January 11, 2023 Show with Josh Buice on “The Call to Abolish Abortion”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 11th day of January, 2023.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a very dear friend who is one of my favorite guests of all time to interview, and he will be no stranger to the vast majority of the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience. His name is Josh Bice, pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, and founder and president of G3 Ministries.

We're going to be addressing a vital theme today, the call to abolish abortion, and we're also going to be announcing the 2023

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. And it's my honor and privilege and thrill to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend,

Pastor Josh Bice. Hey, good to be with you, Chris. Well, for the sake of our listeners, and I'm sure it's a minority of our listeners who have not yet heard about you, have never heard one of our previous interviews, perhaps, tell our listeners about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

Yeah, thanks, Chris. So Praise Mill Baptist Church is a 181 -year -old church on the west side of Atlanta, Georgia.

We are a Reformed Baptist church. We affiliate with the

G3 Church Network, and again, just a privilege to serve as pastor of this congregation.

I grew up here in the life of this church as a boy, met my wife here, and then in God's good providence was called back to serve as pastor here about 12 1⁄2 years ago now.

Praise God. And for those of you who want to find out more information about this historic church, go to PraiseMill .com,

and that's spelled P -R -A -Y -S -Mill .com. And we hope that you find that website informative.

We hope that if you live in this area of Douglasville, Georgia, or are visiting there, or you have family, friends, and loved ones in or near there, that you either visit this church yourself or urge those that you love near there to visit this fine church.

Also, tell us about the upcoming 2023 G3 Regional Conference.

I'm thrilled that, God willing, I will be returning to this conference. It has been the highlight of my years for nearly a decade, and I just have such great enthusiasm no matter what

I am going through in my life that gets me down, depressed. When I think of the G3 Conference, I get pumped up again.

Tell us about this conference. Yeah, Chris. So again, it's the national conference this year.

You were with us at the regional conference up in D .C., but now we're preparing for this year for the national conference.

Yeah, sorry if I misspoke there. It's the G3 National Conference. Yeah, it's going to be in September. We're looking forward to it.

The theme is going to be on the sovereignty of God, and so we're going to be unpacking the sovereignty of God on various different levels from a theological perspective in the main sessions, and then we're going to unpack some practical aspects of the sovereignty of God in the breakout sessions.

It's going to be a thrill to be back together once again. Since we made our transition back in 2020,

Chris, this is important to note, is that the national conference is now on a biennial rotation, so that means it's every other year.

And so we will be back again together this coming up September, and so we would heavily encourage those who have never been to a

G3 conference to join us. You can certainly find out more information at g3min .org.

Yes, and then click Events, and then click on the Sovereignty of God, God as Sovereign Overall, and that's

September 21st through the 23rd, and I will be repeating this information in addition to airing commercials throughout this broadcast, and the commercials are going to be, you're going to hear the wonderful voice of my dear friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and the speakers this year include

Steve Lawson, Votie Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Annual, James White, and the guest that we are privileged to interview today,

Josh Bice. So we'll get back to that later on. Now, I've been getting a lot of emails, perhaps you can explain this, of people who seem to be rejoicing over you choosing this topic today.

In social media, a lot of people have been celebrating that you want to address the call to abolish abortion, and I don't know if they are mistaken or not, but there seems to be an opinion that you have somehow changed an opinion, a political approach or something on this issue.

I know that you've always been against infanticide, of course, as a genuinely regenerate

Christian, but why am I hearing this from listeners who are celebrating that you're talking about this as if something has changed?

Yeah, I mean, I guess probably the main thing that has changed, Chris, has been the fact that for many years, as you've stated,

I've been opposed to abortion. Obviously, my entire life

I've been opposed to abortion, but I've oftentimes considered myself a struggling incrementalist, meaning that I was willing to work within the boundaries of political spheres to maybe in some cases say, well, if we can take a step in the right direction, then

I'm going to be for that. But over the last, say, couple of years, I've become convinced that the incrementalist approach to the subject of abortion is really in many ways going to be a one step forward, two steps back, three steps forward, one step back approach to ending human abortion.

And so I look at the pro -life industry and I see that there are many people who would consider themselves to be pro -life and not really falling within the boundary of abolitionist or within the circles of those who would categorize themselves as such.

And many of those people are great, godly people, and they certainly want to see abortion ended.

But I've come to the realization in the last couple of years that I really firmly believe that there is no way forward in the pro -life movement to truly end abortion, specifically after this past year with the fall of Roe v.

Wade. So, yeah, I would call myself at this point an abolitionist, and I just want to see abortion completely, forever, and finally ended.

So I'm assuming that the difference is you've already included a big part of the difference in your explanation, but you are going to settle and you want the body of Christ to settle for nothing less than a total abolishing of abortion.

No heartbeat bills, no things that you would, as you described them before, as incrementalism where we're taking one tiny step at a time.

In fact, that was what many white

Christians were urging the civil rights movement to do. They were trying to get people like Dr.

Martin Luther King, and believe me, folks, I'm no fan of everything that Martin Luther King stood for, especially in his theology, but there were many people in the

United States who were basically saying, you're rushing this, let's do this responsibly, slowly, to really get things eventually accomplished.

