The Painfully Obvious Veneration of Saints Debate Part 1

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I recently listened to Patrick Madrid speaking of our 2002 debate as a “painfully obvious” example of how “unbiblical” the arguments are against the Roman Catholic perspective on the veneration of saints. So I thought I would start working through the debate itself. It is amazing how many people will proclaim someone a “winner” of a debate without actually listening to the debate itself. In any case, we went a little long (about 12 minutes).

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The Painfully Obvious Veneration of Saints Debate Part 2

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white Probably not a whole lot of reason to pick up that phone today
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Have some stuff going on have lots and lots to play Three and a half hours worth of stuff actually, but we're not gonna do all that today
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I mean we could no one was telling us that we couldn't do this, but I haven't had lunch yet.
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So that wouldn't be a good idea eventually No, not me eating
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If I wasn't eating it'd be the background noise that you'd have to be filtering out as my stomach started to Complain notice as soon as I say don't bother calling the phone start ringing.
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Anyway, I I Was listening to I was directed to and immediately it hangs up good
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I was directed to Catholic answers live again last week and The guest of Catholic answers live and by the way, if you are not on the
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Catholic answers spam email list From having at some point registered in the forums, then you have not received your 478th email from Carl Keating begging for money
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For the Catholic answers forums. I got another one Tuesday June 17th
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Carl was up late because this was sent received at 109 a .m With the the subject this is it
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And this is my last appeal now, honestly, I've gotten at least six of these minimally
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Probably more like nine to ten. It's not that he was up so late. It was those Chinese spam servers
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That's right But it says this is my last appeal for you to become a supporter of Catholic answers forums time has run out
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But Catholic answers forums still needs more donors Just 19 more members pledging their support of $15 a month means we can continue our fruitful labors in the fields of our
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Lord And then it's a long long email. There's all sorts of pretty colorful stuff and stuff like that But man, they are just the kings of spam.
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It's it is unbelievable We just do not do that. If anyone's wondering, you know, how do you get your funding?
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well people just give to us sort of and We just let them know everyone swallowed it you need to keep doing that if they want to have us around and that's how we do it, but The same thing out
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Times over the course of two weeks or so they come in waves, you know They'll they'll take a few weeks off and then the next big thing will be you know, this next big threat type thing anyway, so I was listening to Catholic answers live because I was directed to some comments by Patrick Madrid and in answer to a particular caller
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I listened to this and I'm gonna play you this section. He Madrid is an interesting fellow.
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He's obviously an excellent speaker He knows how to manipulate the audience very well
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He knows how to use Emotional argumentation without being really obvious about it
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So he's he's a sharp guy I have some serious problems with some of the things that he's done in the past in fact,
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I'm sitting here looking at his envoy forums right now and There are in the apologetic section there are two
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Topics that are called stickies. They don't go away. They don't go down the list. They stay at the top and One of them is
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Madrid versus white debate on solo scriptura Patrick is is loves to promote the 1993 debate on solo scriptura and Then his ancient
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Baptist and other myths article wasn't his article. Somebody else wrote it But it's interesting.
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This is a sticky that he would put a sticky in this forum about one of the most
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Embarrassing in my opinion one of the most embarrassing incidents since the resurgence of Catholic apologetics in the
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United States For those who are not familiar with it. It was a hit piece on yours truly
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I've Honestly went when someone yeah when someone has to write an article in response to you where they never mention your name
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They never cite your article They never tell their audience where they can read your article.
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And in fact, their entire focus is on a footnote And when they still end up using bad sources for their argumentation after that It doesn't get any worse than that.
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It's I mean talk about complete and total Meltdown and yet that's a sticky note.
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You would need to go read this because now remember this is the same forum Where if you're typing along and you're posting a message and you say well
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I'm not sure that I accept what the Roman Catholic Church says about X Y or Z the system will edit
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What you post and take out Roman It'll only put Catholic because they are the
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Catholic Church. And if you dare put in www .aomin
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.org It replaces it with zero So just just keep an idea of what we've got going on here
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So this is just some of the background of of what we we have there and if you want to see an even lengthier discussion that goes way back to the beginning of the 1990s
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When Madrid wrote a hit piece after our debate It's all in the vintage .aomin
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.org The the articles that are found there so there's there's a little bit of history here and so I don't really do the
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In fact, I have never listened to the entirety of this debate from the time. I did it. This is 2002 So it's been six years.
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I Listened to enough of it to put up a YouTube video once, you know Just fast -forwarding through the videotape to find a particular section that I wanted to put up But but I generally don't go back and listen to all of these things
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I've listened to a few but almost always only when there has been some sort of Controversy over something that was said just to go find what the context was or things like that and I just You know,
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I don't Find It overly useful the way
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I debate is I have to trust the audience to really listen and if you're a person who is easily manipulated by You know argue arguments that are primarily based upon presentation or upon emotion or things like that Then I'm really not the person that that's going to be of a whole lot of assistance to you
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I really have to trust the audience to listen carefully for example there at one point in this in this debate
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Patrick goes Well, we don't you know, we don't have problems with with people worshiping idols today.
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How many Catholics out there worshiping statues? Now, you know on On one level that works real well
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Well, I'm not worshiping a statue But is that really a meaningful response in a debate on whether what you're doing when you're venerating a statue is actually worship or not
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No, of course not and It really doesn't you know It was a waste of time as far as the debate is concerned as far as an actual argument is concerned
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But again it you know for the people you want to keep listening to your side Then you know, that's that's how you want to argue.
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That's how you want to argue So anyway, he's answering a question on this subject and he makes reference to our debate
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And I'm gonna play his comments and as a result of hearing these Over the next number of weeks
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I was actually we weren't gonna be having any dividing lines next week But we will now since I'm not going to be going anywhere next week so we will be well into July before Anything that I can think of I've taught my head will preclude our being able to do our regular programs and who knows
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Maybe a couple times will expand out half an hour just to get some extra stuff in But I want to go through this debate and see if what
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Patrick Madrid said is True, and what did you say? Well, let's let's listen in And that's where I'm supposed to hit the start button right there
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And then the final thing is and I don't recommend that you give this to her. I recommend this for you.
