Interview With Unchurched Attendees Of Star Wars Easter Spectacle

Fighting for the Faith

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Okay, moving along. This is my interview recorded earlier with the filmmakers from Winnipeg, who actually took the time to respond to the four -color mailer flyer that was sent to them, inviting them to Church on the

00:14

Rock's Easter Star Wars spectacle extravaganza. Here we go. All right, on the line,

00:21

I have Darren and Lauren from Winnipeg, Canada. I mentioned them last week on the air and actually played some audio from their video.

00:29

These are two people who are not self -identifying as Christians who had the flyer to go and see the

00:37

Star Wars Easter spectacle at the Church on the Rock in Winnipeg, Canada, and I've invited them on Fighting for the

00:43

Faith to discuss their experience and what they thought of it. Darren and Lauren, thank you for coming on Fighting for the

00:49

Faith. Oh, thanks for having us, Chris. Yeah, thanks. Okay, so, all right, real quick for the audience.

00:57

Tell me a little bit about your religious affiliation, you know, and what you consider yourself to be at the moment.

01:05

Darren, tell me a little bit about your religious affiliation. I identify as an atheist.

01:11

I don't have any religious affiliation, whether it be Christian or otherwise. I grew up in a primarily

01:17

Christian family, but I haven't stuck with that.

01:23

I've branched out, and yeah, I currently identify as an atheist. Okay. All right, so, and then

01:29

Lauren, tell us about your religious experience. I was raised Catholic, and just growing up, just kind of got out of the

01:37

Church, and yeah, that's pretty much it. Nothing too crazy. Okay, all right, so,

01:43

I mean, neither one of you are self -identifying currently as Christians, right? No, no.

01:50

Okay, so, you know, let's use the marketing lingo that seeker -driven pastors use nowadays.

01:55

So basically, they would consider you to be unchurched people. I don't know how you use that word,

02:01

I mean, but that's the demographic that technically they would put you into, although churching somebody sounds like a very painful process, if you ask me.

02:12

Yeah, again, I'm not bristling against the idea of Christian discipleship, I just don't know what churching is, but anyway.

02:18

All right, so tell me about, you know, how did you come to hear about this Easter spectacle that included

02:25

Star Wars? Walk me through the process. What made you guys decide to go and see this? Well, it all started with a flyer.

02:34

The Church sent out these little flyers in the mail throughout the city with the, as you would see, on a new hope, if you're an avid

02:45

Star Wars fan. It was that cover, essentially, with the people from the

02:50

Church advertising this Star Wars presentation, and at first, I thought it was a bit of a joke.

02:58

I didn't actually think that they were going to be putting on a Star Wars production for Easter.

03:04

I thought that's pretty outrageous, but Lauren called me a couple weeks after and said, hey, do you want to go to this

03:13

Star Wars Easter service at Church of the Rock? And I, in that moment, realized that it was an actual show and checked out their website, and indeed, they were streaming it live on their website, and it was a full -fledged production.

03:29

So, having made some previous videos, we thought it'd be a good opportunity to maybe make another one and shed some light onto that, and yeah, kind of last minute, we decided to go on the

03:47

Sunday, and yeah, it was a bit shocking.

03:54

I'm a big Star Wars fan, too, so at first, I was a little offended that they'd be taking that kind of stance on Star Wars, but...

04:06

Okay, so the George Lucas Star Wars fans, so we're not worried about whether or not they were offensive to Christians.

04:14

I mean, this is just outright offensive to people who actually like Star Wars. Is that what you're saying?

04:21

I would perhaps go to the Church of the Rock, in which case... No, people ate that up.

04:28

They were just watching it like it was the greatest thing they've ever seen. Okay, now, I watched your video several times.

04:35

What did you think of the dancing stormtroopers? I mean, wasn't that just amazing?

04:42

You know, the funny thing about that was, on our way there, Lauren was joking and said to me, wouldn't that be hilarious if there's stormtrooper backup dancers?

04:53

Like, that would be... Lo and behold, we go there, and the first number of these stormtroopers come out and...

05:00

Do a trio. Do a trio of them. Yeah. Okay, okay.

05:07

So, I mean, as far as theatrical production value goes,

05:13

I mean, let's say, you know, 10 is a Broadway performance that you're willing to pay $150, $300 a ticket for, to maybe one being a really bad first grade school production.

