On Spiritual Combat interview with Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (Pastor Podcast)

Introduction to the Guest and the Podcast Revolution

Today on the program, I am welcoming Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, internationally recognized speaker, author, scholar, and soldier. You do not want to miss this episode. Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now.

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist, and I am very excited today to be joined by my friend and one of the men that I respect most in the world, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman.

Lieutenant Colonel Grossman is an internationally recognized scholar, author, soldier, and speaker who is one of the foremost experts in the field of human aggression and the roots of violence and violent crime.

Colonel Grossman is a former West Point psychology professor, professor of military science, and army ranger. He has testified before the U .S. Senate, congressional committees on three different occasions.

He has testified before numerous state legislatures, and he and his research have been cited in a national address by the President of the United States. More importantly, Colonel Grossman is a faithful follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He has several books, one that I'm going through right now, which is called On Spiritual Combat. It's a daily devotional, 30 missions, that mirrors his book On Combat, and he also has a book on marriage that we're going to talk about as well.

And on a personal note, several years ago, I reached out to Colonel Grossman. I told him who I was, that I was a pastor. I was also a self-defense instructor, and he welcomed me to his Bulletproof Mind seminar in Jacksonville, Florida, where he was giving it to Jacksonville Sheriff's Office, and I got to go in and sit through eight hours of training that literally changed my life.

So I was thankful for him and all that he does, and I'm thankful for you being on the program today, sir. Hello, Lieutenant.

Colonel Dave Grossman. Praise God, and thanks, Keith, and I'm grateful to you and to your audience. You know what? I always try to begin the podcast with just a minute to recognize what an amazing process is happening right here.

When I was a kid, we had three networks, one or two newspapers in each city, and maybe a half a dozen national magazines. And if you didn't get in there, your voice didn't get heard. There was this roadblock in information.

Well, the podcast revolution has exploded that roadblock. And I've been on 60 Minutes, I've been on 20 -20, and they were just a total waste of time. The three-minute soundbite, they get to choose what they say and they move on.

You know, the podcast revolution is first about people like you who want to dig deeper and provide more information, and mostly about your listeners who want deeper levels of information. They're not satisfied with the three-minute soundbite.

They're not satisfied with a little blip on the news. They want to dig in deeper. And this, you know, amidst all the bad things that may be happening out there, this process of the podcast is one of the good things.

And you know, the newspaper is tomorrow's birdcage liner, but 100 years from now, people may be listening to this. You know, it's archived. It's there for anybody who wants to. So, praise God for you and.

Your listeners, and eager to be able to discuss this topic with you. Amen. And I'm grateful too. And that's a good thought. I hadn't really thought about that. But yeah, it's going to be archived, and Lord willing, we'll go on in perpetuity.

I also want to mention to those who are viewers, I know some of you are listening to this on the podcast. Some of you are watching this on our video podcast. And you'll notice I'm not in my normal studio.

I'm not even in my, I have two studios. I have one at the church, one at the house. Well, I'm actually in a, I am in a rental house this week. My wife, a shout out to her, is so gracious. We're on our baby moon.

We're expecting our sixth child. And we came for a week away, and my wife heard that I had an opportunity to interview Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman. And she said, you know what, bring your equipment, do it on the show, and I'll take the kids to Chick-fil-A.

So that's where she is right now. I want to shout out to her for doing that. And so if you're listening to this, and you hear a little bit of an echo on my side, I'm not using my normal equipment. I'm in my portable studio.

So I do hope that you would give me a little bit of grace on that as a listener. I know that we want to have a quality program every time, and that's certainly what we try to accomplish.

What we do with these things, too, is we give people the gift of our vulnerability. The dogs, the kids, the away home. We let them look into our lives just a little bit. And that's the gift of our vulnerability.

We're not perfect in sound studio, pancake makeup. This is people. And you're getting a little bit of their lives. And it's.