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I Participated in a very spirited debate with a Protestant called James White and this man has
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Oh Gosh, I don't know Yeah, I guess the best way I could describe it is he has many different debates that he's done with with various Religious groups including
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Catholics and I debated him two times one in particular on this. Let me stop right there for a moment
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First of all notice he does not suggest that the caller give this debate to the
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Protestant I Wonder why? I'd like to make an offer right now
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If anyone knows who this caller was initially or if this caller should stumble upon this program
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We will gladly send not only the Roman Catholic caller, but the Protestant to whom she's talking a copy of this debate
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Because we'd like you to be get to see all of it In fact both of you get to see all of it sort of confident along the line
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But then you hear what he you see what was going through his mind at that point Is he got to remember back right after our debate 1993?
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He writes this hit piece in in this rock magazine after a solo scripture debate and he ascribes me as a debate junkie now remember my first debate challenges came from Catholic answers and they were the ones running around debating everybody at that time and It would never have crossed my mind to refer to them as debate junkies, but anyway and What he doesn't want to do is he doesn't want to have to admit that I've debated a lot of people
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From a lot of different perspectives, and he knows in the back of his mind a lot of Catholics Would really appreciate a lot of stuff that I've done
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They'd be standing there Watching me debate spong and Barry Lynn and John Dominic Crossan and things like that And they just have to admit man.
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Why don't why don't our people do that you know and so he's got to be very careful That's why he sort of stumbled through that well.
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He's debated a lot of religious people Okay Very subject it was in 2002 we debated the communion of Saints and it also included a section dealing with the issue of venerating
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Crucifixes and images marrying the Saints not overly accurate recollect recollection there prayers and veneration of Saints and Images is it biblical and historical is it's consistent with the
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Bible and consistent with Christian tradition, etc. Etc It wasn't just communion of Saints specifically
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But anyway, that's only a minor point that debate is available in video and audio
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Format at my website Patrick Madrid comm and I would recommend that you get that and listen to it you can download it directly to your iPod if you want it's called the great debate and I recommend it primarily because it shows so painfully obviously how
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Really unbiblical the arguments were that were raised against the Catholic Church's teaching
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I mean there were many Bible verses cited But they were in no way coherent or cohesive in terms of any type of a meaningful argument against the communion of Saints Okay, so there's the first claim is it's
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Patrick Madrid's claim. That's the presentation that I made was incoherent painfully and obviously demonstrating how unbiblical
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The arguments against his position were so keep that in mind When we listen to this debate what you're going to hear is incoherent
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Unbiblical presentation from me and that means what you're going to hear is Patrick providing just crushing biblical rebuttal of all the information regarding the the
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Hebrew language and the Greek language and Latria and Julia and where they come from and how they're used so if you're gonna you know, if you want get out a piece of paper and Write down According to Patrick Madrid in this debate.
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You will you will have it made Painfully what was the term he used? I think I think he used the term
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Painfully clear. Let's let's listen to it again because they want don't want misrepresent anybody here Painfully clear and I recommend it primarily because it shows so painfully obviously painfully on how
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Really unbiblical the arguments were that were raised against the Catholic Church's teaching
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I mean there were many Bible verses cited but they were in no way coherent or cohesive in terms of any type of a meaningful argument against the
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Communion of Saints, so No, biblical coherent cohesive argument will be presented
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Against the Catholic position in this debate. You will not find And if and if anyone me
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Specifically attempts this then Patrick Madrid is going to provide just clear painfully obvious that the term painfully obvious refutation of This the unbiblical nature of the argumentation and it presents.
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So just write those down painfully obvious Incoherent, you know, etc, etc Because that's that that's what he said
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And that shows it very very clearly very very clear The other thing is you're going to learn how to respond to those types of arguments that might seem forceful on the surface
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But in fact really don't hold any water. I now I'm a little confused because if If it was painfully obvious that my arguments run biblical then why would they look forceful on the surface?
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But I guess maybe they they they looked A Forceful on the surface, but then it became painfully obvious or painfully obviously or something
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That they were incoherent and unbiblical under Patrick's withering
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Biblical examination of the argumentation. That's the only way I could put that together But so it struck me as odd that it's painfully obviously unbiblical and incoherent
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But you also learn from Patrick how to respond To arguments that look forceful
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Maybe somebody else present the forceful arguments. It wasn't me. I'm not sure how that worked, but but write that down This will be a primer an educational tool
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For how to how to learn to do this strongly recommend it as a teaching tool for Catholics to understand
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How many many non -catholics? Misunderstand the Communion of Saints and some of the arguments that they attempt to make against it
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Against this truth and how to respond to that so that would be a third Resource that I would recommend to you again
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It's called the great debate and you can easily find it on my website Patrick Madrid calm now
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You can also find it www .aomin .org. It is the great debate seven from 2002 between myself and Patrick Madrid, so there's there's the claim and Some of you may recall that I don't know sometime last year as I recall
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Because Jimmy Akin was doing the same thing and I find it very interesting Jimmy Akin was talking about and all these
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Catholics on the Catholic answers forum about how wonderful the Bible answer man debate was and so we played it and we reminded folks of what was actually said and what the arguments actually were and what the claims really were and Didn't turn out to be quite the way that people remembered it for some odd reason and now we've got you know
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Patrick Madrid Constantly talking up his two debates, and I've just got a question if these guys are constantly embarrassing me when we debate
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Why is it so hard to get them to do more because I would think That if it is so obvious that I you know
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Just get rolled over and and made a fool of in these debates And there's many folks you can go on the
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Catholic answers forums if they still exist They don't they only got 18 supporters. They have 19, and they're not there, but if you went in there and and Asked around you'd find lots of folks.
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It would tell you and go on the Envoy forums ask Jerry Jett Jerry will tell you
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That's you know I've I've that every single debate I've ever been in I just sat there and drooled
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That's that's gonna be what's what you're gonna be told so if that's the case then
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Why don't I have a whole series of debate challenges from these well -known?
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published individuals and apologists To engage the subject all sorts of subjects.
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Why aren't we debating? You know my Calvinism my belief in predestination election, and why aren't we debating?
