January 11, 2023 Show with Josh Buice on “The Call to Abolish Abortion”

The Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduction and Scripture Theme

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 11th day of January, 2023.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a very dear friend who is one of my favorite guests of all time to interview, and he will be no stranger to the vast majority of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience.

His name is Josh Bice, pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, and founder and president of G3 Ministries. We're going to be addressing a vital theme today, the call to abolish abortion, and we're also going to be announcing the 2023 G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

And it's my honor and privilege and thrill to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend, Pastor Josh Bice.

Hey, good to be with you, Chris.

Praise Mill Baptist Church and the G3 National Conference

Well, for the sake of our listeners, and I'm sure it's a minority of our listeners who have not yet heard about you, have never heard one of our previous interviews, perhaps, tell our listeners about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

Yeah, thanks, Chris. So Praise Mill Baptist Church is a 181-year-old church on the west side of Atlanta, Georgia. We are a Reformed Baptist church. We affiliate with the G3 Church Network. And, again, just a privilege to serve as pastor of this congregation.

I grew up here in the life of this church as a boy, met my wife here, and then in God's good providence was called back to serve as pastor here about 12 1⁄2 years ago now.

Praise God. And for those of you who want to find out more information about this historic church, go to PraiseMill .com, and that's spelled P-R-A-Y-S Mill dot com. And we hope that you find that website informative.

We hope that if you live in this area of Douglasville, Georgia, or are visiting there, or you have family, friends, and loved ones in or near there, that you either visit this church yourself or urge those that you love near there to visit this fine church.

Also, tell us about the upcoming 2023 G3 Regional Conference. I'm thrilled that, God willing, I will be returning to this conference. It has been the highlight of my years for nearly a decade. And I just have such great enthusiasm, no matter what I am going through in my life, that gets me down, depressed.

When I think of the G3 Conference, I get pumped up again. Tell us about this conference.

Yeah, Chris. So, again, it's the national conference this year. You were with us at the regional conference up in D .C., but now we're preparing for this year for the national conference.

Yeah, sorry if I misspoke. The G3 National Conference.

Yeah, it's going to be in September. We're looking forward to it. The theme is going to be on the sovereignty of God, and so we're going to be unpacking the sovereignty of God on various different levels from a theological perspective in the main sessions, and then we're going to unpack some practical aspects of the sovereignty of God in the breakout sessions.

It's going to be a thrill to be back together once again. Since we made our transition back in 2020, Chris, this is important to note, is that the national conference is now on a biennial rotation, so that means it's every other year.

And so we will be back again together this coming up September, and so we would heavily encourage those who have never been to a G3 conference to join us. You can certainly find out more information at g3min .org.

Yes, and then click Events, and then click on the Sovereignty of God, God as Sovereign. Overall, and that's September 21st through the 23rd, and I will be repeating this information in addition to airing commercials throughout this broadcast, and the commercials are going to be, you're going to hear the wonderful voice of my dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and the speakers this year include Steve Lawson, Votie Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Annual, James White, and the guest that we are privileged to interview today, Josh Bice.

So we'll get back to that later on. Now, I've been getting a lot of emails, perhaps you can explain this, of people who seem to be rejoicing over you choosing this topic today. In social media, a lot of people have been celebrating that you want to address the call to abolish abortion, and I don't know if they are mistaken or not, but there seems to be an opinion that you have somehow changed an opinion, a political approach or something on this issue.

I know that you've always been against infanticide, of course, as a genuinely regenerate Christian, but why am I hearing this from listeners who are celebrating that you're talking about this as if something has changed?

Yeah, I mean, I guess probably the main thing that has changed, Chris, has been the fact that for many years, as you've stated, I've been opposed to abortion. Obviously, my entire life I've been opposed to abortion, but I've oftentimes considered myself a struggling incrementalist, meaning that I was willing to work within the boundaries of political spheres to maybe in some cases say, well, if we can take a step in the right direction, then I'm going to be for that.

But over the last, say, couple of years, I've become convinced that the incrementalist approach to the subject of abortion is really in many ways going to be a one step forward, two steps back, three steps forward, one step back approach to ending human abortion.

And so I look at the pro-life industry and I see that there are many people who would consider themselves to be pro-life and not really falling within the boundary of abolitionist or within the circles of those who would categorize themselves as such.

