Serving God and Country with Chaplain Geoffrey Bischoff

On today's episode of Conversations with a Calvinist, I'm welcoming Chaplain Jeff Bischoff.

We're going to be talking about his service in the military, and more important, his service to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now.

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist.

And I am excited today to welcome my new friend and first-timer to the show, Jeff.

Jeff, how are you doing today? God is good.

It has been an intense day of ministry today.

I don't know if we're going to talk about that.

But it's been a rough day, but God remains on the throne.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, I introduced you before the show, but I'm going to go ahead and talk a little bit more.

You are a United States chaplain in the Army.

True.

And you're currently serving, so you're an active-duty chaplain.

And if I'm correct, you just told me before the show, you're actually serving at Fort Leonard Wood.

Is that correct? That's right.

31st Engineer Battalion, where we train the finest engineer soldiers in the U.S.

Army.

Awesome.

Awesome.

What's interesting about that from a historical perspective is I used to be a youth director before I became a pastor.

And one of the young men that I knew, and he came up through our youth group, went into the Army.

And he actually graduated from Fort Leonard Wood.

I went to his graduation.

So I have been where you are.

My dad drove me there so that we could go and watch him graduate and drove me back.

We were there and back in three days.

I don't even know how he did it.

It was amazing.

My dad didn't even sleep.

He just got us there.

We watched the graduation.

We shook his hand, and we were headed back home.

But, yeah, it was pretty amazing.

But, yeah, so I'm a little bit familiar with where you are.

And like I said, I asked you to come on the show today because recently we had a mutual friend on the show.

And his name is Jake Korn.

And Jake is a United States chaplain as well.

And he and I talked about the subject of patriotism.

And you and I are going to talk a little bit more about that subject, but not so much just patriotism, but actually serving the Lord and serving in the military, which I understand is a pretty difficult thing to do.

Yeah.

If there was an award for understatement of the year, you might possibly get it right there.

Can I talk about Jake for just a second? Yes.

Definitely.

Go ahead.

Dude, Jake is a man that I have never met in person.

But we've interacted online since 2017.

We're a mutual in-person friend of ours, attended a school out at Fort Jackson that he was at around that time, 2017, late 16.

Since that time, though, I've never met Jake.

He has been a true brother in Christ and aid to ministry.

At times where I needed a quick sounding board to stay sane in ministry, I was detached from the world.

He's been an ever present friend in that.

So may the Lord grant that we someday meet in person.

Hasn't happened yet, but he is a true brother in Christ, a true ally in the fight.

And we've been in the trenches together, though we've never breathed air in the same room.

So God bless you, Jake.

Yes, sir.

Yes, sir.

And God bless both of you for what you're doing.

And I also wanted to mention this.

And I think I've told you this before, but I have a son who is serving in the United States Air Force.

Don't give him too hard of a time.

I know it's the branch that everybody gives a hard time.

As brothers, everybody gives each other a hard time, right? The joke is the stars are used to tell the Army, you know, how what position you are, what rank you are.

But in the Air Force, it's the hotels that they're staying in is the stars.

Yep.

Yep.

I said it.

I said it so you didn't have to.

He's out at Spangdelim, right? Yep.

He's in Spangdelim, Germany.

And by God's grace, he's going to get to come home soon.

And we'll get to see him and spend some time with him and looking forward to that.

But like what I was getting around to is having men like you and Jake who are not only brothers in Christ, but who are also men who are legitimate Christians in a world where there's a lot of ishy-squishy stuff when it comes to faith.

And there's I'm sure there's a lot of variations in what people believe and what people teach.

Knowing that Jake is a is a Reformed Baptist.

Are you you're you told me you're Reformed as well, right? I am.

Yeah, I'm a confessional 1689 Reformed.

OK, that's not the precise position of my ecclesiastical endorser.

If that doesn't make sense to you, we can talk that later on in the military thing if you if you care.

But, yeah, I'm 1689 all the way.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I know that I actually do know a little bit about that because Jake and I have talked about his endorsement, where it comes from and all those things.

And I understand why that matters, but why, you know, you might be a little a little different on that.

But, yeah, so I can say I'm not the only Calvinist on the show today.

That is true, man.

If there were seven points to Calvinism, I'd be an eight point Calvinist.

OK, so you're so you're not what you're not one of the ishy-squishy Calvinists who would say I hold a three points or two points or one point.

You're you're you're you're a full tulip man.

I am no Amaraldian.

That is true.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Well, tell me about that.

How when did you come to know the Lord? When did he save you? And was it in a Calvinistic church or did you become Calvinistic later? It was it was categorically not.

Oh, bro.

Wow.

So you want to go back to the 80s or what? Well, have you been a Christian that long? I have not, but I've been in church that long.

OK, good answer.

Good.

I know what you mean, because I I grew up in church, too, but I didn't get saved until I was 20.

