TIL- Hebrews 2:4; 5-8

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. I am grateful to have.

Dan the Presbyterian back with me. How you doing Dan. Much better than I have been. How are you doing?

I'm doing well. I'm so thankful that you're doing better than you have been and you're back. We're back together and we can start doing podcast again. Because I missed it I miss discussing God's Word with you and being able to share it with other people and so I'm thankful that Everything is going much better.

How was how was your new one? And how are your other children? Oh.

Good. Everybody's doing great. And the wives. Yeah, they're all doing great. All of them baptized, you know. Even better all of them doing great all of them covenant children.

And and I think your wife is.

Contemplating her own podcast. Is that correct? Yeah, she's rolling it around rolling the idea around in her head. She's got some good ideas. The the thing is trying to find time to do it all. So yeah, we'll see.

I'll be excited to see what she comes up with me, too.

I'm excited about it too. And so we want to encourage her. So pray for Dan and I pray for the laborers podcast and all the guys that participate. Pray for Becky. Yes, she she works through this and she fulfills that passion to be able to get out God's Word herself.

So I'm thankful and I'm grateful and excited what all God's doing in all of us, so this is fun. This is fun. So we're gonna jump back into Hebrews.

That's okay with you, brother. That's fine with me. Hebrews.

And I Wanted to go back a few verses. I know we've already covered it but the the topic of Cessation ism and continuation ism keeps coming back up which is which is good because There there are some doctrines like credo and pedo-baptism that we as a Greater church is a universal church.

We've not nailed down to a foundational How would you say it a? Doctrine that we it's across the board.

We pretty much there's pretty much agreement on. Well, I mean most of us have but you Baptists are lagging behind a little bit. Sorry had to but yeah, yeah, I get what you're saying.

You know what you do you do fall in good company with with Catholics and Methodists and Lutheran. So I'm looking.

Episcopalians Orthodox.

There you go.

Oh.

But yeah, and that's true that's true. I guess we would be in the minority.

But I get what you're saying though. Yeah.

Even in the in the mode of baptism you have discussion and so cessation of cessation ism continuation ism is just another one of those doctrines that There's not a majority Agreement on across the board and it's I think it's good that the conversation keeps coming up.

So we can We want to hear what God has to say. And that sometimes that's difficult for us. It's difficult for us to you know, scripture says the Holy Spirit is our teacher you don't have need for another one, which is one of those difficult passages because there's the there's office or gifting of teacher.

But the Holy Spirit is our teacher. And There are certain doctrines that we believe are clear and that's why Dan and I's as Baptists and Presbyterian can work together. So it's good that it keeps coming up because we would hear what God has to say.

Soften our thick heads Our sinful minds and help us to learn and we pray that in the name of Jesus Through the Holy Spirit because we we want to know we want to please God and so it's not a matter of fist fighting one another but Learning to please God.

Would you agree with that? Yep. Awesome. So what this would be one of the verses and I think I know where you fall on this. We've not had this conversation. And we may have talked about it before and I may have forgotten but I would say that this is one of the verses that if you are a cessationist, which means that the How would you label them the the apostolic gifts or certain gifts?

Mentioned in the New Testament have have ceased with apostolic age.

Have ceased to have a normative regular function. Okay. Because that's that's one thing and I don't know the definition seems to be shifting for what a cessationist is but from from my understanding. Maybe I'm maybe I'm just by the time the cessation is the one who believes that the the main Sign gifts so to speak, you know speaking in tongues gifts of healing stuff like that.

Cease to have a normative use. With the closing of the canon now, obviously God can do whatever he wants to if he wants to give somebody a gift of tongues today, you know. Good on him, but not gonna keep the Holy Spirit from doing whatever he wants to.

He wants to heal somebody. I've heard several instances of people healing being healed. One guy from from cancer another one from they'd had no idea what was wrong with him and they prayed and the doctor said it.

Was a miracle. I think of Jeff Durbin's son out or adopted son out in Arizona said he had spina bifida and doesn't. So yeah, God can heal and cause people speaking tongues or whatever. But we believe that those those gifts have ceased to be normative for the church.

So they're not. Everyday occurrence don't follow the offices the offices of the church around right?

So by that definition, I really like that definition so about that definition as a cessationist I Would I would hold on to that? I would cling to that definition it. It. Do you want to show your cards?

Is that where you fall? Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, we're. I did I did a podcast Responding to a continuationist and I did it with Big John and of course, he's a continuationist. Sure, and so with with Dan and I who are both cessationist again.

