White Fragility with Chris Hohnholz

Okay, you're gonna have to you're gonna have to do the whole podcast dress like that Run your music

That's great This this is gonna make great for the video.

All right I Didn't do something like that you were just gonna egg me on until I did anyway

Was not I was not Okay, folks.

I'm just gonna start off by telling you anything and I mean anything can happen today on this podcast just saying

Come to the rap report with your host Andrew rap reports where we provide biblical interpretation and application

This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community for more content or to request a speaker for your church

Go to striving for eternity Okay, bud what in the world were we thinking

I Was just following your lead, sir. I just I don't know now for any of the patreons

They're gonna they're gonna want us to make sure that they they watched the pre -show just a little bit of the clip of before we started recording

For the patreons you'll get to see our guest Conducting music.

We'll just we'll say that we'll say that I can't say how what the attire was

I will say there was a superhero conducting music. I'll at least say that much but apart from that And I will admit it was very entertaining

I should have stayed the record button much earlier, correct, but yes But We're we're gonna be blessed today to talk about a horrible topic that's really sounded weird.

No, we're blessed by our guest Not so much by the topic But we've we've announced this for two weeks.

Now. We have an award -winning Podcaster with us today. He is half of the voice of reason radio and it is none other than Chris Han holds so Chris welcome to the rap report.

Thank you brother I appreciate you being on and it just to make it clear I'm the lesser half because rich is really much the better half of the show.

Just saying Well, well that might be but you know, it is something that the chemistry you guys have on that show just works very well

It is kind of fun where it's like the first five minutes is some banter and then it's it's always the fun experiment to see okay, how is

Rich gonna transition from the banter to the subject, you know, so it's it's always it's always fun to see how that's gonna happen

But he does a good job. He does so but you've recently Wrote a book review and folks.

I'll have all the links in the show notes But this is a book review that you had done on a book.

You were you were so excited to read. Is that correct? About as excited as cutting my eyeballs open with rusty with rusty razor blades.

Yes. That's about how excited I was to read it Yeah, yeah, and that's why we're saying we're really glad that you're here, but the subject itself maybe not so much but it's necessary It's necessary so you're

You know before we get into the book review Which is gonna be a slave to the

King calm This is I'm trying to think how best to word the book

I Mean, I think the subtitle is gonna really tell you enough But white fragility is the subtitle is why it's so hard for white people to talk about racism

Is you know, I I almost feel like the response that is Because black people do it all the time.

Is that is that we're supposed to understand I mean But let us first start because I don't

I'm I'd be shocked if people in my audience don't know who you are and And don't listen to voice a reason radio, but just in case introduce yourself let folks know a little bit about yourself and You know what you what you do, you know your podcast what you guys do you know what you do for fun and Activities outside of you know your day job, you know,

I don't know anything you want Oh Okay. Well as Andrew said, my name is

Chris Hahn Holtz. I am one half of the host Team of voice of reason radio, which is a podcast that myself and Richard story

I've been putting on for about a little over four and a half years now and it is a extension of our site slaves to the

King comm which kind of started as a Just a personal blog quite a while ago

And we've been doing that for about four and a half years The whole point of voice and reason radio is that there is only one true voice of reason and that's the

Word of God anything outside of that is us bring trying to bring the world's ideas in Rather than looking through the

Word of God at the world and then trying to understand how we should then live So we have to filter everything through the

Word of God It is simply a podcast with two individuals rich and myself who live literally two time zones away from each other

I'm on the west coast and near Reno, Nevada riches in Mississippi and You made mention of the fact we have this great banter and great chemistry that thing that I think always cracks people up is they don't realize rich and I have never met face to face and we've

Known each other for nearly seven years We've been doing this for four and a half years It's basically a program of two

Christians who just love the Lord love his word and try to talk about a variety of topics together and Kind of like a just a conversation between brethren and you get to be part of that And so that's what we've done and that's what we try to do with it

We have two stated goals. Number one is to glorify God and number two is to edify the Saints that's what we hope to accomplish each and every show and God has been gracious to us that we have a small audience that's been faithful and shares the program and we're now part of Christian podcast community as of earlier this year and We're grateful to be a part of that and be part of a network of podcasts that are trying to simply glorify

God with the platform available Myself, I'm a husband of 19 years just as of the 27th.

So little just under a week ago We have my wife Christine is just a wonderful treasure who's constantly been there for me through thick and thin we have two teenage boys that we homeschool and I'm looking forward very forward to retirement for my current

Current employment and hopefully one day to continue to do this type of stuff long term as as something that if God is so wills,

I'll be able to do that and It's just I'm a member of Community Bible Church of Reno, Nevada I have three wonderful pastors who who should faithfully shepherd over us each and every week who pour their heart into understanding the word and proclaiming it and building up the

Saints and equipping them and they've just been a blessing and they they know about what I do and they're supportive of it and It's it's blessing to to be in that kind of environment.

So that's kind of me in a in a real tight nutshell Yeah, and you know before you joined with Christian podcast community you were awarded with the best episode of the year last year

On the one you did on help on help pastors. I'm drowning That that was that was a major honor, thank you

Yeah And it was deserved and and I mean I've I've said this before and for folks who don't listen to voice the reason radio

The I put this up as one of the top podcasts That are out there and and it's it's it really is amazing the amount of content in detail that you guys get into and discuss is

Especially when you know, neither of you are in ministry full -time, you know

It's just it's just really it neat to see a lot of good content there

So I do want to encourage you guys to to do that You know, can I can

I really get away without playing at least a clip of your co -hosts Let's see. I have I have so many here, but rich.

This is not my fault This is probably my favorite clip from and you know

See because you guys don't edit I could tell because you have this sometimes said

Look we're not trained professionals. I tell people don't try this at home because Sometimes you get you get this and this this is a gem from your co -host

Well, I've said this before and I still stick to it now over the last 10 years off and on When it comes to ministry versus boxing boxing is far less violent

And he is right and I think that really plays into a lot of how you know when you started your podcast

You you had you and rich have been podcasting actually for a while longer than voice of reason But you got out of it for a while and what was interesting you guys had gotten back in in the early episodes

What what ended up happening was You you guys were starting out saying look we wanted to have a voice of reason being

God's Word you you're kind of fed up with nonsense, you saw on social media of Christians and you know the poor behavior of Christians and I think that that was really what started

I think your your podcast early on and now it's just kept growing and continuing

And the blog site as well. So we appreciate your work. Oh, and I appreciate that.

You're right Our hope was net we Never wanted to be and it was kind of funny because I actually got somebody called me a discernment podcaster this week

I go figure Yeah, that was that was a fun comment but that was one of the things we wanted to avoid is

There's a lot we can discuss as Christians and we're gonna have different perspectives

None of us have this wrap so tight that we've got every single detail dialed in so every

Every time we speak there's a chance we're gonna say or do something wrong. We may hold a position that's wrong

We may hold a position that isn't biblical, but we can interact and discuss these issues without beating the living snot out of each other which

Oftentimes is what happens on social media and a lot of social media platforms such as podcasts and blogs and other forms

Often become exactly that and so we've always hoped to Be able to model that you can do this kind of platform.

