Bart Barber on Social Justice, MeToo, & Women Pastors

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Hey everyone, we are live now on the conversation that matters podcast. I hope everyone's doing.

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All right. Have you had a wonderful Lord's Day? Mine was a bit icy I'm gonna admit it was I had some close calls last night and I was praying

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But it did wonders for my prayer life, but not for my tires on my car. We had a little snowstorm, but uh

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But we're safe We're doing well And we have a lot of important things to talk about because while we were having a snowstorm in New York Bart Barber the president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention was at a church doing a Q &A and I watched his Q &A this morning.

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I actually went through I kind of boiled down What I thought were the relevant points for you and the audience who are

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Southern Baptists And then I asked William Wolfe to come on and talk about it and William is an author at the

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Freedom Center at Liberty University He has an MDiv from Southern Seminary, and he's a personal friend an all -around good and funny guy

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Appreciate you coming on the podcast William. Thanks for having me John glad to hear you made it through the ice safely

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Yeah, it was kind of it was probably the closest call This winter and it was yeah, it wasn't fun, but that's the perils of living in the

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Northeast So you don't have to experience that I guess too much in Louisville Yeah back in North Carolina.

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The only problem is everyone loses their mind. Oh, yeah anything on the road here So I remember that actually when

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I lived in Raleigh. I remember we had like a dusting and their cars and trees I was just like how is this possible?

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So anyway, so Southerners man got alone. Yeah So well, we're gonna talk about Bart Barber and I wanted you on because I know you've been tracking really close with SBC related things and you've announced an announcement at the end of this podcast

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That you want to share with everyone that I think it's gonna be really important for SBC conservative

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So I want them to hear that and I want them to hear what you have to say about Bart Barber So without further ado, let's set the stage and then we'll play the

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Bart Barber clip What do you want people to know about? Where he was because I don't even know exactly what church he was that he was at a church in an evening service

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Talking about SBC related stuff, right? Yeah, that's right. You know Bart Barber is the president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention He's in his second term. So this is the end of his run as a

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Southern Baptist Convention president He'll moderate over our annual meeting in June in Indianapolis he's a pastor in Texas and So he's been a pretty small town country pastor for for many years and now he's the president of SBC he was at First Baptist Church Jacksonville where Heath Lambert is the senior pastor and he was there and he preached and then he

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Took a Q &A and Heath Lambert gave him some very serious questions. So Immediately, I want to say thanks to Heath Lambert for one making it live and two asking

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Bart serious and hard -hitting questions about the current State of our convention. I was not used to seeing such direct questions

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So I'm a very appreciative of that too because these are the actual questions people want answered so the

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I've organized this into three parts and it probably gets more kind of political as we go

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But the first part is just how Bart Barber conceives of the power of the SBC presidency what he can do what he can't do

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About some of the the liberal drift issues in the convention and then the second part

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I'm gonna have you address the me too stuff for the abuse related allegations because he talks about that and then last but not least

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We'll talk about the law amendments and women pastors. So If you have questions if you're in the chat, we don't have it open for video questions

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But if you want to write a question for William or myself You can put that in the chat on YouTube or Facebook.

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So without further ado here is Bart Barber and we'll start watching this a Lot of folks that I knew said what we have left is not a good enough selection of choices for Southern Baptist to make a choice and A lot of friends who for several years had been saying

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Please, you know consider being nominated for president of the SBC came to me and really pressed on me about that at that time

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It's a volunteer position that really has Only a few things that are specified in the

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Constitution Baptists have always been very suspicious of concentrated power

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Yeah, there you go, yeah and the more tonight goes the more suspicious you will be of it

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I'm sure but but really it's true. It's a good thing for us as Baptists to be that way And so we've put together an organization that deliberately has a weak presidency but the major job that I have is

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To moderate the business meeting that we have once a year the SBC annual meeting which is the world's largest open democracy you have 15 ,000 people there and any of them can walk up to a microphone and Move to do anything they want to move to do and say anything they want to say and it's amazing

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Nobody else is crazy enough to do this. I have to appoint some committees The the committee that counts the votes as we have a committee that drafts resolutions

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For the convention to consider and I appoint that I appoint a committee called the committee on committees that committee has

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One 45 -minute meeting and that's all they do and they appoint a committee

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That they can't fully appoint but they have to give that to the messenger body to vote to approve the committee that they've appointed called the committee on nominations and then that committee works all year long and They pick people to serve on the

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Board of Trustees for the International Mission Board of the North American Mission Board or Southern Baptist Theological Seminary or whatever they have to bring those back the next year for the convention to vote on and so I Initiate a step that's before a step that's before a step

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That puts people into the positions of governing our entities at Southern Baptist Convention.

