Hitchens/D'Souza/Prager Debate

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on December 24th 2009 were two hours early and getting started because well,

I'm having Christmas Eve Dinner at my son's home this evening.

That's when you start realizing you are truly middle -aged is When you go to Christmas Eve dinner at your son's home

With his wife and stuff like that. No kids yet, but Who knows?

You know, I'm sort of hoping to drag a promise out of him that I'll be a grandpa by 50

That would be I think that'd be great We're already, you know every time I see my wife holding a baby,

I'm just like yep, she's practicing she's practicing time for that next stage of life

Grandma and grandpa will will babysit tonight. You bet. Uh -huh. That's that's how it works. Ah But I wouldn't mind being a grandpa at 50.

That'd be great. I'd be super You know, we got started early. So why not? Welcome to the dividing line on a

Christmas Eve those of you who are Puritans I'm sorry, but you're just gonna have to live with it

Just do it. I Recognize, you know, you've got your arguments, but I've got mine too.

So anyway Want to read something from still in my opinion the best writer

I have ever read on The subject of the Trinity and I have recommended his works.

We have some of his works in our bookstore It'd be nice. We had all of them actually maybe we could get all of them

And given how often I recommend BB Warfield or probably wise if we did have all of them but I Love this

This section listen carefully what BB Warfield had to say the Old Testament May be likened to a chamber richly furnished, but dimly lighted

The introduction of light brings into it nothing which was not in it before but it brings out into clearer view much of what?

Is in it but was only dimly or even not at all perceived before the mystery the Trinity It's not revealed in the

Old Testament But the mystery the Trinity underlies the Old Testament revelation and here or there almost comes into view

Thus the Old Testament revelation of God is not corrected by the fuller revelation which follows it but only perfected extended and enlarged we cannot speak of the doctrine the

Trinity therefore if we study exactness of speech as Revealed in the New Testament any more than we speak of it as revealed in the

Old Testament The Old Testament was written before its revelation the New Testament after the

Revelation Revelation itself was made not in word But indeed it was made in the incarnation of God the

Son and the outpouring of God the Holy Spirit the relation of the two testaments to this revelation is

In the K in the one case that of preparation for it and in the other that of product of it Revelation itself is embodied just in Christ and the

Holy Spirit This is much as to say that the Revelation the Trinity was Incidental to and the inevitable effect of the accomplishment of redemption it was in the coming of the

Son of God and likeness of sinful flesh to offer himself a sacrifice for sin and the coming of the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin of Righteousness and of judgment that the

Trinity of persons and the unity of the Godhead was once for all revealed to men that once again is

Part and parcel the foundation upon which I have often said that the gospel is triune

That without a knowledge of the Trinity your knowledge of the gospel is going to be much less and vice versa they cannot be separated from one another and it is greatly to the degradation of our worship that many people today are

Nigh unto illiterate when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity Especially in putting that doctrine into practice in the worship of the church

It has been well said that in a lot of Western Christendom most hymns and things like that are

Basically monotheistic, but rarely overly Trinitarian. That's one of the things that I like again Puritans cover your ears

It's one things I like about Christmas hymns. Is it some of the most deep? Theology in regards to doctrine of the

Trinity I've ever heard is in the often not sung verses of Christmas hymns

Now, of course at the Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church when we sing any of those hymns We sing all of the verses because we always sing all of the verses of every song

We sing every word plus one. Amen. Amen. Amen Wednesday Wednesday night those of you

I've already looked at the blog. I did a Bible study I did the I had the Wednesday evening devotional and I did it on Emmanuel and Toward the end there.

I was mentioning that the old church used to go to we would do Christmas musicals and things like that And I said that would never work here

Because we would never be able to put an amen at the end of every song And We used to have the red the red version of the

Trinity hymnal thankfully the Reformed Baptist version came out and it's the old version of the Trinity hymnal and You know still has the amens and things like that on it but The red version of the

Trinity hymnal had El Shaddai in it the song I only remember I know it wasn't

Amy Grant that that wrote it or anything like that It was the other guy, but I forget what was Uh, but was that Michael Card they read that maybe it was my card.