A beautiful thing. So praise God. Absolutely. And I notice you're in a room that is filled.

With things I would love to look at. When the pandemic struck, we shuffled things around, and we kind of set up a studio. I really am big on the helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, the shield of faith, and the sword of the spirit.

And so what other people think of as weapons of war, these are tools of spiritual warfare and physical defense. And anybody who's seen one of my presentations, I wrap it up at the end of the day with love.

It's all about love. The opposite of evil is love. Evil is the absence of love, just as darkness is the absence of light. So we take these things that are instruments of war, the helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, the shield of faith, and we take these things and we give them a new light.

And even when we do use actual weapons, we're using them in benevolent violence. We're using them to save lives and to protect lives. And so we can take the whole perspective on a different light. And it kind of introduces a concept that I have of the sheepdog under the authority of the great shepherd.

My dog, right now, if I let her loose in the yard, she'll run in the neighbor's yard. She'll find something stinky to roll in. But I still love her. And I know it's her nature. God sees every bad thing we do.

He sees everything we do, and yet He still loves us. And I think that my dog doesn't understand the vast majority of what I do. Putting clothes on every morning, working on the laptop, on my cell phone, the dog can't even comprehend what I'm doing.

And I think that's kind of the way we are with God. When we get up there, we're going to understand everything. And it's going to be beautiful. But right now, it's all I can handle to barely think of myself as God's faithful sheepdog.

And the analogy is power. And George Will, or Will Rogers, Will Rogers, kind of a humorist in the 30s and the 40s, he said, if you ever get to think in your man of some importance, try telling another man's dog what to do.

So we're God's dog. And when you tell some dog, it says, I'm just a dog. I don't know much, but I know this. I'm not your dog. You know, when the evil one comes to us, we can look him in the eyes and say, I'm not your dog.

I have given myself heart, mind, and spirit to the creator of this universe, and you have no authority over me. So that's the whole sheepdog warrior etho dynamic in a nutshell. I'm trying to manifest it here with our little studio here.

And these are all gifts that have been given to me. And we've got a thing in armed combat about the giving of a weapon, how it implies your desire for their well-being, your trust in their ability. And that's kind of symbolic in all of that as.

Well. So thanks for asking. Yes, sir. Absolutely. When I present a black belt to someone, which is a rare occasion, obviously, but when I present a black belt to someone, I always give them a sword to go along with the belt.

And that is, again, a symbol of the trust that we're giving to that person to take the leadership and the authority and the mantle of instructor and move forward.

So yeah. Oh, that is so beautiful. I love that. Absolutely. And that manifestation of these earthly weapons are kind of, they're important. But you know, I'm going to be talking to Second Baptist Church in Houston on the 3rd of July, and it's 4th of July presentation, but I'm going to be talking about God and country and the chaplain, the chaplain's corps, the U .S. Armed Forces, that's their motto, Latin for God and country, in that order.

You know, these spiritual weapons will rust. Ultimately, our nation will fall. Our son will die and eternity continues. So all the spiritual things are infinitely, and I use that word literally, infinitely more important than any earthly things.

So the spiritual manifestations, their spiritual lessons, and everything we do in the spiritual realm is orders of magnitude, infinitely more important than this brief, tiny period here on earth. And that brings us back around to that, that focusing ourselves on what's truly important, and it's eternity.

And it's the unthinkable immensity of eternity is what's in the balance as we try to bring the word to those who will come to the knowledge of salvation, and we try to protect those lives while we're here on earth, manifesting Jesus' love, sacrificial love for others.

Amen. I have the opportunity to serve as a minister with a local funeral home, and so I do two or three services a month for families that I've never met, and a lot of those are military families. So I've done many services at Jacksonville National Cemetery, which is a very beautiful cemetery, and I always talk about the fact that even if a person lives a long life, even if a person lives a hundred years, that is so short and compared to eternity.