You can do blog podcasting You can do blogging you can stand firm you can be passionate But you can still try to strive to understand that there are others who hold a position that you don't

That you're going to have to learn is that even if they disagree with you that may not make them the enemy that may not

Make them a false teacher and they may be somebody who's simply wrong or maybe you're wrong and you don't see it

And so we have to learn to to work together in that regard. So even when we're talking about contradictory

Theological issues we've always tried. I'm not saying we've ever done it perfectly But we've always tried to at least be fair and how we represented somebody else

And so that's what we hope that our program does is that it encourages other?

Christians when you talk about these issues number one you go to the Word of God. That is your lens.

That is your filter you don't have a Opportunity use anything else. That's what you go to and then you do so that even if it's to be firm and to be passionate

You're still doing that with love in your eyes and care for in your heart for someone else who is a brother in Christ So, let's let's get into a topic for tonight this book review you had done

Is Anyone who's listened to your Podcast knows you've been talking about this for a while.

It's you've been working through it very slowly Not because you read slowly But more because you you were trying to resist maybe reserve what little hair you had left.

I'm not I mean, I'm I'm just saying as a listener to the podcast. I heard you go through in this

So, why did you choose this book to discuss to do a review on So first why this book before we get into the content of it?

Well, it was one of several books that I wanted to look at and the simple fact is I had people ask me why why on earth are you reading these books and I'll simply put it this way one of my

One of the people that I look very respectfully toward is dr James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and one of the things

I he does whenever he's dealing with any topic is He will let the other side speak for themselves.

He will address what the person has said in context and I Believe that's a valuable tool because it helps us not build straw man arguments that we can easily misrepresent even if we're trying to be

Faithful to the Word of God so as this topic of critical race theory

Intersectionality systemic racism continues to build and continues to become more and more the norm in our in our country

It's one of those conversations that rich and I have needed to discuss on the show so finally after listening to people like, you know,

Daryl Harrison and Virgil Walker over just thinking and Reading watching the

Cynodoc by what standard that founders put together and reading the book that went with it. I Began to realize it would be necessary for myself to do just like what dr

White says you go to the sources you go to the original sources And so white fragility was one of those books that it is it's not an unknown book

You're going you walk into any particular Store that has books whether it's a Walmart a target a

Barnes and Noble who goes to bookstores anymore But anywhere you go, you're going to find this book and it's even being used.

I believe it was in Please don't please don't hate me if I get the city wrong, but I think it was Seattle, Washington That had a diversity training course.

This was their go -to training manual and it was like, okay this is an important book and The funny thing about is you read the subtitle why it's so hard for white people to talk about racism

Here's the thing Robin D 'Angelo the author is a white woman So this is a white woman telling us as white, you know white readers and that's who it's

Gary geared for We don't know how to talk about racism So I knew I was going to have to read this and like you said, um, it was much it was slow

It was hard to read I think it was Samuel say who first reviewed it out of the people that we know and He talked about wanting to have surgery without without anesthetic to ever have to rather than ever have to read this book again and So I knew it was gonna be painful.

So I grabbed my pen I sat down and with every page that went by I couldn't go more than two maybe three paragraphs without writing notes highlighting underlining whatever and that's why it took so very long because If you can read this book in a very it's about 150 pages you could read it in a couple of days if you wanted to but if you're reading it with any thought sort of critical thinking

You're gonna have to slow down Because there's a lot there and a lot of assumption a lot of presuppositions a lot of bias built into it

And there is no critical thinking allowed. So if you don't do that if you don't take that time

You're gonna it's it's like getting beaten over the head with a baseball bat over and over you're finally just gonna capitulate and that's what this book does and I was

I Knew I was gonna have to do that if I wanted to be able to articulate What critical race theory talks about why the idea of systemic racism is anti -biblical why as Christians?

we need to understand these things because they're using definitions that we don't use and if you don't go to their books and their resources

You're going to run the risk of creating straw men and wrongly handling the the material

Well, let's get into this the book itself Because this is

I mean you laid out the case of why this book becomes important We know this is an issue that is affecting the church

You've dealt with this on voice of reason radio. We've dealt with here on the rap report.

We've dealt with it on apologetics live So the issue is is something that is not going to go away especially now that we have unfortunately, well -known

Christian pastors who are now I don't know giving up the

Bible for the sake of a platform. I just don't get it, but they're they're deciding they're gonna go woke and they're going to you know, start teaching that you know, the

America is systemically racist which if it really is Then there really is no choice, right?

I mean if America really is systemically racist then you can't change it So there's no need for a book like this

Right. The only thing we should do is, you know, just basically Pay all those that are black to move back to Africa and say we're sorry.

We brought you here, right? Because they say that we're the cause even though we didn't own slaves, right so And forgetting the fact that it was, you know

Africans that kidnapped Africans and sold them as slaves before the You know whites were doing it.

So, you know, it's just it's it's All this stuff when they say it's systemic that it can't change

Then you really they're there what's the purpose of going on with this because there is no There's no solution to it.

Let me give you a James Cohn quote. You see you read this I've I ended up reading Black theology black power from James Cohn who's really the father of black liberation theology

But he goes he says black hatred is the black man strong strong aversion to white society

No, no black man living in white America can escape it Well, right.

I mean my thinking is if there's no way to escape it then there's no solution to it So why write the book?

I mean, this is the critical thinking you were referring to right well and and the sad part about it is the purpose of writing those books isn't

Really to address. Hey, there's racism and we need to Actual figure out what's going on and why etc.

It's actually about Destroying power structures. That's what the whole books are about that, you know and and D 'Angelo makes this case in her book and I know others do as well that because The system is you know

The the nation is systemically racist the only way you can resolve that is by destroying the existing power structures and changing them and then if you do that, then you can change the who's in power who's oppressing who's not oppressed and Therefore then you bring about this utopian equality.

So the purpose of writing these books isn't about critical thinking It's not about okay.

How do we actually address the sin of racism which there are there is racism that's that anybody who says that if you deny systemic racism, you're denying racism is is is

Plain word games and so as a Christian we recognize that the Bible says to have untrust hatred of anyone is

Sinful and if you have unjust hatred of someone on the basis of their ethnicity, we know what that is

That's in secular terminology. That's racism. So we acknowledge that racism exists

What we dispute is the definitions that the critical race theorist brings to the to the table

The critical race theorist isn't going to allow you to change to challenge those definitions and that's what this book is about It's about preventing you from actually challenging critical race theory as a whole and it's going to paint you into a corner to where you only have one option and that's challenging the existing power structures and so clearly

And we're there's no way to get around this we're gonna be talking about Marxism Socialism So has and that's really the underlying thing here

It has has this this idea of breaking down social structures You think this has ever happened before or been used as an argument in history, maybe yeah

Karl Marx. Oh, yeah So, I mean when

I see the book like this and I see the review you had You the question I always ask with this stuff is what's the end game

All right. Yeah, the end game is very clear. The end game is that It is the toppling of Western culture.