I don't know. Anyway, it had El Shaddai in it and Some of the young people would would request

El Shaddai and As good

Reformed Baptist at the end of Every rendition of El Shaddai we would sing the amen

And I think that may be the only time that El Shaddai has ever been sung with an amen at the end of it is in a

Reformed Baptist Church. So Anyways, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number today

I just wanted to share that thought with you as we consider the incarnation

Or begin doing so I suppose I should mention, you know, you've heard you've heard of the 12 days of Christmas And you've probably wondered what in the world is that well historically the

Eastern Orthodox celebrate Christmas on January 6th and there happens to be 12 days between December 25th and January 6th and It was not just a single day it was a season of celebration feasting rejoicing

Going through to January 6th and For those of you who have bought into the well, there's just not a ghost of a chance

The Jesus was born at this time of your argument I would recommend to you a very interesting article written by Roger Beckwith on the subject of the service of the priests in the temples he goes through Zechariah's family and Actually demonstrates that especially the

January 6th date has a very solid foundation in that particular area

That's kind of stuff never gets any play You know the news and everybody else is gonna talk about things like that.

But anyway That's what the 12 days is. It has nothing to do with Lords of leaping and ladies dancing and five golden rings and stuff like that it was a season of celebration and It does seem like especially in Western the

Western Nations that limiting these things to one day

Seems to have really cheapened things and but hey, it's a secular world

We're living in I guess we shouldn't be overly surprised bid as it may it's seven seven seven five three three four one

We are getting some phone calls in before we get to those. I wanted to briefly cover what

I said. I was going to cover I was listening to A debate took place

I guess in 2008. I'm not sure why I was unaware of it but it was a debate took place between Christopher Hitchens Dinesh D'Souza and Mr.

Prager Dennis Prager that is a atheist a liberal

Roman Catholic and a sort of middle -of -the -road Jew Which means the distinctly biblical and Christian worldview was not represented in this particular debate

And that is a sad thing and that's a frustrating thing to listen to I Had never heard

Christopher Hitchens get quite this nasty in a debate Especially toward a

Jewish person on the subject of the Holocaust I found that Amazing that he would do that, but I don't think

Christopher Hitchens really cares about where anybody is and So let me let me just play the first part where Hitchens I don't know about you, but I can just tell that the the pH level here is extremely low

It's that low. Yeah low high would be base low would be acidic. He's he's just dripping acid here

Listen listen to what Hitchens has to say How about if we give

Christopher and just a minute to respond? And then and then Well, you only have to read

Primo Levi At least he'd be the one I would I think I would probably suggest First to find out that there's nothing hypothetical about the question

That was just asked to me We know because so many Jewish people did have to wonder who would who they could turn to in that moment and we know exactly what happened when they turned

Well, that's great. So what the microphone doesn't work either now There's nothing hypothetical about the last question.

I was asked when they when it finally came to a question Because it was the fate of many many

Jewish people in Europe to have to wonder to whom they could turn In their time of extremity and I'll tell you the place they didn't which was the to the churches

That had made the official concordat with Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini The churches that had told their parties to vote for him in the in the

Reichstag The church that had told especially the Catholic Church that told its bishops to celebrate

Adolf Hitler's birth Day every year from the pulpit which they did till April 1945

Which had preached the anti -semitism on which the Nazi Party based itself Which in many cases violated the seal of the confessional to turn over resistors and in all cases turned over the birth records of the parishes of Bavaria and the rest of Germany so the

Nuremberg laws could be enforced and everyone with even a particle of Jewish blood could be Identified set aside for deportation and persecution anyone who doesn't know this doesn't know anything about it.

Not only that not one person Was Excommunicated or threatened with excommunication by the church for taking part in the final solution

Paul Johnson a Roman Catholic historian Estimates that 40 to 50 percent of the

Waffen SS were confessing Communicating Roman Catholics not one of them was ever threatened with the smallest punishment for what they did or were doing but No, don't let's give up.

It doesn't mean that there's no relationship between Christianity and morality in this dark hour Joseph Goebbels was expelled was excommunicated from the

Roman Catholic Church. He was why do you know why? for marrying a

Protestant Magda Goebbels was a Protestant and a divorcee Joseph Goebbels had the sacraments withdrawn from him

That's the only case I know of a Nazi being threatened with discipline by the Roman Catholic Church To dare to ask me that question in that tone of voice in this audience.

I think shows something something really like Moral irresponsibility, but that's my reply and that's the short version

Okay, try me on this again and on the relationship between faith and totalitarianism and I have a lot more for you

Okay, so just keep trying Alrighty then thank you

Christopher Remember that's directed at Dennis Prager a

Jew who had just Made the assertion basically he had talked about some

Jewish historian or some historian of the Holocaust something that had said if you were a

Jewish person at that time whose door would you knock on that of a Doctor a lawyer or a priest and they said oh without a question priest

Well, that was that was Hitchens response. And if you watch the video, I mean, he's just He's angry.

He's he's he's exceptionally angry at that at that point and Prager said nothing in response instead.

