Ligon and Sean's Big Moment - Part 4

Alright everybody, hope you had a good weekend, a good Lord's Day, a good Easter holiday, everything.

I hope it was great, I hope you had a great time. I definitely did, so I don't know why I'm getting so aggressive with you.

But hey, there we are, there we are. So we are going to get back into this

Ligon Duncan interview. And we're heading into the section that I already covered.

And, you know, I'm going to cover it again because it's just that awful. But in any case,

I wanted to just... There's a couple things I wanted to say at the outset here. I actually got a phone call from a pastor friend of mine.

And, you know, he kind of rebuked me a little bit. He rebuked me, yeah. And, you know, it wasn't all that serious.

But he was serious, and I thought he made a really good point. And I think he was right.

So I wanted to address it right now. He said that while he agreed with my content on Ligon Duncan, and essentially that he was lying and that, you know, it wasn't good, he did kind of question the rhetoric that I use.

He was tone policing me a little bit. Not really, but sort of. And this guy agrees with my tone most of the time.

But he said in Ligon's case, though, he's an elder, right? And he even mentioned, A .D.,

that he was an elder. And, of course, that doesn't change the fact that he's lying. You know,

I think he's actually really lying. But you call them a snake, and according to this pastor friend of mine, in his mind, that really kind of means that he's like an unbeliever.

Like he's someone that is who he is fundamentally. That's his nature. He's a snake.

And I definitely see his point. Because here's the thing. First of all,

I don't mean to say that he's an unbeliever. I don't think Ligon Duncan is an unbeliever. You know, most of the people I criticize,

I don't assume that they're unbelievers. In fact, I did a video about that a while back. You know, some people

I have my suspicions on more so than others. But I don't just, everyone that I criticize or whatever,

I don't assume that they're an unbeliever. So I just want to make sure that that's clear. I don't think Ligon Duncan, because he's against the

Moscow mood and decided to multiple times lie about some of my friends, I don't think that makes him an unbeliever.

You know what I mean? That would be a pretty grievous standard if I applied it to everybody. In any case, so maybe

I shouldn't have called him a snake, right? And maybe I shouldn't have, you know, I wasn't saying that he was an unbeliever, but maybe

I shouldn't have said that that's his fundamental nature. In fact, in that video, Sean DeMars, I think

I said he was being a weasel or he was a weasel. And then I took it back and I said, hey, he's not real.

I'm not going to say he's a weasel, but he's definitely acting pretty weaselly here. So I'm capable of making that distinction and I just didn't make it.

And here's where I think it becomes problematic. Like you might say, A .D., that's not that big a deal. What's the difference? You know, he's lying like a snake or he is a snake, right?

What's the difference? And I think it does make a difference, right? Because I do believe that the natural order that God has created into the world requires us to treat our elders differently, especially when we're rebuking them, like when we're confronting them, when we're trying to point out problems with what they're saying.

We need to do that. You know, the Bible does say, do it, rebuke him as you would an older man.

And my pastor friend brought that passage up to me and he asked me, he said, hey, D., I know you think about this stuff a lot.

I know you're a thoughtful guy. What does that mean? And I think I said to him, well, it's got to mean something.

It's a funny joke, but it's true. It's got to mean something. So I guess my point is

I should not have called him a snake. I really shouldn't have. And what

I want to avoid is to make valid points about Ligon Duncan, which

I completely think my points were valid. He lied, and we're going to get into it a little bit more in depth in just a moment.

So I'm making valid points, but what I don't want to do is simultaneously subvert

God's order, right? And so when I'm pointing out the fact that my elder

Ligon Duncan has lied, I have to do it differently than I might with Sean DeMars, for example.

You know what I mean? Or like Scott O 'Neill or Josh Bice. If I was disagreeing with them on something,

I mean, we're basically the same age. You know what I mean? It's different. It's different. And look, don't take it up with me.

Take it up with God. It's God's rules, right? So I wanted to take that back, and obviously, if you could help me out, that would be great, but I've got other people as well.

If you see me doing that kind of stuff again, let me know. This is why I don't use the word boomer as a dismissive term.

If you notice, a lot of people that I know use the word boomer all the time, and some of them,

I think, use it appropriately. There's a good way to use it, I think. But then there's a very dismissive, sort of very subversive way to use it too.

I don't really ever use the word. I mean, I may have in the past on occasion, but not ever as that kind of dismissive sort of thing.

