Elders and Deacons, Part II | The Whole Counsel

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00:11

This is the whole council. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Chuck Baggett. I'm here today with Teddy James and Teddy, it's sinus season in Mississippi.

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It's also baseball season. That's a good thing It is a fantastic thing, which is why I had to wear my

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Braves shirt. John wore his goofy New York Yankees cap a few weeks ago.

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I was off camera. I couldn't say anything So I thought I have an opportunity here I'm gonna be on the podcast with Chuck and I'm kind of I'm kind of sad

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You didn't wear your Cardinals. I don't own any Cardinals gear. Okay, there you go listeners So, uh, but yeah, so I had to do something represent my

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Braves there you go well last week we began talking about elders and deacons and the importance really last week the importance of considering this and the importance of a life we looked at qualifications for elders not individually, but the necessity of those

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Qualifications of character over against giftedness giftedness being important but we tend to It's easy for us to look to that first and give undue weight to that and forget about The character of the life a few quotes very briefly

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John Boyes said he doth preach most who doth live best Joel Beakey, yeah, throw him in there.

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Our hearts must be transcripts of our sermons Robert Murray McShane a minister's life is the life of his ministry.

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That's so good. That's good That's so good. My best my favorite is Athanasius the life should command and the tongue persuade

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Mm -hmm, and it does reflect the reality a biblical reality that it is that the life carries the weight of the words yes, yes, both of those must be there and I've heard

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John say a number of times that You can say the best things in the pulpit in a moment of silliness out of the pulpit unwind everything you just said

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Yeah, absolutely. So that's why we talked to you know last week We even briefly mentioned the what's at risk, right if we choose a man based on his

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Giftings or based on his personality or based on some other criteria that we decide What's at risk in following that rather than following the standards that God has given us?

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So let us encourage you if you if you missed that episode if you didn't listen to it go back You can listen to this one first.

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That's not necessary, you know to understand what we're talking about today But we do recommend go back and listen to that episode because there is some good stuff in it.

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So Now before we get into the qualifications Chuck, we do want to mention we're not gonna hit every qualification

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We're not even gonna really dive to the depth of a single qualification. So we're just kind of hitting those mountain peaks, right?

02:52

Right, right. There's too many we spent what four weeks I think three four weeks on this

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So yeah, there's no way we could do that in a few minutes We have one thing that I meant to do last week and I really want to say thanks to a commenter on YouTube He commented and just said hey, where can

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I get the series that Chuck preached and I should have put that link in the description I will not fail this week the link to the series that you've been preaching on the church will be

03:20

Underneath this episode whether you're listening or you're watching on YouTube. So and it also be on show notes Well, and if you're going to listen for this

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I should also add that one of those is missing the audio just did not work So as we think about this tonight or tonight, haha,

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I'm thinking Wednesday night today You know, there are areas of scripture where we have to kind of work by principle.

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There's not a clear command This is how it is, but there are principles and we can look at scripture and say, you know

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This says this year and this says this year and clearly the principle is this there are other places though where there are very clear commands, this is how it is and There is as we look at what a minister should be it's not just principle there there's edict there's command

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Here's what he must be the scriptures say pretty plainly several times. He must be this

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Yeah, and I think that that shows too It shows us exactly how serious God is about Who these men should be it not should who these men must be

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To to lead and to serve the bride of Christ Yes, so a couple of verses one from Titus Chapter 1 verses 6 and 7 namely if any man is above reproach

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The husband of one wife having children who believe not accused of dissipation or rebellion for the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward and 1st

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Timothy 3 2 an overseer then must be above reproach Both of those places Emphasize this necessity.

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He must be these things Yeah, and one thing that just to go back to the must be and these these edicts

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Is I mean you think about why God puts things in scriptures the way that he does and it's often particularly in regards to this is because we would be so tempted to adjust those standards and adjust the

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Qualifications if we were given liberty to do so Right and you can think of a number of scenarios where that might happen

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One is if you are looking for a pastor and it's taken a long time And so you kind of settle like this guy's pretty good.