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Mary I mean I I would love to be debating Mary with Patrick Madrid or Tim Staples or Jimmy Akin and For some reason after that debate with Jerry Maddix on Long Island It's it's just next to impossible to get anybody to do that.
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I think Jerry's the only person we've gotten to do it twice and That was a more focused topic second time around and so it just seems odd to me
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That's that this would be the case that You know if if if these debates are such educational tools
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Then why don't we have more of them to provide them with more educational tools? I'm certainly be willing to do it, so I think it'd be great so Yes, someone in channel says
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I'd love to see me debate Mary Wasn't quite quite. We had mine there, but anyway so Skipping past all the introductory stuff in the debate which took place in 2002
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Including of course another one of the classic introductions by Chris Arnton we begin with Patrick Madrid's opening statement and so that's going to take
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Take us a good distance. We will only get into a part part of mine I may or may not break in and make some commentary
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I plan on doing that a little bit more during the cross X and the rebuttal period I Don't know how much
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I'm going to do here because obviously much of what he says here. I will respond to In the debate itself and so anyway who else is going to give
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Patrick Madrid? 25 minutes on the program to make his case and That's what we're going to do right now, so this is the opening statement from Patrick Madrid 2002
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Long Island great debate number seven on the veneration of saints and angels whether it is biblical and Historical let's listen in well greetings to all of you and my thanks to the organizers of this debate to Jim white to Arnold Pilsner and his group
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To all people who have helped put this on I I didn't realize this was the seventh of these debates in a row
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But I can tell you that after all the things that I've heard about this debate and how fierce New Yorkers are and how how strenuous these events sometimes get
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I feel as though I'm sort of the main course at a Banquet here, but I hope I taste good this evening at least.
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I hope the information that we present to you is It's palatable. I just We're in a banquet hall and so some of the stuff the jokes don't really for either of us really come off real well
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When you're just listening to it, but um I should point out. You know what debate what the debate was the year before Stravinsky's and Anybody that can listen to that debate and and not decide which side had the better of that argument
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Is really really really really biased and so maybe that's what he's referring to I'm not sure exactly where that was coming from but it was and of course two years for that were some
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Jenna's so I'm also aware that the great debate series has a well -deserved reputation
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We're bringing in only the finest and the the best debaters to this venue and since none of those people were available this year
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I'm also grateful that they were Willing to call on me as a backup Now as our moderator pointed out a few minutes ago the thesis topic the thesis topic tonight is
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And I'll just repeat it prayer to and veneration of the Saints as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them is compatible with Scripture and Christian tradition and My job tonight is to present the
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Catholic case and not just the Catholic case But the Orthodox case as well to the extent that the Orthodox will tolerate
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Me presuming to make the same case for them, but Catholics and Orthodox share the same views on this subject
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So I'm going to be doing my best to present the Information that will help you see whether or not this is not a reasonable
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Proposition I believe it is a reasonable proposition That the evidence in Scripture and the evidence in sacred tradition in fact tell us that the veneration of the
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Saints veneration of their images and asking for their intercession is compatible with Scripture and with Christian tradition and In order to do my job properly one of the things that both
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I and Jim have to do is we have to stay on Topic as we were told earlier, and so that means that we're not going to be able to veer into Tangential related issues such as Mary's perpetual virginity
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We won't have time to talk about purgatory or whether or not we should call Mary the mother of God We won't have time to talk about her immaculate conception and those are all other debates for future forums
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But tonight we have to concentrate on this very strict sense the very strict theme of whether or not it is proper for Christians to honor the
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Saints and to let me stop right there. I think I just heard him saying that those are subjects for future forums
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Now I would think in context that would mean future forums between himself and myself
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So I I would love to arrange. I think purgatory would be great
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I think Mary's immaculate conception would be great and bodily assumption would be great and Papal infallibility would be great.
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I think all those would be would be wonderful. I Think I think you'd be great again Since the two debates he's done
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Patrick makes it has made no bones about the fact that he feels that he just just wiped the floor with me
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Then I would think having another four or five As Educational tools would be great.
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I would just only ask that he would actually Refer to me as something other than the one name that only my wife uses for me.
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Thank you very much We will move on from there to invoke their intercession and to venerate icons of the
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Saints and So we're going to do our best to stay on that topic and really take a look at the evidence that serves to verify the hypothesis that's my job and then
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Jim is going to present his information his evidence that he sees as denying or falsifying this hypothesis
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And you know when I was coming out here, we drove all the way out from Columbus, Ohio my son and his friend and I came out and as I was coming out here it dawned on me that today is
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July the 11th and Here I am standing in front of you in the greater,
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New York area and The more I thought about it the more I think God is being very poetic in having this date fixed through his providence for a debate on the question of the community of Saints Because considered what was happening just a few miles from here at the
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Twin Towers on September the 11th There were many thousands of people who were losing their lives you and I all watched it on television and horror
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Some of you perhaps were even in the city at the time. You may have seen the devastation up close and One of the things that has come to my mind as I've thought and prayed and prepared for this debate is
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What we all did I'm certain as Normal human beings when we turn on the television and found out about the hijackings and the plant and the buildings falling down we prayed and I won't ask for a show of hands, but I think if we were honest and looked into our hearts
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We did pray for other people we prayed for the victims of the planes hoping that maybe somebody would survive
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We prayed for those that were trapped in the buildings We prayed for the brave firefighters and the rescue workers who went into the buildings to protect them and to save them
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But the point is we prayed we prayed for the people who lived in the area that we didn't know if they were hurt or not hurt killed or alive and really, that is a very
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Sad a very tragic, but also I think a very helpful Backdrop for us this evening because it typifies
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Very well very vividly for us what the communion of Saints means
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Now I realize that there are many things that divide us theologically here Catholics and Protestants but one thing
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I think it's safe to say is that we are all striving to love and serve Jesus Christ and Part of that desire to know love and serve him
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Involves doing what he told us to do and that is to love our neighbor and in the
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Catholic Church that Commandment to love your neighbor includes such things as clothing the naked giving drink to the thirsty etc
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But also and perhaps even more importantly it involves praying for your neighbor seeking after his spiritual well -being
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Building him up in Christ that is even more important than feeding the hungry
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Clothing the naked etc as important as those things are and so what I'd like to do is to present some biblical information we won't have time to cover a mountain of information, but let me begin with a
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Definition or two just to help us get situated first of all the Council of Trent in its 25th session in 1563 it declared that the
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Saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers for men and it is good and useful supple suppliantly to invoke them and To have recourse to their prayers aid and help for obtaining the benefits from God Through his son
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Jesus Christ our Lord who alone is Redeemer and Savior that was the Council of Trent At Vatican 2 we see something a little bit a little bit more
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Expansive Vatican 2 says in the doctrine or the document Sacra Sanctum Concilium by the hidden and kindly mystery of God's will a supernatural solidarity reigns among men a
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Consequence of this is that the sin of one person harms other people just as one person's holiness helps others in this way
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Christians believe Christian believers help each other reach their supernatural destiny the great intimacy of the union of those in heaven with Christ gives extra steadiness and holiness to the whole church and Makes a manifold contribution to the extension of her building
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Now that they are welcomed in their own country and are at home with the Lord through him with him and in him
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They intercede it unremittingly with the father on our behalf.