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I am okay I just want to Stop there William and we talk about what we just heard because I could have probably brought a lot more clips into it because Bart Barber constantly throughout this whole interview keeps saying

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I don't really have much power as the president of the convention You almost get the impression that like he can't really do much

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But then he does talk about all these committees he appoints which actually run the convention So, you know, is it true that Joe Schmo from Mobile, Alabama can show up with 15 ,000 people and just walk to the mic

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You know be more powerful than Bart Barber like like how does the convention actually work and is

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Bart responsible for some of the liberal drift? Yeah, so he's not entirely wrong But he's not entirely right and it reminds me of sort of one of the classic comments about legislating and getting things done some senator or congressman one time said

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I'll let you write the bills as long as I control the process and That's what the

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Southern Baptist President does at the annual meeting as he controls the process and so I'd say

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Bart You know misspoke there when he said the most important thing he does is run the annual meeting though That is important and it really controls the outcomes that happens on the floor

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But he got into what really is the more important function of the Southern Baptist president which is two years worth of committee appointments and that matters greatly and when the original conservative resurgence was

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Employed in the Southern Baptist Convention, they realized that it would probably take about 10 years you know about five two -year terms of solid conservative presidents and appointments to be in turning the

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Institutions around because the trustees that he appoints to the committee on committees and the committee on nominations They're the ones who exercise control on behalf of the messengers over our institutions over the

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IMB over NAM over our six seminaries Over the ERLC, etc and so it's a very powerful position and it's interesting to consider that JD Greer got three years as The SBC president to make these can to make these committee appointments and I would argue

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Really reshaped the convention and push it in a more liberal direction with his committee appointments

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And then so Bart's mate been making significant appointments and in this tenure as his president as the president

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He oversaw the creation of the cooperation group, which we'll get into later Which is a very important committee right now in Southern Baptist life

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So I think Bart is doing a little bit of an aw shucks routine that gets at some reality but masks the power that he holds particularly when it comes to you know

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Who gets on committees and then what we consider on the floor and what we don't consider on the floor at the annual meeting

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Yeah, I was just thinking to the annual meeting you can show up there But there is a stage that tends to direct things and I remember when

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Rick Warren was there A lot of people it caught their eye that he was able to just make his way to a microphone and get called on So it's not like everyone has equal access to these things either, right?

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No, not at all And look you can get to a mic if the mics are cut off aren't cut off like they were in our

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New Orleans meeting last year for a while but that doesn't mean that what you get to say will be entertained or you might get cut off by the

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Moderator by the president when you're trying to speak to things. I know that Jennifer Buck and Tom Buck and those on their behalf tried to bring some issues up pertaining to how they had been mistreated and lied about by SBC Operatives and that wasn't entertained.

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There was a motion at the last annual meeting to release the video footage Surrounding the incident with Mike Stone when he was falsely accused of harassing and bullying a sexual abuse survivor

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A lie that was spread by people like Griffin Gulledge and others and that really didn't get entertained and didn't get moved forward

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So there is quite a bit of power in what we call the platform in the SBC And that's the guy standing up there with a suite of people around him the parliamentarian and others

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And so again, I think part is downplaying the importance of his role. All right. Well, let's keep going here

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We have questions coming in keep bringing them in But we are gonna make our way through some more of this material before we answer them personally burdened

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By all the revelations of scandal in the leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention Can you please speak to the way sexual abuse allegations were mishandled by church and denominational leaders

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Whether you expect more revelations to come and how we can avoid these kind of scandals in the future

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Our convention voted to to have an independent investigation of the

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SBC executive committee They didn't find any instances where the convention or the executive committee did that Southern Baptist Convention executive committee when survivors came to try to get the convention and the executive committee to do something to help

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To try to do something to inform churches or encourage churches or provide resources for churches to do a better job that there were that there were times there were people working for the

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Southern Baptist Convention who did not want to hear that and Mistreated some of those folks who were coming to making those claims and You know, the convention has formally repented of the ways that we that we messed up there

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It seems to me that denominational leaders and lawyers Often disagree with victim advocates who don't always seem to have the best interest of the convention at heart

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How do you know who to trust and listen to as you move forward?

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Ultimately in the end I have very little authority in this weak presidential role

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To be King Solomon who listens to what everybody says and says here is my ruling

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This is this is what we're going to do and the question Seems to sort of presume that that I that I need to know how to sort it all out and know which way to rule but the fact of the matter is the messenger body of Southern Baptist Convention votes to decide what the policy of the convention is going to be and The best way

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I know To to move forward is whether it's lawyers or survivors or whoever listen to everybody and Try to get them to explain to you

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Why they think what they think Why they recommend what they recommend and then pray about what you've heard

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There's more me too stuff, but I figured I don't want to get too overwhelmed here William any reaction what you just heard

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Yeah, well, it's it's interesting because Bart is I think saying something that's going to upset a lot of abuse advocates

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But it is I believe it's the truth that there were there was nothing found that you know

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That showed there was a cover -up by this Southern Baptist Convention's executive committee or the

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Southern Baptist Convention You know itself which really operates outside of those two days were gathered through the executive committee

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But if that is the case if we take Bart's word for it raises the question of why in the world was the executive committee

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Essentially harangued into waiving attorney -client privilege that if there was nothing that they'd done.

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There's no cover -up Why did they allow themselves to get guilted into that very serious action?

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Which is arguably a breach of their fiduciary responsibility as you know trustees and operate, you know operators of the

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Southern Baptist Convention on our behalf It's also different than the tune that barber I say sung to Anderson Cooper on CNN which brings me back to his presidency role that man speaks on behalf of 14 million

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Southern Baptists. He has the bully pulpit. He speak. He's our major representative and you know before secular outlets and worldly outlets

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There's been much more of man We really are a bunch of bad guys and we got bad stuff going on and we understand why the world doesn't like it

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Then what we heard there at First Baptist Jacksonville, so Bart is sort of changing his tune for his audience

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I would argue but if Bart is right and this cannot be understated enough and Megan Basham overstated enough and Megan Basham was

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Engaging on this yesterday. If that's true, then everything we've been doing for the last six years has really exonerated us in many ways and It's time for us to begin sort of folding up and rejecting this narrative that the