And many of those people are great godly people and they certainly want to see abortion ended. But I've come to the realization in the last couple of years that I really firmly believe that there is no way forward in the pro-life movement to truly end abortion, specifically after this past year with the fall of Roe v. Wade.

So, yeah, I would call myself at this point an abolitionist and I just want to see abortion completely forever and finally ended.

Why Incrementalism Falls Short of Equal Protection

So I say I'm assuming that the difference is you've already included a big part of the difference in your explanation. But you are going to settle and you want the body of Christ to settle for nothing less than a total abolishing of abortion.

No heartbeat bills, no things that you, as you described them before, is incrementalism where we're taking one tiny step at a time. In fact, that was what many white Christians were urging the civil rights movement to do.

They were trying to get people like Dr. Martin Luther King. And believe me, folks, I'm no fan of everything Martin Luther King stood for, especially in his theology, but there were many people in the United States who were basically saying you're rushing this.

Let's do this responsibly, slowly, to really get things eventually accomplished. Am I overstretching here to see a parallel there?

Yeah, I think so, Chris. You know, again, my problem with that whole approach to taking just one step forward and maybe inching our way towards the finish line is that I think, really, if you just pull back and you're honest as a Christian, what you have to do with heartbeat bills is you have to actually look at a heartbeat bill and say, okay, well, if this is law in my state, then what this means is that as a Christian, I am actually standing for a system that creates two classes of babies.

One class of babies are going to be protected by the law as a human being, and then another class of babies are not going to be protected by the law, and they're actually going to be turned over to murderous individuals who have the intent to take the life of that human being.

And as a Christian, I can't do that. I can't stand for a law that's going to say we're going to protect some babies, but not all babies.

And tell us about how Christians who are looking upon themselves as too small and insignificant to even make a difference about this issue. What is it that you believe Christians not only can tangibly do, but should or perhaps even must?

Yeah, I think it starts with getting yourself involved. And I think one of the easiest ways to do that beyond just praying daily for opportunities to advance this cause in your own state, but would be to just call your representatives.

So the individuals that are elected by the people, find out who your representative is and then call that individual, have honest conversations about the fact that they need to be standing for the pre-born.

They need to be standing for equal protection under the law for all. And you can really have just honest conversations with a representative and just ask good questions like, in other words, do you believe in justice for all?

And do you believe that all babies are human beings from conception? And if you have a representative that will agree to those things, then you can press the conversation in the direction that to be consistent with the law and with genuine real biblical justice, then we really need to advocate for equal protection for all people, which means even the pre-born.

And so there are ways to do this. We have a page set up at our website at g3men .org. If you were to search on that website for equal protection, you will be able to see the page there, but you can also go to endabortionnow .com forward slash GA.

And that will give you just an example of some of the things that you can do, like say here in the state of Georgia. That specific website is set up for the state of Georgia that I've just referenced, but there are other states that are represented that same way on that website.

And what you will see is just clear information that will connect you with representatives, opportunities for you to email or call and have these conversations. So that's really the easiest way for the average Christian in a local church to get involved in this process.

By the way, I'm going to give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Pastor Josh Bice on this issue of abolishing abortion. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you have a child who is considering an abortion. You have a child who's already had an abortion. Perhaps they want another one. Perhaps you are the one who has had an abortion or are considering one.

We understand that those reasons would compel you to remain anonymous, and we understand that. But if you're just asking a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

Pragmatism, Political Compromise, and Fear of Man

Now, one of the things that has disturbed me greatly, I'm a Pennsylvanian now. I used to, as you may remember, live in New York for most of my entire life until 2014. And in Pennsylvania here, we lost a Senate race.

We lost a gubernatorial race. And I've been hearing a lot of conservatives, or I should say professed conservatives, in the media, and even at least one during a conversation during a Bible study, that was blaming the Republican candidates that won the primaries and were the representatives of the Republican Party in both of those races, the Senate and the gubernatorial race.

They were saying those candidates were absolutely wrong for Pennsylvania because they were far too staunch on abortion. They didn't want any exceptions. They didn't want rape to be an exception. They didn't want incest to be an exception.

They didn't want the life of the mother or the health of the mother to be an exception. And these so-called conservatives, including a number of people talking heads on Fox News, were saying, we've got to play a better game.

We've got to develop a different strategy in states, especially, where a much more staunch conservative and a much more rigid abortion abolitionist is not the representative of the Republican Party. We need in those states people running who are more moderate.

