April 6, 2006

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desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded
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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the
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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is
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James White. And good afternoon, welcome to The Dividing Line on a
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Thursday afternoon, third edition of The Dividing Line from the new underground bunker of Alpha Omega Ministries and things are, we've got a, we've got a curtain, those aren't curtains, window blinds up so I can see a little better now.
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But it's dark because we don't have any lights yet, so I've got an old Target 40 -watt bulb desk lamp sitting over there.
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That's about all we've got, but we'll get along with that and hopefully we get air conditioning this weekend because it's going to get up around 90 degrees here in the
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Phoenix area, so slowly but surely everything starts coming together.
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Of course, there's supposed to be a little something called the Easter pageant next week. I don't know how in the world that's going to happen. That's not got behind us.
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But anyway, on and onward and upward to other things. This morning was looking at a website and that's always a dangerous thing to do.
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Before we get back to the Davis sermon, it's very similar to the same topic.
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In fact, it's very closely connected and there is a website that I've mentioned in the past.
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I have attempted to get these folks to interact. They refuse, as most people over on this side of things do refuse to interact, at least in a meaningful fashion.
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There is a website called baptistfire .com. I've written to them a number of times in the past and they are anonymous.
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That always tells you something about who you're dealing with. But there is an article posted on the 15th of March titled
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More SBC Leaders Warn of Calvinism. Two brothers from two seminaries add their voices to a growing list.
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I just love not only the utter lack of balance in this kind of stuff and the lack of interaction with reality itself, but likewise, utter ignorance of history.
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Check out this first paragraph. Baptist Fire has for some time now reported the threat of the theology of Calvinism spreading throughout the
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Southern Baptist Convention. Calvinism has split Southern Baptist churches and has infiltrated some Southern Baptist schools and seminaries.
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Our special report, Crept In Unawares, carefully documents the spread of Calvinism and provides informative sources for pastors and church members, which by the way, includes things like Dave Hunt.
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The report also provides links to sermons and statements by influential Southern Baptist leaders who are concerned about the spread of Calvinism.
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Of course, the reality is, if you go back to the founders, this isn't something that has come in from the outside.
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It was there at the very beginning. And these folks just want to rewrite history. They just want to completely ignore the reality of the existence of James Pettigrew Boyce and what he wrote and what he believed.
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And I think that's why they don't interact with anyone, because the only way that their position can hold up is if people remain ignorant.
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And people don't remain ignorant if you interact with people, so you just put your stuff out and hope you influence enough ignorant people who aren't going to check you out to accomplish something.
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It's the only way I can figure it out. I just, I don't know how else it is. There's even a section here about these people want to do debates and debating is ridiculous and blah, blah, blah, blah.
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Well, that's because they know that they couldn't do it. But then it gives this chain of events and it's talking about, of course, the
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Ergon Kanner appearance on the Founders blog. And I just love this.
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Number two says, after the article was released, Calvinists on the blog immediately started posting comments about Hunt, many of which were spiteful and hateful.
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OK, here comes. Now, remember, Dr. Kanner says that Calvinists are worse than Muslims. Dr.
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Kanner, you know, just just said incredible, called Calvinism a virus. That doesn't get mentioned.
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Well, it actually does get mentioned because that's considered to be a good thing. But here are the spiteful, hateful things said here, quoting, for example, a former disgruntled staff member at Hunt's church said someone needs to look at the true stats of a local healthy church.
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You will not find it at Johnny Hunt's church, end quote. Now, the only way that could be hateful or spiteful is if it's untrue.
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Is Hunt's church different than many of the mega Southern Baptist churches where the back door is just as big as the front door, where you have to baptize 60 people to get one person who attends regularly?
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Is it different than that? Is that what's being asserted here? If it is, then you could you'd at least have a ground upon which to try to argue that the statements wrong, whether that makes it hateful or spiteful is something else.
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But then then the other one here is here's another hateful, spiteful thing. Another said his theology and preaching are weak.
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Oh, wow. That's man, I tell you, that is nasty.
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Calvinists are worse than Muslims, but his theology and preaching are hateful.
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That's I mean, the folks at this at Baptist Fire just wouldn't wouldn't know the balance if it's unbelievable.
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So anyway, then they they put all these statements from from Dr. Cantor up here, and some of them were obviously significantly nastier than anything mentioned here.
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For example, have any of you done anything except kill your churches with sermons expounding the
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Westminster Confession? Probably not. Now, obviously, that assumes that a person who's reformed does nothing but expound the
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Westminster Confession. What happened to the 1689 London Baptist Confession? First of all, secondly, people preaching on that.
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How about preaching on John six or Romans nine or Ephesians one or something like that? Anyways, I would guess that unlike William Carey, most guys who are hyper about Calvinism use it to justify your laziness.
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How is that not spiteful and hateful? I just wonder the the double standard is is pretty, pretty amazing.