So, yeah, I get it.

Amen.

I spent a lot of time.

I got a I got a fully kitted strength training gym in my garage, spent a lot of time in my garage, either lifting or coaching other people at no time lifting in my garage.

Have I become a Subaru? Right.

That's right.

I sat in church for a long time.

It did not make me a Christian.

I believe the true church consists of God's people and Jesus Christ.

But just because you're sitting in a place that calls itself a church that might include some of God's people, I was not categorically not one of them, though.

I grew up my I hope that nothing I say tonight casts any shade on my parents who are sweet believers, did their very best to raise me with with Christian values, with with a true sense of right and wrong.

They took me to church and rightly so, but I got baptized, I professed faith, but I was not a Christian.

Yeah, I was a false.

If if if you ever use the the Ray Comfort.

Lingo, I guess I was when I heard Ray Comfort in oh, about 2009.

And you started talking about false comforts.

I'm like, holy crap, that dude is talking to me prior to two years ago.

And and I showed it forth radically in my teenage years, slipped into a life of depravity, showed myself on regenerate.

At one point, I got all the way to where I was professing atheism.

Oh, wow.

And that brings that that bring me from my birth in 1977 to about, say, late 2006.

So I'm like twenty nine thirty.

So that's that's that's the stage setting.

And that probably bores almost everybody but me, as most of our life stories do.

But that's that's how I got where I got.

No, absolutely.

I love to hear life stories.

In fact, that's why I wanted to hear that, because it helps paint a picture not only of who you are, but it also helps paint a picture of how the Lord has worked and is working in your life.

And that's that's a big interest of mine is to hear because I have different people on the show.

Sometimes I have like like you, a chaplain.

I've had people who aren't Calvinist.

So we talk about our differences.

I love to hear everybody's story and how they are, where God has them.

And so I do want to clarify, though.

So you said up until two years ago, you were a false convert or up until two years ago, you didn't realize you were a false convert.

Oh, no, no, no.

I must have missed a step.

We're going back to 2006, seven here.

OK, OK.

I was a false convert from probably about oh, I'm guessing here, but about 1987 until about 2006.

By that time, I drifted all the way into professing atheism.

It was in 2008, early, approximately February.

I know there's some folks who can like sign a date in their Bible or whatever.

But there were no days and dates in Iraq, man.

I was in Iraq in February of 2008 when when the Lord radically saved me.

And I went from some flavor of atheist diagnostic to a very poorly educated Christian.

It's just that quick.

Yeah, I understand.

I understand.

And it was, I guess, like you said later, you heard Ray Comfort and heard him talk about it.

And that's what made sense.

Or was it then or.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's like seven.

So that's that's where you got the two year idea.

Like 2009, 10, I was listening to Ray Comfort and I'm like, wow, that was me two years ago.

So, oh, I got you.

I got you.

OK, I was just sorry.

I got my time frame there mixed up, because when we talk about recognizing that you're a false convert, that's that's a big deal for me, because I do think that there are churches that are filled with people.

Just like Ray says, there's churches that are filled with people who confess some version of Jesus Christ, but they're not saved.

And they're sitting in churches right now, hearing the word of God, and it's going in one ear and out the other.

They're not genuinely saved.

And the saddest thing is people who would demand that they are saved.

I mean, I've had conversations with people who who show no evidence of the fruit of the spirit.

And yet they would they would say, but I've been in church this whole time.

I know that I'm saved.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that was me, except by the time of 2006, seven, early eight, I wasn't even pretending to go to church anymore.

I was.

But but, yeah, that was for a time that was me still showing my face in church, still professing a belief in Christ.

And look, if I place if I place blame other than on myself, it's going to be on the ministers of that church who when I asked.

Right.

I've come to a more nuanced and Lord willing, mature understanding of, like, say, Hebrew six at this point.

Sure.

But at that time, like they told me, read your Bible and holy smokes.

I think God led me in the spirit because the spirit both convicts the world of sin and comforts the believer.

Right.

I think in my unregenerate state, the spirit led me to Hebrew six, you know, four and following.

I took it to my youth pastor and I'm like, dude, this sounds like me.

And the youth pastor's answer at the time was like, hey, man, and I'm going to paraphrase this a bit, but but this is not far enough from true to be slander.

OK.

Yeah.

The answer I got was approximately.

Did you pray the prayer? Did you mean it when you prayed it? Stop worrying, bro, was approximately the answer that I got at that time.

Wow.

Wow.

And I know so many people who would say that very thing.

Did you mean it? Did you did you pray it? Did you mean it? Yeah.

But but did it change your life? Has Christ changed your life? That that's that really has become the sort of the way that we ask people when they come to the church and they and people say, like, let's say somebody wants to transfer their membership, they come visit us, they want to transfer their membership and they come.