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That would be a very concise Statement with regard to what the Communion of Saints is all about. So now let me go through some
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Particular evidence that I think will help us see at least what the Catholic Church is saying and teaching on this subject And I'd like to present to you seven points for your consideration
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With regard to this thesis tonight about the Communion of Saints first of the seven points is that the church is
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Christ's body And I believe we could all agree on that. The church is the body of Christ. We read about that in Romans 12 first Corinthians 12
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Ephesians 2 3 & 4 We're told such things in Romans 12 verses 4 through 5 for is in one body.
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We have many parts and All and all the parts do not have the same function so we though many are one body in Christ and now listen to this last phrase and Individually parts of one another
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So there's this cohesive unity between all the members of the body of Christ. We are in Christ But we are also as st.
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Paul says here Individually parts of one another we have a share in each other's welfare We read about this also in John 17 verses 23 through 22 through 23
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Jesus says Essentially the same thing when he says May they be one as we are one speaking to the
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Father I in them and you and me That they may be brought to perfection as one and in John 15 verses 1 through 5 the
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Lord Amplifies this through his use of the metaphor of the vine and the branches you and I are branches
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Part of the body of Christ. He is the vine and interestingly Although you and I as branches have communion and fellowship with the vine itself
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Christ We also have communion and fellowship with one another so keep this in mind the church is
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Christ's body point number two Christ has only one body. He doesn't have a body on earth and another body in heaven
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It's just one body of Christ and it's an eternal perpetual United body in Christ so identifies with us that for example when when
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Saul who was persecuting the Christians in Acts chapter 9 Gets knocked off his horse Jesus confronts him.
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He doesn't say Saul Saul. Why are you persecuting my followers? He says Saul Saul. Why are you persecuting me?
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meaning that there is this intense and Mysterious connection between Christ and his body
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So if we keep that second point in mind that Christ has only one body Not one body in heaven and one body on earth
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We realize that when st. Paul says in Ephesians 2 verses 13 through 16 that Christ has made peace for us
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He has made us one He has broken down the dividing wall of hostility abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances
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That he might create in himself one new man in place of the two. This is unity
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Galatians 3 verses 27 through 28 st. Paul says for as many of you as were baptized into Christ and have put on Christ There is neither
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Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free There is neither male nor female for you all want you are all one in Christ Jesus Now we can enumerate many different examples of these passages that tell us the same thing but what this is getting us to is the question between Catholics and evangelical
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Protestants and others for that matter and that is We may be able to agree that there is one body of Christ We may be able to agree that the church is the body of Christ as we're told in those passages
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But the real question is as members of the body of Christ, is there some type of connection between Those of us who are saints here on earth and the saints who are in heaven.
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That's the real question that set before us tonight And what we have to look at now is point number three
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Which will help us address that question because that's one of those big dividing issues point number three is that death does not separate the members of the body of Christ So just as st
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Paul said those of us who were baptized into Christ are one body as he also says in Romans chapter 8 verses 35 through 39
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Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ And he lists many different things not now
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I'm going to address this later on but let me just to break in for a moment Also to help people sort of stay focused
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Separate us Separate us in in what way? Obviously death separates us in certain fashions try to have a conversation with someone who is no longer with us
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It doesn't work something has changed the person's status has changed and The text in Romans 8 does not say what
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Patrick just said it said notice what he said He said we are not separated from one another and then he quotes
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Romans 8 Which says we will not be separated from what from one another no from the love of God in Christ Jesus It actually has absolutely positively nothing to do with the use that he is making of it
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It doesn't say that we are not separated from one another the New Testament is filled with discussions of those who sleep and the fact that we grieve their passing but not as those who do not have hope and There's clearly a difference in status between those who have gone on than those who are still living
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To try to deny that I think again is one of those places where we're outside of the utilization of emotional argumentation
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You just don't really have much to say at that particular point and so this utilization of Romans 8
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I'm sorry. It doesn't say we're not separated from one another. It says we're not separated from the love of God It does not state that there is not a change in our
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Status in any brief recollect reflection will I think reveal that nakedness famine the sword peril
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Etc. He says none of these things can divide us from Christ and from his love. He says in fact, we conquer overwhelmingly through these things
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But it's not just the love of Christ that he is referring to here. He's also referring to Christ himself
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So those of us who are in the body of Christ can't be separated from either Christ himself or from any other member of the body otherwise
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Christ would not have conquered death And if you believe as I do that Jesus Christ Conquered death once and for all and destroyed death and it sting and took away any power that it has over his followers
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Then that's the real question if Christ conquered death, then the body of Christ is not separated by death
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Does not follow in any way shape or form Certainly that means death is conquered, but it does not change the reality the fact that we experience it
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I mean you could use this type of argumentation to say well Christ has conquered death. So Christians will never die Well, of course, they experience physical death
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They go to be in the presence of the Lord and there is a difference Between the person who is in the presence of the
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Lord having died upon earth and the person who has not yet died There is a difference in knowledge.
