May 13, 2019 Show with Kenneth R. Samples on “Classic Christian Thinkers: An Introduction”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at Iron sharpens iron radio .com

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 13th day of May 2019 and I'm delighted to have back on the program

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My old friend Ken samples who I've known since the late 1980s In fact,

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I've known him since he was still on the the staff Or should

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I say the the panel? Hosting the Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff.

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It's been that far back since I've known Ken in fact Ken was the speaker at the very first Bible conference

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I arranged in the late 1980s at Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, New York and I've arranged many many since then

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Ken is currently the senior research scholar at reasons to believe and today we are

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Addressing part two of his latest book Classic Christian thinkers an introduction and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio

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Ken samples Hello, my old friend. It's good to be on with you you

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Brought me way back to my time when I was Working at CRI and co -hosting the

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Bible answer man And I remember fondly that speaking in New York at your conference

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So it's a real pleasure to be with you and I really appreciate you having me on Yeah, I can still remember

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Driving up with you to the parking lot of what was then Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville and We were the first people actually

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I should say that I was the first person that was a member of the church to arrive and you were with me and because I was the first person from the church to arrive there was a

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Parking lot filled with people and a line of people waiting at the door who could not get in because it was still locked

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So I have very fond memories of that. I have very fond memories of dining out with you and my precious late wife

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Julie and I remember how high of a view she had of you and She would always

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Jokingly call you Ken Sampson. She knew your name was samples, but you would always say Sampson and I just have nothing but the fondest of memories

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Regarding those old times look forward to forging new memories in the future as well, brother

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Well the book that we are discussing today class classic Christian thinkers an introduction

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We already addressed heroes of the faith such as Irenaeus and Athanasius and Augustine and Anselm and I believe if I'm not mistaken, we are picking up today with Thomas Aquinas the quintessential

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Catholic philosopher and then moving on from there to Martin Luther John Calvin Blaise Pascal and CS Lewis am

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I right there on the Where we left off last week let not last week last time that you were on the program.

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In fact, that was last Month, I believe that you were on iron sharpens iron radio when we were discussing part one of this book

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Yes, you're exactly right. We're all the way up to the medieval Catholic philosopher Thomas Aquinas.

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Yes, and first of all Let our listeners know why you wrote this book to begin with for those of our listeners who?

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Who did not hear part one of this broadcast or this topic I should say There are many books that Both old and new some very contemporary some centuries old that contain the

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The the writings in summary form or or excerpts of writings of great men of history that are recommended to the the contemporary audience

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That the book has been or when the book has been written So if you could please tell us why this was an urgent Matter upon your heart and mind to get a book like this added to those other volumes

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Yeah, thank you, Chris. I Would say this I would say that if we look at the modern evangelical world,

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I think that evangelicals by and large And sometimes don't know what they believe or why they believe it, but I'm going to take it a step further

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I think that many modern evangelicals they don't know how they can how we as historic

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Christians came to believe what we believe and What I mean by that is that while the

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Trinity and the Incarnation are drawn directly from the scriptures Many elements went into defending and defining the

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Trinity and the Incarnation church councils heresies and things of that nature and Many of the people that I write about in my new book are really kind of the shapers of Christian Orthodoxy we see that early with Irenaeus and Athanasius critiquing

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Gnosticism and Arianism Certainly see it in st. Augustine who defends the faith a grace -oriented faith against the

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Pelagians and so oftentimes I find people that They feel that their relationship with God is very personal and of course it is

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But they know little about how historic Christianity unfolded through the centuries

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I also wrote it for another reason Chris both you and I were our former

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Roman Catholics and I Find that oftentimes the Catholic Church loses people out of the bottom that is

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People kind of grow up Catholic and for whatever reason they become dissatisfied with the

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Catholic Church but often Evangelicalism or Protestantism loses people out of the top.

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I've met many people Who have told me that one of the reasons they became a Roman Catholic or an

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Eastern Orthodox, but they didn't feel closely connected to history

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They felt that their faith was separated from kind of historical theology and church history

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So one of my attempts in this book is to try to convey that the church fathers the great theologians of the

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Middle Ages, of course the Protestant Reformers and others that this These are people that belong to the collective

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Christian community as a whole and I also wrote it because these nine people

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Are people that challenge me they speak to me. I see them as friends mentors

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And so I tried to pick people some in the Eastern Church such as Irenaeus and Athanasius Most of them are in the

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Western Church either Catholic or Protestant But all of them are very strong in such fields of theology philosophy and apologetics and You don't have to agree with everything they taught to appreciate them

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To respect them. And so those are some of the reasons I wrote this book and I hope

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People will read it and not just read my book, but then maybe Decide I'm going to read

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Athanasius' On the Incarnation or Augustine's Confessions Or I'm going to read

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Blaise Pascal's Pensees. So I love historical theology

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And I think that Christians today can learn a lot from the past Great and of course, there is great controversy and disagreement

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Amongst even our fellow reformed Christians even I would say amongst those that are in your current circles of Closest fellowship the the theologically reformed

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Anglicans even disagree on How much we are to use or utilize or make use of or promote?

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Roman Catholic scholars from history and even amongst my reformed Baptist brethren.

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There is a disagreement There are a lot of people even those that are very opposed to the modern ecumenical movement that would cite such

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Catholics as GK Chesterton, but it would be more on the under the lines of philosophy and Things that are universally agreed upon by both

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Catholics and Protestants But Thomas Aquinas is one of these controversial figures because I've had guests on this program

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Who were specifically on the show? either to urge brethren in Christ not to include him as a hero of Christianity because of the fact that he was unlike some of the patristic

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Believers that we make use of that are shared As heroes by Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, but Thomas Aquinas is someone who was in the

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Roman Catholic Church When it was actually more clearly Roman than previous centuries

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When it was more of a Catholic Church with a small C but I know that Men who

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I consider Modern -day heroes such as the late RC Sproul. He considered Thomas Aquinas to be one of his key heroes

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And then of course, I've had as I said before I've had people on the show like my friend Jeff Waddington, dr.

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Jeff Waddington who is on the staff or the faculty I should say at Westminster Theological Seminary he's an

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Orthodox Presbyterian pastor and he is Very apprehensive about Adopting Thomas Aquinas as a hero.

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So we have men who are very closely connected theologically and yet who disagree over this specific figure of history if you could remind us why to start with you would include him as Someone that the church should benefit from whom we should benefit the church at large should benefit from reading him

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Yeah, Thomas Aquinas is born in 1225 and dies in 1274.

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So he lives in the 13th century so this is approximately 300 years before the

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Reformation but it is also a couple hundred years after the great split between the

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Eastern and Western churches in 1054 so He is clearly a

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Roman Catholic But there are many issues That are still percolating.