The first question we ask is not, did you pray a prayer or have you been baptized? The question is, has Christ changed your life and how has Christ changed your life? And and that's what we want to know is because, again, people people live the same life they lived before and yet say they.

Well, I prayed a prayer.

So, you know, that's that's the change.

But absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

Yeah, I don't think that that's Pauline Christianity.

I don't think that's Christine Christianity.

Christine.

Yeah.

All right.

So so you've been in the military now.

We talked about this before the show.

You've been in the military through how many administrations? You told me already, but I want the audience to hear you started under Clinton, right? Senator Bill Clinton, 16 September 1998.

So I'm coming up on an anniversary in a couple of months here.

Oh, wow.

OK.

All right.

And that would be so that would be 20 to 20.

How many years if you started in 98, 24 years coming up on coming up on 24.

And as that is a mix of active and guard.

OK.

I'm not quite eligible to retire yet.

But spoiler, even if I were, if the Lord keeps me healthy and doesn't break me, I plan to stay for another 18 years until mandatory departure date at age 62.

Oh, wow.

OK.

So you're so you're in it in it forever.

Now, how how does that work for your family? Are you do you have wife, children? How's that? How does that operate? I got a got a wife, Julie.

I started that late.

We got married not long after I converted and we got three beautiful children.

Now we named them chronologically through the Bible.

We got a son named Asher, who's 10.

Asher Levi, age of age of the patriarchs.

Now we've got a daughter, Hannah Ruth, age of the kings.

She's seven turning eight this month.

And we've got a son, Ezra Zechariah, age of the exile.

And we had to stop there.

Never made it to the New Testament.

But it's all good because we have a dog named Titus.

OK, well, that's cool.

That's cool.

OK, so with your through the administrations that you have seen and you have served, as I said in the introduction, you have served the Lord and you have served our country.

You have seen Clinton.

You've seen Bush.

You were in the military on 9-11.

I I was in that.

That is a story that's at least interesting to know.

So September 11th, 2001, I was very recently back from a Kosovo deployment.

And I got to talk about Kosovo just briefly to say we still send rotations to Kosovo.

But when folks go to Kosovo, they can go out into the town without their weapons, without their protective gear, have coffee on the town, that kind of thing.

That was not my experience in in 2000.

We there was still a ground safety zone, a legal NATO designated buffer between Serbia and Kosovo.

We observed the Serbian Serbian army.

We reconned the Serbian army across the border.

We patrolled the GSZ.

It was very much was a much different Kosovo than there is exists now.

And I came back from that and I was on leave because I was getting out of the army.

I was on leave in Cornwall, southwest England, on a train with a with a young Cornish lady who I did not marry.

Much to much to my blessing and possibly her irritation, although this many years have gone by, I'm sure she's like quite happy that she didn't marry the idiot that was me in 2000, 2001.

So we're on a train and September 11th, 2001, we get in a train wreck.

Our train plows through a lorry, which is, I guess, what they call a semi truck tracks.

We stay on the rails.

Nobody's hurt.

Praise God.

Not even the guy driving the truck, because it was his it was his tractor trailer that got plowed and he'd already gotten out of his cab.

And I got out of that this tiny little village.

We weren't in Roche, but some tiny little village in Cornwall got out of there.

And I remember thinking this has got to be the biggest story in southwest England in the entire province of Cornwall today.

And I get into a van because the train company is providing vans to get us to our destinations.

And I get in and I say something, I don't remember what I said, but it's quite obvious that I'm a yank.

The minute I step into this van and a bunch of British heads go, whoop.

And they say, you're a yank.

And I'm like, I am.

They're like, have you heard? I'm like, have I heard what? And they turned the radio on.

And first thing I said was.

You need to get me to a TV that's broadcasting live.

So they drove me there and I spent the rest of the day staring at the TV.

I saw the second tower go down live.

I still I was watching it live enough that I still thought the first plane was an accident.

I saw the second one go in and everything clicked in.

I was I was a junior enlisted man.

I had zero strategic idea.

I'd studied a little bit of military history, but I was not a dude who understood strategy.

But I knew we are about to go to war and it will not be short.

I didn't know it was going to last as long as it did.

But I knew as soon as I saw that things are about to change for the United States military for a long time to come.

Yeah.

So, yeah, tiny little train wreck.

Everybody's got a story of where they were on that day, just like my folks have a story about where they were when Kennedy got shot.

But mostly they're interesting only to the person that that lived them.

So, well, I think that's real interesting, though, the fact that you weren't, you know, most of the people that I know were here in the United States.

I know.

I mean, I was working for a bread company at the time.

I was delivering bread to a Publix and I come walking in the store with the bread.

And they said to me, hey, did you hear about the plane crash in New York? I said, no, I thought it was like a Cessna, you know.

And by the time I get it.

Oh, well, yeah, I know.

But that but that was that, you know, because when they said a plane hit a building, I thought it was some some foolish, you know, flyer.

