Daniel 2

Hey, what's up everybody.

Here again here to continue the conversation just with a different conversation.

So this is my other podcast that I host.

This is called trailer park theology and If you haven't ever lived in the trailer park,

I do not know what you're doing with your life.

Like I'm really struggling right now.

Now so so it's me and Braden we're here and I know I think I Before I end it I said that we

were going to be talking about Daniel chapter 9 but what we want to do is we want

to present Daniel chapter 2 and we want to show all the different beliefs

that's held on this and then maybe Take some questions and then next week.

We'll look at Daniel chapter 7 and then Daniel chapter 9.

We'll work our way To Matthew 24, we'll look at some Zachariah like we're just going to

focus right now for some eschatology conversations, but also we

have a another guy a pastor friend of Braden who represents the

Historical pre meal and so we're going to have him on here.

And so I will represent the post meal conversation Braden with his all meal

and Then we'll get Fancy -fancy and then we'll have him to represent the pre

meal and if anyone Offers still stands if anyone out there that hos a

dispensational pre meal.

They like to jump on and have a conversation with us please contact me and

would love to have you on as long as you are Respectful and we can joke

around and iron sharpen and iron type of a conversation.

All right, so we want to look at Daniel chapter 2 and Daniel chapter 2 we have

Nebuchadnezzar has a dream.

And so when he wakes up he's terror.

I'm not going to read it all.

You know, he wakes up he's he's kind of terrified and what he does is is he wants

someone To tell him the dream and it's interpretation.

So he doesn't want to tell someone his dream for them to give him in an interpretation he

wants them to tell him the dream and to give him the interpretation, which is

Humanly impossible like like this is something that we cannot do.

Whenever I wake up with a bad dream.

My wife doesn't say hey, let me tell you what you dreamed about.

Like I got something that's not in us so So the idea

is is is Nebuchadnezzar is asking for something impossible.

But the deal is he's his claim is is if the wise man the Chaldeans and

and all those who have you know I Don't want to name off the

I should have marked my spot in here that said it but but anyone that's a part of his Kingdom who is

wise if they can't tell him the dream and give him the interpretation.

He is going to put them to death.

Daniel hears about this.

And so he asks us for Time to where he could pray to God him Shadrach Meshach and

Abednego and then he would bring to Nebuchadnezzar The dream and its

interpretation so they pray they ask God God gives them the dream.

Daniel presents this dream To Nebuchadnezzar and

Braden's gonna read the interpretation.

Yeah.

So I'll just I'll just read verses 31 through 35 and I'm assuming we'll probably just jump in and Talk a little bit about the

following verses after that.

Is that right Jeff?

That sounds good.

Okay, cover that.

So I'll just read first 31 through 35 and it says in there Daniel chapter 2.

You Oh King were looking and behold There was a single great statue that

statue which was large and extraordinary Extraordinary splendor was standing in front of

you and it appearance was awesome.

The head of the statue was made of fine gold its breasts and its arms

of silver Its belly and its thighs of bronze its legs of iron its feet

partly of iron and partly of clay.

You continued to look or continued looking until a stone was cut out

without hands and It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and

crushed them.

Then the iron the clay the bronze the silver and the gold were crushed all at the

same time and Became like chaff from the summer threshing floor and the wind carried them away

So that not a trace of them was found but the stone that struck the statue came became a great

mountain and filled the whole earth.

All right.

Fine reading you got there.

What Bible version are you reading from?

That's the 77 NESB the 77.

Yeah, I love that version has the poetry in it.

It does it still carries some of that King James.

Sound to it but not.

Yeah, I like it better than the 95 personally.

I agree.

I agree.

Yeah, and I'm not hating on the 95 but you know, it is what it is.

I might be I might.

Sound like you're so there.

Yeah, so I got this little imagery right here this image notice.

I cut the the feet.

Yeah, I cut the feet off.

And I did that for a purpose.

Like I don't have the feet with me.

But but I was teaching a class and I had the feet to where you could see it but then I could

push move down on the feet and it would separate and it would have a list of what

The pre meal dispensationals believe that it takes place during this time.

Yeah, but but as you see in this list we see as whenever Daniel

speaking to Nebuchadnezzar.

He tells him that he is the head of goad.

He says Nebuchadnezzar you are the head of goad now.

We know that The head of goat is Nebuchadnezzar, but it also

Represents Babylon so the head of goad represents two things Nebuchadnezzar and

Babylon now that's going to be Good.

To know when you get to the the stone the chest of silver is the Medes and

Persian the media Persians the thighs of bronze is Grease

and the legs of iron is Rome now.

We know that this is without a doubt what it represents and then when we get into

chapter 7 we see that These Kingdoms

again, but they're represented as beast now

where I believe Interpretation of this text has broken and has not been

clear and I've mentioned this the last time that we talked briefly on Facebook.

Would be the feet the iron and clay.

Who what is the iron and what is the clay and I can remember as a premillennial

dispensational.

That was a question that I always had in my head if we could figure out who the

iron and who the clay is.

Then then we would know at what point The end will

come by, you know, because I had this idea.

You know because like in the premillennial dispensational system the reason why I had it cut off here at the

at the ankles is that we believe that that at the

ankles where the The feet would come into play the iron mingle with clay that this was a

parenthesis and so the feet would separate from the statue because they believe I

Believed at one time that the feet of iron mingle with clay was often our distant

future well.

As a premillennial believing that the Rapture could happen at any time.

That distant future could be at any moment.

We believe in the embassy of the of the Rapture.

I used to have a a License plate that said in case of Rapture this car would be

unmanned, you know, like.

Like it was serious, right.

So and so and so there's a statue that Nebuchadnezzar, you know, he he has a dream he sees

this in his vision.

And so I've always you know as a premillennial dispensational when I was that I always thought man if I

could just figure out The statue when it came to the the feet of iron mingle with

clay then we would know When the end would come.

Well, I was an idiot and I'm not calling other dispensational as idiots.

I'm telling you right now.

I was an idiot this consumed my life.

Well probably about three years ago.

Just reading the Bible.

I You know, I asked myself that again I came to this portion of scripture and I asked myself who is the

iron and clay and Listen man, all of a sudden it hit me and I'm not saying God spoke

to me.

Okay, that don't hear that but all of a sudden it hit me.

It's Jerusalem and.

And I had scripture to back it up.

Isaiah Jeremiah, they all say Pointing to God you are

the Potter we the Jews are.

The clay and then you get to Romans chapter 9 the context the Jews is represented

as the clay and so the iron represents Rome

the clay Represents Jerusalem.

There is no gap.

There is no parentheses.

All right.

And then it says that there was a stone carved out by no human hand the stone represents the

incarnation of Jesus.

Jesus Christ Was born of the Virgin meaning that he had no earthly father.

God was his father.

Right, the Holy Spirit came upon Mary.

He was conceived the incarnation the God -man Jesus Jesus the hypostatic union was

fully God fully man and we and we walked through this text a few weeks ago.

I believe it was this this concept of the incarnation.

So the stone that's cut out by no human hands is speaking of the incarnation and it comes at

the time When the iron and the clay were mixed because this text says that it hits the statue

on the feet.

So the stone comes down and it strikes the statue on the feet.

During the time of the pox Romanus the Roman peace when iron was mingled with

clay there's only one time in history that the iron was mingled with clay.

If the iron is Rome and clay is Jerusalem.

First century Jerusalem is when the iron was mingled with clay.

Jesus born Jesus was born around 3 to 4 BC.

Okay Rome was in control over Jerusalem

During this time and so and it says that this stone

lands on the statue.

It lands on the earth the statue crumbles and we'll talk about

Interpretation of that and then it says that that statue.

I mean that stone Grows on the earth and covers the whole earth.

Now, I believe just as the head of gold represented Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar, I

believe this stone is carved up by no human hand who represents Jesus Christ.

I also believe it represents Jesus Christ's kingdom the kingdom of God the kingdom of heaven.

So I believe that the kingdom of heaven came at the time of the incarnation and

Every since it's been on earth and I know that this is where me and Braden would put on our

boxing gloves and have it out and.

But it's been growing on the earth.

You hear me Braden on the earth growing on the earth.

No.

Yeah, yeah, yeah and so.

And so what I want to do tonight is It's to focus in on this

stone this kingdom of God and I want to Talk about what what I believe

what you believe and what?

We know that that other People held host to in Christendom.

Does that sound fair?

Yeah other other.

Orthodox Christians what their views are on that right?

Maybe maybe be fair.

If you want to mind, I'll just give a quick summation maybe of dispensational premillennialism on this.

And I don't know if there would be a major split in a historic premillennialism According to just this

text because there isn't a lot to do with I don't know what historical.

