TIL- Hebrews 2:4; 5-8

Oh, welcome to the truth and love podcast.

I am grateful to have Dan, the Presbyterian back with me.

How are you doing, Dan? Much better than I have been. How are you doing? I'm doing well.

I'm so thankful that you're doing better than you have been. And you're back. We're back together and we can start doing podcast again because I missed it.

I miss discussing God's word with you and being able to share it with other people. And so I'm thankful that everything is going much better.

How was how was your new one? And how are your other children? Oh, good.

Everybody's doing great. And the wives. Yeah, they're all doing great. All of them baptized, you know.

Even better. All of them doing great. All of them covenant children. And I think your wife is contemplating her own podcast.

Is that correct? Yeah, she's rolling it around, rolling the idea around in her head. She's got some good ideas.

The thing is trying to find time to do it all. So we'll see. I'll be excited to see what she comes up with.

Me, too. I'm excited about it, too. And so we want to encourage her. So pray for Dan and I pray for the

Labor's podcast and all the guys that participate. Pray for Becky as she she works through this and she fulfills that passion to be able to get out

God's word herself. So I'm thankful and I'm grateful and excited. What all God's doing in all of us.

So this is this is fun. This is fun. So we're going to jump back into Hebrews. That's OK with you, brother.

That's fine with me. I enjoy Hebrews. And I wanted to go back a few verses.

I know we've already covered it, but the the topic of. Cessation ism and continuation ism keeps coming back up, which is which is good because there are some doctrines like credo and pedo baptism that we as a greater church is a universal church.

We've not nailed down to a foundational.

How would you say it? A doctrine that we that's across the board. We pretty much there's pretty much agreement on.

Well, I mean, most of us have, but you Baptists are lagging behind a little bit. Sorry, I had to.

But yeah, yeah, I get what you're saying. You know what you do? You fall in good company with with Catholics and Methodists and Lutheran.

So I'm looking at this compelling orthodox. There you go.

You know. Oh, but yeah. And that's true. That's true.

I guess we would be in the minority. But I get what you're saying, though. Yeah. Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Even in the in the mode of baptism, you have discussion. And so cessation of cessation ism, continuation ism is just another one of those doctrines that there's not a majority agreement on across the board.

And it's I think it's good that the conversation keeps coming up so we can we want to hear what

God has to say. And that sometimes that's difficult for us.

It's difficult for us to, you know, Scripture says the Holy Spirit is our teacher. You don't have need for another one, which is one of those difficult passages, because there's the there's the office or gifting of teacher.

But the Holy Spirit is our teacher. And there are certain doctrines that we believe are clear, and that's why

Dan and I as Baptists and Presbyterian can work together. So it's good that it keeps coming up because we would hear what

God has to say, soften our thickheads, our our sinful minds and help us to learn.

And we pray that in the name of Jesus through the Holy Spirit, because we we want to know we want to please

God. And so it's not a matter of fist fighting one another, but learning to please

God. Would you agree with that? Yep. Awesome. So this will be one of the verses.

And I think I know where you fall on this. We've not had this conversation and we may have talked about it before and I may have forgotten.

But I would say that this is one of the verses that if you are a cessationist, which means that the how would you label them?

The apostolic gifts or certain gifts mentioned in the New Testament have have ceased with the apostolic age have ceased to have a normative regular function.

OK, because that's one of the and I don't know. The definition seems to be shifting for what a cessationist is.

But from from my understanding, maybe I'm maybe I'm just by the time the cessation is the one who believes that the main sign gifts, so to speak, you know, speaking in tongues, gifts of healing, stuff like that, cease to have a normative use with the closing of the canon.

Now, obviously, God can do whatever he wants to. If he wants to give somebody a gift of tongues today, you know.

Good on him, but not going to keep the Holy Spirit from doing whatever he wants to. He wants to heal somebody.

I've heard several instances of people being healed. One guy from from cancer, another one from they had no idea what was wrong with him, and they prayed and the doctor said it was a miracle.