You know, somebody I didn't think it was a commercial airliner.

And then by the time I get to the truck and was loading in the bread for the next round, it was obvious that we were under attack at that point.

And my wife was actually in a 15 story building in Jacksonville working.

So I was the whole time just thinking, I want her out of that building because I didn't know if other buildings were going to come down around the United States, you know.

Yeah, we had no idea at that time how widespread it was going to be.

We didn't know it was going to be limited to the NCA.

Yeah.

Had no clue that day in that next few days was.

Just wow, brother.

And then and then trying to find a plane that was actually cross because I was I was headed back to to Arizona after that.

Trying to find a plane that was actually heading back to America at that time about it was about five days later.

That was nuts.

I slept in airports.

I crammed in with the sweaty masses.

It was just a weird time everywhere, man.

Yeah, absolutely.

So you served under Clinton, you served under Bush because that was during 9-11 and then Obama.

Yes.

Trump and now Biden.

I don't know if you can say this without without hurting yourself so you can feel free to plead the fifth.

But which administration do you feel like you have been able to experience the best in your in your military life? Who do you think was the best commander in chief? Are you allowed to say that? So I have a significantly greater deal of freedom about what I can say as a chaplain than the average rank and file soldier can.

So I have I have no fear.

OK, what what I say for the entirety of this interview, I say as a First Amendment expression of religious freedom.

And I freaking dare you, whoever's watching to come after me for it.

I'm ready.

No question.

George Bush.

Oh, really? OK, well, that's interesting.

So what was it about his administration that made you say that? I guess I don't know if it's freedoms or or just support.

What was it about him? So this is going to be very personal answer, right? Like, don't take this as like like the smart policy guy, right? This is a very this is a very personal and and to an extent, emotional answer.

A lot of guys got shot up and blown up while Bush was in office.

He was at Walter Reed talking to him.

I deployed under Clinton.

I deployed under Bush.

I deployed under Obama.

I got activated for civil unrest under Trump.

One of those presidents showed up in person to greet my brigade upon coming home from the mission.

And that was George W.

Bush.

That's pretty awesome to hear.

I mean, again, everybody has their opinions, you know, politics and who's better, who's worse.

But that that that puts some that puts some meat on the bones for people to think about what really matters.

And the guy who's willing to come out, shake your hand, pat you on the back, pray with you, whatever.

You know that that's awesome.

All of that.

And also because it was George Bush mispronounced my brigade's nickname.

But, hey, just whatever.

What was your brigade's nickname? We were the Roccasons, 101st Airborne, 3rd Brigade Roccasons.

He welcomed back the Roccasons.

So we all got a chuckle out of that.

But that was.

I would have thought he would have said something more like from Texas, like Roccasans or something.

He was he did his best.

You could see he was trying to.

It's a it's a Japanese nickname.

We got it in the Second World War.

You could see he was trying.

So, yeah, we were happy with him for that.

Well, what does that mean? What is what is your the nickname mean? It means Iron Umbrella.

Oh, OK.

So when when 1st of the 187th, 3rd of the 187th jumped into jumped into Japan, unlike in the European theater where paratroopers were kind of understood, the Japanese apparently were like.

The hell is that? There's a bunch of umbrellas falling from the sky, and when they hit the ground, they rain steel on us.

So steel umbrellas.

Oh, wow.

I got you.

I got you.

Let me ask you this.

Knowing that you were OK, so going back to your your salvation experience, that was after you've been in the military for a while.

When did you decide to join join the chaplaincy or become a chaplain? Oh, brother.

So.

God saved me sometime in February of 2008, not by the generator, a patrol based warrior keep.

That's a grid 38 Sierra Mike Bravo 1367 for anybody who wants to look it up.

It's gone now.

And then in 2010, on a second trip to Iraq, first of all, that he saved me in Babylon, like literally in Babylon.

Two years later, I'm in Iraq again.

I get baptized in Mosul, which is Nineveh.

So saved in Babylon, baptized in Nineveh.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, because I came to Jesus, but I didn't come to a position of baptism by immersion.

I told you I came in as a very poorly educated Christian.

Sure, sure.

And it was volunteering in as a musician at the night chapel at Fab Maris Diamond back in the Mosul area in like mid 2010 that I got this.

Like I don't place a lot of stock in feeling right.

Generally, like God has given us feelings as part of the Imago Dei.

Got it.

But I generally try not to make decision from that.

But I got this lightning bolt feeling playing, playing the keyboard and singing for the night chapel in Mosul in 2010.

This is what you're supposed to be doing.

And I'm like, I'm supposed to be playing a cheap keyboard in a tent in Mosul.

Like, I don't know what.

So I came back from that deployment, talked to my wife with some trepidation.

Hey, Julie, I think I'm what? I think I might be being called to ministry.