We're not trying to team up or or yeah team up on anybody. That's a continuationist. We're going to share our perspective and I think those people who are cessationist Would use this Hebrews chapter 2 verse 4 passage in support of that.

They would not some point some would some would. Not all. You would. You would or wouldn't. I don't think I would. We'll talk about it as we get into it and I'll explain why.

Okay, do you do you want to start there or do you want to do you want me to start with what I'm seeing? Or do you want to start a few verses above or how do you?

Let's start. Let's start back in the first couple verses and gain some context. Okay, we'll just do that real real real quick. Okay. You won't pop it up on the screen. Yeah, sure.

I'll have to. There we go. Get rid of this.

Pop this up. Boom. All right, and in case anybody wonders why? His has slightly different words than mine. I'm reading from the ESV my paper version down here. Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard lest we drift away from it.

Now everything in the Previous point is talking about Christ being greater than the angels Christ being God. He's you know, the The one who upholds the universe by the the word of his power. He made purifications for sins.

He's a radiance of the glory of God the exact imprint of his nature Proclaiming the deity of Christ and his salvation. He provides for mankind. So we have to pay attention to that To what we have heard so we don't drift away from it.

We don't drift away from it by Either neglecting who Christ is in a lazy sense or in a sense where we follow after other things, you know the Israelites who went after the golden calf, you know said that they believed in God.

But they were gonna worship this golden calf like he was God. It wasn't God. So moves on it says. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received just retribution.

Or since the angels word was true How shall we escape verse 3 if we neglect such a great salvation? So what's being declared here in the first chapter in the first few verses and I would Argue through the next little bit is the salvation is being brought to mankind through Jesus Christ.

That's what's being declared. So a second half of verse 3 says it was declared at first by the Lord.

1.

And it was attested to us by those who heard 2 and then verse 4 I'm gonna bring something out and then we'll back up and then we can move back through it. Well, God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to as well so I see right there is a declaration of Salvation of Jesus Christ coming to mankind and it also fulfilling old teth the Old Testament laws requirements of Establishing a matter on the on the the basis of two or three Witnesses.

Now a lot of times that has to do with accusing someone of a crime but I also think it. It works here. I mean you remember Jesus talking about Talking the Pharisee saying he made a claim, you know, I bear witness That I'm a son of God and so does my father in heaven.

So he made sure that he had more than one witness for his claim he's established on the basis of two or three witnesses. So the two or three witnesses you see here are Jesus Christ speaking of. This thing's mirrored.

It's getting me his uh His salvation that he has called out to mankind.

He's.

Attesting to salvation that he's bought and purchased with his own blood. We've heard about it through the Apostles and then we're hearing about it. Also as attested to By God the Father through signs wonders Miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit that are distributed according to God's will.

That's kind of the context of where we find this This passage so I didn't know if you want to say something then we kind of go over it and.

No, we'll go ahead and. Yeah, if you want to keep going and share your take on it. Sure concerns the cessation.

So.

What I see here as I see That one of the ways that God's going to authenticate the message of the gospel Is going to be through signs wonders miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now I one of the reasons why I don't think we can use this as a passage.

In.

Favor of cessation ism because it really doesn't talk about those that. That authentication stopping at any point. Now with our definition of it being normative maybe but it just it doesn't bring up a timeline of stopping here in this text.

And Why that's relevant is because you you hear Instances of people who have heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and been preached to it by Preach the gospel by men. So they've got the witness of the gospel itself through Jesus Christ and the witness of a man preaching to them and then especially through the Muslims and in those who are coming out of the New Age community.

Which is interesting because they have their own idea of the cosmic Christ, which is nothing like Jesus Christ but they'll actually have Visions or dreams.

That.

Basically to them authenticate that message. Now, I don't necessarily think that's normative.

But.

It is something that God does. So I don't necessarily think that we can use This particular passage to say that it has ceased being a normal function in the church but I Don't I don't think it it it proves a stopping point one way or the other.

I think it's because I don't think that's what the passage is trying to talk about. I think the passage is trying to speak about. The the Christ is is superior. Christ has brought salvation and that particular truth the gospel of Jesus Christ has been authenticated through the three witnesses of Christ the Apostles and the signs and wonders brought by God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely and I agree with with everything that you just said. To the to the point where. You know, I had to think of this as well. And the timeline question. You know where you were you're talking about.

You don't see a timeline where it's. It says that they ceased or they or they stopped.

Being normative. I also don't see it saying that it continues either. I just don't think it says Stays or it goes. I just don't think you get that here. I just think it's talking about the authentication of the gospel, right?