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Of course, the debate challenge section and they they just notice it says they instead sought the services of someone who is not a
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Southern Baptist who evidently has made a small name for himself by issuing debate challenges. That would be yours.
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Truly, that's me. And no one sought my services.
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Baptist Fire, anonymous people who won't tell us who you are and stand behind what you say. No one sought my services.
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No one came and said, you need to go after these guys. I, in fact, challenged Dr. Cantor numerous times before this.
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He had declined each invitation. And then when he came on the founders blog and the the conversation that took place became known when
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I posted on my website, that's that is what resulted in this debate taking place.
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No one came to me and said, we need to bring you anything of the kind. It's just it's just silly. This is the editor's remarks.
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Thank God for the Cantors. As more SBC leaders come out strongly against Calvinism, the spread of Calvinism will slow.
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Hopefully Calvinism will wane significantly in the SBC over the next several years. Well, folks, it might.
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You know what I you know that that's quite possible. But the only way to actually banish
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Calvinism is actually to deal with the biblical text. And because as long as the Holy Spirit's in the world, there are going to be people who care about what the
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Bible teaches. And they're going to care about it more than than people like baptist fires, shallow surface level, rah -rah type rhetoric and inability to engage the text in any meaningful fashion.
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And so that's that could be happening. But it was it was interesting to read this and the the utter lack of any any semblance of fairness or accuracy in what it was what it was saying was sort of sort of sad to observe.
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Well, anyway, yeah, not the text. It's like not go there. Speaking of the text, last week we spent a small amount of time.
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Well, we spent the whole time actually on just two of the citations that are taken from the
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Dr. Davis sermon. By the way, I did as I said I would do on Tuesday.
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I contacted Dr. Davis. I let him know. And my opponent coming up on the 21st in Sedalia on the subject of Calvinism, who
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I discover is an associate pastor at Dr. Davis's church. He is a former assistant attorney general for the state of Illinois by the name of Pastor Wright, W -R -I -G -H -T.
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And I sent this information about the programs
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I've done so far to Dr. Davis and asked him to pass that along. Because, again, the reason
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I'm doing this is hopefully to avoid spending the entire debate dealing with straw men and misrepresentations.
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And so if I demonstrate and document the misrepresentations of places where Dr. Davis, for example, followed
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Dave Hunt in his errors, then maybe we'll have a real good debate on the 21st.
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That would be useful to folks. And so I have a number of more a number of statements already queued up ready to go here in the
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Dr. Davis sermon. And so with that, we will press on. What kind of love is it that will consign men to hell capriciously and arbitrarily with no chance or opportunity for those people to decide for themselves to be saved?
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What kind of love is that? What kind of God is that? Is that just? Is that righteous?
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Calvinism, by taking away man's will, makes God responsible for everything.
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The Calvinist from yesteryear, A .W. Pink, whom my missionary friend had been reading after, said this to deny
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God's foreknowledge is to deny his omniscience. But we must go further.
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Not only did God's omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but God decreed beforehand that he should do so.
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Pink thinks that because God knew something ahead of time, that God also planned and forced it to happen.
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Now, can I tell you, this thinking and teaching doesn't make God greater. This makes God the author of and responsible for all of man's sins.
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Now, you can see Dr. Davis has drunk very deeply at the well of Dave Hunt's misapprehensions and use of false terminology in his argumentation.
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A number of errors there. The term force, of course, the idea that man has no will, another error.
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Of course, Reformed people believe that man has a will. It is a will enslaved to sin.
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It is a will in love with sin. It is a will that outside of regeneration and renewal will never choose
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God, is incapable of doing so. Romans chapter 8, verses 7 through 8 says that. John 6, 44 says that.
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John 8, 43 and 47 says that, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the will is there.
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The will is active, but the will is in rebellion and it needs renewal and needs to be freed from the slavery of sin.
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Again, I would ask Dr. Davis how God knows future events, if in point of fact, he is not the determiner thereof.
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Is he just merely the passive observer of these things? When he created all things and he knew what was going to take place, he did so without a purpose.
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You know, it's difficult for me to believe that these folks who repeat this stuff over and over again, as if it somehow is an objection to Calvinism, do not realize it's actually an objection to simple
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Christian theism. And have they never thought these things through? Have they never thought what it means to say, did
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God know everything that was going to happen when he created? Yes. But did God force it to happen?
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No. What does that mean? What kind of language is that? If God created with perfect knowledge of what was going to take place in every aspect of history, then he either did so for a purpose, which is what
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I believe, or he did so without a purpose. So he knew all the evils could take place.
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He knew all the tragedies could take place. He knew about tsunamis and earthquakes and everything else. But he did it without any purpose, just said, well, you know,
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I think I'll create and wow, a lot of bad stuff's going to happen, but OK, I'll just blame it on man's free will.
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Have they never thought through this? I just I don't understand it. It was either purposeful or purposeless.