And that little dash between the number of their day that they were born and the number of the day that they die, that little dash is small for a reason, because it reminds us of the smallness of this life and the immensity of eternity.

So absolutely. All right, my friend. Well, I have a few questions that I've prepared, and I really am interested in this first one specifically, because as a man who is acquainted with war, who is acquainted with killing, I mean, you've wrote a book called On Killing and a book called On Combat.

A lot of people might have trouble recognizing you as a man of God, thinking that you're a man of war and that those two things are not compatible. I know that they are, and again, you've already used the phrase benevolent violence.

Anybody who's ever heard me talk about the reality of personal protection and my faith know that I use that phrase all the time, and I always give you credit for it. But can you tell us how you came to be a believer, how you became a Christian, when that was, and how that got integrated in your life as a soldier?

Conversion, Faith, and the Christian Soldier

Well, you know, I married a wonderful Christian girl, my bride at 47 years now, my high school sweetheart. She was 15, I was 17 when I proposed to her. I tell people we are from Arkansas. And then two years later, she married a crazy army paratrooper, and she grew up in the church.

And she had a deep and abiding faith, and she had a grandmother who she knew was praying for her by name every day. And you know, when pretty girls, the Lord used pretty godly women to bring more people to the Lord than anything else out there, I think.

I had this sense that I'm a soldier, it's all I've ever wanted to be. I grew up in the martial arts, I turned 18, I enlisted. You know, in the first grade, I remember the teacher saying, what are you going to be when you grow up?

And I'm going to be a soldier. And this idea that you can't be military, can't be law enforcement, and be a Christian, you don't understand how much harm is done by that. How much harm is done by thinking, well, our military is wrong, and our cops are all wrong, and this is evil.

The harm that's done by that, the people who think I can't be a soldier and be a Christian, I can't be a cop and be a Christian, that's terrible, harmful. And that was in me. I had taken this, you know, the world shows somebody waving a black book and shouting, thou shalt not kill.

So I'm a young sergeant in Fort Bragg, North Carolina, must have been about 1975, 76. I'm going to a night school to get my two-year degree to go to OCS. My life's goal was to be a paratrooper, a sergeant, and to go to OCS.

And one of the night classes I took was a philosophy class. And the professor was a pastor at a local church. He had a PhD in philosophy from Duke University, but he was a pastor. And he really brought me around to my understanding that being a Christian was the reasonable and right and appropriate thing.

I came to the Lord with my head, and he made it clear that it was completely appropriate to be a cop, to be a soldier. And he showed me the verses, you know, and how many people go to college and are drawn off to the world by some humanist professor.

With me, it was just the opposite. I came to the Lord with my head, and I've been following my heart for a long time, you know. I tell people, you know, if you even think it might be true, that's a little seed of belief.

And you plant that seed of belief and ask for more belief. And God is so clear that we're supposed to ask for more belief. The disciples said, teach us how to have more faith. You know, the man came to Jesus and said, please, you know, save my son.

And he said, you know, if you have sufficient faith, anything can be done. He said, I believe. Help my unbelief. Boom. That's all he asked. That's all.

Jesus asked. Boom, we went and saved the man. That's one of my favorite verses. I may interrupt you. That's one of my favorite verses, and you mentioned it several times so far in the book. I've already noticed, and I think that's exactly right.

I believe, but Lord, I also struggle,.

So help my unbelief. That is very true. I've met a few people who say there's absolutely no speck of doubt in their mind. And I've got to believe them. But I have trouble understanding how that could be so.

You know, our human nature, our human frailty is always pulling at us. And that bit of doubt, you know, we know salvation waits for us, but how many people are eager to do it? If we knew how good eternity was, you know.

And now people are truly eager to do it. And you see elderly people who are done with life and are eager to get there. So this business of come to the Lord with my head, and my heart's been following ever since.

I think there's great power in that. Well, we've got volume two up on spiritual combat, and we talk a lot about that. In volume one, we talk a lot about it. You know, when you finish it, maybe we can do this again after you get through the rest of it.

