Q&A with Pastor/Elder Jim Osman - January 5, 2025

Kootenai Church

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:05

You're listening to the expository preaching ministry of Kootenai Community Church located in Kootenai, Idaho We pray that Christ is exalted and your spirit is blessed by the teaching of God's Word For more information about Kootenai Church, please visit us online at Kootenai church org

00:25

All right, it is question and answer.

00:32

So here are the parameters the goal of this is not to stump me That's relatively easy to do so Instead the goal of this is to answer questions that you would have about doctrine theology

00:44

Ministry Christian living Christian life anything like that. Even some personal questions are not

00:49

Unwelcome, so I will open it up to the floor and take questions. And if nobody here is

00:56

Willing to ask a question then we'll take them from online Peter will send out the word and the two people who are watching online might have a question

01:06

Yes Okay, the question is did the prophecy that concerning Damascus in Isaiah 17 did that happen in Sennacherib time?

01:17

Or is there something there yet future and I would have to read the entire chapter here to get the context of it

01:23

First five verses. All right Let's let's read it the Oracle concerning Damascus behold Damascus is about to be removed from being a city and will become a fallen ruin

01:32

The cities of Aurora are forsaken They will be for flocks to lie down in and there will be no one to frighten them

01:39

The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim and sovereignty from Damascus and the remnant of Aram they will be like the glory of the sons of Israel declares the

01:48

Lord of hosts now in that day the glory of Jacob will Fade and the fatness of his flesh will become lean

01:53

It will be even like the reaper gathering the standing grain as his arms harvest the ears

01:59

Or it will be like one gleaning ears of grain in the valley of Rephaim The first five verses

02:04

I hope I got that right. I don't have my my cheaters on so I It's kind of one of these things here with reading the small print

02:11

So the answer that question is I'd have to look at the details of this passage and with Damascus there is

02:17

I think apparently a With with I'm not gonna say all prophecy, but with much

02:23

Old Testament prophecy There is both a near and a far fulfillment. So you could have Details of this

02:30

Damascus taking place in Sennacheribs day where sovereignty is removed from them where invaders do come in And destroy the city for a period of time

02:38

Damascus could be rebuilt there could be a modern city named Damascus and yet the future Fulfillment of all of that would be would await the final judgment upon all the nations

02:47

That Daniel speaks of and that the other prophets speak of Yeah, I would be willing to I would be willing to To say the question the question is is this just a future thing or is it a thing in that day as well?

03:03

My my my guesstimate my educated guesstimate would be that their issues of this prophecy will fulfilled

03:09

Concerning some Sennacherib and Damascus. There was a judgment upon the Assyrian nation and Damascus obviously in Sennacheribs day

03:16

When the kingdom was taken away from Sennacherib and given to his sons killed him and given to the next heir to the throne

03:22

So there's judgments that took place concerning Damascus that fulfilled Isaiah chapter 17 now whether Every prophecy in this chapter was fulfilled completely and finally that's something

03:34

I'd have to look at in more detail Because there is a near fulfillment to prophecy as well as a distant fulfillment to prophecy

03:40

Hope that helps Okay, another one yeah, so Lanny's question has to do with Zipporah being upset with Moses about the issue of circumcision and casting the bloody foreskins at his feet

04:04

Thank You Lanny, I'd appreciate It's great. Do you know what you remember what chapter that is that exodus or Leviticus?

04:14

That's exodus It's after chapter 20 because that's the

04:20

Ten Commandments No, no, that's not right

04:26

Answer another one. All right, you try and find that Exodus 4

04:36

Exodus 4 25 verse 21 the

04:41

Lord said to Moses when you go back to Egypt see that you Perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which

04:47

I put in your power But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go Then when then you shall say to Pharaoh thus says the

04:55

Lord Israel is my son my firstborn So I said to you let my son go that he may serve me, but you have

05:01

Refused to let him go Behold, I will kill your son your firstborn now came about at the lodging place on the way that the

05:08

Lord met him and sought to put him to death then Zipporah took a Flint and cut off her son's foreskin and threw it at Moses feet

05:14

And she said you are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me. So he Lost my place.

05:23

Oh, so he let him alone at that time She said you are a bridegroom of blood because of the circumcision.