05:32

Where would you put the theatrical value for this particular experience and spectacle?

05:38

On that scale, how would you rate it? I'd say the sets, and the lights, and the cameras, and everything was at an eight for sure.

05:49

Okay. And the costumes were kind of like... They built the

05:55

R2 -D2. This R2 -D2 came out, and I thought they got it from George Lucas, really.

06:02

I was like, wow, that's impressive. It was life -size, so that was really cool.

06:07

But the whole performance and everything aspect of it, that would be on the lower end of things,

06:14

I believe. Yeah, no, it was... Yeah, in terms of Lauren saying sets and things, they had a fog machine.

06:21

They had a live band. The amount of money and time they must have put into this, I don't even quite frankly want to know, but yeah, in terms of that, it was pretty big production.

06:33

The performance itself, I mean, they took top 40 songs, and we tried to put a spin on them into Christian music.

06:43

Yeah, like Han Solo sang Space Cowboy. Okay. So Han Solo's Space Cowboy.

06:52

Oh, my. Okay. Very thought out, that's for sure. And yeah, the resources they must have...

06:59

Okay, so there's kind of like two things you're looking at here, then. It's like the set itself, they clearly spent a lot of money on the set.

07:09

Oh, yeah. Okay, so as far as that production value is concerned, you're saying that's an eight?

07:15

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, for that. That was impressive. I had a lot of fun.

07:21

I mean, how much money do you think they dropped on this production? I mean, we're talking 10s, 20s, $30 ,000, $50 ,000.

07:28

How much are we talking here? I mean... Because I'm not sure if a lot of it was if they had to rent the lights or anything, or if they already had it.

07:39

I believe they already had it. But yeah, they had to construct it.

07:45

So it would probably be almost close to double digits. Okay. All right.

07:53

Okay, so we got that. Then as far as, let's say the show performance itself, on a scale of one to 10, where would you grade that?

08:01

I mean, we know the set's like an eight, but what about the artistic score here?

08:07

Where would you put it? Yeah, definitely on the lower end of the scale, I'd say maybe like a one.

08:13

Yeah. Some of the performers were... Credit to the people.

08:19

They had some good voices and stuff, but if you're... But yeah, the whole thing was just cut.

08:27

They just cut a lot of the movies and spliced it together, which I mean, you kind of have to do, but Luke Skywalker in the movie

08:36

Han Solo goes into that bat and turns into it and gets frozen. But Luke Skywalker, it was just all jumbled up, but whatever.

08:46

Okay. So the theatrical performance, not so much, on the lower end of the scale. Got it.

08:51

Okay. All right. So here's kind of the burning question I have is, how did they weave a

09:00

Christian message into the story of Star Wars? And did you find the parallels that they were trying to tease out between the

09:09

Star Wars themes and Christian theology, did you find those to be valid parallels or strained parallels or not really seeing the connection at all?

09:20

I mean, just kind of walk me through theologically, what was the message of this show?

09:27

You know, that was one of those, I was sitting through that, trying to decipher that throughout the show itself.

09:36

Very few parallels are made to do anything, anything Christian at all.

09:41

You know, they took top 40 songs, as I mentioned, as opposed to, you know, what

09:47

I assumed would have been hymns or something along those lines. And the story itself, they didn't really weave any theology into it.

09:58

It was just kind of almost a story of Star Wars, but flipped around, they took, like, local town names and made jokes about them.

10:07

And like, it really was incredibly loosely based. And I was kind of waiting for the punchline, you know, where they, you know, go into why this is this or this character represents, you know, this biblical person.

10:21

And it just never really, it really happened. And at the end of the entire production, they did quite an upbeat, happy, clappy.

10:35

Yeah, it was a top 40 song, too, that they just flipped around with Christian. This was the only one they did happen to do.

10:42

But yeah, just in general, like it, I certainly didn't draw really any parallels.

10:48

The only thing would be Luke Skywalker, because in the pamphlet, you had to guess which

10:57

Star Wars character was a Bible character. And the only one that I got was

11:03

Luke Skywalker with Jesus. And I think Darth Vader may have been Judas, but I don't know.

11:11

So that's the only one I got was Luke Skywalker. Okay, well, that's kind of weird. Did Luke Skywalker in the production die for people and rise again from the grave?

11:23

I mean, that I don't recall that in the Star Wars movies. In what sense is he a Jesus character?

