September 16, 2016 Show with Jamin Hubner on “Mishandling the Word of Truth: A Critique of Hyperdispensationalism”

Introduction to Hyper-Dispensationalism and the Book Under Discussion

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 16th day of September 2016.

And some of you are listening and scratching your heads, wondering why there's no theme music behind me right now. That's because we have some kind of an unforeseen technical problem occurring right now.

And hopefully, it will be rectified during this program so we can air commercials. But if not, we will just press forward nonetheless. And we will hopefully gain a lot of insight from today's interview.

Today, we have returning to the program Dr. Jamin Huebner, founding chair of Christian Studies at John Witherspoon College. And he is going to be discussing something outside of what one might expect.

Those of our listeners who know Dr. Huebner may immediately connect him with Christian libertarianism and political theory and so on. But today, we are discussing a theological matter. We are discussing a book he has written titled Mishandling the Word of Truth, a critique of hyper-dispensationalism.

And I'd like all of you who have questions on this issue to contact us with a question at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA.

You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. Perhaps you're bringing up a question where you have a disagreement with your own church or some other issue that would compel you to remain anonymous.

We will honor that request if you just tell us to do that. And that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Jamin Huebner.

Well, thank you, Chris, for inviting me for a second time. I guess that means I didn't fail the first time. So I look forward to it.

Yeah, I do too. And let's get some terms clarified here. First of all, I want my listeners know, especially my dispensationalist listeners to know that I'm not tagging a hyper description onto your beliefs or where you're not really putting your views of theology and eschatology under the limelight necessarily, although it will come up.

This is a discussion on hyper dispensationalism. And most dispensationalists that I know, love, and respect, like John MacArthur and even one of the sponsors of this very program, Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church, who shares my Calvinism, but we disagree over his dispensationalism.

But even folks like that would normally find very problematic those who espouse hyper dispensationalism. And we're going to have some definitions here at the outset. So before we go into what hyper dispensationalism is, obviously we should know what is dispensationalism.

Yeah, and saying what you just said, it's other people. When I teach in the classroom, that's what I have to do. Muslims and others believe. It may not be up to, yeah, we kind of, what this is.

Yeah, because they are different agreements, even amongst dispensationalists.

Most definitely. And, you know, there's Darbyists. John Nelson Darby was a laid out of different epochs. And that was not unique in Redemptive. In the 50s, applications, especially with the interpretation of the two World Wars, particularly group, well enough, we don't see the distinctiveness of the thing.

Meaning those that, meaning those outside of their camp don't understand the Apostle Paul.

And I mean, but they became sort of sectarian, in even higher education. So anyway, yeah, the dispensationalism is waterbath, misused, salvation, it's a real distinctive epoch and mark. They have to, you know, conform and absorb the.

Right, well, where they are actually, though, wouldn't you agree, misunderstanding the theology of Apostle Paul, because they pit it against Jesus and Peter, which actually that, there never was a wall between them.

Yeah, I do think it is a misunderstanding. And I'm not, however, a Christian that refused to talk about Allene theology, or in writings, I do think it can be unified, a legitimate way of talking about those distinctive things.

It's just that it's almost intangible.

The Claim That Paul Preached a Different Gospel

Right, well, this would be where you have Jesus Christ, during his earthly ministry, proclaiming one gospel, just for a handful of years, really. And then you have Paul arriving on the scene, you know, not long after the death of Stephen, coming to faith in Christ, after being a fire-breathing Pharisee, wanting to kill Christians, he comes to faith.

And then all of a sudden, after just that comparative handful of years of Jesus on this earth, and his earliest disciples, all of a sudden, Paul comes up with a new gospel that we're supposed to follow?

It seems to me unbelievable that people would have this view.

For a whole book, showing it doesn't work.

Right.

But we see it in these things. And so, it becomes really complicated, and very, really, the problem's in length. And, you know, I was just thinking in re-reading, or at least revise it, in light of, I think if you could, it would be that, I support their theology.

I think a lot of, we learn these things in high school, like, what is a metaphor? Interpretation, different things. They tend to get kind of covered. And talking about what a Christian community of believers, and the New Covenant community.

We're talking about a Jewish environment, in the first century. And so, they work within a paradigm. In the early church, a body of Christ. So, use the old term.

Now, you mentioned earlier that one of the hallmarks of hyper-dispensationalism is that they do not believe in the perpetuity of baptism, of any kind of water baptism, that is. And would that also coincide with the Lord's Supper?

Because I thought that I had met some hyper-dispensationalists that did not practice the Lord's Supper.

I guess I didn't focus too much on that, and I'm not sure why. Yeah, that's part of the reason I was aware of that.

Okay. We do have a question already from Ada, Ohio, David, who says, can you make a distinction between hyper and enthusiastic? Because some people may think that a hyper-dispensationalist is somebody who's just really excited about it, or drinks a lot of coffee, or what have you.

But, and people obviously make the accusation about a Calvinist, a historic Calvinist, like I would consider myself in that category, because I believe that the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith is an accurate, although not inerrant, summary of biblical truth.

And I also have a great high regard for the other historic creeds of the Reformed faith, like the Westminster Confession, like the Savoy Declaration, like the 39 Articles of Religion from the Anglican Church.

Like the Three Forms of Unity from the Dutch Reformed Church. But there are people who despise those teachings, who would call a person a hyper-Calvinist, even though he really is faithfully following the theology that had been handed down for the centuries.

Obviously there have been differences amongst these great men of God from the past and present. But they call us hyper-Calvinists just because we believe in Calvinism and want to talk about it. Because we actually bring it up in sermons and actually discuss unconditional election and particular redemption and other things that drive them crazy, and so therefore they tag a hyper onto us.

But hyper-dispensationalism, you're not just saying somebody who's really excited about it, correct?

I mean, I'm way too excited about it. But yeah, that's not what I'm saying. Yeah, I remember. It's not just...

And, oh, by the way, David, you are actually getting a free copy of our guest's book, Mishandling the Word of Truth, A Critique of Hyper-Dispensationalism. So thanks for sending in your question. And our email address for anybody else who has a question is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And we look forward to hearing from more of you. Isn't one of the things that the hyper-dispensationalists teach, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not an expert on it, like I haven't studied it as thoroughly as you have, I've just experienced people, not only in person who I've met, but even radio preachers who would be in this category.

One of the things they seem to be doing is actually teaching that Jesus, and the Old Testament saints, were declaring that works were an essential, meritorious factor in achieving salvation, and that Paul was the first one on the scene to revolutionize and change and transform the gospel where it became a salvation by grace alone, through faith alone.

Is that an accurate description?

I think it actually, yeah, they basically, yeah, I mean, I think you summarized it well. My way of sort of deconstructing that framework in human relationship. Three, I mean, this is sort of a research thing where, you know, a lot of times, it's just the views of a couple people, or it's just, well, what really came out of that, and one was Hebrew scriptures, and then another is,.

Well, let me repeat, while you're looking, I'm gonna repeat our email address, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. For anybody who has a question about hyperdispensationalism, which is our topic today, and actually the book that our guest, Dr. Jamin Hubner, wrote on this theme, because he's written other books, but this book is titled Mishandling the Word of Truth, a Critique of Hyperdispensationalism.

Third element, it's amazing that I had to make the belief, trust, you know, grace, it's down to one or two.

Hyper-Grace and Hyper-Dispensationalism

Now, there is a movement that has been nicknamed hypergrace. This is a movement that has been seriously critiqued and warned against by not only Calvinists, but Arminians alike, even Michael Brown, a very well-known charismatic Arminian, Messianic Jewish TV and radio host who I actually know.

He's a wonderful brother in the Lord, although I have my serious disagreements with him on some points, on a number of points. And he has been highlighting his opposition to what is called the hypergrace movement, which is basically saying that to insist that somebody repent before they can have any peace that they are truly born from above, born again, that is adding works to salvation, that is a false gospel, that is almost akin, if not equivalent, to Judaizing without the Jewish baggage, I guess, and that this is a heresy.

So they think that people are coming to genuine faith in Christ because they have recited a prayer that the minister or the Christian approaching them has told them to recite, they've recited it, and sometimes it will be added, if you believe this in your heart, you are saved, and no matter what this person lives like, an overtly rebellious, wicked life that never is marked by any repentance, it could be decades, this person will be deemed a Christian and a fellow heir of heaven just because of this professed faith that he, at one point, had a heartfelt belief in.

Was this, is that group bigger than this hyper-dispensationalist group?

Yeah, I think it's dedicated to my, it's loosely dispensationalist, although on some things, she's pretty insistent about and we argue about it, but the books, before I did the second edition of Michael Brown's book, which you just mentioned, and I did implement, worked some of it in to the second edition as appropriate, but it is a pretty different movement.

I mean, it is, I'm not discerning for different reasons, but.

Right, yeah, because unfortunately, broad evangelicalism is really rampant with the hyper-grace, but not necessarily the hyper-dispensationalist. That's a really narrow focus of aberrant teaching.

Yeah, and I think the, I think the methods are different. That wasn't with maybe this mass mega-hyper-group people. Think about Christians and what they gain about Americans from TBN and, but anyway, yeah, they are pretty geographically.

In fact, let's pick up on the geographic proponent or component, I should say, after we return from a station break, and I think that our computers are working now. God did want these commercials to air, so he smiled upon me and knows that I need the money.

And he wants my sponsors and advertisers to benefit from their sacrifice by being supportive of this program. So if you want to join us on the air, we do have a couple of people still waiting for their questions to be asked, but if you'd like to join them, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Jamin Hubner and they're discussing.

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Welcome back and I just love that new Todd Friel ad that he did for us about the G3 conference. That just, I just love that. The, by the way, our guest today, for those of you who just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is Dr. Jamin Hubner, founding chair of Christian Studies at John Witherspoon College.

In fact, I just saw yesterday a Westminster Theological Seminary edition of their TV program on the National Religious Broadcasters Network where they, in part, paid tribute to John Witherspoon and other Christians of American history.

But our guest is the founding chair of Christian Studies at John Witherspoon College and we are discussing his book, Mishandling the Word of Truth, a Critique of Hyper-Dispensationalism. And I'm assuming the title is some kind of a play on rightly dividing the word of truth?

Right, yeah, and that's a sensationalist and it is oddly used. I'm actually getting feedback pretty strongly.

Can you hear yourself now? Hold on a second, let me do some work here to try to rectify that situation. Well, keep speaking because I have a feeling if I mute myself, it may help matters.

The whole thing is.

Jamin Hubner's Theological Background

Now, I think it would be a good idea also, we should have perhaps done this from the outset, but perhaps as much as you can in summary form, give an explanation of your own personal theological background or your theological beliefs.

I know that there are many Christians who don't like to use labels. I find labels, although they can be abused and sometimes make things confusing, I think they actually help clarify matters more than they cloudy them.

But if you could give us a description of where you're coming from theologically.

I mean, I'm broadly and a more prominent, as I said on your show.

Right, I didn't even know that Abraham Kuyper and Bavinck would be categorized as neo-Calvinists.

Well, I don't think they should be, I think.

Or just compromising to modern culture.

Some would see it that way. I don't quite see it that way, but.

But okay.

Anyway, I grew up in Bavaria.

Now, am I misremembering something, if that is even a word? Was this your doctoral dissertation, this book?

Dissertation? No, it is not.

Oh, okay. For some reason, I had that in the back of my head. I don't know why that popped in there. I was probably reading something else that involved your doctoral dissertation, but that's okay. And as far as going back to the book we are discussing, mishandling the word of truth, a critique of hyper-dispensationalism, we do have a question all the way from Kinross, Scotland for you.

We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, who asks, do hyper-dispensationalists still use 2 Timothy 2 .15, rightly dividing the word of truth, as a justification for their approach to their way of viewing scripture?

Or do they, like Charles Ryrie, consider the verse to mean correctly handling the word of God in both analysis and presentation, which presumably allows for a much wider application? Do they now view that particular verse as not justifying their dividing into dispensations, or do they cling onto that narrow, false meaning?

Well, I think you'll probably have an analogy, and it was even endorsed, at least it was, or however faint, and others are, it's not gonna make as many calls. Conveniently used as a justification, as a license for their particular theology.

In other cases, it means more.

Now, historically, was there a father of hyper-dispensationalism? I'm assuming, since dispensationalism itself has only been around since the 19th century, this must be a 20th century phenomena.

20th century phenomena. It's sustained to a, I think it's free. It's kind of a foundation to their own little ministries, and they're, they could, they might be the most popular in terms of, but they're not actually associated with society, the organization that is the hyper-dispensationalist organization in Chicago.

Now, when was Stam living, writing, and preaching?

I think he died, the grace Bible.

Okay. By the way, has that echo gone away? Because I never heard the echo, but do you still hear the echo?

Uh, you know, it was gone for a while, and now it's back.

Okay. And going back to something that we brought up before, I just wanted to clarify it, though. Although all, although not all of the hyper-grace movement are hyper-dispensationalists, are all hyper-dispensationalists involved in a form of hyper-grace that rejects repentance as necessary for salvation?

I'm hesitant in drawing a line. I don't think there's going to be some people within the, they're not going to.

John MacArthur, Repentance, and the Boundaries of Orthodoxy

Yeah. We do have a listener from Sharpsburg, Georgia, Lou, who says, would you say any of John MacArthur's dispensational beliefs would fall outside the pale of orthodoxy? That's a phrase that Hank Hanegraaff always used to use.

I guess my answer to that could mean the East-West, could they be, and could mean Christianity. It could mean, you know, just what can be used as an, you know, some different beliefs and ideas, and, you know, when do you get to the point where you say orthodoxy is, and to be saved, and understand that orthodoxy, and even giving attention to most of them, a lot growing up as a teenager.

He is one of my modern-day heroes, even though I'm not a dispensationalist, and I've had him on the program, and he very rarely, if you take into consideration the dominant topics, or area of discussion, or things from the scriptures that he exegetes, the dispensational aspect is a tiny minority.

I mean, he does at times really hammer on it, but you could listen to John MacArthur, you could listen to the Grace to You radio or TV program, and you could listen to it for a year and never hear a dispensationalist distinctive come up.

And he also has become, and something I'm happy about in particular, a five-point Calvinist. He became one, I believe in the, a lot of people are surprised by this, but he didn't become a five-point Calvinist until the late 90s, early 2000s, somewhere in that neighborhood of time, and that was confirmed to me by Phil Johnson, who actually is the editor for most of John MacArthur's books.

There's a person who has read every one of John MacArthur's books, Phil Johnson. But anyway, and also, it obviously should be made clear that John MacArthur is in no way, shape, or form a hyper-dispensationalist.

In fact, his views are so strong on repentance, having written about it in at least three books as a focused topic, the Gospel According to Jesus being the most famous, he would be lambasted and accused of heresy by many in that hyper-dispensationalist group.

The title has missed in years, but.

Yeah, by the way, Lou from Sharpsburg, Georgia, you're getting a free copy of Justin Huebner's book that we are addressing today, Misunderstanding, oh, I'm sorry, Mishandling. I misunderstood the title.

Mishandling the Word of Truth, a Critique of Hyper-Dispensationalism. So we thank you. Keep spreading the word in Georgia about our program, and I hope that you come to the G3 Conference in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, where I will be manning an exhibitor's booth.

So thanks for writing. This issue, people may be thinking that we are straining out gnats and swallowing camels or counting the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin. There are a lot of people, whenever you get into a deep theological discussion about something, they think that you're wasting time, that we should be all just holding hands with everybody who believes in Jesus and fighting the evils of the world that we would all be in harmony and in opposition to.

But this is very serious when you're talking about someone who is giving a false hope of salvation to somebody who is bearing no fruit. Isn't that a very serious and deadly issue?

He warns his readers not to listen to the gospel of anyone but Paul. Anytime, you know, don't listen to Jesus, or you know, another issue is what we've heard. It's not just looking at people you've hurt and saying, I'm sorry, it's like being a creator.

It's a crisis you might, you're sort of disgusted with yourself. You really wanna be a different person. And to me, when it comes fighting the evil of the world, that is unifying and finding, yeah.

Yeah, what I meant by holding hands with those who deny Christ and for the cause of some higher purpose, which, and when I say higher purpose, I'm not saying that I view it as a higher purpose. There are many Christians or professing Christians who view cleaning up America as a higher purpose than the gospel, about the gospel that Jesus Christ proclaimed, about the person and work of Jesus Christ, about who the Godhead is and so on.

These things are looked upon as trivial in compared to, now, when I'm gonna go through a list, these are things that I am passionate about, but they think that opposing same-sex marriage and opposing abortion and opposing a lot of other things that have become, that our nation has become overrun by, they think that that is, opposing those things is more important than the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And that's where I have to say, no, you're absolutely wrong. And it is ironic to me that this has really occurred within churches that historically did believe that there is a serious difference between the gospel of Rome and the Reformation and other things, and they did draw a line of demarcation.

But we are gonna be going to another station break, and if you'd like to join us on the air, we've got Dr. Huebner on for another hour. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. And don't go away, we're gonna be right back after these messages with more of Dr. Jamin Huebner.

Dispensationalism, Eschatology, and Modern Historical Influences

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Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia. And here's my friend Dr. James White to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. I hope you join me at the G3 Conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Bodie Balcombe, Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.

For more details, go to g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.

Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours. He's already been on for an hour and has an hour to go.

Dr. Jamin Hubner, who is founding chair of Christian Studies at John Witherspoon College. And he has written a book, among others, that is titled, Mishandling the Word of Truth, a Critique of Hyper-Dispensationalism.

And I really want to read a couple of the, a few of the glowing endorsements for this book. This book does not merely address a mishandling of the word of truth. It also serves as a sound defense for the need to embrace the unity of the scriptures as a whole.

The book explains the unfolding of the gospel of Jesus Christ as one gospel for all ages. Jamin is particularly gifted in his ability to present difficult matters and distinctions in an understandable and very readable form.

Mishandling the word of truth is a beneficial read. And that is Art Sardiorius. I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing his name. He is pastor of Black Hills Community Church. And then we have, in this very helpful, fair, and ironic book, Jamin Huebner does the evangelical church a service by providing a devastating biblical and theological critique of the movement he labels hyper-dispensationalism.

For those not familiar with this theology, a theology which unfortunately continues to exert influence within the church, Huebner not only lays out the historical background of the view, he particularly and patiently evaluates its biblical argument with accuracy and precision.

In doing so, Huebner also points the direction toward a more faithful and biblical reading of scripture. I highly commend this work. Dr. Stephen Willem, PhD, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, professor of Christian theology, Southwestern, I'm sorry, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and co-author of Kingdom Through Covenant.

And finally, Jamin's work is a must-read for the church today. He not only gives us a history of the movement and its theology, but a very helpful critique that is based on scripture. His research into this movement is evident throughout its pages, and his footnotes alone are well worth the price of the book.

I highly recommend Mishandling the Word of Truth. Now obviously, that's a funny way of phrasing it, isn't it? I highly recommend Mishandling the Word of Truth. But he obviously didn't mean it that way.

I highly recommend Mishandling the Word of Truth to pastors, seminary students, elders, and lay leaders, and anyone who loves God's word. Pablo Herrera, who is a ruling elder at Spring Valley Presbyterian Church, and those are some pretty powerful endorsements.

And again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com if you'd like to join us on the air with some questions for our guests. And one thing is certain, I definitely need to get a pair of prescription glasses and stop relying on these five-in-dime things that I've got here.

Israel, the Modern State, and Christian Zionism

But we have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who asks, is the problem with dispensational eschatology that it looks to the fallen world around us rather than scripture? He's obviously addressing a more broader group of people, not just the hyper-dispensationalists.

And I don't know if he's referring to the fact that many dispensationalists will isogeet current events from TV, internet, newspaper, and magazines, and radio. They will isogeet things that are going on around them into the scripture and interpret it that way.

But I'm not 100 sure that's what he means. But do you want to answer that if you could?

I think what's behind the question is, if we could rephrase it, is the problem with hyper-dispensationalism is that they're seeking out biblical revelation. And this really goes back, I think, to dispensationalism generically, and the impact of modernism on theology in the early 1900s and late 1800s, and how that really gave dispensationalism a boost.

I don't think hyper-dispensationalism would have ever really came into being or survived, had it not, we'd say, classic discipline education. You have Darwinism, you have Freudian psychology, you have Marxism, you know, a whole series.

And then World War said, it is an escapist theology. At least it was that way. I don't want to speak for dispensationalists today that at least traditional dispensationalism was highly influenced by the events.

And theology is throughout history. This isn't a criticism of singling out dispensationalists and making fun of them, although I go too much throughout. It is, I think there is a kind of cynical current event, and that's why dispensationalism became so interesting.

Zionism is down to people sending you and saying, look, you got to take out your checkbook and write a check and give the country Israel, ordinary atheistic community. And dispensationalism and hyper-obligation support the modern Jewish state today.

And it's just one of a number of different issues where you find contemporary engagement, like the 1948 war and the establishment of the state of Israel, like modernism and all the things that it brought to the table.

All of that shape, the tone, and I think to some degree the content of this theology, and that continues. And today that we look at and say, see, the world is going to hell in a hand. So we need to just, you know, the metaphor, I think it was Moody.

And so that's like the approaching it, say yes to the God's world. And it's working in all kinds of ways that we barely recognize. Faces, it's all part of God's plan. It's an age that shaped theology as part of that.

You know, it's like we get different creeds, confessions, we learn different things because of different issues. You know, the slavery issue is not an issue in the first century, you know? Even though one out of five people in the, it was dominant, very lightly addressed by the church, but then it came to a head eventually.