Pope Francis’ Inclusivism and the Little Boy Reviewed, Open Phones, Many Topics

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:38

Greetings welcome to the dividing line. I had queued this video up. I think yesterday morning, and then it started going viral

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Today or maybe last night I think someone had sent to me on Twitter one of the only reasons that I continue to use

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Twitter Get some good resource links and things like that.

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I have been saying for a very very very long time Before Pope Francis became the

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Bishop of Rome that the majority of the prelates the

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Magisterium of the Roman Church have abandoned Historic Roman Catholic doctrine on the issue of who goes to heaven and who does not

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I don't think there's any question about this You still have conservatives

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They tend to be the ones involved in apologetics. Obviously liberals don't do apologetics. They're apologizing not doing apologetics and The two perspectives that you can have as a as a liberal

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Would generally fall into the categories of inclusivism and Universalism.

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Now universalism is fairly straightforward No one's going to be punished.

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No one's going to be lost There is salvation for everyone there there might be a

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Punishment for a period of time, but everyone will experience redemption That's certainly not the teaching historically of the

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Roman Catholic Church. No one can seriously suggest that it ever has been Inclusivism is a little bit harder.

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I think for people to wrap their mind their minds around Especially if you've been raised in a conservative environment

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I debated John Sanders and inclusivist a number of years ago At a place called the grind as I recall

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That was interesting. I wonder what ever happened to those shoes I wore that night. But anyway, it was an interesting interesting place

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It was a youth place and it was anyway There are

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Roman Catholic and Protestant Inclusivists and I would say

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The majority large majority of the Roman Catholic leadership falls into one of these two categories

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Inclusivism is the idea that Included in the salvific work of Christ will be all people who make a positive faith

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Movement toward God and of course people want to know well, what does movement toward God mean?

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What would constitute that? Well there's obviously a range of inclusivism too, but basically if you have any

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Positive actions in your life You can be an atheist you can be members of other religions if you

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Positively respond to what might be called general revelation Even if you don't knowingly exercise faith and repentance toward The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob who reveals himself in Jesus Christ Then that is considered to be faith toward God and Faith toward Jesus and so you are included by that activity in salvation and It means that there is an inclusion of many people who've never even heard of Jesus simply because they have made a positive

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Move toward God in some sense This gets rid of all sorts of problems, obviously but the same time allows you to assert the necessity and importance of the salvific work of Christ and the cross and and things like that these things are are necessary, but what isn't necessary is basically a faith and repentance the the faith simply becomes any type of positive movement toward God and Repentance becomes really completely redefined

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So if a person so even if an atheist Does some kind of good works

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Again, we would say biblically. What is a good work? And when you have a meaning there is no meaningful doctrine of God's transcendence

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God's holiness sin Inclusivism has to undo all of those things and People are very happy to allow it to do that.

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Obviously. Those are doctrines that bother people greatly but any any good work even as an atheist is considered to be a

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Positive faith response to God's general revelation. That means you believed in Jesus and that means you will receive eternal life so I think

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The Cardinals the bishops the priests the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church the vast majority of them

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More than two -thirds Maybe more than that, but let's say I would say two -thirds fall into one of those two camps and I would say the inclusivistic camp is larger

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So there I think are a lot of inclusivists who read the doctrines and teachings of Even you know

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Vatican 2 and earlier elements of Roman Catholic teaching

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With a lens on that allows them to see this teaching even though historically we know that's that's not what they meant

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That's that's not what was being taught in the past in any way but they feel the freedom to be able to do this mainly because they know that there's so many others like them and Rome simply doesn't take action against these folks.

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And so Why not? I have said, you know Ratzinger as the head of what was formerly called the

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Inquisition was a conservative Roman Catholic prelate

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And Francis couldn't be any more different from Ratzinger than he is

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Francis is very liberal and if we didn't have clear documented evidence from his own mouth of his embrace of Inclusivism I Know some people would say well, he's a universalist and and I know he's made comments about atheists before But when you listen to what he said and what we're gonna listen to right now you will see the

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Necessary element of that doing of good deeds It's still there so He may be a universalist, but what he's enunciating is

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Inclusivism and If you've seen the video The video is put out by the

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Catholic News Service It is a touching video. Of course, they've put Piano music in the background, you know to enhance the you know, the the the kindly elderly man you know

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And it's and it's a a heart -wrenching situation We don't know what the background is, you know, some people might add it's all a setup

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I don't know. I I sort of doubt that given the way the boy boy is acting but He is given the opportunity to ask

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The Pope a question he can't so he goes up and whispers it in his ear and they have this

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Sweet, you know situation of conversation and then the Pope explains he says he asked him

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Permission to tell everyone publicly What was said in fact now

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I remember where I actually saw this it was someone in channel Yesterday morning posted this link and said can anyone

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Verify that what the subtitles say is actually what's being said. That's why I looked at initially

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I just it just dawned on me as I looked at the at the chat channel and You don't have to read

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Or understand Italian or Spanish or anything else there's you can tell that what is being said and translated on the screen is clear it is accurate and So here you have a young boy.

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His father has died and His father has died as an atheist and he's asking the

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Pope is my daddy in heaven now look I've seen some really

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Disappointingly shallow Comments and social media about this video

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These kinds of questions are not easy questions for anyone to answer and Your hatred for the

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Pope may be such that you're glad he gets hit with something like that, but You you have a

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Real -life situation here with a young boy

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With a very serious question and Sadly, he's going to the wrong person to answer it, but we live in a fallen and broken world and these things are going to happen

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And what I want you to note is The focus in the

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Pope's comments on What the father did he's gonna say he had a father's heart well

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How did he show that father's heart he showed that father's heart by the fact that even though he was an atheist he had his four children baptized and That's where I think we have the very clear connection to inclusivism

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He wasn't just an atheist who lived his life in hatred of God Here is an atheist who because of his he was a good man.

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We have obvious Differences with the Pope biblically speaking about what makes a good man

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But he was a good man because he had his children baptized. Well an atheist would say he was just wildly inconsistent but the point is the

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Pope emphasizes this as The grounds of his answer

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His inclusivistic answer to this young child and So this is

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I think important to understand as to the nature of inclusivism and so Let's I guess

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I have to blow this up here. Oh You've got it. Okay. Here is what the

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Catholic News Service put out including a boy named Emanuele die die die die

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Come to me. Come to me Emanuele. Come to me and tell me with your ear, tell me with your ear.

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Come, come, come to me. Come, come.

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I asked I asked Emanuele for permission to say the question in public and he said yes

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Okay, I I just lost myself. I realized some people listen and therefore

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If I just let the video run, that's not going to help you out any The Pope said that he asked permission of the young boy to Publicly explain the question and his answer and he says so I will tell you

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He asked a little while ago, my father passed away. He was a non -believer, but he had all four of his children baptized.

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He was a good man, his dad in heaven.

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His father wasn't a believer, but he had his children baptized. He had a good heart.

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And he wonders if his father because he wasn't a believer is in heaven.

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The one who says who goes to heaven is God, but what is God's heart like with a dad like that?

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What, what do you think? A father's heart.

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God has a dad's heart. And with a dad who was not a believer, but who baptized his children

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And gave them that bravura, do you think God would be able to leave him far from himself?

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Do you think? Speak up, come on. Does God abandon his children?

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Does God abandon his children when they are good? There, that is the answer.

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God surely was proud of your father because it is easier as a believer To baptize your children than to baptize them when you are not a believer.

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Surely this pleased God very much. Talk to your dad, pray to your dad.

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So There is the video that has Sort of gone viral and Again, I would very much

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Counsel, care in How you address a subject like this.

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I, I fear at times that there is such a Tremendous animosity on the part of some toward the

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Roman system and the Pope that We lose our

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Grace When addressing a subject like this. I've seen, I've seen this on on Twitter.

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I'm not going to name any names, but You, you have to recognize

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The difficulty of the question and the difficulty of the situation, but what it does is it

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Gives us a real insight. Now, I To head off the blog posts from the

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Roman Catholic apologists and the liberals What the Pope says in a context like this is

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Technically not infallible The Pope does not define dogma by answering a child's question

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The whole concept of papal infallibility is in my opinion one of the most useless doctrines ever defined by Rome Because the reality is

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No matter how clearly the Pope may teach something It's later generations that get to determine whether he was heretical or not

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And once you've defined that he can't be heretical by nature, then if the Pope was wrong He wasn't speaking as a

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Pope. If his Pope was right, he was speaking as a Pope it's it's an it's a belief that cannot be refuted because it doesn't mean anything and When Roman Catholics say

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I'm just so thankful to have the the living voice the Pope to tell us what to believe you don't

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You don't because if you believe what the Pope says now about this you're believing Something that a

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Pope a hundred years ago would have said was completely wrong and I would say every Pope up until at least 60 years ago would have said was wrong

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So you may pretend that That man is some living voice of interpretation.

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He is tradition But the reality is it doesn't work and that's the whole essence of the problem

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With abandoning Sola Scriptura is what you put in its place does not provide you with what you think it provides you

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So that's the first thing. I'm not saying ah see here here. The Pope is defining a new

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Doctrine or something like that, but it is plain as day if you're an honest

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Roman Catholic it is plain as day That Francis is an inclusivist

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He doesn't believe what Trent taught he doesn't believe what the the bishops of Rome taught all the way up through at least in the last century and Toto without question without dispute he has a different perspective and You can excuse that if you want and say well, but it's not a fit you can anything you want

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But the reality is that's where he stands and his words made that very clear you heard him saying good man

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Good heart and how is this demonstrated? He had his children baptized that could have been a cultural thing but the reality is this man has an anthropology

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That is not derived from Scripture. It is derived from his very very

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Humanistic leftist political perspectives and He is allowed that to determine his reading of The theology he is supposed to be

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The protector of and the definer of and that's another one of the problems in having

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The alleged papacy being your final authority in all things which in Roman Catholicism That's what it boils down to no matter

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I I've met I talked to Roman Catholic just within the past eight or nine months

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Just refused to recognize the the final authority of the Pope while trying to still say the church is infallible

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Without being able to define how he would ever know The whole point is that Bishop of Rome gets to define the church's teaching

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There are a lot of Roman Catholics say they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too They realize they can't go to Sola Scriptura.

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They can't go to that unchanging standard And they don't have an unchanging standard in the papacy anymore.

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They have an incoherent system But they're trying they're doing their best to hold on with what they don't really have anymore anyway

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But you you caught very plainly and very clearly in his words

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What has been said by by earlier Popes as well, but especially by him

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This man was God's child Well, if you mean that in the sense that all of us are

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God's children as in he created us That's one thing. That's not how he's using it

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The biblical teaching is you become a child of God by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ That's not what the

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Pope believes Everybody is Automatically he did something that plainly showed a good heart

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Which you can have in Roman in in his understanding of Roman Catholicism. Obviously not an

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Augustinian. He's a Jesuit You can have a good heart in of yourself Doesn't require that radical work of the

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Holy Spirit of God a that type of stuff you can have that good heart and And Because he did that and had that good heart then

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God will not want him to be far from him that is separated from him He will not only take him to heaven, but you heard him say you can pray to your dad

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You can pray to your dad Which I found Really odd because from a from an

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Orthodox Roman Catholic perspective. It's the Saints that hear prayers So, I'm not sure if the

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Pope just sainted this guy for having baptized his children but any

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Bishop of Rome up until the last century would have recoiled in horror at the expression of This doctrine and this theology, but like I said go back in history

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You've got Pope Honorius Writing letters Explaining theology to people as the

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Bishop of Rome tree teaches a heresy known as monothelitism

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For 400 years when you became Pope you had to anathematize him by name to become

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Pope Yet despite that the church defines infallibility the

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Pope today even though Honorius they considered to be one of the actual chain of Popes But you see he only did that in letters he didn't do it officially

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How are you supposed to know what the Pope actually believes? I'd say what we just watched Really it communicates to us what

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Pope Francis believes More so I would say than an encyclical that he has to run through all the internal stuff of the

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Vatican That's what he believes. There's no question about it. All the pretense is gone

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And what Honorius believed was communicated in those letters

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What that means is you can never know in this life What you're supposed to actually believe if you trust in the concept of an infallible

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Pope if he's your final Final answer you'll never know not in this life if you had believed what

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Honorius said Based upon a letter he wrote to you you would have been in error if you believe what

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Francis says Same thing even from an Orthodox Roman Catholic perspective.

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I mean the whole idea of the infusion of grace the whole idea is it's just There's it's just not there in this in this whole story of this this man's experience now

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I'll make a few more comments, but I want to go ahead and and and open the phones Because that's the primary thing we're going to be

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Doing today. Is that this particular? Well, I've already spent half the program on it, but this particular video and Then we haven't we didn't do phones last time.

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We did a nearly two -hour program on a tough subject. So We'll open the phones at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven

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Seven five three three three four one is the phone number if you want to give us a call

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But How do you Respond to a young child like this.

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Well, obviously I Don't think that having him

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Parading in a public situation like this is

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Is the best way of handling something like this, of course You know, you're talking about the

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Pope here So, you know, you're getting a tremendous opportunity from their perspective to get blessing from God But The best way to deal with these issues is not to lie to children when you have the issue come up of a child who dies as a

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As an infant when you are asked to do a funeral in that type of situation

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Similar type of very complex situation and With the parents in in a infant death situation the vast majority of them simply want

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You as a minister to exercise an authority you do not have To Basically pass their loved one into heaven as if you you have that capacity you have that that ability to do that which you don't but that's what they want and there's tremendous pressure put upon you because you know exactly what they want and When someone is grieving is that really the time to be theologically accurate?

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Yeah, it is That was one of that was one of the issues I struggled with greatly when

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I worked as a hospital chaplain many years ago now The The pressure that was placed upon you

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To simply tell people what they wanted to hear not what the truth was but what they wanted to hear

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Was overwhelming and I think being a hospital chaplain is one of the hardest things anyone could ever do and I I Would have a hard time condemning someone who gives in to that pressure because I saw it

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I experienced it I Remember one dark night in the cancer ward

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With a family right at the point of death of the loved one and this young lady

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It was just so clear Exactly what she wanted to hear from me but exactly what she wanted to hear from me is not what she was gonna need a

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Year later or two years later or five years later. In fact exactly what she wanted to hear at that particular point in time may have been

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Absolutely detrimental to her a year from then two years from then five years from them

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Now, of course when you're a hospital chaplain, you're probably never gonna see him again So you can sort of go

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But if you take a more eternal view of things now

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So many of these instances you're talking about people who aren't in the church. They're not in a meaningful grounded church to begin with and Your hope of course is that someday they will be and so you you have to keep that in mind in the answers that you provide in this situation

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The only answer is the gospel To a young person you point them to Christ and You answer by saying

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God is holy God is just and God is a forgiving

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God Nehemiah 9 God is a forgiving God, but he is a forgiving

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God Consistent with his own nature Consistent with what he's revealed about himself and that's why the cross exists.

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You see Rome's Emptying of the cross of its inherent biblical meaning

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By making it a repetitious thing That never perfects anyone robs its people of a real answer to the toughest questions

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When you can present the cross for what it was now for a little child These may be things that you you you express in the simplest way you can and say we'll talk more about it as You grow older and can understand more things

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It's not bad to tell young children That there are certain things in life that they should not be dealing with at this point in time

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Even though they've experienced tragedies in their life wait grow learn mature, that's what's so grossly

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Destructive About the attitude that we have right now in our society

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That says that four and five -year -olds can determine their own gender to the point where we will mutilate their bodies based upon their own choices

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It's just absurd That the children are now running the society when you make when you do things like that anyway

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When The time is right then you focus upon what

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God has done in Christ Jesus and what he calls each one of us to do and That we should not allow anyone who has gone before us to keep us

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From doing what is right before God But what you don't do is basically remove the gospel

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From your answer, which is what Francis did now Francis doesn't have a gospel. He doesn't have a finished work of Christ He may have a cross on the ring on his finger

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But the meaning of that cross has been thoroughly redefined by Roman Catholic theology and tradition so leaving that to the side in The real world when you're when you're talking with someone who's experienced something like this

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You point them to the fact that the cross demonstrates both God's justice and his goodness

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That that empty tomb is sufficient To explain why there will be some

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Who will experience by God's grace? his Presence and eternal life and others will not

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God's big enough God is big enough to answer those those big questions

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But like I said, I would really I would highly highly Encourage folks who have taken this video and Just used it as a simplistic

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Permission to blast the Pope to rethink in light of the context your actions and instead to More carefully hear what was said and to identify

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What inclusivism is so you can hear it because it's not just Roman Catholics to believe it It's not only very popular amongst liberal

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Protestants, but sadly I would say it has A life of its own even amongst conservative

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Protestants I think you will encounter people in your own churches who have adopted this attitude out of and having a lack of comfort in the goodness of God and how to hold the goodness of God the grace of God and The justice and mercy of God and the wrath of God against sin

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How to hold all that together. Well, it's it's all held together in the God -man It's all held together in the cross

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So you've got to have a proper understanding of that to make all that work, so just some thoughts on the issue and Yep, we're ready to go here and I'm assuming we need to go for as far those who are the farthest away.

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Yes Yeah, okay. So let's talk to Gregory. Hi Gregory Good day,

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Dr. Wright. How are you? I'm rejoicing in the name of Jesus Christ. What about you?

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That's always a good thing to do Amen, God bless you brother. God bless the nation. God bless

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Rich person everybody associated with your ministry and the families as well. Thank you No, first of all, yes, first of all,

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I would like to say I'd like to ask a question, but two issues, but quickly as possible

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The first one is Jesus being sanctified in his blood, like I've heard you taught more than one.

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I would like to know what does that really mean? When did it happen?

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Did it happen on the cross, or did it happen after his resurrection, at his ascension? And what are the implications of Jesus Christ being sanctified by his blood?

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Because that is something that has been on my mind as I've heard you taught on it. Well, two things

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It comes up in primarily in two places in Jesus's high priestly prayer in John chapter 17 where he specifically says that That he sanctifies himself.

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He sets himself apart that very term Sanctification set apart into a specific purpose and I think there its primary emphasis is upon the fact that Jesus knows what is coming

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He knows what he's going to accomplish the reason for example that he sweats

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As it were drops of blood in the in the garden. There's a textual variant there, but assuming that it's there

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That he struggles so in prayer is not fear of death There are many men who have very bravely faced their own deaths there's got to be something more and the more is the sinless second person of The Godhead having become incarnate

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Becoming sin for us being treated as a sinner by the Father in our place

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Our sins imputed to him his righteousness imputed to us. So it is that transaction that he has sanctified himself to it's necessary for him to go to Jerusalem and endure these things and That's the same

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Reference I think in Hebrews 10 29 where it's making reference to that that blood by which he

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Jesus is set apart that one sacrifice which earlier in chapter 10 we are told

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Perfects those for whom it is made by that one Testament We have been sanctified.

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We have been made holy. We have been set apart. This is the whole argument of Coming to its climax there in Hebrews chapter 10, and so when did that happen?

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Well, it would I suppose if you wanted to absolutely nail down a specific point

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It would be between the garden and and Jesus is saying

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To tell us die it is finished It would be in the voluntary purposeful self -giving of the

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Son Which I guess you could say is at the very point of death, but I would say

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Really is seen in that submission to the Father in the garden and then the entire, you know

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Betrayal and arrest and beating and trial and and then crucifixion

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Would would be the entirety of that redemptive act that Jesus Accomplishes and so it's related as I understand it to The fact that the the

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Son keeps saying it is necessary. It is necessary he understands what the price of redemption is going to be and That also removes one of the objections that many people have in saying

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I can't see why you Put so much emphasis upon this if Jesus knew what was going to happen if God's God knows the future

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There was no problem here and and that ignores the reality of the incarnation itself

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Even having knowledge of future events doesn't change the fact that the

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Son voluntarily endures this substitutionary act

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Knowing what it is going to entail. You don't have to have the

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Our limitation of knowledge of future events for that to be a real self -giving and and a real trial that results in Jesus's prayer in the garden and And all the associated things with it.

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So Gregory Hello.

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Yes Yes, okay

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Yes And the implication of that is that he will be able to serve as our high priest.

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Yes Okay, but okay. Lastly. Lastly, I would like to ask lastly You have said you have said in the past that where the

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Trinity is concerned because of the nature of The of the of the of the three persons of the

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Trinity because the nature is infinite Therefore they're shared in the same nature totally and completely and exhaustively

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Did they share did they all share the same nature? I don't use the term being

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Specifically, but yes The being of God is unlimited by time and space and is shared fully by each of the three persons father son and spirit.

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Yes Right, and I fully agree with that. I fully believe that but but I would like to know as well because this thought

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In my mind the personhood the three personhoods of the Trinity that They are not shareable.

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I think so. Does that mean while the nature is infinite the personhood are in our finite?

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That's an interesting question, I don't know how you would define personhood without reference to nature the the persons are

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Identifiable and distinct from one another and if you were to say that the persons were

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Infinite there would be no way of differentiating them from one another So I'm not sure that the the terminology is what's appropriate there because when we talk about personhood, we're talking about those things which identify and distinguish and I Guess in the sense that God's nature can be identified and distinguished from its creation from what he has created

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That's that's one aspect to it but When you say shareable, yeah

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Because once you if you shared Personhood, then it's no longer Definitional of one person.

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So there's there's a definitional issue here in the way we're using words that is introducing some some confusion

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I think because if if my personhood was shareable,

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I wouldn't be the person that I am so by definition I Would say no, but not because of an intrinsic limitation on per on the person

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But upon how we're describing that person and how we're identifying that person

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Difficult to talk about because for us Our personhood is limited not only in time and space but limited as to a duration of time very short period of time and Our being is limited as well.

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So we're Reasoning from down below towards something far greater than ourselves and very frequently that can cause a problem

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And Thank you very much. Thanks for calling Gregory. God bless you 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3, you know, it's quarter till but We'll see what we got here

45:30

Did it today? Let's talk to Adam. Hi Adam Yes, sir

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Yeah, so I've been following the past couple episodes that you've had for the dividing line and your interaction and the comments with the

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MLK 50 situation and I just kind of ask you man How can you not?

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come to Call these guys out on you know questioning their salvation based on their comments, you know the type of uncharitable things are saying

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Well, how do you because it's not my place I'm I'm not I'm not the judge we're all gonna stand before God and I'm I'm concerned because it does seem that for some

46:16

I'm assuming let's begin here. I'm assuming that we're talking about individuals who make a specific claim

46:24

To be followers of Jesus Christ and so since I don't know them in the vast majority of situations

46:31

I simply have to go with that claim many of them are pastors of churches that have

46:37

Orthodox statements of faith So I'm going to have to start with the assumption that if they have a statement of faith

46:44

That is an Orthodox statement of faith that they actually believe that now I could be wrong. They may be

46:50

Reinterpreting in it. I don't know But I have to start someplace that's the nature of Social interaction these days and I choose to try to think the best

47:04

Until I am disabused of that that may be a weakness on my part But I don't you know,

47:11

I'm the older I get the less the older I get the more the eternal state is real to me because it's right around the corner and I'm going to be encountering these individuals

47:27

At least I think I'm going to be encountering these individuals in the eternal state and I don't want to have to be going through a whole bunch of stuff

47:36

Saying I'm sorry so I If they say they're Christians, then

47:42

I'm gonna leave the rest to God if they are teaching something that is going to Fundamentally impact in a negative fashion

47:53

The church and the fellowship of the church and the proclamation of the gospel

47:58

I will address that But you see that the the real tendency on all of our parts and and and me as a younger person, too

48:07

But the tendency on the part of all of us is to assume if you disagree with me on This and I think this is just so clear and so vital

48:19

If you disagree with me on this, then you just must not be a Christian well if the

48:25

New Testament says that if the New Testament makes that application if if when

48:30

Paul talks about false brothers Pseudo Delphoi and Galatians 2 and identifies the gospel as a as a

48:38

Dividing line that truly must be observed. Okay, then that's what we need to do

48:45

But as you know in many of these situations what you're really dealing with is an application issue where you know,

48:54

I think that what we're dealing with in Critical race theory and things like that as it comes into the church is a gospel issue, but that doesn't mean that I'm assuming that everyone

49:07

I'm talking to or even that I disagree with is Being consistent in the application of these things so they may on one hand fully believe

49:18

That they are made right before God's solely on the merits of Jesus Christ solely by his grace solely by faith

49:25

They they bring an empty hand of faith to God And then on the other hand, they may not be making a consistent application of that In light of their personal experiences their heroes have said

49:41

X Y or Z Whatever it might be. I have to recognize that there's going to be inconsistencies there

49:49

Just as there are inconsistencies other places. I point out the inconsistencies, which they may not like and which may result in their attacking me and Attacking my my character and saying all sorts of false things about me

50:03

Well, you know what that happens in the New Testament. It's happened down through church history

50:09

I can't think of anyone who's ever stood up and tried to do anything in service for the church that that hasn't happened to them and As Christians you give it to the

50:18

Lord and you stay focused upon him I've told the story before but I'll tell again real quickly.

50:24

I was in Bible College I was on staff at a really super big large church There was a assistant pastor in the staff who was sort of really the pastor of the church

50:35

I mean if you really really need to talk to somebody This is the guy that you'd go talk to the the guy who did the preaching you really wouldn't get to see him much but I saw him horribly mistreated by another staff member in front of half the staff and When he went into his office, my little office was right across the hallway from so I followed him in and I said

50:59

How how do you put up with that? How how do you survive that? And I'll never forget what he said to me

51:06

He's passed on since this time and I I got to have lunch with him

51:11

I don't know about a year before he died and I reminded him of this and he didn't remember it, of course

51:17

But I reminded of his of course in his own droll way He said no, those are really good words of wisdom.

51:24

Wish I had remembered him, but he looked at me and he said he said He said Jim if you ever get your eyes off the shepherd and on to the sheep you will burn out of the ministry very quickly and I've tried to remember that because I think it's quite true.

51:43

We focus upon Christ. We focus upon his calling in our lives and we warn the church because we if we see

51:51

Things coming that are detrimental and I feel that this movement is detrimental to the church.

51:57

That's why I've addressed it It's not something I want to address. It's not something I wake up in the morning go.

52:02

Oh good. I wonder what Slander has been posted about me on the internet today That's it's the farthest thing from my from my mind, but I am convinced that it is

52:13

A real danger and so I've tried to address it I don't want to create enemies, but I recognize that when you stand for the truth that's gonna happen at times

52:24

I want to be open to any brother or sister of any color or ethnic background that comes to me and says

52:32

I I Want to make sure that you and I? Do not have a division between us about these things.

52:39

We may disagree but here's you know I I recognize in you the

52:45

Spirit of God and you know That type of person I can have a conversation as you've probably seen.

52:51

That's not how I've been approached by a lot of folks But again, I have to leave that to I have to leave that to God so I Just try to avoid that temptation because it ends up Distracting it becomes all personalities becomes names and the real issues end up getting pushed off to the side in light of people lining up behind particularly popular speakers or whatever else it might be and And then you you don't really end up accomplishing anything.

53:22

So yeah, some nasty things are being said about me some very untrue things are being said about me, but You know, that's not the first time won't be the last time and I can leave that in in God's hands.

53:38

All right So Are you you're you you are aware of what's going on in South Africa?

53:44

Didn't I remember you saying you have a debate or something like that coming up to go to South Africa? I'm I am aware if what you're talking about is the move on the part of the

53:54

ANC to take land from white farmers without Compensation I've known about that for quite some time and I know that it will result in Starvation It may result in civil war

54:13

It's extremely foolish And it is motivated by racial animus.

54:19

There's no question about it Well, it's well, let's let's let's just be perfectly honest it's it's socialism on steroids and Socialism when it gets hold of race is very very ugly and I've seen this down there every time

54:40

I've gone. We need to be praying for that that country and praying for those people But yeah,

54:47

I'm well aware of it but I also when I go to South Africa get to minister in churches that are

54:56

Absolutely and not by and not by quotas but by the spirit

55:02

I think that's a new a new line I need to come up with not by quotas, but by the spirit by the

55:07

Spirit of God are Thoroughly what we would call integrated in the sense that You look out that audience and there's just every race

55:17

That is represented by people who can get to that church are And of course,

55:22

I don't believe in multiple races, but every ethnic group is represented in that church and they live in harmony

55:29

That's one of the reasons like I said in the last program. I'm addressing. This is I don't want this To be exported from the

55:36

United States into places where they've had peace and then this ends up destroying that peace

55:44

That's one of the reasons that I'm addressing it. So really, honestly It's been so wonderful To go to South Africa.

55:54

I I Spoken a church in Tembizi and if you know where where that is if you saw

56:00

I've mentioned this on the program before But if you saw the the the film District 9

56:07

District 9 was shot in Soweto Tembizi is just one of the neighborhoods of Soweto and that's what it looks like that's that's what the whole for as far as the eye can see are these corrugated huts and that's where people live and I've taught in a in a church there and There was not a thing about my skin color or anything else that was even semi relevant

56:37

They wanted me to teach them about the deity of Christ and guess what? They wanted to know how to witness to Jehovah's Witnesses when they come through their neighborhoods, you know

56:46

And there so I that's what I did and it was wonderful and I can open up any passages scripture

56:54

I don't have to be running racial Filters through my mind all the rest that stuff.

56:59

It's wonderful. There are some great churches in South Africa Crystal Park and Antioch Bible and you can go down to Cape Town if they have any water left there you can go down to Durban and and We just don't have the problems there if you can imagine that That are being created here in the

57:17

United States. And and I think if we just didn't have as much money and stuff This probably wouldn't be happening

57:24

I'll be perfectly honest with you. Okay. Well, I guess

57:30

I just wanted to I don't know Urging not to if things get out of hand don't put yourself in I know

57:37

Lord is you know The Lord is sovereign and whatever happens is under his control. But yeah, hey, you mean about my going to South Africa?

57:46

Yes. Yeah. Well I've got I've got dear friends down there who first of all will certainly do their best to look out for me

57:55

There's no question about that But I'm not just going to South Africa on this trip. I'm going to Zambia, too so Yeah, well, you know, there's there's good folks there.

58:07

I'm gonna be teaching for for Votie Balcombe down in Zambia for a couple days and Just pray for my safety and my health.

58:16

That's the most important thing on this trip. I'm I'm not really concerned about the safety issue, but I am concerned about the health issue on this trip

58:25

So appreciate it. All right. Thanks. God bless. All right.

58:31

Let's go to Kyle in Dallas. Hi Kyle Hey, how are you?

58:38

Dr. White doing good? Hey quick question kind of different than I guess your other questions and strange description you probably saw but I I'm a

58:48

Basically a Sunday school teacher with a group of boys that have had for quite a long time So when when we teach them you can't really say anymore

58:56

Don't do something that's against the law because you know, the laws apparently is going to be changing quite a bit around us for different generations and so trying to teach them just the voices of the scriptures and different different kind of societal issues that come up one of them and Teaching them a case for you know, you have to understand, you know, why abortion would be wrong

59:18

And so I that's something I kind of listen to and of course I have preteen boys as well so I'm always interested in you know, how can

59:25

I walk them through thinking through these issues and Specifically to abortion I have heard people and I guess it's kind of common in the curriculum where you know

59:35

They'll take you to I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and it's it's kind of Psalms and then there's you know

59:40

Thou shalt not kill so we were going to go to the Ten Commandments with it, which I think are Fine but really the question that people will will say is well

59:49

But you have to convince me that you know that that is a baby, you know Whenever in in the womb that that actually is a person and so I just haven't heard it used much

01:00:00

But I kind of wanted to see if if I would be using this properly, but Exodus 22

01:00:07

I'm sorry Exodus 21 verses 22 the the when men struggle and if there's a if they were to strike a pregnant woman the the penalty for that is life for life, you know,

01:00:19

I fry tooth for tooth, but it is life for life and So in it's specifically talking about the baby in the womb and to me when

01:00:27

I read that it seems kind of a kind irrefutable that that the the

01:00:33

The what's equal to the baby in the womb is the life that would be paid for that of the grown man that caused that and it has a

01:00:43

You know, it has the same penalty that would be demanded of him as a murder if it was just another person so to me that is is drawing an equal sign in the value and and actually

01:00:53

I've kind of also thought that it goes a little bit further because It kind of feels like the the axe head falling off the handle

01:01:02

But in that case of the unintentional manslayer, you would have you could run to the city of refuge

01:01:09

But in this one, there's no city refuge for that and I kind of when I see the situation

01:01:14

I would think that would have made sense to me if it was oh, it's an accidental, you know, you're fighting

01:01:19

With and this was this was basically collateral damage then maybe that would have been what we're

01:01:27

The scripture would have gone but it didn't so to an extent it seems like it even kind of holds it higher than then murder because even the unintentional

01:01:36

Killing of of this the damage of the child would would make you the penalty of a murder

01:01:42

Would that be would it be going too far? It would probably take me a while to go through this but I have a little

01:01:53

Article Um, let me let me look at this here You know, this actually isn't all that long maybe

01:02:07

I can post it With the It's look strange.

01:02:16

It's rather old but oh, okay. It goes this way You know what? It'll do.

01:02:21

I think it'd be easiest thing would be to for me to Post this with the on the blog of this particular program underneath Where the video and the audio links are so probably within 20 minutes after programs over here you should be able to find a little article

01:02:48

I wrote that's specifically on exodus 21 and the term yeled and the related issues

01:02:56

That would answer your question, but it'd be in writing. So you'd actually have it in a better form I think than my just going back off top my head.

01:03:04

How's that sound? Okay, so I will keep this up and rich remind me to do that if I if I Forget but I'll put that up for there for you and it should help you out.

01:03:15

Great. Appreciate it. Okay. All right. Thanks All right one more let's talk to Jabrail in Florida Hello, dr.

01:03:25

Why are you doing good? I Have a question that originally came from an open to you and I have to do with an argument again

01:03:33

One that could atonement but more specifically again Substitutionary tone and I think there's something

01:03:38

I'm misunderstanding and I can't really find a full answer to this I want to know what you thought but the question would be if The atonement of Christ was

01:03:49

Perpetuatory nature it took away a wrath for all the elect But why is it that they are under the wrath of God before they are converted as it says in Ephesians chapter 2 and Romans chapter 1?

01:04:00

well Interesting that that is raised by an open theist, but those are different issues.

01:04:08

But yeah really, I think the more interesting application of that is the fact that there have been reformed people who have put forward a doctrine called eternal justification to Avoid just this issue and to basically say that the elect

01:04:30

Always have been justified that does Unfortunately run directly into those specific texts that say that we were children of wrath

01:04:40

Even as the rest that God's wrath abided upon us John chapter 3 until you believe so and so forth

01:04:46

And so the obvious reality in answering the question is that it is trying to pit the

01:04:55

Fact that God provides one redemptive act based upon His decree he joins an entire people to Christ in that one redemptive act and therefore from God's perspective

01:05:10

There is certainty of knowledge of who is united with Christ He knows who the elect are in the future

01:05:16

And I think this is probably why the open theist is using is to try to undercut that very idea which they don't believe but it's trying to pit

01:05:23

God's knowledge of future events versus the application of God's Intended redemption of his people in time.

01:05:33

So the idea is very clearly that as As the scriptures teach until a person believes and repents they abide under the wrath of God that is our experience in time

01:05:48

Because we are fallen sons of Adam we experience that grace of God in regeneration

01:05:56

Transferred out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light adopted as sons of God. We move from that Adamic relationship to the

01:06:07

Freedom of the sons of God That takes place in time and it's

01:06:13

God's purpose that it takes place in time so that you can have Sanctification the glorification of God the continuation of the church, etc, etc

01:06:22

God's working out an eternal plan in time. And so the objection is playing on Switching your point of Orientation from God's perspective.

01:06:34

He knows what he's going to do to man's Experience of it in time and it doesn't lay that out

01:06:40

But that's where the alleged contradiction is that there isn't a contradiction

01:06:45

It's just simply switching from the recognition that God has one perspective and then we experience what he's chosen to do for his purposes in time itself and so That's really the the only essence to the objection is based upon playing with The difference between an eternal perspective and a temporal perspective and the fact is you can do that with all sorts of things

01:07:16

You can do that with the incarnation you can do it Well anything that God has decreed to do in time you could try to create a contradiction in that way

01:07:22

Well, God knew he was gonna do it. So it doesn't really have any meaning. No God has created God creates all of time and everything that happens in time and that's what makes it meaningful but the experience of it in time is different than God's perfect knowledge of it in eternity, so the open theist is just trying to Get around the clear clear clear statements of Scripture in regards to God's The extent of God's knowledge being based upon the fact that he's the creator of all things including time all the events in time

01:07:52

Okay, what do you say that there is a difference in the nature of God's wrath before judgment and after judgment

01:08:00

Well, the yeah because the the nature of God's wrath has been fulfilled in in our behalf and our experience of that is

01:08:13

Such that we now if you're justified if you've had Your sins imputed to Christ and his righteousness imputed to you

01:08:22

Then clearly God's wrath finds no place in you. So if you're talking about There's a difference between wrath against sin that has not been propitiated and God's fatherly displeasure with his children

01:08:35

Whereby he corrects us and makes us more like Christ. Those are two completely different categories So yeah, there is a difference if you want to put it that way

01:08:44

But again the the issue there is how How are we experiencing this

01:08:51

God's wrath against all who are in Adam? Yes God's grace toward all who are in Christ.

01:08:56

Yes, but That's from God's perspective By his decree.

01:09:02

He chooses to bring those people into the experience of being in Christ during their lives

01:09:08

Well, he has to if you're gonna have if you're gonna When you think about it the only way to get around this conundrum from their perspective is for Christ to die in each generation

01:09:16

So you can't you don't have You know the the eternity versus time issue.

01:09:22

Well, that's that's silly. So It is his intention that we experience that transition into the

01:09:30

Christian life Regeneration adoption so and so forth in time It's certain from God's perspective, but we don't view things from God's perspective

01:09:39

So we have to allow both of those things to stand side -by -side in the scriptures Okay.

01:09:44

Thank you very much. Okay. Thanks for your call. Yep. Very good call. Thank you. God bless. Thank you all right, well

01:09:52

Got through those and good program today. We covered a lot of ground lots of different topics and I was good.

01:10:04

That's good. And we got done in Basically an hour and ten minutes. So that's not too bad.

01:10:10

So I will post that little This is a little tract that I wrote

01:10:16

One of the one of the first two or three sermons that I preached at Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church 19

01:10:24

Back in the 90s at some point was on Exodus 21 and the subject of abortion. So I will

01:10:30

Take that little tract. I'll grab the text out of it and I will throw it

01:10:36

Onto the blog article here that or I'll just make a It might be better to make a blog article separately and then

01:10:45

I'll just link to it Some along those lines it's not very long But it'll give you some some information there.

01:10:53

So thanks for watching the dividing line. We will be back Lord willing Let's see, what's today today's