11:29

Or at least how do they try to portray him as a Jesus character? Yeah, nothing.

11:36

Yeah, he goes into the past and gets frozen. And then they talk about how he's gone.

11:43

And then all of a sudden, he comes back again. So that was the only thing but like everything leading up to it was not like Jesus like or anything.

11:54

Okay, so they froze Luke Skywalker rather than Han Solo is what you're saying? Yeah, yeah.

11:59

So they flipped that to try and make the connection. The only connection kind of made.

12:06

Right. Okay. All right. Yeah, I'm kind of at a loss here.

12:13

I I because here's the deal is that this pastor makes no bones about the fact that the whole production itself was, you know, an evangelistic outreach to make

12:24

Christianity relevant to the unchurched people. Do you feel after sitting through this spectacle that that Christianity is now relevant to you?

12:36

Not in the slightest. Yeah, I think

12:42

I can Yeah. For the the younger crowd in that audience, which there was a lot of they had a lot of children and stuff.

12:50

I mean, that was certainly I can imagine that reaching out to that, you know, that age group of people, certainly you see you go to church and you see a big

12:59

Star Wars production. And you might not know what it's about. But you know, afterwards, your parents tell you or you go to, you know, a youth group and kind of learn about that.

13:09

And it's something that's, you know, that's cool as young, they're doing something that's, you know, interesting and different.

13:16

But for myself, you know, I, in fact, it actually kind of kind of shifts me more to, to the other end of this spectrum.

13:28

And instead of, you know, you know, closer to, to Christianity. So what you're saying is, is that the the way to to convert an atheist from being an atheist to being a

13:42

Christian is not to just to entertain him, or make him laugh or give him a couple hours of something amusing to look at?

13:50

Is that are you basically saying that entertainment is not a compelling reason for you to basically give up your atheism there,

13:57

Darren? Not at all, no. Yeah, I mean, yeah,

14:04

I mean, that's, yeah, I don't even know how to, yeah, no.

14:12

This didn't do the trick, he's still an atheist. Okay, so I'm, I'm certainly not trying to, to, to find things in Christianity that are going to to make me think similarly, or, you know, convert myself.

14:27

Right. Yes, for that sake. But if it were, if I were to, that a

14:36

Star Wars production of the Easter story certainly wouldn't be the thing to kind of 360 my point of view.

14:44

Right. Actually, it'd be a 180. A 360 would have you start at atheism, spin all the way around and be an atheist still.

14:50

That's, yeah, yeah, we, we want to, we want you to do a 180. But that, that's something completely different.

14:56

Okay. I mean, how about you, Lauren? I mean, you, you grew up Roman Catholic. I mean, after finding out how much these people care about you so much that they want to entertain you.

15:05

I mean, if you were to think about going back to a church, I mean, having not been in a church for a long period of time, because they made you laugh and entertained you and kind of were quirky with the

15:14

Star Wars story, would be, would this be the church that you would want to go to? No.

15:21

Growing up, like I went to, I guess Roman Catholic is very, like, by the book, for lack of a better term, it's more, you go there, you listen to scripture from the

15:33

Bible, you sing some songs, you have communion and stuff like that. And so I've never really been exposed to, like, the evangelical type service.

15:43

So, no, Star Wars didn't really hit home for me for that.

15:49

Right. So what you, I want to make sure, I'm going to highlight something here that you said.

15:55

You found that the Roman Catholic Church was more focused on the Bible than what you saw in this evangelical production, correct?

16:04

Yeah. Got it. Yeah, like normal mass would be, you talk about, we'll listen to scripture or a passage from the

16:13

Bible, and then the priest will talk about how it will relate into nowadays.

16:20

That's the church where I grew up, so you talk to the Bible, and then he would say, this is how you can use some of the teachings in your everyday life.

16:27

Right. So the Roman Catholic Church is more biblical than the Church on the Rock. Yeah. Man, I'm going to tell you, there's a lot of people in hearing you say that that are just going to have a huge knee -jerk reaction, but I think they need to go through these convulsions myself.

16:43

Okay, so... Well, I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, I'm just saying that's how I grew up, so to each their own, in a sense, right?

16:50

Right, right. I've never sat through an actual evangelical service before, because we left before the whole service started, so we saw the show and left, so we don't know if they talked about how

17:05

Star Wars related to the Bible after we want to stay, because we're like, this is crazy.

