folk. I bet so I wanted to point out something. I think everyone kind of got wrapped up in all the Ridiculousness of it, but I didn't.

Matic's it. Point to that as a proof of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

What he did. No not the odes he what he did was. He referred to. Well. Oh wait a minute. Yes, you're excuse me. You are correct. He did. He tried to deny their Gnostic nature, and he identified them as Jewish Christian.

And that that was evidence of a first century Jewish Christian aware of the belief. The perpetual virginity of Mary. Yes, yes, he did. Where in the reading.

I mean ignore all the all the silliness of it. Where in the reading does it even allude to that?

Well the the concept I forget which verse it is I have to pull it up. But it was in the 19th section when it says that after she gave birth She was she was found to be as she was before. In other words there is no and that is that is what the Gnostic writer is Attempting to say is that Jesus because he does not have a physical body basically sort of beams out and There's no physical impact of the birth and so There's no question that at least on the realm of if you're going to present a docetic Jesus who do not have a real physical body, and I don't know if you've heard the debate.

But I think it was during the question answer period either when I asked him a question or somebody else's I forget which one it was. His response about the reality of Jesus's physical body was scary.

It really was. I mean it was it was I. I don't know how he would ever Respond to a docetist or to a new ager that basically denied the the the true reality of his of Christ's physical body.

So it was a strange. It was very very strange. Okay. I'll get back. I'll get to my real subject now.

Well, and I noticed that the only reason that you stopped talking while I was talking is you're trying to get back into the chat.

Channel I Have. Yes, okay, yes, okay, um I would I had a I have a good friend of mine. He I mean God bless him. He is really interested in this religious stuff but and I just and I just like when I eventually you know just got so So up up one day about how how I think Joe wouldn't so corrupt.

He's okay Let's go to my house, and we'll debate this thing again and Incredibly One of the best way and we're talking about this stuff is I decided you know be instead of talking over each other I said, okay.

You get five minutes and I get five minutes to explain myself set up like a real debate and it really worked really well. Yeah, because if you notice people casually trying to Talk about this stuff. They talk over each other.

It's really a Steadying up even casual conversations about the stuff is in a debate format works really well. So I gave him I said you have five minutes to Explain we talked a little bit about why why we shouldn't shouldn't talk about his name is Jehovah I just said listen that Jesus said that that wasn't my real interest.

I we eventually moved on to the subject of hell which. And I I gave him I gave him Seven minutes and then and then I then when it became my turn I gave I just said like I said your turn you rebut what I you rebut this then you go and read 50 definitions on the history of the and and It eventually it just kind of broke down to what I heard when you were debating against a Muslim.

What it means if I said yes, I'd like you to correct me if I'm wrong I said the word Hades or hell or dead brains don't think and there's also about which is The fire now is in on the context. That's correct, right?

Well, actually.

Hades and And Sheol of the Old Testament are are identical one another. What you're looking for is Gehenna that Jesus talked about and that is differentiated from Hades. In fact, hey a death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire in the book of Revelations.

So you need to differentiate between those two places in Luke 16. You have the realm of the dead, but it's at that time divided into two areas. What's called paradise. The bosom of Abraham and then the place where the rich man goes where he is.

Under under torment now. There are different theories as to at the resurrection of Christ did that change were those who were in Hades? Waiting the resurrection were they now ushered in the presence of Christ so that there is only one section of Hades.

They there there are those who hold that that perspective and I I think there's some some validity to that concept. But really discussing hell with Jehovah's Witnesses is is frequently a very emotional thing.

They'll frequently say well, you know, my great-grandfather was Jehovah's Witness. So you're saying he's roasting in the pits of hell today and and you don't really get anywhere at that particular point.

And I and I was as I was listening to what you were saying. You had said something about the name Jehovah and saying well Jesus referred to him as the father. One of the strongest arguments with the Jehovah's Witness and helping them to see the the context and light in which Jesus Identified as God in the New Testament is the fact that Jesus is identified as Jehovah or Yahweh.

I listen to that one right after I. Yeah that that really helps a lot in in getting them to start thinking so but you know the idea of timeframes. If you know the person that probably works real well.

The average Jehovah's Witness going door-to-door is going to completely freak out. If you even suggest such a thing because they're looking for what they call sheep like individuals. They don't have any interest in hearing what you have to say.

In fact many of them if they were to be really honest are afraid of what you would have to say not afraid in the sense that. They are are really Scared that you're right and they're wrong. But afraid of the of the idea of a person in an evangelical church.

Speaking to them. They really believe that evangelical churches. I'm talking about witnesses who've been raised in the society. They're not gonna say this overly openly, but this is definitely what they believe.

Evangelical churches are the haunt of Satan. There are demons in evangelical churches. That's why witnesses won't generally go into them. They are afraid of them. And so they they're not they really honestly believe that all you're going to be able to give to them is demonic information anyways, and.

So it's a you know that that that's why they would be really freaked out if you said well you take five minutes. I'll take five minutes. They don't want equal time. They're there to teach you their way.

They don't think they need to learn anything or can learn anything.

Well, I would do anyways. This situation is a blessing because he hope if I'm never going to get to heaven I just eternal damnation. I mean Oblivion is the best I can do and a that's not so bad. I'm just like.