Am I overstretching here to see a parallel there?

Yeah, I think so, Chris. Again, my problem with that whole approach to taking just one step forward and maybe inching our way towards the finish line is that I think, really, if you just pull back and you're honest as a

Christian, what you have to do with heartbeat bills is you have to actually look at a heartbeat bill and say, okay, well, if this is law in my state, then what this means is that as a

Christian, I am actually standing for a system that creates two classes of babies.

One class of babies are going to be protected by the law as a human being, and then another class of babies are not going to be protected by the law, and they're actually going to be turned over to murderous individuals who have the intent to take the life of that human being.

And as a Christian, I can't do that. I can't stand for a law that's going to say, we're going to protect some babies, but not all babies.

And tell us about how Christians who are looking upon themselves as too small and insignificant to even make a difference about this issue.

What is it that you believe Christians not only can tangibly do, but should or perhaps even must?

Yeah, I think it starts with getting yourself involved. And I think one of the easiest ways to do that beyond just praying daily for opportunities to advance this cause in your own state, but would be to just call your representatives.

So the individuals that are elected by the people, find out who your representative is, and then call that individual, have honest conversations about the fact that they need to be standing for the pre -born.

They need to be standing for equal protection under the law for all. And you can really have just honest conversations with a representative and just ask good questions like, in other words, do you believe in justice for all?

And do you believe that all babies are human beings from conception?

And if you have a representative that will agree to those things, then you can press the conversation in the direction that to be consistent with the law and with genuine real biblical justice, then we really need to advocate for equal protection for all people, which means even the pre -born.

And so there are ways to do this. We have a page set up at our website at g3men .org.

If you were to search on that website for equal protection, you will be able to see the page there, but you can also go to endabortionnow .com

forward slash GA. And that will give you just an example of some of the things that you can do, like say here in the state of Georgia and the state or that specific website is set up for the state of Georgia that I've just referenced.

But there are other states that are represented that same way on that website. And what you will see is just clear information that will connect you with representatives, opportunities for you to email or call and have these conversations.

So that's really the easiest way for the average Christian in a local church to get involved in this process.

By the way, I'm going to give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Pastor Josh Bice on this issue of abolishing abortion.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you have a child who is considering an abortion. You have a child who's already had an abortion.

Perhaps they want another one. Perhaps you are the one who has had an abortion or are considering one.

We understand that those reasons would compel you to remain anonymous, and we understand that, but if you're just asking a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

Now, one of the things that has disturbed me greatly,

I'm a Pennsylvanian now. I used to, as you may remember, live in New York for most of my entire life until 2014, and in Pennsylvania here, we lost a

Senate race, we lost a gubernatorial race, and I've been hearing a lot of conservatives, or I should say professed conservatives, in the media, and even at least one during a conversation, during a

Bible study, that was blaming the Republican candidates that won the primaries and were the representatives of the

Republican party in both of those races, the Senate and the gubernatorial race. They were saying those candidates were absolutely wrong for Pennsylvania because they were far too staunch on abortion.

They didn't want any exceptions, they didn't want rape to be an exception, they didn't want incest to be an exception, they didn't want the life of the mother or the health of the mother to be an exception, and these so -called conservatives, including a number of people talking heads on Fox News, were saying, we've got to play a better game, we've got to develop a different strategy in states especially, where a much more staunch conservative and a much more rigid abortion abolitionist is not the representative of the

Republican party. We need in those states people running who are more moderate, and that gets my blood to boil, especially when

I hear a professing Christian making those comments. How do you respond to that, and how do you respond especially to the warning by these people, hey, we're never going to be elected into office, you keep playing this game, you keep playing the card of being the staunch conservative abolitionist on abortion.

So how do you respond to these people? Well, it's not surprising, obviously, Chris, to hear people talk like that, but really at the end of the day, that's sort of pragmatism driving politics.

So there's no real anchor that's placed in the deep soil of scripture, for instance, that would cause an individual to take a stand based on theology and conviction and principle that is consistent with the fact that God has created life and we have no right to take a human life in the sense of murdering an individual like a small baby in the womb of the mother.

And so when we start thinking about the situation with politics, it should not really shock us to hear politicians talk like that, because what they're willing to do is they're willing to sort of shift their positions in order to get elected to office.

And so we have to remember that, again, our culture by and large is very much dark, it is very much unconverted and progressive.

And so it's going to drive these politicians away from the truth of genuine justice for all and equal protection for the preborn.

So, again, I would oppose that. I think that in the life of the church, we need to avoid being driven by pragmatism.

And certainly in the case of something like a politician trying to gain a seat or a specific office, they should never be willing to sacrifice children on the altar of getting elected to office.

That's a tragedy. So how do you specifically respond, let's say, especially when you're talking about Christians that are using the same pragmatic approach that the conservative secularists are using?

They say, hey, love you, brother. I agree with you. I don't want any kind of abortion ever occurring in the

United States, but we're never going to have people who agree with us elected if we don't somehow compromise.