He he turned to the Nash D'Souza and Now Prager had been going back and forth with Hitchens He had first asked

Hitchens. Do you ever doubt your atheism and Hitchens said I do not I try but I fail

And so they had gone back and forth and it sort of broken down got a little silly there for a while and then

Just to be fair a Prager asks the Nash D'Souza a a question which is coming right up here

That's right there. Come on. You can do it It's supposed to be is it not running?

Do you believe that Jews? Definitionally do not accept

Jesus as their Savior or or the Trinity or any Christian specifically Christian doctrine are saved

I Believe the answer to that is yes Although I would have to explain but I'll answer in short form.

Yes, okay and in fact, by the way, my evidence for this is in the Bible because there is a

Scene in the Bible where Abraham who clearly came before Jesus didn't know Jesus didn't accept

Jesus is described as being in heaven So quite clearly there has to be a mode of salvation

Applicable to the Old Testament before Jesus that doesn't include Jesus It's not fair, but I'll just I'm just curious given that your wife is an evangelical would she agree with you on that?

I Think so, although this calls for further discussion Well, that's very nice, but this is another reason why the

Nash D'Souza Should stick to writing books on politics and stay out of theology because it isn't anything about it.

Unfortunately very bright man and Says some nice things but if you push at all past the surface level his theology collapses into an unbiblical mess and here's an opportunity to give testimony to the

Messiah ship of Jesus to affirm that Yahweh the covenant God of Israel has revealed himself as Father Son Holy Spirit that That there is salvation to be found in none other to follow in the apostolic footprints of calling all

The children of Abraham to faith in the same God that Abraham believed in who has now revealed himself as Father Son Holy Spirit but of course you get the universalistic collapse of the modern post modernist

Oh, of course, the Jews are saved. But then the reason given is Absurdly naive biblically.

Oh, well Abraham is in Abraham's bosom and so he never knew Jesus Yeah, is well, let's not talk about that little thing in John 8

Where Jesus himself taught that Abraham rejoiced to see his day and saw it and was glad Let alone the fact this is pre incarnation.

We're talking about today and obviously Prager was talking about today. He was talking about himself and Basically what

Dinesh D'Souza said, ah, you can reject the Trinity the deity of Christ cross resurrection. Ah, you're good.

No worries That's why listening to that. That's why again remember this was the man

That was chosen to debate Christopher Hitchens at the Southern evangelical seminaries

National apologetics conference folks. I Just you know

Sit here and shake my head and go why Why? It's it's extremely frustrating.

Well, anyways, there was a Q &A section that I wanted to review and then we'll get to our calls Since our lines are already filled up Here is the

Q &A section. I'll be stopping and starting but I just want to go through about five or six minutes of this

Question for mr. Hitchens You just you state that you don't want God or God as you define him to exist

But what if it turned out that this God unlike many of his fault flawed followers were full of mercy and love

Towards those who suffer the God of the prodigal son be at the parable the painting or the book would that be a

God you could? accept No because Let me say what

I Think about the the underlay of that question, which is people try to design the sort of God they would like This is a part of the religious cafeteria of which

I'm so Critical the God if he exists does not owe me an explanation

It would be idle it seems to me and trivial to say well if you exist, why are you cruel?

It's it's it's boring and self -hitting to talk like that Pascal says

I just want to stop there It isn't an amazing how many times Hitchens is right as an atheist that Christians don't get

He sees things that Christians in their traditions. Don't see he nailed Frank Turek when he

Jumped from plain deism to Christian theism he saw the leap he recognized the limits of evidentialism that the

Norman Geisler school does not see and just glosses over he saw that and nailed it remember we played that on here and Here he recognizes.

You know if God is God then we don't really need to be pandering to him God can be

God and do what God wants to do and Of course he's exactly right. I mean his it's just that Christopher Hitchens hates him for that.

That's that's the issue He's just Christopher Hitchens is just a glowing example of the unregenerate

Creature who is in absolute unbridled rebelling against his creator. He hates

God He just hates him the passion and he gives vent to that passion, and that's what takes a lot of people that famous wager

Well, what have you got to lose if he does exist you may? Find yourself tremendously fortunate if you make the right propitiations, and if you agree with his existence

And if he doesn't well, then you haven't lost a thing now I regard that as an another example of the essential immorality of religious preachment

That seems to me a huckster ish thing to be saying on Pascal's part My reply to it would be

Bertrand Russell's reply to this by the way was if he was some confronted with God on the day He died What would he say he said

Lord you did not give us enough evidence? a Bit dry,

I think I would say in if I had my chance of Pascal's bat I would say well if your reputation

