The Painfully Obvious Veneration of Saints Debate Part 1

The Debate Over the Communion of Saints

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Probably not a whole lot of reason to pick up that phone today. Have some stuff going on have lots and lots to play. Three and a half hours worth of stuff actually, but we're not gonna do all that today.

I mean we could. No one was telling us that we couldn't do this, but I haven't had lunch yet. So that wouldn't be a good idea eventually. No, not me eating. If I wasn't eating it'd be the background noise that you'd have to be filtering out as my stomach started to.

Complain notice as soon as I say don't bother calling the phone start ringing. Anyway, I I Was listening to I was directed to and immediately it hangs up good. I was directed to Catholic answers live again last week and The guest of Catholic answers live and by the way if you are not on the Catholic answers spam email list From having at some point registered in the forums, then you have not received your 478th email from Carl Keating begging for money For the Catholic answers forums.

I got another one Tuesday June 17th. Carl was up late because this was sent received at 1 o 9 a .m. With the the subject this is it. And this is my last appeal. Now, honestly, I've gotten at least six of these minimally.

Probably more like nine to ten. It's not that he was up so late. It was those Chinese spam servers. That's right.

But it says this is my last appeal for you to become a supporter of Catholic answers forums. Time has run out. But Catholic answers forums still needs more donors. Just 19 more members pledging their support of $15 a month means we can continue our fruitful labors in the fields of our Lord.

And then it's a long long email. There's all sorts of pretty colorful stuff and stuff like that. But man, they are just the kings of spam. It's it is unbelievable. We just do not do that. If anyone's wondering, you know, how do you get your funding?

Well people just give to us sort of and We just let them know everyone swallowed it. You need to keep doing that if they want to have us around and that's how we do it, but The same thing out Times over the course of two weeks or so they come in waves, you know.

They'll they'll take a few weeks off and then the next big thing will be you know, this next big threat type thing anyway, so I was listening to Catholic answers live because I was directed to some comments by Patrick Madrid and in answer to a particular caller I listened to this and I'm gonna play you this section he Madrid is an interesting fellow.

He's obviously an excellent speaker. He knows how to manipulate the audience very well. He knows how to use Emotional argumentation without being really obvious about it. So he's he's a sharp guy. I have some serious problems with some of the things that he's done in the past.

In fact, I'm sitting here looking at his envoy forums right now and There are in the apologetic section there are two Topics that are called stickies. They don't go away. They don't go down the list. They stay at the top and One of them is Madrid versus white debate on solo scriptura.

Patrick is is loves to promote the 1993 debate on solo scriptura and Then his ancient Baptists and other myths article wasn't his article somebody else wrote it. But it's interesting. This is a sticky that he would put a sticky in this forum about one of the most Embarrassing in my opinion one of the most embarrassing incidents since the resurgence of Catholic apologetics in the United States.

For those who are not familiar with it. It was a hit piece on yours truly I've Honestly went when someone yeah when someone has to write an article in response to you where they never mention your name.

They never cite your article. They never tell their audience where they can read your article and in fact their entire focus is on a footnote. And when they still end up using bad sources for their argumentation after that.

It doesn't get any worse than that. It's I mean talk about complete and total Meltdown and yet that's a sticky note. You would need to go read this because now remember this is the same forum. Where if you're typing along and you're posting a message and you say well I'm not sure that I accept what the Roman Catholic Church says about XY or Z the system will edit What you post and take out Roman?

It'll only put Catholic because they are the Catholic Church, and if you dare put in www .aomin .org it replaces it with zero. So just just keep an idea of what we've got going on here, so this is just some of the background Of of what we we have there, and if you want to see an even lengthier discussion That goes way back to the beginning of the the 1990s When Madrid wrote a hit piece after our debate.

It's all in the vintage .aomin .org the the articles that are found there, so there's there's a little bit of history here and so I don't really do the. In fact I have never listened to the entirety of this debate from the time.

I did it. This is 2002 so it's been six years I listened to enough of it to put up a YouTube video once you know just fast-forwarding through the videotape to find a particular Section I wanted to put up, but but I generally don't go back and listen to all of these things.