And it's interesting because, especially in the 21st century, you're rarely, if ever, going to hear people compromising if there was a city or state in this nation that was still known for its abhorrent racism.

They still wanted to promote Jim Crow laws. Now, I know that there's no such city or state that I'm aware of that comes close to that today, but it's as if anyone would ever dare consider, well, we've got to compromise on that.

And there were people in the 60s doing that, especially in the Democratic Party. But we've got to give in to a little bit of their racism.

We've got to appeal to some of their prohibitions against integration and all that, if you follow what

I'm saying. But how do you respond to these people about the outcomes?

And I'm assuming it's really, to throw theology into the mix here, it's really an

Arminian mindset, isn't it? And even reformed people can be guilty of not trusting in the sovereignty of God over all these things.

But if you could. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think my response would just simply be this.

First of all, it's a fear of man issue. So, if we claim that we have to compromise on the issue of life so that we can gain political ground in the political sphere, then that's certainly the fear of man rather than the fear of God category.

And I think that that's a massive problem. I would also flip the table to individuals that speak like that.

And I would just urge them to think about the reality that if we stand with God, even if we stand all alone, we're never in the minority.

We're always on the right side of things. And the right side of history is to stand with God and not with whatever the popular opinion might be.

And so, you know, we don't have to compromise to butcher children in order to gain political ground.

We need to stand faithfully, preach the God, just preach the word of God faithfully.

We need to be able to stand and to boldly proclaim the truth of God's word, the law of God, to apply the law of God to the situation and not back up on it for the sake of political expediency or, you know, whatever it might be in the sphere of politics.

We just can't do that. It would be non -Christian to act that way. And so, unfortunately, it's not just an

Arminian position or a fear of man issue. It's really a non -Christian position altogether.

Well, we have a listener in Findlay, Ohio, Cindy, who has actually several questions, and they're all very good.

The first is, do you think a woman having an abortion should be prosecuted? Yeah, well,

I mean, again, I think that the answer to that question is, is what does the law say?

Right. And so I would say that I am for the prosecution of murderers.

OK. OK. So the idea that the pro -life industry and the feminist movement and the radical liberals will say is that if you stand for the full abolition of abortion, what you're doing is you're actually standing for the criminalization of women.

Well, that's actually not true. We're not actually standing for the criminalization of women. What we're standing for is for equal protection under the law.

And so if someone murders someone, then they need to be held accountable according to God's law.

Now, again, as we have this conversation about whether women should be held accountable and whether they should be prosecuted for murder, again, we have to remember that we have a robust justice system.

And, you know, the laws can be written in such a way that protect women who are being, you know, used as a product sold to men in the prostitution industry and forced to get an abortion.

Well, obviously we would not, you know, prosecute a woman like that.

We would actually prosecute the pimp who's actually using her as a product to be sold to evil men.

So the idea that if you abolish abortion and if you criminalize women for having an abortion that you're actually attacking women, that is absolutely not true.

We are actually standing for the law, which states that the law would hold murderers accountable.

And that's critically important to this conversation. So in many ways, we have to unplug the emotional plug from our hearts and start asking ourselves honest questions about whether or not, you know, we should allow for a woman to be prosecuted under the law if she places her children in a car seat and then drives her car down a boat ramp into a lake.

And, you know, murders her three year old little boy. You know, is that is that something that we should allow for women to be prosecuted for?

And the answer to that is yes. And the same thing is true when it comes to women who intentionally engage in the act of murdering an unborn baby in her or their womb.

If if the laws are written in such a way that abortion is considered to be murder, then yes,

I would definitely stand for the prosecution of of everyone who commits murder. Cindy's second question is, should churches as a community be more involved in what way and in opposing abortion?

Well, I think that churches can get involved in the process of of opposing abortion in various different capacities.

Right. So you can you can be involved in in women's health clinics that, you know, churches and other

Christians support in a local community that would, you know, give women opportunities to, you know, have their children to care for their children, to provide some means of access to health care if they don't have access to health care, provide them with certain resources that they might need or even connect them with opportunities for adoption.

And I think that that's critically important to this conversation as well. So there are churches, you know, all over the

United States that engage in this type of ministry. And we have a faithful brother who's a member of our church.

His name is Bobby McCreary. Love Bobby. Love Bobby. I've interviewed him on this program and look forward to getting him back.

Yeah. Bobby's a faithful brother and he's out at abortion mills almost every day preaching the gospel.

They will offer to help, you know, connect, you know, these mothers with opportunities for adoption.

And so they do see babies saved, you know, and it's a it's a wonderful thing. And so churches can get involved that way.

And I would certainly encourage that as well. So it's not just about calling representatives or, you know, standing and opposing abortion.

It's also by getting involved in opportunities to be an answer to the problem. And so preaching the gospel,

I think, is critically important in this whole process is because you can change people's mind.

You know, you can actually change a person's mind by, you know, emotional guilt or whatever it might be.

But what we as Christians want to do is we want to convince these people to hear the word of God, to understand the law of God, and then to bow to Christ and see their hearts transformed.