Same kind of thing. You might be making a very valid point against someone who is a boomer, but when you do it in that very disrespectful, dismissive kind of way, you're making a good point, but undermining yourself at the same time.

So anyway, all that to say, wanted to start there. Let's begin.

A click -baity kind of, ooh, for the views question, so just so we should know what's coming.

I genuinely want to know, because when I think, what do I want the young men in my church to be like?

What are we discipling them towards? And I'm not flattering you. That's a sin. I think Love, Lig and Duncan doesn't move an inch on the gospel, right?

Doesn't move an inch on cultural things. Now, I know some people have disagreed with that. Let me make sure my audio is on here.

Okay. This is what Sean DeMars is saying here.

When I think about who I want my people, my church to be discipled into being like,

I think Love, Lig and Duncan. That's a weird thing to say. Love, Lig and Duncan. Is that what people call them? Love, Lig and,

I don't know. Love, Lig and Duncan. Because you don't move an inch on the gospel, you don't move an inch on cultural issues.

Lig and Duncan. Lig and Duncan. Now, the gospel,

I'm assuming he means gospel proper. Okay. Let's give him that one. I'm sure we could all quibble and find issues and stuff that we could fight about.

Let's just be generous. Give it to him. He's got it, right? But cultural issues?

Lig and Duncan doesn't move an inch on cultural issues? I mean, I don't have any hair, but I could think off the top of my bald dome, five things just immediately.

Just immediately. Of things that he's moved much more than an inch on. Much more.

Lig and Duncan doesn't move an inch on cultural issues. This man wrote the foreword, literally.

And I mean literally, literally. Wrote the foreword to Eric Mason's book titled,

Woke Church. In that book, Eric Mason describes how

JZ, the Jigga man himself, money, cash, hoes, the whole thing. He's done much more for race relations than the

Church of Jesus Christ. Jigga man. You know, hard knock life, that guy.

He's done more for race relations than the Church of Jesus Christ. Woke Church. It doesn't get any woker than this book.

Lig and Duncan wrote the foreword. That's just one thing that he's moved much more than a mile on.

There are many, many other things. Many. Lig and Duncan is not the best example.

I promise I'm not flattering you. Flattery is a sin. Love Lig and Duncan doesn't move an inch on cultural issues.

I mean, I know he wrote the Church, Woke Church foreword, but hey. My goodness.

Didn't this guy's church close down for COVID? I mean, I don't know. It says something.

Maybe it wasn't a church. Maybe it was a seminary. You know, masking requirements. Vaccines. Who knows? Who knows?

I mean, I don't know. I've got some things off the top of my head that I could say. That's not what this video is about. We're going to move on.

But if you're interested in seeing all the ways Lig and Duncan has moved much more than an inch on cultural issues,

I'm sure in the comments section, you will find a litany of things. It's just preposterous.

Very preposterous. Certain decisions you've made. That's true of all of us.

Sure. But also incredibly great. He's not doing it right here, but what's the deal with that?

Just incredibly Catholic. Even in this interview, the way you've spoken about brothers and sisters with whom you have minor to significant disagreements with.

I'm like, that's what I want for our guys and our gals. So you see the genius of this, right?

What they're doing is they're drawing a stark contrast. This whole episode, like I said in the last video, is about ripping

Doug Wilson a new one. It's about ruining Doug Wilson's reputation and,

I guess, his friends too, Doug Wilson and friends. And so the whole episode is about, see, you can have good disagreements and be like love

Lig and Duncan and never move an inch on cultural issues. But now we've got Doug Wilson, and let's go ahead and ruin his reputation, drag his name through the mud.

Let's just do that. Let's just do that. It doesn't matter if we lie or not. That's what this whole episode is about. It's very well set up, to be honest, because they just spent 35 minutes praising

Tim Keller, praising Lig and Duncan. This is the way. This is how we do it. It's status quo from here into eternity.

And this is the contrast that they're drawing. Anyway, what I was going to say was I decided to say it anyway.

If you notice, Sean DeMars, he often asks questions with his eyes closed. It's kind of like a

Pokemon character. Oh, Pikachu, how are you feeling today? Why does he do that?

He asks questions with his eyes looking like a Pikachu, a Pokemon character. I don't get it. I don't get it.

Pikachu, use Electroblast. Thoughts on the Moscow mood conversation?

Yeah. I really loaded that up, didn't I? I think Kevin did a service to us writing on that.