Well, you think you're welcome to correct me and we're welcome to disagree so when it comes to the timeline and And I'm like you he's he's not answering that direct question Specifically, but I think in in addressing The topic that he is talking about it does help answer another question, which is the one that we're talking about.

Or at least it touches on it. So where I see the timeline Dan is when it said at the end of in the verse 3 After after it was at the first spoken through the Lord. There's where the message started. It was confirmed to us By those who heard it.

Mm-hmm. And God also testifying with them and so The the those that heard it and the them. They do have a timeline because they didn't live forever. They did have a timeline. Well, I wouldn't say Jesus didn't live forever.

Well except for Jesus and God the Holy Spirit, right?

I'm not including him. He's he's the one who first brought the message. I'm talking about those that heard it from the Lord sure. You know those who are mortal.

Apostles disciples. Mary Magdalene. Oh, yeah. Yes, so they had a timeline and they expired.

Sure, and so kind of ease. Well.

We were gifted their words through the Through the power of the Holy Spirit and it was preserved by the power of the Holy Spirit, right, right. But I get what you're saying, yeah, I'm having too much fun with this being back after so long.

You're trying to get me tied up.

I'm not trying.

But it seems like the way it reads is that the signs and wonders. The miracles and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Were.

Part of the testifying with the them. Sure and the them have a timeline and they finished their service here on earth and So we do not see it. Like you said, there's not a there's not an indication here that they continued either.

There's just the indication that these signs and miracles Accompany them now. Now I will have to agree with you and You know, I was having a conversation with pastor pastor Jonathan about this as well and he he leans toward in this particular verse that It doesn't say that it's it's ceased with the Apostles that it it just doesn't say that which It doesn't It doesn't.

So, you know, I have to have to yield to that with you guys now.

I do think I do think that. If if proved other what other places.

That you.

Could understand this passage in that way. I just don't think that it's provable from the text itself. Yeah. Like one of those things like this doesn't prove it, but if it's proved elsewhere. You can see it there, right?

Not a main point, but you can see it off in the shadows on the side, right?

Yeah, and with a biblical biblical type theology instead of systematic. You look at the the whole of the New Testament the pattern of New Testament the the role of the Holy Spirit using these miracles signs and wonders and spiritual gifts.

It seems that they back off from being in use as the New Testament goes on. You don't see them as Functioning they don't have as much function or Use as they will.

Maybe.

You also have to think about what is the purpose of the New Testament and the purpose of the New Testament is really to declare the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his glory and supremacy in all things, right?

Well, so I don't necessarily know as if you would see a lot of I Don't know as if you'd see a lot of authentication, you know examples outside of the ones that we have. If it was going to continue. Because it's just not the it's just not the purpose of the New Testament, right?

So I guess I guess you and I can do another episode on this particular issue. We don't have I don't I really want to pick your brain. With you being a cessationist like me. I would like to pick your brain and say okay if this isn't the verse.

Where do you go to to hold that position, but we can do that another time. I just wanted to address. Because this is a verse. I know Phil Johnson. He uses this text As as a proof for cessationism, so maybe we can do a another podcast just you and I talking about.

While we're cessationist. Sure. Yeah, that would be good. Yeah, I would enjoy that.

So the next two verses and it looks like So that we can keep up with our pattern of our new pattern of 30 minutes here. Before we get into verses 9 through 18 and hit a new section. I wanted to touch on this This sandwich here.

You have verse 5 and verse 8 as the bread and then you have the meat in the middle. And kind of get your thoughts because of course I'm being influenced to not influenced in Necessarily Changing my mind but influenced to think.

I'll say that with the the podcast that we shall not name We're still on that. But I'm being encouraged. I'm being influenced to think and so that that's why this these verses are coming back up. So you're in verse 5 and he says Yes on the screen for he did not subject to angels the world to come concerning which we are speaking.

So.

What's your understanding of the world to come are we talking about the Millennial Kingdom this kingdom that Jesus has brought down that he has started and that he is now continuing is. That is that the world to come because we've talked about how angels the Lord had angels and Princes we you know, we we brought that up it from Daniel Influence or kind of have some rule and authority over nations Enemies of Israel and they come against Israel these these angels or demons.

But in this new world It doesn't seem like he has put the angels he's taken that Authority away from them and there's a new authority in town. How are you? How are you feeling about that? I.

Don't I.

Don't know.

I do think it was when it's how about the world to come. Here is talking about the world to come in the consummation and Here's and here's why It says the world to come of which we are speaking. He's already been talking about Salvation and I understand New Testament salvation to be.