I think of Jeff Durbin's son out or adopted son out in Arizona.

So he has spina bifida and doesn't. So, yeah, God can heal and cause people to speak in tongues or whatever.

But we believe that those those gifts have ceased to be normative for the church. So they're not an everyday occurrence.

They don't follow the offices, the offices of the church around. Right. So by that definition,

I really like that definition. So by that definition, as a cessationist. I would

I would hold on to that, I would cling to that definition. It it do you want to show your cards?

Is that where you fall? Oh, yeah. OK. OK. Well, we're I did

I did a podcast responding to a continuationist, and I did it with Big John. And of course, he's a continuationist.

Sure. And so with Dan and I, who are both cessationists, again, we're not trying to team up or team up on anybody that's a continuationist.

We're going to share our perspective. And I think those people who are cessationist would use this

Hebrews chapter two verse four passage in support of that. They would not.

Some point some would. Some would. Not all. You would. You would or wouldn't. I don't think

I would. But let's go. We'll talk about it as we get into it. And I'll explain why. OK. Do you do you want to start there or do you want to?

Do you want me to start with what I'm seeing? Or do you want to start a few verses above or how do you want to?

Let's let's start. Let's start back in the first couple of verses and gain some context. OK. We'll just do that real, real, real quick.

OK. You want to pop it up on the screen? Yes, sir. I'll have to.

There we go. Get rid of this. Pop this up. Boom. All right.

And in case anybody wonders why. His has slightly different words than mine.

I'm reading from the ESV paper version down here. Therefore, we must pay closer attention to what we have heard lest we drift away from it.

Now, everything in the previous point is talking about Christ being greater than the angels, Christ being

God. He's the one who upholds the universe by the the word of his power.

He made purifications for sins. He's a radiance of the glory of God, the exact imprint of his nature. He's proclaiming the deity of Christ and his salvation.

He provides for mankind. So we have to pay attention to that.

To what we have heard, so we don't drift away from it, we don't drift away from it by either neglecting who

Christ is in a lazy sense or in a sense where we follow after other things, you know, the

Israelites who went after the golden calf and said that they believed in God, but they were going to worship this golden calf like he was

God. It wasn't God. So moves on and says, for since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received just retribution, or since the angel's word was true, how shall we escape verse three if we neglect such a great salvation?

So what's being declared here in the first chapter, in the first few verses? And I would argue through the next little bit is the salvation is being brought to mankind through Jesus Christ.

That's what's being declared. So a second half of verse three says it was declared at first by the

Lord. One of and it was attested to us by those who heard.

Two and then verse four. I'm going to bring something out and then we'll back up and then we can move back through it.

I said, well, God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to as well.

So I see right there is a declaration of the salvation of Jesus Christ coming to mankind and it also fulfilling old the

Old Testament laws, requirements of establishing a matter on the on the basis of two or three witnesses.

Now, a lot of times that has to do with accusing someone of a crime.

But I also think it it. It works here. I mean, you remember

Jesus talking about talking to the Pharisees saying he made a claim.

You know, I bear witness. But I'm a son of God, and so does my father in heaven.

So he made sure that he had more than one witness for his claim. He's established on the basis of two or three witnesses.

So the two or three witnesses you see here are Jesus Christ. Speaking of this thing's mirrored, it's getting me is his salvation that he has called out to mankind.

He's attesting to salvation. He's bought and purchased with his own blood. We've heard about it through the apostles.

And then we're hearing about it also as as attested to by God. The father through signs, wonders, miracles and gifts of the

Holy Spirit distributed according to God's will. That's kind of the context of where we find this this passage.

So I don't know if you want to say something, then we kind of go over it. No, we'll go ahead.

And yeah, if you want to keep going and share your take on it. Sure. So in terms of cessation.

So what I see here is I see that one of the ways that God's going to authenticate the message of the gospel is going to be through signs, wonders, miracles and gifts of the

Holy Spirit. Now, I one of the reasons why I don't think we can use this as a passage in favor of cessation ism, because it really doesn't talk about those that.