And to my eternal surprise and joy, she said, Hallelujah.

That's what I was hoping.

Oh, well, praise God.

Yes.

But I had no idea what that meant.

In fact, I perceived my calling as a missionary calling.

But the undergraduate Bible college I went to, you could not swing a dead cat there without hitting somebody training for military chaplaincy in one of the branches.

Navy, Army, Air Force.

We had them all.

I'm like, well, that's weird.

And then I majored in missions and I kept hearing in my missions classes about this thing called indigenous missions.

Where members of the tribe minister to the tribe.

And I'm like, well, what's my tribe, Arizonan? I came to realize that my tribe, it has a separate language that is a sub dialect of English.

It has a completely separate set of codes and mores that I was fluent in.

And that tribe was the U.S.

Army specifically.

So during that undergraduate experience, I realized I'm being called a minister.

Yes.

I'm being called as a missionary.

Yes.

To my tribe.

Yes.

And that tribe is the United States Army.

So it took took a couple of years.

It was 2015 specifically when I 100 percent surrendered and said, yes, God, I'm going to drop my packet for the Army chaplaincy this month.

Come hell or high water.

And from then until now, there's been zero question in my mind.

That's awesome.

And just the visual that you're giving of ministering to your tribe and what you said about having your own language, I just want you to know, ever since we've been texting back and forth preparing for this show, I've had to, like, interpret some of what you've said.

Even even the first time you texted, you were like, yeah, we're going to meet at twenty four or twenty twenty one hundred hours.

I was like, minus the twelve.

Because, again, this is different.

My son does the same thing when he when he comes home.

He talks.

He talks to me.

And I think I used to think maybe he was doing it to try to make himself feel like more of a man, you know, because he's coming home to dad, you know, and he's going to be like, you know, I'm manly because I'm in the military.

And that's cool.

You know, I want him to feel grown up because he is, you know, he's an adult.

But but it's interesting.

You're right.

All of you guys do this.

You all have this language.

That's that's your own.

That's really cool.

It is it is a sub dialect.

I mean, just goodness.

I say and because because I have a foot in each camp in like the the ecclesiastical, the church camp, I don't want to call it church camp.

That sounds so wrong.

I know what you mean.

Yeah.

And the military camp.

I was sending a text the other day that had like five different acronyms.

And I'm like, what have I become? Like, who even am I now? Yeah.

But yeah, it's it's an acquired skill.

So as OK, so what was when did you become you just told us this, but I want to get the date again.

When when did you actually become a chaplain? My official.

So becoming a chaplain does not happen overnight.

Oh, sure.

Sure.

And even putting in my packet in 2015 means that I became a candidate in 2016 as a as a second lieutenant.

The the army did not call me chaplain on paperwork until November 1st, 2020.

So I'm very new to this game, although in my candidacy as a chaplain candidate, lieutenant, second lieutenant, first lieutenant, you're technically under supervision.

But as a chaplain candidate in the Arizona National Guard at that time, my supervision was never closer than 80 miles away.

So I was basically doing the job, even though it wasn't my title.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

But I'm coming up this November 1st.

I will have been a real boy.

I don't know why Pinocchio came in a real chaplain for for for two years this November 1st.

Now, I know that when I went to see my son graduate from the Air Force, we we visited the we went to we watched his graduation and then we visited the chapel, the chapel.

They had a Roman Catholic service and then they had the Protestant service, which was basically a sort of combined denominations.

It wasn't a specific denomination that I remember.

It was like sort of all the different Protestant denominations together.

And I remember them saying that there was, you know, and I talked to Jake about this the first time he was on the program.

She may not have seen this, but the first time he was on, I talked about the fact that there was like a push for baptism.

It was like, you know, or not really a push, but it was like they were offering a baptism class or saying, I know some of you want to be baptized.

And so and it kind of made me think of the old saying, you know, there's no atheists and foxholes.

You know, the idea that these people have gone into the military now, they've grown up over the last six, eight, 12 weeks, however long the boot camp was for them.

And now they're they realize life and death and all these things are real things.

So do you have that experience being where you are or because Fort Leonard Wood is a basic training camp, right? That's where.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

On all of Fort Leonard Wood, we have.

And if somebody watches this and knows the Fort Leonard Wood for structure better than I do, don't fire.

Don't flame me.

I think I think we only have two force comm units, everything.

Everybody else is a trainee.

So ten thousand ish soldiers with a somewhat transient population, kind of like a university town.

We could we could be as low as seven thousand and swell to like 15, 18 thousand, but almost entirely trainee.

And that's a lieutenant trainee.

That's private trainee.

And that's private trainee in the specializations of combat engineer, combat, combat engineer, engineer, bridge crew member, which I do.

That's the military police.

And we also are home to the CBRN chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear soldiers for the entire army.

They all come to us to train, whether that's private or or lieutenant.