I think Kevin realized that he was going to take a lot of incoming on that. He told me probably a million.

What I want to say here is my opinion on Lig and Duncan here.

As I've said, this whole episode was about this moment. This is the moment. This is the key moment.

That's why it's titled what it is and everything. You can see the logical progression. Everything that they talked about prior to this, it might at first seem unrelated, but it's all about this.

This is the key. This is the linchpin of the entire video. Everything is about this, right?

And Lig and Duncan went into this planning for this moment, and he planned to lie about Doug Wilson or to at least stretch the truth, right?

He's going to emphasize certain things that are going to make Doug look bad, and he's lying sometimes directly, but often he's lying by omission.

So he's omitting things that would make Doug Wilson look reasonable and only giving you the things that make

Doug Wilson look bad. And so if you don't know Doug Wilson, you're like, man, this guy's a real monster.

He's a real stain on the church, right? And so that's what Liggin's intention was.

That is my opinion. This was an intentional deception. Lig and Duncan, he may not be fundamentally at his core a snake, but this was a serpentine activity to do.

This was a devilish activity to do. That's what he did. He went in knowing he was going to lie.

That's my opinion. Now, I do not think that he expected or planned to go as far as he did because he went really far.

In fact, the first time I reviewed this part of the video, you can see the surprise on my face because I hadn't watched it yet.

Did I? Had I watched it? No, I don't think I had. I don't remember. You can go back and you can find out.

But I hadn't watched it yet. And so I was surprised at how far he went because normally they don't go that far.

He went really far. And so I interpret that as he is really angry, really, really angry.

And he went too far. And we've all been there, right? We've all been there where we get angry in a certain situation, and then we say things that we regret.

You know what I mean? We go, we get on a roll, and we just add on top of each other. We're on a roll. We're on a roll.

And by the end of it, we're like, man, what was I thinking? Like, we've all been there. And that's what you see here with Ligon Duncan, in my opinion.

He's been angry about this for years. And I think

I know where this comes from. I was talking to my Presbyterian pastor friend as he was rebuking me. By the way, brother,

I love you. Thank you so much for doing that. I appreciate that because I think I was wrong, and you were right. So there you go. There you go.

But anyway, he's a Presbyterian, and he understands Ligon Duncan and what it takes to get to the position that Ligon Duncan is in.

And when you're in that position, you've got to self -censor yourself so much, so much.

And when you say something, even if it's in a disagreement with someone, it's got to be you have to use the approved rhetoric, the approved tone, the approved positions.

Even if you believe something slightly differently, you censor yourself so that you're always on message, you're always approved.

And that is the way to move up in these kinds of circles, in institutional circles, in Presbyterian politics and stuff like that.

This is how you do it. You do it by self -censoring yourself, and you become popular in that way.

That's why Ligon headlines conferences. That's why Ligon gets invited to podcasts. That's why Ligon gets all of the book deals and the accolades is because he's been self -censoring himself for years to be on message at all times.

And then he goes and he sees Doug Wilson, and Doug Wilson took a different route. And Doug Wilson just says things just freely.

He says what's on his mind, and he even has an entire month where that's all dedicated to that. And he doesn't self -censor himself in the ways that Ligon has.

At least that's what his perception is. And he just says it. Whatever he believes, he just says it.

And he teaches the Bible, even the embarrassing parts. And he doesn't care, and he doesn't apologize. And yet he's gaining popularity.

And this pisses him off. This angers Ligon because he spent all his life with his balls cascaded, metaphorically speaking.

And now Doug is over here getting a lot of the same kinds of stuff in a different way and relatively.

Relatively speaking, Doug has influence. Ligon Duncan has more of the traditional style influence and maybe much more.

But even relatively speaking, he doesn't like that. He doesn't like that because he's sacrificed a lot to get to where he is.

And Doug hasn't really had to sacrifice the things that Ligon feels like he had to sacrifice. And it pisses him off.

And so he's been angry about this for years. And in his anger, he just gets on a roll and he starts saying wild stuff that doesn't make any sense.

He starts face -planting arguments that are just brain -dead. And the only reason he's doing that is not because he's not smart.

He knows that Jesus was the one who said, Herod, you fox, that kind of thing. You know, that kind of thing.

He gets it. He knows. But in his anger, in his fury, he just went in.

And he made mistakes. And he says things he regrets. And it's just crazy. It gets crazy. It gets real bad.

And I think that that's where a lot of the lies come from. That's where a lot of the lies come from.