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There's a difference in means of communication. There's a difference in kind of life There's a difference in regards to sin. I mean, there's so many differences that to try to deny those differences and And just blankly say well, well, we're not separated from one another.
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Yes, we are in certain senses But to say well, but there is the great unity of the body
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Well, that does not change the reality of the difference the changes that has taken place the different status
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That is those who have died in Christ We have to consider that since death has no power to sever the bond of Christian unity the relationship between Christians Remains and as we go a little bit further tonight
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We're going to see how scripture intensifies this relationship for us when it speaks about the different duties that Christians have toward one another
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In first Corinthians, excuse me in first Corinthians 12 St. Paul says God placed the parts each one of them in the body as he intended if they were all one part
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Where would the body be? But as it is there are many parts yet one body the eye cannot say to the hand
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I do not need you nor again. Can the head say to the feet? I do not need you Now notice what is the context of all this?
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Is it saints in heaven and saints on earth? No, go look at first Corinthians chapter 12
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He's talking about divisions within the local body people who are not who are seeking after certain gifts
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They're not seeking to just serve one another there are people who say well if I don't get to do this
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I'm not really a part of the body and he's all these analogies have to do with what is going on in the local
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Assembly to extend it beyond that to some greater level which includes saints in heaven or something is again
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Well, remember plain painfully obvious What is biblical? Well again when we get into the biblical text itself
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Has that not always been? Where the Roman Catholic Church and its apologists have struggled to be able to maintain their position
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This is very important for us to remember that those who say that we should Ignore or even deny that the
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Saints in heaven the members of that one body of Christ Can and do pray for us and that we can invoke their intercession
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They are actually violating first Corinthians chapter 12 st Paul says very clearly no member of the body can say to any other member
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I do not need you now again complete misuse of the text that is totally out of its context.
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There's nothing about communication between the living and the dead and first Corinthians chapter 12 total misuse of the text and Tonight as the evidence is being presented by Jim for the opposing side
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I want you to keep first Corinthians 12 in mind if you would and ask yourself if that Argument is consistent with st.
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Paul's admonition that we need one another point number four Christians are united in charity This is you might say the point where the rubber meets the road in the
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Christian life We are called to love and serve one another Romans 15 verses 30 through 32
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I urge you brothers by the by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit to join me in the struggle by Your prayers to God on my behalf
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Second Corinthians 110 in him we have put our hope that he will also rescue us again as you help us with prayer
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Colossians 1 4 and 9 through 10 We always give thanks to God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ when we pray for you
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We do not cease praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will Through all spiritual wisdom and understanding to live in a manner worthy of the
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Lord another question We should ask is is st. Let me just stop right there. And what did all those texts have in common?
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Who is the object of prayer? Who is the only? object of prayer for a
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Christian is there ever any example of prayer to a
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Saint or an individual No, there is not and we will see Revelation does not include those
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These are all examples of prayer to God They are not prayers to Saints They are not prayers to those who've passed on they are prayer to God Important to catch that because sometimes we get the eye our eyes off the ball says that he always prays for us
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He yearns to see us and so on Does it make any sense at all given what we know from the earlier points to imagine that once st
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Paul died that those thoughts and that intention to pray for and supplicate on our behalf
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Would go out the window and that suddenly now he wouldn't be doing those things We could quote many other verses
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Galatians 6 to 1st Corinthians 10 24 1st Thessalonians 4 9 through 10 2nd
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Thessalonians 5 excuse me 1st Thessalonians 5 11 and 1st Thessalonians 5 14 through 15
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None of these texts have anything to do with the living communicating with the dead
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None of them have anything to do with the living Praying to a saint none of them have anything to do with Saints in heaven interceding for people on earth none of them not a
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Single one of them sounds real good sounds very impressive But none of them actually have anything to do with what would need to be provided to actually establish the thesis
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All of these are good examples of what is called in Theological circles a
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Standing command. This is a command that Scripture gives us to pray for to help one another
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To seek the spiritual welfare of our of our fellow members of the body of Christ There's also a standing command not to be lustful in one's thinking.
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Do you think that is something that continues on into heaven? There's a command to abstain from sin
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There's all sorts of commands We all recognize that death Changes our state so upon what basis do you say oh, but it doesn't change this and Fundamentally folks and I'm gonna
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I'm gonna point this out when I get to my point But fundamentally this goes back to what every debate with Rome goes back to Fundamentally the argument is
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Rome says so It's an argument from authority and nowhere in Scripture.
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Is this command to the members of the body of Christ rescinded? The next point point number five is that we are able to imitate the
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Saints and part of what we as Catholics and our Orthodox brothers do when we have icons is to have pictures of them to remind us of Their virtues to remind us of the sufferings that the martyrs underwent on behalf of Christ To remind us of purity and truthfulness, etc
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And as st. Paul says in Philippians 3 17 and in and Philippians 4 8 through 9
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He tells us to imitate him and he says whatever is just whatever is pure Whatever is lovely whatever is gracious if there is any excellence if there is anything worthy of praise think about these things
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Now ask yourself Among all the people that you know, who do you think is the most gracious the most pure the most honorable, etc
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If not the Saints who are in heaven in glory Except you don't know them.
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That's the problem You catch that of all the people, you know, do you you know them? Well, I know about them.
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Well, that's like saying I know Spurgeon or I know Edwards No, the when you when you ask me of all the people, you know, who's most
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God that I say Well the people who've walked with Christ Throughout their lives and have they've gone through difficulties and they've become godly examples of sanctification
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But they're still living You see where the the amount of equivocation in this debate was was pretty amazing using one word and then then use it again but you really don't mean the same thing and You just sort of hope you get away with it.