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Let me let me make this point You're a flock. You're a flock Pelican the great

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Yale historian of Christianity said that when the

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Council of Trent anathematized Protestantism Unfortunately it anathematized part of its own

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Catholic community because prior to the Reformation there were great debates about the relationship of Scripture to tradition there was discussion about whether justification was distinct from sanctification or whether the two should be seen as one work of God There were lots of debates like that Chris I think that when you read

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Thomas and if you want to read Thomas you needed to be Sharp because I I actually think

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Thomas Aquinas may have been the brightest mind Christendom ever produced In many ways there are things you will read in the

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Summa Theologica or Summa Contra Gentilis His two most important books some of the things in there you will disagree with if you are a

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Protestant And yet, I think you will have the great benefit of hearing one of the great

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Catholic thinkers defend his distinctive Catholic ideas But secondly

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I think there are many things in the Summa Theologica that Protestants will appreciate will recognize as a a kind of general

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Christian perspective and so I Tend to be more on the side of the

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R .C. Sproul I appreciate Thomas I don't always agree with him But I think that some of his arguments some of his ideas his way of thinking are deeply profound and I think we have to recognize that there is an entire an entire historical school of thinkers that Catholics and Protestants are

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Are going to share in common to some degree, but surely when it comes to the sacraments when it comes to the authority of the

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Pope Thomas is going to agree with the Roman Catholic Church, but when it comes to teachings about grace when it comes to a

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Very high view of authority. I'm sure my Catholic friends will disagree with me when I say this

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But I think you could make a case that Thomas Aquinas's ultimate authority is scripture

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And if that's not the case He nevertheless has a remarkable way of Defending the faith by quoting scripture in fact his entire life.

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He preferred to be called as the Dr. Divina meaning that he saw himself as a teacher of the

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Bible So, yes Thomas is controversial But I would highly recommend people

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Consider reading my chapter on him and then consider reading some of his own work

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And evaluate him on his own ground Great, and we do have a listener in Suffolk County, Long Island Christopher From Suffolk County, Long Island wants to know

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I have heard that Thomas Aquinas believed in double predestination And I've also heard that he was opposed to the growing

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Adoration of Mary within the Church of Rome to the point that he thought it became idolatrous

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Do you know if any of these claims are true? Yeah, Christopher. I appreciate you raising those issues

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I can tell you this I don't think That Thomas Aquinas's views of election and predestination

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Were all that different not only from St. Augustine, but not all that different either from Luther or Calvin I think that there is a lot of similarity in their views of election and predestination

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Now with regard to the question of Mary Of course Thomas lives before some of the late

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Dogmas are set forth by the Catholic Church. Remember that some of the Marian ideas come relatively late

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Thomas of course would have viewed Mary through the Catholic prison, but to think of Thomas as Defending everything that Roman Catholicism would later affirm.

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I think it's somewhat unfair to him It's kind of like Again, and Chris you alluded to this earlier.

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It's kind of like looking back at through church history Thomas lived before the

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Protestant Reformation. Now, what would he have thought of the Protestant Reformation? Well, I don't know

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I would think he would agree with the Catholic view But I think he would agree that probably

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Catholicism in the 16th century needed reform I'd say something similar to st.

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Augustine. I think Augustine probably would have sided with the Catholic Church, but he would have started a

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Evangelical segment of the Catholic Church, but of course I'm speculating here It's kind of fun to speculate about some of these counterfactual ideas

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Well Christopher as long as you didn't win one last time you have won a free copy of classic

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Christian thinkers by our guest today Kenneth Richard samples, so please make sure that we have your full mailing address there in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York Well, let's move on we want to make sure we can get as many if not all of the remainder of the of the great figures from history that you have

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Included in your book as being among the great Christian thinkers or the classic

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Christian thinkers of course We could not have a book with this title without including

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Martin Luther father of Protestantism It's kind of interesting how you titled that chapter father of Protestantism and because there's even a disagreement amongst

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Lutherans even amongst conservative Lutherans on whether to identify themselves as Protestants not that they would have

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Theological ecumenism with Rome by any stretch of the imagination the Missouri Synod being one of those conservative denominations that would be opposed to that but The the idea that they

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Are anything more than those that seek to reform the

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Catholic Church and bring it back to its Roots the patristics and so on They sometimes have an aversion to being occluded amongst the spectrum of denominations and Protestantism but that perhaps is a different subject or a different time perhaps even with a

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Lutheran but obviously every Heir of the Reformation has to pay tribute in some great fashion to this great reformer

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Who is nicknamed the great reformer? So tell us specifically why you include him

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And I know that some of it is obvious, but give us some more enlightenment if you could

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Yeah, Luther is born in 1483 dies in 14 1546

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I Think one of the things I came across in researching Luther for this book is there are people who make the claim

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That of all the books written about individuals in Western civilization of course, the first person would be

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Christ so much of Scholarship has flown over the last 2 ,000 years about the person of Jesus Christ but some would argue that maybe the second most written about person in Western civilization is

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Martin Luther and I think that Luther is a critical figure

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I would say for example that I don't think you can really understand the essence of Protestantism Without some understanding of the beliefs and the events of Luther's life.

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I mean Luther Luther's parents owned a copper mining business and so they had some money.

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They knew their son was bright They wanted to give him a great education But Luther got caught in a thunderstorm and if you've ever been around Thunderstorm lightning, you know the fury of Mother Nature Luther feared for his life and he cried out

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Saint Anne If you save me, I'll become a monk. So he joins the interesting order called the

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Augustinian And I think Luther was looking for meaning and purpose and significance in his life

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Not joining the monastery would would give him that but in the monastery he discovers

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That by trying to be good following the teachings of the Catholic Church about issues like penance

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Issues relating to good works Luther says if there was ever a monk who could perfect himself, it would have been him

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But he discovers that the harder he tries to be good the more he discovers.

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He cannot do it and He is in confession for hours at a time

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Searching his mind. Is there any sin that he has not confessed? And he says in his writings that he began rather than loving

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God. He began to hate God. He saw God as as a judge

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And one of his counselors a man named Stoutfoot Recommended that Luther study scripture as a way of trying to ease his existential

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Angst and of course it is out of that study of scripture the reflection upon books like Galatians, Paul's writing in Galatians and Romans that Luther Rediscovers the doctrine of justification by faith.

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Chris, I think that to understand Protestantism and to understand the

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Reformation I think one must appreciate that that dilemma that spiritual crisis that Luther had

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That where do I stand with God? Does God really love sinners? Can I really find forgiveness?

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And what I find interesting here a quick story is that Benedict the 16th.