Because what ends up happening is that – well, we'll get into it in just a second, right? In fact, let's continue.

I'm going to start there. We're going to talk more about that. A month or two before he was ready to release that.

Well, he brought it up at ETS, remember? And gave me sort of an early draft of it.

I think that's a good warning to send right now. I think there are some people in our culture today who are saying this is the model of faithfulness, lob grenades.

And I think it's really good for guys like Kevin who himself –

Kevin's got backbone. Kevin is willing to speak into things that he knows are going to get people upset about.

He's down for the fight. He's down for it. But that doesn't mean that you are the most faithful when you are lobbing the most grenades indiscriminately in every direction.

And when you are doing click -baity stuff on – it's one thing to larp faithfulness and courage on social media.

It's another thing to do it in real life. It's amazing. There's like six lies right there.

And they're all obvious lies. And I think he intended to tell these lies. He knows they're not true. But he just – he's on a roll right now.

He's starting to go in, right? And he's getting his talking points out. None of this is true. I mean, anyone who knows anything about Doug Wilson – and I'm assuming he knows at least something about Doug Wilson – knows that this is not true about Doug.

It's not larping on the internet. It's not only on the internet but never in real life. It's just not those things, right?

And so he lies by omission here. I mean, Doug Wilson is the guy – if you've never watched it, I would highly recommend watching it.

It goes to the University of Idaho to preach about – to teach about human sexuality. And people come in to protest him and yell at him.

And he responds to them with a lot of grace, a lot of mercy, a lot of humor. And, you know, it's very helpful because you can see someone who's confident in their positions, who's still very winsome, interacting with the most insane people around.

You know what I mean? It's just really, really helpful. I mean, and then, of course, there's the video series he did with Christopher Hitchens where, you know, he debates

Christopher Hitchens on atheism numerous times. And he just – obviously, he loves Christopher Hitchens.

He's there in person with him. He's in the car grabbing drinks with him and stuff like that. The affection for Christopher Hitchens is obvious.

The respect for Christopher Hitchens is obvious even as he's decimating his arguments. So this whole idea about just lob grenades and that's all you do indiscriminately on the internet, like it's just all false.

It's all false. He knows it's false. But he's pissed. He's pissed because Doug just does it.

He just went out there. He just did it. He said it. And he's been censoring himself for years. And this is not – this doesn't compute with him.

It doesn't compute with him because here's what's happened, right? It's very pharisaical when you think about it, right? You got

God's law over here, right? And they both agree with God's law. Doug and Lillian both agree with God's law.

And then you've got this other set of etiquette rules on how to do things in Christian institutions, right?

And Doug doesn't agree with this side, right? He doesn't because these are all made up. These are all institutional rules.

They're not God's law. They're different. They're different things. But Ligon's been following this set of rules for years, for decades even.

And he's been rewarded for it. He's been – you know, he's risen to the upper levels of Big Eva institutionalism.

But he's been doing this. Ligon has been following this etiquette rules set for so long that in his mind, they become one.

And now this etiquette rule set, which is not part of the Scripture, is like fused with God's law.

And now he sees Doug not following this, but he's looking at it like this and thinking, wow,

Doug is evil. Doug is not righteous. Doug is sinning because he's not following this rule set that I've been following for decades.

I've built my entire career and my life on this rule set. And he sees it as God's law.

And now he's pissed. He's pissed because Doug does lob grenades sometimes.

And according to this rule set, you never do that, at least not publicly. And so you don't do it publicly.

Well, now he's breaking God's law. This is in Ligon's fantasy universe. But that's not how it is.

The don't lob grenades part of the law, that's not part of Christian law. That's the rules of etiquette that in Ligon's mind he's fused together with God's law.

And so he's pissed. He's pissed, and I think he's a little bit envious as well. So that's why you get so many lies just all in a row, all designed to ruin a man's reputation.

It's really a sight to behold what Ligon has done here. And he is angry. This is Ligon angry.

And, by the way, you can also see a little bit of this come through in the early sections when he's gushing about Tim Keller and how great

Tim Keller was. And even though they disagreed that there was this great – you could see this etiquette rule set that he knows

Doug is not following that kind of pisses him off. You can see him kind of almost like admit that it's there because, remember, what he said was he got all smiley and happy, like reminiscing.

He's like, man, I'd much rather talk to my opponents privately.

