Rick Warren Lies About Charles Spurgeon

Justin Peters

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00:05

Welcome to the program ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today.

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I want to thank you so much for joining me for this podcast Well a couple of days ago as of this recording

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Rick Warren made a lot of news in the evangelical world When he announced that he had been appointed as Chancellor of Spurgeon's College Spurgeon's College was founded by Charles Spurgeon back in the late 1800s and this raised a lot of eyebrows because Rick Warren is famously or infamously depending upon your point of view a full -blown

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Egalitarian in other words, he believes that women are permitted not only to preach but even to serve as pastors of Local churches and some people were scratching their heads wondering

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Well, how is it that he is Chancellor of Spurgeon's College when Charles Spurgeon?

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Was not egalitarian he was complementarian and I did not believe that women could serve as pastors

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But Rick Warren came out and he assured everybody said oh, no Spurgeon's College has informed me that my theology on female preachers and pastors is

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Exactly the same as that of Charles Spurgeon Well, I was a bit dubious about this

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But I wanted to reach out to a friend of mine and An esteemed scholar.

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His name is. Dr. Ed Romine Ed has been a preacher since 2007

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Ed holds a bachelor's in music from Henderson State University a master of divinity and biblical languages and a master of theology from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary as Well as a master of theology and a

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PhD from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary he currently serves as the pastor of education and evangelism at First Baptist Church of Provo, Utah and Ed recently wrote his doctoral dissertation on Charles Spurgeon So I knew he would be able to help us get to the bottom of this and answer the question

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Is Rick Warren's theology completely commensurate with the theology of Charles Haddon Spurgeon as a female preachers as Rick Warren claims that it is so Ed is not only a capable

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Scholar, he is a very capable preacher. He handles the text of Scripture very well and Ed and I share something else in common.

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Not only are we both preachers, but we both have cerebral palsy And Ed one of the things

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I really appreciate about Ed is he does not make his Handicap the center point of his ministry

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He's committed to preaching but he doesn't let his handicaps stop him He gets out he preaches not only behind the pulpit

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But he gets out on the street and he open -air preaches and has a tremendous heart for evangelism

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Supposed to be Was put upon All of God's people

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All of God's people he drank it all For them and not only did he die

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Shedding every bit of his blood for his people. The Bible says that he also rose again on their behalf forever defeating death

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From the grave and Ed is just a great great guy. I first met

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Ed. I think oh back in 2010 Or so 2010 2011.

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He's so we've been friends now for over a decade It's just a great great guy And so I'm thrilled to have him on the program and he's going to help us wade through these waters

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Is Rick Warren being truthful with us when he says that his theology and that of Charles Spurgeon is

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Exactly the same as it relates to women behind the pulpit. All right, dear ones I have a number of links down below in the description and Ways that you can get in touch with Ed and If after watching this interview if if you feel so inclined would like to help

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Ed in Some of his ministerial endeavors in a tangible way. Those links will be available to you and you can do that But all right.

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Thank you so much dear ones Without any further delay. Here's my interview with dr.

04:47

Ed Romine well Ed brother. Thank you so much for joining me today giving us your time.

04:53

How are you? I'm doing well Dear brother. It's a it's a joy to be on here with you and to be able to just Do more fellowship this time in a public way, you know, we talk it seems like multiple times a year

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Right. And so now we're we're just essentially letting in other people on Conversations that we have all the time

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There you go. That's right. Yes Well, I've been wanting to have you on my youtube channel for some time now and just had so many irons in the fire

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But I'm glad we have this opportunity The first question I want to ask you

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Ed and you don't know I'm about to ask you this but you sent me in my Email, I asked for a little bio sketch even though I know you but I wanted all the particulars

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One of the items in your bio sketch Says that you enjoy drinking third wave coffee with church members now

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Third wave that's a that's a charisma. You are you are you gonna start speaking in tongues in this program or what?

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If I speak in Spanish to you, I'll be speaking in tongues to you So that's the that's the only other language that I know really well

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I've studied Haitian Creole and I'm currently studying Japanese and You know

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Japanese to the untrained ear could sound like Pentecostal tongues until you get to know it, but then you realize it's an actual language

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Yeah real parts of speech And it's it's not like the charismatic

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Practice where you can't Understand anything. There's no discernible parts of speech, but I Love languages, but I've never spoken in Pentecostal charismatic tongues.

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That's good to your Question about third wave coffee.

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It has nothing to do with theology But it has everything to do with how you roast the beans

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Prepare the beans where you get the beans from so it's basically well prepared coffee and The only reason why no one like it.

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It's Pastor Brendan Scoggins fault here first Baptist Provo.

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He is a supreme coffee snob that is still very lovable and He is

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He is just a joy, but but he's converted me. So now when

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I drink coffee, that's not third wave I have to put heavy whipping cream in it

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Okay Good third wave coffee. It's the only type of coffee all drink black.

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So, okay Well, I was I was a little concerned when I read that third wave coffee I thought I was gonna have to put you in my seminar clouds without water.

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So that's that's good Hey, I'd say I'd sit in on that seminar anyway, so That's not punishment for me

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Okay, brother, well you have recently completed your

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PhD Your dissertation is entitled the booming baritone bell of England The pedagogy and practice of Charles Haddon Spurgeon's open -air preaching

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So you are an expert on Charles Spurgeon and I guess I must ask you to Pedagogy that's not a word we use every day.