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Southern Baptist Convention as an entity is somehow You know a den of abusers and a den of sort of people who want to hide abuse and cover it up We've been very transparent and forthright later

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And I don't know if we'll get to this clip Keith asks him if other churches are responsible for abuse that happens at other churches

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Okay, I'll save my comments for that then but yeah, I I just with the clips. We just heard though It seems like it is a shift and I did notice that tone change from when he was at the

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Anderson Cooper He seems to want everyone to make up their own mind about the best way to proceed with Putting policies in place or mechanisms to deal with abuse in SBC churches

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So the focus isn't on the executive committee and whether or not they're abusers or did anything abusive but now the the focus is on What do we do about the whole entire convention this larger issue and he doesn't have an opinion

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That's the weird thing to me. He doesn't he wants to portray it like well I'm just kind of neutral here and whatever you guys want and like that's not leadership.

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I don't understand how he can Like like at the beginning of the clip and I don't know if I played it

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He says that you know Southern Baptist didn't really have much of a choice But when he ran, right, so I guess Tom Askew wasn't a choice

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And so he ran to provide leadership, but this isn't leadership. So I'm getting riled up I'm not even in the convention.

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But uh, you know, that must bother you know, I think I well it certainly does because this is you know the future of the

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Southern Baptist Convention and when it comes to the Abuse related issues. This is an existential question

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If if we essentially as the Southern Baptist Convention our representatives Bart Barber our lawyers others

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Comments made on the floor make it sound like the Southern Baptist Convention as an incorporated entity

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Overseeing billions of dollars and an assets is responsible for their abuse that has happened at local autonomous churches

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Then we're liable to class -action lawsuits that could bankrupt us and end the Southern Baptist Convention as we know it now

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Bart Under oath in a deposition again He said that he doesn't think the Southern Baptist Convention did anything wrong in in the way that I handled abuse claims

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But that's a fundamentally different Tone and narrative than the one that we have heard on the floor of the

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Southern Baptist Convention For many years now and he says he wants to defer to the messenger body But I mean again in a me too era when we're being told that all of a sudden the

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Southern Baptist Convention is responsible for decades of abuse and Hundreds of incidences and cover -ups, you know, the the people are gonna vote for what's been put in front of them

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That's how we got the sexual abuse task force, which was the first iteration Then we got the abuse reform implementation task force

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Then we got the guidepost solutions that quite frankly went against a lot of our Baptist polity.

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Many haven't been implemented We sent these lawyers who we've paid millions of dollars back to the drawing board to sort of resketch these solutions out for us to Take into account

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Congregational Baptist polity But now we have people talking about trying to find a permanent home in a permanent line of funding for abuse reform task

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Force efforts including is possibly the ERLC, which I think would be an absolute disaster

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And so, you know There's a cadre of people who who have Bart's ear and are even in positions that been appointed by Bart and others

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Josh Wester is the one who heads the abuse reform implementation task force that have a lot of power and are angling for Budget lines and continuing efforts on this and so for Bart to just sort of step back and throw his hands up I think again speaks exactly to what you said which is a lack of leadership and when it comes to our next president what we need more than anybody else is a

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Leader who's gonna tell the truth and stand on biblical principles of justice to leave the Southern Baptist Convention out of this, right?

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Yeah. Yeah, it went from like an emergency throw water on the fire to well There wasn't really a fire but we should install a sprinkler system.

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Anyway, because we're gonna have We're we'll probably have fires down the line or something and it is a shift and and you know

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I think you're right if it will they're exonerated if there wasn't a problem then why why are we still talking about it? And so let's keep going here.

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We got more on the abuse. Oh, you got something else? Yeah, just I mean, I want to be clear Of course for anybody who's listening to us that you know, that's not to say there weren't abuse

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There wasn't abuse at local churches, right? and I don't want to discount that or discredit that that you know people in positions of authority did sinful and Criminal things and they should be prosecuted to the full extent of lawful discovery should be you know

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Undertaken and people if they've been wrong, they should be made right and those who wronged them should be held accountable

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But the key difference here John is is what happens at a local church somehow the entire

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Southern Baptist Convention's legal responsibility and the answer has to be no Well Bart's gonna weigh in on that how much money have

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Southern Baptists spent on guidepost solutions investigations legal fees taskforce expenses

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Legal settlements and legal settlements and other things Do you expect that more money is yet to be spent and that the

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SPC is now or will be facing a financial? crisis because of all of this that was great question, so We've spent millions of dollars

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I think the guidepost solutions report Was five six million dollars something like that that was spent by the executive committee of Southern Baptist Convention I can promise you that there's not been a single day since 1870 that your money that you gave the

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Southern Baptist Convention wasn't going to lawyers. We have lawyers Who are working?

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To respond to sexual abuse claims and lawsuits and that's been true as long as you've been alive

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You just let that sink in as long as you've been alive

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You have spent some money on lawyers To handle liability claims and to do other things that the

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Southern Baptist Convention has to do It's been more lately there've been more lawsuits lately

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There's gonna be more money spent on that here's the important thing I'm committed

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Of course, I don't have that much to do with it, but I can tell you everybody I know is committed to spending only the amount of money on legal expenses

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That are required to make it possible for us to spend all the money that we spend on missions When abuse happens in one church of the

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Southern Baptist Convention Do you think all the churches in the convention share their liability?

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No Are you familiar with the statement on social justice and the gospel so let

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I forgot about this is so we're doing four issues I guess social justice is kind of like wedged in there, but let's talk about it.