I've listened to a few but almost always only when there has been some sort of Controversy over something that was said just to go find what the context was or things like that and I just you know I don't Find It overly useful the way.

I debate is I have to trust the audience to really listen and if you're a person who is easily manipulated by You know Arguments that are primarily based upon presentation or upon emotion or things like that then I'm really not the person that.

That's going to be of a whole lot of assistance to you. I really have to trust the audience to listen carefully for example there at one point in this in this debate Patrick goes Well we don't you know we don't have problems with with people worshiping idols today, how many Catholics out there worshiping statues?

Now you know on On one level that works real well. Well, I'm not worshiping a statue. But is that really a meaningful response in a debate on whether what you're doing when you're venerating a statue is actually worship or not.

No, of course not and it really doesn't you know. It was a waste of time as far as the debate is concerned as far as an actual argument is concerned. But again it you know for the people you want to keep listening to your side.

Then you know that's that's how you want to argue. That's how you want to argue. So anyway, he's answering a question on this subject. And he makes reference to our debate, and I'm gonna play his comments and as a result of hearing these Over the next number of weeks I was actually we weren't gonna be having any dividing lines next week.

But we will now since I'm not going to be going anywhere next week so we will be well into July before. Anything that I can think of I've taught my head will preclude our being able to do our regular programs.

And who knows maybe a couple times will expand out half an hour just to get some extra stuff in. But I want to go through this debate and see if what Patrick Madrid said is True, and what did he say well?

Let's let's listen in. And that's where I'm supposed to hit the start button right there.

Patrick Madrid's Claim That the Debate Was "Painfully Obvious"

And then the final thing is and I don't recommend that you give this to her. I recommend this for you. I Participated in a very spirited debate with a Protestant called James White and this man has Oh Gosh, I don't know.

Yeah, I guess the best way I could describe it is he has many different debates that he's done with with various Religious groups including Catholics, and I debated him two times one in particular on this.

Let me stop right there for a moment.

First of all notice he does not suggest that the caller give this debate to the Protestant. I Wonder why? I'd like to make an offer right now. If anyone knows who this caller was initially or if this caller should stumble upon this program.

We will gladly send not only the Roman Catholic caller, but the Protestant to whom she's talking a copy of this debate. Because we'd like you to be get to see all of it in fact both of you Get to see all of it sort of confident along with it.

But then you hear what he you see what was going through his mind at that point is you got to remember back right after our Debate 1993 he writes this hit piece in in this rock magazine after a solo scripture debate.

And he ascribes me as a debate junkie now remember my first debate challenges came from Catholic answers and they were the ones running around debating everybody at that time and It would never have crossed my mind to refer to them as debate junkies, but anyway and What he doesn't want to do is he doesn't want to have to admit that.

I've debated a lot of people. From a lot of different perspectives, and he knows in the back of his mind a lot of Catholics Would really appreciate a lot of stuff that I've done. They'd be standing there Watching me debate spong and Barry Lynn and John Dominic crossin and things like that.

And they just have to admit man. Why don't why don't our people do that you know and so he's got to be very careful. That's why he sort of stumbled through that well. He's debated a lot of religious people.

Okay. Very subject it was. In 2002 we debated the communion of saints. And it also included a section dealing with the issue of venerating Crucifixes and images marrying the Saints. Not overly accurate recollect recollection there.

Prayers and veneration of saints and Images. Is it biblical and historical. Is it's consistent with the Bible and consistent with Christian tradition, etc. Etc. It wasn't just communion of saints specifically.

But anyway, that's only a minor point that debate is available in video and audio Format at my website Patrick Madrid comm and I would recommend that you get that and listen to it. You can download it directly to your iPod if you want.

It's called the great debate and I recommend it primarily because it shows so painfully obviously how Really unbiblical the arguments were that were raised against the Catholic Church's teaching. I mean there were many Bible verses cited.

But they were in no way coherent or cohesive in terms of any type of a meaningful argument against the communion of saints.

Okay, so there's the first claim is it's Patrick Madrid's claim. That's. The presentation that I made was incoherent painfully and obviously demonstrating how unbiblical The arguments against his position were.