It is the it is the establishment of a new power structure that the ruling elite will then they'll discard everything else and It's what socialism and communism has always done you'll you will establish a ruling elite

You you put the haves and the have -nots at odds with one another you create a conflict you create a revolution the ruling elites come in They take control and then we're all equal before Yeah, and that's the thing that is amazed

I'm always amazed with is that people think that somehow Human beings given lots of control and power over their human beings.

It's gonna create a utopia and Yet every time it's been tried the people who are fighting today

For this justice that they say that you know to overcome the the oppression they feel

In a few years when they get their way, they're gonna be on the streets, you know begging for food This is the consistent pattern.

We I mean Venezuela didn't take very long to go from being a top producing country to Having restrictions on their use of electricity and begging for food in the streets killing one another in the streets now for bread

It doesn't take long and and when you look at this You have to go.

Well, what is the the end goal of this? The end goal for many unfortunately,

I think is a black supremacy and that really doesn't solve the problem.

It actually continues it I mean, I've said this many times. The only way to end racism is by ending all racism

Yeah, you can't end it by saying we're gonna make up for one injustice with another injustice

All that creates is more hatred Right, you know and the problem with it is the definition of injustice changes

So you and I would recognize that anybody who looks at another person?

With a certain skin color and says I hate you for your skin color and I'm going to oppress you and I'm gonna make sure

You can't get By your own merit to move forward and to and to be successful We would recognize that is unjust that is unbiblical that is a sin

However, as D 'Angelo points out in this book that can only be one -sided

There's only one way that anybody that that kind of oppression exists and that is because this system was built by White racist slave owners, so only they hold that power.

And so anybody fighting back against them It's essentially they're a freedom fighter. Essentially. You're you're rebelling against and and fighting back against the oppression

So therefore your reaction is justified That's why when you hear of the riots in the streets and there are evangelical leaders who go

Okay, the riots are bad, but we need to understand why that's the language of critical race theory that is saying there is a justification

That we can dismiss sinful behavior by saying years of oppression, uh, you know, uh,

Racism is systemic all of that and therefore it's justifiable. So that's the problem It's the definitions are not biblical.

The definitions are worldly and uh sociological and marxist in nature So you cannot actually

Uh, you know get around it if you if you don't recognize what it is. You're dealing with which is a changing of the words

Yeah, it's a classic Post -modern technique. I mean, this is what you see

Across academia. You see it culturally you see it socially where we are using familiar phrases familiar words

But we're putting new meaning to it and just I read this book as well chris and one of the things she tacitly says

Uh quote people of color May also hold prejudices and discriminate against white people

But they lack the social and institutional power That transforms their prejudice and discrimination into racism

The impact of their prejudice on whites is temporary and contextual when

I say that only whites can be racist I mean that in the united states only whites have the collective social and institutional power and privilege over people of color

People of color do not have this power and privilege over white people. It's exactly what you're saying.

It is with regards to The system and they're not looking for equity of opportunity.

They are looking for an inversion of authority and oppression and and control you know, absolutely and that I recall that passage and the interesting thing about that passage is

Understand when we we used to define racism as as she puts it like an intentional directed act

At someone on the basis of their race, right? That's how we always understood it issues of bias and Discrimination.

We're kind of your broad topic That's how we if you know discrimination is is basically saying, you know,

I choose one thing over another It's like i'm i'm choosing taco bell over mcdonald's. I discriminate it against mcdonald's.

There's good ways and bad ways. We discriminate So in a negative way of discriminating if I say that, you know, uh, you know bud has uh,

This this hat that I think is ugly and terrible and i'm going to mistreat him on the basis of that hat

I've chosen to treat someone who's in the image creating the image and likeness of god in a poor manner

I've made that choice on the basis of something ridiculous Just on the basis of the hat that he's wearing

So that that's a negative form of discrimination and that was the broad way we would understand discrimination

Then we would make it more refined and we would say look if I mistreat someone on the basis of their sex I was sexist if I mistreat someone on the basis of their ethnicity.

I was I was racist if I do it on religion It was you know, it was a form of Discrimination that was religious based

So she takes that term racism and plucks it out From being a a refined understanding of Of a particular form of discrimination and she puts it above and she says now it's something different.

It's a system And she repeatedly states throughout the course of the book Racism is a system not an act.

So this is yeah, it's not an event and they take it They've taken that out. They've given it its own meaning and they've put it up above everything else and now

Racism is what drives everything and discrimination is an underlying component of systemic racism

Yeah, and and this is where in our culture. We're starting to see a change where They're they're having a different term.

So you have racism and fighting racism And it's interesting because they recognize people are recognizing what racism historically has always been

As as you just explained right you're you treat someone based on the color of their skin or something like that and The the idea of racism isn't enough now.

It's now you have to be actively fighting against Something that they also say you can't control you you can't do anything to stop it, which it's like it's so someone that uses critical thinking it's like your mind just blows up right because How you're you're you're

Telling us we have to change and at the same time telling us there's nothing we can do to change

Well, that's that's probably I think one of the more insidious parts of this book is that you are put Instantly on a treadmill that you can never get off of yeah

The thing with the problem with the the the racism versus anti -racism is that there is no neutral position allowed if you are someone who is white and you're born into american culture you are by de facto racist because You are participating in a system that has elevated you and benefited you now

You may not you may look at your life and go. I don't think i've had a very great life But the by the very fact that you are white you are not dealing with the oppression

That a black person deals with so therefore you have a benefit you have A privilege that has somehow even in a small way you've benefited from so the second you say no

I haven't been you are exhibiting as she terms it white fragility you are

And one of the the things one of the more annoying uh points of the book was when

She and you'll have to forgive me. I forget who the the person she quotes but she basically cites an example where an individual says

To say that you didn't know you were racist and that you were part of a white privilege system

It's kind of like walking down the street And people are stuffing money into your pocket that you never asked for never wanted

But it's being received by you and you're benefiting from Therefore, so the the insinuation well,

I won't even say insinuation The direct correlation is you know as a white person, you know, you've benefited from your position in society

And so the only position you can take that's not racist is to be anti -racist you have to work against and you have to give up your place of privilege you have to Elevate those who are persons of color who are black or indigenous

You have to elevate them and you have to work to tear down the system that has benefited you Otherwise even just saying i'm not going to partake of this.

I'm not going to act in this way I'm not going to speak in this way. I'm not going to affirm these things that is

Insufficient because you are still existing in the system that benefits you so that's the problem with how this you know how

Racism versus anti -racism is positive. It is It is me you are immediately thrown into an oppressor class and you were not allowed out of it

And you may you'll never really be allowed to be out of it. D 'angelo repeatedly states throughout her book. She'll never not be racist

She's a white woman teaching white people how to fight against racism She says her of herself because she's a white woman.