I don't know what the historicals believe.

I only know what the dispensationals would say and that would.

Yeah that that.

Again that the statue so the feats cut off.

Because they believe that the stone comes down and strikes the feet.

They believe that Jesus is the stone that this kingdom is.

It is the kingdom of heaven, but the kingdom of heaven is not going to happen until our future.

Yep, so.

Yeah, go ahead.

If I'm not mistaken now, I know the premillennial dispensationals believe that that

it will be after a Rapture with a seven -year tribulation.

Now if I'm not mistaken the Premillennial historical premillennials would say that it would.

That the kingdom would come the stone Strikes the statue.

Would like in my mind it would make sense at the second coming.

Yeah, I.

Would I I would agree with with that for sure and

Maybe let me let me just run through this with a dispensational premillennial lens on real fast and then to anybody that would be

Dispensational premillennial that's listening to this.

I this is not me saying that.

It's me saying that I disagree with you and I I fervently do and and whatnot.

But you fervently disagree with me and this would be my best my my best approach to try to describe that side of that, right?

So they would they would agree on the interpretation of the dream that that that the gold represents

Nebuchadnezzar and Nebuchadnezzar and represents the entirety of his Babylon kingdom.

They written they know that the the chest plate rings Medo -persia the the thighs and abdomen

the bronze represents Greece and then the legs represent Rome and they would say that the

the the split where they they very clearly see a difference is that Rome

never really had a Impact of a defeat such as we see with

Babylon being conquered and and a kingdom falling away.

They would say that Rome just just kind of disappeared.

It just got too big and it just left and so they would say that the the Rome never was

struck in Verse 35 or verse 34.

It was never struck yet.

And so therefore since Rome never really was struck that can't mean the first coming of Christ.

That has to mean the second coming and they would say that the second coming of Christ

will come about.

When there will be this Rome type Government that this Rome type

government in the future not today.

But in the future will come it will unite ten kingdoms and they will bring that about

because of verse Verse 42 it says as and as the toes

of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery.

So some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be written brittle.

And so they'll connect these things to the book of Revelation and they'll say look.

This this has to be a future sense because these ten kingdoms it talks about this ten number in the book of Revelation.

And then as we talked about in Daniel chapter 7 in a future date There's gonna be these horns that come from this beast.

This all has to be future to them and They would say that it will appear like Rome

ten kings will come together and that will then be.

When from my understanding is that this would be shortly prior to.

No, no, I'm thinking about I would assume that this would be a shortly prior to the rapture is what they would say and by Rapture

means that your clothes are left on the ground you get pulled up into heaven.

And they would most likely assume a a secret rapture that that Christ never Physically lands with his

feet on the earth.

They're taken out before the tribulation tribulation takes place.

The three and a half years three and a half years so on and so forth and of the tribulation happens.

The Christ thing comes back with those raptured people.

Those that are that are left behind the Jews.

They're all saved at that point.

And from that point that would be the Millennial Kingdom the stone that was cut out without hands has come and

now struck this Rome like kingdom with ten toes ten kings and And has

inaugurated his kingdom in that sense.

And then they would they would say that that's the Revelation chapter 20 verses 1 through 6 that's that

thousand -year period.

That's there will be continued continuing death.

Continuing sin people falling away people coming to Christ creation

not being glorified.

All those things are still taking place in a thousand years at the end of the thousand years there will be a final battle and a final

judgment and from that time, then there will be the Everlasting everlasting the new

heavens and the new king and so they have very much a broken down system.

Doing of looking at it and I would say that the reason that they believe in in this kind of a reading of a

text is because I Would argue that this is a hyper

literacy reading of the text is that we're looking for things that are not meant to be Dug into

as much as what they are.

This is prophetic language that we see in here.

There's obvious symbols obviously pictures that are taking place here and and we need to take them as such

it I Would argue that Rome it says there's these toes.

Well, there was also ten fingers on the arms on the hands.

Do we see ten Kings in the Medo -Persia time?

No.

There says there's two thighs of bronze.

Are are we supposed to think that Greece was was two different kingdoms?

Rome has two legs the statue has two legs.

So are we to think that Rome had two kingdoms?

You see what I'm saying it you can't you can't just look at this and just pull from it this this type of thinking in my

opinion and so That would be my my best description on trying to and and they would also

argue that Since these kingdoms that we see here in in verses 31 through 35.

These were physical kingdoms.

King Nebuchadnezzar was a physical man.

Medo -Persia was a physical kingdom these these kingdoms literally existed with actual walls.

Actual gates actual borders.

These were kingdoms.

Therefore that will be exactly what Christ's kingdom is like to it'll have a physical border.

It will fill the whole earth.

It will it will be physically in that same sense.

Physically just as much as those other kingdoms were and so they would say that any other Eschatology view that says that

Christ's kingdom is now even on the earth.

That's not physical enough in the literacy that they're reading from a text like this and so that would be the

dispensational view.

The historic view I think would be historic pre -millennialist view would be very similar to

that.

I think they might change where that.

With the rapture and the tribulation they might change some of those things around and I'm not yes.

Yes, that would be kind of brought into the the second coming of Christ.

Yes, so instead of having a a Pre -millennial a pre -trib me trib or

post -trib rapture.

They would see The second coming of Christ taking place, but they still would see a

future Antichrist, I believe you all millennial.

As well would see some future world leader coming into power or there could be a chance

for something like I Don't think all millennialism throws that out the

water.

It doesn't all millennialism.

I wouldn't I wouldn't say that there's gonna be any necessarily one figure I would take more or less that as speaking

of as a type of people throughout the time and.

But all millennialism is Encompassing more in that sense.

You can have all millennialists that believe in partial predator ism Millennialists that are historic in some

ways historicism or all millennialists that are Even or idealists.

I find myself falling on a partial predators and idealist reading of a text depending on which one it is.

But all millennialism is definitely a little bit.

I would say Where dispensational pre -millennial ism is very firm on its understanding.

They might have some differences here and there depending on person to person all millennialism definitely has

a difference in reading of a text from person to person if that makes sense, but Do you want me to talk a little bit about the all -millennial

ism view in here to maybe Roll into the end of that or would you like to speak any more on this with

dispensational pre -millennial ism?

No, I'm fine with that.

I just wanted to have like their idea because we know that they would believe that the kingdom is

Not now but that it is future.

And so it would have to be.

That this kingdom this this the stone that's carved out by no human hand that it lands

During the time.

Well, I Don't want to get my post mill.

Talk caught up in what I'm trying to say, but it would but it knows me It comes to the

earth.

It would be future to us.

So so if it was historical it would be that the kingdom of God is established at the

second coming of Christ.

It will be a future literal Rain, I do believe they hold to a

thousand -year future rain on earth.

Yeah, and.

Yeah, I was I was gonna say they would also add in that in that literacy of reading of the text.

They would then say Christ has to sit literally upon David's throne on earth.

Literally some some would even say not all I've talked to both groups of this but some would say Christ has

to return and Literally make another sacrifice in a newly built temple so they would say that

there has to be a new built temple because there's talks about a Temple here in this book of Revelation and that had to have been

post 70 AD.

That has to be speaking of a future building up of a temple and that's how Christ will bring

all the Jews Ethnic Jews of that day and the salvation is through this future

fulfillment of this prophecy and sacrifice.

So they they like I said I think that when I say literacy I don't mean that because you

and I believe the Bible is literal and when we say we read the Bible and know it to be literal we mean That a sentence is a

sentence a question is a question a noun is a noun a pronoun is a pronoun.

You can't change.

Jesus says that I am the way you can't change that into a question mark.

That is a statement of fact that that is what literacy means.

And so when I say hyper literal, I would say that there and I'm not accusing my dispensational

Premillennialist friends of always doing something like this, but I would say it's hyper literacy

of us to see verse 42.

And it says that there were toes and feet that were mixed with car with iron and partly

clay.

It doesn't say in there that there were there.

There are these ten kings that are coming together and creating this Union and it's like Rome.

That's pulling out of the text something.

I don't think is there and that's the.

Hyper -literacy of reading something like that.

I think yeah, well, they're not as literal as they Claim to be because they don't literally believe

that a stone is gonna fall and hit a statue on its toes.

Yeah, and I know there's gonna grow and cover the whole earth.

And so this idea that they're literal interpretate that that their interpretation

is literal and ours is symbolic like like I think it's a

Horrible argument and I want it should be thrown out the window.

I mean it is when you tell me that you host to a literal interpretation, but you see

in the book of Revelation you see.

A What is that creature.

Dragon coming out of the ocean all those kind of.

Yeah.

