White Fragility with Chris Hohnholz

Okay, you're gonna have to you're gonna have to do the whole podcast. Dress like that. Run your music. That's great. Oh, this is gonna make great for the video. All right.

I was not I was not.

Pre-Show Banter and On-Air Teasing

Okay, folks, I'm just gonna start off by telling you anything and I mean anything can happen today on this podcast just saying.

Come to the rap report with your host Andrew Rappaport where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church.

Go to striving for eternity.

Okay, bud what in the world were we thinking. I Was just following your lead, sir. I just I don't know now for any of the patreons they're gonna they're gonna want us to make sure that they they watched what the pre-show just a little bit of the clip of before we started recording.

For the patreons, you'll get to see our guest Conducting music. We'll just we'll say that we'll say that I can't say how what the attire was. I will say there was a superhero conducting music. I'll at least say that much but apart from that.

And I will admit it was very entertaining. I should have received the record button much earlier, correct, but yes. But We're we're gonna be blessed today to talk about a horrible topic that's really sounded weird.

No, we're blessed by our guest. Not so much by the topic. But we've we've announced this for two weeks. Now. We have an award-winning Podcaster with us today. He is half of the voice of reason radio and it is none other than Chris Han holds so Chris welcome to the rap report.

Thank you, brother.

Introducing Chris Hohnholz and Voice of Reason Radio

I appreciate you being on and it just to make it clear I'm the lesser half because rich is really much the better half of the show. Just saying.

Well, well that might be but you know, it is something that the chemistry you guys have on that show just works very well. It is kind of fun where it's like the first five minutes is some banter and then it's it's always the fun experiment to see.

Okay, how is rich gonna transition from the banter to the subject, you know, so it's it's always it's always fun to see. Yeah, that's gonna happen. But he does a good job. He does so but you've recently Wrote a book review and folks.

I'll have all the links in the show notes. But this is a book review that you had done on a book. You were you were so excited to read. Is that correct?

About as excited as cutting my eyeballs open with rusty with rusty razor blades. Yes. That's about how excited I was to read it.

Yeah, yeah, and that's why we're saying we're really glad that you're here, but the subject itself maybe not so much but it's necessary. It's necessary so you're. You know before we get into the book review Which is gonna be a slave to the king calm This is I'm trying to think how best to word the book I Mean, I think the subtitle is gonna really tell you enough.

But white fragility is the subtitle is why it's so hard for white people to talk about racism. Is you know, I almost feel like the response that is Because black people do it all the time. Is that is that we're supposed to understand I mean.

But let us first start because I don't I'm I'd be shocked if people in my audience don't know who you are and And don't listen to voice a reason radio, but just in case introduce yourself let folks know a little bit about yourself and You know what you what you do, you know your podcast what you guys do you know what you do for fun and Activities outside of you know your day job, you know, I don't know anything you want.

Oh.

Okay. Well as Andrew said, my name is Chris Han Holtz. I am one half of the host Team of voice of reason radio, which is a podcast that myself and Richard story I've been putting on for about a little over four and a half years now and it is a extension of our site slave to the king comm which kind of started as a Just a personal blog quite a while ago.

And we've been doing that for about four and a half years. The whole point of voice and reason radio is that there is only one true voice of reason and that's the Word of God. Anything outside of that is us bring trying to bring the world's ideas in Rather than looking through the Word of God at the world and then trying to understand how we should then live.

So we have to filter everything through the Word of God. It is simply a podcast with two individuals rich and myself who live literally two time zones away from each other. I'm on the west coast and near Reno, Nevada riches in Mississippi and You made mention of the fact we have this great banter and great grant chemistry.

That thing that I think always cracks people up is they don't realize rich and I have never met face to face and we've known Each other for nearly seven years. We've been doing this for four and a half years it's basically a program of two Christians who just love the Lord love his word and try to talk about a variety of topics together and Kind of like a just a conversation between brethren and you get to be part of that.

And so that's what we've done and that's what we try to do with it. We have two stated goals. Number one is to glorify God and number two is to edify the Saints. That's what we hope to accomplish each and every show and God has been gracious to us that we have a small audience that's been faithful and shares the program and we're now part of Christian podcast community as of earlier this year and We're grateful to be a part of that and be part of a Network of podcasts that are trying to simply glorify God with the platform available.