She'll never not be racist So you're stuck in that oppressor class You can never get out of it, but you have to dismantle the existing system for any hope for even the slightest amount of atonement

You know what? I find interesting with the whole thinking here and what how you're just because bud read the book

You read the book. I read your book review so I But the thing that amazes me

Is when you take a step back and you you read books like this You know i've read a bunch of james cone and you you read this

And you go wow, you know if I was black i'd be insulted What these people are saying because they're not only saying that they've that blacks in america have been oppressed but They can't get out of the oppression without the permission of white people

Yeah, right Right there you look at this and say well they're they're still having a view

Of blacks that are that's demeaning To sit there and say well you can't do this on your own

We white people have to give up our white privilege for you to be able to get ahead because you can't do it without us

So you're still that's still even in their arguments that they're Racist be in fact i'm going to agree with her that she is racist

Um, because that's what she sees. She sees people by color And that's racism

She treats people different based on color Of skin when it's just a different amount of melanin.

We're all we're all colored. Okay so the reality though is

She is grouping people in by what she just determines is a race

And based on that she's she's basically saying that certain people can't get ahead unless she convinces all of us white people to to Basically give up our privilege so that blacks can get ahead because they can't do it on their own

I strongly disagree with that And this is where you end up seeing the breakdown because what you end up seeing is there are plenty of blacks who get ahead

There's other reasons they're being oppressed and it doesn't have to do with The whiteness that they think it is which by the way the way they define whiteness is kind of interesting as well

You know if you actually have a mother and a father that's whiteness But then black lives matter wants to destroy the whole mother father thing because they don't want a nuclear family so it's like so they you know, these groups want to like Continue the very thing that's hurting their community and Yet they want to blame it on whiteness

And then say that we somehow are going to air in the control and the power to get them to be out of an oppressed state

You know instead of looking at all the other factors that go into it because there's plenty of blacks that do much better than plenty of whites

There's plenty of blacks who are smarter than plenty of whites. It has nothing to do with them being an oppression issue

Does have to do with You know just the way that god's created us It it does have to do with the fact of you know, our environment.

I mean very simple You have someone who has mother father they're able to sit home and study and that education is really important and parents encourage doing homework and studying

Versus someone who is in a single mother home There the mother is working two maybe three jobs to try and make ends meet.

She's not home for the kids There's no one else at home for the kids the kid has to take care of himself fend for himself

There's no encouragement to do To do his homework. There's no one watching him.

You look at those two scenarios and In both those scenarios notice nothing about color.

Maybe the first scenario is a black family and the other one's a white family but the reality is is that child that that is in that second scenario is

Not going to have the same advantages when they get older as the as the one in the first family

Has nothing to do with color right So there's a lot of other factors people don't look into and yet You know what?

I'm guessing from her book when i've read from others like james cone They put it as if it's still

Blacks just can't do this without white help which I think is very belittling and the bigger issue

I see as a christian is And you've already hit on this chris it gets away from the the reality that we are created in the image of god

And and it's those attributes that we are that god has given to us that make us a human that we all share and this is what gives us the ability to overcome things the reality is

Every time i'm sure chris you've had adversity growing up bud as well

What did that do that does one of two things typically? It either makes you stronger

Or makes you weaker It's all how do you deal with adversity? If you start playing the victim

You're going to be weaker if you're going to look at that and say i'm going to you know I just listened to a podcast about sydney portier

How he was you know, he was here. It's kind of neat. I didn't know as much but he he basically was growing up in a family

Um, he was a I think the the first black uh actor to to get an emmy um, and so You know or whatever the awards is that they give themselves um, and so the

You know, he ended up coming to his country because his he had a big family He was he happened to be born in america made him an american citizen so the parents had to get rid of someone

He was the he could get to america. So they shipped him off But He was told he he couldn't he wasn't a he couldn't be a good actor

He wouldn't be a good actor go to be a dishwasher And he turned and says no He literally grabbed the guy and said no

I am going to work harder than everyone else I want you i'll do whatever it takes and the guy said fine

You know, we're going to keep you in the school And he became You know an award -winning actor, right?

Because what did he do when he faced adversity? He didn't just go. Oh, what was me? It's it's the society

He said no i'm going to work to conquer that He said, you know because he he ended up saying he wasn't just going to be a good actor

He was going to be better than any white actor. He was going to be the best and that was his goal

So I I think that's the thing that I see as I you know When I was reading through your your review of the book, which

I encourage people to go and read because I you know uh I have it linked in the show notes

You made some comments about this book and How you know, what is the purpose or the the presumption she makes?

You end up talking about You know your first point that you kind of make is that there's a biased presupposition that she has

Could you go into a little bit of detail on on that? Yeah, first and foremost When she's writing the book in the introduction

Robin, d 'angelo makes it clear. She is she is not going to argue Whether or not systemic racism exists she implicitly explicitly states, excuse me explicitly states

She starts with the assumption systemic racism exists That now I I've said this in the in the review and i'm going to say it here

I understand why if you're writing a book that says I believe in systemic racism and I believe that white people are

Reacting wrongly to it You're not going to spend a ton of time Trying to explain and convince people you're going to address the problem

So I understand why you would start with that, but it also colors everything. She says there is zero interaction with Opposing perspectives.

Yeah, she's not she's not going to allow for An opposing perspective every single instance in which an opposing perspective is brought up is termed white fragility

So she controls that narrative from page one She is not going to give ground in any way shape or form

So that's that is a presupposition that is entirely biased in favor of critical race theory of systemic racism

You you know you you are not allowed to bring anything into this you are there to be told you to sit there

Be quiet and be told what you are and so that's a huge problem because If you're going to you know, if you are trying to convince people that they're acting in a way that is inconsistent and and wrongly treats others

You have to convince them That the behavior is wrong when we talk from a gospel perspective

About our need for jesus christ. What do we what should we be doing? Not every christian does this but what should we be doing we go to the law of god we talk about To lie is a violation of god's word to worship a false god is a violation of his commandments to hate others

And unjustly is a is a sin we take people and show them in his word

Where god has said you can't do this and when you do you are rebelling against him and then we take them to christ

And when we talk about the fact that christ received the penalty you you deserve and through his propitiary death and resurrection

You can be redeemed We build that case if we are rightly explaining the gospel to people but When if you were to come to someone and beat them about the head and neck and say repent repent repent repent

And never show them What it is they're supposed to repent of they may capitulate out of fear

And they may make a profession But did they actually come to understand the gospel?

Did they rightly make a profession of faith or are they simply stopping? Or just simply saying it to get you to stop from beating them and that's what she's doing

She brings in a verbal bludgeoning From page one you are a racist.

You will always be a racist There is no uh, there is no other way to view yourself and anything you do to defend yourself

Is proof of your racism? So that's the problem is it that she I understand why you want to start with the presupposition

We all start with presupposition. We started this show with a presupposition. We we believe her book is wrong

But we're trying to interact with what she says And why we believe it's wrong so we can compare it against scripture and say this is how we should deal with it

We it won't if you're going to make the case of something You have to rightly interact with the opposing viewpoint and there's just none of that allowed in this book

It's absolutely This is what you are and you're going to it's a steady drumbeat every single page

Yeah, and you know the thing that I see with this is if I was to turn to her and say

Well, I know that you are a racist and i'm not And you're really just Putting this book out for the sake of marxism.