Yes, so when it's describing Satan and describe Satan as a dragon Do you really believe that there's gonna be a

dragon flying or or do you really believe that you that a woman is?

Standing on the Sun and clothed in the moon and she has a crown of 12 stars on her head or that.

You know these locusts are our Helicopters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, if you tell me that locusts and but the book of Revelation where it speaks about locusts, they're helicopters.

Like don't tell me you're taking the text literal literally.

Yeah, because you're not right.

Yeah, you're not.

And likewise in Revelation chapter 5 It says that Jesus the only one that's able to open up this

book that is with seven seals is a lamb that is standing As if slain.

Yeah, so are we gonna say that Christ was a lit as a literal land right now that you can go up?

And touch its wool.

Yeah, no, no, no, you understand that but.

That being said types and shadows.

It's it's speaking of the anti type that yeah, but prefigured in the Old Testament.

Yeah, amen, and and the point of it is is that it's this type of Christophany.

No, I I don't I don't argue that John the Revelator this while receiving this revelation

saw an Actual lamb slain before this throne.

Oh, yeah.

I think he saw that obvious that it was it was a theological symbolics

importance that showed us something that we need to take into account and so another great

example and.

The issue is I think when somebody reads something and says I can read something more literal than the next.

Well, what happens if I said I can read something more literal and I say Christ is a sheep in heaven right now because of that Text.

I'm reading it literal.

I you can't read it literal because you're you're you're saying I can't read a literal anymore.

It has to be symbolic.

Oh how.

Who draws that line.

Because I could I can say Christ is a lamb right now.

I'm standing next to the father.

Why you see the the hard?

You can't do that.

I don't think.

I think that's why it's important to be a coven nental to

be Covenant in your theology because you know that when it's speaking of the lamb

I mean John the Baptist sees Jesus and he says behold the Lamb of God who takes away

the sins of the world.

He's saying no more.

Will we have to have a Passover where we slaughter a lamb and put the blood over our door post and

over the lentil?

Because yes Jesus who's coming toward me.

He is that he is what that Prefigured that that this lamb that we

slaughter every Passover is a shadow and this is Jesus who's coming is the

substance.

That's him right there.

Yeah, that's him.

That's the guy.

He's the one and he's gonna take away the sins of the world how by his blood.

Yep being spilled.

And and we see that.

That's why when I try to describe my harmonetical principles that lead me to believing covenantal theology that

lead me Ultimately into believing on millennialism as well, but covenantal theology specifically.

I know the reason though that I'm led into covenantal theology is because Their

Christ says destroy this temple in three days, and I will build it up and rebuild it.

Yeah.

Yep.

He's the temple.

He's spot speaking.

Absolutely.

He's the temple.

He's the true Jew.

He's the temple.

The physical temple years ago was always pointing us to Jesus.

Absolutely.

It was always doing that.

There's a theological fulfillment even though those temples were a literal place and the literal you could feel

it.

It always pointed us to Jesus just like the lambs were physical lambs that died.

It always pointed us to Jesus.

And and so what I would say is that we always have to approach the Old Testament in light of

the new because the new explains the old and We have to understand it that this

is the Old Testament was given to a people that did not

Have a physical Jesus Christ that they could look to upon a cross.

They looked through it to it and shadows and types and foreshadowings and and and so on and so forth.

Which absolutely explains Jesus in the cross.

I'm not saying it doesn't but These people that had faith in Yahweh and the

sacrifice that they were offering were doing it because they realized that this is speaking Of a future day and and it's

speaking about Christ.

And and so I think another beautiful example though where a dispensationalist and this isn't us beating up

on dispensationalism, but the Isaiah chapter 2 Verse

4 it says and he will judge between the nations and will render decisions for many peoples and they will hammer

their swords into plowshares and Their spears into pruning hooks nations will not be lifted up or will not

lift up sword against nation and never again.

Will they learn learn war?

So that dispensationalist is once again is going to put this in a future day.

But I don't know if you know this Jeff.

Is there any nation today or in a hundred years from now or a thousand years from now that will ever use a sword for

war.

No, we got AR 15s, baby.

We got we got we got the good stuff now, so.

That's why I'm a preterist.

Yeah, right.

And so they they would look at something like this though.

And they would say well that when it says swords and spears it obviously is referring to the weapon of today.

Well pause.

You're not reading that literal literal one.

That's right.

You're reading that in an idealistic.

Now you're reading this and in the changing it to be what you want it to be to fit your

theology, right?

Which.

That's just that that's the important thing to remember.

And it goes on to talk about farming equipment.

Well, we don't use Plowshares to do things anymore.

We got these nice fancy John Deere tractors that do a lot of good work for us now.

I.

So are we gonna be melting down our ARs to turn them into John Deere tractors or are we are we gonna first

melt down the AR to make him into a spear and then hammer the spear into a plowshare and Not into the John you see what I'm saying it.

Oh, yeah, but you got it.

You got a.

To my it does the same thing when it speaks about the Gog and Magog war.

So the Gog and Magog war like like this war which they see that's taking place in the future.

Well in Scripture is happening on horseback and there's bow and arrows.

Like like like there's you know, you know swords and stuff like that, or I can't.

I don't know if it's bow and arrows.

But I think yes, you know, but I get what you're saying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, but but we don't have wars like that.

Nor are we gonna be on horseback?

You know, and so and so that's why I believe that that war.

That it's speaking about has already taken place.

Yeah, because I do believe that it was literal but I believe that it was in our past.

It's something that has already happened.

Yeah, so if you can just give us a rundown on the all -millennial position of this.

I know we kind of touched on it briefly one day was just kind of rifted off of each other a couple weeks.

Yeah, no, I so my perspective of this is going to be like I said almost hand -in -hand Similar to what you

would almost say on this.

So when it says and I'll just jump right into the good stuff because you and I and everyone else almost always agrees that it's

Babylon, you know Persia Greece and then Rome.

But when it speaks of the iron mixed with the clay in the feet There would be two

understandings.

I would say that are possible when I when I read something like this since it's a picture.

It's a this symbolic thing that we see here just as King Nebuchadnezzar wasn't a literal head of gold.

He was a figure that was that was showing something symbolic to represent something.

I Have a hard time saying this is exactly What it means because I don't it doesn't

say exactly what it means in the interpretation.

It does give us a very clear depiction of it, but I think there's a little bit of speculation but the two that I would say would be possible

would be one just the exact same thing that you said that clay is often referred To as Jerusalem and there's only

one time that the Jews ever teamed up with a king in this sense and that was when

they said Crucify crucify away with him away with him.

We have no king but Caesar John chapter 8 and John chapter 19.

We have no king but Caesar that's very clear Caesar's Rome and That's

Jews and Rome coming right then and there to crucify the rock that is being spoken of in here.

So I see that as being a absolute Possibility of what this text means the other one that I would say that that

could be In the realm of possibility in my opinion would be that that when it speaks of clay

and iron.

It's speaking of this brittle ideas this brittle nation that's trying to hold up the

rest of the kingdoms and so How do we see Rome fall away?

It's because they they overreach that which they could keep control and therefore since they had a

mask.

If you look at the maps of the the different kingdoms one was this big than this big than this big and then Rome was This

big right and so that they lost control partly because of that and so part of me says that it could be

speaking of the the the general idea that they were a king of Kingdoms they were they were a

kingdom of kingdoms that they had all these different people that were a part of it and we see that after that Rome fell

away we we get all these different nations like the Britons and the Saxons and all these type of Kingdoms that come about

afterwards from that.

I think both of those could be plausible.

If you asked me today, I would be on the side of the defense that it's speaking about the Jerusalem and Rome.

Just like what you were saying but when I when I read I think that the part where where you and I

would differ and I'll do my best to Understand where you're coming from on something like this so

We both agree that the kingdom of God was inaugurated in his first advent that the kingdom of God when he says

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

He was speaking about himself.

That he is that kingdom and I would say that we could look into there's three different verses in the book of Revelation I can't

open up to you right now.

It says that That we are living priests in this kingdom that he has made us to

be priests in this kingdom.

I'm trying to think of some other ones in Luke 16 16 for the time of the law and the prophets real until John and since.

Then everyone has been pressing his way into the kingdom is what I think that says there in the last part of it there.

There's The reason that I'm a covenantal theology person

partly an Amillennialist which is still post -millennialism in a thought is that Because

of my study into what kingdom is in the New Testament how many times he talks about it?

How many times he talks about it being a current reality?

So on and so forth and so When I see in John chapter 18

when he's before Pilate and he says aren't you a king and he says yes.

You have said correctly.

I am a king and he says He goes on to say that my kingdom is not of this world.