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This is Pope Benedict the 16th This is the Pope Emeritus who stepped down a couple years ago before Francis became

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Pope Benedict Cardinal Ratzinger, Joseph Ratzinger is his name, is

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German grew up in Germany and so Benedict the 16th went to the

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Evangelical Lutheran churches during his time as Pope and Talked to the

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German church, and he said this and I quoted in my book He said this question about where we stand with God, Luther's question, should be all of our question

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And I wish that every Patriarch, Pope, Bishop, Minister, Pastor Everybody in church leadership in all the branches of Christendom Would wrestle with Luther's question of where do

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I find forgiveness? How am I forgiven? Is it through the sacraments of the church?

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Is it through repentance? Is it through devotion to Mary and the Saints? I think that Luther his life and his belief reflect and birth the whole branch of Protestantism.

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And by the way, I don't think it's just Luther's Protestant Revolution, if you will, that he's kind of a pathfinder

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Because I actually think the the greatest systematic theologian of the Reformation was

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Calvin But more on him later Luther was a profound theologian.

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He has a lot to say about issues like the theology of the cross His catechisms are incredible Luther is a first -rate thinker and and theologian and I'll say it again

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I don't think you can understand the spirit of Protestantism if you don't read about Luther's life and read about The great ideas that he defended, sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, sola

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Christus, sola Deo gloria. I think that these are issues that my evangelical friends...

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I remember the day when evangelical meant Protestant. I'm not sure the word evangelical means that anymore

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It could mean any number of things and I often ask my friends who

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Who'd think about and sometimes convert to Catholicism, I asked them, have you read

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Luther? And I have a friend who's a Well -known evangelical who became a

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Catholic He had not read Luther and I said, I don't think you'd understand

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Protestantism without Looking at Luther's life and looking at Luther's Theological ideas.

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Yes, and I think that We should all remember That Luther, just like we all are, is a work in progress or was a work in progress

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But not all of us have the notoriety and the fame of Luther and not

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All of us are as read In fact, I'm not read at all because I'm not an author but Not all of us have the

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The readership of somebody like him globally and People forget that he was a work in progress and he was gradually

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Shedding things that he had embraced as a Roman Catholic that he some of which he continued to embrace as a

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Protestant But you will have Catholic apologists very often trying to dismiss

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Protestantism and The claims against things like veneration of Mary and the Saints and other things they will cite

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Luther, but that they fail to to bring into the story that Luther was gradually changing

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Pretty much until he he went home to be with the Lord. There were things that he was shedding. Am I not correct on that?

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Yeah, I think that's right. I think that Luther started out by wanting there to be a reform within the medieval

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Catholic Church I mean, this was the very purpose of nailing the 95 theses wanting to have dialogues about indulgences and various issues that relationship with the

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Roman hierarchy degenerated And it came to a place where he was called upon to renounce his views

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This is again a reference to you know, the here I stand idea

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Luther found it necessary ultimately to start a new branch of Christendom There and obviously there are churches that came alongside that at the time of the

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Reformation But Luther was Growing he wasn't a perfect man

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He was brilliant He had sometimes an anger problem

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There were things that he said about Jews late in life that I think are deeply unfortunate, but he was somewhat ill at the time

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Was angry because he thought I've I've brought the gospel back, but you still reject it

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None of these people that are right in my book are perfect But of course that encourages me

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Chris because I'm an imperfect man I I am a person who has been a

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Christian a long time But it's still challenging to love God and love my neighbor as myself what

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I find in Luther is an extraordinary Christian an extraordinary thinker

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And a person and and again when we look at the before bodies of Protestantism Lutheranism reformed

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Anglican and Kind of the broader Baptist tradition we recognize that there are differences there and Lutherans and Anglicans have a greater connection to liturgy things of that nature so There are going to be people in church history like Luther that are going to be a lightning rod, but I would still say that I think everybody can benefit and It's not just me saying that I think

30:22

Benedict the 16th essentially said Luther had a point and we ought to consider that point

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And I want to remain on the subject of Luther a little bit when we return from our first break before we move on to our next great

30:37

Christian thinker or classic Christian thinker in your book and If anybody would like to join those who are already waiting to have their questions asked and answered

30:46

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country residence if you live outside the USA Don't go away.

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God willing. We are going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

41:56

Kenneth our samples senior research scholar at reasons to believe we are addressing part two of a

42:04

Discussion that we began last month on Ken's latest book classic Christian thinkers and introduction

42:10

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris arnz and a gmail .com

42:18

and Please as always give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence

42:24

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal private matter

42:30

And can we do have an anonymous listener who says I have very close friends and ministerial associates who strongly oppose my affection for Martin Luther and My upholding of him as one of my great heroes of the

42:50

Christian faith and of history they claim that since he was an anti -semite and The Nazis even borrowed some of his writings to Bolster their own sinister and diabolical actions that we should never consider him a hero or make positive

43:08

Use of whatever he has written or accomplished What do you make of this?

43:14

That's a very common thing that I've heard I'm sure you've heard it too can and I don't know if you would concur with this, but I have heard from some

43:23

Lutheran scholars That Luther was never an an anti -semite in the sense of being ethnically opposed to the

43:37

Jews he always sincerely and passionately wanted their conversion and Believed it would happen and was sorely disappointed when after the

43:48

Reformation. They did not come to Christ in their masses and That he unlike the

43:55

Nazis the Nazis could not care less If Jews came to Christ, in fact, they were they would root out the

44:03

Jewish histories or ancestries of Of even

44:08

Christians in Germany in the early 20th century That it didn't matter if they were professing

44:17

Christians and members of churches if they had Jewish ethnicity They were hauled off to the concentration camp.

44:24

So there there is a huge difference. Is there night? I mean, I think that That this would be one way to respond

44:32

To those who don't think we should make use of Luther in any way Yeah, I I addressed the topic of Luther's Anti -jewish comments in my book.

44:43

It's brief I would say this and this is not an attempt to excuse what

44:50

Luther said because I've read his words And I find them Offensive I find them unfortunate

44:57

But but I think understanding the context can be very helpful Number one,

45:05

I think that Luther made these comments when he was older struggling with health and therefore

45:13

Probably didn't exercise the kind of judgment that he should have. I think there is also a point that you

45:21

Made it earlier and that is that I think Luther thought that once the gospel had been

45:28

Rediscovered and removed from what Luther thought were corruptions by the medieval

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Catholic Church He thought that Jews would embrace Christ as their Messiah when they didn't

45:41

When they were quite critical of him he Was very angered by this and I I think one of Luther's struggles.