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Yeah. Yeah. Well, well the social justice Let's get let's finish the me too thing first. Sure. He talks about this

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Well, he tries to say that there is no relationship it when a local church has an abuse situation, right

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But then he's also talking about how well, we're always spending money on lawyers So what's the difference and I'm like, I'm not

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I'm seeing the disconnect, but I don't understand how he doesn't see it Yeah, when I heard that answer,

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I thought it was pretty classic dissembling a little bit of a filibuster He's talking about lawyers in some of the part that you clipped out there helping missionaries get access to country

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Sure, right let that happens. But the reality is we have spent an exponentially increasing amount of Southern Baptist Tide dollars on this this whole issue that he essentially is saying isn't really an issue and those those monies have been going to To consultants and lawyers guideposts that do not share our vision and our values

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This was a big issue with guideposts full -on pro LGBT posting in the month of June that frustrated many

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Southern Baptists And so, you know It's it's been many many millions and the Southern Baptist Executive Committee is possibly facing

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Bankruptcy over this issue and and that's an issue that the next president is gonna have to deal with and that Bart it's not clear to me under his tenure has taken particularly seriously and you know, the the reality is that if if One church is not responsible for the abuse that happens at another church if you you know

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Work that logic out then the Southern Baptist Convention as an entity isn't responsible either which again raises the question why have we been doing this for the last six years and my answer to that John is because We were led by men who weren't biblically courageous leaders

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But were incredibly influenced by the Houston Chronicles report Which I argue was sort of an op that was run on the

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Southern Baptist Convention that was further exacerbated by Russell Moore's exit letters in which he claimed to know about years of abuse that he never himself spoke up against and Essentially if you parse it all out bar barber is essentially called

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Russell Moore a liar not in so many words But if that's the case, we've been we need to stop dancing to the tune of Russell Moore's, you know

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Exit, you know song sheet and get back to biblical standards of justice and actual legal liability where it belongs

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You know, we can't keep making promises that we can't fulfill and biblical justice means holding those responsible for wrongdoings

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You know accountable for the actions and not other people Excellent. Excellent. Couldn't have said it better totally agree let's talk about social justice here since that's another topic that kind of floated in in the middle of The segment do you agree with this statement?

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Do you think the SBC should have a statement similar to it as Baptists? We've tended not to pick individuals and say you sign on to things for us

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Instead our churches make decisions about what we believe

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You don't think that it's something that the SBC needs to focus on this year or something like that in terms of this no okay,

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I was on the resolutions committee for two years and I chaired it one of those years and If you want to know about what the things are they're important to me for us to make statement

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I just look at those resolutions made reports. Okay, pretty good idea If you think Christians should support

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Donald Trump for president, I think the 2020 election was legitimate I can't stand it

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When people don't have any sympathy at all for the plight and the difficult decisions that the

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Christians face Whenever they have to go make choices in electoral politics in the United States so so I want you to know that That I can't vote for somebody who supports abortion who supports dismembering children in these gender change surgeries

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I Cannot cast a ballot for anybody who's a part of any of those things

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But you know, I'm also I also recognize that on them on the questions that are most important to me about my faith and about Affirming life and and whatever else up I'm so thankful for what's been accomplished with the

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Dobbs decision and Donald Trump gets a lot of credit for the Appointed justices on the

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Supreme Court that have helped us to get to that place but I'm really concerned about things that he said recently about the pro -life movement and And just know this

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One pastor from Texas feels a lot of sympathy for the position that you're in and that I mean

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I'm trying to figure out how we're gonna vote. I Have to say the last phrase there. He's just one pastor from Texas William.

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He's not the president of the convention, right? There it is it to the whole interview

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I think this for those who watch this watch that Bart seems to be trying to do this put on my SPC president hat

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But actually I don't have any power Take it off then put on my personal hat and let me sympathize with you and it just that doesn't work and that's not that's

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Not leadership, but a lot to jump into there. You tell me where you want to go Well, he's I think we can go in sequential order

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He basically says that the SPC does not need a statement on social justice in the resolutions and he tries to I left out some things but he tries to make an argument or at least an assertion that He will only be part of the crafting of statements that churches can adopt not individuals and so he's not gonna sign anything and and that's his justification for not being familiar with or signing the statement on social justice, but then to go the extra step of We have an election year where he's you know, it's just he can't make a decision about Donald Trump really

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It's just so hard, but he doesn't want to give anyone guidance on social justice That that's another disconnect that I saw that I was like, well that would help maybe your people understand what the issues are involved in this election and He doesn't think it's an issue which just I'm scratching my head over that one.

26:55

Yeah I wanted to let's talk about social justice in the Southern Baptist Convention, right? I think that right now we live in a moment where people are trying to memory hole just how woke the

27:05

Southern Baptist Convention and many of its leaders got from say like 2014 to 2021 -2022 we had in 2017

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Jarvis Williams and interview with Matt Smethurst at the

27:20

Gospel Coalition Recommending that people read critical race theory books We had Matt Hall, you know provost of the

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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Saying that he's going to show us all how every underneath everything we know and love is white supremacy you know, we had

27:35

Curtis Williams leading the leading the resolutions committee when we voted on Resolution number 9.