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Okay? He's almost there and so you you kind of settle for a little bit less and think it's close enough

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So that's one scenario where we might be tempted to make an adjustment, you know, and I think another one is who is We we hear a guy preach so he comes, you know pulpit supply or you know, the pulpit search committee

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That's what we used to have when I was in a lot of my churches Um, you know, but the pulpit supply committee they go they hear a guy and they think wow

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This guy can really preach he comes to the church and he preaches a Sunday and we think wow, he preaches really well

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This is the kind of preaching we want in the church And we really like the preaching or maybe we know him.

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We really like his character But we that's not the the standard.

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The standard is the qualifications that God has given us Right, and so often you don't have the time to observe that or the opportunity to observe that right?

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You've you've seen him once and time to make a decision, right? Yeah, so I mean I think that what we're talking about here is to say we should really take our time any church that is considering I think that Elder is probably a little different case than deacons most time deacons are you know from within the body?

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but take your time and Examine the life to make sure that these qualifications are met and again last week we discussed why that's so important Yeah So as we think then about the qualifications and not being able to get to all of them one kind of in my mind is overarching above them all and that is that he must be above reproach and The other qualifications the ones that follow kind of fill out.

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What does that look like? So in these areas, he must be above reproach Yeah, so it's kind of like a few weeks ago you and John were talking on the podcast, you know

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When you you tell your kids, okay Be good at grandpa grandma and grandpa's house and they're like, yeah easy

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We can we can do that and then you start saying here's what be good me, right? So above reproach

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It is very general. It is a principle, but then we do get these very helpful specifics, right?

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So above reproach sometimes translated blameless Still you could look at those those words and think okay, but what does that mean?

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How do you apply that in this situation to say this person is above reproach? It'd be easy to look at that blameless

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That's you know, it's a high standard But does it mean sinless right? It doesn't mean perfection, right?

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If it means that then who is qualified no one so it can't be that what does it mean?

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And I do think John Calvin is helpful here a quote from I think it's his commentary from first Timothy He does not mean someone who is free from every fault for no such man could ever be found

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But one marred by no disgrace that could diminish his authority he should be a man of unblemished reputation and so Faultless blameless

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Blameless yes, but faultless without sin. No But here's a person whose authority has not been diminished by his faults

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You don't look at him and think I'm unwilling to follow this man and you're concerned that he follow Christ You look at him

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Imperfections but repenting and he's setting the pace Follow me as I follow

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Christ. Yeah, and I think that that too. So you you mentioned it Repentant, so it's not saying that he never messes up But when he does there's a humility there that drives him to repentance and to turn back to Christ.

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So even in his failures He is still an example to the flock Right, and so this

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I think it comes back to what we're just saying that here's a life that does not unravel words Mm -hmm

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Richard Baxter 17th century pastor said take heed to yourselves

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He's writing to pastors take heed to yourselves lest your example contradict your doctrine and lest you lay such

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Stumbling blocks before the blind as may be the occasion of their ruin Lest you unsay with your lives what you say with your tongues and be the greatest hinderers of the success of your own labors one proud surly lordly word one needless contention one

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Covetous action may cut the throat of many a sermon and blast the fruit of all that you have been doing so again, here's the

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Need to be an example to the flock and set the pace right and we see that right

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So second Thessalonians 3 9 not because we do not have the right to do this But in order to offer ourselves as a model for you so that you would follow our example.

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So the the elder is that Example that the flock can look to again not a symbol of perfection

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But a an example and you know as Paul would say follow me as I follow Christ. That's what this elder does

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As you look at the list of qualifications here other than he must be able to teach which is is it?

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The one kind of gifting that's mentioned within those qualifications the character that you're looking for is character that you really expect from any believer

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You know, you don't You don't look at any Christian and say it's okay for you not to be a one -woman man any man, you know, right?

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You don't look at any Christian and say it's okay. If you're not gentle. Well, of course, it's not okay.

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So we're not saying that So so these are characters that you expect of any

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Christian But the the pastor is to be an example to the flock of these characters.