I'd be tickled to talk some more about that with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'd love that. Yeah. But it first came with my head, and then my heart. And this idea, you know, we've got Cornelius, a Roman centurion, the first Gentile we know that God said, go and preach to this man in his household.

Never once has it said it's inappropriate to be a Roman centurion and to be a Christian. Never once was it implied. You know, people turn things inside out to try to make some different meaning than what God is saying.

You know, Jesus said, I told you before, you know, one of the last things he tells them, Luke 22, 36, don't even take your cloak with you. Now I tell you, sell your cloak and buy a sword. And they said, Lord, we have two.

And he said, that's enough and moved on. Does he mean two out of 12 is enough? Does he mean, does he mean, you know, that's enough on this subject? I'm moving on. Well, there's this twisted convoluted thing that, well, he said that because you see, he knew he was going to be arrested.

He wanted to fulfill the prophecy that they would treat him like a criminal and two swords were enough to prove they were criminals. No, it's not. It's perfectly legal to carry a sword. It's perfectly legal to have a sword.

I mean, it's twisted, convoluted pacifist that, oh, he said to carry a sword, but he didn't really mean that. He meant it at multiple levels. He may have meant it at multiple levels, but he's not telling you something that he didn't mean.

And, you know, there's, we'd look through the Old Testament, you know, and the Hebrews, it says that, you know, that Jesus was, or that David was a man after God's own heart. And, you know, and the Bible said Saul was killed in thousands.

David is killed as tens of thousands. David was a man after God's own heart. You know, I'm David. I like the name David. People point to David and say, well, well, look at all the bad things he did. Well, you know, it's funny because there's that logical proof of the Bible.

You know, the Old Testament doesn't honor any living human being. Any king would have hunted down and killed the guy that wrote that kind of bad stuff about them, or bad stuff about their father, or their grandfather.

There's no other reference work from ancient history that doesn't honor the king. This is the only living document that honors no living human being. It told all the bad things that David did, but also told how he got right with the Lord, and how he repented.

And, you know, just multiple authors, hundreds, even thousands of years, in complete alignment with one thing, prophesying a future Messiah in the Old Testament. And then, boom, the New Testament. Again, not honoring any human being except that coming Messiah, fulfilling every one of those prophecies, and his love for us, and God's love for us.

And it all flows from there. So, this logical dynamic of this. And then, men don't die for a lie. Eleven out of twelve disciples were murdered for their faith. All they had to do was say, okay, it was a big con job.

We repent. And they lived. Men don't die for a lie. The remaining one was John, who lived his life on tragic exile on an island of the Mediterranean. You don't spend your last years in exile for a lie.

And then, the Roman history of all of the second generation, the ones that John, and Peter, and Paul brought to salvation, they died, and died, and died again, because these men physically witnessed Jesus return for the dead.

Thomas touched the wound. They witnessed it, and they reported it. We have four different literate witnesses who collected the information and made it to us. This is not Muhammad on an island, you know, writing it down himself.

I'm sorry, this is not, you know, the father of the Mormons, who suddenly has a revelation and writes it down himself. This is actual historical fact that is recorded by God with multiple...nothing in that era, nothing in that era has as many witnesses.

The existence of Socrates and Aristotle is less proven and has less witnesses than the existence of Jesus. Just your head, when you begin to grab these things, it is the only logical, rational choice.

So anyway, that's a long-winded answer to my coming to the Lord and this continued evolution, and then trying to put that in the book, how this is the logical, rational, and beautiful thing. And I tell people, even if you say, I wish it was true.

I wish there was a loving God. I wish it was just, oh, that's a seed of belief. That's a seed of belief. Plant that seed and ask for more faith, and welcome, welcome to eternity in heaven as you embrace that and you.