Served as it appears to be sir or Lord Is as I understand it to be it might be that you would look more kindly upon someone who would not

Pretend to believe you in the hope of a reward or the fear of a punishment Someone who would who would rather try and live an ethical to lead an ethical life without that bribe without that inducement

And that I might in that way perhaps earn The credit of this very dubious character

But you see even to talk like this is surely to make ourselves realize that no grown -up can only be can really allow themselves to think

This way we are responsible ourselves for how we treat others. We are responsible

Ourselves for a human solidarity and we will suffer when those solidarities break down And we have a great interest as well as a great need to keep human dignity and decency alive for its own sake not because we fear heaven excuse me not because we fear hell or Wish for heaven or desire any of these other?

sorts of primitive fear or inducement May we have for a brief response

God is in in the Abrahamic tradition and in fact I think for all the major religions and immaterial being and there is something inherently ridiculous in demanding a material proof of An immaterial being you have to ask.

What is the kind of evidence that would convince me so for example Gravity is immaterial now not the effects of gravity if I jump out of a tall tower

I plummet to the ground, but that's me gravity is the law describing what I did Where do we find gravity we infer it from its effects?

So the question is we have here a universe it had a beginning Presumably didn't create itself

Who created it or what created it that what can't be natural the universe includes everything that all of nature

It has to be non -natural. Let us say supernatural. It has to be pretty powerful Maybe not all powerful, but close to it that we call

God now No I seen that that that's where you see so glaringly the limitation of This kind of argumentation.

I agree with everything that's been said But as my apologetics professor said long long ago

When talking about these kinds of proofs that they prove the wrong God That's not the Christian.

God the Christian. God is not merely just a supernatural Creator of all things who's just got a lot of power

You can only go so far and to think that you can make the leap beyond that on the same basis

That's where the the problem in apologetic method comes up one of my debates with the atheist Michael Shermer I told him

I said what kind of proof would convince you that God exists What if you found a planet that had emblazoned on it

Yahweh made this? Would you convert on the spot and he said no he said

I can think of no Evidence whatever that would convince me in a sense I guess what we're getting at and there is the perfect example of presuppositionalism if you don't deal

With that moral rebellion against the obvious to start with you don't deal with a heart first All the evidence in the world isn't gonna make a difference these guys keep running into that I've even heard

William Lane Craig make comments that that they see That there are these foundational issues

But they just refuse to they don't have the theological foundation to then address those foundational issues

That's the problem here is there is here. I think not only and I think on the part of Russell to a refusal to believe

But an atheism that has explanations other than simply the absence of evidence in Some senses

Christopher got close to it earlier in this debate where he said to me God is a bit like a celestial despot heaven is sort of like celestial

North Korea I don't want to stand there handing out garlands for eternity. I don't want to go to that kind of place

So it's not as if God is grabbing the unbeliever and flinging him into hell God is making heaven available to everyone and the atheist of his free will is saying

I don't want to go there Yield himself to his people today folks including

Richard Dawkins ask Why doesn't God just reveal himself again and end the argument about his existence once and for all do you think there's any chance he might?

Hmm There is a chance he might My I've asked this question often.

What is it? Woody Allen has said in one of his movies if just God would sneeze I Would be happy all

I just want is a sneeze and that would be sufficient Not my belief is that if God did some spectacular miracle

These the heavens lit up all over the world and in and in hundreds of languages

Clouds formed the words I am God You better take care of each other.

It would have an impact for approximately three days made for some people forever

But immediately there would be explanations of cloud formations that scientists would come out with there.

It wouldn't matter That's the brilliance of the story In in to my mind at any rate in in the

Bible and Where where the Jews are shown all these miracles and then end up building a golden calf anyway

I mean shortly after you know the spleen the sea was split And they still built a golden calf that is human nature because we always ask.

What did you do for me today? that's the way it is we are children in many ways and and God is the is this paternalistic figure and Just as our children our children.

Don't walk around thing my god. You diapered me all those years Wow, I mean how many how many babies say you know

I've prevented my parents from having intimacy for the last Three months I'm gonna shut up tonight

It just doesn't happen the human is not built in with gratitude and so the same thing with God It's what did you do for me lately?

So I don't think it would work if God did make some revelation and finally I don't think there's anything for God to reveal

There's nothing new to be said It's been said There's nothing new to be said it is our task.

This is the instruction manual that I believe in and If you follow it generally speaking people are kinder and If you don't follow it or you pervert it then obviously bad happens, but I don't know what is

God going to add today? What exactly don't abuse children don't build the gas chambers what what hasn't been said?