17:13

Well, I'm convinced that if a Roman Catholic Church had tried to put on this production and tried to somehow weave it into the

17:18

Bible, they might have started with saying, may the force be with you, and then the people would have said, and also with you, and then the guy would have said, and now if we're reading from the

17:26

Gospel of Luke, I mean, because, you know... Yes! You can write this, there you go!

17:32

Yeah, exactly. Okay, so, all right, so neither one of you...

17:38

So the production and the entertainment and kind of the big question marks that were left in your mind theologically, at the end of it, neither one of you felt compelled to drop to your knees in penitence because of your sins and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins after watching this

17:58

Star Wars production. Is that safe to say? Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, that's okay.

18:05

Okay, and did you learn anything substantial about Christianity through this production at all?

18:10

I mean, did you feel like, at the end of it, it's like, oh wow, I really have a deeper understanding of the

18:15

Christian faith after sitting through this production? No, not in the slightest.

18:23

In fact, yeah, I was actually quite confused. Okay, so it actually left you confused.

18:29

Yeah, yeah, very much so. Okay, so at least when it comes to you two, this was not an effective evangelism outreach program.

18:41

No. Got it. Okay, so, oh wow.

18:47

And I guess I'm really saddened by all of this, at least in this sense, because what you've described is a church that has spent a lot of money, that has put in a lot of hours of writing a script and doing rehearsal and hiring the musicians and writing the music and sending out those four -color mailers that,

19:08

I mean, you showed that in your video, you had a copy of the mailer, and advertising it on the internet and all this kind of stuff, and at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, you didn't even hear anything remotely with any depth regarding what the message of Christianity is, who

19:26

Jesus Christ is, that He died on the cross for your sins, that there's really good news and that He rose again from the grave for you, and you never really heard a clarion call to repent and trust in Christ so that you, too, can have eternal life that's offered in Jesus.

19:45

You didn't hear any of that. No. Then the question is, what on earth did they spend all that money for, then?

19:53

I mean, ultimately, what do you think the purpose of the production was if it wasn't for that?

20:01

I think it was, you know, the purpose was to get people to their church, you know?

20:07

I think this was a way to draw people, because it's not something, you know, every church does.

20:14

It was quite unique, and for all the wrong reasons, but, you know, and the more people you get into your church, the more, you know, money gets spilled into your church, and, you know, the more people you reach for their own purposes, and, you know,

20:32

I think that was the biggest, you know, driver behind this production was getting people, and they did.

20:38

Like, the venue itself, like this church, as you can see from the outside in the video, it's a massive complex.

20:47

Like, it's a hockey rink. It used to be a warehouse, but then they redid it, and it looks really nice in there, too.

20:54

Yeah, and it was packed on Sunday morning, and I wouldn't doubt it was packed Saturday and Sunday.

21:01

They had a few runs of the show. I think they had six, maybe, runs of the show. I could be wrong, but there was more than two, for sure.

21:08

There was some on Saturday and Sunday. Right, and I saw in your video that they were passing the bucket and, you know, taking an offering to support the, you know, the cost of the building and the set and all of that kind of stuff.

21:22

You know, one of the things I've pointed out on my program is that this particular model for doing church, and I'm putting church in air quotes there, is extremely expensive, and I liken those buildings as to kind of like permanent television studios where they always have to kind of up themselves, you know, and even have greater spectacle over and again in order just to keep the people coming in so that they can raise the money so that they can keep the show going.

21:50

It's like a perpetual show rather than just kind of a one -time thing. Do you think that's a fair way to describe them?

21:58

Oh, absolutely, you know. I mean, it was quite clear after seeing this production, you know, it's like, if that's what they feel it takes to get people to their church, then, you know,

22:12

I question, you know, what are they actually doing it for, is it, you know, to share their gospel, how they feel the

22:24

Bible should be taken? Is that really at the heart of what they're doing, or is it to get more people, get more money?

22:31

And I'm left with a lot of those questions, especially, you know, after seeing something like this.

22:40

It's... I should be afraid, but the method is kind of wonky in that sense.

22:46

Okay, so it's a wonky method, huh? Yeah. Okay, all right.

22:54

I think that's a good way of putting it. So, all right.