My kingdom is not of this realm is speaking of a difference between Believers and

non -believers in far of this world because we are from this world.

Christ is not from this world.

And since he is our king our king is not of this world in that sense He lived in the

world, but he is not of the world his kingdom therefore resides with him not of this world

and so since all the prophecy that talked about Setting a descendant of David

upon his throne that this future descendant of David would be sitting upon his throne.

And you wouldn't agree disagree with this but in Acts chapter 2 verse verse

29 it says brother.

I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried in.

And his tomb is with us to this day.

So this is a team that you can go to and visit today I even though I don't think no one knows where that team is but this is a

tune that you can go and visit a dead.

Body, and yeah, at least at that time his hearers knew where the tomb was.

Exactly and so he says because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him

with an oath to seat one of His descendants upon his throne and it's quoting from Old Testament prophecy

right there.

He said he speaking of David looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of

the Christ.

What did he speak.

That he would sit one of his descendants upon the throne and it says he looked ahead to spoke of the Resurrection of Christ

that he was neither abandoned to Hades nor or this grave Abandoned to Hades nor did his flesh

suffer to cave this Jesus God raised up again to which we are all witnesses.

And so he's saying we witnessed this resurrection.

We've witnessed this ascension.

He is sitting at the right hand of God today.

Philippians chapter 2 says that he's sitting at the right hand of God and his name is above all names that he is The king of kings and the

Lord of Lords that this is something that you cannot get around.

And so my argument would be that this kingdom was inaugurated in his first coming

that his kingdom is not of this world in the sense that He is not Of a

sinful man like you and I that that his his being is a divine being and it's

not of this world.

It's not of the dust of this earth.

Just as Adam was this physical man that rose out of the earth Christ became this physical man out of heaven and

Dwelt amongst us and we're undid what?

Adam had done for us as our federal head.

And so I would say that when it says that it fills the whole earth.

It's speaking about this unseen kingdom that is not found within walls not found within

a building not found within a city but that it is this unseen

Stones upon stones that are being built upon the rock of Christ that in his death burial and resurrection He died for every

single believer today yesterday and tomorrow and then that kingdom is continually getting bigger because more and more

people are Believing in him and I would argue that it is a physical kingdom because Christ became

flesh 2 ,000 years ago and since he is my kingdom.

It's an absolute physical kingdom that is seen within the

hearts of believers both dead and alive.

That while the dead were alive that was the physical kingdom of God and it is still the physical kingdom of God because

they're with Christ now and that it is physical in me and you and everyone else that

professes Christ because they're physically on the earth now.

But when we die, it's not like that kingdom is as that part of that kingdom has fallen away but that kingdom

continues on with Christ in Christ because of what Christ has done 2 ,000 years ago and

That when it says that he struck all at the same time that he struck all these kingdoms at the same time.

That when he struck this this iron in the clay, it does say that it hits the feet first.

But it says at the same time they were crushed.

And so I think there's a there's a significant part that we're getting out in there that it's saying that Christ

struck Rome and Jerusalem according to how I'm taking it today.

But what he did had impact throughout all ages.

Before his crucifixion and after Chris crucifixion that all kingdoms fall at his kingdom that

every kingdom will always fall away but he will never fall away that his kingdoms from everlasting to everlasting

and that when it says that Something that I've contemplated a lot with psalm 110 that it says that

The Lord said unto my Lord sit at my right hand until I make my enemies fight your footstool.

When any kingdom conquers another kingdom when any kingdom comes in and conquers one

There's gonna be a couple things that would happen, right?

There's gonna be death and then those that are alive are gonna be made footstools before the king, right?

Yeah.

Well, I Would argue that in that text being made subject in psalm 110

is not speaking about those that will be future defeated In the sense of a future judgment, but that

is speaking of those that were once enemies Of Christ have now been accepted into his kingdom

and have been made a subject to him.

They're subjects to him so when it says that we are priests to him that it's because we become a

subject underneath those pierced feet that have that that that saved us and so

I would say that that his kingdom is a physical kingdom.

But when our physical flesh dies, it does not mean that his kingdom has stopped.

That it's that we still are in his kingdom in heaven those three different Verses in

Revelation that talks about us being priests.

It talks one about I think being priests in the Millennial Kingdom if I remember right it speaks about us being

priests today Currently and it speaks about us being priests serving him in heaven as well.

And so I would say that this kingdom is one that Just always is continuing always continuing and it's feeling the earth in the

sense that it's always When when Christ his death burial and resurrection happened and his

ascension took place we see those spiritual gifts take place in the Apostles

these these disciples and they're able to preach the gospel to every common ear of that day and the gospel goes around the world

at a Fast fast rate and I would say that that's because Satan was bound in the

death burial resurrection of Jesus Christ in his life ministry and all that and When Satan was

bound it's speaking of that He no longer has an influence over the Gentiles like he was before that.

It's now His falling this bottomless pit is him continually following falling

To not be able to deceive the nations because that's what it says that when Satan is bound you that

He will no longer deceive the nation.

So he's no longer deceiving the nations because today we see the gospel on every single part of the world the nations

as whole have Understood there's at least one believer in every single nation right now there really is and so

since that is that he's no longer to see the nation's and it's because of the miraculous

gift of what the Apostles were able to do the Holy Spirit working through them and It

comes about in John chapter 12 verses 36.

I believe it.

It says that That I will cast the ruler out of the ruler of this world out

and in Matthew chapter 12 he says that he has to bind the strong man in order to ransom the house, and I think that the house is

speaking of those that the house is speaking of the world and the ransoming of

the the belongings of the strong man are those that will believe in him in a future day that he's Gentiles that are

going to be these nations that come to Christ after his death burial and resurrection and so I think correct me

if I'm wrong, but You want to argue from a millennial stand or an error not a

millennial stance a kingdom stance of Christ.

Are the kingdom being in heaven right now?

Is that correct?

Well, I'm so.

Yes, and no.

Because I do believe you know the text is clear that you know Jesus

Fulfills The Covenant of David the Davidic Covenant through his resurrection and he sits on the

throne of David and that the throne of David is in heaven at the right hand of the Father.

And so.

But I believe that the kingdom of God is the church.

Yes, and and whenever it's my turn.

I'll kind of explain that yeah.

And maybe before I turn it over to you that that's that the and I'm not speaking of the visible

church I'm speaking of those that profess Christ the invisible church the body of Christ.

Yeah, I say that the body of Christ It's physically on earth and the body of Christ that's physically in the heaven all those

things encompass the fullness of the kingdom.

Yeah.

That's what my argument would be.

So yeah, yeah, I'll let you I'll let you explain your position.

After I guess I'll do that.

Yes, of course when it comes to Daniel chapter 2 we kind of you know aligned definitely we had to go the

the chest of silver that the thighs of bronze the the legs of iron

and I definitely ho to the interpretation of the the feet being partly of

iron partly of clay speaking of The Pax Romantis the the Roman peace and that

this this this stone that's carved out by no human hands that it's speaking of the incarnation

the God -man Jesus taken on flesh and it happens at the time so When it says

that the stone strikes the statue on the feet I believe that it's speaking of that the statue that the

stone comes at the time Jesus comes at the time During

the Roman peace and we when we see that that is true.

We read scriptures.

We see that this is true Rome Had was what was a

kingdom that that was Had ten nations under it, right?

So this was a time in history where it was peace It was peace because there was peace because

Rome had taken control of these nations

And so I Would say where the statue is fall and I definitely would Would agree

somewhat what you're saying that I believe that at the cross When Jesus Christ was

crucified this one moment in history.

It's it's kind of like if I take I'm gonna just you know, kind of Give

like a little visual but if I but if yeah, but if I was to take this paper towel and And

say I I had weights on it like I had it like a table on the table

Had a hoe in the center, but if I'd lay this paper towel down and I had let's say weights

on each corner and I was to take my finger and push through and In the same way

that it would it would push through but those weights on that corner would all come to this one spot

And that would fall and it would be put into that one spot.

Well, that's what I'm saying that that took place during this time.

So so when Christ was crucified all the kingdoms past Present

and future are all being drawn to this one moment of time when Christ was crucified

Everything past present future is being put under the feet of Christ.

I absolutely love that analogy, by the way.

That was wonderful. That was great.

Yeah.

Working with what I had.

My wife thinks that's the best thing about me.

I just I just I can look within two feet.

Sorry, I didn't mean it.

Well, I didn't mean to interrupt you because that was.

Yes, so so.

So I believe that when it's talking about the statues falling like the reason why it didn't and because at this

time Babylon was destroyed long before Christ came so with the music versions in Greece.

But it came at the time of Rome and Rome at that time wasn't destroyed until hundreds of years later.