It's been said it's our task to say either I will live by it or not, but that's my answer to that question actually there is nothing against child abuse or genocide in the 10

Moments since you happen to mention this well there is this do not murder Yeah, immediately Prager's right there, and it's absurd beyond all measure

For Hitchens to even make such a such an outlandish statement that there's nothing against child abuse or genocide

But listen to where Prager stumbles here, and it would just be so easy to respond to him with a home run here

But it doesn't happens why it's so frustrating to listen to these where there's no biblical biblically sound representative in the debate murder means the immoral killing of an innocent so there is in fact a

There's nothing for child abuse and nothing against genocide genocide is genocide is about to be recommended

Against the Amalekites only a few pages later. Yes against the Amalekites It is one exception because of a horrific evil it never happened, but that it is it is prescribed

I have no answer to it just as I cannot tell you that if God care that you know people say what if God told

You to sacrifice your child like he had no condemnation of slavery or child abuse, okay? God would have covered well.

Yes, well what of anybody yes what of ambition yes? Okay, this is this is obviously man -made and man -made at a time of Stone Age morality

There's no divine presence or inspiration in it at all surely that must be planned. Oh well that Is a matter of opinion my opinion is that in the break not a matter of proceeding the

Old Testament? Specifically the first five books is so enormous That it you have to either explain its authors as supermen or some divine

Authorship involved the notion that there is an invisible God who prefers goodness

To evil was unknown in the world the idea that this life is to be celebrated

Remember Judaism arose out of Egypt in Egypt the book of the dead that was the

Bible the pyramids were the great works of art and they were tombs the Egyptians celebrated death and It was that Torah coming out of Egypt that said

I have put before you life and death and you shall choose life It is an utterly life

Death -centered idea in the midst of a death -centered world Ironically Israel main is to this day 2008 still in the death -centered world now, okay, that's all fine and dandy but Why oh?

Why when Hitchens said oh well there's gonna be genocide the Amalekites? The answer is right there on the on the surface of the text and he had even mentioned it before about the the

Amorites and the Amalekites offering their children to Moloch But these people are so afraid of the even mentioning the wrath of God the justice of God they won't mention it and Of course neither will the national suicide

So no biblical Presentation in the debate at all You get a little snatches here and there, but you you don't ever and it's it was extremely frustrating

But sad because at one point the Nasha Sousa did Specifically say and you better start hearing this phrase.

He says well. I am sort of into the mere Christianity view and That is coming out in the

Manhattan Declaration. That's coming out. This is this is a whole movement That in essence seeks to build a

Christianity that has no gospel And a lot of people are getting on board

We are not eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We're gonna take our phone calls right after our break

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Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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Thank you Hey, how can we skip the music outro going in what?

No, the outro from into the break. Yeah, how come we did that?

You don't know Oh, so you're sort of in there just sort of being a little charismatic on the

On the program today computer did it it's another one of those things the rebellion of the oh

The rebellion of the computers the rebellion because they know they're being replaced. Yes They know they're being replaced and therefore they're giving us grief.

I see. Okay. I don't know All I know is the list popped up and it wasn't there Sure, it's always been there before But it today it wasn't there.

It took it off of the holiday So, all right, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Victor's been waiting patiently for half an hour. Hi Victor How are you doing doing good? Great.

I have a quick question about a Romans I mean Hebrews chapter 6.

Mm -hmm where it says They've fallen away He's speaking to a group of people and then you read more and in verse 9 it says

But we have a better hope for you Are these two groups of people people who fall away and then the ones that have the better things are they the same group?

well You might find the sermon I preached on this a number of years ago, which is at PR BC org

To be useful in going into more depth in the whole the whole section It's in the sermons area.

But in fact, we probably should take that. I just realized we had to take all those real audio files and Stick them up on the

YouTube page. I said they'd be more accessible to folks. I'll need to work on it. Anyways but in in brief

The the key to understanding the warning passages in the book of Hebrews is to remember the context the writer is writing to a group of Hebrew Christians who are under tremendous pressure to go back to the old ways

That's why I think that the Hebrews is written before AD 70 before the destruction of the temple and they are being

Pressured to go back to Judaism and to offer sacrifice and by so doing and offering sacrifice

Reject Christ and say that Christ was not the final sacrifice for sins, etc, etc And so what you have in Hebrews chapter 6 is a recognition that there had been people who had gone back

There are apostates we see people who have been in the Christian congregation. They've been in the church

They've sat next to us in the pews. They've partaken of the Lord's Supper with us and today they're not there. That is a reality

We don't you know We could just easily just skip over to first John chapter 2 and and have the description of those people

They went out from us. So it might be demonstrated. They're not truly of us but it's a reality that there are people who have made profession of faith, but have then