And for, you know, these mothers to become faithful, godly mothers to their children. But if they're unwilling to do that, obviously, we would love the opportunity to talk to them about, you know, adoption solutions and opportunities to save the very life of their unborn child.

Now, forgive me, folks, for allowing Cindy from Findlay, Ohio, to hog up so much of the airtime, but her questions are excellent.

What are your thoughts on graphic signs abortion clinic ministries use?

Yeah, I think that's an individual person's choice. I don't oppose it. I think it's real.

It is certainly graphic. It is, you know, rated R if you want to use that category.

But at the end of the day, has God used a sign like that to cause someone to see the reality that this is what abortion actually is.

It's the dismembering of a human baby in the womb of its mother.

And again, I think that it can be useful. Some Christians choose to not use signs like that.

They see it as, you know, offensive or, you know, whatever else they choose to, you know, to employ or use other means.

And that's certainly their own choice. But I would certainly not condemn it. If someone wants to use graphical signs like that,

I think it's certainly within the boundaries of possibilities for Christians to use to oppose abortion.

And we've got one more question from Cindy that we will ask when we return from the break.

And for everybody else that would like to ask a question, we do have a few people waiting to have their questions asked and answered already.

But if you want to get in line, send in your email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And by the way, folks, those of you listening to this interview via Josh Bice's Twitter live stream, you're not going to be hearing the commercials.

During our station breaks, Josh is going to be speaking and giving you more information, perhaps dialoguing with you.

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On a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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We are returning to the question, the final question, from Cindy in Findlay, Ohio for you,

Pastor Josh. But before I do that, I wanted to ask you a question of your own because it relates to your answer to Cindy's question on graphic signs that abortion clinic ministries use.

I have been a long -time proponent of having conservatives, those who believe abortion is murder, somehow getting a film of an abortion nationally televised or at least, at the very least, locally televised every time there is an election.

And I think that every conservative and Republican that claims to be in favor of protecting human life in the womb should be in favor of this too, so that people who are voting can vote intelligently.

They see what is actually happening. Just like back in the mid -20th century after World War II, there were many people all over the world that refused to believe that the

Holocaust actually occurred until film crews took tours of those death camps in the formerly

Nazi -occupied areas. And the similar thing,

I think, would be equally valuable for the abortion abolishment movement.

And I was shocked years ago when Pat Buchanan, who was considered the poster boy for conservatism, professedly pro -life, very strongly so, he was being interviewed on a talk show being run by the radio station

I formerly worked for, WMCA, 570 AM in New York. And I called in, it was a live call -in show,

I called in when Pat Buchanan was being interviewed, and I said that very thing, why don't we have a movement started where a film of an abortion is televised?

And he said, oh, we wouldn't want to do that, and I said, why on earth not? And he said, well, that would be like televising an execution.

And I said, that's my point! But what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think if you can use that and it can awaken people or even representatives to the truth of what's happening, or those people who are actually going to the polls to elect representatives or politicians, then yeah,

I mean, I think that that can be helpful, obviously. I'm not in opposition to using graphical signs and images as a whole.

I just think it's left up to the conscience of each individual in that specific case.

So I don't think it's mandated that we do it, but I also don't think that we should forbid that we use anything like that.

So I think that it could be helpful in certain circumstances like the very thing that you just explained.

In fact, the woman who led me to Christ in the 1980s, she convinced a woman who was a crack addict, she convinced this woman not to have an abortion, even though her physician urged her to get an abortion.

Because the physician was convinced that her drug use would have in some way deformed the baby in her womb or made the baby addicted itself.

He was going on with a litany of reasons why he was urging the woman to kill her baby.

My friend, Susan, who led me to Christ, did something as simple as sitting down with her with a photograph book of the stages of development of a baby in the womb.

And this was back in the 80s when we don't even have nearly the technology of photography and film.

And that woman did not have an abortion and her baby was born perfectly normal. So there is power in visual images for sure.

The last question that Cindy from Findley, Ohio has is what are your thoughts on birth control pills and morning after pills?

Yeah, I mean I think that we have to oppose any sort of drug, any sort of medicine, anything that's going to potentially take the life of a human being.

And again, I think that if we believe, as the scripture teaches, that life begins at conception, if we believe the clear teachings of the

Bible when it comes to God knitting us together in our mother's womb, again, that's what the psalmist says in Psalm 139, that I think that we have to oppose any sort of medication or drug that would potentially take the life that God has placed in the womb of the mother and to cause that life to cease is problematic.

And so, yeah, I would say we have to oppose anything like that. And so when we talk about, you know, in vitro fertilization and all sorts of ethics that are at play there as well, and we have to be very cautious as to the methods that are being used, because if they're using life for medical practices or for experiments or whatever it might be, then we need to stand against that.

And so, yeah, again, I would just oppose any sort of morning after pills or anything that would potentially take the life of an unborn child.

And I think that we have to be consistent as Christians on this issue, because, again, if we're going to stand against aborting children at, you know, seven months, eight months, nine months, until the very moment that the child is born, then we need to be consistent from the very beginning.