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So there's got to be some maturity there Oftentimes when we're talking with new converts

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We encourage them to examine their lives in light of the word and look for fruit

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Spiritual fruit and we caution them that as they do that, we're not expecting them to Demonstrate mature fruit certainly not in every area, you know, they're newborn babes in Christ So we're not looking for full -blown mature fruit, but Do you see an example of life?

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Do you see the bud? When we come though to the these men, we're not looking for buds, you know, not even a tree full of buds

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We're looking for mature fruit. We're looking for Evidence that that there's been some growth there not that there's not room for more growth

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But growth has occurred Yeah Well, I mean and even Paul mentions not for an elder not to be a man that is a recent

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Convert those pride puffs him up and and that's part of the reason why there should be mature fruit

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This is a man who's going to teach who's going to lead and so one other thing that all of these things kind of presuppose is that these this maturity this growth this

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Being an example is a present reality. It's not something that he can look back and say. Oh, well ten years ago

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I was doing really well in this area. Look to that example. It's today, right? And it also does not mean that ten years ago.

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I wasn't this and so I'm disqualified today. Yeah, so You know if I were an unbeliever ten years ago

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And I were no I was known as being pugnacious as the new American Standard says I was a striker.

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I was I Verbally, maybe even physically, you know, I was just a role or a temper a brawler.

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Yes But that's not the case today Well, that's that's the question.

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What am I today? Yeah. Yeah, and and you know, so and again going back to what we even talked about just a few minutes ago

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Is this man a repenter today? You know, so it all of these things and all the things that we're going to continue talking about with the qualifications

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These must be realities Today that are observable And I know there's something that we're gonna get into later on but each of these things they are objective and observable from just generally knowing that the man

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Right. So we're presupposing that you do know something about the man that you've had some opportunity to observe his life

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Or you know people who have observed his life and you trust their recommendation, right? Right and and not only him but also his his wife and his children

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Right, not not that you're examining them. And you know, let's put them under the magnifying glass But seeing how he manages his household because that is a qualification

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Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So This removes any

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I Won't say it removes all subjective Responses to an individual but what we have to realize is that we have to take all of that subjectiveness.

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So personality quirks or even like Friction between people we're all sinful people.

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We're gonna have friction with one another but all of that subjectiveness has to be subservient to the

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Objective realities and the objective qualifications that God himself has laid out for an elder Well as we look in as we continue looking here and Think about what

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Timothy what Paul says to Timothy and to Titus There's this list of areas in which a pastor must be blameless.

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They're not necessarily exhaustive the list There may be other areas in which a person must be above reproach.

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But in these areas He must be above reproach. Particularly, right, right And again, we don't have time to look at all of them, but there are two

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Qualifications that both kind of consider the man's domestic life and They are both areas that Paul gives a bit of space to he mentions them to both

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Timothy and Titus And so I think those would be two good ones to take up today Yeah, so the first one being he is the husband of one wife right, which

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Is also perhaps one of the more controversial ones. Mm -hmm Because well, okay first off before we get into the controversy.

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There's what four Historical understandings or interpretations of that phrase. So real quick.

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What are they? Yeah, I knew you would ask me that. Okay, so That he has to be married he must be married he cannot be a widower.

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Mm -hmm He cannot be divorced He is a one -woman man. I think those are the four.

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Yeah, I didn't Know if there's more I'm sure if there's more you can let us know in the comments, right?

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Yeah, and there may well be more but those are four that are kind of historically viewed and with supporting evidence for each, you know, there are people who have arguments for each and We don't have time to argue out each of them.

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No, but we just want to say there there are four one thing that we do want to Be very certain of and we'll well,

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I'll tell you what before we get into that. Let's get into the children because he also mentions the children because I think that What I want to say is that we cannot be more severe than God and I think we can get into that After we've kind of gone over both of these things.

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So what is the the requirement when it comes to children? That they be obedient children.

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Mm -hmm And so I think that the the requirement has to do with how he how the man manages his children how he cares for them how he disciplines them and That it's obvious that that is ongoing that is he's doing that There's a big question mark there particularly in Titus because Titus in the

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New American Standard Titus Paul states to Titus they must be believing children.