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One of the two. How do you know? I mean, that's why I think a consistent Arminian, a consistent
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Arminian is going to be an open theist. I mean, I consider open theism a rank heresy, but at least it's consistent
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Arminianism, at least it puts the emphasis in the right place. The source of open theism, which if you're new to the program, open theism is a belief that God does not have exhaustive knowledge of future events.
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He does not know what free creatures will do in the future. He knows what he's going to do. He can predict things on a certain level, but he does not know what free creatures are going to do so that libertarian free will on the part of the creature is true libertarian free will.
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And so obviously Arminius and the early Arminians recognized that was heresy.
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They didn't go there, but open theist today, Gregory Boyd, John Sanders, Clark Pinnock, they are more than happy to affirm this and to try to defend this.
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And of course, we have a debate against John Sanders from Reformed Theological Seminary. You can listen to and see if it stands up to the word of God or not.
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It certainly does not. But you can listen if you'd like to hear how that works out. But the point is, at least they're consistent.
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At least they can say, well, actually, when God created, he didn't know all this was going to happen. He didn't know
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Adam was going to fall. In fact, John Sanders said that that God was surprised when Adam fell. And he didn't know any one of us was ever going to exist, not a one of us, because think of it, your existence is the result of numerous free will choices by all sorts of people.
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And so in light of that. God didn't know you'd ever exist, he doesn't know when you're going to be born, he didn't know he doesn't know when you're going to die.
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All that stuff about your days being written for you in his book, all that is irrelevant. You have to come up with odd ways of trying to figure those passages out.
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I mean, it's at least a consistent philosophical system. It has nothing to do with the Bible, but at least it's a consistent philosophical system.
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And I can at least respect those people who will at least be consistent at that point. But I don't understand how people can preach like this and not realize they're actually objecting to their own system.
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He will say, does God have decrees? Yes. But he then limits those decrees to only things in the natural realm.
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God basically can do what he wants out there and he can do earthquakes and fires and floods and whatever else is in the natural realm.
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But when it comes to what human beings do, let's not go over to Genesis chapter 50 and Joseph being sold into slavery in Egypt.
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You know, God has an intention, man has an intention, both same action. Let's not talk about Isaiah 10, let's not go to the cross, look at Acts 4, 27 to 28.
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Let's not touch these 10 foot pole. And of course, we've seen this over and over again. It happened on a rather well -known call in radio program back in December of 2003, too.
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So nothing new, but you're still not able to get folks to to really engage this stuff.
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And so when you use language like forcing and things like that, as if, and it's going to come up here in the next clip, too, as if somehow if God is sovereign over things, he's he's forcing, you know what the picture is.
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The picture is of this poor, innocent human being and just wants to do what's what's right.
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And and big mean God is behind him with his big gun saying be bad. And I mean, it's just absurd to even to even suggest that that is what is being said.
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No one is forced. Man does what he does because he loves to do what he does. And outside of grace, changing his heart and outside of the restraining grace of God, I really wonder if these folks believe in the restraining grace of God.
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I really wonder if they believe that God is restraining evil in this world.
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I sure do. I sure do. In fact, when we see terrible, horrible things happening, we see what
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Islam is doing these days and the real nature of Islam coming out in the behavior of these people. And and we see these these things happening where where, you know, people murder all sorts of well, remember that young man two weeks ago at the rave kills, kills six people and then puts the shotgun to his face and blows his head off.
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Obviously, drugs and everything else involved in the culture of death and all the rest of that stuff, those are instances where I believe
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God just lifts his finger of restraint. Just lifts his finger of restraint.
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God doesn't have to force anybody to do that. He is actively involved in restraining the vast majority of the evil of man's heart.
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And every once in a while for his own purposes, he lifts that gracious restraint.
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And we're shocked. And I think that's the horror of hell. Is that God's hand of restraint will be gone?
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It'll be gone. And the full scope of the of the evil and darkness of man's heart will be able to be expressed.
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Well, how could God do that from this perspective? You know, I was listening to someone just yesterday on the way home on a national radio program that was defining the
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Christian position as beginning with libertarian freedom. Beginning with free will. Well, how can God restrain evil?
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If it's if it's unjust for God to to raise dead sinners to spiritual life, if that in fact,
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I received an email from a friend of mine at a certain very large evangelical Bible college in the
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Midwest. And a very well -known theologian was speaking there this week, and he reports to me that one of his arguments made in chapel was that compatibilism and Calvinism, he was mocking both, basically teaches that God implants a chip in our brain so he can control us.
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That's what compatibilism is. And I listen to this stuff and I just go.
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Where I don't understand how people can can try to defend these types of systems, try to make these kinds of statements.
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How could God, to be consistent with a libertarian free will perspective, how could
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God restrain evil? How does he have a right to do that? And if they allow that God can restrain evil, then why can he not raise people's spiritual life, make them new creatures and cause them to love
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Jesus Christ because that's their nature to do so now? Change of being God haters to God lovers.
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Why is that made divine rape or or robots or puppets and all the rest of this stuff?