Now, I'm ignorant about pharmaceuticals and most things medical.

Are all birth control pills abortifacients where it's actually destroying a life or killing a baby in its earliest stages?

And also with in vitro fertilization, I know that it involves fertilizing many eggs, and there are some procedures where many of those fertilized eggs, which are human beings, are killed.

But I don't know if they are all involving that. Do you know about either? Again, I'm not an expert on all of that.

I know with in vitro, again, as you mentioned, you know, when you fertilize an egg, then obviously you would only want to fertilize the eggs that you're going to use, right?

So you wouldn't want to fertilize a multiplicity of eggs and then discard them after the process of success.

So, again, that's problematic. And then when it comes to birth control, obviously you have certain types of birth control, which, you know, again, that's a completely different subject in terms of, you know, whether or not

Christians should stand for or, you know, support any means of birth control.

But there are certain methods of birth control that would not be taking the life of an unborn child or altering

God's plan in that regard. So we have to understand there's a difference between those two different methods or approaches.

But, again, anything that's going to be taking the life of an unborn child, we as Christians, it's really not up for debate at that point.

Well, we are going to our midway break. And please be patient with us because the midway break is a little longer than the other breaks in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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Before I return to Josh Bice and our discussion on abolishing abortion, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

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The Call to Abolish Abortion. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Pastor Bice, tell us something about the opposition that you are actually receiving and those who are abortion abolitionists are receiving from the pro -life movement.

Yeah, so again, Chris, this whole conversation related to abolition versus incrementalism and that sort of thing, it brings into conversation the pro -life movement.

And I think it's critically important to recognize that there was a bill that was placed up for legislation in Louisiana, and they actually had the votes necessary basically to pass this bill.

And it was going to provide for equal protection of the pre -born under the state law, and it was going to abolish abortion.

But at almost the 11th hour, you might say, these massive pro -life organizations locked arms together and they wrote a letter to the legislators basically demanding that they not support this bill.

And so the bill failed. And I think that it's critically important to recognize, and it may be somewhat shocking to some

Christians that are hearing this for the first time, that it wasn't radical feminists that killed this bill.

It wasn't someone wearing a shirt standing on the sidewalk that stated, save the whales, while holding signs that stated that abortion is reproductive freedom for women.

No, it was actually the pro -life movement. It was the pro -life industry that killed the bill.

Now, when I say that, immediately there are people out there that consider themselves to be incrementalists, they consider themselves to be pro -life and all this.

And at the end of the day, what I would say is I think it's important for us to distinguish between some

God -honoring, biblically consistent abolitionists that work within the framework of the pro -life movement.

Distinguish those people from the pro -life industry. The pro -life industry is, in and of itself, a real industry.

It brings in millions and millions and millions of dollars, powerful organizations, right?

In fact, I want to just read, if I may, just a portion of a letter that was written by the

National Right to Life Organization with other pro -life organizations.

They signed this letter in May of 2022, just last year, and they were basically writing this letter to all legislators of the

United States of America. It was an open letter. And you can actually find this letter right there on the

National Right to Life Organization's homepage. It's linked there, so you can find this really easily.

But I just want to read a portion of this letter so that you can kind of understand the pro -life industry and how they are standing against this movement to abolish abortion.

Listen to this. It says, quote, In 1977, the

National Right to Life president, Dr. Mildred Jefferson, observed in her welcome letter to those attending the annual

National Right to Life convention, quote, The fight for the right to life is a people's fight for its existence and its continuity.

It is a country's fight for its survival and its future. The right to life cause is not the concern of only a special few, but it should be the cause of all those who care about fairness and justice, love and compassion, and liberty with law.

Our charge as a movement has not strayed from those words written by Dr.

Jefferson. In fighting for our country's future generations, we are called to act with love and compassion as we seek fairness, justice, and liberty for unborn children and their mothers.

Now, just stop there. Listen to the very next words in this letter. Criminalizing women is antithetical to this charge.

We will continue to oppose legislative and policy initiatives that criminalize women who seek abortions, and we will continue to work for initiatives that protect unborn children and policies that provide and strengthen life -affirming resources for abortion -vulnerable women.

Now, listen to this. This is the last statement. We call upon all pro -life legislators to stand with us.

We ask you to continue to act with love and compassion toward abortion -vulnerable women.

We urge you to reject any measure that seeks to criminalize women who have abortions," end quote.

Now, I recognize that was a rather lengthy quote from this letter, but when you hear that, that's coming from the pro -life industry.

That's coming from the National Right to Life Organization and other pro -life organizations written to lawmakers of the

United States of America urging any measure that seeks to criminalize women who have abortions to be rejected.

Now, again, when you hear that, as Christians, I think that what we need to hear is we need to hear the accent of radical feminism that's been repackaged with a nice little bow and that's been advanced by the pro -life movement in the

United States of America. This is completely antithetical to God's Word.

You know, Chris, as we hear that type of letter written to lawmakers, we need to remember as Christians what the Bible says.

The Bible says in Isaiah 520, Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.