So keep that in mind. When we listen to this debate what you're gonna hear is incoherent Unbiblical presentation from me and that means what you're gonna hear is Patrick providing just crushing biblical rebuttal of all the information regarding the the Hebrew language And the Greek language and Latria and Dulia and where they come from and how they're used.

So if you're gonna, you know, if you want get out a piece of paper and Write down According to Patrick Madrid in this debate. You will you will have it made Painfully what was the term he used? I think I think he used the term Painfully clear.

Let's let's listen to it again because they want don't want misrepresent anybody here.

Painfully clear and I recommend it primarily because it shows so painfully obviously painfully on how Really unbiblical the arguments were that were raised against the Catholic Church's teaching. I mean there were many Bible verses cited but they were in no way coherent or cohesive in terms of Any type of a meaningful argument against the Communion of Saints?

So no biblical coherent cohesive argument will be presented Against the Catholic position in this debate. You will not find. And if and if anyone me specifically attempts this Then Patrick Madrid is going to provide just clear painfully obvious that the term painfully obvious refutation of This the unbiblical nature of the argumentation and it presents.

So just write those down painfully obvious. Incoherent, you know, etc, etc. Because that's that that's what he said.

So that week we continue on and that shows it very very clearly. Very very close. The other thing is you're going to learn how to respond to those types of arguments that might seem forceful on the surface, but in fact really don't hold any water.

I now I'm a little confused because if.

If it was painfully obvious that my arguments run biblical then why would they look forceful on the surface? But I guess maybe they they they looked A Forceful on the surface, but then it became painfully obvious or painfully obviously or something that they were incoherent and unbiblical under Patrick's withering Biblical examination of the argumentation.

That's the only way I can put that together. But so it struck me as odd that it's painfully obviously unbiblical and incoherent. But you also learn from Patrick how to respond to Arguments that look forceful.

Maybe somebody else present the forceful arguments. It wasn't me. I'm not sure how that worked, but but write that down. This will be a primer an educational tool.

For how to how to learn to do this strongly recommend it as a teaching tool for Catholics to understand How many many non-catholics Misunderstand the Communion of Saints and some of the arguments that they attempt to make against it Against this truth and how to respond to that.

So that would be a third Resource that I would recommend to you again. It's called the great debate and you can easily find it on my website Patrick Madrid. Calm now.

You can also find it www .aomin .org. It is the great debate seven From 2002 between myself and Patrick Madrid, so there's there's the claim and some of you may recall that I don't know sometime last year as I recall Because Jimmy Akin was doing the same thing.

I find it very interesting Jimmy Akin was talking about and all these Catholics and the Catholic answers forum about how wonderful the Bible answer man debate was and So we played it and we reminded folks of what was actually said and what the arguments actually were and what the claims really were and Didn't turn out to be quite the way that people remembered it for some odd reason and now we've got, you know Patrick Madrid constantly talking up his two debates and I've just got a question if these guys are Constantly embarrassing me when we debate Why is it so hard to get them to do more because I would think that if it is so obvious that I You know just get rolled over and and made a fool of in these debates and there's many folks You can go on the Catholic answers forums if they still exist.

They don't they only got 18 supporters. They have 19 and they're not there. But if you went in there and and Asked around you'd find lots of folks. It would tell you and go on the Envoy forums. Ask Jerry Jett Jerry will tell you.

That's you know, I've I've that every single debate I've ever been in I just sat there and drooled. That's that's gonna be what's what you're gonna be told. So if that's the case then Why don't I have a whole series of debate challenges from these well-known? Published individuals and apologists to engage the subject all sorts of subjects.

Why aren't we debating? You know my my Calvinism my belief in predestination election, and why aren't we debating? Mary I mean, I I would love to be debating Mary with Patrick Madrid or Tim Staples or Jimmy Akin and and Just For some reason after that debate with Jerry Maddix on Long Island It's it's just next to impossible to get anybody to do that.

I think Jerry's the only person we've gotten to do it twice and That was a more focused topic second time around and so it just seems odd to me That's that this would be the case that you know, if if these debates are such educational tools Then why don't we have more of them to provide them with more educational tools I'd certainly be willing to do it.