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If God restrains evil, does that mean we're puppets? I mean, I haven't mentioned this because I didn't want to completely prejudice the audience, but I suppose
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I should mention now at one point in this sermon, I think it's coming up here might even be at this point at one point in this sermon,
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Dr. Davis is standing before his people and he has a puppet on a string and he's dancing this puppet around as if that's what
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Calvinism is saying about mankind. That's the kind of theatrics that go into this kind of presentation.
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It's just absolutely amazing to me, it truly is, but anyways, if I keep going like this, I'm not going to get too many clips today.
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The third thing that God cannot do in salvation is God cannot force a man to love him or accept his love.
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If love is forced, it ceases to be love. That is the ultimate reason why
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God gave man a choice in the Garden of Eden to start with. God didn't want robots who had no choice but to love him.
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God wanted men and women who would choose to love him.
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Now, again, every Calvinist that I know of, and that is a fairly wide group, believes that we choose to love
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God. I have chosen to love God. Now, why does that does that make me better than someone else?
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No. And the reason that does not make me better than someone else is because I was enabled to do so.
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I was freed from the just condemnation of my sins. I was also freed from the effect of that sin in enslaving my will to evil.
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And I have, as a result, chosen, because it is my nature as a redeemed creature to do so,
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I have chosen to believe in Jesus Christ and to cling to him and to follow him.
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I made that choice. The difference between us is the Arminian wants to say, and God's entire attempt to save is dependent upon that choice.
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Without that choice, God fails. The Calvinist says, my entire choice is dependent upon the success of what the triune
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God has chosen to do to glorify himself from eternity past. One is theocentric.
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I'm theocentric. I'm when I describe and it's interesting, I was listening to a debate while writing today and even listening to the
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Christian who was doing the debate and he did fine. But you could tell that he wasn't reformed because when he described the gospel, he described it very much in human terms.
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It's what man it's how man can get this and man can get that and so on and so forth.
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It wasn't really what God has done so as to glorify himself.
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And I thought if I were in that person's position that I would have been describing it in a very different fashion than he was.
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But we are theocentric. We describe what God has done and that remains true for each and every generation.
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The Arminian is anthropocentric. He's focused upon what man does to allow
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God to save himself. That's the difference between between the two. You see,
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God could and did create a race of people that he allows to determine their own destiny.
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Determine their own destiny. Now, where do you get that from scripture? Determine your own doesn't doesn't doesn't
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Psalm 139 say that God has determined the very, very day of our death. How could that be true if what was just said is is is the case where where is this man determines his own destiny stuff in the scriptures.
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So we have lots of stuff about choosing. I don't know what God's secret decree is. And so I choose in light of his prescriptive decree.
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I I choose to either do what God says do or not. But the fact of the matter is the day of my death is fixed in God's decree.
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Now, if I just choose to stop doing what I've been doing since June of last year and I decide to stop exercising and I decide to stop getting that that aerobic exercise in there that gets your heart all healthy and stuff like that.
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And I decide, you know what? I like honey buns. I like cinnamon rolls, you know,
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Cinnabons, you know, they have those in the airport when you go through and they are just you if you look at a
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Cinnabon, your fingers get sticky. Isn't that isn't that the case? You didn't have to touch it. My fingers have gotten sticky walking by the
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Cinnabon on the way to my gate. It is incredible. It's in the air, just clings to you.
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But they are so good when they're warm and gooey with cold milk.
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And oh, it's just great. And I could just I could just Starbucks.
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Yeah, I can't be too mean to Starbucks because my daughter works there now.
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But I mean, anyway. I could just eat that stuff all day long, stop exercising.
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And the fact matters, if that's all you ate, I would materially impact my lifetime from a human perspective.
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I mean, given, you know, of ignoring things like, you know, getting run over by somebody on in a truck or something like that, a person who takes care of themselves and exercises and takes care of their heart.
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And I've looked at my family history and if anything is going to get me, it's going to be a cardiovascular thing. So I got to keep on the cardiovascular stuff.
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Generally speaking, a person who takes care of himself is going to live longer than the person who shovels Cinnabon down their throat every single day.
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And in fact, by a long, a long period of time. So how could God know what
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I'm going to die if everything, if it's just all up to me and I just make those decisions and make those choices on my own and God has nothing to do with it, he may have determined he may have given me the gifts to be able to minister for years and years and years.
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And he may even have it in his mind that that 20 years from now, when
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I'm in my 60s, that I'm going to do something that's going to be used of him in a great way. What if I kill myself with Cinnabons before then?
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I guess he has to start all over again, has to start all over again. How does, don't they think about these things before they make these kinds of statements?
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Because he's even going to say here, he's going to say, well, are there decrees? Listen, are there decrees in the Bible where God determines that something is going to happen?
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Absolutely. Yes. There are decrees in the Bible where God creates the world and it is done.
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There are decrees in the Bible where God sends a flood upon the whole earth and it is done.