Not even what the witnesses believe, but that's not even what the witnesses believe. I mean. The witnesses believe. Certainly. I can understand a witness saying I'm not going to be in the hundred and forty four thousand.

Doesn't he cannot. He's not even allowed to have a beard. He's not I mean he's time because I just wear a little goatee and I have to be one of them. I believe everything. It's just like me saying, you know, I believe I'm a Calvinist, but you know, God just told me I wasn't one of the elect so talk with it, you know.

He's kind of like it's kind of like that but oblivion is a little bit easier to stomach I guess. Wow.

That's that's pretty strange because really sad yeah, well, there is a there is a Works righteousness orientation within the way that's what broke him down and not you said, you know.

I just can't say I can't do all the work. I'm just going to live my life and accept oblivion. That's really well.

Yeah, well certainly given given their view of Christ and the fact that they they cannot even have a personal relationship with him. That that'd be a good direction to go. What they believe in the doctrine of salvation the the great crowd justification.

Generally, even your good witnesses are only going to have a certain number of passages are going to go to and once you get past. That they really don't have a lot of knowledge of those things past that so that'd be a good direction to go.

You know to say it's basically to say well, you know, what if you're wrong and oblivion isn't.

There a little modified version of Paschal's wager. That's what I finally brought up. I said listen if I'm wrong and you're right, what's it gonna hurt me? However, if you're wrong, you're gonna be in a heck of a lot of trouble.

Yeah, and I think I think Paschal's wager and the logic behind it is an incredible evangelical tool. Once you get okay I need to believe in a God. Now, which God should I believe in? Well, I would say believe in a God that has a hell because if you believe in a God that has no hit that ordains.

No, hell, then you don't really have to fear that guy. That's that's why I kind of like the God of the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons because if I'm wrong about them. Well, we're not really gonna be in that big of a trouble.

Well, we'll have a little loft in the celestial kingdom or whatever and we can kind of hang out and say well.

We did our best or whatever. Yeah. Well, I you know, I would press upon them at that point the fact that You know, he he obviously is really holding to a view of God's holiness there that in essence winks at sin and does not extract any any true Justice for the sin that has been committed.

That's there's someone who really is not under any Conviction concerning the the nature of their sin and the reality of their sins. Oh, right. Yeah, so, you know keep keep working with him, you know, if the if the five minutes a piece thing works, hey great I mean, I like I said, that's You obviously you two know each other and and that's what allows for it to happen.

Most by what you said it sounds like if converted Jehovah Witnesses will not talk with you. Then I would say the most important thing is that especially reach out to people who are being Trying to be convinced by these people because apparently that's the only reason why I can even talk to my friend.

Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean there's there's just as much validity to reaching out to someone who's in danger of becoming involved in it as there is reaching Out to the people who already are involved in it.

That's very very true. No two ways about it.

Oh, and I have one one last thing a new apologetics trick to look for it on trick, but I Was asking them, you know, how can there be just one level of oblivion if it says, you know The Pharisees are going to receive a greater damnation.

Well, the answer this is really simple. You see we are the lesser damn the people who go to the lesser damn.

I don't think that would. Yeah, I don't think that's a witness viewpoint either so he's sort of developing his own little little system there and Probably got a little rebellion going against their rules and stuff like that.

So maybe that's something you can you can utilize to keep the communication going. Okay. Okay. All right. Thanks for calling. Okay, bye. All right. Good. Bye. Bye. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven seven five three.

Three three four one. I don't think we have anyone else online. No, we're gonna take our break. And if we don't have anyone else online we get back. I do have an lengthy sections of John Denver Christmas music.

We can play so call that number be right back. Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In their book the same-sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law. In a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent.

And to return to God's plan for his people. The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at al min dot org. Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul the second to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ.

Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic.

He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God. Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven. Viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church.

Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman. The Bible calls a blessed among women and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth. You can order your copy of James White's book Mary another Redeemer at al min dot org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace. If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org.

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way. It's a journey. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty. One's a phone number.

Hey, I just got a response back from Jerry Manatee. It's live on the air. He says he's on and he says he told me he was on November 3rd. However, I didn't get any emails from mr Matics on November 3rd.

I just checked my my stuff here and I didn't didn't get it. So Cool so we're on for next Tuesday evening. I'll figure out, you know, we'll probably go at least. We'll go at least 90 minutes or so we'll get a little late start on other things we do on on Tuesday evenings next week but we'll put I'm gonna put this on the the front page that folks know that.

This is what's coming up next Tuesday evening with mr. Matics. He says we're ready to go and. And that's good, so that's. You know, that's the nice thing about Doing this live, you know my email still coming in and.

And then there's then there's those folks right now are in are in the channel and and they're encouraging me since I've. Oh, oh we did someone actually called in. That that's that's a someone really really did call in but then we can't listen to this.

And oh well, I guess we just have to hold off on that for now. But if there aren't any you know, this might be a very quick question. So maybe we'll have time to. A lot of time to finish finish up silver bells with with John Denver sometime in the future.

I Can just hear people screaming in the background. There's the delay as it all hits the the chat channel at the same time. All right, let's go ahead. That's up. Okay. Mm-hmm this thing Gotta get everything going here.