45:51

I mean the guy has many gifts. He's brilliant He's a visionary first -rate intellectual deeply spiritual but Sometimes his anger could get the best of him just as it does with many of us

46:04

I think also that there is evidence that Luther thought maybe he was living in an apocalyptic time in which things were

46:16

Immediate and I would add this and you touched upon it Chris that none of Luther's Criticisms are racial in nature.

46:25

They are largely theological and of course Hitler and the

46:31

Nazis would use anything to promote their Hateful ideology, but you know, my father was in the

46:39

Second World War In fact, one of the infantry divisions my father was part of liberated a

46:44

Jewish camp during the Second World War I don't think the anti -semitism present in national socialism

46:54

Gets its fundamental ideas from Luther. So I think Luther made a mistake

47:02

And I think that in Maybe a clearer context he would never have done it

47:08

But the reality is that even great men can make mistakes in judgment

47:13

So that's kind of where I come down on it. I do see Luther as an extraordinary

47:20

Important Christian thinker and again appreciating them just as I said with Thomas Because I'm a philosopher there's a lot in Thomas I like where some theologians may you know have criticism

47:35

Luther was one of the most important people not only in the Christian Church, but in the history of Western civilization good and bad nonetheless amen, and Don't you think that we also?

47:49

Should not extract People from the era in which they lived that I do not mean that we should excuse their sins but better understand the areas where there were sinning for instance

48:05

Luther's hostile rhetoric towards the Jews Was something that was not very unusual for any religion in the 16th century and the centuries prior you have the very hostile

48:23

Rhetoric that existed amongst all well -known religions against other religions.

48:29

In fact, you even have in the Talmud The Jews saying horrific things about Jesus Christ That you would never hear an

48:37

Orthodox Jew today at least saying in public or you'd rarely hear Them say these things in public because obviously it would bring the wrath of Christians or professing

48:51

Christians I should say against them or at least they believe it would And when

48:57

I say wrath, I don't mean that there would be physically physical violence against them. But people would would

49:03

Mark them out as being bigoted if they were to use these kinds of Quotations from the

49:08

Talmud that condemned Christ, but am I making sense here that you have? a universal

49:16

Polemic amongst most Religions it when they would write about those in other religions.

49:23

I Think that's exactly right. I think Unfortunately, the Jewish and Christian communities at various times through church history have sought to use a very angry hostile type language

49:41

Jewish comments about Luther were not friendly at the time either There is a book written by a

49:47

Lutheran theologian and apologist John Warwick Montgomery Entitled in defense of Martin Luther again,

49:54

I think Montgomery does a good job not in excusing Luther But in seeking to understand that he was indeed a man of his time

50:04

Yeah Well, let's move on to another great

50:09

Christian or classic Christian thinker from history that you refer to in this volume we have

50:18

Someone that I believe the vast majority of my listeners will love to hear you

50:23

Include in this list John Calvin. I believe that most of my listeners are reformed judging from the kinds of Responses I get via email not all

50:34

I even have non -christians listening to the show even Muslims but John Calvin is one of the most misunderstood and wrongly vilified

50:46

Figures from history that I have ever encountered I have brothers in Christ that are independent fundamentalist

50:54

Baptists who have spread slanderous lies about John Calvin that he

51:01

Was involved in the slaughter of Anabaptists personally

51:09

They I even had a friend a Pentecostal friend who told me that John Calvin had

51:20

Roman Catholic and other non -calvinists impaled on stakes on his

51:27

Property and I told him I think you're referring to Vlad the impaler who had Muslims Impaled on stakes.

51:34

That was not John Calvin by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, the only The only heretic

51:40

I am familiar with that John Calvin in any way consented To having put to death by the

51:47

Genevan government not by his own hand or by any church official But that was of Miguel Cervito also known as Michael Cervitus and even when

51:58

Cervitus was executed Calvin pled for a much less painful and more humane execution and I've even heard some reports that he didn't want

52:10

Cervitus executed at all. But I Tend to believe that he probably offered his consent to it

52:18

But but but things that have been said about him were have been grossly and slanderously exaggerated have they not

52:25

You know what? I think is interesting Chris is that Calvin is probably the most

52:34

Controversial Christian thinker in the history of the faith But I agree with you.

52:39

I think much is misunderstood about him Calvin's dates are 1509 to 1564.

52:47

So appreciate that. He's 26 years younger than Luther He is a second generation reformer

52:56

He grew up as a Catholic and at the time of the Reformation converted to Protestantism Saw the writings of Luther Moved from he was

53:08

French born Moved to Geneva and became part of the international reformed community

53:15

I think Calvin is an extraordinary scholar. By the way, he was a humanist.

53:21

I don't mean by that a secular Humanist he was a humanist in the sense that he loved and studied classical literature

53:29

Parents wanted him to be an attorney, but upon their death. He returned to his love of classical sources

53:37

Even published in the area of Roman literature Calvin was a biblical scholar and All you need to do is look at his commentaries

53:47

He he writes a commentary on every book of the New Testament, but the book of Revelation of which he said he didn't understand

53:56

Calvin did not invent predestination in the laboratory in Geneva The Fact of the matter is that Calvin's view of election and predestination is not that different from Luther's not that different from Thomas Aquinas not that different from st.

54:16

Augustine Calvin does not speculate He he believes that all

54:24

Christian theology has to be derived from Scripture And he is a deeply profound thinker

54:31

Even in the area of Christian apologetics his idea of the census divinitatis This idea that because we're made in the image of God.

54:40

We have an intuitive sense of God's awareness again Reflecting upon some of Paul's statements in Romans chapter 1

54:48

Even the idea that God accommodates to us that God kind of speaks baby talk to us

54:54

Because God is infinite and eternal where we're finite in temporal creatures

55:00

I think Calvin is clearly one of the great thinkers of Western civilization his

55:07

Contributions influenced the development of democracy the development of capitalism

55:14

And I and I think oftentimes The scenario you you alluded to is correct

55:20

I mean, I've had people pick up my book and say well, how come you didn't include Arminius or John Wesley?

55:26

I thought about including Wesley just to kind of broaden the field But Calvin is

55:32

I think one of the most important people in Western civilization

55:37

Not just theologically I think his Institutes of the Christian religion is as one scholar said one of the ten books that shook the world

55:46

And You know another feature here that I think is unique about Reformed theology

55:52

And of course that the two emerging traditions of Reformed thinking are our first in kind of the

55:58

Dutch Calvinism Then the Scottish Presbyterianism But what's interesting

56:05

Chris and I I find this interesting Reformed thinking is different than Catholicism and Lutheranism You can you can be reformed or Calvinistic and and be an

56:18

Anglican you can be reformed or Calvinistic and be a Baptist you can be reformed or Calvinistic and be congregational

56:26

That is reformed thinking Filters through several different key denominations.

56:33

Yeah, in fact, Martin Lloyd -Jones was a Calvinistic Methodist Yeah, well these are these extraordinary types of things about Reformed theology and and again the stories of Michael Servetus Servetus was a heretic the

56:49

Catholic Church was Out after him because of his his denial of the

56:55

Trinity Servetus was a very pernicious type of Heretic taunted

57:02

Calvin Even went to Geneva Calvin warned him. Don't go to Geneva. If you do you'll be you'll be arrested

57:08

It wasn't Calvin that had Servetus executed it was the council there in Geneva and it is true that Calvin thought of a less painful form of punishment

57:20

You know, I might also mention this about Calvin. Calvin had a lot of suffering in his life.

57:27

He only lived 55 years His Wife that he was married to she died.

57:34

They had a child that the child died Calvin had lots of health problems But yet Calvin in his preaching would often talk about people who were the orphans the fatherless

57:46

The immigrants people who didn't have much power I think that Pastor Calvin could be angry

57:54

I think there was a tendency on his part to kind of think if you disagreed with him

57:59

You're disagreeing with God, but remember these are all people who have feet of clay

58:04

These are all broken centers who need God's grace and forgiveness In fact, let's return to right where you left off there about Calvin when we return from our midway break

58:14

This is the longer the normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show to localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City So please use this time wisely write down questions for Ken samples and also write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can more

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Frequently and successfully patronize them and remember we rely upon our advertisers to exist because iron sharpens iron radio requires their financial funding of this program in order to survive so please remember that and patronize our

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Sponsors as often as possible. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars a year -round

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad Assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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I Accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in The churches of our

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Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths

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My name is Steve Lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier ministries

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students

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01:12:00

Before I return to Ken samples. I just have some upcoming Announcements or should

01:12:06

I say announcements for upcoming events that I hope that as many of you as possible will attend

01:12:13

My free pastors luncheon is going to be held next week. That's Thursday, May 23rd 11 a .m

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To 2 p .m. At the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall Carlisle, Pennsylvania Absolutely free of charge to all men and ministry leadership whether you're a pastor an elder and I believe those is the same office by Deacon power church leader, whatever leadership position you hold if you are a man, you may attend this absolutely free of charge and We are featuring guest speaker.

01:12:41

Dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary He's going to be speaking on the theme how the

01:12:48

Dead Sea Scrolls vindicate the reliability of the Bible Every man attending will also receive many free

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Brand -new books that I have selected which have been donated by many major publishers in the

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United States in the United Kingdom And it's all free of charge If you'd like to register, that's

01:13:08

Thursday, May 23rd 11 a .m. To 2 p .m. Here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:13:15

chrisarnson at gmail .com and put pastors luncheon in the subject line Dr.

01:13:21

Costa will also be heading to New York after the Pennsylvania luncheon

01:13:26

I will be accompanying him to New York to Attend a number of speaking engagements that I've arranged for dr

01:13:35

Costa on Long Island, New York at New Hyde Park Baptist Church Wading River Baptist Church Hope Reform Baptist Church and Missio Church all on Long Island, New York from Friday the 24th of May through Sunday the 26th of May.

01:13:53

So if you would like an itinerary a complete itinerary of where Dr. Costa will be speaking just send me an email and put dr.

01:14:01

Tony Costa or something similar to that. Dr. Costa's Itinerary in a subject line and I will get you the entire speaking itinerary for dr.

01:14:11

Costa Then after that, I am going to be packing up my bags and heading

01:14:18

Back to Pennsylvania, but this time to Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania to the East Coast ministers conference of the banner of truth

01:14:25

This year it is on the theme. I believe in the Holy Spirit And the conference is going to be held from Tuesday the 28th of May Through Thursday the 30th of May the speakers include

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Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn, Steve Nichols, Michael Morales and Chad Vegas that's

01:14:42

Tuesday May 28th through Thursday, May 30th and Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at the

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Elizabethtown College if you'd like to register go to banner of truth org banner of truth org

01:14:53

Click on events and then scroll down to East Coast ministers conference. Then after that in December Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th.

01:15:02

I am going to be heading back to New York City to the foundations conference Which is a conference that is orchestrated and hosted by sermon audio calm

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The foundations conference is going to be held in the heart of Manhattan and it is always a great time to hear great preachers

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In a more intimate setting. There's only about a little less than 200 people that fit in the venue

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So I would register as quickly as possible Speakers include dr. Stephen J Lawson whose voice you've been hearing promoting

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New Covenant Church NYC a sponsor here on iron trip and Zion radio Paul Washer one of the finest preachers in the on the planet earth alive today

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Jeff Thomas another one of the finest preachers on the planet earth Reverend Armin Tomasian who

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I believe is going to be a household name over the next decade a young man with powerful preaching abilities and gifts far beyond his youth and I am certain that in the

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Reformed Circles across the globe that he will become a well -known name very soon

01:16:07

He is that powerful and gifted Reverend Richard Caldwell jr.

01:16:13

And Andrew Quigley are two men that I have not yet heard preach But since sermon audio selected them and I know that they're a very discerning bunch

01:16:20

I'm sure that they will be profound as well to register could go to the foundations conference calm the foundations conference calm and then after that in January from Thursday January 16th through Saturday January 18th

01:16:37

I'm going to be Back in Atlanta, Georgia more specifically College Point or some

01:16:43

I'm sorry College Park, Georgia Which is a suburb of Atlanta? at the

01:16:49

Georgia International Convention Center and that is where the g3 conference will once again be held and That stands for gospel grace and glory and I am looking forward to this event

01:17:02

Once again, as I always do I'll be manning an exhibitors booth there So if you register look for me at the g3 conference

01:17:09

In the crowd of 5 ,000 people or more where I will be manning an exhibitors booth speakers include

01:17:17

Kosti Hinn the Nephew of the notorious charlatan

01:17:22

Benny Hinn and Kosti Hinn has repented of his word -of -faith

01:17:28

Background He denounces it as heresy. He has become a reformed Baptist and a cessationist

01:17:35

And he spends much of his time exposing the word -of -faith

01:17:41

Pentecostal movement as a heretical and dangerous Group including exposing his own uncle who he denounces as a heretic

01:17:50

Very fascinating brother and I and I look forward to hearing him speak publicly for the first time

01:17:56

I have interviewed him on a number of occasions But I'm looking forward to hearing him live and in person and meeting him face to face for the first time

01:18:04

David Miller another extraordinary preacher Derek Thomas everybody listening who loves the banner of truth.

01:18:10

I'm sure is familiar with Derek Thomas Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries somebody who is very closely connected to iron sharpens iron radio

01:18:17

Joel Beakey another old friend of mine since the 1990s Josh Bice the founder of the g3 conference and once again on a lineup that includes

01:18:27

Paul Washer and Stephen Lawson who I just mentioned moments ago for the foundations conference

01:18:33

They will also be speaking at the g3 conference my friend. Dr Tom Askew the executive director of founders ministries and also

01:18:41

Vodie Balcom definitely a profound speaker and writer and A man that you should definitely make it a point to hear preach if you've never heard him speak before if you want to register go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm and You will have all the information that you need

01:19:01

I strongly urge you to register for an exhibitors booth as well. Just like I'll be manning if you have a

01:19:08

Business church or parachurch ministry that you want to promote because there will be over 5 ,000 people there just as there are every year

01:19:15

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01:23:19

chrisarnsen at gmail .com And that's also the email address where you can send in a question to my guest

01:23:25

Ken samples We are discussing classic Christian thinkers, which is also the subject of his or the title of his latest book

01:23:33

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

01:23:38

USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and Ken right before our midway break

01:23:45

You were mentioning how? John Calvin like us all had feet of clay

01:23:50

He was a man that had extraordinary gifts, but he also was a sinner saved by grace battled with sins and errors in his

01:24:01

Thinking and occasionally his attitude So if you could pick up right where you left off there

01:24:07

Yeah, Calvin Calvin is an extraordinary figure and I like the way you put it

01:24:13

Chris. He is a man of great gifts Extraordinary mind and Yet also a person who struggled with his his own sanctification like all of us do

01:24:28

I think Calvin's deep contributions are in the area of Affirming that all

01:24:36

Christian doctrine has to be rooted in Scripture and thus The argument for sola scriptura that began with with Luther at least from a

01:24:46

Protestant point of view Gets strong support from John Calvin Calvin of course emphasizes the sovereignty of God and You know,

01:24:57

I I mean because I am a philosopher I meet people who Sometimes are puzzled by reformed thinking they think that you know, it rules out any kind of Responsibility on the part of human beings, but I think what you see in Calvin is is an argument that if God is in sovereign control of the world

01:25:20

Then you can face all things including suffering with the confidence that you're in the hands of of God and as I mentioned before Calvin and his ideas of work and occupation he saw not just religious occupations as being ordained by God, but everyday occupations and so the idea of Democracy freedom

01:25:49

Capitalism all of these things get a shot in the arm For Calvin and so I would say to my friends who are not fond of Calvin That he remains a person that I think in which you have to come to grips with Not just his theological ideas, but his his deep thinking about Human beings and You know the human condition and so I think clearly whether you're a

01:26:18

Calvinist or not Calvin is one of the great classical Christian Christian thinkers no doubt about it and I Was blessed by hearing from our mutual friend who is now with Christ for eternity

01:26:33

Desmond Ford who recently went home to be with the Lord who has been a guest on iron sharpens iron radio

01:26:39

On at least two occasions I was blessed to hear from him even though Desmond Did not at all by any stretch of the imagination share our belief in unconditional election and limited atonement

01:26:52

He was very opposed to those ideas He told me that he loved reading John Calvin and had a great esteem and high regard for John Calvin's writings

01:27:04

Even though he disagreed with Calvin on very important points So that's something to keep in mind and for our listeners who don't know who

01:27:11

Desmond Ford was He was a former Seventh -day Adventist Who was quite heroic?

01:27:18

by vociferously opposing The especially the doctrine of investigative judgment in the

01:27:25

Seventh -day Adventist Church He was himself a Seventh -day Adventist for many years and highly esteemed as one of their greatest thinkers in the 20th century and 21st century and he was

01:27:37

Excommunicated for his opposition to not only the investigative judgment teaching which he found heretical

01:27:44

But also the elevation of Ellen G. White's writings to being of equal importance with the scripture and he was a tireless defender of justification by faith alone, so It's interesting and quite a blessing to know he that he loved

01:28:00

John Calvin It really is and and I and I I know

01:28:06

I knew Des well spent many hours talking with him and Des was a a

01:28:12

Vigorous student of the scriptures the New Testament and I could see how he would appreciate particularly

01:28:18

Calvin's commentaries So I'm not surprised by that statement and Des was a very fair -minded person.

01:28:24

That's one of the things I respected about him Amen, okay. Well, we have another listener

01:28:29

Grady from Asheboro, North Carolina very loyal listener and generous contributor to iron sharpens iron radio

01:28:38

Hi brothers, Chris and Ken brother Ken Thanks so much for writing this book whenever I bring up to others in reformed churches that we need to read

01:28:46

The men you have written about a lot of times. I'm told we shouldn't read the ones that are

01:28:52

Catholic I disagree because no matter what we read shouldn't we do so filtering it through the

01:28:57

Holy Scriptures. Do you agree? Yeah, I really appreciate you asking that question

01:29:03

Grady and I'm really glad you're a regular listener to Chris's program

01:29:09

You know, I I think that I think when we look at the writers

01:29:15

Scholars that I've mentioned who are Catholic and there are a couple of them in my book That would come down on the side of Roman Catholicism I think we need to recognize that while there are our continual sharp and possibly intractable differences between Catholics and Protestants particularly the question of authority scripture and tradition the

01:29:38

Pope The question of the relationship between grace faith and works and salvation

01:29:45

How we view the Saints and Mary Three critical issues and there are others.

01:29:52

It's also important to recognize that conservative Catholics traditional Catholics affirm the

01:29:58

Nicene Creed there is a powerful area of common commitment

01:30:04

When it comes to a creedal Christianity, I think that There are there are many thinkers within Christendom Who have much to teach us and reflect upon us

01:30:19

I can't imagine going through life not reading st. Augustine not reading Athanasius not reading

01:30:25

Thomas Aquinas Do I differ with them at times I do but I've learned a great deal from them and You know if if we believe we have things to teach

01:30:38

Catholics. There may be things that Catholics can teach us And I think we need to be fair -minded.

01:30:45

I think all of the scholars. I write about my book They are ultimately a God's gift

01:30:51

To Christendom itself and so while Thomas Aquinas was a Roman Catholic He nonetheless his philosophical ideas have influenced

01:31:01

Protestantism in in in many ways We have oh by the way

01:31:07

Grady if you have not already won this book you have won classic Christian thinkers by our guest

01:31:14

Kenneth Richard samples So send us your full mailing address if you have not already won this book when we discussed this work last month in part one of our discussion

01:31:26

Let's see here. We have RJ in White Plains, New York, and he says regarding John Calvin Would you not say that he was a much more systematic theologian than Martin Luther and much more thoroughly?