And that gets my blood to boil, especially when I hear a professing Christian making those comments. How do you respond to that? And how do you respond, especially, to the warning by these people? Hey, we're never going to be elected into office.

You keep playing this game. You keep playing the card of being the staunch conservative abolitionist on abortion. So how do you respond to these people?

Well, it's not surprising, obviously, Chris, to hear people talk like that. But really, at the end of the day, that's sort of pragmatism driving politics. So there's no real anchor that's placed in the deep soil of scripture, for instance, that would cause an individual to take a stand based on theology and conviction and principle that is consistent with the fact that God has created life, and we have no right to take a human life in the sense of murdering an individual like a small baby in the womb of the mother.

And so when we start thinking about the situation with politics, it should not really shock us to hear politicians talk like that, because what they're willing to do is they're willing to sort of shift their positions in order to get elected to office.

And so we have to remember that, again, our culture, by and large, is very much dark. It is very much unconverted and progressive. And so it's going to drive these politicians away from the truth of genuine justice for all and equal protection for the pre-born.

So, again, I would oppose that. But I think that in the life of the church, we need to avoid being driven by pragmatism. And certainly in the case of, you know, something like a politician trying to gain a seat or a specific office, they should never be willing to sacrifice children on the altar of getting elected to office.

That's a tragedy.

So how do you specifically respond, let's say, especially when you're talking about Christians that are using the same pragmatic approach that the conservative secularists are using? They say, hey, love you, brother.

I agree with you. I don't want any kind of an abortion ever occurring in the United States, but we're don't somehow compromise. And, you know, it's interesting because, especially in the 21st century, you're rarely, if ever, going to hear people compromising.

If there was a city or state in this nation that was still known for its abhorrent racism, they still wanted to promote Jim Crow laws. Now, I know that there's no such city or state that I'm aware of that comes close to that today.

But it's as if anyone would ever dare consider, well, we've got to compromise on that. And there were people in the 60s doing that, especially in the Democratic Party. But, well, we've got to give in to a little bit of their racism.

We've got to appeal to some of their prohibitions against integration and all that, if you follow what I'm saying. But how do you respond to these people about the outcomes? And I'm assuming it's really, to throw theology into the mix here, it's really an Arminian mindset, isn't it?

And even reformed people can be guilty of not trusting in the sovereignty of God over all these things. But if you could.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think my response would just simply be this. First of all, it's a fear of man issue. So if we claim that we have to compromise on the issue of life so that we can gain political ground in the political sphere, then that's certainly the fear of man rather than the fear of God category.

And I think that that's a massive problem. I would also flip the table to individuals that speak like that. And I would just urge them to think about the reality that if we stand with God, even if we stand all alone, we're never in the minority.

We're always on the right side of things. And the right side of history is to stand with God and not with whatever the popular opinion might be. And so, you know, we don't have to compromise to butcher children in order to gain political ground.

We need to stand faithfully, preach the God, just just just preach the word of God faithfully. We need to be able to stand and to boldly proclaim the truth of God's word, the law of God, to apply the law of God to the situation and not back up on it for the sake of political expediency or whatever it might be in the sphere of politics.

We just can't do that. It would be it would be non-Christian to act that way. And so unfortunately, it's not just an Arminian position or a fear of man issue. It's really a non-Christian position altogether.

Prosecution, Church Involvement, and Graphic Witness

Well, we have a listener in Findlay, Ohio, Cindy, who has actually several questions, and they're all very good. The first is, do you think a woman having an abortion should be prosecuted?

Yeah, well, I mean, again, I think that the answer to that question is, is what does the law say? Right. And so I would say that I am for the the prosecution of murderers.

OK.

So the idea that the pro-life industry and the feminist movement and the radical liberals will will say is that if you stand for the full abolition of abortion, what you're doing is you're actually standing for the criminalization of women.

Well, that's actually not true. We're not actually standing for the criminalization of women. What we're standing for is for equal protection under the law. And so if someone murders someone, then they need to be held accountable according to God's law.

Now, again, as we have this conversation about, you know, whether women should be held accountable and whether they should be prosecuted for murder. Again, we have to remember that we have a robust justice system.

And, you know, the laws can be written in such a way that protect women who are being, you know, used as a product sold to to men in the prostitution industry and forced to get an abortion. Well, obviously, we would not, you know, prosecute a woman like that.

We would actually prosecute the pimp who's actually using her as a product to be sold to two evil men. Right. So the idea that if you abolish abortion and if you criminalize women for having an abortion, that you're actually attacking women, that is absolutely not true.