Follow the path that Jesus has given us. It's so interesting that you mention that, because I remember my conversion. It was after a time of difficult depression where I thought maybe God doesn't exist.

Maybe there is no meaning. Maybe there is no hope, and I did have a friend, a very faithful, believing friend who said, you know what? You have to trust and then spend your life backing up that trust.

Spend your life giving, you know, and really I would say the heart of my preaching is an apologist's heart, that I'm preaching, defending the faith.

Every time. So, absolutely. You know, one of the things in this On Spiritual Combat Volume 2, we say, you know, Protestants in particular spend an awful lot of time trying to look at end times, and guess when end times will be?

When we're told no man can know the hour, it's almost wasted energy and wasted time. And we say that, you know, we got a lot we can draw from the Catholic faith and their study of the martyrs, and I think there's a lot more value from an apologetic standpoint, from an evangelical standpoint.

There's much more value in studying these Christians who laid down their lives. Right now, as we speak, millions of Christians are being persecuted. Vast numbers are being murdered every year for their faith, and men don't die for a lie.

And, you know, here we are trying to guess when the Lord comes again, which serves no real value when we should be focusing on this proof. And it kind of comes back to the whole pacifism issue, to tie the knot on this pacifist, thou shalt not kill.

Well, every single Jewish translation of the original Hebrew translates, you shall not murder. It's very clear from the context that they're talking about murder. All of the, but one of the modern translations translates, you shall not murder.

Thou shalt not kill in the King James Bible, came out in the year 1611, over 400 years ago, maybe a Hebrew word, maybe taken out of context and badly translated, but go to where Jesus in, I think it's Matthew 19, 18, he's running through the commandments, and Jesus says, thou shalt do no murder.

King James, translated from the original Greek. You know, it's not about killing. It's about murder, unlawful killing. And we spin off with this, if you will, maybe just a little bit of a weak translation thing, horribly out of context.

And we run with this simplistic misrepresentation, when the reality is so straightforward, you shall not murder. And those who fight to preserve innocent lives have never received anything but the highest honor.

I use the example of World War II. Now, did all of the pastors and priests and ministers and rabbis and chaplains in World War II, they all preached, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not kill. Then the war began, they said, oh, we changed our mind.

Kill those guys. It's cool. No, that's not what happened. They weren't all hypocrites. They weren't all liars. They all knew, you shall not murder. And they stood behind those who fought the evil of Nazi Germany.

If all those pastors and priests and ministers and rabbis had stood up and said, no, you shall not kill. Well, the Germans would be ruling us right now. And the truth is so much more powerful and appropriate than this simplistic Hollywood misrepresentation.

And that's the apologetic dynamic of helping people understand.

The full message, the full word. Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to ask you another question. This is a little bit of a change of topic, but continuing on the same vein. I remember when I got to come to your Bulletproof Minds seminar, and it was such a wonderful just it was eight hours of sitting and listening to somebody talk.

And I never got bored one time. I never I never lost my place. It was just wonderful. When did that begin? How looking in your life, I know that it says you retired in 1998. How quickly did you start seeing your calling to teach men how to survive violent encounters?

Because that's the way I that's what I took away from it. This is about survival.

Teaching Men to Survive Violent Encounters

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it goes back to my first book. It's 1974. Private Grossman enlisted in the Army. I'm in the 82nd Airborne Division. There's Vietnam veterans all around us. And I'm a guy who spent his whole life asking questions that other people didn't want to answer.

I'm the guy looking under rocks. I'm the guy saying, why do we do this? You know, what's behind this? And we wanted to know what combat was going to be like. And they wouldn't say. It was like this taboo.

I tell people it's like if somebody said, hey, you know, tell me about the sex life. How you and the wife doing? You know, what position you like? How often you do it? You wouldn't even ask that question.

But if a scholarly study was taking place, and you're being surveyed, you might tell you might even tell the truth. So you know, some private, some fellow soldier asking about their combat experience, they didn't want to tell.

So fast forward, you know, I go to OCS, I get a degree on the Army's time. I'm doing good. I've been selected to teach at West Point. And I've been selected to teach psychology at West Point. This is God pounding a square pig into a round hole.

You know, psychology, I'm a military historian. I'm an army ranger. I don't want no stinking psychology. So I said, I will study the psychology of killing, not homicide, but lawful killing, cops and military.

And the result was my book on killing. Praise God, half a million copies sold in English, translated seven languages, Marine Corps combatants required reading. So the book came out in 1995. Now, and when I was at West Point, I was part of their Speakers Bureau.

And West Point teaches you how to teach. I mean, I'm a graduate of many military courses, but nobody taught you how to teach like West Point. And we're psychology professors. We know what works and why PowerPoint can be so harmful and why there's other things we can use.

And besides death by PowerPoint, in my presentation, I've got the big easels and I've got the document camera. And so I was part of the Speakers Bureau and kind of telling chunks of my book to veterans units.

And then the book came out in 95. I'm being asked to come and speak to various locations. 98, I got out. And I'm, amazingly, I'm being asked to come and present to all kinds of law enforcement organizations.

And the study continues. And what I realized was World War II, Vietnam, they were 18-year-old kids. And for them, the whole killing thing was hard. For a mature individual who's prepared themselves, mind, body, and spirit, the killing side of the thing is just not that big a deal.

And some people are offended by that. They want people to be destroyed by killing. Well, I'm sorry, it's not true. The folks who came home from World War II, they weren't destroyed by what they had to do.

And prior to 9 -11, prior to the invasion of Afghanistan, the only ones in combat every day were law enforcement. So I'm tapping into that information and I put it all together in my book, On Combat. An early draft of On Combat was ready.

My son deployed to the invasion of Afghanistan. My son's Air Force Spec Ops with nine combat tours. And the book I literally wrote for my son going into his first combat was an early draft of On Combat.

So that's kind of my scholarly history. That's On Combat. And then it's always evolving. My presentation is evolving. Constantly new research, new data, studying other people, adding as I sit here right now, I've got half a dozen, you know, I put things under a document reader.

And I've got half a dozen crimes happening around the world. In France, a man with a vehicle murders 80 people and wounds 400 with a vehicle attack. We're not even thinking about that. We think, oh, we'll get rid of the guns, you know.

We've got a case in China where a group of people with knives murder 30 people and wound 120 with knives. We've got daycare attacks and we've got nursery attacks in China and Japan with knives. We got one in Belgium.

I was called to the White House as part of President Trump's roundtable on violent video games. I gave him a copy of my book, Assassination Generation. Really, as we sit here right now, we just had that terrible massacre in the school in Vivaldi.

But my book, Assassination Generation, talks about that. I was invited to the White House again and gave a copy of the book to Vice President Pence and gave him a copy of the book, Another Gracious, Impressive Man.

And as these terrible crimes are arising across America, I've been saying it's going to happen and why it's happening and how we teach soldiers to kill and what the military does to teach soldiers to kill and how the video games are doing the same thing to our kids.

And suddenly, again, God pounded our square pig into a round hole and here I am talking about all these things, pinching all the cops. They embrace what I do, constant interactive feedback loop, latest research, continued work, and praise God.

And the capstone is on spiritual combat. Now, I'm 65 years old. I pray I can keep doing this for another 20 years. Things are bad. The wheels have come off the bus. Violence exploded like nothing we've ever seen before.

The whole, you know, the whole defund the police is the most evil and goofy conspiracy theory of modern history. The idea that the cops are the bad guys, you know, Romans chapter 13, if you don't want to fear the police, then obey the law.

I mean, it could not have been put more clearly in God's word. But this idea that the law is illegitimate, I don't have to obey the law, the terrible, terrible price we pay for that. Here I am in the middle of all of this getting the latest research out there and the latest data out there.