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So what what is pedagogy? Yeah, so that simply means the art of how to teach

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So so the meat of my dissertation essentially goes over Spurgeon's Teaching to others the art of open -air preaching and then the practice more obviously has to do with Spurgeon's own

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Use of open -air preaching in his own ministry. So the fact that he did it so the pedagogy of Spurgeon's open -air preaching

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Primarily, although not completely but primarily comes from two lectures that he gave from volume two of lectures to my students

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Lectures to my students was originally four volumes most you buy now they put it in one giant volume, but technically volume two

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He's got two lectures on open -air preaching. The first lecture is entitled open -air preaching a sketch of its history and That is what it sounds like he goes

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Really all the way back to Old Testament times showed how the the

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Old Testament preachers open -air preached Even in their prophesying to those who would not hear so like for example the easiest

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One to talk about would be Jeremiah. He was considered the weeping prophet

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Nobody really liked him and he had a lot of tough things to say

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That were the words of Yahweh, but he did that Primarily in the open air and then if you look at New Testament books,

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I believe this is Galatians the top of my head Paul says that Noah was a preacher of Righteousness, but we don't actually see recorded when no

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Noah preach We just know that he built the ark, but we know from Paul's words that Noah was a preacher

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So Spurgeon makes the assumption. He probably preached in the open air so Spurgeon starts out in the

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Old Testament and then he goes into the new and of course he shows how

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Jesus himself and Mark 115 Preached along the seashore, which is still in the open air

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Repent the kingdom of heaven is at hand and so and he shows how the

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Apostles open their preach you see it throughout the book of Acts and then he goes into early church history

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Pre -reformational medieval history there were friars who according to Spurgeon opened their

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Preached and were kind of the fuel that flamed the Reformation and then of course

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Spurgeon says that the Reformation itself was on the backs of open -air preachers that Luther and Cranmer and the

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English Reformation and and Zwingli with a Swiss Reformation those guys were the figureheads but Spurgeon argues

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That there was also a resourcement of open -air preaching Calling back from apostolic and medieval days that angered the

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Catholic Church and fueled the Reformation Yeah, okay, sir, and then he races, you know passed the

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Reformation the 1600s the 1700s all the way up to his current day with himself in the 19th century the 1800s

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Yeah, so that's essentially What I looked at was analyzing those lectures for the pedagogy

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I went back and supplied footnotes looking at all the original documentation from from Spurgeon and going back to see the sources that he pulled from Put footnotes to a lot of things he said which took a lot of time, but I'm a dork

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So it was enjoyable and just really updating his scholarship.

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So it'll be easier for Others who want to build on the back of my research or use my research for their own topic

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All right, good deal. Yeah Yeah, and then of course, there's also the practice as well

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Which which Spurgeon was a definite practitioner of that. There's three sermons

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Recorded in the big 63 volume set There was one that's currently been lost the time that we know existed

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But nobody can find it and I also went through and analyzed those sermons and I showed how

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Open -air preaching was the impetus for why? Spurgeon was such a herald of the cross

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So that's my thesis essentially Okay, yeah good stuff good stuff, all right well, you are well -versed in the subject matter at hand and and what brings us to this point it is is a the recent appointment of Rick Warren as the chancellor of Spurgeon's College and I do want to make the distinction between Spurgeon's College and Spurgeon College Those are two different things, right?

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Correct. Correct. So Spurgeon College is the undergraduate arm of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, which is in Kansas City, Missouri I'm actually teach online for them and and The school's been a blessing to me that they pray for my work out here

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Every time I go back people were asking if I'm Mormon yet You know just in good fun and Got a lot of wonderful connections there, but they're

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Extremely more conservative than Spurgeon's College. Yes Spurgeon's College.

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So Yeah, and that was actually a college that Rick Rick Warren Charles Spurgeon started but under a different name, right?

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Correct Yeah, it was originally the pastor's college and and the the way it's spelled is very significant, so it's

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T -A -S -T -O -R -S apostrophe which is kind of like a theological comma as some people have called it because it wasn't pastor's college as In Spurgeon thought he owned it but he put the comma after the

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S to show that this college is really the Students and if it were not for the students who are already in ministry

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Then then this college wouldn't exist. Yeah well, so when we're dealing with Spurgeon versus Spurgeon's College as well as the pastor's college where you put that apostrophe

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Makes all the difference, doesn't it? Correct. Well, let me all right. So what brings us to this point

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Ed Brief sketch here. So back in 2021 Rick Warren caused a big theological and ecclesiastical brouhaha when he ordained three women as pastors at his church

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Saddleback Church that up until recently he was he served as a pastor of and of course

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Rick Saddleback Church is one of the flagship churches of the Southern Baptist Convention Which has always been against women serving as pastors and there's nothing against women

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Of course, that's what Scripture teaches. And so that's why the SPC has held to that but he ordained three women as pastors at Saddleback Church then the following summer summer of 2022 he announced his replacement.

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He was retiring from Pastor of Saddleback and his replacement is a guy named

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Andy Wood and Andy Wood as well as his wife Stacey Wood.

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They are currently both both serving as pastors of Saddleback Church Right.

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And so this is clearly Egalitarian it's a abandoning

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Complementarian view which is the biblical view of men and women the roles of men and women and then just a few days ago as of This recording we're recording this.