Myself, I'm a husband of 19 years just as of the 27th. So little just under a week ago. We have my wife Christine is just a wonderful treasure who has constantly been there for me through thick and thin.

We have two teenage boys that we homeschool and I'm looking forward very forward to retirement for my current The current employment and hopefully one day to continue to do this type of stuff long term as as something that if God is so wills, I'll be able to do that and It's just I'm a member of community Bible Church of Reno, Nevada.

I have three wonderful pastors who who should faithfully shepherd over us each and every week who pour their heart into understanding the word and proclaiming it and building up the Saints and equipping them and They they've just been a blessing and they they know about what I do and they're supportive of it.

And it's it's blessing to to be in that kind of environment. So that's kind of me in a in a real tight nutshell.

Yeah, and you know before you joined with Christian podcast community you were awarded with the best episode of the year last year. On the one you did on help. On help pastors. I'm drowning.

That. That was a major honor. Thank you.

Yeah, and it was deserved and and I mean I've I've said this before and for folks who don't listen to voice the reason radio The I put this up as one of the top podcasts that are out there and and it's it's it really is amazing that the amount of content in detail that you guys get into and discuss is.

Especially when You know, neither of you are in ministry full-time You know. It's just it's just really neat to see a lot of good content there. So I do want to encourage you guys to to do that. You know, can I can I really get away without playing at least a clip of your co-hosts?

Let's see. I have I have so many here, but rich. This is not my fault.

This is probably my favorite clip from and you know see because you guys don't edit I could tell because. You have this sometimes said.

We're not trained professionals. I tell people don't try this at home because.

Sometimes you get you get this and this this is a gem from your co-host.

Well before and I still stick to it now over the last 10 years off and on when it comes to ministry. Versus boxing. Boxing is far less violence.

And he is right and I think that really plays into a lot of how you know when you started your podcast. You you had you and rich have been podcasting actually for a while longer than voice a reason but you got out of it for a while and What was interesting you guys had gotten back in in the early episodes.

What what ended up happening was. You you guys were starting out saying look we wanted to have a voice of reason being God's Word. You you're kind of fed up with nonsense, he saw on social media of Christians and you know the poor behavior of Christians and I think that that was really what started I think your your podcast early on and Now it's just kept growing and continuing.

And the blog site as well. So we appreciate your work. Oh, and I appreciate that. You're right. Our hope was net we we never wanted to be and it was kind of funny because I actually got somebody called me a discernment Podcaster this week I go figure.

Yeah, that was that was a fun comment but That was one of the things we wanted to avoid is There's a lot we can discuss as Christians and we're gonna have different perspectives. None of us have this wrap so tight that we've got every single detail dialed in so every Every time we speak there's a chance we're gonna say or do something wrong.

We may hold a position that's wrong. We may hold a position that isn't biblical, but we can Interact and discuss these issues without beating the living snot out of each other. Which oftentimes is what happens on social media and a lot of social media platforms such as podcasts and blogs and other forms Often become exactly that and so we've always hoped to Be able to model that you can do this kind of platform.

You can do blog podcasting. You can do blogging you can stand firm you can be passionate. But you can still try to strive to understand that there are others who hold a position that you don't That you're going to have to learn it is that even if they disagree with you that may not make them the enemy that may Not make them a false teacher and they may be somebody who's simply wrong or maybe you're wrong and you don't see it.

And so we have to learn to to work together in that regard. So even when we're talking about contradictory Theological issues we've always tried. I'm not saying we've ever done it perfectly. But we've always tried to at least be fair and how we represented somebody else and so That's what we hope that our program does is that it encourages other?

Christians when you talk about these issues number one you go to the Word of God. That is your lens. That is your filter. You don't have Opportunities anything else? That's what you go to and then you do so that even if it's to be firm and to be passionate You're still doing that with love in your eyes and care for in your heart for someone else who is a brother in Christ.

So, let's let's get into a topic for tonight. This book review you had done Is as anyone who's listened to your Podcast knows you've been talking about this for a while. It's you've been working through it very slowly.