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And so there are people who take that to mean exactly That they must be believing

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But if you understand it that way Then you have to ask the question. There's several people who take that to mean exactly Several questions you can ask one.

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Does it mean he must have children? What if what if he didn't have kids? What if he's he's a mature believer, but he's a newlywed.

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He doesn't have children He's not qualified to be a pastor because he doesn't have children yet or let's say he has children, but they're newborn

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Well, are they converted? Yeah, not as we understand it or let's say that he was converted later in life when his children were already adults and now he is a mature believer and and Clearly is called to ministry and they are unbelievers.

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Yeah, exactly Yeah So that's a question mark that some people have and some people again interpret it to mean well

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Obviously, he's unqualified because they are not believing so Paul's words to Titus he says specifically namely if any man is above reproach the husband of one wife having children who believe not accused of dissipation or rebellion and so Having children who believe or having children who are faithful is not set against having children who are

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Unbelievers or unfaithful but against dissipation or rebellion So they're not behaving and so I believe that what he's saying is basically the same thing

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He's saying to Titus pardon me to Timothy that they are children who are under control.

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They're not rebellious They're not act, you know, oh overtly Actively rebellious, but they are children who are behaved.

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He's disciplining them. Well, right. Exactly. He's disciplined. He's leading them. He's training them So let's go back because we never really dove into husband of one wife

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As we did here. So of those four How do we how do we interpret that and again the four that we mentioned was

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You know that he has to be married can't be a widow or can't be divorced and husband of one man I'm sorry My apologies, there's a whole nother view

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Yeah so we understand it as as a one -woman man the the

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Greek text can be translated either way husband of one wife or one woman man, and you can see how

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Translating it husband of one wife leads us to some conclusions And if we understand it as one woman man, it could lead us to different conclusions

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Even there though, so again, he must be married well What about Paul's words to the

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Corinthians about the good thing of being a single person in? ministry

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So that you have to kind of weigh those things out if you say well, he cannot be a widower. Paul also says to widows

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That you know, you're free that person has passed away I mean that the vow has been fulfilled right and to the young Widows in first Timothy, he tells him get married, right?

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So there's no stigma on remarriage to yours or sin right to the to the widower widower

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So we believe that understanding that there are exceptions that allow divorce

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That those exceptions could come into play when we consider this But there again the the issue the quality that we're looking for is above reproach

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So as people observe This person's life who perhaps has been married more than once what do they see and Does the do they know enough about the past that that's a problem or has it been so recent that it's a problem?

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There needs to be time that has passed So that anyone who looks on would agree that person is a one -woman man, right?

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And and above reproach and you know one of the things that you mentioned in your sermon that I Honestly had never thought about and it just really struck me was you can be a man

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Who's never been divorced and you are not loving your wife. Well, you're not a one -woman man.

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Exactly so it doesn't so it goes beyond just Just he's never been divorced which is a view that I felt for and was taught to hold for a long time

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But there's just so much depth there it's more than just You know, here's the cliff and if you take one step beyond the cliff, well, that's it.

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You're done but there's it in it envelops a lot more of being a

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Christ honoring Christ following husband yeah, if the quality if the The qualification is simply that you've never been divorced then the qualification could simply be you have a wife who endures a lot

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And puts up with you, you know, which and I will be my wife puts up with But it's more than you have you happen to have a wife who will endure and this guy wasn't lucky enough to have a wife that endures your

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Constant barrage of whatever it is that you love her. So you love her Well, you love her like Christ loves the church

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You're an example to the flow and she willingly and joyfully submits to you as Christ does there is the church does to Christ, right?

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Yeah So so also as we consider this issue of marriage, you know one woman man if you look at all of these qualities their qualities or characteristics of a person that are present as we said before and In all the other ones, we don't say that if a person was ever not that That they're disqualified is it's what are you now?

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But this is the one exception that many people take, you know, if you've ever been divorced Then it doesn't matter what you are now

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There's this thing and it disqualifies you forever. And if you do that, then you put this one

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Characteristic this one quality in a category by itself that does not fit any of the other categories. And so presently

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You know, do you? Love your wife assuming you're married.