And the Bible also says in Proverbs 1715, He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the

Lord. So, in other words, Chris, I think that we as Christians need to understand that we can't just give money to the pro -life movement and these pro -life organizations without knowing where they stand on these issues.

If they stand for what this specific letter stands for, in other words, you can see at the bottom of the letter, it's linked there on their website.

If an organization that signed this letter, if you're giving money to that organization or supporting that organization, you need to break fellowship immediately.

This is antithetical to the Word of God and it stands against the clear teachings of the

Bible. Let me ask you something very controversial that might get me in trouble.

But do you see a parallel here to those that are very recognizable to most people who watch television and have computers and see what's going on in the world in various forms of media, where there are people who have made a very lucrative livelihood by drumming up racial tension constantly for decades who refuse to admit that anything at all has improved in relationships between blacks and whites and whites and other so -called minority groups because they need the idea of racism being just as bad as it ever was, if not worse, in order to fill their own coffers on an ongoing basis.

Their livelihoods are threatened if people were convinced that racism, racial bigotry has diminished to any significant point.

Do you see a parallel with some, since you mentioned yourself that these are multi -million dollar organizations, many of them.

Am I overstretching here? Not at all, Chris. In fact, that's very consistent.

And I think it's important for you to make note of it. Yes, I mean, you've interviewed me on this subject on your show some time back, basically right after the release of the statement on social justice and the gospel.

And I said on your show, on a couple of different occasions, I think, that individuals like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, those types of individuals in the organizations that they're connected to, they can't ever come to the place where they actually agree that systemic racism as a whole in our nation doesn't exist the way it did in the past.

They can't ever come to the place where they actually say that we've actually advanced the cause on these issues to a point to where, yes, there's a such thing as real racism, and certainly in certain pockets or certain organizations or even individuals, you're going to see racism rear its ugly head at times.

But if they ever come to the place where they agree with us that the system is not rigged against people of various different ethnicities beyond the white population, then they suddenly have to find another job because that's what they've given their lives to.

And in that same exact vein, which is really good for you to point out, the pro -life organizations that bring in millions and millions and millions of dollars, if they ever get to a place to where abortion is completely abolished, now these massive, powerful organizations are no longer needed, and these executives have to go find another job someplace else.

And so I just love individuals, my brothers who consider themselves to be abolitionists and have been doing this for a very long time.

They long for the day when they don't have to do this anymore. They long for the day when they don't have to go to abortion mills and stand there on the sidewalk and preach the gospel anymore.

They long for the day when this is not even a possibility in the sense of legal murder of babies.

And so, again, yeah, you are spot on in that specific question.

And I'm sure what you meant by what you said was they'll always want to stand on street corners preaching the gospel, but not at abortion clinics.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, share the gospel, evangelize, but not having to stand on the sidewalk of an abortion mill that allows for the legal murder of babies in our states.

Yeah, we long for the day when that's no longer a thing. The only thing I disagree with you about in your statements is that I do believe there exists real systemic institutionalized racism, but it is against white heterosexual men.

That is clearly in existence when you have Ivy League schools and other institutions that are highly praised for their value in society, when not only white heterosexual males, but even conservative white females and Asians are being treated with bigotry by giving preferential treatment to the darker skin element of the society just because of the very fact that they have darker skin and more melanin content.

Yeah, yeah, so I don't want to get off into the deep weeds in this conversation, obviously, about racism and systemic racism and all of that, but what

I will say that it is connected to the issue of abortion in the sense that, like,

I've been out with my brother, Bobby McCreary. I mentioned him earlier in this conversation. I've been out to the abortion mill in Atlanta with him and other brothers and stood on the sidewalk and seen plastered on the side of the building a sign that says,

Black Lives Matter. Well, they'll say that at an abortion mill at the same time they're slaughtering hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of little black babies.

Amen, that's right. So, just unbelievable the way that these people think. Yeah, in fact, as you know full well, the whole abortion industry was intended first and foremost to eventually eliminate the black population and the population of other minorities from the face of the earth.

Yes, Margaret Singer was a racist and the abortion industry as a whole is a racist industry and we have to tell the truth about it.

Well, we have a question from Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia. He says,

I would love to hear your assessment of this tweet by Timothy Keller.

Some folks are missing the point of this thread. The Bible tells me that abortion is a sin and great evil, but it doesn't tell me the best way to decrease or end abortion in this country, nor which policies are most effective.

If you could respond to that. Well, again, I think that that's just a clear case of Tim Keller being

Tim Keller and doing what Tim Keller typically does, which is oftentimes leading in a progressively left direction, in a leftward direction.

But again, the Bible doesn't tell us the best ways to stop abortion.

Well, again, how about we just pass laws that state that every human life is to be protected according to the law and to have equal protection.

It's just real simple. Again, this is not rocket science here, Chris. I mean, at the end of the day, if you're a

Christian and you believe that human life begins at conception, at fertilization, and you agree that life is in the hands of God and God is the source of life, and the law of God forbids murder, then we have to stand for equal protection for the pre -born.

And so to state that the Bible doesn't tell us how to stop abortion is just this lazy -minded approach to say, well, if we just take sort of one step forward here and there, so long as we're headed in the right direction, it's okay.