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Curtis Woods. Yeah, Curtis Woods Curtis Woods. That's right Curtis Woods And so, you know and and here's the thing We've never actually really come back and dealt with these issues as Southern Baptist We haven't fully revoked and repealed resolution number 9 and then it's very interesting for Barr to mention

27:55

You know take a look at what matters to to me in the resolutions Well, we elected Ed Litton and Litton gets caught as a plagiarist

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He's plagiarizing J .D. Greer sermons, which included very woke social justicy comments particularly downplaying the sin of homosexuality and then there were

28:11

Resolutions that were offered under the years that this previous year when Bart was chairing the the floor about you know

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Rebuking plagiarism and holding people accountable, you know not by name but just in general and those weren't allowed to come forward and so I think that that for Bart to say that You know, he doesn't think the

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Southern Baptist Convention needs to speak to social justice or wokeness in general It just isn't true

28:34

We still have we have DEI quotas essentially being run at major flagship churches We have kingdom diversity scholarships at Southeastern which you could argue are, you know

28:44

A form of social justice laundered in to the Southern Baptist world We have pretty radical climate change ideology being foisted on seminary students

28:54

We have people again at Southeastern Rachel Gilson who is downplaying and sort of smuggling in You know,

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I would argue sort of soft at best laying language dealing with issues of homosexuality and same -sex attraction

29:08

And so a social justice is live and well in the Southern Baptist Convention whether it's on feminism

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Whether it's on DEI or CRT and we've not really adequately cleaned house on this

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So I just think he's just wrong on that point, you know, I remember Walter Strickland a few years ago I mean, it's more than a few maybe was 2017 2018

29:25

He went to DC to support the dreamers. And of course, he's a prominent professor at So Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and I didn't realize this was is more than just him in the convention one of the guys running for president

29:38

Clint Presley hired an illegal migrant and also supported dreamers essentially becoming citizens

29:46

Publicly and you know, this is something that Southern Baptists themselves have to navigate this coming

29:51

June in their own convention Not just the presidential convention for the country but they they have to make an assessment about where they're going to be on some of these social justice issues because there's people running

30:01

Who actually hold to some of these? Positions and Bart doesn't want to give him direction and or doesn't think they need it

30:08

Which is about as out of touch as I think I've ever seen So, I don't know if it's willful.

30:14

I don't know. I don't I can't get in his head, but it's just it's bad Yeah, it is. I mean the year I'll see as it stands today

30:20

I would argue continues to push a pretty general social justice agenda I mean MLK 50 conference that was part and parcel with The ERL see that was funded in part by our

30:32

Southern Baptist Tithe dollars and if that was not a pro social justice conference, then I don't know what was and I would argue again that the

30:40

Liberal progressive rhetoric on immigration which we see, you know peaking right now particularly with the invasion that's happening in our southern border

30:47

You know that is part of the social justice package Critical immigration theory if you wanted to and the

30:53

ERL see continues to advocate for these things which are at odds with I'd say the position the biblical position that most

30:59

Southern Baptists hold and so there is a There's a great divide between the people in the pews in the

31:04

Southern Baptist and many of the men who lead the institutions who are On the platform and I guarantee you that the people in the pews think social justice is still a live issue.

31:13

Yeah. Yeah All right, let's keep going it is my understanding that the law amendment would require churches to limit the pastoral office to men in order to be part of the

31:25

SPC and that this amendment will be voted on this year Okay, correct

31:31

Yeah, so you're asking me if I think that statement was correct. Yeah, is that that's correct.

31:37

So I'm gonna quibble with it There is an amendment the law amendment

31:42

Actually the law Sanchez amendment that we're going to be voting on at the SPC this year But the

31:47

SPC already requires that churches limit the office of pastor to men without the law amendment we removed from friendly

31:57

Cooperation Saddleback, maybe you've heard of them Saddleback Church in California Rick Warren Fern Creek Baptist Church Linda Popham in in Louisville, Kentucky So the fact of the matter is we already have a statement of faith that is faith message and we already have a process in place

32:15

That is completely effective for doing that. So no, the law amendment does not change that the law amendment is is is

32:24

Something that does make some changes, but it but it wouldn't change that Okay, so then the question the ultimate question is do you support this amendment?

32:33

Why or why not? The most important thing for me to say is that my job is to neutrally moderate a meeting

32:39

Where we're going to come together and make this decision, but the the tricky part is what do you do when the church down the street?

32:48

has someone who's a children's minister and your church has a children's minister and That person at that church down the street

33:00

Does not one thing that your person doesn't do Never preaches

33:07

Isn't involved in the spiritual oversight of the congregation somebody who runs the children's ministry and The church down the street decides to use the title children's pastor

33:23

To refer to that person and your church calls that person a children's minister I'm not prepared to Boot them out of the

33:31

Southern Baptist Convention when all they would have to do to be like our church is just change a title and not change anything about the job description or role or responsibility of that person this

33:45

Next question is a long one, but it's a it's a good follow -up. I think to that So I'm gonna try to filter through some of the language here.

33:52

I Have read arguments from conservatives who are opposed to the law amendment

33:58

That say we need to give space for churches who are confused space for them to get in the right spot on this issue but the

34:08

SBC requires cooperating churches not to embrace homosexuality racism and sexual abuse

34:15

Why can we not say the same thing about female pastors? Should churches in the

34:22

SBC have space to get in the right spot on homosexuality Racism and sexual abuse and if not, then why wouldn't we say the same thing about female pastors?

34:33

We already have said the same thing about female pastors And we've consistently acted in that way with regard to female pastors

34:42

The question is what are you going to do about a female preschool minister? Do you think that a church who believes that female pastors are?