I don't know everything wrapped up in Justification being declared right before God on the basis of Christ works and righteousness and not our own or sanctification. We were drawn along and Being made more and more like Christ being drawn into further union with him.

I was gonna throw out a word, but I'll take up the whole rest of the podcast on that a Glorification which would be the the final, you know resurrection of our bodies and the glorification of us in body and soul and spirit All all of all of the man being redeemed.

So.

When he's talking about that salvation it says of The angels aren't sub aren't the world isn't subject to the angels in the world to come. It then goes on to describe That we don't see everything put under man's feet as of yet but what we do see in the interim is Christ who has come and suffered Death so that by the grace of God at the end of verse.

What is it? Nine? He might taste death for everyone. So what I see here is it's pointing to the consummation all the while in the middle showing how Christ is the one who is fulfilling that That dominion mandate to put everything that we need to say be fruitful multiply subdue the earth fill it.

And we botched that through sin and we did said destroyed the earth and we still tried to fill it and take it over. But he's now putting all of his enemies under his feet. The dominion mandate still gonna be fulfilled.

This can be fulfilled through the power of Jesus Christ in this gospel.

So.

It's showing a. This is where we're at now, which is the part where Christ is putting everything under his feet. And in the process leading us towards the consummation where man being joined with God, which is.

We could go on with that. That's a that's a whole right a whole thing. But I do think that part of our union with God.

Is.

Found in this passage, which would be called Adoption or If you look at 2nd Peter 2nd Peter calls it being partakers of the divine nature. What the heck? Well, what does that mean? Protectors of the divine nature and that I'll throw out this word.

This is word that I've been. I've been listening to a Lutheran guy and some some reform folks and it's not really a big word and reform circles most people think of the the Eastern Orthodox who when they Think of it.

It's the words theosis and it means. Basically, it's the idea of becoming more and more like God in a.

I.

Say a real sense because depending on who you talk to it's a little bit different. The Orthodox think that we're actually being made Ontologically, which means like in our very essence nature and makeup are being made more.

More like Christ we're being made more godlike. The Lutherans would back off a little bit and say that it's dealing with our union with Christ and that we are being brought in as brothers to Christ and sons and daughters of of God and the reformed would be.

More along that camp we would understand adoption. To be the basically the same thing that we were adopted made a part of God's family. We have been made partakers of the divine nature. In the sense that we're going to be sinless without the ability to sin that we're going to be.

You know, we won't be God but we will have taken some of his. Some of his attributes. So to speak which like I said, that's a big can of worms with three minutes left in this little 30.

Well, I mean I was gonna ask you. I mean how how close does that tiptoe through the tulips towards Mormonism.

Well, here's the thing. Way back and I forget who says I want to say it's either. Somebody with an a and I can be wrong. It's one of the early fathers. They actually said this. They said Christ became man.

That man may become God. And what they meant by that wasn't what the Mormons said. I actually have this in my in my notes, you know Mormons, right. They did not mean what the Mormons meant when they say that.

What they meant was that Christ became man if we follow the passage.

Through.

Let me just jump ahead real quick to Verse 11 Says for he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he's not ashamed to call them brothers. He is we've been linked unionized weird word With Christ in verse 4 14 since therefore the children share in flesh and blood since we're flesh and blood.

He.

Himself likewise partook of the same things that through death he might destroy the one who has power of death. That is the devil. So he Destroyed death and the devil. He in 15 delivered those who were enslaved to the fear of death verse 17.

He made propitiation of for sins verse 18. He was a helper to sinners. Verse 17 though says therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect so that he might become a merciful and faithful High priest in service to God to make propitiations for the sins of the people.

So in Christ taking on a human nature and Dying in our place. He has sucked us up into The divine nature. Somewhat. Not the we're God, but the we're now be rightly called Brothers of Christ. We are adopted into the family of God.

We're part of the is the next. The next chapter talks about being built up into the house of God.

Do you think it'd be more do you think it would help us to understand it better if we go back to how we try? To understand being made in the image of God so we God has given us some of the Communicable attributes where we can we can you know communicate we can love we can forgive, you know.

So we have those attributes. So is that kind of what you're talking about when as we become more like Christ Those attributes that we have that he has given us will be perfected.

Sure, yeah, especially because when you think of Adam and Eve in the garden before they sinned they had the choice They could sin or not sin.

When.

What I think part of being made partakers of the divine nature is going to mean is That we're gonna lose that ability to sin or not sin. Well now to sin, but if we have the ability to please God one day the ability to sin will not no longer be ours.

So when he said Don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

And.

