March 24, 2021 Show with Virgil Walker on “How Woke is the Southern Baptist Church?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 24th day of March 2021.

Virgil Walker on Just Thinking Podcast and G3 Ministries

And I am absolutely thrilled to have back on the program someone who I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting and interviewing in the past. Most of my listeners will recall his name as being one of two hosts of the Just Thinking podcast that he co-hosts with Darrell Bernard Harrison.

And he is also the newly appointed executive director of operations at G3 Ministries. And today we are going to be addressing the very controversial theme, how woke is the Southern Baptist Convention?

How a denomination which was purged of liberalism returned to poison itself from the very same well? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Virgil Walker.

Well, it is my honor to be with you, Chris, and happy to be here with you. Half of the dynamic duo, I don't mind saying this. Half of the dynamic duo. It's always fun doing these kinds of interviews with my thinking but I'm having to figure out operations for G3 Ministries, how to kind of navigate some spaces.

Great. Well, why don't you, for those few listeners, I'm sure, listening to this program who are unfamiliar with Just Thinking, I'm sure the vast majority of my listeners are very familiar with it, but you never know how many are listening who are even new to the Christian faith, as I do have on occasion.

They email me those who are new Christians and also those who are not Christians at all. We have people from all kinds of religions and atheists and so on who listen. Tell our listeners about the Just Thinking podcast.

Yeah, the Just Thinking podcast is the brainchild. Dwayne Atkinson is the executive producer for Just Thinking. He's over the bar network, a network of podcasts, Christian podcasts and the like. And the Just Thinking for myself is the blog.

Daryl has been writing for eight years, a decade on his own about issues relating to culture, politics, economics, and the like, and all together through a chance meeting. And Dwayne had called me after a guy, and you have a lot in common, and I know you've got some radio experience.

He's a writer. Maybe you guys could get together and make things work. And that long story short, after some cajoling on the part of myself and Dwayne, because Daryl just was not really thinking that he had the chops for doing speaking, he really has, and sure enough, as we began to work together, the ability to speak on the fly and to really articulate issues of the culture with the same dynamic kind of force that he has in writing, actually began to play itself out in our podcast.

A number of different benefits have kind of begun to be seen as a go-to for some of those issues, kind of heated up in the continue to be. You can find it at justthinking .me. You can download it anywhere you download your Apple.

This information from you can get that. I'll say this lastly, two things. One is that it is a long-form podcast. Listen to something in 20 minutes and be done. This is not that. We can go hours.

Wow.

It is a, yes, we want it to be a particular subject. So if you wanted to hear, you have it all there in one podcast episode. Now, what most people do with that, Chris, is they download it as time allows, taking notes and making their assessments of what happened during certain weeks.

Number one Christian podcast in the country.

I happen to know Dwayne very well, personally, and have interviewed him. I have received from Dwayne Atkinson the honorary title of the OG of Christian broadcast. And I have to be honest. I had to ask someone very familiar with hip-hop culture what that meant.

That's good. You know what? He's spot on with that. If you think about it, you've been a kindness to provide us the kindness that you show us. I know it's been that you and I were trying.

And let me give our friend Dwayne a further plug by giving our listeners his website, thebarpodcast .com, thebarpodcast .com, and that has nothing to do with taverns as much as many in our Reformed audience seem to love that.

That's right.

And it does not stand for, as many might erroneously jump to the conclusion, since Dwayne is a black brother, it does not stand for black and Reformed. It stands for biblical and Reformed. And that's thebarpodcast .com.

And by the way, I thought I'd throw in there, even though it makes me feel very awkward doing so, I hate describing people according to the melanin content of their skin. But my guest, Virgil Walker, is a black brother in Christ.

And I mention that because there are sensitive issues we are discussing that some people wrongly jump to the conclusion, I believe, that it is wrong and even racist for non-black individuals to even address these issues, especially on their own.

And of course, even when somebody who is a biblically faithful black Christian addresses them, they are still being anti-black racists themselves, even though they are black. So you can never really win with the advocates of the woke movement.

Absolutely.

But this subject that we are addressing, I am hoping that I don't lose friendships over it, because I have many friends in the Southern Baptist Convention who have even been guests on this program. But I have to say clearly that most of my closest friends and favorite guests who are still pastors or leaders in some fashion in the Southern Baptist Convention are the first to admit and boldly oppose publicly the truths that we are addressing today.

Absolutely.

So let me repeat the theme. It's how woke is the Southern Baptist Convention, how a denomination which was purged of liberalism returned to poison itself from the very same well. And before we go into that theme, let us begin by addressing G3 Ministries and your new post as Executive Director of Operations and the upcoming conference this fall, G3 Conference 2021.

G3 Conference 2021 and the Christology Theme

Yeah, I'm excited about it, as you can imagine. G3 for me has been something that, you know, since 2017, my first actual attendance in person is something that I'd always look forward to. It's the largest conference of its kind.

It had more speakers from different areas of Reformed Biblical theology in one place than any other. One of the things that I so enjoyed is the cross-section of speakers from all over who I've respected were at one place.

I couldn't think of one place where you can go and find this many thought leaders, pastors, and the like. And so I think not only does it provide that kind of an experience from a theological standpoint, so it scratches that itch, the other piece of it is, and I know you've experienced this as well, having been there, is the family atmosphere.

That is G3. Unlike other conferences where you go and, you know, you're thinking, I've got to be a pastor to be there, I've got to be, you know, at least an associate pastor of some type, or maybe an elder.

And so what you often see in the context of a G3 are families. Some folks will schedule their family vacation around this time and really experience the full breadth and depth. We'll talk about the nature of Christ, the office of Christ.

We'll talk about every aspect that is in great need of a Savior and is looking for answers from every gospel. I think this is an incredibly important time of Christology as it's focused.

And let me list some of the speakers, and I will only do this once because if I did it more than once, we would run out of time and have no time for an interview. There are so many speakers. Stephen Lawson, Votie Balcombe, Paul Washer, John MacArthur, Josh Bice, who is the founder of the G3 Conference, Anthony Methenia, who is Paul Washer's pastor, one of my favorite preachers on the planet Earth, Hensworth Jonas.

If you do not know Hensworth Jonas, you've never heard him. You've got to take a plane, train, or automobile to anywhere he is preaching because he is extraordinary. I had the privilege of hearing him not only preach at the church where I'm a member, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, but also at Banner of Truth conferences, and he is just phenomenal.

Mike Riccardi, who's been a guest on this program. Justin Peters, who's been a guest many times on this program. Joe Beeky, who's also been a guest many times on this program. Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry, Grace to You, who has actually been on my program more than any other guest.

In fact, let me take this time to have you mark on your calendars. Phil Johnson will be my guest again on Tuesday, April 6th, and Nathan Bucinitz, for the very first time, will be on the program on Thursday, April 1st.

And that has nothing to do with Nathan being a fool, being April Fool's Day. But I have been trying to interview Nathan for about three years, at least, on his book, Long Before Luther, and that will be our discussion.

My friend for nearly three decades, James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, is speaking, and he was my very first interview on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio ever, not only the first time we went on the air in 2005, but the first time we aired when I returned from a hiatus.

In 2015, after relocating to Pennsylvania, he was my first guest, and he's been my guest many times. And Dr. Conrad M. Bayway, who I have to say is my very favorite preacher on the planet Earth. In fact, I was in the church when Dr. M. Bayway was preaching for the very first time in the United States.

It was the church where I was a member, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, that had invited Dr. M. Bayway in 1995 to preach there for a three-day conference, and I was there. And we struck up a friendship then, and have been in regular contact ever since.

And he is returning to the program for an interview, and also is one of the speakers at the G3 conference, and the aforementioned Daryl Bernard Harrison, just to name some of the speakers.

Yeah.

So I hope that as many of our listeners as possible will try to attend this. And believe me, it is never the same when you watch a recording, even a live streaming of an event is never the same as being there personally.

I have such extraordinary memories from the three times that I have been present at the G3 conferences. This will be my fourth one coming up. And Manning and Exhibitor's Booth, especially, has not only brought many new listeners to my audience, but also I have met, for the first time, many regular listeners, which has been such an encouragement.

It's always so encouraging to hear people that I don't even know, yell out, Chris Larson, Iron Shepherd's Iron! When I'm walking through the crowd or whatever. But now it is time for the unpleasant task to discuss how woke is the Southern Baptist Convention.

Defining Woke Ideology

And if you could, first of all, this may seem, at this point in time, like a silly question, but define what it means to be woke to begin with.

Yeah, yeah. I'd say it's kind of an urban colloquialism. It's the idea of someone having been awakened. And in this instance, you know, the idea that one has now been awakened to the fact that they are, that they need to begin fighting for and believing in.

They now view the world in the ways that, even from what you need to be seeing through the lens, being an oppressed, awakened to an issue, they have now been made woke. And so that's the thought process behind the vernacular woke.

Now, why is it that most conservative Bible-believing Christians, perhaps even especially from Reformed backgrounds, are very opposed to this ideology and movement? And it's interesting that although I just said most conservative Bible-believing Christians are opposed to it, I think, to my recollection, I can't even think of something similar where, I believe it's the first time in history where something that has become the battle cry of the far left, not only politically, but socially, morally, and so on, where the far left has captivated a significant percentage of conservative Bible-believing individuals, congregations, and denominations to follow in their footsteps in this bizarre and I think very dangerous ideology.

So what is it about being woke and all that comes underneath that umbrella that is so disturbing to Bible-believing Christians, at least many of them?

Well, I appreciate the way that you phrased it. And I agree that many, from decades gone, at the National Ligonier Conference, and I'm reminded of R .C. Sproul's and his battle for inerrancy, and John McArthur's for inerrancy.

We have, we're inerrancy with woke. Many have a bad, recognize this issue, not only of inerrancy, but hatred, calls for justice. Is the Bible sufficient? And those of us that what's happened because they rightly see and have discerned, reformed, and begun to, and prior to that, early 2000, they were dealing with church and divide.

Believers, those who hold to even reformed theology, and I know the topic of our discussion.

Yes, and to name a couple of specific things that raises the ire of those who are biblically faithful Christians is that this movement, ironically, is racist. It is really has as its foundation the fact that we should treat people and view them differently according to the color of their skin and not the content of their character as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was famous for saying.

And although I have some very serious problems with the theology of Dr. King, that was a very biblical ideology that he embraced because it's clear in the scriptures that we are not to view anyone as inferior to ourselves, not only judging them by the color of their skin, but their ethnic origin, even their socioeconomic status.

We are not to give people of a higher income preference in the church. We could go on and on and on about how we are never to use our eyes and the way people appear as a litmus test on how they should be treated and so on.

And yet this movement is trying to bring this into vogue, back into vogue, when it was the very worst element of this country, those who were truly racist and bigots, those who were amongst the founders of the Klan and the promoters of the Jim Crow laws and so on.

That's what they championed, that indeed we must treat people differently according to how they look. Isn't this absolutely insane?

And it's exactly what you thought. Now, again, for all the concern that we have about King's theology, what King got right, what the civil rights movement got right, was that their line of argumentation was on the basis of the Imago Dei.

Their arguments have an experience in the culture, in American culture, was that we should be treated equally. Martin Luther King is famous. I have a dream from the Communist Party. We hold these truths to be self-evident, but all men are created equal.

So the idea that he was advancing was the idea of equality. He was advancing the idea of equality on the basis of Genesis 127, that God created us in his image and likeness. But what we're seeing now, the page that's turning, is that what we're advancing in our current culture and climate is the idea of equity.

What they are interested in now are equity should be adjudicated.

In fact, could you pick right up when we return from our first break on that? And give us a contrast between equity and equality, because there is a difference. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in disagreement with your own pastor or elders or denomination over this issue or any issue that we bring up under the umbrella of the woke movement. Or perhaps you're a pastor, you disagree with your own elders and your own denomination, and you don't want to identify yourself at this point.

I understand that. And there are other reasons why someone might want to remain anonymous because it involves a personal and private matter. But other than that, if it's a general question, a general question on history, a general question on theology and doctrine and practice, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Virgil Walker right after these messages from our sponsors.

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The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all. My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including Vody Balcom, Justin Peters, Daryl Bernard Harrison, Virgil Walker, and James White.

More than 20 other speakers will be joining us and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur. For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Virgil Walker of the Just Thinking Podcast.

He's also the Executive Director of Operations at G3 Ministries and you can find out more about G3 Ministries at g3conference .com, g3conference .com and the G3 Ministries also has a new website that you can investigate as well and that's g3min .org, g3min .org and we are addressing today a very controversial theme.

How woke is the Southern Baptist Convention? How a denomination which was purged of liberalism returned to poison itself from the very same well? Our email address, if you have questions of your own is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence and country of residence and Virgil, right before the break, you are going to distinguish between equity and equality, the former of which is a demand of those who are the leaders and movers and shakers of what is known as the woke movement, the social justice warrior movement and on and on we could go with the phraseology that is used to describe this.

Equity Versus Equality

Yeah, yeah, I only want to mention one thing that you'd mentioned earlier at the top with regard to the G3 conference and that is, I know many of your listeners will be familiar with Rody Bauckham and his health-related concerns and the like and so we continue to pray for him with the hope and belief that he'll return to full health and strength and so as of right now, we're kind of on pause with regard to his participation in the G3 conference but other than that, all the speakers that you mentioned will definitely be a part of that and as well John MacArthur as well so we're really excited about that.

Yes, in fact, I had the privilege of just seeing very recently Rody Bauckham speak at a conference in Pennsylvania and at that time, he seemed like he was at the top of his health, gave me a bear hug that I think broke a couple of ribs and so it was a shock actually that he developed these serious health problems but I know that he has actually had symptoms of various kinds arise since his move to Zambia so we must pray for him as you said.

Absolutely, absolutely. But let's continue to talk about what the difference between equality and equity right now in the culture, what you're hearing unlike Dr. King's movement is you're hearing across the 60s pushed forward.

What you saw were men in these sandwich boards and on the sandwich board that they would wear if they walked the street, they put this over their head and they'd walk the streets there the board would say on the front and on the back I am a man, that was the rally cry the idea of being a man treated equally given equal opportunity to do well.

But what's now being advocated with those who are promoting Black Lives Matter and its ideology is they're promoting equity. And so what that requires to the point you made earlier, Chris that's a demand and that demand requires that I take from someone else footing in order to have equity in hand.

So if someone has more than me either I and or government should take from them in order to give to me so that I can have it. We're looking at now is language is being used is reframing society and culture in the very image that those who hold to woke ideology stand.

Now there are several sins that seem to be prevalent in this whole movement. You have the violation or the disobeying of God's command not to covet thy neighbor's goods. And in fact when these things are successfully mandated thou shalt not steal is one of the violations of the commandment.

And I would even say vengeance seems to be a primary motivation. You have people who want to take vengeance on the white race if you will. Even when those who are having the vengeance of the left brought upon them have nothing to do personally with the circumstances that anyone in this country or this world finds themselves in.

You have like for instance I'll give you an example uh my family immigrated on my mother's side to the United States from Poland in the early 1900s. And on my father's side they immigrated from Norway in the late 1800s and to Brooklyn, New York.

None of my ancestors owned slaves. The only possible slave owners that could have existed in my family were vikings on my father's side who if they had slaves they would have been white. So the fact that I should be held responsible and anyone in the 21st century should be held responsible because of the acts of people in the past just because of our skin color is really not only insane but it is wicked isn't it?

Absolutely well always in a either victimized status or and I and my ancestors have been oppressed and so what this has done and Daryl and I talk about this often on the Just Thinking podcast. For you to subscribe to social justice for you to subscribe to woke culture you have to have a.

It's what it creates and this is why it's problematic within within evangelical circles and and predominantly within within the SBC. Any denomination for that matter what it sets up in in this idea of so now what you have rather than all of us being equal creating the image and likeness of God Genesis 127 through one man Adam makes all of mankind.

Makes all of the nations right all the ethnos Acts 17 26. Rather than that what we now have is a different anthropology an unbiblical anthropology of the haves and the have-nots. The oppressed and the oppressor create what social justice create the idea of man.

It creates a different homology a different idea of sin now the greatest sin there and and while Christ the one sin that he was deficient in really covering the ground for can be known in woke culture that you now have got to adjudicate for have got to repay and and the way that you repay those are by involving yourself in anti-racist works and so it is a different ideology a different idea around salvation salvation is no longer through Christ alone salvation is through Christ alone and anti-racist works.

And so this is a different view. Any denomination and particularly the SPC.

Yes and we are talking about even the advocacy by those who are movers and shakers in the woke movement.

Of segregation.

Of of mimicking the horrific ideology of the nation of Islam and a lot of people might be surprised by this. I was surprised that. Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised but Spike Lee's movie about Malcolm X which actually in my opinion was an excellent movie he left out something very crucial that the Elijah Muhammad had actually invited on two occasions George Lincoln Rockwell the founder of the American Nazi party to speak at his rallies in Madison Square Garden because they agreed on segregation even though George Lincoln Rockwell hated black people and used the n-word when he was not in their company at the Madison Square Garden anyway uh they thought they saw him as an ally of sorts anyway and in fact you have Louis Farrakhan who's praised Hitler and so on.

So it is just utterly amazing that they are advocating that blacks flee white churches and join all black churches and so on and so on. If you could just pick up where I left off there.

Absolutely. Well you've got everything from culture. In other words on college campuses around the country there are black organizations. They want all black dormitories. They want all areas where they can congregate.

If there's more than one ethnicity they want it cleared from that ethnicity. There are entire days by which what college students are telling their teachers and other whites that they're not allowed in certain areas for teaching.

And so this is the kind of thing that's happening in the culture. The backwards view of what we talked about which was King's movement. And now fast forward that into evangelical circles. What you're seeing in those cases.

The New York Times article that white evangelical church began around the time that Trump was inaugurated in the office. But what's happening now. There's this movement that they're calling. They not only want to leave now.

They want to leave loud. In other words they want to make it very clear why they're leaving that they're leaving and that what needs to happen before they'll return. What these people have in their head is a mixed up ecclesiology.

They really do believe that the church is about them rather than the church being about being the bride of Christ.

How Wokeism Entered the Southern Baptist Convention

Now as our theme title has indicated the Southern Baptist Convention at one time uh was I don't know if dominated would be a fair description but it was very highly populated and influenced by the left and God in his grace used men such as Al Mohler and others to purge that denomination from leftism.

How on earth did they go from this point of finally being able to as it were breathe a sigh of relief that they had. The Southern Baptist Convention had returned to its biblical roots. Of course only a minority returned to its biblical roots of Calvinism but that's for another day in another interview.

There are many vehement anti-Calvinists that still remain in leadership in the Southern Baptist Convention but at the very least there was a return to biblical orthodoxy. How on earth did this wokeism of all things become infiltrated into the Southern Baptist Convention and begin to poison it again.

Yeah I think I think it's a great question. I don't think it's again this is nothing new none of the things that we're seeing are new. It would be Paul that that would tell the Ephesian elders as I depart right.

They're going to be ravenous wolves acts 19 will be ravenous wolves who come and the desire to devour the sheep. And so that's. What was that. That's exactly what took place. I think we let we we we believed that we had won and that the battle was over and so we we decided you know what we're it's all good.