All right, but the the idea is is he saying that when his kingdom comes?

Past present and future.

All kingdoms everything is going to be put under the feet of Christ.

Why because Christ Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures.

He was buried on the third day.

He rose he lived the life.

We could not live and he died the death that we should die.

He took our place on the cross and because he has done this You and I today we bow our knee

and confess with our mouth that he is Lord.

But one day every knee is going to bow whether it they bend it or it breaks and their tongue will confess

him as Lord whether it's Jesus Christ is Lord now or as the screams and and.

And the screams of their and the smoke or their torment like like they're going to

say they're going to know is that Jesus Christ is Lord and it will be to the glory of God the Father.

But when when you're talking about this kingdom that comes right this this

kingdom that comes.

So I want to take you back, you know to the the Abrahamic.

You know.

So, well, let's go back to the Davidic covenant, I mean, I'm sorry not the David at the endemic covenant.

God made a covenant with Adam.

Adam broke this covenant and he and he tells them if you eat of this tree.

You will die.

Well, how does he die?

He removes him from the tree of life?

Removing Adam from the tree of life is how Adam died if Adam would have kept this covenant He would have been able to

eat from the tree of life him and his posterity and they would have lived forever.

By removing Adam from the garden from the presence of the tree of life.

This is how Adam dies and this is how you and I die.

Okay God Takes from the descendants of Adam and

he and he and he begins a kingdom people through Abraham

okay, and then He gives this kingdom people a land and a law

through the Mosaic Covenant and through the Davidic Covenant He gives this kingdom people a king.

Yeah.

All right.

This is an earthly kingdom people.

He he brought them about through Abraham through the law of Moses he gives them a land the

land of Canaan and he gives them a law and the idea was keep this law and

Live in the land break this law and you will be removed from the land.

We see over and over they broke this law.

They were moved from they were moved from the land the sacrificial system was given as a way to

not as a way for forgiveness of sins in the sense of eternal salvation.

But forgiveness of sin as that record of debt claim that they could continue to live in that land

of Canaan.

It was not an an eternal salvation, but it was an earthly salvation.

So everything dealing with Jews was very earthly.

Keep keep the Covenant earthly promises break the Covenant.

Earthly curses you see what I'm saying?

Yep.

All right, and then he gives to them an earthly King David.

David was the earthly King.

Jesus fulfills the Davidic Covenant.

Like you said he was he was born and he of the tribe of Judah the scepter shall not

pass from Judah.

He he comes from the line of David one would sit on his throne would be forever if

if Jesus at this time before his crucifixion.

Like it's impossible for someone to sit on a throne on earth forever.

Like in a physical skin without this glorification that that Jesus took whenever he

Was given back the glory, you know.

And just to prove that and in John chapters 17 he he

he speaks about the glory that he shared with the father and so whenever he was resurrected he had

this glory back and and.

But when he he was resurrected and he went to be Ascended into the heaven.

He sits down on this throne in heaven, right?

So he fulfills.

According to the Apostle Peter he fulfills the Davidic Covenant he right now.

Well he then 30 beasts 30 AD sat down

on the throne of David.

He right now is on the throne of David then and now ruling and reigning.

All right now the kingdom.

So you have the earthly kingdom, but then you have the heavenly kingdom the kingdom of heaven.

John chapter 3.

Nicodemus comes to him and Jesus says to him unless you're born again, you cannot

see the kingdom of heaven.

All right.

Now if the kingdom of heaven was only in heaven was only a heavenly reality.

Was only something that you could see in heaven.

Why would he say you cannot see unless you're born again now in order to enter the old covenant

a Jew only had to be born.

When a Jew male or female were born they were in the old covenant.

Now the male child would take the sign of the covenant which was circumcision.

And so and he's telling Nicodemus who is in the old covenant unless he's born again.

He cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, which is the new covenants.

And then he says unless you're born of water and the Spirit you cannot well first one was see this is with your

eyes.

Second one is you cannot enter.

And the word born again means born from above unless God does something

on your behalf.

You cannot enter this.

This is not earthly.

You cannot be born.

Naturally born into this kingdom.

God has to born you birth you and that is through the preaching of the gospel

what Christ Jesus has done.

I'll always say it.

I Always will say it the covenant of redemption and God purpose to save the people.

Jesus came and accomplished the purpose.

This is through his life death the burial and resurrection.

Living the life who cannot live down the death that we should die.

The Holy Spirit applies that purpose through the message.

So when we preach this message about Jesus and what he has done the Holy Spirit applies

this purpose.

And as we're preaching this and the way the Holy Spirit applies this purpose is is that they are born from above?

They go from not believing.

To believing and I mentioned earlier probably in our other podcast where I was talking about

Intellectually believing and actually believing in your heart.

We live in a world where many people have professed with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord.

But in order to be a true Christian, you also have to believe something scientifically impossible.

And that is that God raised this Jesus from the dead.

Right, and so whenever you hear this message you go something

No less than a miracle takes place.

You go from not believing to believing.

You're born again.

You're given faith to believe you have You you now see the

kingdom of God you now understand why this

this church exists the body of Christ and you enter in by faith.

Alone faith alone believing trusting in this faith that you you enter in by

is given to you.

So this is what I would call for Renza.

So Not seeing and seeing would be forensic Transaction and

then not having faith and entering in by faith will be an ethical transformation.

Something happens to you and now you're able to enter into the kingdom, which I

believe is the church.

And so and I would and I would say although it is the heavenly kingdom.

It is an earthly reality.

You know, you mentioned something about the him saying that the kingdom of God is not of this world.

The kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

But he also speaks of his disciples and John 17 saying that his disciples were not of this

world.

When clearly they were in the world.

So you can be not of the world and be in the world.

And so I would would agree with you that of course the kingdom of heaven is in heaven.

But the kingdom of heaven is also on earth.

When you become a Christian you are entering the kingdom of heaven.

Yeah, and that is on earth.

You know when I became a Christian, I didn't I didn't die and go to heaven.

I Became a Christian.

I I've entered the new covenant by faith alone in Jesus Christ and the faith alone that brought me into the

coven is something that Was given given to me for by grace you are saved through faith.

And this is not of yourself.

This is not of yourself.

The nearest antecedent is faith.

God gave me faith to believe something.

It's scientifically impossible.

You see what I'm saying?

And so now I Trust Jesus.

I'm in this kingdom and I believe where it says that this this This

kingdom it's on earth and it grows so I believe that every time the Gospels

preached in the Holy Spirit applies the purpose and Someone becomes a Christian

that mountain gets bigger.

That that mountain is actually the temple of God the body of Christ.

That's on earth growing and one day I believe it's going to cover the whole earth now I don't believe it in

a sense that most post mill Believe it.

So a lot of post mill would argue that this is saying that the earth will be.

I mean that the world will Be Christian eyes but the Bible never says that the earth will be Christian eyes.

It only goes as far as to say that the That this mountain will cover the whole earth or

it says that the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

Now go back to the intellectual believer.

He has this knowledge, but he's not a true believer.

And so I believe that everyone before the coming of Christ is going to know about

The gospel they're gonna know.

I mean, I mean everyone now knows that there's a God creation declares his glory.

Paintings, I mean painters paint paintings paintings don't paint themselves.

Builders build buildings buildings.

Don't build themself.

It takes someone some someone with a mind to create and make something.

The heavens declare the glory of God.

If you say hey, I believe in the Big Bang.

Well, guess what someone had to beat the drum if there was a Big Bang someone had to bang it.

Like, you know, it doesn't make any sense if it's a scientific impossibility that

nothing created everything.

Like that's that doesn't make sense.

Yep, nothing.

If there was nothing in the beginning then there's there would be nothing now and there's no such thing as a beginning.

In order for there to be something.

Someone had to create it.

I cannot take a couch in one hand.

And not that I'm strong enough or loves in a love seat in the other hand rub it together and produce a chair.

Because non living things can't create Stuff but living things can a man and a woman

can come together.

Rub together and in a way to produce a living channel.

But it takes life to produce life and so when you look around you see puppy dogs you see cats.

You see butterflies, you see birds, you see squirrels, it's deers and and all this other stuff, you know that

there has to be.

Someone had to create these things and what I'm saying is is that it is God and everyone knows

that there's a God.

But what the but what this is telling us is that everyone's going to know

How to get to this God and that is through Jesus Christ.

Before Jesus Christ comes at the second advent everyone's gonna

Have knowledge of what Jesus I mean true knowledge not this TBN.

Give me your money.

Christianity.

Crap, we see on TV, but true knowledge of what Christ Jesus has done for us and I'm you

know.