23:01

Well, I don't think I have any other questions for you, and I think you've kind of painted the picture, you know, obviously, like I said, you were the target that they were trying to reach, and at the end of it you are left with major theological questions, big questions about why, and no more...

23:20

you didn't leave with any, you know, with any greater sense of clarity regarding the Christian faith after watching the show and the production.

23:30

Although, based on your YouTube channel, I'm pretty convinced that if another church does something similar, you'll probably be traveling and making another video.

23:39

Oh yeah! Well, I appreciate you taking the time to come on Fighting for the

23:47

Faith, and let me just say this, that I don't think that they did a very good job of portraying what

23:53

Christianity is and what the message is, and it would be unchristian of me to not say that the

24:01

Christian message is so much better than what you saw in that Star Wars production, and that there is a

24:07

God, and that God actually came to Earth and was incarnate of the

24:12

Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, as you would know, Lauren, and He died on the cross for our sins.

24:18

That'd be your sins and mine, and He rose again on the third day. I mean, there's some really good, deep answers that Christianity has to the problem questions that we have in life, and I think they're far more satisfying than the answers that are out there in other religions or even atheism.

24:35

And I hope that even though the production itself was wonky and all that kind of stuff, that that would not keep you from examining the claims regarding Jesus Christ, and who

24:47

He is, and what He's done, and what He's accomplished, and really the hope and the good news that He brings to the world.

24:55

Yeah, well, yeah. You know, you and I disagree pretty heavily on that.

25:02

So that's a whole different conversation. I agree, it's a different show, and I just wanted to put that out there.

25:09

I didn't want to debate you, but I just wanted to basically say that what you saw really wasn't the Christian message properly portrayed, and it's just my invitation to you to basically say that if you want to know what the

25:23

Christian faith is, you know, it's a lot deeper than that. And I would even invite you, you know, spend some time listening to my program,

25:31

Fighting for the Faith, because one of the things I try to do is not only portray and proclaim the historic

25:37

Catholic faith, Catholic with a small c, but also, you know, deal straight up and authentically with the fact that there's a lot of people out there who are representing

25:47

Christianity who, for what one reason or another, are not rightly handling the message or purposefully trying to hide the message of what it's about.

25:57

And there's so much more to Christianity than what you saw, and, you know,

26:03

I'm saddened that you left with, you know, that kind of bad, wonky taste in your mouth, you know?

26:11

So just a quick question before I go, both of us are really curious, how you came across our video from Indiana?

26:20

Well, funny enough, I covered the Star Wars story a little bit on my program, and had mentioned it on my program in the lead -up to Easter, and a listener from your area saw your video and posted it on my

26:36

Facebook wall. And my Facebook wall has a lot of traffic on it where people are putting up suggestions for things that they think would be, you know, something

26:47

I would be interested to cover on my radio program, and your video was one of the things that showed up on there.

26:53

And after watching it, I knew that, number one, I had to actually play some of the audio of what it is that you recorded in your video, but also invite you on the air, because I knew that your story was important to be heard, you know, from your particular point of view as people who are quote -unquote unchurched, because you were the people that they were trying to reach out to.

27:14

Yeah, okay, interesting. Very cool. All right. Well, Darren and Lauren, thank you for your time, and thank you for taking the time to actually go out and make that video.

27:25

I think what you actually did was important work, and I hope that it will be a catalyst for some of these pastors who are into this entertainment - driven methodology to maybe reconsider what it is that they're doing.

27:38

Great. Well, thanks, Chris, we really appreciate you hooking this interview up and talking to us.

27:45

Appreciate it just as much as you do, Phil. All right. Keep in touch. If you guys can do another video like that, you know, send me a message.

27:51

I'd like to see what other work you guys are up to. You guys are troublemakers. Of course.

27:58

All right. Thank you. Thank you. So what'd you think? I'd love to get your feedback.

28:04

If you'd like to email me regarding anything you've heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith, you can do so.

28:09

My email address is talkbackatfightingforthefaith .com, or you can subscribe on Facebook, facebook .com

28:15

forward slash piratechristian, or you follow me on Twitter, my name there, at piratechristian. Quick break, when we come back, contestant number two,

28:22

Steve Kelly from Wave Church and his Beatles Easter Sermon for our Worst Easter Sermon of the

28:28

Year contest. Don't want to miss it. We'll be right back. No itching ears are scratched here.