That authentication stopping at any point. Now, with our definition of it being normative, maybe, but it just it doesn't bring up a timeline of stopping here in this text.

And why that's relevant is because you hear instances of people who have heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and been preached to it by and preach the gospel by men.

So they've got the witness of the gospel itself, the Jesus Christ and the witness of a man preaching to them.

And then especially through the Muslims and in those who are coming out of the

New Age community, which is interesting because they have their own idea of the cosmic Christ, which is nothing like Jesus Christ.

But they'll actually have visions or dreams that basically to them authenticate that message.

Now, I don't necessarily think that's normative. But it is something that God does.

So I don't necessarily think that we can use this particular passage to say that it has ceased being a normal function in the church.

But I don't think it it proves a stopping point one way or the other.

I think it's because I don't think that's what the passage is trying to talk about. I think the passage is trying to speak about that the

Christ is is superior. Christ has brought salvation and that particular.

Truth, the gospel of Jesus Christ has been authenticated through the three witnesses of Christ, the apostles and the signs and wonders brought by God through the power of the

Holy Spirit. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with with everything that you just said.

To the to the point where, you know, I had to think of this as well. And the timeline question, you know, where you where you're talking about, you don't see a timeline where it's it says that they ceased or they or they stopped being normative.

I also don't see it saying that it continues either. I just don't think it says it stays or it goes.

I just don't think you get that here. I just think it's talking about the authentication of the gospel. Right. Well, you you're welcome to correct me and we're welcome to disagree.

So when it comes to the timeline and. And I'm like you, he's he's not answering that direct question specifically, but I think in in addressing the topic that he is talking about, it does help answer another question, which is the one that we're talking about, or at least it touches on it.

So where I see the timeline, Dan, is when it said at the end of in the verse three after after it was at the first spoken through the

Lord. There's where the message started. It was confirmed to us.

By those who heard it. Mm hmm. And God also testifying with them.

And so. The the those that heard it and the them.

They do have a timeline because they didn't live forever. They did have a timeline. Well, I wouldn't say

Jesus didn't live forever. Well, except for Jesus and God, the Holy Spirit. Right.

The Trinity. I'm not including him. He he's he's the one who first brought the message.

I'm talking about those that heard it from the Lord. Sure. You know, those who are mortal apostles, disciples,

Mary Magdalene. All of them. Yes. So they had a timeline and they expired. Sure.

And so kind of ease. Well, we were gifted their words through the through the power of the

Holy Spirit, and it was preserved by the power of the Holy Spirit. Right. Right. But but I get what you're saying.

I'm sorry. I'm having too much fun with this. See him back after so long. You're trying to get me tied up.

I'm not trying. But it seems like the way it reads is that the signs and wonders, the miracles and the gifts of the

Holy Spirit were part of the testifying with the them.

Sure. And the them have a timeline and they finish their service here on Earth.

And so we do not see it. Like you said, there's not a there's not an indication here that they continued either.

There's just the indication that these signs and miracles. A company, the.

Now, now I will have to. Agree with you and. You know,

I was having a conversation with Pastor Pastor Jonathan about this as well, and he. He leans toward in this particular verse that it doesn't say that it's it's ceased with the apostles, that it it just doesn't say that, which.

It doesn't it doesn't. So, you know, I have to have to yield to that with you guys.

Now, I do think I do think that if if proved other other places that.

You could understand this passage in that way. I just don't think that it's provable from the text itself.

Yeah. Yeah. Like one of those things like this doesn't prove it. But if it's proved elsewhere, you can see it there.

Right. Not a main point, but you can see it off in the shadows on the side. Right. Yeah. And with a biblical biblical type theology, instead of systematic, you look at the the whole of the

New Testament, the pattern of the New Testament, the role of the Holy Spirit using these miracle signs, wonders and spiritual gifts.

It seems that they back off from being in use.