She'd deny it But yet that's exactly what she's doing to us I've never owned a slave.

No one in my family has owned slaves. We are we you know come from russia and romania They didn't have the slave the african slave trade there

How am I responsible and and why why is it because of the color of my skin i'm responsible?

for slavery and yet All the blacks who kidnapped blacks and sold them as slaves in the african slave trade.

They're not responsible And how are you going to figure out which which ones they are now? You know, so it just becomes this big mess and Excuse me, you know, so I want to get into some of the the

You know, basically the rewriting of history stuff like that that you've brought out in the book. Let's let's do that right after this commercial

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Chris, you kind of like that. So you smile with the sinos, huh? You have rhinos or republicans in name only and you know, it could be chino

Right with a c7 c can also have an s sound and it sounds better as sin. Oh They're christian in name only

It's they prefer their sin over christ. So I I think it fit Gotta get a good chuckle for me.

So so let's let's talk about this book and they're You know, basically rewriting of history

Why does that end up having to play into this whole critical race theory that they have? Well, yeah, you have to understand that from the critical race theory perspective the system that we exist in is de facto systemic racism

It there and there has to be a reason that it is so you have to Okay, how did we get from there to here?

You know, that that's that's that's a good question to ask How did america get from where it once was to it is now?

History teaches us that that's what history is for to help us learn where we've come from and learn where we're going

So that's great. Let's let's examine that the problem is is that history is not clean

We we can't you know, we all grew up looking at history books and we looked at timelines 1776 the declaration of independence, you know, and uh, we look at the dates of the you know, the uh, you know the revolutionary war and we look at the dates of The civil war and we look at the dates of when you know

The civil rights era happened and we have these clean nice little lines that we can point at and say that's when these things occurred

But history if you're really understanding history Is not clean. There are multiple streams of influence

That cause things to happen martin luther king jr. Certainly was One of the seminal figures of the civil rights era, but he wasn't the only person

So we think of the civil rights or we think of martin luther king jr. And we should the man did a lot of great work

But that doesn't mean he was the only influence There were many people who agreed with his message people in the government who didn't you know

Never were met him never talked to him, but already believed what he believed and some of them

Surprisingly were white. So here's the thing History has multiple streams of influence.

It's it never has real clean start and stop dates And there's all kinds of uh, you know

Factors to be involved as to why things happened the way they did The problem with the history presented in d 'angelo's book is it is reduced down to one stream slavery

You know slavery was here in america slavery was uh a a bedrock principle in the colonies

The you know, the southern colonies and others would not give up slaves even if they wanted to join together so therefore

Slavery is the bedrock foundation of our western culture in america and that because of that that is what

Influenced everything forward and so that it is completely reductionistic It is bringing it down to a single stream a single reason

As to why things are the way they are and so you were talking about earlier about how the slave trade happened

Daryl, harrison has talked about this on just thinking talking about how his own ancestors in africa

Who were black who were tribesmen who kidnapped other tribes members? And sold them into slavery that issue is a part of the issue of slavery

It is one of the influence of slavery If you didn't have people in africa kidnapping other people and selling them you couldn't have had slaves that came here

So that is a stream of which what influenced slavery in america

You had people for example, like john adams one of our founding fathers who abhorred slavery as did his wife and when they're fighting for Freedom in america wrote of the fact that they had problems with the idea here

We are trying to fight for our freedoms yet. We will not give up free give freedom to the people that we enslave

That's part of our influence of our history. John adams was one of the major Influencers of what eventually became our constitution

He you know, he had a lot of impact on the growth of our nation And the birth of it.

So when you take all those factors out And you simply reduce it down to slavery existed white people owned slaves we

Christians should have known it was wrong people should have known it was wrong and they didn't get rid of it.

Therefore That they wanted black people to be lower tier and the whites to be supreme

When you make that your basis for history, you are absolutely disregarding anything that is that has

Any other possible influence? It's not to say that if slavery didn't have an impact on the birth of our nation it did you know that had not the founding fathers been willing to Compromise on the issue

We wouldn't even had colonies joining together because there were southern Colonies that refused if they if they were forced to give up slavery, so it had an impact.

It's just not the only impact It certainly influenced the south for generations.

That's why the civil war eventually was fought So yes, we acknowledge that it exists. We acknowledge it's part of history

But it is not the sole component of history. And why is it that that is the you know, you know is that?

all of white culture is painted by that when you had whites who were fighting and Abolitionists who were you know part of the you know, getting slaves out of the south up to the north

You had a lot of people who were involved in that How is it their influence is not part of what has developed as white culture because it can't be allowed it has to be

Extricated out and we have to have it down to this one narrow stream And what that does is that's the obvious stream

That's the one everybody can look at and go. Ooh bad. And so that must have had a huge influence So therefore yeah,

I guess they're right this, you know, it it What you want it took a civil war to get emancipation, but even that wasn't enough

They were treated as second class and it took the civil rights era But even then it wasn't enough and then we had you know, white supremacy groups like the kkk and neo nazis

It's the easiest thing to point to But it's not the only thing you get to point to and but yet D 'angelo and she cites only pre crt pre critical race theory sources, by the way, that's how she gets this history

She only points to that and she will not allow for anything else And if you bring anything else into the mix again, you're asserting your white fragility

You're trying to assert white solidarity and white dominance in the conversation well the point that you made earlier with regards to she opens the book up with a

Patent presupposition So we already know where she's at and when you've done that you've sort of hat tipped your your world view

So as you go back and look at history You have to be revisionist in it.

You have to read it through that lens and that's what she's done One of the quotes I was looking at here says the u .s.

Economy was based The u .s. Economy was based on the abduction and enslavement of african people the displacement and genocide of indigenous

People and the annexation of mexican lands and that's this huge Generalization, but it's also largely revisionistic

Uh did some of those things happen? Absolutely, but this is not the corpus of all of american history um

So I think your observation of the presupposition that she establishes from the get -go

That does I mean, it's just like every page you read through this. It's just how do you how do you not think this way?

given where your world view is coming from so Well, that's exactly.

Oh, sorry. Sorry. I'm not good That's exactly the thing the issue about the entire economy was based on was the entire economy based on it.

No Look when we Go read, you know, david mccullough's book on john adams brought him up a little bit ago

John adams, what was he doing in france and in europe during during the war? Securing loans why because we had we had no money

How did we get? You know this economy we were in debt when the nation was born

It took getting our our freedom and then being able to produce and export

And begin to pay back those loans and gain money from other nations before we began to actually develop an economy

So that's ignored, you know, oh the whole basis was slavery part of that. Yes. Was that a despicable part of it?