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What is today? May 19th 2023 so just a couple of days ago

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May 17th 2023 Rick Warren announced that he had been named by Spurgeon's College as that institution's first Chancellor and he was very proud about this

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Rick Warren quoting from his Twitter feed here says Charles Spurgeon personally led my great -grandfather to Christ Mentored him at Spurgeon's College then sent him to America to plant churches now where four generations of Southern Baptist pastors

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I inherited Spurgeon's lectern this portrait many items letters and sermon notes and there was

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Pretty quickly some discussion pretty pretty enthusiastic discussion about Rick Warren's view of Women serving as pastors and preachers, which he has no problem with obviously correct and how that deviates from What Charles Spurgeon believed his theology on female pastors or in women in ministries general in general?

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But he said in he said this to try to defend himself He said quote the 167 year old

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Spurgeon's College in London Inducted me as their Chancellor telling me that my views on ordination are identical to Spurgeon's so I Am reached out to you to employ your expertise here is

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Walk us through some of this Ed. Is this true? Does does if you were to line up Charles Spurgeon's view of Women in ministry in their proper roles

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And put that side -by -side Rick Warren's views. Are they indeed?

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identical nope We can shock the podcast now. So okay.

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Thank you very much. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So I mean Essentially, it's that easy and I don't say that With any sort of malice or arrogance even people who are not

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Christians I wanted to take up Spurgeon Spurgeonic study because they're fascinated by him

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Just in his manhood what he thought and taught even a secular scholar who would be a

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Historian would have to say yeah that that that can't be correct

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Right and Nest and somebody say

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But I I'm being mean let me read a very direct quote here

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All my Spurgeon quotes are long. So I want you dear listeners to pay attention

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Really well because I Wanted longer quotes to get

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Spurgeon in context So here is the first one that that is very very direct any

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Christian has a right to disseminate the gospel who has the ability to do so and More he not only has the right but it is his duty

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So to do as long as he lives The propagation of the gospel is left not to a few but to all the disciples of the

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Lord Jesus Christ according to the measure of grace entrusted to him by the

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Holy Spirit Each man is bound to minister in his day and generation both to the church and among unbelievers

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Indeed this question goes beyond Men and even includes the whole of the other sex

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Whether believers or male or female they are all bound When enabled by divine grace to exert themselves to the utmost to extend the knowledge of the

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Lord Jesus Christ our service, however Need not take the particular form of preaching

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Certainly in some cases it must not as for instance in the case of females

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Who's listen to this whose public teaching is? expressly prohibited and he signs 1st

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Timothy 2 12 and 1st Corinthians 1434 there and and if I may say dear brother,

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I have a sense of what I think Rick Warren means when he tries to say oh my my way of thinking about this is identical to Spurgeon's But if if you really look at it, he's not saying exactly the same thing

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Spurgeon's not He said he says that the public teaching ministry is expressly prohibited

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Let me give you another quote here if I may Remember that When you have told out the story of the cross to men

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You are rid of one responsibility at any rate if they perish it will not be because they did not know and They perish through ignorance

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It will not be their ignorance through your neglect and teaching them

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Now the night I wish to stir up everyone here to become a preacher

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Women and all that's very important So as saying tonight, I wish

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I could stir up everyone here to become a preacher Women and all but look what he says next

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Not that I care much for women preaching But I want them to preach in the sense in which

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I have laid the matter down That is to make known to somebody the wondrous story of the cross

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Speak to an individual if you can if you cannot do that, right? If you cannot write send a sermon or give a tract

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Only do keep on making Christ known. I Suppose that there are two or three thousand believers here tonight out of these six thousand people if Every one of you

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Christians would every day make Christ known to somebody What a missionary organization we should be

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How can they hear without a preacher? now let every one of you become in the sense in which the text means a

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Preacher by telling out in some form or other and making known in some way or other the wondrous doctrine of salvation by faith in Christ so Spurgeon is very clear to differentiate his complimentary and conviction of Women should not be pastors in any sense of the word that he would say

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That goes against Scripture Where Spurgeon did kind of enlarge the definition of preacher is that he?

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considered anybody who was evangelizing a preacher in that sense

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So I bet I bet you Rick Warren is is taking a passage like that He's probably read before and he's saying oh women can be pastors

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But Spurgeon is very clear to say that the office of pastor and the public preaching ministry is prohibited but women can and should

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Evangelize so so to be fair to Spurgeon. I don't think Rick is

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I think he's twisting Spurgeon's words for his own agenda there.

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Does that make sense? Yeah, it does and it seems like there's even I mean, there's no doubt there's no there's not even any question that Rick Warren is twisting

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Spurgeon's words and twisting his intent so Spurgeon was was clearly against Women serving as pastors women serving as elders.

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He was against women preaching in the Gathering of the corporate body the local the church correct

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Sunday morning Charles Spurgeon Would have never allowed a woman to take the pulpit on a

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Sunday morning for local church, right? Correct, correct but that was always a man that that took the

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Sunday morning and Sunday night Wednesday night Thursday night pulpit

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Preaching hours, and I will say Within some of the circles

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I've ran in is that There's been some debate about like should

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Women open their preacher not Justin. I both know godly brothers who would give a pass on that and Oftentimes what they do is they make a distinction between evangelism and preaching

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What which which Spurgeon? Doesn't in one sense he calls evangelism preaching

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But at the same time if you look at his open -air preaching and his and his teaching to his students

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This is a tacit argument. It's not argument from silence But in his lectures women open -air preaching never crosses mind.