Not because you read slowly. But more because you you were trying to resist maybe reserve what little hair you had left. I Mean, I'm I'm just saying as a listener to the podcast. I heard you go through in this.

So, why did you choose this book to discuss to do a review on? So first why this book before we get into the content of it?

Why White Fragility Became a Necessary Book to Review

Well, it was one of several books that I wanted to look at and the simple fact is I had people ask me why why on earth are you reading these books and I'll simply put it this way. Well, one of my One of the people that I look Very respectfully toward is dr. James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and one of the things I he does whenever he's dealing with any topic is He will let the other side speak for themselves.

He will address what the person has said in context and I Believe that's a valuable tool because it helps us not build straw man arguments that we can easily misrepresent even if we're trying to be faithful to the Word of God, so as this topic of critical race theory.

Intersectionality systemic racism continues to build and continues to become more and more the norm in our in our country. It's one of those conversations that rich and I have needed to discuss on the show so finally after listening to people like, you know, Daryl Harrison and Virgil walk over just thinking and reading watching the Synodoc by what standard that founders put together and reading the book that went with it.

I Began to realize it would be necessary for myself to do just like what dr White says you go to the sources you go to the original sources. And so white fragility was one of those books that it is it's not an unknown book.

You're going you walk into any particular Store that has books whether it's a Walmart a Target a Barnes and Noble who goes to bookstores anymore. But anywhere you go you're going to find this book and it's even being used.

I believe it was in Please don't please don't hate me if I get the city wrong, but I think it was Seattle, Washington. That had a diversity training course. This was their go-to training manual and it was like, okay this is an important book and The funny thing about it is you read the subtitle why it's so hard for white people to talk about racism.

Here's the thing Robin D 'Angelo the author is a white woman. So this is a white woman telling us as white, you know white readers and that's who it's Gary geared for. We don't know how to talk about racism.

So I knew I was going to have to read this and like you said, um, it was much it was slow. It was hard to read. I think it was Samuel say who first reviewed it out of the people that we know and He talked about wanting to have surgery without it without anesthetic to ever have to rather than ever have to read this book again and So I knew it was going to be painful.

So I grabbed my pen I sat down and with every page that went by I couldn't go more than two. Maybe three paragraphs without writing notes highlighting underlining whatever and that's why it took so very long because If you can read this book in a very it's about 150 pages you could read it in a couple of days if you wanted to but if you're reading it with any thought sort of critical thinking.

You're gonna have to slow down. Because there's a lot there and a lot of assumption a lot of presuppositions a lot of bias built into it. And there is no critical thinking allowed. So if you don't do that if you don't take that time.

You're gonna it's it's like getting beaten over the head with a baseball bat over and over you're finally just going to capitulate and that's what this book does and I was I Knew I was gonna have to do that if I wanted to be able to articulate.

What critical race theory talks about why the idea of systemic racism is anti-biblical why as Christians? We need to understand these things because they're using definitions that we don't use and if you don't go to their books and their resources.

You're going to run the risk of creating straw men and wrongly handling the the material.

Critical Race Theory, Marxism, and the Endgame of Power

Well, let's get into this the book itself. Because this is I mean you laid out the case of why this book becomes important. We know this is an issue that is affecting the church. You've dealt with this on voice of reason radio.

We've dealt with here on the rap report. We've dealt with it on apologetics live. So the issue is is something that is not going to go away especially now that we have unfortunately, well-known Christian pastors who are now I don't know giving up the Bible for the sake of a platform.

I just don't get it but they're they're deciding they're gonna go woke and they're going to you know, start teaching that you know, the America is systemically racist. Which if it really is? Then there really is no choice, right?

I mean if America really is systemically racist then you can't change it. So there's no need for a book like this. Right. The only thing we should do is, you know, just basically Pay all those that are black to move back to Africa and say we're sorry.

We brought you here, right? Because they say that we're the cause even though we didn't own slaves, right so. And forgetting the fact that it was, you know Africans that kidnapped Africans and sold them as slaves before the You know whites were doing it.

So, you know, it's just it's it's. All this stuff when they say it's systemic that it can't change. Then you really they're there what's the purpose of going on with this because there is no. There's no solution to it.