And of course, I don't believe everyone's going to receive it or anything because we don't see that now.

There's there's always going to be.

Even among.

It's always going to be in the church.

True believers intellectual believers and non -believers like right the wheat in the tares.

This isn't this is a reality.

It's always going to be so.

Yeah, I don't see anywhere in Scripture that that that says it's not.

But I do believe that this is speaking of the kingdom of heaven on earth.

It's going to grow and cover the whole earth the whole earth is going to have knowledge of what God has done

for us in Christ.

Does that make sense.

Yeah, absolutely.

So.

So you would say that that that isn't a current reality yet that that's going to be a future time that the whole world

will.

Know those kind of things.

Is that what I believe like in Hebrews chapter 2 verse 5 it talks about

the world to come and The the word for world there is oikomene and at the

time the oikomene was just the Roman Providence ten nations.

But it said the oikomene to come that it was going to grow and then

you know It's been close to 2 ,000 years and it's grown a whole lot.

And so it is a current reality but I would also say and

So Pastor cow my the other elder at our church his wife Julie Listened to a

podcast that I was on and I gave an analogy and she said it really Brought it to life to

her and that and I can the analogy was about the kingdom of God like the Bible explains it as a mountain.

As a stone that grows into a mountain putting leaven in a loaf and the leaven covers the

whole loaf.

But I explained it to her as a Child being born when a woman has a

child the child does not come out of her body fully grown.

Yeah.

You know when the child comes out, it's an infant.

Then it's a toddler.

Then it's a brat.

Oh, yeah.

Sorry.

Did I say brat?

I'm sorry.

You know, then it's you know said brave wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so it grows so that child doesn't come out fully grown a male baby doesn't come out a man

a female Baby doesn't come out a woman.

Yeah that child Takes life and then it grows into

adulthood.

Yeah, and and and and so I believe that when Christ came in in 3 BC 4

BC at that time was born.

And that the same way that he grew and to be a man that the kingdom of God is growing on earth

To its full potential.

Yeah, and then right now I still belong.

Like if you were to tell me that this church is still in its infancy I wouldn't argue with you right

because we could have thousands of years left.

But if you tell me that it's probably a man I wouldn't argue with you then there

I don't know the stage of the church the you know the child like the Bible doesn't give me that much information,

but I do know it's a present reality because It's there's no longer there's more than 12.

It started out with 12.

Yeah, then it was 150 then it was 5 ,000 more then there was 3 ,000 more and then how much

more 500 years from then and then 500 years from then and then like it's growing China

Is having a huge growth in Christianity right now, I mean there's more Christians in China

than there are people in the world, I mean Praise God praise God.

Hallelujah.

I would say it's a present reality, but I wouldn't say Like I wouldn't say that the whole earth is

because I made a lot of people.

I know a lot of Suppose well, I know a lot of folks that grew up in the church.

They can't tell me a lick about Christ.

And I and I just believe that there's gonna come a time where everyone will be able to tell you about Christ

Even though they don't believe that this knowledge of him will spread.

I got you.

I got you.

And then I believe that when that there's gonna come a point that when that happens then Jesus Christ will come To another

to to to to not cut right now.

I'm sorry.

What about now.

No, you're good.

Yeah, I just like the last 10 seconds just like sped up real fast for me.

So I didn't hear anything that you just said the last 10 seconds, but okay.

Yes, go ahead.

Sorry.

Yeah.

So once this takes place, I believe.

Yeah, so once this takes place like the whole earth is covered with the not.

The earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord.

I believe then Jesus will come back for his second advent will inaugurate the kingdom.

Well.

The living and the dead will be.

I mean he would judge the living and the dead.

The resurrection of the bodies will take that Will take place the separation of the sheeps and goats.

There's gonna be that the resurrection of the dead.

There's gonna be those who come up out the grave clothed and the men of dust.

This will be those who are in Adam there.

Adam is their federal head and there's gonna be some that that that which I hope are a whole lot

more than those are in Adam are going to come out the grave Clothed than the man of heaven.

This will be those whose federal head is Jesus Christ the last Adam.

Right, and so you so at the time of the judgment you're either gonna be in Adam or you're gonna be

in Christ.

Those that are in Adam are going to be sentenced to punishment.

Those that are in Christ will be.

You know with Christ forever fully bought full body glorified.

I Live in their best life now then.

So, I don't know right it's pretty simple but it's not I.

Like it yeah, I like it.

I I don't think you and I are disagreeing on a No, I know what you mean though speaking of

because I I would argue though with the whole the whole earth Stuff that because I I do think that the

whole earth was overtaken by the gospel already in the sense that the gospel is

Circumnavigated the entire earth right it you can go and find a church in China.

Like you mentioned you can go and find a church in Africa.

You can go find a church a good church Biblical church totally totally totally

and so my my thinking on it though is like just how you spoke of with Christ being born and

raising to adulthood.

Like that Adam.

Those that have Adam as their federal hood and die as his federal and when Adam died the entire world died with him.

Right, so the child that is born a hundred years from now that never has faith in Christ and dies an

unbeliever He died with Adam.

He's his federal head, right?

So yeah when I when I think of how Christ Bought the

entirety of the kingdom 2 ,000 years ago.

It's in the same way that when Adam sin He represented the baby that's gonna be

born a hundred years from now.

And so Like your analogy with the paper towel.

I don't have a paper towel around me dang it.

But just like you said that that point in time Pulls in all the rest right

it that that's where it all falls apart on is that one singular point of time?

Yeah, so I would say that it that that's already a reality.

Yes, it is not happened yet.

So so it's as good as done.

It's like paying the down payment because in Galilee, I mean in Hebrews 2 Chapter 2 beginning in

verse 5 it says that it's already taken place.

He's all the root the rule of this world has already been judged.

John John chapter 12.

He has he has put to death.

I mean he has defeated the one who has the power of death.

This speaking of the devil.

It's already happened, but there's a little devil Roman the going to and fro right now.

Yeah, so it's already happened and it also says that all things like you.

It says that all things have been put under his feet.

He has subjected all things.

But the first Corinthians chapter 15 he is subjecting all things so it's happened, but

it's happening.

Right, and so.

That kind of answers just real quick that kind of answers.

So somebody so Mike asked about how he was wanting us to look at Daniel chapter 7 verse 13.

And I would just say real quickly in there It does not say that he came from the ancient of days

like how a Dispensational pre -millennialists would say that it cried that the Millennial Kingdom is speaking about a future day where he comes

from the father to receive his Bride, it says that he come came up to The ancient of

days and so my argument from Daniel chapter 7 13 is his ascension.

That when he came up to the father He was sat on the right hand of the throne and that he was given all dominion

power and so on and so forth that we see their list in Daniel chapter 7 per Philippians chapter 2 and

Ephesians chapter 1 and Several other places that speak about that.

But so would you say?

Kind of going back on that that key.

So would you say that his kingdom is inaugurated already in his first advent or would you say that that and when I mean?

Inaugurated I mean started it began that we're in that moment.

I'm gonna say it's inaugurated, but it hasn't been fully consummated.

Okay.

Copy.

That's exactly what I would say to.

I probably said something where I probably said it wrong whenever I was talking.

I'll go back and listen to some of the messages that I've done.

I was like, man, that's not what I'm stupid.

I know I do the same thing.

I'm happy that there's another one that does that.

I do the exact same thing.

But but but like all the all the fantastic preachers.

I listen to you I catch them messing up all the time.

So it gives me hope.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Like I'm never heard In a couple weeks ago and so you have a has

in the Bible.

Yep.

But when I and I was calling him a has all week as I was studying but when I got up in the Bible I was up the pulpit.

I was calling him has a House very consistent with it.

That's awesome.

That's good.

That's really good.

So my my my thinking is is that just to expound a little bit more on that kingdom language that

when Jesus says that Matthew chapter 16 verse 18 after the confession of Peter about him being the

Christ the Son of the Living God He says upon this rock.

I will build my church in the gates of Hades shall never prevail against it.

What what are gates?

Representative of kingdoms.

That gate of the devil will never prevail against his church that has been built upon him.

I think that is speaking about his kingdom being built upon the rock that we see in Daniel chapter 2 being cut out and In

Dan and John chapter 7 you made mention of it that that you are not of this world I send you into the world just as I have been sent

into the world and that his prayer in Daniel or in not Daniel John chapter 17.

He says that he prays that the evil one.

Let me let me read it before I misquote it.

He said he prays that the devil can't take us away that we can't be pulled away from from God.

And that's that goes back to the eternal security.

But I think that talks also about his purchasing so it says I do not ask thee to take them out of the world.

But to keep them from the evil one.