01:31:39

consistent With what with what we know as reformed theology and giving a hundred percent of the praise honor and glory to God for our salvation and being further distant from the

01:31:55

Roman Catholic concept of man's cooperation and salvation Which Calvin's father followers seem to uphold?

01:32:05

For a longer period of time than Luther's who were negatively influenced by Philip Melanchthon Yeah, I appreciate

01:32:14

RJ raising that important question You know part of my education came from Concordia University here in Southern, California Missouri Senate Liberal Arts College, and I studied there as an undergrad and I I noticed that Well, I think almost universally reformed

01:32:36

Christians have a great admiration for Luther They see him as a heroic figure.

01:32:42

They see him as as a pathfinder with great charisma brilliant thinker

01:32:50

So many reformed have great admiration for Luther, but I've discovered however is that Lutherans don't always return the favor to Calvin That's very true,

01:33:02

I Suspect that you know again Calvin is a lightning rod because of the question of election and predestination

01:33:10

But again, I would challenge that thesis. I don't think Luther and Calvin's view about election were too far off and Nor were the views of Augustin and Thomas Aquinas on that issue now

01:33:25

In comparing Luther and Calvin, I don't think Calvin had nearly the charisma that Luther did

01:33:31

I'm not sure. I'm not sure Calvin could have been the Pathfinder the original

01:33:40

Revolutionary that Luther was and I don't ever want to detract from Luther's Brilliant theological ability.

01:33:48

I mean he was an incredibly prolific author And all Protestants owe

01:33:55

Respect to Luther and yet RJ. I think you're right. I think that Calvin was a greater systematic theologian.

01:34:03

I think that he took such issues as sola scriptura justification by faith alone those issues and put it into a systematic defense that was very very powerful and Unfortunately, I know many

01:34:20

Christians today Who don't see Don't connect Calvin.

01:34:25

I think enough with the Reformation they they have this clash in their mind between an

01:34:31

Arminian system and a Calvinistic system and Failed to appreciate how deeply committed

01:34:38

Calvin was to a Protestant faith and so Yes, I think

01:34:43

Calvin was the greater systematic theologian and remember he's 26 years younger and so he's that second -generation

01:34:52

Reformer And yet Luther is an extraordinary person and I think both of them should be given great honor

01:35:01

In what they've done for Christendom and what they have also done for Western civilization as a whole would you say that John Calvin was

01:35:16

Let's see if I can phrase this correctly he came to conclusions where he thought a lot more of the teachings of Scripture could be pinpointed and Documented in detail and upheld as doctrine whereas Luther would find much of what

01:35:42

Calvin pinpointed his doctrine things that should be better left to mystery and not be so certain about am

01:35:48

I am I Somewhere in the right ballpark with that Yeah, I I think that's right having gone to school at a

01:35:56

Lutheran liberal arts college and have many friends who were Lutheran and Lutheran theologians and at one time

01:36:04

I considered becoming a Lutheran pastor I think it is true that the Lutheran theology may give a greater place for the question of mystery not that Calvin wouldn't recognize that there are mystery

01:36:17

Calvin recognized that God is infinite and eternal and We never fully inexhaustibly comprehend the

01:36:25

Trinity in the incarnation The atonement these great Christian truth, but I think you're right

01:36:31

I think that I think Calvin was more of an exegete Than Luther and I think

01:36:38

Luther probably give greater place to mystery and there are people who criticize reformed theology

01:36:44

Calvinism for maybe pushing places where other

01:36:50

Christians think that you need to recognize that Mystery is a critical point of view.

01:36:57

But yeah, I think that's a that's a pretty fair point. You're making there and And Luther was more sacerdotal.

01:37:05

Was he not in regarding to the spiritual significance of the sacraments than then was

01:37:12

Calvin I Think that that's exactly right You know Luther was a thoroughgoing

01:37:19

Catholic Calvin benefits not only from Luther but the development of the

01:37:26

Reformation I think that Lutheran theology is more liturgical in many respects

01:37:34

I but yet you know Calvin I think Calvin's view of the

01:37:40

Lord's Supper is becoming very very popular and I think both of them, you know hold very robust positions in terms of defending.

01:37:50

But yeah, I think Lutheranism is more liturgical And probably has connections to an earlier

01:37:59

Catholic faith than reformed theology, but again We wouldn't have the

01:38:05

Reformation. I don't think without both of them and I might have been too strong with the use of sacerdotal as a adjective but because Luther did eventually strongly oppose

01:38:20

Transubstantiation and Also opposed the worship of the elements in the

01:38:27

Eucharist Even though he believed in a real spiritual presence of Christ presence of Christ in the

01:38:35

Eucharist and Ending the elements which would be would have been the way that That differentiated him from Calvin as far as the specific presence of Christ in the elements he still was opposed to transubstantiation and the worship of the elements and he did not view them as a

01:38:51

He did not view the the Eucharist as a propitiatory sacrifice either

01:38:57

Yeah, you're gonna see here differences between two of the people that I mentioned were whereas you have

01:39:04

Thomas Aquinas defending I Many ways I think

01:39:10

Thomas is the greatest defender of the Catholic sacramental system you have

01:39:15

Luther moving away from that recognizing the real presence of Christ in with and under the app the

01:39:24

Elements and then Calvin a real presence, but a spiritual presence and then later people

01:39:30

Merely viewing it as a remembrance a memorial and so those issues remain contested yet,

01:39:40

I think that Calvin's position is held by more and more Christians today and I I can't understand when

01:39:48

I have conversations and interviews with my Conservative Lutheran friends in the

01:39:54

Missouri Synod and other biblically faithful synods I Can't understand how they can

01:40:00

So far separate John Calvin from Luther when the bondage of the will the great debate of the

01:40:07

Reformation between Luther and Wow, his name

01:40:13

Erasmus Yeah You know because to me they cannot consistently reject

01:40:22

Calvinism and maintain the Lutheran or Martin Luther's own Understanding of the bondage of the will it really is quite a mystery to me to use the word mystery again

01:40:33

Yeah, I think again. I think you're you're raising a fair point. I think you know remember that Remember that both

01:40:42

Luther and Calvin are influenced deeply by Augustine Calvin quotes Calvin quotes

01:40:49

Luther about a hundred times he quotes Thomas Aquinas around a hundred times Calvin quotes

01:40:54

Augustine 4 ,200 times and You know I think that when you read the bondage of the will you see a very powerful view of God's sovereign grace

01:41:08

The length on is a different personality than Luther Comes at things quite differently, and I'm not to some degree.

01:41:17

I think it's unfortunate that Lutherans don't Appreciate Calvin the way

01:41:23

Reformed Christians appreciate Luther well We have to go to our final break And if you'd like to join us on the air send us a question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time

01:41:32

Chris Arnzen At gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away We'll be right back with Ken samples after these messages from our sponsors

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Spread the word about first love radio org Welcome back.