And the and the captains come back to get additional follow on training.

And furthermore, we also have motor trams.

I think 88 Mike, the our logistical truck drivers, not only for the army, but also for the Marine Corps to include the Marine Corps military police school.

Also on Fort Leonard Wood, we've got some Air Force specialties.

I have not yet seen a Coast Guardsman, but I hear there have been some sightings like we've got a bit of trainees from all over the place.

So do you lead the worship service on Sunday? I did.

You did.

And I still do, but it's different.

So when I first when they first told me when I gave them 10 different places, I wanted to go.

And none of them were Fort Leonard Wood.

And they said, you're going to Fort Leonard Wood.

I was like, OK, I got there.

And one of the first things the garrison chaplain asked me is which worship service, which chapel service do you want to serve in? I'm like, I'm here.

I've got a battalion of trainees.

I want to minister directly to them.

So put me in whatever service they're going to go to on Sunday.

That meant that for the first year plus that on Sundays I was ministering to the brand new privates.

And you're right, that whole thing where they where they show up and maybe they maybe they showed up straight off the couch playing Call of Duty.

Some of them.

Others, others not.

We might talk about the status of trainees that show up to show up to us at some point.

But OSUT, one station unit training, which which includes basic training plus plus follow on training.

So your initial entry training to the military, it punches you in the face.

Some people show up very athletically prepared and find interpersonal challenges.

Some people show up very socially adept, but physically unprepared.

Everybody has a challenge.

There is nobody who skates through.

There's always something, even the ones who have maybe the easiest time of it.

There is something that challenged them, even if it was boredom.

And our chapel services for IET would frequently and we'd have to run two services.

We'd have to run an eight o'clock and a nine o'clock and frequently we'd be at capacity at twelve hundred.

So we would we would preach to twenty four hundred.

Oh, wow.

Folks across two services.

So that was that was a big deal.

And you mentioned baptisms.

That's that is an interesting issue, too.

Yeah.

Those services include some baptisms.

I've participated in some of them.

I think I interrogate those wishing to be baptized a little bit differently than my friend.

My like compatriot chaplains might.

OK, but let me stop you right there.

I want to just say from now on, my my baptism counseling will be referred to as baptism interrogation.

I love that.

And I'm just going to adapt that.

So thank you, because I do it.

I do about a six week meeting with people.

If I'm going to baptize someone, I usually meet with them at least six times to go over the scriptures and talk to them about their confession.

And usually about once a week for six weeks.

It is now going to be called my interrogation.

I love it.

Do it, brother.

Yeah, I came.

So, you know, that that Jake was a 35 Mike military interrogator as an enlisted man before I became a chaplain.

After I left the infantry, I transferred to 35 Lima counterintelligence agent.

So me and Jake had some interesting intelligence world synergy.

Yeah.

In fact, when I first ran across him, I was weirded out because our mutual and friend mutual friends included ministry people and also secret squirrel people.

I'm like, what is this intersection here? Turns out we both kind of came to chaplaincy through a somewhat similar path.

But baptism interrogation, man, hit it.

They'll take it more seriously if you call it that.

I promise.

Yeah, I like it.

Especially for young people, because, you know, a lot of times when people around that 12, 13, 14 year old, they start, you know, having that that that sort of existential reality.

OK, this is life.

And I've got to start thinking about life and growing up.

And what does it mean to be a Christian? And so those are always the ones I'm most concerned about, because I'm afraid oftentimes they're doing it for the purpose of satisfying their either, you know, the church or their parents or whatever.

And I want them to be I want them to be in Christ, not just to be in in good with their parents or whatever.

So, yeah, interrogation.

Amen.

But that every every one of those services, man.

So we were a four man team at one point, right? Like we get additions and subtractions, but I'm going to try to simplify this a bit.

Right.

But we're a four chaplain team when I was doing that.

And that four chaplain team consisted of me, a Reformed Baptist, my friend, Mike, a free will Baptist.

Oh, I bet that was fun.

Well, we barbecued together and we had great fellowship together.

I'm 100 percent convinced that I'm going to see him in the kingdom.

And I'm 100 percent convinced that although there are no there are no Armenians in heaven, there are plenty going there.

A Trinitarian Pentecostal was a third member.

And oh, man, what flavor was the fourth guy? Oh, I'm forgetting right now, but some some other evangelical within the realm of orthodoxy.

But we we we had different ideas about stuff.

Sure.

And so was there a Roman Catholic there as well that just didn't y'all weren't together or how did that how'd that work? Absolutely not.

So the the Roman Catholic chaplains, there's always two or three on Fort Leonard would depended on Manning.

They have their own mass at their own time in their own place.

And it's a strictly Catholic service.

So we were a strictly Protestant service.

The the LDS cats, they had their own gig to really time and place.

In fact, briefly, because because Big Army categorizes Christians into Catholic and Protestant, they also categorize LDS into Protestant.