34:51

Consistent with biblical teaching should be allowed to affiliate with the Southern Baptist Convention No, we voted on that twice this year at the

34:58

SBC annual meeting and I agree with those decisions So the first question in the triad is can you explain the concerns and issues?

35:07

behind the creation of the Cooperation group I had said before the meeting publicly that I thought something like this would be helpful

35:14

Deliberate vagueness works great when the messenger bodies making decisions, but it's a nightmare

35:21

When you hand it to a committee, I? Don't think that is a good structure that honors the wishes of the churches of the

35:31

Southern Baptist Convention and I don't want us to become one smidgen

35:39

More liberal than what we do But with a messenger body voting 90 % to 10 % on these things that we voted on about women pastors

35:50

Trusting the messenger bodies does not mean making the Southern Baptist Convention more liberal The Liberals left and stopped coming to our annual meeting a long time ago.

36:01

I Would like you to help me understand Why you appointed people to the cooperation group who support female pastors?

36:11

I know that you were required to I know that you were required to place people on the committee who were broadly representative of in convention life

36:21

But it seems wrong to me to have people who do not support our denominations beliefs

36:26

To be having a crucial role in determining what role those beliefs should should play in our denominational life

36:33

Please help me. So the person everybody's talked about it's a guy named Jason Paredes Who's a pastor in the

36:39

DFW area whose church has female? Children's ministers and preschool ministers and people in roles like that All right, so that's the full clip that there's a lot in what we just talked about.

36:55

So I don't know if you were taking notes What do you where you want to start to unpack? Everything we just heard because I think some people might need to get this explained to them.

37:03

What exactly is going on with this reconciliation? committee Yeah, well, let's go back to the law amendment and start there.

37:11

So That you actually there's a another portion where after Bart says my job is to be a neutral arbiter

37:19

He he says I'm not a fan of the law amendment And so yeah, he works as he can't help himself

37:25

But saying to say that but we all we all know that already, you know What I want to start with and don't cut me off here is a quote from Jonathan Lehman Because I love to get these quotes and use them and I hope a certain crowd hears this

37:38

So, you know, this is what Lehman said back in like 2019 on egalitarianism and and complementarianism

37:44

He says I think the egalitarian and androgynous push of the last several decades is a front -burner generationally urgent issue for the church and Anyone who denies this is naive our culture's assault on gender differences and authority is

38:02

Generationally urgent because it's unique to this Western moment this time and place This is our battle and if you cannot see that I believe you are more affected by our time and place than you realize so this is our battle on this issue and Bart is not accurately painting a picture at all

38:19

So he says the law amendment is not necessary because in the Baptist faith and message we articulate a clear standard for who can be a pastor and say it can only be a biblical qualified man and Yet we know that there are if not just shy of thousands

38:34

There are almost 2 ,000 if not more women pastors across the Southern Baptist Convention Read Kevin McClure's piece an

38:40

American reformer how many women pastors are in the SBC Bart brought up two examples of very high profile cases of Egalitarian churches

38:49

Rick Warren and Fern Creek and he says that indicates that the system is working I actually think that proves the system is not working

38:57

Why does it take so many years and that we only deal with two very high profile cases?

39:02

When we know that there are thousands of churches potentially with women pastors across the

39:07

SBC and so the system isn't working and the way that we currently deal with this is way too long and involved and so what

39:15

Mike law Realized he needed to do was to rearticulate our our commitment to complementarianism in our

39:22

Constitution Just like we rearticulated our commitment against racism and against sex abuse

39:27

That was already in our Baptist faith and message in our Constitution And I know this were a fact that when people were pushing those amendments

39:34

Bart Barber did not say Well, we already dealt with this in the Baptist faith and message. So we don't need to rearticulate it again

39:41

It's the duty of every generation to defend the faith at the point that it's being most Attacked and I would argue the theological issue.

39:48

That is most under fire right now in the Southern Baptist Convention is Egalitarianism so there should be nothing wrong nobody should be opposed to rearticulating this in our

39:57

Constitution the way that it's in our Baptist faith and message and yet Bart Barber and many others are and here's why

40:03

John because they Don't want to draw any lines that would cause the Southern Baptist Convention to lose left -leaning churches

40:11

They're very happy to draw lines that potentially would cause the Southern Baptist Convention to lose more conservative churches

40:17

But they want to tent so big the whole world's inside of it and they don't want to get in the light of the Abuse issues.

40:22

They don't want to look like they're being mean to women or anything like that And so they're just giving up the fight on this critical theological

40:29

Generationally urgent battle and so he's just he's just wrong on that. The process is not working I know of other churches out there have been referred to the credentials committee

40:37

First Baptist Church, Alexandria That has women pastors and they have not been they've not received a ruling that they're not in friendly cooperation

40:44

And so then this is very interesting. I'll move on to this and then pause for a second Heath asks him point -blank

40:50

Do you believe that a church that has a scriptural conviction that women can be pastors should be affiliated with the

40:55

Southern Baptist Convention? To which Bart says no, but then and he was wrong about this

41:00

He appoints a guy who leads a church and with women pastors and not just women children pastors

41:05

He's wrong about that fact Jason Paredes has seven pastors who are female on staff in roles like foster and adoption care college pastors

41:14

It's not just children pastors and Jason is on record on video saying we voted against the saddlebacks

41:21

Ouster and we believe women are qualified to be pastors. Yeah, well, you know, which one is it?

41:26

Let's play that video It's gonna be an incredible message as God speaks to you as we go through Exodus But I want to tell you something that happened this past week

41:34

Pastor Gary and his wife Sandy and I were in New Orleans for the Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting with a team of people from the church and there were just a couple things that happened that That concerned me and I wanted to talk to you about so that you're aware of it

41:49

You're likely hearing some of this those of you who are more tuned to the news and the number one thing you're gonna hear about that concerns me it is the

41:59

Disfellowshipping the removal of Saddleback Church in California from the Southern Baptist Convention And it because they have female pastors, you know,

42:07

I want to just say publicly that I am in disagreement with that decision I voted against that decision

42:14

We we agree that this is not in the heart and tenor of the Southern Baptist Convention You may not know much about the

42:21

Southern Baptist Convention, but it's an incredible group of churches over 47 ,000 churches that come together with one common mission

42:30

To take the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to every place in this world right here in this city this country and to the ends of the earth planting churches sending missionaries doing gospel work and the vast majority of The convention is thousands and thousands

42:44

Literally millions of believers who love Jesus and want the vision of the gospel of Jesus Christ extended the ends of the earth to happen

42:51

But there's also confusion and I think that part of the beauty of the convention has been something called autonomy

42:58

That the churches don't exist for the convention the convention exists for the churches and the autonomy being

43:05

Independent of the way that we operate means that there can be a lot of diversity of opinion on Minor issues and we collaborate together and agree upon the major issues the chief issue being our agreement to come under the

43:17

Word of God the Bible as truth and The problem I have is right now. This move is to remove churches

43:25

Okay, so there's actually more to the clip I wish I had it cute I thought I had a cue but there's a

43:30

There's a clip here where he also I think they all even clap He says we support female pastors and like his church claps for him

43:39

And this is the gentleman you're saying Bart is they just have some preschool, you know teachers they call pastors that that's acceptable apparently

43:49

Yeah, and that's that's just not true and so Jason this is one of the Jason was repeating You know a talking point that the liberals try to use when it comes to this issues about local church autonomy

43:59

Which is something that has been addressed by many leading Baptist figures theologians Institutional leaders for centuries in our convention.

44:07

Let me let me just read, you know, let me read one quote This is from JB Gambrill SBC president 1917 to 1920 from Baptist why and why not?

44:16

He says whatever privileges any church may enjoy in cooperation Spring from the

44:21

Constitution of the Convention and not out of the Constitution of the church Privileges of membership may be and constantly are enlarged or contracted according to the judgment of those forming these general bodies and so people and Misunderstand this about the

44:36

Southern Baptist Convention and the liberals misspeak on this issue We are not telling any church how they can and cannot run it

44:43

We do believe in local church autonomy and congregationalism if you want to have women pastors I think you're going against scripture and going against God's Word and design for the church

44:51

But you can do so and the Southern Baptist Convention can't stop you But we can say that if you said you're a

44:57

Southern Baptist and you go against our confession We're not gonna let you be a part of the Southern Baptist Convention anymore.

45:02

That's not under that's not destroying local church autonomy that's appropriately policing the boundaries of our cooperation as rooted in our confession and Again, this gets back to Bart's double -speak at best, you know or ignorance where he says that Jason is just has you know

45:19

Women serving as children's ministry pastors and that's just not true So does Bart not know that the rest of us know it and when it comes to the composition of the cooperation group?

45:28

Which he says is broadly representative of the Southern Baptist Convention That's also just not true The Southern Baptist Convention messenger body in New Orleans voted about 80 % to 20 % to affirm the

45:39

Mike law amendment So if you're gonna have a broadly representative cooperation group, it should be about 80 -20 committed complementarians who support the

45:46

Mike law amendment But if you look at the names who are on the cooperation group and they're listed it's public you look at their teachings you

45:51

Look at their churches. You can see that that's just not the case. I know this for a fact John I would bet my life savings on it

45:57

If you put the Mike law amendment before the cooperation group as a motion to vote on it would never pass with that current

46:05

You know constituency that's there the Sentinel the Republic Sentinel just released a report today saying that I think it's five of the churches

46:12

Who have representatives on the cooperation group have female pastors and Jason Paredes himself has them and is out and proud about it and so it's really confusing

46:22

I think for many Southern Baptists to see us disfellowship Saddleback and then be told that that means the System is working and then to turn around and appoint somebody who operates just like Saddleback to a critical group

46:33

That's going to study the boundaries of our cooperation and then make recommendations to the whole body.

46:39

It just doesn't add up especially when you look at what they're doing on abuse reform and he's all open to any idea that would

46:47

Help I guess extinguish that In the convention even on the local church level and but then when it comes to this, it's like well we have the documents it's they're sufficient and Certainly a huge disconnect between issues that Leftists also care about or solely care about in some cases and then issues that conservatives care about Well, I'll give you the last word here

47:11

I don't know what if anything you want to say to potential Southern Baptists that they could

47:17

Apply from hearing what we just heard Bart Barber say But I know you also have an announcement.

47:23

So take it away Yeah, so I'd say the the main takeaway for Southern Baptists is you have to come to Indianapolis in June We will be meeting for our annual convention gathering and we are going to be voting to ratify the law amendment

47:36

It needs to pass twice. It's a constitutional amendment has to pass by two -thirds majority I think frankly we surprised the platform and the committed cabal who's opposed to this with the vote that we won in New Orleans But they are not going to be surprised twice

47:51

So if you're part of the Southern Baptist Convention, here are your marching orders you need to go talk to your pastor if you're a lay member and make sure that he is going to come to the

47:59

Southern Baptist Convention if you're a pastor, you need to make sure you're bringing your church there You need to one know how many messengers your church gets you can figure this out very easily on the

48:09

Southern Baptist website There's a quick calculation that tells you your max number of messengers You get a minimum of two you probably get more than that Know your max bring your max and then tell all your friends

48:19

You need to tell your fellow pastors in your local area You need to be talking to other lay members at Baptist churches and making sure that they're coming to vote for the ratification

48:28

Of the Mike law amendment, which is going to happen in a little over four months from now That's the only way we fix this if we're gonna defer to the messengers

48:35

The messengers need to show up and restate our defense of God's Word on this issue

48:40

This isn't a man -made idea This comes clearly from scripture and that's what Baptists believe in we believe in the

48:46

Bible and so that that's what I want to say To Southern Baptists be there don't buy into this narrative that this is just about children's ministry pastors and John I've been wanting to say this to you

48:55

I think better of our Baptist brethren then it seems like Barbara does

49:00

I think that any church out there who has a title that is out of step with our Confession and God's Word would be happy and willing to submit to correction and retitle that position

49:10

You know, I think that they can do that I'm not proposing we kick them out But I'm not saying that they're so stubborn that they could never consider changing that of course they could and so I'd like to give them the chance to do that and Then for in terms of announcing you talked it up, but this just it's gonna be a little bit of a teaser here

49:25

I just want people to know that myself and many other committed brothers in the Southern Baptist Convention who want to see it reinvigorated and renewed to serve as a beacon for gospel evangelism and missions and pastoral training and seminary education in the 21st century have been working together on a project that we're going to more formally announce here in the next couple weeks

49:45

I've been traveling all over the country rallying people for Indianapolis and I think you're going to be very pleased with a formal announcement when it comes out and we hope that this new this new

49:54

Organization that we're going to be launching will serve as a change agent particularly focused on raising up unapologetic and bold Baptist leaders to bring us back to essentially to our rightful place and I use that loosely as leaders of American Evangelicalism you might not like it

50:12

But what happens in the Southern Baptist Convention impacts all of American Evangelicalism other denominations are looking to us as they have these own fights the

50:19

Presbyterians the Methodists, etc Helen Andrews who herself is Eastern Orthodox, you know commissioned me to write a piece at the

50:27

American Conservative on this and she gets it She says that women pastors is the first defense to fall when a denomination is going to slip into liberalism that's the story of the mainline denominations in America and we don't want to see that happen because we view the

50:40

Southern Baptist Convention as an Institutional stewardship that God has given us here in America and over the last many hundreds of years

50:47

We view this as an effort to honor our fathers and mothers in the faith and stand strong so stay tuned more to come and It's going to be focused on helping rally folks for Indy and leading the

50:58

Southern Baptist Convention back to bold conservative biblical convictions and leadership That's excellent three questions for you

51:05

William in closing here Elijah Thompson asks I'm an ambitious young man in the SBC But not looking to be a pastor is the best way for me to get involved by being a messenger or question mark

51:15

Yeah, that's exactly right Elijah. I would I would read up on these issues Mike law has a an amendment website the

51:22

SBC amendment org I believe it's called educate yourself But primarily this is the first issue and then go talk ask for a meeting with your pastor and ask him

51:30

Hey, brother, are you tracking these issues? Are you planning on sending people to Indianapolis? I would love to be a part of if I can a lot of pastors are very busy

51:38

He says, oh, you know, look, I'm just swamped. I'm not even focusing on it. Put your hand up and say hey look

51:44

I'll let me work with the you know, the the church accountant and see how many messengers we get

51:49

Let me put together a packet talk to our church and let's fill out our compliment I'll do logistics travel lodging and bring people there

51:56

That's the best way that you can be involved right now as a committed active lay member a

52:02

History event s so there are women teaching at SBC seminaries. Is that true or false

52:08

William? Oh Yeah, that's absolutely true that there are women teaching. Yeah. Yeah, I and I know that Southeastern there were but I don't think they were they weren't teaching like You know homiletics or you know things related to that.

52:21

It was more like at least in my recollection. It was like undergrad stuff Yeah, yeah, that's right,

52:27

I mean I think it at our Baptist colleges There are certainly female professors, you know teaching all kinds of things

52:33

Karen swallow prior It was somebody who came and taught at Southeastern, you know English literature

52:39

And so you I don't think that there are female Professors teaching again homiletics or theology, but that just on such a general question.

52:48

The answer is yes. Yeah. Yeah I I would add to that too, though They may not be teachers

52:54

But there are women serving as the chairs of boards and trustees at these institutions Which I always thought was interesting because like well, they can't be pastors

53:02

But boy, do they know what makes a good pastor and you know what the John that's very interesting So in the

53:08

PCA the Presbyterian Church in America conservative Presbyterian denomination, they have a college

53:13

Covenant College I'm a graduate of it and they only let ordained

53:19

Ministers who can only be men serve on the board there and and as an alum I'm privy to the conversations that happening for years there with this push for essentially like Feministic inclusion they really want women on the board of trustees at Covenant College So they're actually to the right of us on that issue interesting interesting well we've been going almost an hour now and So if anyone wants to check out more of William Wolfe and what he has to say they can go to Twitter It's pretty easy to find

53:47

William Wolfe And where else I don't know. You don't have a website or anything. Do you not yet? Not yet?

53:53

All right coming soon. Stay stay tuned for the announcement that William is gonna make and I appreciate it