But I hope I can do it for another 20 years. But the Lord could take me home tomorrow. And with On Spiritual Combat out, I feel like I've been able to close the loop with what's the most important thing, infinitely important thing, not saving lives, although there's nothing here on this earth more important than that, but saving lives for eternity, to bring people to the knowledge of salvation.

Again, the book On Spiritual Combat is kind of the capstone of this whole evolutionary movement for.

Me. Does that make sense? Does that answer the question? Yes, absolutely. And that leads to what I was going to ask next. And that is how did the Bulletproof Mind turn into what you now do at churches?

Because correct me if I'm wrong, you do seminars in churches about violent crime. Tell us.

Church Security, Sheepdogs, and Spiritual Combat

A little bit about that. Well, we teach church safety. I've always done a little bit of that. I've always done, you know, we've always had some church security people that pop in or that we talk with and communicate with.

And a wonderful godly friend of mine by the name of Jimmy Meeks, he put me and Carl Chin together. And Carl Chin now has got the Faith-Based Security Network. And we did over 100 sheepdog house of worship security team training.

And Jimmy Meeks and Carl Chin and I, we tag teamed them. And it was really, again, God just putting me in a direction saying, here's where we want you to go. The door was open. And the people who are going to provide security for a church, they need to know about slow motion time and auditory exclusion and tunnel vision, the things my cops need to know.

You know, the killing, the stuff and non-killing is academic. The stuff and non-combat is what's really important. But at the same time that you talk about these physical things, slow motion time, tunnel vision, the bad guys have tunnel vision too.

Lateral movement takes you off the radar screen. As we apply all of those things to the church environment, we've also got to speak to the spiritual things. And on why being a sheepdog for God's flock is a worthy and necessary thing to get our hearts into the end, having our hearts spiritually right is infinitely more important than being physically right.

And that evolved into my book on spiritual combat. Every step of the way, the Lord just kind of shoved me into here and said, this is what's important right now. This is the information, put it together, put it in a book.

Every step of the way, God's given me great co-authors and great co-laborers in these endeavors. I've got a book coming out in about six months called On Hunting. And it's really going to be the definitive book on the subject.

We'll talk about it later down the road if you're interested. It goes in directions you wouldn't imagine. And like on killing and on combat, on hunting, they're really woven together. They're all the same dynamic.

And they're all reaching out to kind of draw an audience. And then they said, well, what's Grossman going to say about on spiritual combat? And now we've won the most important battle of all. We've brought them to.

The knowledge of salvation. Yes, absolutely. Now, I'm very curious about the hunting book. Now, you're talking about like animal hunting, deer hunting, that kind of thing?

Yeah. And just give you one angle on it. I've got the most wonderful co-author. And we're doing it with a Christian publisher, the ones who publish on killing or the ones that publish on spiritual combat, bulletproof marriage, wonderful people, Broad Street publishers.

They accepted it. And what we tried to do is make sure if you come from a faith-based perspective, we don't need to get into evolution. We don't need to get into 500 ,000 years ago. There's talk about how we've moved and how we developed over time.

But we tried to make it so that somebody coming from a non-evolutionary standpoint would not be offended, could embrace it. But one of the most important things, though, is the whole business of protecting wildlife and preserving wilderness.

And Ducks Unlimited and other wildlife conservation movements, hunters have done more good for wildlife conversation than any other body of individuals by far. And they say in Michigan or Minnesota during deer season, the largest army on the planet is out there with loaded weapons and yet absolutely no harm to anybody.

And protecting wildlife and the money that they spend on their license, the money that they spend on their tags, where's that money goes to preserving. But one of the just amazing thing is the Kenya versus Botswana model.

In Kenya, they banned all trophy hunting and the game is being slaughtered. They're just, they're being slaughtered. They're bush hunting and poaching. Meanwhile, Botswana has taken the village and said, all this land around the village belongs to you.