And and briefly, the LDS dude was a fifth man on our team and didn't work out.

Now, are you are you allowed to let's say, OK, so you got this fifth guy on your team.

He's he's LDS.

Are you allowed to challenge him on your differences or they do you just basically have to put up with whatever they give you? So, first of all, that particular LDS guy, if you happen to ever watch this, Josh, I love you.

If there was a candidate for being able to be saved by works, it would be this guy.

Gotcha.

It would 100 percent be this guy.

Right.

But we are allowed because we exist because of the free exercise clause, the First Amendment to the Constitution.

So congregational desires drive what we do.

And the congregational desire of that congregation was non LDS.

So over time, he ended up he already had his his separate LDS service.

He just stopped showing up to ours and started doing exclusively his.

Additionally, we had another fifth guy earlier on who was, oh, brother, his plane had only left wings.

I heard him with my own ears one time for two different things.

One once I heard him, it was the it was an Advent liturgy.

And instead of talking about the the great mystery of the incarnation, God becoming flesh, he concentrated on the beautiful newness of a newborn baby.

And it is infrequently that I feel moved closely to physical violence against another chaplain.

But that was one of the times.

Now, leg dropping your fellow chaplain, probably not a good idea.

It is generally frowned upon.

Yes.

But but my my preferences don't matter.

It's when we found multiple congregants sitting out in the lobby and me and my friend Mike and another guy.

Like I say, interrogated.

It just means asking questions.

Right.

Sure.

So I asked them, hey, we asked them, hey, why are you standing out here? Because the guy in there isn't preaching the true word.

It was at that moment that we had cause to kindly and lovingly remove him to another ministry.

So there still remain constitutionally and statutorily valid ways to purify the preaching staff of the congregation.

See, that's the honestly that that is exactly the question that that a father like me wants to know is, is there.

Not only are there guys like you out there, but that there but there.

But you're standing up for the truth even within the military, because, I mean, the stories that people hear that are not in the military is that all the chaplains are.

And forgive me, I just I'm telling you what people say.

I'm not.

This is not me accusing that all the chaplains are basically universalists.

And they all have basically a position that is, you know, they're they're sort of Krizlam.

You know, they're going to be Islam, Christian, this that they basically got to wear every every single religion.

And I knew it wasn't that way.

But hearing it from you is very helpful.

Praise God.

And understand those guys exist.

Oh, I'm sure.

I'm sure.

But but the idea that that that's that that's everyone.

That's not everyone.

You're proof of that.

Jake is proof of that.

And hearing you're hearing that testimony that you guys actually listen to the congregation.

The congregation said that guy is not preaching the word.

And you said, we got it.

We got to move on.

Can't have him with us.

I mean, that that does my heart good.

I mean, to hear that.

Praise God.

No, no, I've been moved on from that congregation.

Not for a bad reason.

I kind of I kind of I hate to put it this way, but I kind of got promoted out of it.

OK, no, I mean, pastors move to move churches that happens.

And even more so, like I love, like the amount of respect I have for the civilian pastor who sticks where he is for 10, 15, 20, 30, a lifetime years is is a mess.

We don't get to do that.

Right.

We're flick, flick, flick, flick, flick.

Right.

If you touch points and you're on to the next place, they moved me.

They saw that they saw that I was capable of executing, but uncomfortable with the Finney style altar call.

That was like an essential part of that service.

And I was I was able to execute, but that the way I was executing was a little bit different than the way they were doing.

And they saw that they had opening at the traditional Protestant service, what they call the liturgical service.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they put me there at a time when they knew their two senior guys were being sent away to the war college.

So now I am the I'm the senior chaplain at that site.

And we we have a prescribed liturgy every week.

We're doing Lectio Continua through the Book of John.

We're in Chapter we've made 18 right now.

I don't know.

I got to check the schedule.

We're taking a break for a week and I'm doing Psalm 121.

But in general, we're in the middle of the Book of John.

We begin with a call to worship, hymn, call to confession, prayer of confession, assurance of pardon, another hymn, pastoral prayer, the Lord's Prayer, Gloria Patri, doxology, and into the homily.

It's very click, click, click.

And the dudes that we've got are, again, it's a mixed bag, man.

My dear brother and easily my best friend on all of Fort Leonard Wood is a strong Dutch Reformed dude.

Nice.

Yeah.

So he's a Covenant Baptist, though, right? So we've got that difference right off the bat.

Wait a minute.

You mean he's a paedo-baptist, infant baptizer? Yes.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

I'm doing the sprinkle thing.

The sprinkle.

The sign of the sprinkle.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Paedo-baptist, Covenant Baptist, as opposed to a credo-baptist.

Yep.

Absolutely.

Yep.

But I understand his reasons for doing that.

We plan our liturgy so that it's not required that you believe A or B regarding baptism with respect to the way we're preaching.