01:50:28

And now we come to the classic Christian thinker blaze Pascal if you could

01:50:35

Ken samples, why is this? Figure from history considered one of your heroes and included in this book classic

01:50:43

Christian thinkers Pascal was born in the 17th century dates are 1623 to 1662

01:50:52

So Pascal is one of the founding fathers of science he is one among many very

01:51:02

Influential Christians in the emergence of science the scientific revolution about the second half of the 1600s

01:51:11

Pascal is a great physicist even today in the area of pressure. They measure pressure in terms of how many

01:51:19

Pascal He was a mathematician Logician an inventor.

01:51:25

In fact, he invented a calculating machine His father was a treasurer for the

01:51:31

French government and in the 1600s Pascal said if look if a clock could measure the hour

01:51:39

I should be able to come up with a machine that can calculate numbers and That calculating machine is in the minds of many people who have studied technology the first step toward a computer

01:51:52

This is all in the 1600s Pascal only lived 39 years

01:51:57

He's in his early 30s kind of grows up in a nominal Catholic family in his early 30s

01:52:04

He's crossing the fine River in Paris And has a deep spiritual conversion

01:52:12

Writes about it in his classic book Ponce's Devotes his life to defending

01:52:19

Christianity well known for the the wager argument But when

01:52:24

Pascal was ill with something like stomach cancer He's a wealthy man because he was an inventor a scientist

01:52:33

Gave away his large entire library except for two books his Bible and Augustine's Confession I think

01:52:41

Pascal is a very powerful original thinker Even though he was

01:52:46

Catholic. He was very Augustinian strong view of the grace of God I think in many ways

01:52:53

Pascal is almost an ideal thinker to read today To people who are very relativistic people who are very skeptical

01:53:03

I think Pascal is an extraordinary Thinker and apologist and I I read his book

01:53:11

Ponce's every year. I think it is that good And I think that he is

01:53:18

He's kind of the first modern man. He is a Renaissance man

01:53:23

And in fact to tell you how extraordinary is there's only one Christian in the history of the world

01:53:29

Who's had a computer language named after him? Pascal Huh and Pascal's wager that you just mentioned.

01:53:38

I don't have the the exact wording in front of me, but it had something to do with Why risk eternal damnation by rejecting

01:53:46

God isn't that some kind of a? Connection to what his wager was it? Maybe you have the exact wording

01:53:53

That's right Pascal's wager was really kind of a cost -benefit analysis He never intended the wager to be an independent argument for God You know he knew a lot of skeptical people at the time the two large groups were either you're a

01:54:10

Christian usually Catholic in France or you were an atheist He had friends who were skeptics who didn't commit one way or the other

01:54:18

We're not embracing atheism, but neither were they Christian? He uses this argument

01:54:25

Essentially to argue that only by believing in God will you gain ultimately and only by disbelieving in God?

01:54:33

will you lose ultimately and He argued for the resurrection of Christ fulfilled prophecy thoroughgoing

01:54:42

Christian thinker and and Apologist and I think he probably of all the people in my book gets less attention and less appreciation

01:54:52

And of course C .s. Lewis, I know that you are a great lover of C .s. Lewis He is another figure from history and much more recent than any of the others 20th century hero of the faith loved by Arminians and Protestants and Catholics and even those outside of Christendom for his writing in fact, there is

01:55:15

As you probably know a debate amongst reformed Christians on this figure as well how much we should

01:55:21

Read him and uphold him as a hero because of some of his Peculiar views that may have been too sympathetic towards Roman Catholicism, even though he was an

01:55:32

Episcopalian or an Anglican I should say but if you could Give us in at least two minutes why we should all benefit from C .s.

01:55:39

Lewis Yeah, C .s. Lewis was born in 1898 dies 1963 in fact, he dies the same day

01:55:47

President Kennedy was assassinated In fact, he died the same hour Lewis was very popular in America Christians in America didn't know about Lewis's death for a couple weeks because of the saturation of news information about JFK's death out of Huxley another

01:56:07

Popular author kind of Eastern mystical died the same day Peter Krafft the

01:56:13

Catholic philosopher has a book between heaven and hell Where he creates this meeting between Lewis Kennedy and Huxley Lewis the

01:56:22

Christian Catholic kind of JFK kind of the humanist and Huxley kind of the mystical thinker.

01:56:29

I think that Lewis is an extraordinary figure. Remember he's born in 1898 he's saturated with teachings like Marx the

01:56:39

Communist Manifesto People like Friedrich Nietzsche, God is

01:56:46

Dead, Darwin's Origin of the Species and so even though Lewis is baptized into the

01:56:56

Church of Ireland In fact, he is Irish not English, but he loses his faith.

01:57:02

His mom dies young He's kind of alienated from his father. He's put in boarding school becomes an atheist

01:57:08

And yet it's his dialogues with people at Oxford like J. R.

01:57:14

R. Tolkien various others who are in the Inklings group that persuade Lewis to embrace first theism then

01:57:22

Christianity I think Lewis is the most important Christian apologist of the 20th century

01:57:28

I think his argument in favor of the argument for Jesus I think his arguments critiquing naturalism are very powerful

01:57:39

I would include that there are a good number of Reformed people including myself that appreciate

01:57:44

Lewis He is definitely Anglican There are things he believed that would have an overlap with Catholic ideas

01:57:54

But again appreciating Lewis doesn't mean you have to believe everything He believed we we can criticize his view of not holding to the biblical inerrancy

01:58:05

We can criticize him for probably holding a view of creation that was something like theistic evolution

01:58:11

But I think Lewis was One of the great thinkers we could talk about the chronicles of Narnia there really were three

01:58:20

C .S. Lewis's there was the Author of the children's novels there was

01:58:26

Lewis the apologist and lay theologian And then there is Lewis the literary critic I think his influences is

01:58:36

Extraordinary, and I think he is universally respected Again some

01:58:42

Reformed appreciate him as but as you mentioned so do So do people in other branches of Christendom as well in fact

01:58:51

Pope John Paul the second told Walter Hooper Walter Hooper was Lewis's secretary

01:58:56

John Paul said that he was a C .S. Lewis fan and that he thought

01:59:04

The Lewis's writings on the four loves was on the level of the writing of st.

01:59:10

Augustine That's an extraordinary thing for a Pope to say yeah Well we are out of time, and I know that your website at reasons to believe is reasons org reasons org

01:59:22

I want to thank you so much Ken for being on our show again And we look forward to your return as our guest and I look forward to at some point meeting you again face to face and Sharing fellowship with you

01:59:33

I want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to write in and I want you all to always remember