We are actually standing for the law, which states that the law would hold murderers accountable. And that's critically important to this conversation. So in many ways, we have to unplug the emotional plug from our hearts and start asking ourselves honest questions about whether or not, you know, we should allow for a woman to be prosecuted under the law if she places her children in a car seat and then drives her car down a boat ramp into a lake.

And, you know, murders her three year old little boy. You know, is that is that something that we should allow for women to be prosecuted for? And the answer to that is yes. And the same thing is true when it comes to women who intentionally engage in the act of murdering an unborn baby in her or their womb.

If if the laws are written in such a way that abortion is considered to be murder, then yes, I would definitely stand for the prosecution of of everyone who commits murder.

Cindy's second question is, should churches as a community be more involved in what way and in opposing abortion?

Well, I think that churches can get involved in the process of of opposing abortion in various different capacities.

Right.

So you can you can be involved in in women's health clinics that, you know, churches and other Christians support in a local community that would, you know, give women opportunities to, you know, have their children to care for their children, to provide some means of health care if they don't have access to health care, provide them with certain resources that they might need or even connect them with opportunities for adoption.

And I think that that's critically important to this conversation as well. So there are churches, you know, all over the United States that engage in this type of ministry. And we have a faithful brother who's a member of our church.

His name is Bobby McCreary.

Love Bobby.

I've interviewed him on this program and look forward to getting him back.

Yeah.

Bobby's a faithful brother and he's out at abortion mills almost every day preaching the gospel. They will offer to help, you know, connect, you know, these mothers with opportunities for adoption. And so they do see babies saved, you know, and it's a it's a wonderful thing.

And so churches can get involved that way. And I would certainly encourage that as well. So it's not just about calling representatives or, you know, standing and opposing abortion. It's also by getting involved in opportunities to be an answer to the problem.

And so preaching the gospel, I think, is critically important in this whole process is because you can change people's mind. You know, you can actually change a person's mind by, you know, emotional guilt or whatever it might be.

But what we as Christians want to do is we want to convince these people to hear the word of God, to understand the law of God, and then to bow to Christ and see their hearts transformed and for, you know, these mothers to become faithful, godly mothers to their children.

But if they're unwilling to do that, obviously, we would love the opportunity to talk to them about, you know, adoption solutions and opportunities to save the very life of their unborn child.

The Use of Graphic Signs and Visual Images

Now, forgive me, folks, for allowing Cindy from Findlay, Ohio, to hog up so much of the airtime, but her questions are excellent. What are your thoughts on graphic signs abortion clinic ministries use?

Yeah, I think that's an individual person's choice. I don't oppose it. I think it's real. It is certainly graphic. It is, you know, rated R if you want to use that category. But at the end of the day, has God used a sign like that to cause someone to see the reality that this is what abortion actually is?

It's the dismembering of a human baby in the womb of its mother. And again, I think that it can be useful. Some Christians choose to not use signs like that. They see it as, you know, a bit offensive or, you know, whatever else they choose to, you know, to employ or use other means.

And that's certainly their own choice. But I would certainly not condemn it. If someone wants to use graphical signs like that, I think it's certainly within the boundaries of possibilities for Christians to use to oppose abortion.

And we've got one more question from Cindy that we will ask when we return from the break. And for everybody else that would like to ask a question, we do have a few people waiting to have their questions asked and answered already.

But if you want to get in line, send in your email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us a first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And by the way, folks, those of you listening to this interview via Josh Bice's Twitter live stream, you're not going to be hearing the commercials. During our station breaks, Josh is going to be speaking and giving you more information, perhaps dialoguing with you.

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That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

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But before I do that, I wanted to ask you a question of your own, because it relates to your answer to Cindy's question on graphic signs that abortion clinic ministries use. I have been a long-time proponent of having conservatives, those who believe abortion is murder, somehow getting a film of an abortion nationally televised or at least, at the very least, locally televised every time there is an election, and I think that every conservative and republican that claims to be in favor of protecting human life in the womb should be in favor of this too, so that people who are voting can vote intelligently.

They see what is actually happening, just like back in the mid -20th century after World War II, there were many people all over the world that refused to believe that the Holocaust actually occurred until film crews took tours of those death camps in the formerly Nazi-occupied areas, and the similar thing, I think, would be equally valuable for the abortion abolishment movement.