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He always thinks it's a man I don't even think I talk about that in my dissertation just because it's so tacit, so but If Spurgeon were alive today,

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I feel very confident He would disagree with like a lady

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Getting up and you know standing out in the crowd of people even in the world

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And lifting up her voice to preach. I mean, I'm open to being wrong on that But but I think he would view the open -air ministry as an extension of pastoral ministry

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Right. He never explicitly says that to be fair But but that's not my deduction there if I make sense and it seems like an inescapable

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Deduction like something obvious you don't have to mention them Like I you know, I don't have to tell people the

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Sun's gonna come up in the East tomorrow morning because it's right We all know it is so it's one of those things.

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It's so obvious. He never even had a reason to mention it Yes, and unless and unless somebody

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Thinks well the quotes I I've read aren't strong enough or Explicit enough.

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Let me read one more that I think will nail this down for everybody.

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Okay So He is talking about Peter's wife's mother in this sermon.

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Yeah Notice that what this good woman did was very appropriate

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Peter's wife's mother and this is why I make my assumption Peters wife's mother did not get out of her bed and go down the street and deliver an address to an assembled

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Multitude sounds like street preaching to me. Uh -huh Women are best when they are quiet,

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I Mean that's pretty strong. That's not very politically. Correct, correct But I mean he said it so women are best when they're quiet.

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I Share the Apostle Paul's feelings when he bade women to be silent in the assembly

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Yet there is work for holy women That's a beautiful yet yet.

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There's work for holy Women and we read of Peter's wife's mother that she arose and ministered to Christ She did what she could and what she should

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She arose and ministered to him Some people can do nothing that they are allowed to do but waste their energies

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And the lamenting that they are not called to do other people's work Blessed are they who do what they should do

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It is better to be a good housewife or nurse or domestic

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Servant than to be a powerless preacher or graceless talker Amen, amen

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Yeah So Spurgeon had as we all should as the Bible does Spurgeon had a very high view of women.

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He affirmed that women Can and should serve in the church, but within their proper

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God -ordained roles not outside of the role their roles. Correct, correct and when it comes to Women not being qualified Just by nature of what what they are people

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People just get so upset For that in today's culture, but I'll tell you when when you asked me to do research on this topic

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Spurgeon doesn't talk about this all that much. I mean you you have the

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Salvation Army Organization that you know, let women preach in pulpits and in the open air

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But other than that, I mean Spurgeon lived in a culture in which

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He didn't have to think about that much people in the 19th century, Victoria in England Yeah, you'd womanhood in a more biblical and proper way

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Yeah, all the scholars from Christian scholars all the way to You know liberal scholars acknowledge that part of history like women

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Were not viewed in the same way. They are now egalitarian terms

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Being equal in every sense possible Does it does that make good sense when

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I'm saying so? Yes for Spurgeon He he never really mentioned this much unless it came up in the text because it wasn't as much of a hot -button issue when women women preaching would have been

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Considered odd amongst the larger Victorian culture from from everything that I've I've studied and know

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So yeah something that's just not an issue Obviously you wouldn't raise it very often

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I mean if it's if it's not an issue if it's something that's just not happening Which it really didn't back then in Victorian England, you know

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There's really not much need to to make mention of it on a great basis But very different very different day and age in which we're living today in fact that really changed

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Ed with not to go off on another topic, but that that really changed with the advent of the

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Pentecostal Slash charismatic movement right here in the States and then you have the rise of Women like Amy simple

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McPherson and Catherine Kuhlman and of course women in the charismatic movement preach as much as men do but right

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So but back in Spurgeon's day in the 1800s just wasn't really a thing right

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Not to the same degree that that it is now right nowhere near for sure

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We're near so like I said, you didn't have this Salvation Army you did have like the

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Society of Friends the Quakers, but I mean, yeah, they were Not mainstream, right?

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Yeah, they were fringe very free, right, right, right and and One thing else

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I think is so helpful in this discussions it's just to talk about the the nature of Preaching itself and Preaching is something that Spurgeon would would oftentimes say it's not it's not child's play and and to take it very seriously and Every time he said that he was always talking to me and he was talking to his pastors college students like you

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Need to take this very very seriously So all of whom were men by the way all of the correct pastors

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Correct they were they were all men and and Spurgeon What was?

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More Ecumenical especially in this earth or in its later days and then a lot of people tend to think of him as And I found a quote that was actually alerted to me by a dear friend

35:49

At Midwestern he's doing this PhD on Spurgeon and he's talking about What it is to preach and It's very shocking

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When you when you hear this quote But but I think it's helpful because it shows the high supremacy and value

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Spurgeon put on preaching so We don't know exactly when he wrote this in his autobiography, but it's found in volume 2

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And and this is gonna this is gonna shock you brother It did me when I first heard it, but I think you're really gonna like the quote overall

36:32

Okay, so Spurgeon is in Brussels and he says

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In Brussels, I heard a good sermon in a Romanist church

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The place was crowded with people many of them standing though they might have had a seat for a half penny or a farthing and I stood to and The good priest for I believe he is a good man

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Preach the Lord Jesus with all his might He spoke of the love of Christ so that I a very poor hand at the

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French language could fully understand him and my heart kept beating within me as he told of the beauties of Christ and the

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Preciousness of his blood and of his power to save the chief of sinners

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He did not say justification by faith But he did say efficacy of the blood

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Which comes to very much the same thing He did not tell us we were saved by grace and not by our works

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But he did say that all the works of men were less than nothing When brought into competition with the blood of Christ and that the blood of Jesus alone could save through there were objectionable senses and Naturally there must be in a discourse delivered under such circumstances

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But I've but I could have gone to the preacher and have said to him

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Brother, you have spoken the truth and if I'd been handling the text

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I must have treated it in the same way that he did if I could have done it as well

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I was pleased to find my own opinion verified in his case for there are even in the apostate church

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Some who cleave unto the Lord some sparks of heavenly fire that flicker amidst the rubbish of old superstition

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Some lights that are not blown out Even by the strong wind of potpourri

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But still cast a feeble gleam across the water sufficient to guide the soul to the rock

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Jesus Christ And I bring that up to say That if Spurgeon could say that about a

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Roman Catholic priest when when in our day we have

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The what used to be known as the pastor's college doubt doubting

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Basic biblical truths and going headlong into heresy,

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I mean, I mean that tells you Something about how how much Spurgeon would be rolling over in his grave if he knew because because he he was

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He was certainly happy to welcome anybody even the Catholic that he thought was truly preaching the gospel

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But he he would be crying tears in heaven if he knew just how apostate

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Spurgeon's college Has become and is becoming He would be rolling over in his proverbial grave correct, correct, and so I say all that to say it's like Spurgeon rejoiced in anybody that preached the gospel but I do not think

40:14

He could rejoice in the direction of what's now known as Spurgeon's college

40:21

Yeah, no and it and it's If Rick Warren doesn't know this about Spurgeon and then shame on him for not doing his research

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But it's just it's just I don't even know. I mean Spurgeon is such a Such a studied man so much has been written about him and your contribution your thesis is

40:42

Welcome addition to that body of research It's just incomprehensible to me that he he didn't know this about Spurgeon.

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And so it brings up questions of his character and integrity because I don't see how you get around the

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Conclusion he just lied right right, right and He he either lied or is ignorant and there's no excuse for ignorance

41:10

No, not at this not when it not when a 10 -second Google search can prove what you're saying is wrong

41:17

Right, right and to be fair So a couple of these quotes

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I've gotten out of a wonderful article by Jeff Chang and Alex de

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Prima who are two other Spurgeon scholars that they wrote for nine marks and in the nine marks website

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And I will send you the link to that so you can put it in the show notes

41:45

But but just to be fair, I just wanted to say some of these quotes lifted from them

41:53

And I verified them that that Spurgeon actually said all these so so nobody's plagiarized

42:01

Anything but but really what what you see in that quote you see a theology of preaching

42:10

That Spurgeon is rejoicing in and he says in that quote just to say again he talked about the preciousness of the blood of Christ and he talked about the efficacy of the atonement as he's remembering this

42:32

Preacher and that's our goal as preachers is we want to as Peter says proclaim his excellencies and When when you look and I would say the vast majority of Women preachers many of them

42:56

Do not proclaim Christ excellences. Anyway They've got far too many problems

43:02

But even for the sliver out there that that do in mind I would still say dear sister

43:10

You are walking in and rebellion to God's explicit word

43:16

And Spurgeon would say the same thing yeah, and It's not that we are saying that there's no

43:26

Scenario in which that woman could ever proclaim the excellencies of Christ in the context of evangelism and even in the context of one -on -one mentoring and Sunday school opportunities in the in the 1800s the

43:49

Sunday schools were Primarily for children.

43:55

In fact, that's how they started out was to teach children, right and There was one

44:03

Specific. Let me see if I can get to air one specific Sunday school teacher that Spurgeon Absolutely loved and her name.

44:13

I'm probably gonna butcher this Lavinia Bartlett And look at what

44:19

Spurgeon says about Lavinia Bartlett She was a Sunday school teacher for years and years and years at the

44:25

Met tab He says Lavinia Bartlett's Unstaggering reliance upon the

44:34

Savior has led many of you and he's talking to his congregation Has led many of you to confide in him

44:42

You saw how she believed you saw the joy of what your faith brought her

44:48

The calm rest and power which she obtained and you were led to Jesus Christ perhaps unconsciously to yourselves

44:57

Very much through her example. She was a thorough and complete believer

45:04

Downright in her convictions and rooted in her principles. She was immersed in the

45:09

Lord Jesus What a worker she was Nobody will ever know until the books are opened at the last day how much she did

45:20

I Do not believe that any mother in this place knows her children much better than she knew the members of this

45:29

Sunday school class Her heart was large and her efforts incessant

45:36

Yeah, yeah Spurgeon clearly as we should all valued women serving in the church

45:46

Just serving within their proper roles and in teaching teaching children would yep.

45:52

Certainly be appropriate but not once those are Not once those boy children get older and move into their right years and you it's just not appropriate

46:03

It's not biblical and right, right And Perla like as far as evangelism, and I think

46:10

I'm pretty sure I speak for you and me both you know, I would have no problem at all with a woman you know if she gets into a conversation with You know some guy somewhere out and about you know,

46:24

I don't know Bus or whatever if an opportunity comes up where she can present the gospel or give the man a track

46:32

Now that having been said I wouldn't encourage women to go out and do that on their own because there's

46:38

Among other things or safety issues there, right? But you know, I like it. Here's what I'm getting at an axe chapter 18 situation an

46:45

Aquila Priscilla Situation, you know that be entirely appropriate

46:51

Kathy and I We've had people couples over to our house before on a number of occasions to have dinner and we'll sit around We'll talk about the gospel

47:01

If they're not converted, we'll evangelize them, you know, and and Kathy will participate in those conversations those discussions

47:08

But we're not You know, we're in our home. We're not right at church on Sunday morning.

47:14

She's not behind the pulpit Right, that's right there there is one quote just to be very

47:23

Thorough with Spurgeon's own thoughts on this that that You may disagree with brother,

47:32

I'm I'm actually Undecided on a situation like this. So so I would love to hear your thoughts

47:39

So and this is exactly what we do together on the phone all the time

47:44

So just bounce stuff off of you. So this time we're doing doing it in public

47:50

So to give you a little bit of background when Spurgeon Was 15 years old

47:57

He had come into a contact with with an older lady

48:04

Older as I think like 60s ish I could be wrong on that named

48:10

Mary King and Mary King actually taught him Calvinistic doctrine and and a lot of theology and and this is what he says.

48:22

I find it really interesting Mary King was a good old soul and lacked something very sweet indeed

48:31

Good strong Calvinistic doctrine many a time

48:37

We have gone over the covenant of grace together and talked to the personal election of the

48:43

Saints their union in Christ their final perseverance and what vital

48:49

Godliness meant and I do believe I learned more from her than I should have learned from any six doctors of divinity of the sort we have nowadays and and if you know

49:02

Spurgeon he's Jabbing in the eyeball the the the theologians of the established

49:09

Church the Church of England So so he's making a jab at them saying like like like you big dummies don't know scripture learn more from this old woman that nobody's ever heard of and She knew theology better than you guys so so Spurgeon because of Mary King's influence wouldn't have even been against Like a one -on -one mentoring situation and something like that With the age difference.

49:43

So why they really would have been like a mom or probably more like a grandma teaching teaching a son type person so so just to be fair to Spurgeon there there is that in his ministry upbringing and influence as well, but but again what we're not saying is that Mary King got up in a pulpit and preached and taught men in in a situation where she had

50:18

Scriptural authority or could have had scriptural authority rather what what we're

50:23

Saying is that she very humbly took this young boy aside and taught him what the

50:30

Lord had taught her Which is not the same thing as like what

50:36

Spurgeon's College is doing nowadays by giving Essentially Spurgeon's seal of approval on ministry.

50:44

He could not have approved Does that make sense to your brother? Yep, it does. Yeah so I mean

50:54

I'm a little uneasy with the Mary King thing just personally, but but yeah, it's still not

51:02

Well, like Rick Warren and Spurgeon's College is making it out to be now.

51:09

Yeah, I agree Yeah Yeah 15 that's you know, you're moving into young young adulthood.

51:16

They're young man, especially back, you know 150 years ago, right? Yeah a lot more quickly than they tend to do nowadays.

51:23

But yeah, I'm right. I'm with you I'm not entirely comfortable with that either. But but yeah, you're still even with that You're still light years from where Rick Warren is and Spurgeon's College is today

51:36

So, yep, yep And and if I could give another

51:43

Encouragement to women. This is a very encouraging Quote here.

51:48

This this is from a sermon I know Mother's Day is passed at the time. We're recording this but but it's so helpful and in encouragement

51:59

This is from sermon number 1 ,340 and it's called

52:06

Manoah's wife in her excellent argument and This is the scripture that it's based off of and Manoah said unto his wife

52:17

We shall surely die Because we have seen God But his wife said unto him if the

52:24

Lord were pleased to kill us He would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands

52:31

Neither would he have showed us all these things Nor would us at this time have told us such things as these and here's the quote that I lifted from that sermon,

52:46

I think I also Found this one at the nine marks article as well, and I just think it's so helpful once again

52:57

Another remark is that this is that it is a great mercy to have a

53:03

Christian companion to go to for counsel and cover Comfort whenever your soul is depressed

53:10

Manoah had married a capital wife She was the better one of the two and sound judgment.

53:18

She was the weaker vessel by nature but she was the stronger believer and Probably that was why the angel was sent to her for the angels are best pleased to speak with those who have faith and if they pick and If they have the pick of their company and the wife has more faith in the husband

53:38

They will visit the wife sooner than her spouse for they love to take

53:43

God's messages to those who will receive them with confidence She was full of faith evidently.

53:50

And so when her husband trembling said we shall surely die She did not believe in such a mistrustful inference

53:59

Moreover, though they say women cannot reason yet. Here was a woman whose arguments were logical and overwhelming

54:08

Certain it is that women's perceptions are generally far clearer than men's reasonings

54:14

They look at once into a truth while we are hunting for our spectacles.

54:19

I love that He goes on to say Their their instincts are generally as safe as our reasonings and Therefore when they have in addition a clear and logical mind they make the wisest of counselors

54:37

So I say that to say Spurgeon did not believe That that women were were ding -a -lings that never get anything, right?

54:46

You know, he didn't believe that they were ditzy stupid had nothing to Contribute but Spurgeon based his compliment carrying convictions off of what the scriptures say

55:05

And in first Timothy that that that Eve was the one who failed

55:11

Yeah, and and he based his complimentary and Complimentary and convictions off the order of the fall

55:20

Eve was the one that was primarily Deceived by by the serpent.

55:25

So yeah, so she received the the greater curse in some aspects so so with that said

55:35

Spurgeon would also Fight against The idea of of well women are just stupid and they don't know anything ever so the

55:48

That that pendulum can swing way too far the other Way and Spurgeon would say no.

55:56

No, no They they're very competent and any man that I've talked to that's married to a godly woman

56:04

Has said that certain things like this have happened to them where Where the beauty of complimentary and conviction just shines forth like a beautiful rainbow

56:16

Yeah, and so the brother and I as one of those men who is married to a very theologically astute godly woman and I am

56:27

Kathy yeah, I wouldn't know I tell you what I would Kathy is she's never been to seminary or anything like that Not even

56:34

Bible college, but I would put Kathy up against just about just about anybody theologically.

56:40

She knows her stuff She can hang with the best of them when it comes to theology and but she would be the first to tell you that a woman's place is not behind the pulpit a

56:53

Woman is not in the public Proclamation of the gospel. It's not an open -air preaching.

56:58

She does not like that You know one -on -one evangelism Preferably with other women that's you know, that's yeah, she's all over that.

57:08

I mean, she's yeah, she's good at that she's good at one -on -one discipleship discipleship, but He's not

57:15

That's that's as far as she she tows a hard line on that, right? No, rightly so but I tell you what,

57:22

I in no way consider myself to be You know Kathy superior in any in any capacity.

57:29

She's absolutely and Because she knows her stuff. She knows what the Bible says about the roles of men and women.

57:36

So right fine with that. So Absolutely, and and any dear sister that may struggle

57:45

Inwardly like oh, I oh, I wish I could preach and they wish that itch would be scratched

57:54

They don't know what they don't know what they're yeah, yeah, let me just say this You you will be much more joyful If you humbly submit to what

58:07

God's Word says Yeah, you may not feel like that now But we as Christians are not called to trust our feelings

58:18

In and of themselves because our feelings are not trustworthy Yeah, and that that is why we must sit under good

58:30

Godly sound preaching. So yeah, we've we've got to Amen.

58:36

So, um brother could I encourage any preachers that may be listening to?

58:43

The podcast with with a few quotes from Spurgeon on the seriousness of preaching Sure.

58:50

Yes, so so we we had talked about like in the

58:55

Quotation from from the from the priest that Spurgeon Rejoiced and the fact that the gospel was proclaimed even from this

59:06

Guy who's part of a corrupt apostate Church And and he goes on In other areas to say things like this.

59:16

I alluded to this. I did not read this Spurgeon is talking to his

59:24

To his Students his all -male students I should say at the at the original

59:32

Pastors College And if you don't know about lectures to my students if you never read it, you gotta read it

59:39

That that was the Friday afternoon lectures that he gave and Some of them were very intense

59:46

Some of them were light -hearted and full of funny stuff so It varied but it was always good content

59:56

I believe this quote is an excerpt from one of the lectures Listen to what he says here.

01:00:03

Oh sirs Preaching is not child's play Some person say

01:00:08

I will go here. Mr. So -and -so and they go just to amuse themselves

01:00:15

But do you think that a true minister will preach to amuse you? It isn't his business to do so.

01:00:24

Oh Believe me. It is a solemn work to stand and speak for God and in his name

01:00:31

Do you ever think what it is to preach God's Word? If at the last great day it shall be shown that we have not preached faithfully to you

01:00:41

If we have not declared the whole counsel of God You indeed must perish but your blood will be required at our hands and Then do you know what solemn work it is to hear?

01:00:56

Oh If the damned spirits in hell could come to earth

01:01:02

They would let you know what solemn work it is to hear the gospel

01:01:09

Stuff like that's why I love Charles Spurgeon. Yeah. Yeah he is

01:01:15

He is indeed one of the most quotable preachers who's ever lived and I've heard his

01:01:20

I've heard people say his vocabulary was I don't know how they measured this but his vocabulary said have been almost twice that of the average person's vocabulary

01:01:31

Yep You know, what's one of my favorite words I've ever come across and it's a it's a word from Spurgeon so lugubrious

01:01:43

Lugubrious, yes. Yeah. So have you heard that word before? I have heard that word.

01:01:49

Yes Spurgeon that I heard it. Yeah. Oh Well Spurgeon only used it like three times in this whole preaching ministry.

01:01:58

I know that because I looked it up Unless he used it somewhere else that we don't have copies of And in the 63 volume set he only said it three times

01:02:10

And I had to look this word up when I ran across it, but it means sorrowful or sad and that's right

01:02:17

Why didn't you just say sad? Everybody knows that word. I know I think

01:02:22

I may have heard it from Phil Johnson Actually, it was another he may have been quoting Spurgeon. I can't remember.

01:02:28

Maybe it was Phil Johnson But maybe we'll blame it on Phil. Yeah, we'll blame it on Phil So Yeah, go ahead no,

01:02:38

I was just before we sign off here at unless there's something else you want to address or I wanted to ask you a little bit about what you're doing and if maybe there's some pastors watching

01:02:53

Let me just say this any pastors who are watching. I've heard it preach he preaches behind the pulpit and he also preaches open -air and He definitely puts feet to his faith.

01:03:05

He's a wonderful very able very capable Expositor of Scripture. So if you are looking for someone to preach for you

01:03:13

Maybe come to a conference And and I would highly highly come into you without any reservations and So Ed, I want people to know how they can get in touch with you and maybe even if people

01:03:28

Would like to help support what you're doing how they can do that and anything else you'd like to say, right, right?

01:03:36

So As far as getting in touch with me My email is the safest way in a you know world where people like to get weird information, so So Ed Romine 90 that's ed r -o -m -i -n -e 90 the numbers ed romine 90 at gmail .com

01:04:01

and I believe I also Gave you just in my

01:04:06

Twitter which people are welcome to follow me on there I live a pretty boring

01:04:13

Twitter life. I just like encouraging other people and poking fun at my friends

01:04:19

I don't use Twitter for for a ton of Controversy, I mean people want to know what

01:04:25

I think about something they can listen to to a podcast like this Listen to my sermons.

01:04:31

I just don't really like the avenue of like only a hundred and eighty characters to say what

01:04:37

I want to say So so, you know, that's me. I know other people are different.

01:04:43

I just use it for encouragement and and for my own edification

01:04:49

I actually like looking up dog videos. So there you go something something about me yep, so so but But so that's that you can follow me on the

01:05:03

Twitter. You can I'll I also have a site page on the

01:05:09

YouTube you can look up Just if you type in my name then the word sermons

01:05:15

My own account come up and then I Preach regularly as one of the pastors of the

01:05:23

First Baptist Church of Provo Which kind of segues into the other thing you wanted me to talk about.

01:05:30

I have been for the most part here at FBC Provo since 2019

01:05:37

I Absolutely love this church I get the joy and privilege of being a member and a pastor of the

01:05:46

First Baptist Church of Provo I get the joy of serving with Russ Robinson and Brendan Scoggin and They're two good brothers say they love me.

01:06:00

I love them and we cut up We have a lot of fun, but we also know when to be serious

01:06:06

Tell younger guys, you know when you get in the ministry find you brothers like I have with Russ Robinson and Brendan Scoggin I love those men and also one of our deacons who serves as a deacon and an evangelist

01:06:25

Brother John Coward. I love doing ministry with him and To put it shortly and succinctly

01:06:34

Provo, Utah is where Brigham Young University is located A lot of people think it's in Salt Lake.

01:06:41

It's not it's in Provo and the statistics most recently

01:06:48

Say that's about 79 to 80 percent Latter -day Saint here the

01:06:54

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints more commonly known as Mormon and We don't want to do a whole nother hour on on another podcast, but to put it shortly

01:07:08

The LDS doctrine can cannot be Christian in the true historical sense

01:07:16

Then they're wrong they're wrong on who and what God is they're wrong on Justification if you have a problem with what

01:07:24

I said just there Done other podcasts elsewhere with various ministries where I go more in -depth on that But but just for quickness and time's sake

01:07:37

Then they they cannot be Christians as long as they hold to the doctrines that they hold to And and with that said with that said

01:07:50

I Love the LDS people. I love them.

01:07:55

I love them. I love them. I really do Lord willing I want to spend the rest of my life here in Provo being my primary ministry

01:08:08

Strengthening churches here in Utah number one and then evangelizing the

01:08:14

LDS number two so so so it's it's a just a joy to be able to serve as a local church pastor and and and to be involved in Evangelism and teaching and preaching and and I'm not

01:08:31

I'm not the main preaching Pastor for our church where the Brendan is

01:08:36

But I actually like that arrangement Because it allows me to go and travel and preach and teach at other

01:08:45

Churches so like next week at the time of this recording I'm actually going to be doing a full -on lecture at a

01:08:54

Spurgeon conference covering more in -depth what we started out the podcast with and Every time

01:09:02

I go somewhere to teach or preach I consider that an extension of my local church ministry here at First Baptist Provo so so it's just a joy to be able to do that and as you might imagine

01:09:20

Dear listener We don't have a ton of money being

01:09:27

Evangelical Protestant Church in the state of Utah and the way that I make my money is through Fundraising and through preaching in various churches and and God has been so good to me in order to let me do that but but my goal is to raise enough money so that I can buy a forever home out here and and so To put really practical terms on it for me is a single

01:10:05

Minister. I'm not married. It'd take about fifty to fifty five thousand dollars a year for me to live

01:10:14

Comfortably but not live high on a hog like a joy boy preacher But to be comfortably situated with a house of my own that that's my goal and Housing the average price starts out about 545 thousand

01:10:35

So, you know, it's it's pretty steep out here. Yeah, so God has been good to me.

01:10:43

I've I've never not once been without but I would like to eventually move into my own forever home out here and Quit living at the church, but the church has been

01:10:56

Good to me. I just don't want to be 80 years old and Still living in the church if I can help you live inside the church

01:11:04

You have your own like little apartment that they made for you. Correct, correct. Yeah, and and it's it's been good to me, but Long -term, it's not ideal to stay there.

01:11:17

If that makes sense. Yeah, stay here. Yeah, sure Okay All right

01:11:24

If anybody feel so led to give them your brother Justin will be able to give the

01:11:31

Instructions and the shown notes or you can email me You know,

01:11:36

I'll give you my phone number over email we can call and talk and if I could say this and if there's a pastor listening and You want to equip your people?

01:11:49

I mean Talking the Mormons. I'm both doing that because yeah

01:11:55

I love the Baptist lay people don't know how to talk to the Mormons to the

01:12:00

LDS Yeah, you know, you don't want your people to be targets for them, right?

01:12:06

and then of course as Justin said I do love the

01:12:12

Formal pulpit ministry as well and and all that good stuff. So yeah

01:12:19

Well Ed, thank you, brother thank you so much for giving us your time today your expertise on Spurgeon and helping us to understand these issues and I think it's been very helpful.

01:12:30

Thank you so much. Yes, sir. Yes, sir All right, brother. I appreciate your friendship as well.

01:12:36

Love you dear brother. Appreciate you as well. Love you too, bud. Love you, too Okay, dear ones.

01:12:42

Thank you very much for watching all of the pertinent links down below in the description right there

01:12:49

And Ed's contact information as well. So thank you very much until our next time together