That's never going to solve the problem. It's time for faithful Christians to work together, to put resources together, to band together, and to stand for the pre -born and to do so in such a way that honors

God and that is consistent with honoring His Word and obeying His Word. And so any other form of that is just simply not going to reach the goal and the finish line in abolishing abortion.

It's just not going to work. And by the way, Lou, in Sharpsburg, Georgia, especially since you live in Georgia, you better go to the

G3 conference this September, and you better use the discount promo code

G3ISIR. You've won a lot of books and Bibles and other things by submitting questions to this show, so I know where you live now, so if you don't act according to my demands, you better keep your doors locked 24 -7, pal.

We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

Greetings, brothers. In Proverbs chapter 6, verse 17, we see where our God hates the shedding of innocent blood.

The Israelites even fell into sacrificing babies in the worship of foreign gods.

There's nothing that I can think of more innocent than a little human being in their mother's womb.

Since 1971, we have murdered over 60 million babies. That is atrocious.

Do you believe that we are under the judgment of the true and living God, per Romans 1? Well, let me have you answer that, and then

I'll continue with Grady's other question. Yeah, I think if you look at Romans 1, you will see that we're under the judgment of God.

I firmly believe that in the United States of America. Again, I think that God has

His people here in America. There's no doubt about it. I mean, the true Church of Jesus Christ is alive and is operating and is functioning and is worshiping and is serving and evangelizing, all of that, right here in America.

But I still believe that the Church has for a very long time has been silent when the

Church should have spoken, and I think that we have not spoken up in ways that we should.

In fact, I think that's true for me personally. I think that there have been times when

I should have not stood for certain policies or laws, even like the heartbeat law here in the state of Georgia.

I regret that I didn't oppose it, honestly. Again, I can say that I can publicly repent of that.

I'm not suggesting that anyone who has ever stood for anything to do with pro -life under that banner is necessarily under massive sin categories, but what

I'm suggesting is I believe we can see evidence that God is judging

America, and we are seeing that not only with regard to abortion and all sorts of things of that nature, but we're also seeing it in terms of the redefining of marriage and homosexual marriage, quote -unquote marriage, the transgender movement, all of it.

It's just unbelievable how God is turning us over to the minds of human depravity.

It's a frightening thing to consider. Amen. Actually, the rest of what

Grady has to say is more of a statement than a question. He says in New York City, the last statistics for black babies were over 50%, meaning 50 % of the black babies conceived were murdered.

One of my favorite things about the G3 conference is that you're family -oriented. Lord willing, looking forward to seeing both of you brothers in September.

Well, thanks, Grady, and I want to take this time to publicly thank you for being such a loyal and faithful listener to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and also a very loyal monthly financial supporter.

God bless you, brother, and I look forward to seeing you, God willing, as well this September at the G3 conference.

One thing I wanted to have you clarify, especially if people tuned in late, your reasoning for opposing the heartbeat bill now, you did not oppose it initially, but your reason for opposing it now is that you are saying in doing so, in promoting it and favoring it, that it is tolerable to murder a child before a sonogram can pick up a heartbeat, and on top of that, those kinds of things could be manipulated to favor the murdering of a child by faking the lack of a heartbeat being heard.

But if you could answer that. Yeah, I mean, thank you for asking the question,

Chris. So to be clear, the heartbeat bill has been marketed, if you will, to conservatives and even to the church in a lot of states, including

Georgia, that would cause people to believe that we're actually, as a state, standing against aborting babies and saving babies and that sort of thing.

But the problem with that sort of logic is that when you stand for the heartbeat bill, as you rightly stated, or the heartbeat law, then what you end up with is you end up with two categories.

There's one category whereby babies are actually protected according to the law, and then there's another category where the heartbeat has not yet been detected and that baby is no longer protected according to the law, but is actually given over to the depraved minds of human beings that can choose to murder that child legally if they so choose.

And so as a Christian, I've had to come to the recognition and the realization that, yes, that would be inconsistent with God's word to support that type of law.

And so, as you rightly stated, what you're doing at that point as a

Christian is you're actually saying we're going to trust that murderous organizations and abortionists are actually going to tell us the truth, that they're not going to lie to us.

So we're actually going to trust that Planned Parenthood is not going to tell a lie, but they're willing to murder a baby.

And the reality is, they're going to tell you they didn't detect a heartbeat. And again, regardless of the logic of that, it just really boils down to what

I stated at the front side, is that we have to have equal protection for all preborn babies according to God's word, period.

And to do anything else is going to create a sort of class system that allows for some babies to be protected and other babies to be murdered.

And we as Christians can't do that. We have, let's see,

Thomas in West Islip, Long Island, New York, who says, I have heard that Abby Johnson, the woman whose life unplanned the movie was based upon, has switched from being an incrementalist to being an abortion abolitionist.

Have you heard the same thing? I have no knowledge of that whatsoever, Chris. I could tell you,

Thomas, and you, Josh, that Jeff Durbin told me that. And I don't think

Jeff Durbin would have made that up, obviously. He's very passionate about the abolitionist movement, in favor of it.