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But there are other decrees in the Bible where God decrees something and gives man a choice about whether or not he is going to follow that decree or not.
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Now, that's not even a proper use of the term decree, if that's what it is. That would be a prescriptive revelation of his will rather than a decree.
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But do you notice that was all natural stuff? That was all stuff in regards to, you know, floods and fires.
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And even though I have to say Noah's flood really trumped on a lot of people's libertarian free will as they were going, blah, blah, blah.
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That was so much the end of their libertarian free will. But that limitation of it doesn't make any sense.
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And when we come back from this break, I'd like to look at some biblical passages or at least one that sort of goes the other direction, shall we say, from what
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Dr. Davis had to say. We're going to take a break. Be right back. What is
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Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book Chosen but Free, A New Cult, Secularism, False Prophecy Scenarios?
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No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant.
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In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler. But the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.
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It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.
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In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme
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Calvinism, defines what the reform faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture.
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The potter's freedom, a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen but Free. You'll find it in the reform theology section of our bookstore at AOMN .org.
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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.
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The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the
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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning
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Bible study begins at 930 a .m. and the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m.
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on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805
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North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE.
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If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org
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where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.
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Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God. James White in his book
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The King James Only Controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true
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Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.
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You can order your copy of James White's book The King James Only Controversy by going to our website at www .aomin
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.org. Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality.
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Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.
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In their book The Same Sex Controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the
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Bible's teaching on the subject explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including
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Genesis Leviticus and Romans. Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law.
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In a straightforward and loving manner they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.
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The Same Sex Controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at www .aomin
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.org. Back to the dividing line we are listening to a sermon by Dr.
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Davis on reasons why he is not a Calvinist. He's already told us he was pretty much following Dave Hunt and so we know why someone who follows
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Dave you know just could not possibly understand what Calvinism is all about.
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I was going to mention some some texts and passages just in passing. These are certainly passages that are familiar to many people but one of them
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I've always found rather ironic in that it is a pagan king who is used of the
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Lord to rebuke those I think who would question his control over all things.
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Daniel chapter 4 Nebuchadnezzar remember he had become very arrogant and God struck him down for a period of time and that took his rationality away from him and in Daniel chapter 4 beginning verse 34.
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But at the end of that period I Nebuchadnezzar raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me and I blessed the most high and praised and honored him who lives forever for his dominion is an everlasting dominion and his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
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All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing but he does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth and no one can ward off his hand or say to him what have you done.
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Please notice he doesn't just simply say oh God rules over fires and floods and natural disasters he does rule in the host of heaven but he also rules among the inhabitants of the earth and no one that's a person human can ward off his hand or say to him what have you done.
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God does not sit down in the dock shall we say and allow us to accuse him of things that's why when we read about the trial the false gods that that text where so often in speaking for example again thinking about the
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LDS Easter pageant coming up next week and talking to Mormons we go to Isaiah 43 and 44 and passages like that where God demonstrates who he truly is his what's unique about God over against the false gods and in the context of doing that for example in Isaiah chapter 43 verses 12 to 13 you're my witnesses declares
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Yahweh that I am God no one can deliver out of my hand when I act who can reverse it.
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Well seemingly from the Arminian perspective everybody God has acted to bring about salvation but they they can freely reverse it.
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God has decreed the salvation of every single individual but they can freely reverse it. Evidently that doesn't apply to them.
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Isaiah 45 7 you know I form light and create darkness I bring prosperity and create disaster it's literally the
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Hebrew term raw evil I Yahweh do all these things. He's big enough to take that that accusation and continue to say
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I am holy and just and all that I do. You can just simply throw up your hands and say contradiction contradiction or admit that God's bigger than you might want to admit that he is
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Isaiah 46 9 through 10. Remember the four former things those of long ago I am God and there is no other
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I am God there is none like me. I make known the end of the beginning from ancient times and what is still to come.
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I say my purpose will stand and I will do all that I please.
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It's not but the hundred thirty third or the thirty third Psalm is all about the contrast between man and his frustrated plans and God and his fulfilled plans.
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Daniel 11 36 the king will do as he pleases he will exalt and magnify himself above every God will say unheard of things against the
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God of gods he will be successful until the time of wrath is completed for what has been determined must take place and we know the scriptures are very very clear and proclaiming to us the
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Lord does whatever pleases him in the heavens and on the earth and the seas and all their depths on one thirty five six on one fifteen three our
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God is in heaven he does whatever pleases him etc etc etc.
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The testimony of scripture is indeed very very broad. Now before we go to our phone callers
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I had to chuckle when
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I heard this one because some of you remember the quote unquote it's hard to even call it a debate because it wasn't really a debate but we had a dividing line a number of years ago where a person who spends a good deal of time in the
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Powell talk came on to discuss these issues ostensibly didn't really get around to doing much of that but anyway there is a particular verse that this person really thought was their their killer verse
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I mean this this just proved their position and you could never ever refute that. Well sitting here listening along to Dr.