So I think it'd be great. So Yes, someone in channel says I'd love to see me debate Mary wasn't quite quite we had mine there, but anyway, so Skipping past all the introductory stuff in the debate which took place in 2002 including of course another one of the classic introductions by Chris Arndt and we begin with Patrick Madrid's opening statement and so that's going to take Take us a good distance.

We'll only get into a part part of mine I may or may not break in and make some commentary I plan on doing that a little bit more during the cross-ex and the rebuttal period. I Don't know how much I'm gonna do here because obviously much of what he says here.

I will respond to In the debate itself and so anyway, who else is going to give Patrick Madrid 25 minutes on the program to make his case and That's what we're gonna do right now. So this is the opening statement from Patrick Madrid 2002 Long Island great debate number seven on the veneration of saints and angels whether it is biblical and Historical let's listen in.

Patrick Madrid's Opening Statement on the Communion of Saints

Well greetings to all of you and My thanks to the organizers of this debate to Jim white to Arnold Pilsner and his group To all people who have helped put this on. I. I didn't realize this was the seventh of these debates in a row but I can tell you that after all the things that I've heard about this debate and how fierce New Yorkers are and how How strenuous these events sometimes get I feel as though I'm sort of the main course at a banquet here.

But I hope I taste good this evening at least. I hope the information that we present to you is is palatable. I just.

We're in a banquet hall and so some of the stuff the jokes don't really for either of us really come off real. Well when you're just listening to it, but I should point out. You know what debate what the debate was the year before Stravinsky's and Anybody that can listen to that debate and Not decide which side had the better of that argument is really really really really biased.

And so maybe that's what he's referring to. I'm not sure exactly Where that was coming from but it was and of course two years for that were some Jenna's so.

I'm also aware that the great debate series has a well-deserved reputation or bringing in only the finest and the the best debaters to this venue and Since none of those people were available this year.

I'm also grateful that they were willing to call on me as a backup. Now as our moderator pointed out a few minutes ago the thesis topic the thesis topic tonight is And I'll just repeat it prayer to and veneration of the Saints as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them is compatible with Scripture and Christian tradition and My job tonight is to present the Catholic case and not just the Catholic case.

But the Orthodox case as well to the extent that the Orthodox will tolerate Me presuming to make the same case for them, but Catholics and Orthodox share the same views on this subject so I'm going to be doing my best to present the Information that will help you see whether or not this is not a reasonable Proposition, I believe it is a reasonable proposition That the evidence in Scripture and the evidence in sacred tradition in fact Tell us that the veneration of the Saints veneration of their images and asking for their intercession is compatible with Scripture and with Christian tradition and in order to do my job properly one of the things that both I and Jim have to do is we have to stay on Topic as we were told earlier, and so that means that we're not going to be able to veer into Tangential related issues such as Mary's perpetual virginity.

We won't have time to talk about purgatory or whether or not we should call Mary the mother of God. We won't have time to talk about her immaculate conception and those are all other debates for future forums.

But tonight we have to concentrate on this very strict sense the very strict theme of whether or not it is proper for Christians to honor.

The Saints and to let me stop right there I think I just heard him saying that those are subjects for future forums. Now I would think in context that would mean future forums between himself and myself.

So I I would love to arrange. I think purgatory would be great. I think Mary's immaculate conception would be great and bodily assumption would be great and Papal infallibility would be great. I think all those would be would be wonderful.

I think I think you'd be great again. Since the two debates he's done Patrick makes it has made no bones about the fact that he feels that he just just wiped the floor with me. Then I would think having another four or five As educational tools would be great.

I would just only ask that he would actually Refer to me as something other than the one name that only my wife uses for me. Thank you very much.

We will move on from there to invoke their intercession and to venerate icons of the Saints and So we're going to do our best to stay on that topic and really take a look at the evidence that serves to verify the Hypothesis, that's my job and then Jim is going to present his information his evidence that he sees as denying or falsifying this hypothesis.

And you know when I was coming out here we drove all the way out from Columbus, Ohio my son and his friend and I came out and as I was coming out here it dawned on me that today is July the 11th and Here I am standing in front of you in the greater, New York area and The more I thought about it the more I think God is being very poetic in having this date Fixed through his providence for a debate on the question of the community of Saints.