If we hadn't we would have remained in the sinless state. I think that we're going to be made. Excuse me where we won't be able to sin in the future. That's something that we didn't have in the garden, but that we could have had.

Not that we are Divine not that we become eternal not become gods in the sense that we are Now of the same substance. No, it doesn't become no from Trent father son and Holy Spirit to an Infinity where it's father son Holy Spirit and all the Saints that we don't rise to that level.

Right, but we're made more like God and that we can't sin. We will be good loving kind and and and perfectly so. With an inability to do otherwise. The sin that we hated has been wrecked from us and we no longer no longer have it nice.

Awesome that will be what a glorious day my spirit that song. What a day. What a glorious day. That will be. Well as we wrap up Let me ask you about Where I started with a verse 5 and verse 8. You kind of brought Salvation you looked at it in a holistic sense with justification sanctification and glorification.

Is it is it possible? Because you I kind of described how I was seen verse 5. Is it possible that I'm seeing this in a holistic sense as well. Where? Obviously, I mean he says he He did not subject to angels.

So he's taking away the authority that they once had in this world to come.

So.

Could it begin with the kingdom and include the consummation? You know in a holistic sense because Jesus now, I mean Matthew 28. He now has authority in heaven and on earth over all things. So it would fit there.

That he he's the one who has authority over everything in heaven on earth. He's taking it away from angels.

So.

With this Taking away their authority begin with the kingdom include the consummation and.

Therefore on into eternity. Yeah, I think it's definitely a Process that leads to an event. Um, so to speak so. So we're we're not seeing everything in subjection to him now, but we are seeing Christ Who has put an end to sin death in the devil and we're going to continue to see everything as it says in verse 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet until that's completed and done with so it's it's uh, I think the world to come of which he's speaking of verse 5 is the consummation but verse 6 7 8 and Really all the way through the end of the chapter is talking about, you know, how we get there, you know.

How are we going to? You know find and finalize it. We're gonna finalize it because Christ is going to do it not because we're gonna do it, right?

Well, I appreciate that tease. Because that's gonna that's what we're gonna do. Next in our next episode is look at verses. Verses 9 through 18 of chapter 2 in Hebrews. And. Our desire is for Everyone who hears listens and also will share that desire.

If you are a believer in Christ if you have bowed the knee He's made you born again that you would have this same desire that we have that those who have not been born again that have not bowed the knee to Christ that they would because.

At some point it's beyond the point of no return at some point. Every knee will bow every time will confess. Whether you did here on earth or not. And for those who have not Will Will face an eternity of eternal destruction in a place called hell.

And we we do not desire that for for anyone. We don't know God's elect. We love the gospel. We're thankful and grateful for the gospel and in our lives because God has rescued us through his son Jesus.

And we want to offer that rescuing for you as well if you do not know him and encourage you if you do to share the gospel of somebody else that as we talked about Adam and Eve already that sin entered into this world come into the mix and.

Then.

Sin ruined it for for all of us. We're we're all sinners we can't do anything but sin apart from Christ and there's judgment for sin for disobeying God. Sin is transgression of the law. Law is God's rules God's expectation and There is judgment for lawlessness or breaking his rules.

And Either Christ is going to have paid your fine for you on the cross or You will spend eternity in the eternal destruction paying that eternal worthy fine. And we desire that you come to Christ be forgiven.

And Scripture commands us to repent of our sins put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and what he don't cross his death burial and resurrection. And he is now ascended to heaven where he sits at the right hand of the Father place of authority.

And He has called us to be his ambassadors to go preach this gospel. That you would come to him in repentance of faith. So we would encourage you to do that. Dan, would you mind to pray for us as we close?

Dear Lord, we thank you for the opportunity. We have talked about your work and pray that you would have your spirit guide us as We look over these things again and again that we would correct our mistakes We would understand you more fully and that you would truly be honored and glorified.

Pray that you would give us blessings and all that we do and Continue to be the great God that you are Christ. Let me pray. Amen. Amen. Oh, no my apologies.

I did not mean to hit that. That was. Do you see that Dan. No, I hit it. While you were praying this was. This was a request by somebody on the podcast. On the laborers podcast.

It's true though.

Yeah.

What's the what's the first one back after a while without having a glitch. The first one back? Yeah. After no, we've been we've been off for almost two months. So what's what's the first one back. Without having one glitch we'll have one good.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I accidentally had a bump there. But I hope you enjoy the comic relief. Enjoy that picture again if you watch both podcasts. But as always we want you to remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Christ go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.

We hope to see you real soon.

You.