Let me give you a James Cohn quote. You see you read this I've I ended up reading Black theology black power from James Cohn who's really the father of black liberation theology. But he goes he says black hatred is the black man strong strong aversion to white society.

No, no black man living in white America can escape it. Well, right. Like I mean my thinking is if there's no way to escape it then there's no solution to it.

So why write the book? This is the critical thinking you were referring to right. Well and and the sad part about it is the purpose of writing those books isn't Really to address. Hey, there's racism and we need to Actual figure out what's going on and why etc.

It's actually about Destroying power structures. That's what the whole books are about, you know, and D 'Angelo makes this case in her book and I know others do as well that Because the system is you know The the nation is systemically racist the only way you can resolve that is by destroying the existing power structures and changing them and then if you do that, then you can change the who's in power who's oppressing who's not oppressed and Therefore then you bring about this utopian equality.

So the purpose of writing these books isn't about critical thinking. It's not about okay, how do we actually address the sin of racism which there are there is racism that's that anybody who says that if you deny systemic racism, you're denying racism is is is Plain word games and so as a Christian we recognize that the Bible says to have untrust hatred of anyone is Sinful and if you have unjust hatred of someone on the basis of their ethnicity, we know what that is In secular terminology, that's racism.

So we acknowledge that racism exists. What we dispute is the definitions that the critical race theorist brings to the to the table. The critical race theorist isn't going to allow you to change to challenge those definitions and that's what this book is about.

It's about preventing you from actually challenging critical race theory as a whole and it's going to paint you into a corner to where you only have one option and that's challenging the existing power structures.

And so clearly. And we're there's no way to get around this. We're gonna be talking about Marxism Socialism. So has and that's really the underlying thing here. It has has this this idea of breaking down social structures.

You think this has ever happened before or been used as an argument in history, maybe yeah.

Karl Marx. Oh, yeah.

So, I mean when I see the book like this and I see the review you had. The question I always ask what this stuff is. What's the endgame?

Yeah, the endgame is very clear. The endgame is that It is the toppling of Western culture. It is the it is the establishment of a new power structure that the ruling elite will. Then they'll discard everything else.

And It's what socialism and communism has always done. You'll you will establish ruling. And really you you put the haves and have-nots at odds with One another. You create a conflict you create a revolution.

The ruling elites come in. They take control and then we're all equal before.

Racism, Anti-Racism, and the Redefinition of Injustice

Yeah, and that's the thing that is amazed. I'm always amazed with is that people think that somehow Human beings given lots of control and power over their human beings. It's gonna create a utopia. And yet every time it's been tried it the people who are fighting today For this justice that they say that you know to overcome the the oppression they feel In a few years when they get their way, they're gonna be on the streets, you know begging for food.

This is the consistent pattern. We I mean Venezuela didn't take very long to go from being a top producing country to Having restrictions on their use of electricity and begging for food in the streets killing one another in the streets now for bread.

It doesn't take long and and when you look at this You have to go. Well, what is the the end goal of this? The end goal for many unfortunately, I think is a black supremacy. And that really doesn't solve the problem it actually continues it.

I mean, I've said this many times. The only way to end racism is by ending all racism. Yeah, you can't end it by saying we're gonna make up for one injustice with another injustice. All that creates is more hatred.

Right. Yeah, and the problem with it is the definition of injustice changes. So you and I would recognize that anybody who looks at another person? With a certain skin color and says I hate you for your skin color and I'm going to oppress you and I'm gonna make sure.

You can't get By your own merit to move forward and to and to be successful. We would recognize that is unjust that is unbiblical that is a sin. However, as D 'Angelo points out in this book that can only be one-sided.

There's only one way that anybody that that kind of oppression exists and that is because this system was built by White racist slave owners, so only they hold that power. And so anybody fighting back against them.

It's essentially they're a freedom fighter. Essentially. You're you're rebelling against and and fighting back against the oppression. So therefore your reaction is justified. That's why when you hear of the riots in the streets and there are evangelical leaders who go Okay, the riots are bad, but we need to understand why that's the language of critical race theory that is saying there is a justification.

That we can dismiss sinful behavior by saying years of oppression, uh, you know, uh, Racism is systemic all of that and therefore it's justifiable. So that's the problem. It's the definitions are not biblical.