As the New Testament goes on, you don't see them as functioning.

They don't have as much function or. Use as they will.

Maybe. Mm hmm. You also have to think about what is the purpose of the New Testament and the purpose of the

New Testament is really to declare the the gospel of Jesus Christ and his glory and supremacy and all things.

Right. Well, so I don't necessarily know as if you would see a lot of I don't know as if you'd see a lot of authentication, no examples outside of the ones that we have.

Um, if it was going to continue, because it's just not the it's just not the purpose of the

New Testament. Right. Right. Yeah. So I guess I guess you and I can do another episode on this particular issue.

We don't have I don't I really want to pick your brain. With you being a cessationist like me,

I would like to pick your brain and say, OK, if this isn't the verse, where do you go to to hold that position?

But we can do that another time. I just wanted to address because this is a verse. I know Phil Johnson, he uses this text as as a proof for cessationism.

So maybe we can do another podcast just you and I talking about while we're cessationist.

Sure. Yeah, that would be good. Yeah, I would enjoy that. So the next two verses, it looks like so that we can keep up with our pattern of our new pattern of 30 minutes here.

But before we get into verses nine through 18 and hit a new section, I wanted to touch on this.

This sandwich here, you have verse five and verse eight as the bread and then you have the meat in the middle.

And kind of get your thoughts, because, of course, I'm being influenced to not influenced in necessarily changing my mind, but influenced to think.

I'll say that with the the podcast that we shall not name. We're still on that, but I'm being encouraged to be influenced to think.

And so that's why this these verses are coming back up. So you're in verse five and he says.

Yes, on the screen for he did not subject to angels the world to come concerning which we are speaking.

So. What's your understanding of the world to come? Are we talking about the millennial kingdom, this kingdom that Jesus has brought down, that he has started and he is now continuing?

Is that is that the world to come? Because we've talked about how angels, the

Lord had angels and princes. We you know, we we brought that up from Daniel influence or kind of have have some rule and authority over nations.

Enemies of Israel. And they come against Israel, these these angels or demons.

But in this new world. It doesn't seem like he has put the angels he's he's taken that authority away from them.

And there's a new authority in town. How are you?

How are you feeling about that? I, I don't. I don't know, but put it this way,

I do think it was when it's about the world to come here is talking about the world to come in the consummation.

And here's and here's why. This is the world to come, of which we are speaking.

He's already been talking about salvation. And I understand

New Testament salvation to be, you know, everything wrapped up in justification being declared right before God on the basis of Christ works and righteousness and not our own or sanctification.

We're we're drawn along and being made more and more like Christ, being drawn into further union with him.

I was going to throw out a word, but I'll take up the whole rest of the podcast on a glorification, which would be the final resurrection of our bodies and the glorification of us in body and soul and spirit.

All of all of the man being redeemed. So when he's talking about that salvation, it says of the angels aren't aren't the world isn't subject to the angels in the world to come.

It then goes on to describe. That we don't see everything put under man's feet as of yet.

But what we do see in the interim. Is Christ.

Who has come and suffered death so that by the grace of God, at the end of verse, what is it?

Nine, he might taste death for everyone. So what

I see here is it's pointing to the consummation all the while in the middle, showing how

Christ is the one who is fulfilling that that dominion mandate to put everything when he'd say, be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth, fill it.

And we botched that through sin and we instead destroyed the earth. And we still tried to fill it and take it over.

But he's now putting all of his enemies under his feet. The dominion mandate still going to be fulfilled.

This can be fulfilled through the power of Jesus Christ in this gospel. So it's showing a this is where we're at now, which is the part where Christ is putting everything under his feet.

And in the process, leading us towards the consummation, where a man being joined with God, which is we could go on with that.

That's a whole right. A whole thing. But I do think that part of our union with God is found in this passage, which would be called adoption, or if you look at second

Peter, second, Peter calls it being partakers of the divine nature. Which what the heck?

Well, what does that mean for takers of the divine nature? And I'll throw out this word.