Because considered what was happening just a few miles from here at the Twin Towers on September the 11th. There were many thousands of people who were losing their lives you and I all watched it on television in horror.

Some of you perhaps were even in the city at the time. You may have seen the devastation up close and One of the things that has come to my mind as I've thought and prayed and prepared for this debate is what we all did I'm certain as Normal human beings when we turn on the television and found out about the hijackings and the plant and the buildings falling down we prayed and I won't ask for a show of hands, but I think if we were honest and looked into our hearts.

We did pray for other people we prayed for the victims of the planes hoping that maybe somebody would survive. We prayed for those that were trapped in the buildings. We prayed for the brave firefighters and the rescue workers who went into the buildings to protect them and to save them.

But the point is we prayed we prayed for the people who lived in the area that we didn't know if they were hurt or not hurt killed or alive. And really, that is a very Sad a very tragic, but also I think a very helpful Backdrop for us this evening because it typifies Very well very vividly for us what the communion of Saints means.

Now I realize that there are many things that divide us theologically here Catholics and Protestants but one thing I think it's safe to say is that we are all striving to love and serve Jesus Christ and Part of that desire to know love and serve him involves doing what he told us to do and that is to love our neighbor and in the Catholic Church that Commandment to love your neighbor includes such things as clothing the naked giving drink to the thirsty etc.

But also and perhaps even more importantly it involves praying for your neighbor seeking after his spiritual well-being Building him up in Christ that is even more important than feeding the hungry Clothing the naked etc as important as those things are and so what I'd like to do is to present some biblical information we won't have time to cover a mountain of information, but let me begin with a Definition or two just to help us get situated first of all the Council of Trent in its 25th session in 1563 it declared that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers for men and it is good and useful supple suppliantly to invoke them and To have recourse to their prayers aid and help for obtaining the benefits from God Through his son Jesus Christ our Lord who alone is Redeemer and Savior that was the Council of Trent.

At Vatican 2 we see something a little bit a little bit more Expansive. Vatican 2 says in the doctrine or the document Sacra Sanctum Concilium by the hidden and kindly mystery of God's will a supernatural solidarity reigns among men.

A Consequence of this is that the sin of one person harms other people just as one person's holiness helps others. In this way Christians believe Christian believers help each other reach their supernatural destiny.

The great intimacy of the union of those in heaven with Christ gives extra steadiness and holiness to the whole church and Makes a manifold contribution to the extension of her building. Now that they are welcomed in their own country and are at home with the Lord through him with him and in him.

They intercede it unremittingly with the father on our behalf. That would be a very concise Statement with regard to what the Communion of Saints is all about. So now let me go through some Particular evidence that I think will help us see at least what the Catholic Church is saying and teaching on this subject.

And I'd like to present to you seven points for your consideration With regard to this thesis tonight about the Communion of Saints first of the seven points is that the church is Christ's body. And I believe we could all agree on that.

The church is the body of Christ. We read about that in Romans 12 1st Corinthians 12 Ephesians 2 3 4. We're told such things in Romans 12 verses 4 through 5 for is in one body. We have many parts and All and all the parts do not have the same function so we though many are one body in Christ and now listen to this last phrase and Individually parts of one another.

So there's this cohesive unity between all the members of the body of Christ. We are in Christ. But we are also as st. Paul says here Individually parts of one another we have a share in each other's welfare.

We read about this also in John 17 verses 23 through 22 through 23 Jesus says Essentially the same thing when he says May they be one as we are one speaking to the Father I in them and you and me. That they may be brought to perfection as one and in John 15 verses 1 through 5 the Lord Amplifies this through his use of the metaphor of the vine and the branches you and I are branches Part of the body of Christ.

He is the vine and interestingly Although you and I as branches have communion and fellowship with the vine itself Christ We also have communion and fellowship with one another so keep this in mind the church is Christ's body.

Point number two. Christ has only one body. He doesn't have a body on earth and another body in heaven. There's just one body of Christ and it's an eternal perpetual United body in Christ so identifies with us that for example when when Saul who was persecuting the Christians in Acts chapter 9 Gets knocked off his horse Jesus confronts him.