For various reasons whether it be family pressure or just love the world or whatever else it might be are no longer there

Well, what does that mean about these people? Well, if you examine carefully what is said in the beginning of chapter 6

This is descriptive of the people who are in the congregation. They're all things that we can observe Within the fellowship of the church there are benefits to take place of a person who's in the fellowship of the church

But verse 9 as you've pointed out says but beloved we are convinced of better things concerning you things that accompany salvation

Though we are speaking in this way So when you speak to the church and you're seeking to encourage the church

I as a minister cannot look into the hearts of the people that are seated before me. I Have to take their profession of faith on face value

But I can't see into their into their hearts and so there has to be a balance struck in the book of Hebrews is always finding that balance in giving warnings that the

Spirit can use in two ways To the person who is a true believer and is experiencing these pressures

Those warnings become the means by which they withstand those pressures For the person who is not truly in Christ Those warnings will fall upon deaf ears and in some instances only increase the condemnation of the person who would as Hebrews chapter 10 says basically do despite to the

Son of God and So the warnings are there to be used by the Spirit just as all preaching is there to be used by the

Spirit to accomplish his purposes We don't know who the elect are and so we deliver the warnings and yet We also deliver the encouragements because to those who truly are saved

We can be convinced of better things concerning them things that accompany salvation So the reality of the book of Hebrews company or a company salvation would be a perseverance, right?

Oh, yes, of course, right? That's that's what he's gonna go on to say because if you look at the next next few verses, that's the whole idea

Is God's not unjust so as to forget your work and love which you have shown to where his name etc Etc. And before that you had the illustration that he used for the ground that drinks the rain which often falls on and brings forth

Vegetation useful to those for whose sake it was also tilled receives a blessing from God But if it yields thorns and thistles is worthless and close to being cursed ends up being burned same type of illustration

Jesus used in regards to the soils the only soil That was representative of a saved person was the one that brought forth fruit

Remember there were other soils that brought forth growth and vegetation, but there was no fruit and that's the thing to remember is that Anybody who's been the church for a period of time has to struggle with the reality of false profession

There have been people who have made claims to be things that they are not and the Bible does directly tell us about that And yet that causes a lot of people problems.

Yeah, just real quick the last point What's what's really troubling to me about this verse at least the hardest part to understand

I can understand You know tasted of the heavenly gift and all that that doesn't necessarily imply regeneration

But where it says a renewal to repentance. Mm -hmm You I believe the

Holy Spirit has to bring that about came to bring conviction and he does that effectually and the people respond

But why would why would he say renew unto repentance if they never he wouldn't be saying renew into a false because But remember the no one would have entered into the

Christian congregation who did not make profession of repentance now Unfortunately, that's not much the case today now is it but we're talking in the episode period

But no one would have been allowed in that fellowship who had not made profession of repentance

And that's that's isn't it It had not really struck me until and thank you for your question because it now it has struck me

That this is a such this this shows Just how far we have fallen in the modern church that we can't even make a parallel of that situation anymore

Because there are so many people sitting in the pews of our churches that have never made repentance a statement of repentance

It's amazing. But in that day, that would have been been the reality. So I think that's again How can

I know that someone's statement of repentance is true outside of just one thing? What is Jesus own statement he who endures the end will be saved

It's not my enduring that saves me but that is the final evidence That my faith is real is that it endures and why is that because it's a divine faith.

It's a work of regeneration That's right. Okay. Thank you. Thank you Victor. God bless. Appreciate it Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one great phone call.

Thank you Victor. Let's talk with Ryan in Tampa Hello, Ryan How you doing

I'm doing well. How are you doing? I'm feeling pretty good today actually. Well, actually I'll be pretty honest with you I'm sitting here bouncing around on my chair because I did a quick Very quick 18 mile ride and I forgot to stretch afterwards

And so my hamstrings are doing everything they can to try to seize up So if I start screaming in the middle of your question, it's not you

That's a really good 18 miles that was a short that was a short one I'm doing 40 tomorrow morning. Oh, well

Well, I had to have two questions related to second Corinthians chapter 3 I was wondering the first question is how should we translate?

the Greek word contra Gael in verses 7 11 or 13 and my second question is

According to Paul. Why didn't Moses put a veil over his face? it's kind of a

Question that is very difficult to answer just off top my head without without looking at them it would it would probably be a

Question that would be much more easily answered with some time to look at it What what is your maybe if you can give me some background

I can see What it is that you're that you're you're looking at I've never done a specific study of cut cut our ghetto

So I can only give you what's what's the lexical meanings and things like that. Is there is there a particular?

Issue that you're you're working with or what? Well, for example in the NAS the

New American Standard in verse 7 It says but if the ministry of death and letters and grieves on stones came with glorious of the sons of Israel Cannot look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory's face fading as it was in a verse 1113 the also translate contra gas fading.

I'm just having a difficult time because The standard lexicons don't have fading and the story that Paul's commenting upon, you know,

Moses coming down the mountain With the gorgeous face and you know putting the veil after he speaks to the people it doesn't mention the glory fading and All the other uses that I've looked at Well, the term doesn't have fading.

So I'm just trying to understand. Is there something I'm missing or you know, is it a bad translation? I don't really like to say it's a bad translation because then yes is pretty good, but Just wanted to see what your thoughts were well

Just Looking at it. I See that it's a very common word for Paul so all

I can give you is Looking at lexical forms of a term remember that especially

When being used as a participle, which it is for example in verse and three seven 311 313 when you're when you're translating participles participles are the least parcels and infinitives are the least like English correspondence and Very frequently where you're going to choose within the semantic

Domain of the meaning of a word is going to be determined by the function of the participle in the sentence So for example in 313

I start tell us to cut our gum menu Is going to be determined in a in a sense of I start tell us so there's something about an ending here

But it's given that it's appearing in the in the sentence as a present participle

I think the translation is attempting to bring out that present Participle and hence the idea of fading that just off the top of my head without having looked at anything on this subject

Just looking at the text that would be The first thing that would cross my mind as to why that would be now.

It's it's a regular verb In 314 and notice it's translated very differently.

It is removed in Christ. So clearly All the way through three and then

I'd want to look at all the uses in 1st Corinthians because there's a bunch of them there and as a bunch in Romans as Well, I'd want to I'd want to try to establish a

Pauline usage, but very clearly in chapter 3 He's playing off this term. And so we'd have to compare each one and then look at I would want to look at its

Uses in if it's even being used and from what I'm seeing here It's not the term that's being used in the description of what happened with Moses in the

Septuagint So that in itself could be significant because Paul is so very closely related to the

Septuagint language So why is he using a different term? Those would be the things that I'd be looking at if I was preaching through 1st

Corinthians chapter 13 Which I have not our second Corinthians chapter 3 which I have not done to try to answer some of the questions that you have

There but not having done that that study I don't want to stick my nose out any farther than that other than saying that's that's where I'd start is

Why isn't he using the language in the Septuagint? And what forms is he using here? And are they playing off of each other?

Okay, I appreciate it. That's where I go. So I'll tell you what Ryan, you now have an assignment get back get back with me on that Let me know

Because someday I'll have to preach through 2nd Corinthians 3 and you'll have I'll be one leg up because You did did the homework for me?

So let me know what you find out. Thanks, Ryan. All right. Thanks for calling 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 let's talk with Richard.

Hi Richard Hi, dr. White. How you doing? Good. Thank you for taking my call. I have two questions about the

Golden Chain of Redemption I'm going to a Bible study and I'm the only

Calvinist among six other Armenians and We were talking about We were talking about it and when

I referred to Even just referring to this passage as the

Golden Chain of Redemption drew all what are you talking about kind of response that I'd like to know how you would respond to they said that that Expression the

Golden Chain of Golden Chain of Redemption is just a man -made

Term that really has no basis in the text there. That's my first question

Okay. Well, hold the second one and As long as you're not saying that this is some you know, you have to refer to this as the

Golden Chain of Redemption It is an accurate description of Actions that God takes that brings about the final redemption of God's people

That's what it's about. That's why it's called the Golden Chain of Redemption there's all sorts of Does does he do they have an objection to talking about the

Good Samaritan? I? Mean, he's not described that way. He's never called the Good Samaritan.

So I guess we shouldn't use that either I mean, it's just a description of a particular text that that accurately describes its content so it almost sounds at that point that that there's a picayune level of We're just going to find something to disagree with the sake of being disagreeable

Which which doesn't really help accomplishing a lot Okay, right

Yeah, I kind of felt that way, too The second question we were we were still talking about Talking about the passage and when we got to verse 34

Where it says who is the one who condemns Christ Jesus is he who died Yes, rather who was raised who is at the right hand of God who also intercedes for us?

Kind of the leader of the group he asked me if There is no possibility that the elect can fall away

And why does Jesus intercede for us Wow, really? Yes, that's what he said

He said the fact that Jesus intercedes for us must mean that we can fall away and that's why he intercedes for us

Talk about having a backwards view of salvation The very reason that we do not fall away is because Christ intercedes for us not the other way around It's amazing when someone views the gospel in such a man -centered way

That they could say well if you if you can't fall away then Christ wouldn't receive you the whole reason

That a person is secure in their relationship to God is because as Hebrews chapter 7 says he is able to save the uttermost

Or completely or forever those who draw nigh unto God by him Seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them.

That is the grounds upon which a person has confidence so to turn that into a

A Means of saying well, he has to intercede for you, but he might fail.

Anyways is an amazing Reversal of The plain meaning of the text that is just it's it's very disturbing to hear that kind of thing

It really is. Well, yeah, it is, you know when when we talk about Predestination there's always this

Attitude that comes up that when we talk about Predestination they're thinking of fatalism.

Yeah, you know, they're not thinking of biblical Predestination in the in the eternal purpose of God They they really think about fatalism that if it's predetermined

We don't need to do anything and I keep running up against that attitude so often, you know, it's like I Can't get anywhere.

Well, I guess I've just got to ask you Richard is is there a particular reason why? You're in this situation rather than one with fellow believers who would be in harmony with you.

Is this the only thing that's available? Yes Right. It's about the only thing that's available.

There are very few I live in South Alabama and this area is

Is filled with Full gospel Pentecostals and you just don't find monergistic

Christians down here Yeah, they're pretty rare. Yeah. Well, I understand that can be that can be a real problem as far as it becoming very much a drain upon a person because you you do have a

Traditional mindset that is very man -centered and it does not very often show itself open to an examination of Those traditions from a biblical perspective and the result isn't isn't easy and So obviously

I would pray that the Lord would open up a work in that area I'm sure you've looked but That the

Lord would lay upon someone's heart to start something there, but It is difficult to on a regular basis.

And in fact, that's you know, I'm not a I'm not a person leaves a church Easily, I'm not a church hopper, but I I left the last church

I was in it's been 20 years now, but I left last church. I was in only slowly and unwillingly and Basically being forced out the door by just the consistent inconsistency

That I could not live with and when you have that kind of a man -centeredness

That would look at something as awesome as the intercessory work of Christ and turn it into a reason to not believe

In the perfection of the work of intercession That would be rough That would that be the type situation where I'd be going does my job allow me to move someplace else?

Where I can find a fellowship because I had to find a fellowship I could I just could not Continue pursuing the ministry.

I was pursuing and and do so in that kind of a context. It just yeah I didn't didn't have it in me. So There's there you go, but yeah, obviously you're you're right in both both contexts and The very point of verse 34 is that there is none who can condemn

Because it is Christ who stands in our place and the very in the very presence of the Father having obtained eternal redemption

I mean, it doesn't get any plainer than that and yet man's traditions can be extremely

Extremely strong. It is it is truly amazing All righty. Okay.

Okay. Thanks Richard. Thanks. Dr. White nevertheless. Bye. Bye Yeah, that's uh, let me tell you something folks.

Let let me I don't want to be a scold Right at the end of our

Christmas Eve's Program here, but if you are in a church

First of all, let me truly scold those of you who are not You're in rebellion against the

Word of God Hebrews 13 17 tells you that you need to be in subjection those have the rulership over you and if you don't have anybody in That situation then you're not doing what's right and at least

Richard is attempting to do what's right And so we pray for people like Richard But if you're in a church and You regularly hear the sound balanced proclamation of the whole counsel of God where your elders have shown themselves to be men concerned about rightly handling the

Word of Truth and They are seeking To instruct you in the ways of godliness and they're laying before you the whole counsel of God and are seeking to specifically examine themselves for the traditions of men and only give you the the living

Word of God if you're in a church like that and You don't thank God every day for it shame on you

Because you need to realize The blessing that you have and there are a lot of people and I mean a lot of people

That would give almost anything To have what you have to have that kind of regular godly instruction

Encouragement and fellowship. It's so easy To pick on the negatives.

It's so easy to focus upon the things that are lacking Rather than have your heart filled with Thanksgiving at the banquet table that is provided to you on a regular basis out of the

Word of God and Many of the churches we have in this land. Now, there are a lot of churches that are really bad.

There's no question about that but if you are in a solid church and you are getting that kind of Teaching then you should be a person who is rejoicing

Greatly on a regular basis and giving thanks Well, Lord willing next

Tuesday. We'll be back to our regular schedule I'm not exactly sure what we're gonna do on New Year's Eve, but we'll see how it works out

I think might just I don't know. I don't see a reason why we wouldn't do it normal normal schedule on New Year's Eve But we'll see

But certainly next Tuesday Lord willing me back here on the dividing line your phone calls and discussions about the

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