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Hebrews 12 tells us that they are the spirits of the just made perfect in righteousness So if anything is presented to us by Scripture for us to meditate upon in addition and not not to the exclusion of course but in addition to meditating upon Jesus Christ That would be the friends of Jesus Christ the
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Saints if we go a little bit further we get to some of the
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Statements that we get from the early church fathers But before we get to those we're just going to talk about one final two final points point number six
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That we are able to invoke the intercession of the Saints This is another area that divides
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Catholics and Protestants. I'm here to say I'm here as a friend I'm not your enemy, but I'm here to represent the
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Catholic teaching Which is simply that those of us on earth can pray for one another as st
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Paul said in 1st Timothy 2 verses 1 through 4 first of all brothers I ask that prayers supplications to petitions and thanksgivings be offered for everyone
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For Kings and all in authority that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life
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For this is good and pleasing to God our Savior catch that Kings and all who are in authority nothing about heavenly beings
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That we might do what? Lead a quiet quiet life. It's a in heaven
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No, the text doesn't even begin to envision that at all it is an eisegetical insertion to try to Expand it out of from the context that it obviously contains with it
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St. Paul says that when we pray for each other supplicate for one another intercede for one another and offer thanksgivings
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God is pleased by that and One question that I hope Jim will be able to answer for us tonight is how is it that suddenly when the
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Saints who can? Pray supplicate and intercede for us here on earth and that pleases God How is it that when they get to heaven and they stand before God face to face?
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They are perfected in righteousness that suddenly now that is no longer pleasing to God Or that it is no longer pleasing to God for us to ask them to pray
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Supplicate and intercede for us and notice. It's just right before First Timothy 2 5 that we read those words and in first Timothy first Timothy 2 5 we see st
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Paul reminding us for there is one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus So these saints in heaven are not somehow doing something that Jesus is is only supposed to do or they're not trying to take away
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Or rob something from Christ who is our one mediator? He's I will completely take that argument apart in in my opening statement.
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So I'm that's why I'm not stopping right here because it is rather easily dealt with from a contextual standpoint the only one that could affect a
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Union between where we are stranded in sin and where God is in all holiness He is the one mediator
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But now because we have that access through Christ we are able to pray for supplicate intercede for one another another interesting point
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Matthew 25 21 Jesus in that passage tells us that the Saints are put in charge of many things
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In heaven, they are put in charge of many things That means there must be some
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Activity in addition to praising the Lord, which is of course the primary activity But I'm going to tell you that They are put in charge of many things and one of those many things that they're in charge of is to continue
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That effort to pray for and supplicate for us. There are many passages in the Old Testament But because of time
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I don't have the ability to go into those passages by the way I would just direct you to read
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Matthew 25 21 and go. Oh, they're put in charge of being communicated with communicating with people on earth and Presenting the prayers of people on earth in heaven.
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That's that's what's in Matthew 25 21 read it for yourself It's where we see supplication and we see intercession on the part of of Old Testament figures such as Abraham or Job Perhaps in the
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Q &A period we can cover those but I'd like you to listen to the church fathers and what they say on the Subject of the value and the importance of the intercession of the
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Saints. For example, listen to st Jerome writing around the year 406 He says you say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other
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But afterwards when we have died the prayer of no person for another can be heard and this is especially clear since the martyrs
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Though they cry for vengeance for their own blood have never been able to obtain their request But if the
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Apostles and martyrs were still alive in the body while still alive in the body can pray for others
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A time when they ought to still be solicitous about themselves How much more will they do so after their crowns and victories and triumphs?
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He writes that in his work against vigilantes Augustin of Hippo says in his sermon 159
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There is an ecclesiastical discipline as the faithful know when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in the place at the altar of God where the prayer is not offered for them prayer
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However is offered for other dead who are remembered for it is wrong to pray for a martyr To whose prayers we ourselves ought to be commended
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He also says in sermon 172 for the whole church observes this practice Which was handed down by the father's that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the body and the blood of Christ when they are commemorated in their own place and Sacrifices self and the sacrifices offered also in the memory of them and on their behalf
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So we see there again Not only does st. Augustine tell us that the Saints in heaven can pray for us But also that we pray for the souls of the faithfully parted
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Catholics would refer to that as purgatory people who are there Unfortunately purgatory is not our debate theme tonight as tantalizing as that might be for both of us
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But perhaps a future opportunity will present itself st. John Damascene mentions the same thing
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We could go repeatedly through these different points But I want to just finish up with point seven and then we'll turn briefly to icons
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The last point is that we can praise and honor the Saints And when we have icons in the
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Catholic Church that is for the benefit of praising and honoring the Saints They're there to remind us of these holy men and women and they're also there to serve as memorials to their honor
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Romans 8 18 st Paul says for the sufferings of this time are not fit to be compared with the future glory that will be revealed in us
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Notice he doesn't say that this is future glory that will be revealed to us But in us in other words
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God is going to infuse us with his own glory And when we have icons and sacred images of the
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Saints the Blessed Virgin Mary That's a way to remind ourselves of that Romans chapter 13 verses 1 through 7
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We read that classic passage where we're told to give honor to whom it is due. St Paul says that we are to Let me just flip here to it
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That we are told to pay taxes To the people that we owe taxes to we're to give respect to the authorities here on earth in verse 6
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He said this is why you also pay taxes for the authorities or ministers of God Devoting themselves to this very thing pay all their dues pay taxes to whom taxes are due
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Tolls to whom toll is due respect to whom respect is due and honor to whom honor is due now
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I just have to stop right there and Make sure the music doesn't come up because I'd like to go a few I want to have some opportunity to respond to some of this probably about 10 minutes or so but I Honored to whom honor is due has something to do with icons
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Glory to be revealed in us. We need to be reminded this by icons and images
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I Know especially to people who've been raised in in the Roman Catholic Church But that might sound like it has some kind of of meaning, but I think those
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Like mr. Madrid should realize that to the the the person trained up in Scripture You're you're left going what?