Yes Should we say that that was the only basis for it? Absolutely not because america was a producing nation and eventually paid back those loans and To be able to say that that's the only basis for our economy as you say completely reductionistic and in in his laser focused world view of Systemic racism you have to if you are going to argue that the system is racist

You can't allow for any other influence. There can only be one influence

That's how you establish the system is wrong is is racist Yeah, and I was you know

I was going to bring that point up and also the fact that this really anyone who's read the book 1984

I remember reading that book in high school going there is no way this could ever happen the idea of being able to just Change terminology just change words and everyone's going to go back and rewrite all the history to match the words

It was like this is so ridiculous, but that is what we're seeing right now That's exactly what we're seeing in our culture

Um, you know, this is an interesting thing that I had seen from james cone Because this is where I think the disconnect is quote is from him from the book

Black theology and black power from james cone quote. It is interesting that most people

Do understand why jews can hate germans? Why can they not understand why black people who have been deliberately and systematically dehumanized or murdered?

By the structure of this society hate white people unquote now, here's the thing I find with this

You don't find that the jewish people hate the germans anymore That generation that did it there was a hatred for them

The ones that actually did this to to the people you don't have it today why because That didn't continue

Right. This is the problem are blacks being dehumanized. No, not the way they were with slavery

This is a redefinition of the term to say. Oh see it's still going on But this is not the the only people being dehumanized really today

There's two groups of people being dehumanized today at mass numbers children in the womb

And people that involved in human trafficking You know the victims in human trafficking. Those are the two groups and I don't hear any of these people

Trying to defend either of those two groups who are actually legitimately being dehumanized

And and this is the the issue that I end up seeing now you made a point and I know we're

I don't want to go too long on this But I knew we'd go a little bit long we didn't even we didn't even get you know

We this has been a serious for anyone who knows you and I Um, especially online we've had very few joking around.

I actually wasn't sure Where this was going to go if we'd be completely serious, which I hoped but um,

I mean because I was going to say you did make one comment about preferences You know and just like you know,

I think we could all agree that no sane person would enjoy eating at Olive Garden I mean, that's something we could say

Just okay Well, then again now we'd have to question whether you're sane see but isn't this this is exactly how the argument

I can I can I can solve that problem. I'm not Right, but you see i'm friends with you that establishes that yeah

This is how these these arguments go I make an argument That within the argument if you disagree with me, it proves that i'm right exactly

And and that's their argument and that I think is why we end up seeing as you pointed out in your review

That this is a lot of a focus on emotional manipulation so the last two things

I'd want to talk about if we can in is the emotional manipulation and then This whole thing that you refer to as ethnic gnosticism

The the emotional manipulation is done through really having any lack of context you know, and I know that if somebody comes up to you and says

Jimmy told me I was a terrible person and he hates me and the first thing that's going to do is

Tug on your heartstrings and feel bad for this person that jimmy said is a terrible person because you know this person Until you get to jimmy and then jimmy says well, yeah, see what happened was

She went up and she smacked somebody across the back of the head stole their purse dumped her soda on him and ran off and laughing

And so I pulled her aside and I said what you did was terrible That is not right. You need to go back and apologize.

You need to make that right that that is a terrible act And I and I I rebuked them for that and then you go

Oh, uh Sorry, jimmy. I had some bad thoughts about you. I really should have gotten some more information And that's what happens without throughout the course of d 'angelo's book.

She she likes to cite studies She likes to cite anecdotes. She likes to go to like legal cases. She uses a lot of these anecdotal type of types of evidence and says this is proof of um systemic racism and so she'll cite things like the statistics of who holds position of wealth or power and Overwhelmingly the statistics will say there's x number of white people in these positions

And without discussing about how that happened why that happened She immediately makes it clear, you know, the implication is because all these people are white that's proof of racism

There's no context given to those numbers She'll cite legal, uh discussions.

Um You talked about okay. You're you're jewish. You've got uh, you know, you're uh, your ethnic background has this connection to uh, historically to nazi germany and you your ancestors had a connection to that and According to her thinking you should you should hate them for that so If you were to say look as as someone who's a jew

I understand what that oppression looks like because my family was impacted by that the immediate response that she brings up is well

What you have to understand andrew is at some point jews became unto to seen as white and you don't have to it's not

The issue that you have a jewish background that you would understand oppression. You've you've become white

And so what she does is she'll take a the historical um legal cases

That talk about how supreme court's, you know justices determined What what groups were what what ethnicities and she goes what and you have white men deciding who's white?

There was a massive amount of context lacking. I mean huge legal arguments to get to that point

All gone, not even discussed not even hinted at just said here's white men deciding who's white

That that is a massive pull that is the jimmy hates me and says i'm a bad person heart tug

And then every anecdote that she loves to use from her diversity training classes is almost exclusively

Without context she'll talk about how she's talking about to these people about you know, you're you know

This is racism. This is this this is that and the discussion will break out in a group exercise or something and it's almost always

Some poor gal. I don't know what it is about white women. She has a problem with but it's always some poor gal that breaks down and is upset because she's been you know, she's she's

Everybody's attacking me and i'm not this and that person leaves and now well now the whole focus is on this white woman

And we've lost everything Except that there's no discussion of what the conversation was that got her there

Nobody says she doesn't say what anybody says of her. She doesn't say what anybody uh what the conversation was

And then she uses another one. I thought was just insidious that same scenario Here's a white woman who's in a meeting and she gets upset because she feels like nobody's listening to her

Everybody's attacking her and she rushes out and then And everybody feels bad and apologizes to her and then in another scenario a

Black woman is sitting in a meeting listening to her peers and asked for court clarifying questions And later she's pulled aside by her supervisor and said people felt like you were attacking them

That is a heart tugger that is a grabber that is to make you feel bad Why because the white woman was clearly irrational and the black woman was clearly calm and didn't have any reason yet again

No discussion About what was actually said Andrew if I came to you and I calmly asked you have you stopped beating your wife yet?

I i'm just asking for clarification. I i'm not sure if I understand. Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Andrew you would never naturally get upset and you would actually later tell me why are you making such insinuations of me?

There's a context that would make it understandable. We don't know what the question is Maybe maybe these scenarios were irrational versus rational

But we don't know because d 'angelo doesn't tell you So it is a massive manipulation of your emotions because you are always left without the details that make it specific enough

For you to understand why things happened. Maybe she's right. Maybe those scenarios were examples of racism.

Maybe they were irrational reactions Maybe it was white men, you know deciding hey, we're going to be conspiratorial and say we know what's white

But there's nothing discussed about the details. So, how do you determine it? She's manipulating the reader into a predetermined outcome

So that is what I mean by the the lack of context and the emotional manipulation if you don't provide the details

Somebody can't draw a proper conclusion and that's how you drag somebody to your predetermined location.

It is massively manipulative Well, then let's talk about this the the last point in the time that we have left the

Ethnic gnosticism first for folks who may not know define what gnosticism is and then how you use it in this case essentially the gnostics were uh heretics that the early church had to to contend with And often what they would say is we have a special knowledge.

We know certain things for example gnostics would claim that One one particular teaching was jesus was purely spirit and he only appeared to be flesh

So, you know because they had a belief that flesh was inherently sinful and spirit was not So you had to adhere to the gnostics teaching to gain this knowledge.