This is a word that I've been I've been listening to a Lutheran guy and some some reformed folks.

And it's not really a big word and reformed circles. Most people think of the Eastern Orthodox when they think of it.

The word's theosis. And it means basically it's the idea of becoming more and more like God in a.

I say a real sense, because depending on who you talk to, it's a little bit different, the Orthodox think that we're actually being made ontologically, which means like in our very essence, nature and makeup are being made more more like Christ.

We're being made more godlike. The Lutherans would back off a little bit and say that it's dealing with our union with Christ and that we are being brought in as brothers to Christ and sons and daughters of of God.

And the reformed would be more along that camp. We would understand adoption to be the basically the same thing that we were adopted, made a part of God's family.

We have been made partakers of the divine nature in the sense that we're going to be sinless without the ability to sin, that we want to be you know, we won't be

God, but we will have taken some of his some of his attributes, so to speak, which, like I said, that's a big can of worms with three minutes left until 30.

Well, I mean, I was going to ask you, I mean, how how close does that tiptoe through the tulips towards Mormonism?

Well, here's the thing. Way back, and I forget who says it, I want to say it's either somebody with an

A and I could be wrong. It's one of the early fathers. They actually said this. They said Christ became man.

The man may become God. And what they meant by that wasn't what the

Mormons said. I actually have this in my in my notes, you know, Mormons right there. And they did not mean what the

Mormons meant when they said that. What they meant was that Christ became man. And if we follow the passage through.

Let me just jump ahead real quick to verse 11 says, for he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source, that is why he's not ashamed to call them brothers.

He is we've been linked, unionized, weird word with Christ in verse four, 14, since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, since we're flesh and blood.

And he himself likewise partook of the same things that through death, he might destroy the one who has power of death, that is the devil.

So he destroyed death and the devil. He in 15 delivered those who were enslaved to the fear of death.

Verse 17, he made propitiation for sins. Verse 18, he was a helper to sinners.

Verse 17, though, says, therefore, he had to be made like his brothers in every respect so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God to make propitiations for the sins of the people.

So in Christ, taking on a human nature and dying in our place, he has sucked us up into the divine nature somewhat.

Somewhat, not the we're God, but the we're now be rightly called brothers of Christ, we're adopted into the family of God.

We're part of the as the next the next chapter talks about being built up into the house of God.

Do you think it would be more do you think it would help us to understand it better if we go back to how we try to understand being made in the image of God?

So we God has given us some of the communicable attributes where we can we can, you know, communicate, we can love, we can forgive, you know.

So we have those attributes. So is that kind of what you're talking about when as we become more like Christ, those attributes that we have that he has given us will be perfected?

Sure. Yeah, especially because when you think of Adam and Eve in the garden before they sinned, they had the choice they could sin or not sin.

When when what I think part of being made partakers of the divine nature is going to mean is that we're going to lose that ability to sin or not sin.

Well, now to sin. But if we have the ability to please God one day, the ability to sin will not no longer be ours.

So when he said, don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

And if we hadn't, we would have remained in a sinless state. I think that we're going to be made, excuse me, where we won't be able to sin in the future.

That's something that we didn't have in the garden, but that we could have had, you know, not that we are.

Divine, not that we become eternal, not become gods in the sense that we are now of the same substance.

No, it doesn't become, you know, from father, son and Holy Spirit to an infinity where it's father, son,

Holy Spirit and all the saints. We don't rise to that level. Right. But we're made more like God and that we can't sin.

We will be good, loving, kind. And perfectly so with an inability to do otherwise.

Right. Well, as we wrap up, the sin that we hated has been ripped from us and we no longer, no longer have it.

Nice. Awesome. That will be what a glorious day.

Reminds me of that song. What a day. What a glorious day. That will be as we wrap up.

Let me ask you about where I started with the first five and verse eight. You kind of brought salvation.

You looked at it in a holistic sense with justification, sanctification, sanctification and glorification.