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You you think that that has something to do with that that that that's what Paul was referring to Or that's a legitimate
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Insertion I'm sure you'll find all sorts of people in church history who did that You'll find all sorts of really bad exegesis in church history, and you'll find good exegesis just like you have today
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But do you really think that that's a that's a valid argument? It really for most people turns them away
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If they really know their Bible, and I ask you my friends to whom is more honor due than the friends of Jesus Christ Those who love him those who obey him those who are with him in heaven and glory
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If anyone deserves honor, it's not the justice of the peace down the road
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It's not the people you see on C -SPAN passing laws, and they do receive a certain amount of honor
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But the honor that we are justly to give to the Saints is told to us here by st. Paul So in point number seven we see that we can indeed honor the
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Saints now We see examples in the the New Testament for example of first Corinthians 11 verses 1 through 2
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Where st. Paul praises and gives honor to the Christian community that he was writing to he says be imitators of me as I am of Christ I praise you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I have handed them on to you
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So there are just an innumerable wealth of examples of how we can we can give honor and praise in a proper sense
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Not detracting from the honor and glory that we give to God alone Except none of them so far has actually been relevant to Saints in heaven
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This is always an extension. You know well You know if you can if you can say hey I'm really thankful for what you
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Corinthians didn't supporting me that somehow has something to do with honoring and venerating
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Those those in heaven, but I'd like to close this section with just a few quotes from some people that you might recognize for example
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Martin Luther in 1534 he wrote these words She referring to Mary is the lady above heaven and earth
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She must have a heart so humble that she might have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes
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Or preparing a bath for st. John the Baptist like a servant girl What humility it would surely have been more to have arranged for a golden coach pulled by 4 ,000 horses and to cry proclaim and To cry and proclaim as the carriage preceded here passes the woman who raised above the whole human race
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She was not filled with pride by this praise this immense praise No woman is like unto thee thou art more than an empress or a queen
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Blessed above all nobility and wisdom and saintliness now you Lutherans in the audience may feel your skin crawl as I'm quoting
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Martin Luther at that But just remember in the times that Luther wrote there was a certain
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Extravagant way of speaking about the Saints and he still had that very Catholic sense of offering proper veneration to Mary and the
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Saints John Calvin said it cannot be denied that God in choosing and Destining Mary to be the mother of his son granted her the highest honor
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He goes on but the point of his section there, and this is taken out of his writings
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On the question of the Saints we see that he is not saying that we can't give any honor to the
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Saints But it has to be proper honor, and that is exactly what we as Catholics believe Martin Luther in his sermon at Christmas in 1531 he said referring to Mary again.
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She is the highest woman in the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ She is nobility wisdom and holiness personified
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We can never honor her enough now. We ask ourselves. How do we honor
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Mary and the Saints? And I have to switch now to the question of icons and the question of what the early church says for us
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Now we see in the in the early 200s The early 200s.
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There's a prayer that was discovered, and this is the oldest known version of it But the prayer is called the sub to and Presidium which means we fly to your patronage, and this was found in Egypt It dates
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It's a Christian document dating from the mid 200s And here's what the Christians were writing about Mary and by extension the
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Saints at that time we fly to your patronage a holy mother Of God despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers.
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Oh glorious and blessed virgin That type of praise is something that many
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Protestants are unaccustomed to hearing but the early Christians were quite accustomed to honor Invenerating Mary and the
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Saints now listen to this And the remaining moment that we have we have many cool.
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I just real quickly. It's funny many times Matic's and others have faulted me for mentioning
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Marian dogmas as examples of Roman Catholic dogmatic Definitions, and I believe they're wrong to do so but right now
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What we're getting is a bunch of discussion about Mary it seems that well You know when it serves our purposes, that's fine to raise the issue of Mary But if you're raising the issue of Mary, and I'm uncomfortable with it
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Then somehow you've you've done something wrong from the early church some of them I'm going to have to save for the next section
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But I want to read to you a couple of them from st. Augustine in his sermon three one three He says what after all are the praises of such a great martyr?
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But the praises of God Or to whose credit is it that serpent was converted to God with his whole heart?
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But to whom the one but the one to whom it was said God of powers convert us So we don't move away from praising
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God when we praise the works of God Referring to the Saints or the battles of God in the soldiers heart
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He says so let blessed Cyprian be praised in the Lord because he has overcome these things he too certainly rejoices
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He rejoices for us not for himself When he is praised in the Lord in the
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Lord shall my soul be praised let the general here and be glad he was gentle He wishes his soul to be praised in the
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Lord let his soul be praised in the Lord Now the time is against me, so I'll have to stop now, but in the remaining sections this evening
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We're going to talk more about what the early fathers had to say on that subject, and I thank you for your patience
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Good Evening and welcome it is very good to see all of you here this evening a wonderful crowd here tonight
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It was interesting listening to all the debating taking place before we got started Even before the debaters were here to start doing the debating
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This evening's debate however is really rather simple in its fundamental thesis
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That is is the holy Inerrant preserved living word of God sufficient to define what is and This is the important part.
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What is not proper worship so that we can avoid in Any way shape or form displeasing
01:00:06
God in the matter of worship Is the Bible able in of itself to tell us?
01:00:13
How God would be worshiped and what is pleasing before God or is that pretty much an issue that man has to decide for himself
01:00:23
Is man left up to the task of determining what is right and proper worship before God Now I'm going to ask you this evening to focus in upon those two elements of the thesis first are these practices
01:00:39
Prayers to invocation of saints and angels These things are they?
01:00:45
Consistent with what the scripture teaches and are they consistent with what is called Christian tradition?
01:00:51
Which of course opens up the whole hornets nest of exactly how you define what in the world that is in the first place
01:00:57
But most importantly I would like to ask you if you have your Bibles to look at some passages
01:01:03
We've both we're both going to be throwing out some passages this evening to you Obviously, that's why we're videotaping and audiotaping so that you can go back over these things
01:01:12
But I hope you will take the time to look at what the scriptures say turn with me to Exodus chapter 20
01:01:19
This of course the place where God gives us the ten words the ten Commandments And it's not an issue really
01:01:27
The enumeration of these things every word of God is binding upon us and how you divide it up really isn't the issue this evening
01:01:36
What I would like to address this evening especially is what I believe the heart of the matter is in regards to prayers to and veneration of saints
01:01:46
Angels and images so on and so forth and that is the fact that the Roman Catholic Church says we are not giving to Creatures what is due only to God?
01:01:59
When you see the Roman Catholic bowing down before the Statue of Mary When you see the lighting of candles when you hear the offering of prayers we are told that this does not violate any commands of Scripture because we only give to God and they would also say to the
01:02:21
To the Eucharist and to images of Christ so on and so forth, but we only give to God What is due to God and the term that is used there is
01:02:31
Latria? Adoration true worship of God What we give to Saints is different.