You could never attain it by yourself You couldn't just go to the word of god. You couldn't listen to the apostles teaching you had to go to the gnostics

They have a special knowledge and I want to say it was vody balkan that came up with the term ethnic gnosticism what ethnic gnosticism essentially teaches is

There are groups of people by their ethnicity that have special knowledge

Sometimes people refer and and this can be either for ethnicism or it can be for gender but sometimes you hear it referred to as standpoint epistemology that you have a special knowledge because you

As a particular group of people have gone through oppression and because of that you actually have more and greater knowledge than the oppressor

Because the oppressor doesn't know what it means to be oppressed. The oppressor doesn't know what it means to have Your life experiences rejected or uh, you know, it doesn't know what it means to have to have lived under that so you you have a broader knowledge and so Again, I think it was vody that came up with the term ethnic gnosticism that essentially says and and she teaches this in her book

So i'm not mischaracterizing this that the black indigenous people of color have a special knowledge of racism because Of hundreds of years of oppression and that that and again,

I am not misquoting her I'm not misrepresenting her if you doubt this go read the book. I know some people are gonna say.

Oh, no, you're not understanding Yes, I do understand. I read this. I have a headache from it. Yes. I read this book She is saying by default

If you are a black person, for example, you know what racism is because it's built into essentially your dna your family your ancestors your your community for Generations have been oppressed have been enslaved have been kept down.

And so therefore You know what something and when you feel something is racist if you're a black person, you know, it's racist

There is no way to argue around this and she makes that explicitly clear

It is she says this multiple times. It is not the intent of what you said or did It is the impact that is important.

And if a black person of a person of color Indigenous, whatever if they feel that you were being offensive

You were being oppressive if you said or did something that was hurtful in their eyes

There is no questioning of this They know what it is. They have that special knowledge.

You don't have it. You're a white person You are a benefit. You're a beneficiary of white privilege. You have do you lack this knowledge?

And so you can never be able to say my intent was because it doesn't matter the person receiving it

The person of color says that was racist and you have to accept it. You cannot deny it

You cannot explain it away You cannot bring context into it because then you are reasserting your white fragility and your white dominance and by the way

For clarification. She does not define white fragility as some sort of weakness It is actually as she puts it kind of an insidious conspiratorial effort to reassert white dominance

Yeah, so when you react negatively to being called a racist you're not being weak or scared

You're that's not what she means by fragile. She means you are reacting in a conspiratorial effort to reassert white solidarity please understand that so when she says any person that Uh, you know tries to explain or bring context to what was said or why it was said

It doesn't matter. You've just reasserted your white dominance. That person has special knowledge. That person cannot be wrong.

You are always in the wrong So what if I said Well, let me just say this real quick what would she do

I wonder if I said I have special knowledge My special knowledge says you're wrong and it comes from a source that not only cannot lie but knows

Everything that there is to be known She'd reject you and she'd say you were being fragile.

Yeah, exactly, right But isn't that the problem we actually can say she's wrong not because we think she's wrong

But because the god of the universe that created everything Says she's wrong

Exactly bud. What were you gonna say? No, I was just gonna say that You know, she's got this presuppositional template that is born out of pure economic marxism now applied broadly across This particular hot topic issue, but one of the things when

I got done reading this i'm thinking you know What she could take that template and write a book called male fragility or cisgendered

Fragility or I mean you can take this thing and apply it to any one of these intersectional don't give her ideas but i'm telling you so This is how broad this thing is and the one other thing.

I wanted to question chris to get your your quick comment on was To indicate how broad this is

How pervasive this uh systemic racism, uh that she's touting she wrote

This the romanticized Traditional family values of the past are also racially problematic

I mean, this is an attack on the family much less. We know it's an attack on the gospel But this is a very fundamental building block of society and it's a racist entity

Well, it has to be because the the white, you know, the white norm is if that's what they want to call it

Is the nuclear family? When we look at Andrew mentioned this earlier the disparity between a family where the parents are there

They're they're involved in the education. They're providing meals. They're providing comfort and correction

That is traditionally seen When we're talking about it from a racial lens as kind of like the white norm.

It's the 1950s ozzy and harriet leave it to beaver picture and when we when we point to the fact that studies show that actually should create a

A basis for successful lives for the children and then we point to the fact that absence of family

Parents working multiple jobs fathers not being there Uh children raising themselves And how that's negative.

What do we typically see that as? We see that in The slums we see that in the inner city we see and who occupies those places.

Yeah black indigenous people of color so It you know in order to in my opinion in order to justify

Why? The the white supremacist system is the bad system And the person of color system is is the superior one really is what it's saying

You have to attack that foundation you have to go after the family because the you know, the understanding of how a children's grow and develop healthy emotional

Uh connections and strong families and you know, and they're set up for success You have to tear that down because that is a white supremacist system

And you have to elevate the idea that you don't need that family background

You don't need that family dynamic because you could be successful without it and so that's why she's calling it a racist system because it is seen as It is seen as the norm in the white culture.

It is not seen as the norm and say the inner city culture And so when I hear her say that that's what i'm picturing her attacking

It takes a village exactly Yeah, you you can't have you can't stand independently

You can't be and that's one of the biggest problems with this book, by the way she Always attaches you to a group.

You do not get to she eschews the idea of independence She eschews the idea of meritocracy

You are not an individual You are part of your group and you bring your group with you when you bring your group's history with you

And so she absolutely has to tear that down You know because if if there's any card left standing

In her house of cards that could potentially go after what she says She's got to knock it down.

And so the idea of the the family unit, which is a biblical concept She's got to tear that down.

Yeah And not only does she get to put you into that category she gets to define

The category as well. Yes, so it makes it convenient. I mean Realistically folks we've just touched the surface of this.

Oh my goodness. Yeah There's so much more that could be said. I know chris you've gotten tired of talking about on your show

I think our listeners got tired of hearing it. Yeah, you know it It is something we we have to deal with.

I mean Yes, it's it's not going to go away um, no and that's that's absolutely true and just for One thing that i've been trying to kind of hammer out when

I talk about this with some people a lot of folks say well, you know, like after the election this won't be a big deal or Eventually or eventually this thing's going to collapse in on itself and I agree it will

Here's the thing Everybody remember the emergent church the emergent church Brought.

Oh, we're just asking questions and and utterly destroyed The idea that you could believe the bible that it was sufficient that it was an errant

Utterly attempted to destroy that now it collapsed in on itself But what did it do it spread the seeds of doubt of the word of god and look what we're dealing with today

We've got people saying you have to bring critical race theory in because the bible isn't sufficient If if we think that this isn't going to have a lasting impact for generations, we're fooling ourselves

Yes, I believe this thing will Eventually collapsing on itself, but I believe it will do a great amount of damage to the to people

I believe it will do damage to western culture and I believe the church will be greatly impacted And we know that because look what happened with the sbc and resolution nine nine

They did not know what it was. They as as tom buck and tom askell said they trusted the committee

Because they didn't know what it was now. We're starting to see the picture, but the damage is being done So it's important that we discuss it and understand it

I don't believe every one of us have to gouge our eyes out with rusty nails and read this nonsense to do it

But I feel but that's why we have you Thank you. I really appreciate that Um don't mind being thrown to the wolves.