And he confirmed that actually, that she who once was an incrementalist, at least at the time,

Jeff told me this at the very least six months ago, that she has switched to an abolitionist position, so I'm assuming she still is.

Yeah. Well, that's certainly good news. But again, we have to recognize as Christians that, and I think, again, if there are people tuning in late to this conversation, is that they're going to be shocked when they come to realize that the pro -life industry, again, that's the industry itself, is going to oppose us at this.

It's going to oppose the position of abolitionism.

It's going to oppose us in the equal protection of the reborn completely and holding people accountable for murder.

It's just going to oppose us. And so we're going to have to labor together and stand faithfully and be prepared for this opposition.

Robert, in West Chester County, New York, says, we who still use the terminology pro -life, just because it's been used for so long, should reconsider using it now,

I'm assuming, according to what you have said, and strictly use such labels as abolitionist.

Are you in agreement that those who may still be using the pro -life label, even if they disagree with incrementalism, should rethink their strategy?

I think it's important to understand how terms and how words are employed in a culture or a society.

So there's wisdom in that thinking. I don't want to be seen as just broad brushing every single pro -life, quote -unquote pro -life

Christian out there. But what I will say is that if you call yourself pro -life, you need to make sure that you define your terms properly.

Again, I was at a meeting recently in Atlanta with a group of pastors, and there was an organization there that is a part of the quote -unquote or under banner of pro -life, but they're very much with us on the full abolition of abortion.

So, again, you just have to define your terms appropriately and make sure that people understand where you stand.

Well, we are going to our final break right now. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you have any intention of sending in a question, please do it immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n z -e -n at gmail dot com

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a very personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Josh Bice right after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Welcome back. Before I take any listener questions, Josh, since we're rapidly approaching the end of the program,

I want to make sure that you have a few minutes of uninterrupted time to really unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds regarding this topic.

Yeah, Chris. Again, as we land the airplane on this conversation, I want to, again, thank you for having me on your show today.

The thing that I would most like to just drive home for all of the Christians who are listening to this very episode is that if we're going to stand upon God's word and if we're going to be consistent

Christians, I believe that we should support the abolition of abortion.

I think that for Christians to really go in any other direction is inconsistent.

And I think that what it does is it allows for the position to stand against most abortion instead of standing against all abortion.

And so I also want to just reiterate what I stated earlier about the fact that to be consistent and to hold to the equal protection of all human beings does not criminalize women or target mothers.

It actually just stands for justice for all. And as we look back over the last several years in the

United States of America, we can certainly see how the word justice has been used and in many ways abused in our culture.

But I would just argue that if we actually do believe in justice for all, then we have to stand against abortion.

You can't stand for justice and then support abortion at the same time.

That's just it's just inconsistent. So I think that the right move forward for us to see abortion abolished is not an incremental approach, but it's actually the approach of abolishing human abortion once and for all.

And so, again, thank you for allowing me to have this conversation with you. Thank you for asking me really helpful questions.

And for all of those who joined us for the conversation, I hope it's been helpful and profitable. Well, the pleasure has been all mine and I'm sure the audience as well.

We do have time for one last question. We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, who wants to know, can you list at least several abolishing abortion ministries that you recommend and perhaps highlight some that we should stop supporting?

Well, I mean, I'll just use this opportunity to, you know, point people in the direction of my friend

Bobby McCreary. You know, he is basically a faithful brother in my local church here.

And he is someone that if you're looking to support someone that does this, you know, every single day of his life.

I mean, this is again, this is what he does. The Lord has freed him up to go to abortion mills and to preach the gospel faithfully.

He also goes beyond abortion mills. He goes to college campuses and various other places and he preaches the gospel.

But you can find him just by Googling his name. Bobby McCreary, To the

Ends of the Earth is his ministry. I would point you in that direction. I would also point you in the direction of End Abortion Now.

I would encourage you to look at their resources, very helpful resources there for states connecting individuals to their representatives to stand against abortion and again to for the equal protection of the preborn.

So those are two specific organizations that I would point you to. Well, folks, do not forget about the

G3 conference, the national conference in Atlanta, Georgia. And I'm so hoping that many of you, if not all of you listening, can attend that conference.

Go to G3Min .org, G3Min .org to register. And please make sure you use the

Iron Sharpens Iron radio discount promo code so that you will get 30 percent off your registration fee.

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Please do that. You'll be helping Iron Sharpens Iron radio by doing so. Also, for those of you interested in finding out more about Praise Mill Baptist Church, the website for that church in Douglasville, Georgia, is

PraiseMill .com, P -R -A -Y -S -Mill .com. And folks, don't forget tomorrow,

Virgil Walker, who is on staff at G3 Ministries, he is going to be joining us as our guest tomorrow.

And he is going to be discussing, Has the Civil Rights Movement Failed the Black Community?

I'm sure that you will find that program fascinating. Josh, thanks so much for being such an absolutely superb guest.

I want to thank everybody for listening today, especially those who took the time to write in questions. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater