When Your Opponent Gets Nasty #1

The Question of Christ’s Saving Work and Hebrews’ Warnings

Christ is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, yet you have said that we can approach God in the mass thousands of times and yet still die impure. Is it your position that Jesus' saving to the uttermost does not include actually perfecting those for whom he intercedes?

I will answer it this way, Mr. White. That's why I kept harping on the fact that the book of Hebrews, 51 of the time, talks about falling from the faith and actually mentions those who are Christians, seasoned Christians, who sin deliberately and Paul says that they have no more sacrifice for sins remaining.

So is it your position that Jesus' saving to the uttermost does not include actually perfecting those for whom he intercedes?

No, if they want to be perfected, he will perfect them. The problem is not with Jesus, it's with us.

So his work of sanctification and salvation in us does not include changing us sufficiently that we will then somehow make it?

Mr. White, if it was done so sufficiently, then there wouldn't be any warnings in Hebrews to not fall away from the faith.

That assumes, and I have resisted very strongly, sir, the temptation to turn this into a debate on eternal security. I'd be glad to debate you on that sometime when that's the subject. But that assumes the idea that what the Apostle Paul is doing is he's talking to true Christians and saying that they can have the Lord Jesus fail to perfect them in their behalf and it assumes that when you preach to an audience that you're going to say that everyone in that audience is in fact a true Christian and that you're not going to warn anybody against going back into the world.

That's a very big assumption. But if the propitiatory effect of the Mass, sir, is limited by the perfection of our dispositions, does it not logically follow if we accept the Roman Catholic teaching that the Mass is the same sacrifice as Calvary that the effect of Jesus' intercession before the Father is likewise limited?

Faith, Works, and the Gift of God

It just shows the flaw in your theology, Mr. White, because you believe that you don't have to have faith. That's what you said in your book. I didn't say that. That Christ gives you. Yes, you did. I'll read it for you.

You want me to read it again?

I described faith as the gift of God, sir, that it is given by God.

This is what you said in your book. It is our contention that the death, page 131 at the bottom. Thank you. It is our contention that the death of Christ is complete in and of itself and does not need man's faith.

Man's faith or works, sir. Please read the whole thing. Okay, so you got both of them in there. What is? You mentioned faith. So much for context. Context, okay. Does Jesus save completely every person for whom he intercedes, yes or no?

Jesus wants to save completely every person for whom he intercedes. Thank you. But we have a problem, Mr. White. That's called sin. That's why the book of Hebrews talks about falling away. I would love to preach on that one.

Why don't you? Why don't you tell us about the book of Hebrews?

Falling Away, Perseverance, and the Warning of 2 Timothy 2

In the case of a person, excuse me, in the case of a person who enters into the state of grace, attends mass for many years, does good works, etc., but then falls away, commits a mortal sin, is not reconciled and does not desire such reconciliation.

This is interesting. This is the actual question I wrote and you just answered it. Would it be true that Jesus tried to save such a person, having interceded for them, and yet was unable to bring about their final and full salvation?

I think that's what you just said.

I don't know what you're misconstruing. What I said, Mr. White, all I said was Christ is there for us. He wants to completely save us to the uttermost, but the point is that we sin. And that's why he has to intercede to the Father for us, because we sin.

Can I finish my answer, please? You just said, sir, that... Well, I guess I can't finish my answer because you keep interrupting me. You just said, sir... Can I finish my answer or not? Okay, I'll finish my answer.

Thank you. That's why in the first chapters of Hebrews talk about Christ as our brother, Christ who is our priest. This is why the whole reason that he's introducing Christ to us is because he has the power to save us.

But then he goes on and says to them, Look, the Jews were in the same situation as you are today, and they fell. Don't let that happen to you. And you even have a better promise now because of the new covenant Christ has given you.

And so you have more power to maintain your faith. But at the same time, you have more responsibility, too. So don't fall away.

That's what you need to answer. Sir, you just made the statement that Jesus wants to save the uttermost. The passage in scripture says he is able...

Yeah, does it say that he did save the uttermost? It says he is able to save to the uttermost, not that he did.

So if he is able to save to the uttermost, are you saying that his ability is limited by what we do?

Oh, let me read first 2 Timothy chapter 2, verse 11. I'm going to give you a simple answer from scripture. Better than me. If we died with him, we will also live with him. If we endure, we will also reign with him.

If we disown him, he will disown us. That's very simple, I think.