And he gets a smile on his face. He's like, yeah, there was this one time when I was sitting in a room with Keller and Al Mohler and D .A.

Carson, name -dropping like crazy, of course. We were in a room, and we were just talking.

We were just talking, and we were just being very candid and open. And he says, you can't do that on the floor of the

Presbyterian General Assembly. Well, I mean, you can, Ligon. You can do that publicly.

He says you can't do it. But when we're together, we can just be open. Well, you can just be open publicly.

That's what Doug does. But he says, no, you can't. And in his mind, that breach of etiquette is tantamount to breaking

God's law. If you don't do that, you're wounding your brothers. You see, so in private,

I bet you Ligon is pretty based. In my opinion, I bet you Ligon is pretty based in private. But he's clipped his balls publicly.

And he's done it intentionally, and he's done it in order to gain notoriety, to gain power, to gain institutional influence.

And people choose to do that every day. In fact, I believe that Sean DeMars has chosen to do that. That's what

I believe. He's chosen to follow this etiquette set in order to gain influence, right?

But Doug has to be destroyed because Doug is over here like Donald Trump. And people hate

Donald Trump because he's gaining influence and popularity and all this stuff. And he's not doing it the traditional political way that every politician in history has ever done it.

He just is out there doing his own thing. And yet he's more popular than ever. And that just grates on people, man.

It grates on people. That's what's going on here. That's why he's so pissed off. That's why he's lied so often in this video.

That's why he goes so far because he's pissed. He's pissed. Doug didn't have to do what

I did, and yet he's still popular. That's what's going on here.

And you've got a lot of live -action role -playing going on in the social media world from guys acting like they're tough that put them in a room and you'd have them in a fetal position in three seconds.

And it's not good for that voice to influence our young folks.

We are going to have to cultivate backbone. But we're also going to have to cultivate a love for the world that hates us.

Bill Davis, who teaches at Covenant College, says that the most common question that he gets from his philosophy students is,

Dr. Davis, teach me how to love a world that hates me. And I don't want them to get any of their signals from the world.

I want them to get all their signals from the Bible. I want them to be faithful to the whole panoply of Christian doctrine.

But I want them thinking, how can I reach out to this lost world? How can I love people that hate me?

Not, how can I make them hate me more? How can I demoralize and demean them with every word that I say?

How can I drive them away from the gospel for the sake of branding and building my own? It's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable. The message he puts in Moscow, in Doug Wilson and Friend's position is, how can

I, they plan and plot, how can I drive people away from the gospel for the sake of branding? It's just a vicious, obvious lie.

This is when I started to think to myself, man, he went really far here. I don't think he planned to say this, but he said it. He just said it.

And I'm just thinking to myself, there is such an opportunity here for Ligon Duncan to do so much peacemaking.

Oh my goodness, what's this? To do so much peacemaking, to do so much bridge building, to do so much healing.

Because Ligon, you shouldn't have said that. And I know

Big Eva means never having to say you're sorry. That's part of the etiquette rules. I don't understand that.

It's very anti, you know, it's not God's law to do this. But I know you guys never apologize.

You never admit mistakes. Even when you say that, oh yeah, you know, you guys would say, you know, Jesus, why didn't you call

Herod a fox? Even though he did call Herod a fox. You were so amped up and on a roll and angry that you made such a basic error.

But you still kind of defend yourself. You don't admit the error. Like, I know that's what you guys do, right? But you have such an opportunity here,

Ligon. If anyone in my audience knows Ligon, you got to reach out to him. You got to reach out to him for his own sake, for his own soul.

And say, Ligon, you shouldn't have said that. What is going on here? My goodness.

Hold on a second. Hold on. All right. Mic's back on. All right. You got to say,

Ligon, man, you shouldn't have said that. That wasn't right. That was a lie.

That was an untruth. And it was an untruth in order to try to ruin a man's reputation. That's like a double sin.

You should have taken that back. And you don't have to even approve of Doug. Like, you can even give him a backhanded, you know, sort of like, he's still bad.

He still lobs bombs and all this stuff. And you shouldn't do that stuff. And he still has got theological problems.

But I should not have said that you're over there intending to drive people away from the gospel in order for branding.

I shouldn't have said that. That wasn't right. And I shouldn't have given the impression that this is all you do. I'm still concerned with how much you lob bombs.

But it's not fair to say that that's what you say is the way to be faithful, the best way to be faithful, the most faithful.

I shouldn't have said that. That was too far. I was angry. I'm sorry. And how much healing would happen there?