He doesn't say Saul Saul. Why are you persecuting my followers? He says Saul Saul. Why are you persecuting me? Meaning that there is this intense and Mysterious connection between Christ and his body.

So if we keep that second point in mind that Christ has only one body Not one body in heaven and one body on earth. We realize that when st. Paul says in Ephesians 2 verses 13 through 16 that Christ has made peace for us He has made us one.

He has broken down the dividing wall of hostility abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances. That he might create in himself one new man in place of the two. This is unity. Galatians 3 verses 27 through 28 st. Paul says for as many of you as were baptized into Christ and have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free. There is neither male nor female for you all want you are all one in Christ Jesus. Now we can enumerate many different examples of these passages that tell us the same thing.

But what this is getting us to is the question between Catholics and evangelical Protestants and others for that matter and that is We may be able to agree that there is one body of Christ. We may be able to agree that the church is the body of Christ as we're told in those passages.

But the real question is as members of the body of Christ, is there some type of connection between Those of us who are saints here on earth and the saints who are in heaven. That's the real question that set before us tonight.

And what we have to look at now is point number three Which will help us address that question because that's one of those big dividing issues. Point number three is that death does not separate the members of the body of Christ.

So just as st Paul said those of us who were baptized into Christ are one body as he also says in Romans chapter 8 verses 35 through 39. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.

I mean he lists many different things not now. I'm going to address this later on but let me just to break in for a moment. Also to help people sort of stay focused. Separate us. Separate us in in what way?

Obviously death separates us in certain fashions. Try to have a conversation with someone who is no longer with us. It doesn't work. Something has changed the person's status has changed. And. The text in Romans 8 does not say what Patrick just said.

It said notice what he said. He said we are not separated from one another. And then he quotes Romans 8. Which says we will not be separated from what. From one another. No from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

It actually has absolutely positively nothing to do with the use that he is making of it. It doesn't say that we are not separated from one another. The New Testament is filled with discussions of those who sleep and the fact that we grieve their passing but not as those who do not have hope.

And. There's clearly a difference in status between those who have gone on than those who are still living. To try to deny that I think again is one of those places where we're outside of the utilization of emotional argumentation.

You just don't really have much to say at that particular point and so this utilization of Romans 8 I'm sorry. It doesn't say we're not separated from one another. It says we're not separated from the love of God.

It does not state that there is not a change in our Status. In any brief recollect reflection will I think reveal that.

Nakedness famine the sword peril etc. He says none of these things can divide us from Christ and from his love. He says in fact we conquer overwhelmingly through these things. But it's not just the love of Christ that he is referring to here.

He's also referring to Christ himself. So those of us who are in the body of Christ can't be separated from either Christ himself or from any other member of the body. Otherwise Christ would not have conquered death.

And if you believe as I do that Jesus Christ Conquered death once and for all and destroyed death and it sting and took away any power that it has over his followers. Then that's the real question. If Christ conquered death, then the body of Christ is not separated by death.

Does not follow in any way shape or form. Certainly that means death is conquered but it does not change the reality the fact that we experience it. I mean you could use this type of argumentation to say well Christ has conquered death.

So Christians will never die. Well, of course, they experience physical death they go to be in the presence of the Lord and. There is a difference between the person who is in the presence of the Lord having died upon earth and the person who has not Yet died.

There is a difference in knowledge. There's a difference in means of communication. There's a difference in kind of life. There's a difference in regards to sin. I mean, there's so many differences that to try to deny those differences and.

And just blankedly say well, well, we're not separated from one another. Yes, we are in certain senses. But to say well, but there is the great unity of the body. Well, that does not change the reality of the difference the changes that has taken place the different status.

That is those who have died in Christ.

We have to consider that since death has no power to sever the bond of Christian unity the relationship between Christians Remains. And as we go a little bit further tonight We're going to see how scripture intensifies this relationship for us when it speaks about the different duties that Christians have toward one another.

In first Corinthians, excuse me in first Corinthians 12 St. Paul says God placed the parts each one of them in the body as he intended. If they were all one part Where would the body be? But as it is there are many parts yet one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand I do not need you nor again. Can the head say to the feet? I do not need you.