The definitions are worldly and uh sociological and marxist in nature. So you cannot actually Uh, you know get around it if you if you don't recognize what it is you're dealing with which is a changing of the words.

Yeah, it's a classic Post-modern technique. I mean, this is what you see. Across academia you see it culturally you see it socially where we are using familiar phrases familiar words. But we're putting new meaning to it and just I read this book as well chris and one of the things she tacitly says.

Uh quote people of color May also hold prejudices and discriminate against white people. But they lack the social and institutional power. That transforms their prejudice and discrimination into racism.

The impact of their prejudice on whites is temporary and contextual. When I say that only whites can be racist I mean that in the united states only whites have the collective social and institutional power and privilege over people of color.

People of color do not have this power and privilege over white people. It's exactly what you're saying. It is with regards to The system and they're not looking for equity of opportunity. They are looking for an inversion of authority and oppression and and control.

You know, absolutely and that I recall that passage and the interesting thing about that passage is Understand when we we used to define racism as as she puts it like an intentional directed act at someone.

On the basis of their race, right? That's how we always understood it issues of bias and Discrimination. We're kind of your broad topic. That's how we if you know discrimination is is basically saying, you know, I choose one thing over another.

It's like i'm i'm choosing taco bell over mcdonald's. I discriminate it against mcdonald's. There's good ways and bad ways. We discriminate. So in a negative way of discriminating if I say that, you know, uh, you know bud has uh, This this hat that I think is ugly and terrible and i'm going to mistreat him on the basis of that hat I've chosen to treat someone who's in the image creating the image and likeness of god in a poor manner.

I've made that choice on the basis of something ridiculous. Just on the basis of the hat that he's wearing. So that that's a negative form of discrimination and that was the broad way we would understand discrimination.

And then we would make it more refined and we would say look if I mistreat someone on the basis of their sex I was sexist if I mistreat someone on the basis of their ethnicity. I was I was racist if I do it on religion.

It was you know, it was a form of Discrimination that was religious based. So she takes that Term racism and plucks it out from being a a refined understanding of Of a particular form of discrimination and she puts it above and she says now it's something different.

It's a system. And she repeatedly states throughout the course of the book Racism is a system not an act. It's not even and they take it they've taken that out. They've given it its own meaning and they've put it up above everything else and now Racism is what drives everything and discrimination is an underlying component of systemic racism.

Yeah.

And this is where in our culture we're starting to see a change where. They're they're having a different term. So you have racism and fighting racism. And it's interesting because they recognize people are recognizing what racism historically has always been.

As as you just explained right? You're you treat someone based on the color of their skin or something like that and. The the idea of racism isn't enough now it's now you have to be actively fighting against.

Something that they also say you can't control you you can't do anything to stop it, which it's like it's to someone that uses critical thinking. It's like your mind just blows up right. Because. How you're you're you're telling us we have to change and at the same time telling us there's nothing we could do to change.

Well, that's that's probably I think one of the more insidious parts of this book. Is that you are put instantly on a treadmill that you can never get off of? Yeah, the the thing with the problem with the the the racism versus anti-racism is that there is no neutral position allowed if you are someone who is white and you're born into american culture, you are by de facto racist because.

You are participating in a system that has elevated you and benefited you now. You may not you may look at your life and go I don't think i've had a very great life. But by the very fact that you are white you are not dealing with the oppression.

That a black person deals with so therefore you have a benefit you have. A privilege that has somehow even in a small way you've benefited from so the second you say No, I haven't. You are exhibiting as she terms it white fragility.

You are. And one of the the things one of the more annoying uh points of the book was when She and you'll have to forgive me. I forget who the the person she quotes but she basically cites an example where an individual says To say that you didn't know you were racist and that you were part of a white privilege system.

It's kind of like walking down the street. And people are stuffing money into your pocket that you never asked for never wanted but it's being received by you and you're benefiting from. Therefore so the the insinuation well, I won't even say insinuation the direct correlation is, you know.

As a white person, you know, you've benefited from your position in society. And so the only position you can take that's not racist is to be anti-racist. You have to work against and you have to give up your place of privilege you have to Elevate those who are persons of color who are black or indigenous.