Is it is it possible? Because I kind of described how I was seeing verse five.

Is it possible that I'm seeing this in a holistic sense as well? Where obviously,

I mean, he says he. He did not subject to angels. He he's taking away the authority that they once had in this world to come.

So could it begin with the kingdom and include the consummation?

You know, in a holistic sense, because. Jesus now,

I mean, Matthew 28, he now has authority in heaven and on earth over all things.

So it would fit there that he he's the one who has authority over everything in heaven or earth.

He's taking it away from angels. So. Would this.

Taking away their authority begin with the kingdom include the consummation and therefore on into eternity?

Yeah, I think it's definitely a process that leads to an event, so to speak.

So so we're we're we're not seeing everything in subjection to him now, but we are seeing

Christ. Who has put an end to sin, death and the devil, and we're going to continue to see everything, as it says in verse eight, putting everything in subjection under his feet until that's completed and and done with.

So it's it's I think the world to come of which he's speaking of verse five is the consummation.

But verse six, seven, eight, and really all the way through the end of the chapter is talking about, you know, how we get there.

You know, how are we going to, you know, find and finalize it? We're going to finalize it because Christ is going to do it, not because we're going to do it.

Right. Well, I appreciate that tease because that's going to that's what we're going to do next in our next episode is look at versus verses nine through 18 of chapter two in Hebrews.

And our desire is for everyone who hears, listens and also will share that desire.

If you are a believer in Christ, if you have about the knee, he's made you born again, that you would have the same desire that we have.

That those who have not been born again, they have not bowed the knee to Christ, that they would, because at some point is beyond the point of no return.

At some point, every knee will bow. Every time we'll confess whether you did here on Earth or not.

And for those who have not. Will will face an eternity of eternal destruction in a place called hell.

And we we do not desire that for for anyone.

We don't know God's elect. We love the gospel. We're thankful and grateful for the gospel in our lives because God has rescued us through his son,

Jesus. And we want to offer that rescuing for you as well. If you do not know him and encourage you, if you do to share the gospel of somebody else that as we talk about Adam and Eve already, that sin entered in this world, come into the mix and then sin ruined it for for all of us.

We're we're all sinners. We can't do anything but sin apart from Christ.

And there's judgment for sin, for disobeying God. Sin is transgression of the law.

Law is God's rules, God's expectation. And there is judgment.

For lawlessness or breaking his rules. And either

Christ is going to have paid your fine for you on the cross or you will spend eternity in the eternal destruction, paying that eternal worthy fine.

And we desire that you come to Christ, be forgiven. And scripture commands us to repent of our sins, put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross, his death, burial and resurrection.

And he is now ascended to heaven, where he sits at the right hand of the father, place of authority. And he has called us to be his ambassadors, to go preach this gospel, that you would come to him in repentance and faith.

So we would encourage you to do that. Dan, would you mind to pray for us as we close? Dear Lord, we thank you for the opportunity we have to talk about your word and pray that you would have your spirit guide us as we look over these things again and again, that we would correct our mistakes, we would understand you more fully and that you would truly be honored and glorified.

We pray that you would give us blessings in all that we do and continue to be the great

God that you are. Christ, let me pray. Amen. Amen. Oh, no. My apologies.

I did not mean to hit that. That was. Did you see that,

Dan? No, I hit it while you were praying. This was this was a request by somebody on the podcast on the

Labor's podcast. It's true, though. It's true.

Yeah. Well, what's the what's the first one back after a while without having a glitch? The first one back?

Yeah. After, you know, we've been we've been off for almost two months. But I have. So what's what's the first one back without having one glitch?

We'll have one. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Accidentally had a bump there. But I hope you enjoy the comic relief.

Enjoy that picture again if you watch both podcasts. But as always, we want you to remember that Jesus is king.

Go live in the victory of Christ. Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.

We hope to see you real soon. Oh, let me do that, taking a chance.

Telling me to dance, taking a chance. Telling me to dance, taking a chance.