It's such an opportunity, Ligon. It's such an opportunity. Every time we sin, guys, this is for everybody.

Every time we sin, there's also an opportunity to show how great our God is, how much forgiveness is available in Christ, how much grace is out there for people like you, how much you need the grace also.

There's just such a great opportunity here for you, Ligon, to say, I am sorry. I should not forgive me.

I should not have said what I said there. You don't have to like Doug. You could say, I still don't think

Doug is good. But I shouldn't have went that far, man. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that.

It's my fault. It's my words, and I am asking for forgiveness. You know what would happen? You know what would happen?

First of all, God forgives you, of course. There's so much mercy in the Lord. But you know what would happen?

Doug would forgive you. They'd never mention it again. Moscow would forgive you.

They'd never mention it again. It would be done. It would be buried.

And it would be so helpful for the church, even local bodies where there's discord because some people like to read

Doug Wilson books, and the pastors listen to you and think that he's the worst person ever because they trusted you to tell the truth about him, and you didn't, and you failed.

And you're causing problems in local churches. You could solve so much of that by just saying, man, I shouldn't have said that.

I went a little too far. It's just that simple and that easy. Ligon, you've got an opportunity here, man.

So many of my friends have so much respect for you, even now, even knowing that you're a liar.

You've lied. They still have respect for you.

And, man, that would do so much good, Ligon. I'm not holding my breath. I'm not because I'm not naive.

But, man, I would love to be wrong on this one. You have such an opportunity, Ligon. Such an opportunity.

And even wound my brothers and sisters along the way. Correct, correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, Pokemon, yes.

Oh, Pikachu. You want some ketchup, Pikachu? You have an opportunity too,

Sean, because this is just so – it's just such a textbook example of projection.

Oh, man, I even wound my brothers along the way. What are you doing?

You provided a platform here for this, Sean. If any of my friends know

Sean, if any of my followers and listeners know Sean, you've got to reach out to this guy and say,

Sean, you just sat there while he lied about Doug Wilson, and you know it's a lie.

Sean, you know it's a lie. You've probably seen Doug in that University of Idaho video.

He's not just LARPing online. Yeah, he is online, but he also is in public. You know that Doug has had multiple debates with Christopher Hitchens in person and spent lots of time with Christopher Hitchens and treated him with respect and love and graciousness, even as he's locked in a battle with him.

You know that the people of Moscow, the people of Moscow are constantly in the public square doing various things, and that's only the stuff that we have online.

Look, at least if these guys were talking about me, right, and they were saying these same things about me, at least it could land a little bit, because you don't know what

I do in my private life. All you see is what I do on the Internet, right? So you don't know any of this other stuff.

But when it comes to Moscow, we have video evidence of other stuff that they're doing in person and being very gracious and loving and patient and treating people with kindness and all of this stuff.

We have so much video evidence of it, right? And that's just the stuff we see online. We don't see everything online. And so with me, at least it would land sort of, because you don't know what

I do in my private time. You don't know if I've ever, you know, screep -preached, you know, at college universities and witnessed to Muslims.

You don't know what I've done, right? You don't know what I do. But with Doug, we have so much evidence.

And so you yourself, Sean, know this is a lie, and you just sat there and let him slander these brothers in Moscow.

You let him lie about them, all intended to ruin their reputation and to make people distrust them and to make people dislike them and to give an impression of them that is false, hoping to destroy their reputation.

You just sat there and let him do it. And then you say, oh, and it's so terrible because then they wound their brothers in the process.

That's you. You're doing that. And so,

Sean, even you have an opportunity. I'm not holding my breath for Ligon, and I'll be honest, Sean, I'm not holding my breath for you either because I've just seen too much at this point.

I'm a little cynical when it comes to this. But I'd hold my breath a few seconds at least for you. I'm holding my breath a little longer for you than I would for Ligon.

You have an opportunity too. You could do so much healing.

You could do such a service to the church right now, Sean DeMars. If anyone knows Sean, you got to reach out to him and say,

Sean, man, you just sat there while this guy lied through his teeth, obviously, and he went really far.

And you just sat there and went, ooh, ooh, ooh. And you didn't say anything.

You didn't challenge him. And look, I know that was not this kind of interview. That's not the kind of interview you do.

You're not going to challenge Ligon Duncan. I get it, but you can now go back and say, you know, I thought about it, and man, that video, it went a little too far.

It went a little too far. I mean, again, you don't even have to like Doug. You don't even have to endorse him.

You don't even have to say that all of it was wrong. You could just say, I'm still worried about Doug and the Moscow mood. I still don't think it's the right way to follow.

I still don't think all these things. But man, some of that stuff wasn't true, and it wasn't the whole story.

Even if it was true, it wasn't the whole story. And so when you just listen to this, and you thought this was the whole story, you'd get the wrong impression about Moscow.

And so I'm sorry for letting this happen on my platform. I'm sorry for not challenging or at least offering some kind of nuance.

I mean, this is a Room for Nuance podcast. I should have offered some pushback or some nuance or something that made the real truth kind of come through a little bit more.

Forgive me, guys. Forgive me. I should have done that. I didn't. I had an opportunity. I failed. But now

I'm going to try to make it right. You could easily do that, and it would cause so much healing. It would show the greatness and the mercy and the grace available in Christ.

You are a sinful man. I'm a sinful man. We need the grace every single day. I should have said something.

I didn't say anything. And that was wrong, and I'm going to say it now. I'm sorry for letting this happen on my platform.

I didn't have to be mean to Ligon, but I could have said, well, you know, they're not just doing stuff online.

I mean, they also, you know, you could have said anything. Anything would have been better. I'm sorry, guys.

You know what would happen? There'd be so much healing. Local churches that are now in conflict, would there be healing there?

And you know what would happen with Doug and the boys? They'd say, no sweat.

Forgiven, easily, instantly, of course. It happens. It happens to all of us. We all get on a roll.

We all get angry. We all, you know, sometimes we get nervous in the moment, and we don't want to challenge our guests. I mean, even

CrossPolitik does that. I mean, we've noticed that. We've talked about this recently. CrossPolitik tries to be very agreeable with their guests.

That's what they do. It's part of their shtick. It's the exact opposite of what you'd get if you just listened to Sean DeMar's about Moscow mood, but they do it.

They try to be agreeable with guests, and that's a good thing, in my opinion. Some people don't like it. I like it.

I like it. Andrew Clavin's saying wild stuff about how Ben Shapiro is probably saved, and they're still trying to find ways to agree with him.

You know what I mean? That's what they are. That's what CrossPolitik does. They would forgive you instantly, man, and it would cause so much healing, and at least there'd be some honesty between us.

You don't have to like them. You could even give them a backhanded compliment, you know, whatever you want, and they would probably take it in stride and be very grateful, and that would be the end of it, and it would be awesome.

It'd be awesome, Sean. You have such an opportunity here, Sean. You've got an opportunity, and I promise

I'll hold my breath, you know, for a little bit, but I'll be honest.

I'm not holding my breath for that either because Sean DeMar's has bought into the fake rules of etiquette. He can't counter -signal again, and he won't.

He won't. That's my prediction. That's my prediction, and it's a shame. It's a shame.

This whole Room for Nuance podcast episode has been such a shame.

It didn't have to be this way. Sean, take the opportunity that you've been given.

You failed, and now it's time to admit it. It's okay. Christians are forgiving. Everyone here would forgive you instantly.

I really appreciate Kevin being willing to wade into that, and I think underneath that is it's not only a mood.

There's a theological view of the church, of the gospel, of fidelity, and there are problems at each of those levels.

Just in case I haven't thrown enough mud today, I'm going to say there's all these theological problems too, but we're not going to talk about them.

It's just totally untrustworthy. Everything about them is bad, and there's nothing good there, and yeah, you know, as simple as that.

And by the way, man, if we were talking about theology in a room, I'd have them in a chokehold and in a fetal position.

Yeah. Ooh. Ooh, yeah. Right after he talks about wounding his brothers along the way, he just lets them spit all that nonsense as well.

He's angry. Oh, there he goes. Pokemon. Oh, Pikachu. Return. About to ask you about Big Eva, but because you are one of the...

All right, we're going to save that one for next time. Anyway, guys, seriously, if you know Sean, if you know

Ligon, I never do this. I never tell people to reach out to people, but this is pretty egregious, and I think there's such an opportunity for healing and peacemaking and grace to abound and all this stuff.

There's an opportunity here. Reach out to him, and don't get aggressive. Just say, man, that was messed up.

That was messed up. You should probably apologize for that. You should probably ask for forgiveness there.

That was messed up. Man, that would be so great for the church. It really would. It really would. Not only my breath, but that would be great.