01:02:41
It is called Julia and that is Service that is a different term and and when when the person is bowing before the statue we're praying to Mary Mary in fact receives hyper
01:02:55
Julia the highest form of Julia and only she receives that But this distinction between Latria and Julia is at the very heart of what we're talking about tonight
01:03:08
Because if that distinction is unbiblical if that distinction does not exist
01:03:15
Then everything else becomes irrelevant All the other argumentation becomes irrelevant because if Latria and Julia are in fact biblically the same thing
01:03:27
Then the excuse that is offered for offering for example prayer Prayer is an act of worship
01:03:35
How do you pray? To a saint without worshiping. Well Not all prayer is worship
01:03:41
We're told and in fact, we're just giving Julia to that particular Saint or if it's to marry hyper
01:03:47
Julia It's not Latria. We don't give that to anything. But God if that distinctions not biblical
01:03:53
Then in reality everything else is pretty much irrelevant because even if you wanted to establish that this is consistent with the entirety of Christian tradition
01:04:02
What is more important what God has said is in his inspired word or what is found in what is allegedly?
01:04:08
Defined as a tradition will discover that the historical sources are not united on these issues at all
01:04:15
So, how do we determine whether this distinction between Latria given to God alone and Julia given to Saints and hyper
01:04:23
Julia given to Mary as the mother of God is in fact biblical Well, we can look at what the scriptures say now, of course
01:04:33
Latria and Julia aren't words that existed when the Bible was first written The Bible was written in Hebrew in the
01:04:40
Old Testament a little bit of Aramaic Greek in the New Testament But Latria and Julia are Latin terms that come from two
01:04:46
Greek words The true o to worship is the verbal form and do you owe to serve?
01:04:53
That is the verbal form of that as well. And we are very
01:05:00
Blessed to have in our possession Not only the Hebrew originals of heat in the sense of the
01:05:07
Hebrew language of the Old Testament, but we also have the translation of the
01:05:12
Old Testament that the New Testament writers themselves used called the Greek Septuagint and When we look at how those that translation and how the
01:05:24
Old Testament uses words we discover that the attempt to make a distinction and Say Latria is worship.
01:05:34
You give that only to God Julia is not worship. It's reverence. It's veneration You give that only to the
01:05:40
Saints that distinction is unbiblical and Contradicted by the regular usage of those words in both the
01:05:49
Old and New Testaments and therefore I submit to you That on the issue of worship when you go to where God has defined his own worship in his own word
01:06:01
That word tells us that you are not to engage in any type of activity
01:06:07
That would be based upon that distinction that in fact to offer prayers to any creature other than God to offer veneration in the form of bowing down and worship to anyone other than God is the grievous sin of idolatry
01:06:27
That is the biblical teaching. Well, where does it teach this? Well, let's look Exodus chapter 20 verse 5 you shall not worship them or serve them for I the
01:06:37
Lord your God And I'm a jealous God Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children on the third and fourth generations of those who hate me
01:06:44
Those are not really kind or politically correct words God talks about his wrath here
01:06:51
He talks about visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations for what?
01:06:58
For violating his proper worship But the key is to look at those two terms.
01:07:05
You shall not worship them or serve them What are those words?
01:07:11
Well? in the Hebrew language shatak means to bow down and it's the first word translated their worship and Then very importantly this evening of odd Means to serve them in this passage now that term of odd is key
01:07:32
Why? Because in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which comes into the
01:07:39
New Testament in its citation In that translation that one term of odd is translated both by both the
01:07:50
Greek terms That come into the Latin Latria and Dulia The Greek Septuagint does not
01:07:59
Differentiate between those two terms in translating this one Hebrew word and we are forbidden from Avoiding to sort of mess up the
01:08:10
Hebrew language there We are forbidden to avoid Anyone other than God that includes
01:08:18
Latria and Dulia both Now in this particular passage
01:08:24
The term of odd is translated by Latrua which becomes Latria This very passage right in the
01:08:32
Ten Commandments says you will not give Latria and Roman Catholics would say yep see we don't and yet look at for example
01:08:44
Exodus 2333 if you don't have a Bible with you, I'm gonna read the passages
01:08:50
Exodus 2333 they shall not live in your land because they will make you sin against me for if you serve their gods
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It will surely be a snare to you That's a VOD as well. But guess what the
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Greek translation is do you oh, Julia? Same thing in Deuteronomy 28 64 moreover the
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Lord will scatter you among all peoples from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth and there You shall serve other gods wood and stone which you or your fathers have not known
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Is that not worship is this not describing what idolatry is all about and yet in the?
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Translation of the Bible that was used by the early church That's Julia the very distinction that the entire practice of the
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Roman Catholic Church and offering veneration to saints and angels is based upon here contradicted in That very translation the early church used judges 1010
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Then the sons of Israel cried out to the Lord saying we have sinned against you for indeed We have forsaken our
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God and served the Bales. That's Julia. Would anyone argue? That's not idolatry
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They're talking about in reality if we were to accept the
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Roman Catholic distinction between lottery and Julia This would be an excuse Lord. We didn't we didn't give lottery to the
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Bales. We only gave Julia to the Bales So we didn't really sin No That distinction doesn't exist biblically because you see folks in the
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Hebrew mindset You cannot worship him that you do not serve
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You see it's only in Western thinking that that we can come up with the idea that well you can you can honor
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Someone in the sense of of worshiping them and adoring them without serving them. No you can't not biblically
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You See true biblical worship involves both concepts together That's why the
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Greek Septuagint doesn't translate it by one particular word because the Hebrew word is richer than that and what
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God Said in the Ten Commandments you shall not do this is the whole concept of adoring and serving
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We'll go ahead and stop right there and wrap up the program today. We'll pick up at that point with my presentation in the debate with Patrick Madrid on the subject of Veneration of Saints and Angels Latria Julia We're gonna look at first Timothy to lots of stuff to continue on with on the
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Thursday edition of the dividing line coming up in Just well just a matter of hours really just you know right around the corner so Appreciate you being with us stay on the program
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We went about 11 minutes long, but we wanted to find a good place to break there So we'll continue with this on the next edition dividing line.
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See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 4602 or write us at PO box 3 7 1 0 6
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