So we have Christ our mediator Who has built us as an everlasting kingdom in his first coming in this

Inaugurated kingdom that he has done and he has prayed that our enemy this other kingdom the evil one

the devil the gates of Hades Cannot prevail against us.

They will not take us away from him and it's because we're built on Christ.

So I think that because I agree everything with what you were saying.

I would disagree though with Just as as has Christ's kingdom is could still be

in its infancy or not, right?

I I can't say fully right?

Yeah, I wouldn't say that it is Right.

And I didn't take it as that as you were but I the reason I Couldn't say that that it's in its infancy is that I feel like if I

said that that would mean that I don't think Christ Is coming back tomorrow, right?

Yeah, cuz you hope I don't think Christ is coming back tomorrow.

Am I saying it right.

The MS the I always mess up with that word.

Yeah, how do you say it?

Think no, you're saying right intimate.

Yeah, the embassy so that Christ this Embassy, yep.

But like just how you would say preemis preeminent one and so like I think that Christ could come

back today Right now tomorrow and it's dependent upon the fulfilling

of those that the federal heads represented.

So if Adam doesn't represent any more of the world and there's no more people that are to be born that

are to die in Adam there's most likely that means that the finality of the believers of Christ that Christ

died for have came to Realization in that and since those things have all been just like how you said that everything has been

is being made Subject to him and has been made subject to him in that past in

present tense and future tense in that sense.

When those two things are filled Then that would mean that the entirety of the world has come to the knowledge of Christ.

Or has come to the rejecting of Christ.

It's one or the other and that we since we see the Gospels Circumvent the interval not circumvent.

That's the wrong word.

Encompassing the entire world, right?

We see it all the way around.

I think that that could happen at any time and I I would look into like Matthew.

Where is it Matthew?

Oh, I let me look here real fast.

Is it Matthew?

It's not Matthew 12.

Matthew.

Matthew chapter 7.

That's what it is.

Matthew chapter 7 Verse 14 it says for the gate is small and the

way is narrow that leads to life and few there.

Few are those who find it and then he talks us to it tells us to beware of false prophets.

And before that he talks about the narrow gate.

Of course the narrow gate in a narrow way.

I would have a.

Different interpretation of Matthew 7.

With the I believe that this is speaking about, you know, he's speaking to the Jews.

The narrow gate is the sacrificial system.

I mean, I'm sorry.

He is the narrow gate.

The wide gate is the sacrificial system.

Yeah, and so I would see that this is not even something Personally then but like

this is law.

This is not gospel.

This is this is definitely a Preterist idea

and and then like even down here where it says.

Really yeah, yeah, not everyone who says to me Lord Lord Will enter the kingdom of heaven again right here the

kingdom of heaven.

I would see just being as a Christian.

But the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.

What's the will of his father to believe in Jesus Christ on that day?

Many will say to me and now he's pointing to a future date on that day meaning will say to me Do we not

prophesy in your name cast out demons in your name now.

They're speaking to him as Lord as God and he's saying I never knew.

You didn't acknowledge me as Lord and God when I was in your presence.

And so he's and so this is really not necessarily like Like like

firsthand.

He's speaking to the Jews who are denying that he is the Messiah that he is Yahweh.

And At this time they would have been around, you know prophesying I mean, that was a big part of the thing and

prophecies of demons being cast out.

Demons were being cast out in those days.

We don't see that stuff happening now mighty works done in his name the name of Yahweh

Doesn't necessarily have to be Jesus.

Like this was something that's taken place right there.

Nowhere in the I don't see hardly in nowhere in this the Sermon on the Mount is

gospel.

It's a wall I.

Did not know that that was that was a view that was held so that I just learned something right there because I yeah the way that I've read 13 and

14 all the way through and I still would hold to it is that it's speaking of Of a feed that when it says

that day there will be many that say I think of course that day is gonna be.

The last day, but he's specifically right.

Okay those who denied that he that he was in a Christ.

Like he'd be he's saying on that day.

You will call me Lord.

But you ain't calling me Lord.

So.

So I mean because when you look at it So like if you go to back to verse 13 of chapter 5 he says you are the salt of the earth.

The Jews were called the salt of the earth it says but if salt has lost its taste.

How shall its salt in this be restored.

It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown down and trampled under people's feet.

And we see that Jerusalem was thrown down and trampled under people's feet.

And it says you are the light of the world you go back into the Old Testament.

The Jews were called to be the light of the world and then he gets into the law.

Yeah.

Like this is Law, this is not gospel.

I mean, I mean he tells him unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees You cannot enter the kingdom.

That's that's not gospel.

That's law.

We wouldn't tell somebody that so I'm tracking.

So what I would go to with with Matthew chapter 7.

Versus and I would have to read around the surrounding context, which I haven't done as of lately.

But when I when I see that it talks about there being false prophets and that are gonna come to you in sheep

clothing I think that that is I I would argue that when I read that kind of stuff I see that as an

Idealistic view that that there's always going to be false prophets in the last 2 ,000 years from the time of death

Jesus's death burial and resurrection till today till tomorrow when he comes again, right.

Whenever that happens There's always gonna be these false prophets.

Yeah, I would say the way that we would view prophets in our days.

Yes, but not the way that he's speaking of prophets.

Okay, I got.

I got to reread this text now as as yeah because.

Jesus feels the prophets.

Yeah, I mean, I mean whenever we get to Daniel chapter 9, I'll really Go in to explain how

the prophets did two things.

They prophesied of the coming of the Messiah and the coming judgment.

Yeah like those are the two things that the prophets did in the Old Testament a Coming judgment against Jerusalem and the coming

of the Messiah like those were the two main things at his coming.

There is no more.

John was the last prophet that prophesied the coming of the Jews of the Christ and the judgment upon Jerusalem.

Yeah, Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophets.

There is no more prophets like like for what he's speaking about the

The Jews produced the prophets not Gentiles.

Yeah.

Yep.

And so now we have people who claim to be prophets, but this is not what he's speaking about.

Mm -hmm.

I got you.

So Matthew is a very Jewish book and I want to go to Luke it has a little more

Ideas for the Gentiles, but for sure Matthew's very Jewish.

So I would though argue though that that that 13 I think that generally speaking of even

I think Throughout the the church age these last 2 ,000 years. I think that there's always been.

Just as Israel always had a well as a nation had a large sum of people.

There was always a remnant that was an actual believing Yahweh Israel true Israel in that sense.

Likewise, we see that the church today.

There's a lot of people that proclaim Christ and Proclaim to be a part of that church.

But there's a very small remnant that has actually been born again that has faith in Yahweh just like how we see in Israel and so I

I would argue that There are always going to be few that find it

in that sense that there that the the kingdom is always.

Is yeah, yeah, I would take application.

That's what I'm saying.

I would use application but I would say in the context he's speaking of

him.

Versus the the sacrificial system, right?

Okay.

Well that so would you say but in the future though whenever that second coming does happen

is Christ I think that the biggest part that post mill and all mill people I.

I Believe that there's gonna be more Christians.

Uh -uh.

So I'm a Calvinist.

Yeah, I Believe yeah, and you know, I believe in the L and the tulip limited atonement.

But I believe limited atonement, but I don't believe that it's limited in the amount of people.

Meaning I believe that I truly believe there's probably gonna be more saved than damned.

Okay, so so when you so that's where I was going with that.

So when Christ comes to the world the way I see it is is that it he's coming to

His bride in the sense that he's coming to receive his elect.

But it is also filled with a whole bunch of goats, right that it's still filled with with many

the world.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so that's that's how I how I would view it in that that term pessimistic

post mill that I think Christ is coming to a World that will see him again that

same pierced one that they rejected 2 ,000 years ago.

No, the Jews rejected that 2 ,000 years ago.

The Jews were the ones who pierced him.

Yeah.

Yeah, but it was still under when I saw him on the cross.

I saw him on the cross.

They looked upon him whom they have pierced.

Yeah, and I and that was fulfilled then.

I agree with that.

I'm saying that when he does come again, he's still gonna have those physical wounds.

I mean, I I think that's Yeah.

But I'm saying That I think when he comes to the world that that he his

elect are gonna be fully purchased in him.

There won't be one that hasn't been saved.

They're already saved.

I just think that there's going to be fewer in number than that of the world in that sense.

Yeah, even after resurrection.

I think there's going to be a small remnant.

If you were looking into the world and everybody that had ever been alive is alive in the resurrection.

You were looking at them all in an ocean before you and you have the sheep on the right and the goats on the left you're gonna

have a Minuscule amount of sheep compared to goats in that sense.

Yes.

Yeah I was to look at the world today and you know.

Look at the world and look at the church like it's hard not to agree with what you're saying.