Um But it's good to spend some time at least finding people who do know what it is

And be willing to interact with it As it what it actually is not because we make a really bad mistake andrew and I wish we would get this

Understand this we assert only our definition and we apply it to theirs

And we get beat up and we can't figure out why and it's because we're not we're not playing

We're not reading the rule book And if we don't at least understand and operating knowledge, we're going to get beat up every time we get into this conversation

Yeah Yeah, because they're constantly it's a they're constantly changing the the definitions. It's a moving goalpost.

So exactly you're dealing Many of the christians are trying to argue this are trying to argue a definition of racism.

That's 30 40 years old Exactly, and that's not the definition. That's why they can't be racist because it has nothing to do with Color of skin anymore.

It has to do with economic class of a whole group of people Not you as an individual

But the whole group so I think that uh, this is something we could we could keep going for hours on not that You guys that are listening want to hear this for hours because I think you're probably already wanting to pull your eyeballs out but um

You know the the chris we appreciate you coming on folks If you have if you don't listen to voice some reason radio want to encourage you to go do that go subscribe to that Listen to their back episodes where chris goes into details on these sort of things

This is the sort of content you're going to get on voice of reason radio So you you realize now that's some good high quality content go check them out

Chris, we appreciate you coming on any anything you want to plug anything You want to say before you leave?

Maybe you got a new book coming out. I don't know A no, no, no, no books.

I I would have to be a lot more dedicated to and and disciplined with my time Um, I just want to thank you number one for having having me on I greatly appreciate it andrew.

Um I'm gonna embarrass you. I appreciate you uh All that you've done for uh myself and rich For making people aware of the show and and and for bringing my wife and I out to the cruciform conference.

That was a blessing Uh folks that that was his doing Um got to finally meet your wife. Come on She's she's definitely the better half.

She's absolutely the better half. Um, but I I want to say to everybody who does listen and does interact with what rich and I do you guys are precious to us

Okay, we're not we're not the biggest program out there and I don't think that's god's design for us We're talking to a certain number of people praise god for that um

The fact that people listen we are so grateful for uh, we don't have a program if people don't listen We'd be just talking to ourselves which we could probably do and have a lot of fun

But you guys make it enjoyable for us to do that. And so thank you uh, and andrew making allowing us to be part of christian podcast community, that's a blessing and and uh

I just want to thank ask people to consider Checking out slave to the king .com. I'm trying to be more proactive about putting written content up on there rich and I Over the last year and a half have really tried to be consistent

About putting content up there every week as far as the podcast goes Um, you can always find every show we put up there occasion

We've been doing this for four and a half years and some of you still go you can have a podcast But We've got enough content now that if we can't make something and please understand rich is uh, he's he's disabled

He's wheelchair bound. So there are times when we're not able to because of his health reasons um work related issues or family issues sometimes take me away, so Or you know went to chris form conference and you know didn't have all my recording equipment.

So Or the fact that neither of you could figure out technology sometimes Hey, I don't know what happened with that with the internet gremlins and all kinds of things

Well, there's then there's you with your infiltration of my house by your own admission. Um, Okay, we're gonna have to find out which episode that was

But now that you bring that up you you got to tell the story of that one because that was a hilarious episode

And I didn't know what I was getting myself into Completely clueless until I heard the podcast.

Yeah, it was absolutely hysterical It's one of those moments where I think you know just shows that god has a sense of humor and god is completely set

So there's no coincidences but rich and I are recording a show and we're doing our typical harassment of andrew and um

I forget what it was that we were talking about But we were posting something online as we're dealing with issues that the internet, you know, we're having internet connection issues or something

And i'm saying well, it's probably and we're recording this and i'm saying well, it's probably andrew's fault He's probably done something to my computer.

He's probably sitting at home right now doing this As we're recording and saying this andrew has

There was something else that you had said In that first one also you said he probably has a camera

Probably has a camera watching us knowing this and he's probably doing this as we're saying this and he's

Andrew at the same moment is looking at my stuff online from twitter and is responding with the comment

Well, that's because I have a camera in your house and i'm microphone and i'm watching what you're doing At the moment we said and rich and I lost it.

We just went completely nuts We're dying laughing i'm reading this on the air. Andrew has no clue

No clue what's going on? And when he the reason I have no clue is it's being recorded, you know, you guys don't do it live

It's recorded in place there So I don't know till like a couple days later that my typing this in was you already made a comment about it on the show

It was the timing could not have been i'm telling you we did not plan this andrew had no clue

It literally was I think that's just one of those moments god says i'm gonna let somebody have a little bit of fun with this

Because that nothing is coincidental So yeah, it was So we like to blame andrew, but yes, we have

We look we we are we are the bargain basement podcast Okay, everything

I have is because other people were gracious to send stuff to us The most expensive thing I have is my macbook

I don't work a job that creates lots of revenue for me Okay, so everything I have was donated

And I got it dialed in and I don't mess with it because i'm afraid i'm gonna break something

I I I have a limited understanding of technology I have enough to get by and not blow up the computer and that's it

And I wish I could get my family to understand i'm not it Please don't call me when I'm at work and ask me to fix your phone.

I don't know how to do that But so We we are grateful because people still tune in we're grateful because they listen and if you're if you think that You would like to have a podcast to listen to where it's just christians talking together

And working through issues together. That's what rich and I try to do We really just try to make this a conversation.

There are some really Seriously smart brethren out there rich and I are not those but We are

The average lay christian and we're trying like the rest of you to work through some of these issues

And we hope that our conversation gives people An impetus to go to the word of god because We always tell people don't trust us because we said it.

In fact, don't trust me because I wrote a review on this book um Just because I have you know, i've done this you still need to do some work for yourself

Don't take it as gospel because chris said it. Please don't do that. But Go to the word of god.

That's what we want people to do We try to encourage people to do that And so we if you think that that's a podcast that you could benefit from we'd ask you to tune in and and listen to it

And whatever you do though, never let any of these podcasts Andrew's mine or anybody else's christian podcast can be ever supplement

Your participation in local church. You got to be part of a local church You got to have elders who are feeding and praying over you and working hard.

So that that is your primary source of instruction We just hope at best to be a tertiary component where you're learned

You're just learning something or thinking about something that you're going. Oh that yeah that okay Yeah, I see where they're going with that or you know, i'm not sure

I agree, but let me look into that That's what we're hoping we can do with this podcast. So we're so grateful for and andrew

We really appreciate all that you do to make um this podcast be known and get that information out there

Well, thanks. And uh, so bud you have anything else you want to add before chris? Thank you very much enjoyed this

Hope we can do it again Yeah, absolutely. I'm thrilled to to come on and have these kind of discussions anytime

Anytime you guys want to do this just give me a holler well, we appreciate it chris, we appreciate all the work you do in the podcast and You know what bud?

Yes, what that's a wrap Hey what happened to the there we go the christian podcast community

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