You have to elevate them and you have to work to tear down the system that has benefited you. Otherwise even just saying i'm not going to partake of this i'm not going to act in this way. I'm not going to speak in this way.

I'm not going to affirm these things that is Insufficient because you are still existing in the system that benefits you so that's the problem with how this how Racism versus anti-racism is positive.

It is. It is you are immediately thrown into an oppressor class and you are not allowed out of it. And you may you'll you'll never really be allowed to be out of it. D 'angelo repeatedly states throughout her book She'll never not be racist.

She's a white woman teaching white people how to fight against racism. She says her of herself because she's a white woman. She'll never not be racist. So you're stuck in that oppressor class you can never get out of it.

But you have to dismantle the existing system for any hope for even the slightest amount of atonement.

The Presuppositions and Revisionist History Behind the Book

You know what I find interesting with the whole thinking here and what how you're just because bud read the book you read the book I read your book review so I. But The thing that amazes me Is when you take a step back and you you read books like this.

You know, i've read a bunch of james cone and you you read this. And you go wow, you know if if I was black i'd be insulted. But what these people are saying because they're not only saying that they've that blacks in america have been oppressed but They can't get out of the oppression without the permission of white people.

Yeah, absolutely. Right there you look at this and say well, they're they're still having a view Of blacks that are that's the meaning. Just sit there and say well, you can't do this on your own. We white people have to give up our white privilege for you to be able to get ahead because you can't do it without us.

So you're still that's still even in their Arguments that they're racist be in fact, i'm going to agree with her that she is racist. Um, because that's what she sees. She sees people by color. And that's racism.

She treats people different based on color Of skin when it's just a different amount of melanin. We're all we're all colored. Okay so the reality though is She is grouping people in by what she just determines is a race.

And based on that she's she's basically saying that certain people can't get ahead unless she convinces all of us white people to to Basically give up our privilege so that blacks can get ahead because they can't do it on their own.

I strongly disagree with that. And this is where you end up seeing the breakdown because what you end up seeing is there are plenty of blacks who get ahead. There's other reasons they're being oppressed and it doesn't have to do with The whiteness that they think it is which by the way the way they define whiteness is kind of interesting as well.

You know if you actually have a mother and a father that's whiteness. But then black lives matter wants to destroy the whole mother father thing because they don't want a nuclear family so it's like so they you know, these groups want to like Continue the very thing that's hurting their community and Yet they want to blame it on whiteness.

And then say that we somehow are going to air in the control and the power to get them to be out of an oppressed state. You know instead of looking at all the other factors that go into it because there's plenty of blacks that do much better than plenty of whites.

There's plenty of blacks who are smarter than plenty of whites. It has nothing to do with them being an oppression issue. Does have to do with. You know just the way that god's created us. It it does have to do with the fact of you know, our environment.

I mean very simple. You have someone who has mother father they're able to sit home and study and that education is really important and parents encourage doing homework and studying. Versus someone who is in a single mother home.

There the mother is working two maybe three jobs to try and make ends meet. She's not home for the kids. There's no one else at home for the kids the kid has to take care of himself fend for himself. There's no encouragement to do To do his homework.

There's no one watching him. You look at those two scenarios and In both those scenarios notice nothing about color. Maybe the first scenario is a black family and the other one's a white family but the reality is is that child that that is in that second scenario is Not going to have the same advantages when they get older as the as the one in the first family.

Has nothing to do with color right. So there's a lot of other factors people don't look into and yet, you know. What i'm guessing from her book when i've read from others like james cone. They put it as if it's still.

The blacks just can't do this without white help. Which I think is very belittling and the bigger issue I see as a christian is. And you've already hit on this chris. It gets away from the the reality that we are created in the image of god.

And and it's those attributes that we are that god has given to us that make us a human that we all share. And this is what gives us the ability to overcome things. The reality is. Every time i'm sure chris you've had adversity growing up bud as well.

What did that do that does one of two things typically? It either makes you stronger. Or makes you weaker. It's all how do you deal with adversity? If you start playing the victim. You're going to be weaker if you're going to look at that and say i'm going to you know I just listened to a podcast about sydney portier.