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Are you a one -woman man? Yeah, and you know and one other question specifically regarding the question of divorce is if a man

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Was divorced before he was a believer. The scripture is clear. Once you become a believer.

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You are a new creation and so Obviously, we would not expect him to have

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You know perfectly healthy Christ honoring marriage before he was converted but after conversion

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Yes, so yeah present reality just like we talked about before. So one of the things that we really want to Emphasize as we we wrap this this episode up is that these are the standards that God has given us

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We are we are not at Liberty to lower that standard Nor are we at the

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Liberty to be more severe in the standard than God is yeah, so Lowering the standards perhaps easy to see we don't want to take these and say but there are exceptions to these standards

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But being more severe, how could we be more severe? Well one would be to expect perfection blameless sounds like perfection

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But there is no one who is perfect except for Christ We understand we're sinful fallen people and pastors are sinful fallen people

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And if you don't think that then you know There's a whole nother conversation because you're putting men on pedestals to where they don't belong.

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They have feet of clay. Absolutely So it's not speaking about perfection And so we want to hold the standard and say he must be above approach without taking it to a higher level than that that God didn't mean for us to take it to so how do we do that and That's where I think what

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Calvin said is is so helpful. You know, we're looking for a man who is not Dismissing his authority.

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He's not giving away his authority by a life that you look at and say no I cannot follow that man So Chuck for someone who is

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Listening to this and maybe they are wrestling with a call to ministry And or maybe they've been in ministry for a long time

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Why? What encouragement can we offer them from this particularly from these qualifications these two specifically?

25:28

Well, no, I mean just the qualifications in general when you approach them and I think that pastors I mean so in my job right editing a video

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Editing audio and video things I constantly want to go back and say what is a good editor look like What is good film look like and so I constantly want to go back and I think that even for an elder

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It's so helpful to go back to these things and remind yourself These are the things that God has called me to do and be sure

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So the person who's wrestling with a call to ministry has God called me. I think so Maybe you know,

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I would think that one of the first steps would be to come to passages like these and first Peter And Just wrestle through them.

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God am I this are you making me to be this do I fit these qualifications? Are there areas that need vast improvement right now?

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And you might also if you're married talk to your wife or talk to your present pastor and ask them to help you walk through These things, you know, do you see these things as?

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Evidences in my life as qualities that are existing or which ones do you see that need improvement and then for the person who's already serving

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I would think that it would be wise to regularly come back to these and look at them again and Ask the

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Lord am I growing in these am I still presently? These things and is there growth in these things because I don't

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I think we may have mentioned last week It's like you study for an entrance exam a test and you pass and now

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I don't have to care about it anymore Well, no you're an example to the flock and if you want the flock to grow in these things and how you've got to run ahead of Them and you've got to grow in these things yourself

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Yeah, and I think to that points to the benefit of a plurality of elders Sure, you know because if you're with a plurality of elders, then you're gonna have men around you who are go and ask them

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Hey, do you see me? Presently pursuing these things Yes, and Then they are able to urge each other on press as iron sharpens iron.

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So that's But for those who are not in the ministry or not pursuing being a deacon

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For the layperson what encouragement is there for them? Well, God gives good gifts to his church

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And this is what they are to look like and so you can ask the Lord of the church to give you these kind of You can raise you

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Yeah, make you more like them But even if you're not ever going to be that you make me more like it sure but raise up men who are like this

28:02

Yeah, absolutely as we wrap this episode up. Do you want to say, you know last week

28:07

Chuck? You mentioned three volumes set by Al Martin. We made sure that there was a link to that in the description

28:13

That'll be in the link again in the description There will be a link in the description again

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Also a link to your sermon series and we're gonna continue that series, right? So we finished portraits of the church offices of the church

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There's a few more weeks. Yes. Okay a few more weeks coming up so all of those minus one with the audio messed up will be

28:33

In the in the link below whether you're listening or watching to this next week