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Davis and well here here it is. Proverbs 129 for they for that they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the
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Lord. Do you know there are people who do not choose to fear God. Yep there are there there are definitely people who do not choose to fear
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God and every Calvinist knows that. And in fact every Calvinist would say that until God in his sovereign mercy and grace breaks the chains of slavery that hold us as God haters in the service of of evil that every one of us will not choose to fear
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God because we know what Paul said Romans chapter 8 those from the flesh cannot submit themselves to the law of God they're not able to do so there is an inability there and so we recognize that that's the case and that the only reason that I have chosen to fear
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God is because God in his grace has been kind to me just one more real quick and this one is particularly interesting.
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What is God's definition of justice anyway biblically justice in relation to man is giving everyone an equal chance regardless of their parentage poverty power or position.
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So there's justice there's justice equal chance equal chance at what what what equal chance of what we're not told.
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I have a feeling that he would say equal chance of salvation but that's not justice. In fact salvation salvation is mercy it's the extension of mercy and so would this be an equal chance at mercy equal chance at grace.
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Does that mean grace and mercy are things that have to be apportioned equally to each person. Grace can be demanded grace can be we have you can only give five portions of grace to any one person is that is that the equality type of thing.
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That we have going on there I don't know we're not told that certainly isn't what justice is by the way justice would be holding each person accountable on the same basis to the same law which is what
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God does. He doesn't release his justice it's not like you have an Islam where well as long as you repent doesn't you know the sin doesn't have to be paid for it doesn't have to be any atonement.
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I'll just wink and it goes away. No every person sin will be punished it will either be punished in the center in eternity or it'll be punished in the substitute the perfect substitute
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Jesus Christ on the cross Calvary. That's it. There's there's only two places where forgiveness can take place and punishment for sin will take place and that will happen for everyone.
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That's just what's what's going to happen. So so we've been listening to the
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Dr. Davis that you know I want to there's one more on this subject before it transitions subjects and so I want to get to one more before we go to our our callers real quick.
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This is another bad example on Dr. Davis's part. I would like to explain why
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I believe as I do suppose a man went to an orphanage he had predetermined by his grace that he would adopt a certain boy and certain girl and take them into his family.
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Can anyone reasonably accuse the man of being unjust or unfair because he choose chose those two and left the others.
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The preacher replied to the Calvinist certainly not as you've explained the situation
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I would find no problem of any kind with a man's purpose and his choice. But the preacher said but suppose the man went to the orphanage and sent word to all the children saying whosoever will may come and then refused to take any but the two he had originally intended to take.
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With that I have a problem which Calvinism cannot resolve Calvinism cheapens the unfathomable love of the father for sinners in that he would give his son to die not just for those who would love him but for those who would be his enemies forever.
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Now let me just respond first to the last thing that was said that does sort of actually transition topic. How is
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God's love demonstrated by God needlessly causing
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Christ to suffer the wrath of the sins due to people that God in his exhaustive divine foreknowledge in their position would know we're never going to avail themselves of that resulting in Christ failing to save those he dies to save and the father failing to save those he decrees to save and the spirit failing to bring that accomplished salvation to fruition in their lives resulting in the triune majesty being disappointed in the destruction of the objects of their redemptive love for all eternity.
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How is that love. How does that exalt the love of God that God would engage in such activity.
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I honestly don't understand that. How does that work. I'm not followed up but going back to the illustration.
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Hopefully everyone sees who at least has an accurate knowledge of what reform theology is how the illustration of the man going to the orphanage is completely wrong.
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Where did it go wrong. And this and I wish I actually I'm really hoping that Dr. Davis is listening or he'll listen to the archives or something because I honestly would like him to understand the system he denies because right now is painfully obvious he does not and he seems like a very nice fellow and he's a very good speaker and I would
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I would love for him to at least understand what it is the real issues really are the problem with the illustration is the same type of problem that we had with the illustration in Norman Geisler's book where he talks about the young boys swimming in the swimming hole and they start to drown and the farmer only saves one when he could have saved all three and that's supposed to be an objection against Calvinism.
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It's the picture of the people who are being saved that is completely wrong. And as I said in the potter's freedom if you want to make that a real illustration then you don't have boys doing something as little as swimming in a swimming hole as if breaking
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God's holy law was something as little as an innocent as swimming in a swimming hole during a hot summer day.
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Instead if you want to make it accurate you would have to picture rebels who when the king was gone have invaded his castle and they have been murdering and torturing all the people in his city and they've hold themselves up now in his castle when he comes back with his with his armies and they are burning the castle and destroying themselves in the process and even though the king commands them to come out they just simply go on destroying his property and in the process bring about their own certain destruction.
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And the son of the king then goes in at the cost of his life he saves certain of these rebels who continue in their hatred until they are changed by his act of saving them that at least would start to approach and approximate a meaningful biblical example.