Like it really right, right, right.

It really is.

But I again I do have I do ho to the post -millennial hope but I I would

say the whole world like all the all those.

Like there's gonna be a time in history with everyone living in the world.

It's gonna be Christian like like the but I don't see the Bible teaching that anywhere.

But I do believe that I'm not saying we're in our infancy.

I don't believe that.

Of course, I could be wrong and I'd be fine if I am wrong, you know.

And then he does come tomorrow.

How great would that be to see him?

Amen?

But at the same time, I don't I don't think so.

I I I do believe that he's going to save the world.

And the the world will be uncursed that that he is removing, you know.

If you imagine Adam biting into that fruit, whatever kind of fruit that is.

The world sees as an apple.

So let's just go with that.

When he bit into that apple.

What Jesus has done on the cross is Removing the teeth marks

from the apple and that one day there's going to be as if it never happened.

Mm -hmm.

You see what I'm saying?

He is uncursing the earth now will that actually be fulfilled in

our not in our lifetime, but in in

Present day time or would this actually come to its fulfillment at the consummation?

I believe it will at the consummation, but I believe it's working its way to it though right now.

It does not look it.

Just like you can see in chapter 2 verse 5.

I mean chapter 2 beginning verse 5 Hebrews.

It says we we cannot see this now, but he has already subdued the world

subjected the world hypotoso.

So even though you would say.

Just that that those teeth marks have already been removed in that cross that curse being removed.

Yeah, yeah through that it's being removed.

Okay, it has been but it and Okay, even that moment in time.

It's like that that paper towel all of that.

So the beginning of time and the last day it's all being Pushed to that are

moved to that center that that center point in time.

To where Christ was crucified and it's all going to be under his feet

Secularism everything and whatever else the world can dream up.

I got you in the in the future I like it that that that's gonna scare Christians and or I

think they can't talk about it Covid all of it's gonna be put under his feet.

I Hope that makes sense.

Okay, cool.

No, I.

It does make sense.

So.

Yeah, I like I said, I don't.

I think we disagree on far less than what we agree.

Yeah.

We're very for sure.

I think that if we started diving into individual texts like we were talking about.

Yeah.

Like so much of me wants to become an all -millennial.

Because it's more acceptable, especially in my camp as a reformed Baptist.

I hope to the 1689 Federalist.

You know.

Hey, you basically see how can you be a federalist and a post -millennial is like like the two doesn't

fit.

But I just say I'm just trying to be biblical.

Hey, so, you know to get along Brother.

Again y 'all would have.

You would definitely have to see that the kingdom is real on earth.

Yeah, which I really do I think I think it's real on earth, but I just

Do you think because we are those that are subject to the king?

Well, so where I would say that I believe that Christ is

our King in heaven right now sitting upon David's throne at the right hand of the father that he rules and reigns

Over his kingdom right now, and I would say that his kingdom When I

percent 100 without a doubt his kingdom is Israel true Israel the the daughters of Zion the sons of Abraham.

He's seeking the church all those synonyms that we see all throughout the old in the New Testament the church is

The body of Christ and so we have our federal head our King our priests our prophet in heaven right now.

So I am father I would say that the church the individual when he

dies is still part of that body.

But he's in heaven with The king right now because that's where the king is right now.

But the physical king is sitting at the right hand of the father his physical bride is on earth.

But his spiritual bride is in heaven with him right now in the sense that those that have died on are no longer with their.

Flesh so there's kind of this I would agree with all that.

Yeah, cool.

That's good.

So yeah, I'm an omelette and that's what I believe in brother.

I Can't.

We're really close.

We are really close.

I feel like I have to go over stuff because I'm like I want to make sure I say it and and and so then.

If you disagree with it, you can you can say no, but what the what the crap are you talking about right now?

So yeah, well again, I don't stay in the same line as all the all those that are post -meal like a

Lot of the modern -day post mill.

I I don't get along with it all because it's the honor me.

But yeah, that's a that's a huge part of postman right now, you know.

Right now it's definitely a huge part.

Well, it's the same thing, you know when you tell someone your post meal, but you're not at the autumn.

It's alright, then you're not post mill and so it's like well Maybe I'm not and I want

to come to the all meal, but man y 'all be tripping on the kingdom.

Well, man It's pushing.

That's 1204 here where I'm at.

I gotta get up at 5 or 6 and oh, yeah make some bibles.

Yeah, man, so if you had just two more minutes before you gate

went off what would be your exhortation.

From Daniel chapter 2.

With the kingdom of God being an everlasting kingdom.

Maybe that's a good way to end it.

From Daniel chapter 2 How would you exhort the Christian in the kingdom the reality right now?

Kingdom.

Yeah is everlasting Kingdom.

How would you exhort him?

Well, I think the idea would be is as you see all these these these kingdoms from

that statue.

That all of them have fallen and that this stone carved out by no human hand.

Which is Christ in his incarnation in his kingdom that's on earth.

When it was established.

But it will never end there was there's going to come a moment in time when Christ comes and he will

inaugurate the kingdom and and heaven will be

realized on earth.

And and and that that the church that the kingdom

isn't a type pointing to a greater fulfillment but that the church

is a substance that that Israel was a type and that the church is the

antitype that the church is the eschatological Israel the

like this is what it was all going to the kingdom.

The earthly kingdom was a type of the heavenly kingdom that we're in now under the

the true King David, which is Christ

Jesus our Lord.

He is the son of David and he sits on his throne and this throne is everlasting.

His kingdom is everlasting.

We are his body.

We're called the temple of God.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the temple.

Jesus like it.

We are the bride of Christ.

He is our husband.

And he's coming back.

Jesus is coming back and when he does he will inaugurate the kingdom.

He will give the kingdom over to his father.

This is something that that that that heaven and earth are actually

going to be one.

You know one as in WNE and

At the end of the day whether you're an all -meal postmeal Pre -meal

the end result is the same.

Yeah, our Lord Jesus Christ will has Established this kingdom and he

will inaugurate it and we will be with him on earth.

That is heaven forever.

With our King with our bridegroom.

Yeah, and and and and.

And there's no way you or I or any other Dummy or intelligent man can

describe what it's going to be like being with God.

You know five minutes after we pass we'll know more about theology than any seminarian.

Like but but but I think that would be the the

idea is it's that this kingdom that has been

Established.

Will one day be a One day be consummated when Jesus Christ comes he is coming back

whether it's today or whether it's 5 ,000 years from now.

He is coming back.

And although I don't believe I don't live in the same light as you as the emissary of Christ.

Believing that he could come back in five minutes.

I live my life as If he can right because he can.

Okay, I'm not saying he can't.

You know, he surely can but my feet my theology leads me to believe.

That he's going to save the world for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever Believes in

him should not perish but have eternal life for 17 for God did not send his son into the world

to condemn the world.

But to save the world and so I believe that the world will be saved that he is

Undoing the bite that as far as the earth was cursed.

He is uncursed in the earth joy to the world.

As far as the the curse is found.

He's uncursed in the earth.

And and it was all done by what took place.

Close to 2 ,000 years ago when they nailed my Savior hand and feet to a Roman cross.

And that uncut stone, you know, hey man.

Well, cool.

Thank you for having me on brother.

Appreciate it always man.

Again, I'm gonna do this one.

Yeah, I'm gonna do two a week and and So this one just be freestyling for right now we're

just gonna be looking at some eschatology and hopefully we get your friend on here and then maybe I

Don't know maybe on our own the one that we're doing together.

The open -earth theology or on this one we can get into covenant theology one day and really break through

maybe even have a Presbyterian on to kind of Outline what they believe and then we'll kind of

go through the reformed Baptist covenant theology.

I like it and convert them.

I Love it.

Yeah, so anyone that's listening right now if you haven't jumped on our

YouTube pages.

So we have the open -earth theology YouTube page in the in the trailer park theology YouTube page.

Click on their like share.

Help us out help us to to get the word out.

We're not trying to Which I probably like to do a podcast on this where John says he must

increase and And I must decrease and so we're not doing this so that we

can increase.

We're doing this so that he can increase.

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't understand that when it comes to ministry that a true minister

is not in ministry to To grow his brand.

All right.

We're in ministry to Spread the message of Jesus Christ.

Why so the Holy Spirit can apply the purpose?

And as many people that can hear the message of Christ.

The Holy Spirit has that an opportunity to apply the purpose of what Christ Jesus has done.

So like and share.

You know hang out with us ask questions.

I'd love to To see what y 'all thinking but uh Braden thanks,

man.

I really appreciate you.

Thank you, yeah, all right, man, well, we'll see everybody.

Hallelujah hollaback.