05:28

All right, so your question is concerning what part of that verse I Don't want to have to answer more than you're asking

05:39

Okay, I'll answer I'll try and answer everything that I think might be a question with this passage so it seems as if Moses himself has been disobedient to the command to circumcise his son and there is

05:52

We don't know all that is going on behind the scenes here But I think that what we can read between the lines is that Moses himself had failed to circumcise his son according to the

06:01

Abrahamic Covenant and the sign that God gave to Abraham and to his descendants this caused God to confront a

06:07

Moses with that sin and Seek if Moses were to be impenitent to put him to death and it is a poor who takes matters into her own hands circumcises her son and is upset with Moses cast the spore skin at his feet and Almost curses him saying you are a bridegroom of blood to me

06:25

So it it seems as if Zipporah herself was in some way resentful of the ordinance of circumcision and and the whole circumcision issue

06:34

That is how I've understood it in my would I be wrong there? it seems as if Zipporah herself is is upset that this has to be a thing and If that's the case, then we can assume

06:45

I think that's the case that Zipporah was not of Jewish descent And it could be the case then that maybe the reason that Moses was not circumcising his son had something to do with the influence of Zipporah in that decision and Finally God had told

07:00

Moses. You need to do this. This is what Moses knew what the ordinance was and And he did not fulfill that and so God in opposition to Moses seeks to put him to death and That is not because God was trying to kill

07:15

Moses, but failed to it is that this stern opposition of the

07:20

Lord to Moses for that act of disobedience would have resulted in Moses death and Zipporah ended up Stepping in circumcising her son and Thus fulfilling the ordinance and also

07:34

Shielding Moses from that act. It's it's interesting that Moses himself is not the one who does the circumcision and Other than the details that are there.

07:42

I don't know what else to make of that. It's right.

07:50

Yeah, she did it Yep fulfilling his role for whatever reason

07:57

Moses did not do that and Zipporah did It ended up saving

08:05

Moses life Her act of doing that. You know, that's a tough one good knows two tough ones right off the oh good

08:14

Paul You got a tough one Good observation and I'll repeat that for the recording

08:20

God allowed this incident to happen for the purpose of reminding Moses and everybody else involved that the

08:25

Abrahamic Covenant is still in force at this point and in fact God is in the

08:32

Exodus itself The Lord is going to bring Israel out of Egypt to give them that land

08:37

To begin that fulfilling that Abrahamic Covenant some of the terms of an Abrahamic Covenant. Yeah, good observation

08:44

Okay, any other? Yes, Amanda Okay so the question is in James 5 when it says to call the elders those who are sick call the elders and anoint them with Anoint the sick person with oil.

08:57

What is the oil and does our church do that? So this is not a passage this is a passage you dealt with in your series right

09:04

David I did I was not here for that Sunday school lesson and somebody said I should listen to it So I'm gonna tell you what

09:10

I think my I've never studied through James I'm gonna say that passage in depth but here's my take on James 5 that the anointing of oil there has a there's a medicinal quality to it and I think that what

09:21

James is saying is Those who are sick should call for the elders and there should be the application of whatever

09:26

Medicinal treatment there should be for this illness And if that does not solve this issue then the elders should pray and that that praying of the elders for healing should be accompanied by a

09:36

Confession of sin and repentance if that is necessary because perhaps the person who is sick In that situation is sick because of some personal sin.

09:45

So that's my take on it. Was that where you came to as well? Basically, okay So does our church do that?

09:52

The answer to that is yes, we do do that and we have done that so we have prayed for there have been times when as elders we've met in my office after service and prayed for some of the congregation who has

10:03

Cancer who has a diagnosis who has an illness or a sickness and they've requested that and we've met and and prayed for them as elders

10:10

We've done that as often as we've been asked to do that There was an incident an example of this back some years ago

10:18

How many years ago at least 12 probably 12 15 years ago we had a young lady in our congregation she was living with her parents and she was a teenager actually at the time and She came down with some illness and it plagued her for several weeks.

10:33

She ended up going into the hospital She was in the hospital for I'm gonna say probably two weeks and the doctors were

10:39

Baffled at to what was going on. They didn't understand what was causing these symptoms and it seemed the symptoms, you know went from almost ready to release her to And she could go home to and we need to keep her here and watch her and nobody knew what was going on So the parents called us and said will you come pray for her?

10:56

We did so all the elders went down. We stood around her hospital bed. And this was probably Memory serves somewhere around like 10 10 days two weeks into her hospitalization

11:06

We stood around the bed and and and we said first look is there any sin that you have committed that you can think of that might have brought this affliction upon you and and No, she hadn't so we kind of quizzed her about various areas of sin and types of sin and she said no then nothing had nothing that she was aware of and and I'd we had no reason to believe that she was

11:25

Living in some covert sin some undercover thing that she was keeping from everybody. She was a godly young lady still is and so we said well, we'll pray for you, so we prayed around the the bed and Had a great time of fellowship and worship with the family and and then we left

11:40

And she was released the next day and those symptoms were we're gone Sometimes the

11:45

Lord does that so I mean, I'm a cessationist Right, so I do people who say

11:50

I don't believe that God heals people that's not true. I do believe that God heals people I do believe that God heals people all the time.

11:56

And sometimes it's an answer to the prayers of his people. So we have done that Yes The the oil

12:03

I don't think I don't think that there's anything magical or mystical in the application of a certain kind of oil I think that the oil in the first century culture was used for medicinal purposes.

12:12

It was a medicinal herb. Sometimes the oil was Was the application to a wound they would put oil with various herbs and elements in it for healing purposes as ointments, etc and so I believe that what

12:24

James is saying is there you have applied with the application of the oil that is the Pursuit of medical treatment and and that does not solve it.

12:32

It is appropriate to call in the elders So if somebody came to us and said look I have this ailment and I could go to the doctor and have this ailment fixed or cured

12:43

Part we would say we would pray for you, but we would also counsel them you need to apply the medical technology and the medical

12:52

The medical ability that we have in this age to this issue There's nothing wrong with pursuing the gifts that God has given to doctors or to pursuing the application of medical technology

13:03

To an ailment or an illness I think that that is one of the ways that God by his good grace has provided for us to be healed in in our age

13:10

All right, yes back here

13:20

Yeah, the word anoint does kind of communicate the idea of of having some sort of a of an anointing ceremony

13:28

But if it just means to apply the oil Apply the medical remedy or apply the oil to that salve or to that issue

13:36

As part of that prayer process and I think that to put it in one sentence I think

13:41

James's point is if you are sick and it is not a result of a specific sin that you're being chastened by or for and and that then do two things pursue proper medical treatment for the issue and Pursue the prayer of your elders of your church

13:58

Those are two things that we should pursue And I don't think that they have to fight against each other. You don't pursue them in exclusion to one another

14:06

But we pursue them together. There's nothing wrong with taking a little wine for your stomach's sake It's completely appropriate

14:13

Not condoning drunkenness you get what I'm saying the application of the technique of the ability to the application of the

14:20

The thing that would solve the issue do it Don't think that it's unspiritual for you to seek the advice or counsel or treatment of a physician or a medical professional

14:34

Right. I think there was one over here. Was there not? Nope, that this quiet this side of the room.

14:41

You got to up your game a little bit. Yes, Simon Over my 20 years of ministry where has my mind been changed?

14:52

Okay, so it's 30 years of ministry almost 30. So The first 10 don't count yeah the first 10 were actually where much of the changes happened actually

15:04

Okay, so over my years of ministry where has scripture changed my mind on some issues I'll give you a couple of them just off the top of my head

15:13

When I first started pastoring Kootenai Community Church, I was influenced by a book

15:19

You may have heard of it the purpose -driven church by Rick Warren So I gave that book out to all of our leadership and we went through that and we talked about how to become a more seeker friendly church and I was doing that with our leadership and sort of pursuing the idea of doing that as a church while at the same time reading books by John MacArthur and Other solid guys and listening to good sermons and studying scripture and It was about probably two three years into that process before I started to realize these two things

15:53

These these can't go together. These don't go together and So that changed my mind changed on that When I first started pastoring

16:02

I would have rejected The idea of particular redemption that Christ on the cross paid the price for his the sins of his people

16:09

I would have argued for a universal atonement saying that Christ paid the price that Purchased the salvation

16:15

Potentially of all people who have ever lived that every sin ever committed was laid upon Christ rather than just the sins of his people going through the book of Ephesians chapter 1

16:26

Changed my mind on that actually going through the book of Ephesians 1 through 5 changed my mind on that When I started

16:33

Ephesians chapter 1 I started I kind of got opened up to the idea of okay What does the word what does it mean that in him we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of sins?

16:41

What is redemption? So I just did a study of redemption redemption means that somebody is actually purchased from the marketplace of sin

16:47

So then I had to ask the question if if if Christ has purchased all men from the marketplace of sin all men without exception

16:57

Then why are not all men delivered from sin? Why do some of them perish if their sins have been finally paid for so as part of that process?

17:08

I Was kind of struggling through that issue trying to think it through I would have argued for a universal atonement and then

17:14

I Was kind of confronted with that study I don't know how to put all of this together and Then I actually had a chance to sit down and have a conversation with Dave hunt

17:22

I don't know if you know who Dave hunt is a famous anti -calvinist So I had a sat down a conversation with Dave hunt and he said hey a friend of mine tells me that You're kind of leaning this direction.

17:31

You need to stay away from that. That's bad doctrine That's bad theology and he was trying to push me a different direction and It was to no avail by the time

17:39

I got to Ephesians chapter 5 where Paul makes the argument that men are to love their wives as Christ loved the church

17:45

And gave himself up for her Who is the her it's the church? Christ he gave himself up for her the church

17:52

He purchased his church with his own blood if he purchased all men with his own blood

17:58

Then there is no distinction between the church and all who perish in which case then

18:04

Christ did not purchase all men who perish if he had all men would be saved

18:10

Otherwise Christ has failed to do what the father sent him to do in purchasing his people

18:15

So that was another example of something that was my mind was changed Oh Thank you, my wife can shine me into all the ways that my mind has been changed over the air

18:30

Thank you. Yes biblical eldership when I first started pastor in Kootenai Community Church I thought that this had a the church had a biblical church structure of a rotating eldership and a pastor who was not an elder and people nominated by the

18:42

Congregation the congregation have the final say and all of that and was actually put together by The pastor was two pastors before me and he was on the elder board when

18:49

I kind of came to the conclusion that this is I don't think that what we're doing here is right and sort of with great fear and trepidation

18:55

I went to the an elders meeting that had the previous pastor and the elder board as well as his father

19:00

And this is John Kinney and Dave Kinney. They were both on the elder board and I said, hey, I've read this book I think what we're doing here is not quite right.

19:06

I mean, it's close, but it's not quite biblical I want to give this book to you guys You guys read through this and the book was biblical eldership by Alexander Stratt And so I said

19:14

I'd read this book and let's get back together and think it over I got to teach on eldership in a few months and I kind of wanted to get your guys's take on this and You read it over in the next month.

19:24

We came right back in and and I thought no, this could be this could be just Horrible horrible conflict and Dave the one who was instrumental with a group of others the two pre two pastors two previous to me

19:37

At that elders meeting. He said I think you're absolutely right. What we're doing is wrong and we need to change it Which was just fantastic and then we worked together the two previous pastor

19:47

Dave and John and myself we worked together to basically change to a biblical form of Biblical eldership and and the

19:53

Lord has blessed it and it was by God's grace that Both those men were very gracious very gracious and in how they approached it.

19:59

So that was another issue that got changed either is there another And then

20:06

I'll probably say that I don't know if my mind was changed so much as my my

20:15

Heart and my mind were brought to a better a more clearer understanding of exactly what heaven is by reading

20:22

Randy Alcorn's book heaven I think if I were to put on a list of the top ten most influential

20:29

Worldview altering mind altering books that I've ever read heaven would be on the on that list in the top five

20:36

The greatness of the kingdom would be on that list in the top five as well Those two books probably did more not to change my mind so much as to Just take me from a very foggy understanding of certain realities to a very clear understanding of certain realities

20:50

Yeah, good question Thomas oh Well, that's a very good question you shouldn't be embarrassed to ask that that's a very good question yeah, so the the question is

21:02

Scripture says that if people have not heard of The message of the gospel and have not repented and trusted in Yahweh his provision of salvation so in the

21:12

Old Testament that would have been trusting in Yahweh's Word and and Coming to an understanding of who he is and believing him and in the

21:18

New Testament era It's in Christ that faith is focused in the person of Christ the person who has not done that perishes

21:24

And so what about languages that have been lost? Sorry, then scripture also says that We will gather around the throne every tongue every tribe every kindred every language will be represented there

21:35

So what about the languages that have been lost before the gospel came to them? And what about tribes and people tribes that have perished and have never heard the message?

21:44

How will they be represented in heaven? Very good question and Sorry, I do have an answer

21:55

I'm trying to figure out how far back into the explanation I want to go What do you think happens to the babies that die in human sacrifice abortion and miscarriage?

22:05

Where do you think they go? I? Think they go to heaven That's my conviction no,

22:12

I think they go to heaven and If they go to heaven then you have babies sacrificed died stillborn aborted etc from every tribe and Tongue on the face of the planet that will be represented in heaven

22:30

So what's that? Why do I believe that babies go to heaven? Okay, so I give sorry

22:40

I'll give you two arguments why I believe that babies who die go to heaven Number one because they have not committed any sin that is worthy of eternal damnation

22:47

So they either go to heaven or they go to hell So a baby who dies in the womb wakes up in eternal conscious torment

22:53

Under the fires of hell for what reason what justice is served for that baby that baby is

22:59

Imputed the guilt of Adam's sin, but babies are not punished for the guilt of Adam's sin Adam bears the punishment for his own sin

23:06

So Ezekiel 18 lays this out that the children are not punished for the sins of their parents or parents for the sins of their children

23:12

Everybody is punished for the sins that they have committed in the flesh so at the end in the book of Revelation when all the books are opened and people are judged according to the deeds that they have done in the book

23:23

Their books their misdeeds their crimes against God are recorded What sins has a baby in the womb committed the answer to that is nothing?

23:30

Is it a fallen creature it is but it has done nothing to warrant eternal

23:35

Conscious torment because that baby has never committed any crime against God It's great -great -great -grandfather

23:43

Adam has But we are not punished for Adam's sin. We are punished for the sins that we commit It is unjust for God to punish

23:50

Adam for his sin and then punish Every baby who has ever been miscarried or died for their sin for the sin of Adam.

23:57

That is unjust Second I would say then the question might be asked what then merits a baby

24:04

Standing in the presence of God if it's imputed the guilt of Adam's sin How can it stand in the presence of God?

24:11

Well, how do you and I stand in the presence of God we have been imputed the guilt of Adam's sin as well, right? But we are imputed what else we're imputed the righteousness of Christ so I Would suggest that the righteousness of Christ is necessary to be credited to the account of the baby

24:28

So that the baby stands in the presence of God not just forgiven but also righteous So it is imputation that saves every person who has ever lived

24:38

Abraham believed God and it was credited or imputed to him as righteousness imputation is what? Causes it is what brings salvation to every person who has ever lived

24:47

So the baby I believe is imputed the righteousness of Christ not on the basis of faith But on the basis of God's grace since it's his righteousness

24:55

He can impute it on whatever terms he wants he chooses to impute it to us It is imputed on the basis of faith

25:01

You need to see your sin understand that your sinner repent of that sin and believe upon the Son and in that act of faith

25:07

We are imputed the righteousness of Christ and our sins are imputed or credited to him The baby cannot exercise faith a baby cannot even understand what faith is or who

25:16

God is or what it is or what sin is Or none of that. So how does a baby stand a baby is innocent in terms of its own sin?

25:23

So I believe that because it is innocent in the terms of its own sin It cannot qualify for eternal judgment and instead the righteousness of Christ is credited to the account of that baby

25:32

So that it is able to stand in the presence of God. It's imputed righteousness

25:39

Wow Now the hands start going up here we go. Okay, there's seven what's that? Yeah, that's a good one

25:48

There's also if you want a bunch of arguments for this from the text of Scripture there. There's a blog

25:54

I'm hoping that this blog is still up. Maybe somebody can check it real quick and let me know but it's cripple gate blog I think cripple gate is still up There are two articles at cripple gate and these are good solid guys that write for cripple gate one of them is called

26:06

I think it's something 25 arguments from the Old Testament that babies go to heaven and The second part of that is 25 arguments from the

26:13

New Testament that babies go to heaven one of the arguments from the Old Testament that stands out and there are a lot of them like for instance

26:18

Job when Job says it would have been better for me never to have been born and to have endured this what if Job had never been born if he had died as a miscarriage in his mother's womb like he said

26:29

Oh, you know cursed the day that my mother brought me forth Oh that I had died and never seen the light of day died in my mother's womb

26:35

Would it have been better for Job to? Have died in his mother's womb and then gone to eternal conscious torment and never known the goodness and grace of God Or would it be better for Job to have been born to come to know?

26:47

Yahweh be a worshiper of Yahweh go through what he did and then spend eternity with Yahweh in in glory

26:54

Obviously, it would have been better for Job to have in that scenario Better for Job to have lived his life and gone to heaven than to have been died in the womb and gone to hell the only way that Job's Statement makes any sense is if in dying in the womb

27:08

He would have went straight to eternal glory and not to eternal conscious torment Another example is the children in the

27:14

Old Testament their passages I think it's an Ezekiel or Jeremiah one of those places and the blog post to cripple gate will will give you this passage

27:22

There's a passage in the prophets. I think it's Jeremiah where God calls the children who are sacrificed to Moloch my innocent ones

27:31

He refers to them as innocent and he condemns the pagan nations for sacrificing their children to idols and he calls

27:38

Those children who were sacrificed my innocent ones and he pronounces judgment upon them for what they were doing to his innocent ones

27:46

So why if they belong to God and they were his and they were innocent. I Fail to see how it is that they would go to hell

27:55

So there are there are a bunch of arguments like that in those two posts. So I would commend those to you Dave they are thank you.

28:06

And did I get the titles of them, right? She doesn't know what help are you then?

28:16

Okay. Yes, I Think I don't call it an age of accountability

28:21

I would say that it is an age of understanding and this is going to be different I think with every kid at some point for all of us there comes a point where we understand the concept of Sin and what it is and our guilt before a holy

28:35

God and I don't have to sort that out I don't think any of us here have to sort that out. I don't put a number on that.

28:41

It's 10. It's 12 It's 15. I think that different children will reach that age of understanding at a different age

28:48

So I know it is comforting to say like I don't have to worry about my children until they're you know 12 years old or whatever you put an arbitrary age at I think that they're

28:57

I think that what scripture says is that we are Accountable to God for the knowledge that we reject those who have received greater light receive greater condemnation

29:04

So let's apply that to a child is my two -year -old grandson Rebellious when he hears the command of his parents and doesn't do yeah, he is expressing

29:13

Adam's sinful nature. He is expressing his sinfulness He's expressing his rebellion. That is true.

29:18

But is he morally accountable for an eternal punishment for that at two years old? I don't believe that that's the case

29:24

So he is expressing his fallenness. Yes, but not every expression of fallenness is a

29:30

Guilt -worthy act of rebellion against God and his truth. That is what holds us morally accountable for our sins

29:39

So what age is that? I would say as a parent you communicate the gospel and share truth through your children at a young age as Early as you can you begin to you begin to just flood their mind and their heart with these biblical truths and evangelize your child

29:53

From the first time that they can begin to understand these concepts And then trust me.

30:00

Okay. What's the name of the article? Okay, what happens to infants who die the

30:08

Old Testament answer? I'm assuming the part two of that was what happens to infants who die the New Testament answer You'll look it up now you think that living in this age we could get faster answers than this but All right, so let me let me ask for any questions relating to this subject before we move on to another okay

30:29

We still have a couple. Okay, go ahead Jake. You can solve it with infant baptism.

30:36

No, I know. I know you're kidding I appreciate that. I appreciate the troll though What's that?

30:46

Okay Okay, good. So there's the principle that Okay so there is the statement in Exodus chapter 20 where God says

30:53

I will visit the sins of the fathers on the children of the third of the fourth generation So I I don't want to just sound smarmy and put this off on you know

31:01

Your responsibility to do this But I have old chapter on that in the book truth or territory if you have that book you can read about it there Basically, that is a that is a statement of comparison where the

31:10

Lord is saying the sins of the children I Will visit the same punishment on the children as I do upon the parents if the children persists in the sins of their parents

31:20

So the that's not a principle that says that a child can turn away from the sins of their parents But God is still going to curse that generation with the sins of its forefathers

31:29

That is what Ezekiel 18 specifically addresses when the when God says to the children of Israel You say that the fathers eat the sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge in other words

31:41

My daddy did this and now I have to feel the effects of it the fathers eat the sour grapes the children's teeth are set on edge, right the sourness like vinegar and and and that was a proverb in their day saying we're being punished for the sins of our fathers and Ezekiel flips that all around and says nope.

31:57

You're not being punished for the sins of your father You're being punished for your own sins It would be unjust and this is what God says Yahweh says it would be unjust for me to punish the children for the sins of Their parents everybody will bear the punishment for their own sins and then

32:08

Ezekiel 18 goes through this long Explanation he says, you know a man a man commits these sins.

32:14

He does all these iniquities. Will I not judge him? Yeah, certainly will but then he has a son who turns from all the sins of his father and doesn't follow after the sins of His father will

32:22

I punish that son for the sins of his father and Yahweh says no I will not punish that son for the sins of his father

32:28

Everyone bears the responsibility for their own sin and then he takes it to another step and he says we'll say that that man has

32:34

A son who doesn't follow after the righteousness of his father, but does all of the iniquity that his grandfather did

32:39

Am I gonna bless that third generation because of the righteous deeds of the second generation? No, I will visit his iniquity on him and everybody bears the punishment for his own sin

32:49

That's the principle of Ezekiel 18 and that I think is is throughout Scripture that that's true so in Exodus chapter 20

32:57

What you have is God saying? If I if I'm a sinner and God visits the iniquity on me and my children

33:05

Persist in the same sin that I'm walking in God will punish that same sin to the third and the fourth generation

33:11

But the next phrase in Exodus 20 says I would much rather Bless to the thousandth generation of the one who walks in righteousness so all

33:21

God is saying is I'm willing to to Pour out curses and wrath upon every single generation to the third to the fourth generation

33:29

But I would rather bless a thousand times more God is much more inclined to bless the righteous deeds of his

33:35

Saints than he is to just punish the deeds of the wicked But he will punish the deeds of the wicked to every generation that persists in those sins

33:43

So then what do we have in? instances with Achan where his entire His entire family is punished for that or the people who threw

33:50

Daniel into the lion's den their entire families are punished for that It is true that sometimes God visits a judgment upon an entire family because of the sins of the father

33:59

We it is wrong. Sorry. Let me let me afraid Let me rephrase that it is true that sometimes children have to feel the effects or the consequences of their father's sin

34:10

That is a true statement there are sins that I could commit that would affect my family for generations to come and Even if they walk in righteousness, there are sins that I commit that would affect them for generations to come

34:22

So that is that there is a sense in which the children will Experience consequences for the iniquity that a man or a woman commits and I think that in the examples that you gave that's exactly what you have happening there

34:37

There is a judgment that comes upon that whole family I I would never assume that the children of the men who threw

34:44

Daniel into the lion's den were themselves Yahweh worshiping righteous people who didn't deserve any kind of wrath

34:49

Nor would I make that assumption about any of Achan's descendants? I hope that answers that Alright regarding children heaven.

34:59

Are we still on that subject? Good Yeah, so good question God is going to judge people based upon their knowledge of truth and the light that they have rejected would that apply to Are you wondering about the adults of in those tribes who have never heard the gospel?

35:16

Because okay so now Romans 1 answers that question right that that there comes a point in everybody's life where they

35:24

Understand they know that there is a God for the invisible things of God since the creation of the world are clearly

35:29

Seen being understood by the things that are made even as eternal power in Godhead so that they are without excuse

35:34

So I would not say that that applies to the adults who come to who are bowing down and worshiping

35:41

Idols because that judgment that is described in Romans chapter 1 Comes to those who who are given up or given over to Idolatry who exchanged the glory of the

35:52

Creator for the glory of a created thing and they worship and serve beasts and animals and created Things rather than God so in a in a tribe of people who are worshiping idols who have never heard the gospel

36:02

They are guilty because the light of creation they have rejected makes them guilty And so their sin of idolatry and rejecting that light and not pursuing that light is what keeps them accountable before God And in in that tribe

36:15

Let's just isolate to that tribe in that tribe that children who are young who are small who are infants who are babies who die

36:20

Before they come to that understanding. I don't think that they are guilty before God for that same thing But at some point they're gonna pursue the same sins that their parents pursued and become accountable and guilty and without excuse

36:33

So is their judgment going to be the same judgment that is heaped upon? Say Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn or somebody who has received a tremendous amount of light and rejected the gospel

36:41

No, I don't think it's the judgment is the same there are degrees of judgment in hell Jesus identified that when he said it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the

36:50

Day of Judgment than for Chorazin and Bethsaida Because Chorazin and Bethsaida saw the works that the Son of Man did and they rejected that truth

36:56

Sodom and Gomorrah didn't have nearly the light They had the light of creation They didn't nearly the light that Bethsaida and Chorazin had and they rejected and Capernaum They rejected the that light and so their judgment is going to be more severe

37:13

Okay any more any more on that subject of of children and Babies and accountability

37:22

Jason. Okay. Good. That's a good question. That's a good way to to tie this up How does the doctrine of sovereign election and what

37:32

I've just said about children being imputed the righteousness of Christ go together? I believe that the election of God that God has chosen to save in Christ through Christ's righteousness

37:43

All the babies who die in that state so therefore election includes not just people who are imputed the righteousness of Christ by faith, but Election includes all of those who are imputed the righteousness of Christ by the grace of God apart from faith

38:01

And that would apply to the babies who are born so that you could say of a baby who dies in the womb that baby was elect

38:10

Now of the the person may be sitting here or that I pass on any given day

38:16

Who is capable of exercising faith in Christ hearing and understanding the gospel? I can't know whether they are elect or not until they come to faith in Christ But I do believe that we can say that the the the choice of God to elect or to choose in Grace who would be saved included those whom he had ordained should never see the light of day or die in a state of innocence

38:38

So election would include them by my view Jason Since faith is the gift of God.

38:47

Is there any reason those babies cannot be given the gift of faith? Well, if by faith what we mean is the mental understanding of truth that is followed by the

38:58

Volitional acting upon that truth that that all I believe is the gift of God as well So does a six year does it does a a baby who is six months along who dies in the womb?

39:09

Can we say that they have faith? I wouldn't say that they have faith in that way No, but I think that they are are are granted the righteousness of Christ for us who of whom faith is required

39:19

I would say faith is a gift wouldn't deny that at all It's a sovereign gift of God, but of the baby the the salvation imputed righteousness itself is a gift

39:27

It is not expressed in faith since the baby's incapable of faith in that sense But it is nonetheless just as much their salvation is no less a gift than mine

39:36

For me my salvation is realized or expressed in time through faith

39:43

So my salvation and faith happen at the very same moment. I am regenerated and faith is present

39:49

So regeneration and faith salvation grace justification all that happens in a moment with the child

39:55

I would say that I would argue the only thing that is absent. That is the one thing that they are not capable of mentally or To express that faith is not expressed in a child

40:06

I guess I should say that because not capable being expressed but the righteousness is imputed nonetheless The person who dies instantly after being regenerated and believing has no

40:20

Capacity to express faith in a sense that is true And the only biblical example that I could give would be the thief on the cross

40:28

But even the thief on the cross said don't curse this man. He's innocent. We're not we deserve this He doesn't so there you see it's really small

40:35

But there you see at least a modicum of growth in grace and sanctification for the man on the cross so Is it possible for somebody to have faith one instant and less than a second later to die

40:49

I guess that is possible But if that happens then I don't know what this

40:54

I could never say for certain what the state of that soul is But an individual who expresses faith and then goes on to give evidence of that faith expressions of that faith

41:03

That is where it would give us the confidence that there was actually saving faith there yeah, great hypothetical we could spend a lot of time on there, but Good question

41:15

All right. Yes, Jonathan Okay okay, so two issues here and I'm glad you brought this up because this is one of these issues kind of there's an issue with them at the core of your

41:26

Question that is being assumed that I want to deal with out the front It is my conviction that every passage of scripture can be rightly understood by the context in which it is written so I don't need to go outside of first John to come to the conclusion that what

41:40

John is describing here is The it is that the world is not referring to every single person without exception

41:49

No passage of scripture needs a cross -reference from outside to shine the light on it okay, so if if you have a if you have a passage of scripture knowing the only way

41:59

I can understand this is if I Quote all of these other verses around here. I don't need that. I can understand every passage in its own context.

42:06

So Applying that principle then to first John 2 2 when it says that Christ is our advocate

42:12

And he died or propitiation not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world This understood in two ways number one first a universal atonement that Christ's death is the propitiation or the satisfaction

42:25

For the sins of every person who has ever lived So world is just taken to mean every person who has ever lived or it could be understood as he is the satisfaction

42:33

Not just for our sins that is us the Jewish people or the people to whom we're writing

42:39

But that that he is the satisfaction that is made available to the entire world But the entire world is not propitiated in the death of Christ But the propitiation of Christ is what is offered to the entire world.

42:51

It's not just jews It is everybody who has ever lived. This is not an exclusive propitiation in the sense that it is not offered to germans or Swahili or Nigerians or egyptians?

43:06

This is the propitiation that is offered that has provided salvation for men of every tribe tongue and kindred So if the question is do

43:14

I need? How do I understand first john 2 2 I would say this that what john is saying is he is the propitiation of the satisfaction?

43:21

Not just for our personal sins, but he is the propitiation that is made available to the entire world

43:26

And he is the satisfaction for the sins of any and all who will believe not every person without exception

43:33

But every person without distinction Yeah, that is true But also keep in the context if I were to write a if I were to write a letter to our congregation

43:41

I'd say jesus christ is the savior and he's the savior for people not just our sins but for the sins of the whole world

43:48

Would you take that as a statement to mean that I believe that every person in the world is going to be saved? No, you wouldn't you would probably take that in the sense that jim's saying that look kootenai community church is not the only group of believers on the planet

44:00

Right, he is the satisfaction for our sins, but this satisfaction this propitiation Is is extended as far and wide as any and all who will believe?

44:09

And I think that that's exactly what john is saying So the question is do I need to go outside of that? I can go outside of that to the gospel of john and to other references in scripture and it shines light on this and makes

44:19

Me say okay that this is at least my my take on this is in keeping with what I see elsewhere in scripture

44:25

But if the only way I can build a doctrinal case from a verse Is if i'm quoting some other passage of scripture to make it to sort of take the meaning and flip it around to be the opposite Of what it seems to say

44:36

Then i'm abusing scripture. I don't I can't do that. I can't justify that interpretation So I can arrive at either understanding of that just from the wording of that verse itself

44:46

And then I would and then I would say okay. I have two options here. I'd step out Either one of these could be right

44:52

Which one of them is likely right? Neither one might be ruled out exclusively by the context of this of this one verse right near it

45:00

But I would I could certainly arrive one of those is the true interpretation of the passage And so since one of those is the true interpretation of the passage

45:08

Then what might other aspects of scripture tell me about that? Would it I need to pick the aspect of scripture that's in keeping with or the aspect of that passage

45:16

Possibility is in keeping with the rest of scripture So the rest of scripture can give me understanding that helps shine light on that passage

45:24

But the rest of scripture does cannot overturn the clear meaning of the passage of that passage itself Thank you for listening to the latest podcast from kootenai church

45:33

If you'd like to learn more about kootenai church or to donate to our church ministry, you can do so online by visiting kootenaichurch .org