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So to apply it to the example that Dr. Davis just gave there's one problem with the illustration.
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You see the idea is whosoever will may come. Okay who's going to will who's going to choose.
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You see when the man comes to the orphanage he may have sent ahead whosoever will but unless he changes those rebel hearts and that's where the whole orphanage thing gets lost because we're not just a bunch of orphans poor little innocent people.
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We're rebel sinners we're God haters we're under his wrath if you want to make the connection you would have to have have said these are people on death row.
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But the main problem with the illustration is whosoever will may come unless their hearts can be changed they're all going to sit there and remain where they are that's the problem that's the point.
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No man is able to come unto me unless the father who sent me draws him and who does he draw he draws those that he's given unto his son
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John 637 and so that kind of illustration simply doesn't work.
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Well let's go ahead and take some phone calls on that subject and once again let's talk with Pierre how you doing
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Pierre. Yes sir I wanted to address the question that was brought up by I guess that Dr.
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Davis at the beginning about the the moral problem that that Calvinism brings up with regards to God.
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If I mean you argue that men reject
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God and they hate him. Let me say for one first of all that I don't think that every man who is not in your at least by Calvinistic criteria is not going to be the elect or is not the elect hates
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God. I think there are many Catholics Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons who love
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God. Now you can argue that they have a confused materiality but I think you really cannot say that they hate
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God. I can't on the basis of God's word. Yes of course I can. How do you say that.
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And what simple let's let's use Mormonism if you're worshiping a false God then you are showing despite the true
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God. I've had many a Mormon say well if God's true like that I would never worship a God like that. I said yeah that's that's the whole point.
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Same with Jehovah's Witnesses and others. The Bible says that man is suppressing the knowledge of God and that part of that suppression comes out in false religion.
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Worshiping gods do not exist. And so if you're if you know the true God is there and you're suppressing that knowledge of God.
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How is that not being a God hater. How is that not being one who is in rebellion against the truth of God that's revealed to us and yet continuing to say oh
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I love this God over there. I love that God over there. How is that not being a God hater. Well then using that type of argument then
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I guess you have no right to be angry with those who say that you are not a true Christian because they see what you're preaching as false doctrine.
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Well that's why I take him to the word of God if somebody says you know by that from their perspective using that argument and you're a
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God hater too. Well and the only way to find out who actually is is to go to the word of God which is exactly what we invite people to do over and over again.
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I'm not upset with anybody who says anything about me if they're going to say I'm a God hater fine. Let's go to the word of God determine who
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God is and how a person knows him. That's that's the final. I'm irrelevant. It's what the word of God says.
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And every every single single conversation we've ever had is always what it comes back to is what the word of God says.
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Now the other thing that I the other point that I wanted to bring up with regards to to from a
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Calvinistic perspective and I know that no Calvin is that no Calvin. No believer in Calvinism would express it this way but I think the conclusion is in my view anyway inescapable and that is that since Calvinism teaches that God predestined all who will go to either heaven or hell then it is no wonder that mankind behaves at least those who are not the elect in a hell bound fashion because that's what they were created to be.
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If you're going to use the Potter analogy if God creates a chamber pot it's going to behave like a chamber pot if he creates a
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Ming vase even though initially it might be used as a chamber pot ultimately it's still a
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Ming vase and can be cleaned off and can be recognized for what it is. So it's no wonder you know that these people behave the way they do it really has nothing to do with their free will or their hatred of God because that is something that God has given them because that's the way he created them to be well that's the moral dilemma of Calvinism.
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No that's that's that's the moral dilemma of Romans chapter 9 because you were just quoting it. It's amazing how many times
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I remember I was on KTKK radio in Salt Lake City with Van Hale and Van raised as a
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Mormon raised the exact same issue and I took in Romans chapter 9 I said look what you're what you're arguing against is exactly what the apostle
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Paul says right here. He raises the same issue he'll say well where's where's justice here how can how can anyone complain how can anyone resist his will and Paul's answer is who are you oh man who answers back to God the thing formed will not say the one who formed it why did you make me like this and his response to me it's interesting we make this tape available
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I don't remember what number is but we make this tape available it's available on the website and his response to me is oh look
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I understand that from a certain perspective if you believe that the Bible is inerrant and complete in and of itself
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Calvinism makes sense and I found that fascinating because he was basically admitting the reason
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I don't accept that is because I have other scriptures and I don't believe the Bible is perfect I believe it's the word of God oh as far as translated correctly blah blah blah but if you actually believe that the
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Bible is in itself inspired and inerrant then yeah it would make perfect sense because yep that's exactly what
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Paul says there he I'm raising the objection that Paul is raising and that's what you just did you just raised the very objection that the apostle of Jesus Christ raised and answered now if you're raising the objections that the apostle responded to Pierre what does that mean about your position well first of all
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I think your interpretation of what the apostle said is totally erroneous I think you're putting you're taking that completely out of context he's not talking about salvation if you look at it in context what's he talking about he's talking about the positions that he's appointed certain men here on earth he's talking about about earthly callings really so let's let's let's see if that matches the
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Bible which says for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I'll have compassion on whom
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I have compassion our mercy and compassion about offices and callings or are they about salvation
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I think everybody knows the answer that so then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy for the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose
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I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth so then he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires and that's then the context which leads to you will say to me then why does he still find fault for who resists his will so fault will hardening mercy those are not salvation terms pierre that's not a salvation context
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I well there there there is of course both temporal salvation and eternal salvation
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I think that's the difference that you're missing where do you get that from the apostle Paul that's your Mormonism that's not
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Paul well again one of the wonderful things about Paul for the rest of Christian world that he's dead he can't come up here and and and talk and that's one of the problems that I see in Christianity they only believe in dead prophets who cannot who cannot be questioned who cannot be who cannot clarify their words who cannot rise up and say
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James White you are wrong on this issue this is what I meant or we actually believe that the apostle Paul writing under the inspiration of the
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Holy Spirit can write with enough clarity that we can't understand what he says and we don't need people coming along changing what
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Paul says later on claiming to be prophets because if we take the 26 volumes of the journal discourses and try to figure out what
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Paul said from that we'll get 48 different viewpoints won't we well if Paul wrote so clearly as you'd indicate then why is there so much division in Christianity oh there oh thank you
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Pierre you haven't you you I don't not not sure which programs you listen to but how many times have I addressed the bankruptcy of the argument that says if the
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Bible is actually so sufficient to function as the sole rule of faith why are there so many different viewpoints
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Pierre there's 165 different groups that trace themselves back to Joseph Smith was Joseph Smith that unclear there's divisions in Mormonism today does that mean your prophets are unclear you've got profit you've got people at BYU that are coming up with all sorts of different perspectives does that mean your prophet can't tell them what to believe
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I'm sorry sir but you apply this to your own position and it self -destructs the clarity of the revelation can be denied by anyone man's sinful heart will corrupt even the clearest revelation in fact the most basic revelation in scripture is one that the entire
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Mormon church corrupts and misses and that is I am the only God that has ever existed or ever will exist so man's ability to twist what
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God has revealed is no argument against the clarity of his revelation none whatsoever so I'm sorry you know the apostle
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Paul you know when you say it's good that he's dead you just illustrated my point you just illustrated that if we just go with what the
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Bible says then I can't refute you but I have my prophets and that's what I've said all along the difference between us every single time we talk
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I come back to scripture scripture is inspired scripture is an errand I view scripture the way the Lord Jesus Christ did and when you do that it what you don't think
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I do where did where did Jesus ever hold your view of the Old Testament scriptures I'm not sure which one is specifically you're speaking of but well that the
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Bible as your your perspective that that's that's insufficient that we have we have we need new revelation we need we need new people who bring revelation even though you haven't had revelation in a long time but what is what is the trend that we see there are two great grand trends that we see in the
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Bible one is that God works through prophets where there are no prophets there are no more scriptures and actually the law and the prophets were until John Pierre since then the kingdom of God is preached so something obviously changed that point didn't it the other trend that we see is that men almost invariably reject the living oracles of God and I think that's what's happened here actually what men do that it's far clearer that the
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Jews possessing the written word of God chose to create forms of authority that nullified the word of God isn't that what
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Matthew 15 says you nullify the word of God for the sake of your traditions that is correct and you know what that's the same thing that happened with Christianity early
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Christianity they rejected the true word of God they rejected the apostles the living apostles and built onto themselves their own church well that's what you say of course the scriptures actually say that the church would never apostatize and that in fact the truth would always be with us the whole concept the whole
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LDS concept of the church ceasing to exist as the church and quote -unquote authority being lost goes directly against Paul's own teaching when he says that God the father would be glorified through the church throughout all ages in Ephesians chapter 3 so that whole apostasy idea which didn't even exist in April 6 1830 and came about later as a development in Joseph Smith teachings as even
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David Whitmer pointed out is directly contrary to what the New Testament teaches concerning the perpetuity of the church and the fact that Christ would build his church and the gates of Hades itself would not prevail against that church again
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I think you're you're misunderstanding what what the Lord meant when he said that when he when he said well you tell you what
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I'm not sure you've ever read it but I had an extensive conversation with a couple of your apologists a number of years ago especially on Hugh Nibley's take on that particular passage it's available at www .aomin
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.org and I'd invite you to take a look at it thank you once again Pierre for your phone call I appreciate thank you have a good day it is always illustrative
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I think of many of the things that I have to say on this program and I do appreciate Pierre calling in thanks for listening today we will continue
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Lord willing and maybe even have air conditioning on Tuesday as we press on with looking at the
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Dr. Davis sermon here on the dividing line we'll see you then God bless been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.
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Box 37106 Phoenix Arizona 85069 you can also find us on the worldwide web at aomin .org
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that's a o m i n dot o r g where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next