We can work.

And our third guy is an LCMS guy, Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

Yep.

Very solid.

Another guy that I'd share a foxhole with any time.

And another guy who is actually, he's an ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

Oh, wow.

So you're surrounded by guys who have baptized babies, but nobody has a baby where you are.

So you don't have to worry about it.

Well, because we're a permanent party congregation, meaning we have kids, adults, and trainees.

Oh, okay.

So you do have kids.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the vast majority, in fact, 80% of the kids, 90% of the kids, belong to the four chaplains.

Oh, okay.

The rest of the congregation is currently serving military non-trainee, retired military who stayed in the area.

And we've got a large population of those.

And any trainee who is of sufficient training phase to rate going to a service of his or her choice can also come to ours.

So whereas, you know, at the IAT service, we were preaching up to 2,400 across two services on Sunday.

A standard turnout for us is about 50.

A good turnout for us is about 100.

And brother, the amount of depth I am allowed to preach with there, I would take the 100 souls, the 50 souls over the 2,400, like eight days a week.

And thankfully, even the Elka guy whose denomination leans left and who himself personally also leans quite far left has committed for the sake of collegiality.

I don't know if that's a term that regular pastors use, but it's one that chaplains use to stay within our creedal limits for the service to serve the congregation.

So he, to a great extent, self-censors and deletes some of what we would view as radical interpretations of scripture.

He self-censors and deletes that from his delivery.

So praise God.

He's not required to, but he does.

Well, that's good.

I mean, in a sense, that's good of him to, you know, to be willing to work alongside of you guys and not be a thorn in the flesh in that regard.

And it just, like I said, this whole conversation is doing my heart good just to know that these things are happening.

And what you said about 2,400 versus 50 to 100, I mean, because like our church, right, our church is just under 100 people.

We run, on a good Sunday, we might have 120, but, you know, we're running 90 to 100 people on the regular.

And I know— That's ideal church size.

What's that? Brother, that is ideal church size.

I'm sorry to keep you there.

Yeah, no, no, no.

I just didn't hear you.

But yeah, that's right, because in a church of 2,400 people, one, the pastor is a figurehead.

He can't know the people.

He can't really be a pastor, a shepherd to that many people.

And it's almost like what you're saying.

You could either have been in that 2,400, you know, group where you were preaching to such a large group, or you could be where you are and where you're preaching to 100 souls.

But those souls are hungry for the word.

They allow you to preach with a depth that is—I mean, I've heard the words that you're even using and the language that you're using is so encouraging to me, because this is deep theological thinking.

You're talking about the liturgy and the confession of sin and, you know, those things.

These are things that I think a lot of people wouldn't even realize are even happening in the military.

It's not all just Joel Osteen-esque stuff.

It's good, solid theologies being preached by you guys.

Praise the Lord for that.

Amen.

A hundred percent not.

I'm not going to shout, praise the Lord for Jeff Bischoff, but there are good dudes out here.

And I'd encourage anybody who's recently joined the military, currently serving, especially those who have seen a very compromised chapel position, get to know the chaplains on your post, because not everybody on your post is like that, and find out who the solid guys are, where they're preaching, and go to that service.

Unless you are a basic training trainee who is required to go to XYZ service and no other, you can go where you want to go, and you can curate your own experience to a great extent.

Just that little piece of advice right there, because I was going to ask you, okay, if a young man goes into the military and he is a solid believer, what does he do? And you just answered that question even before I asked it.

What he needs to do is he needs to be searching out men like you, because they're there.

He needs to be searching out men like you and Jake.

Y'all are there.

And what a blessing.

What a blessing that is, for sure.

And so with that in mind and thinking about that, what do you think is the most difficult part of a young man trying to serve in the military and serve Christ at the same time? Because I know, looking at it from the perspective of a father to a son, I know that there are things that the military has introduced to my son's life that he didn't get at home.

And that just is the way it is, because he grew up in a Christian household.

And so what do you think are some of the more difficult things that our young men and women face when they go in the military that they may not expect? Well, I can't tell you the number one most.

I'm going to have to give you a list, and folks will have to prioritize for themselves.

So I'm a chaplain under AR 165-1, First Amendment to the Constitution, and DODI 1300.17.

I have a vastly higher amount of freedoms than Private Joe Snuffy or Airman Jane Smith has.

I can do stuff on Facebook that they would get flagpoled for.

Sure.

And because I have that freedom, I take it often.

So things, brother, things that have come down like, I'm going to speak circumspectly here, the current transgender policy that's hitting DOD right now.

There are aspects of that that I can put a foot down lovingly, graciously, and say, I will not do that, and have 100% legal protection.

Private Joe Snuffy, Airman Jane Smith, they're not going to have that same protection I do.

They're going to have to toe a line to an extent.

When that comes up, because reality always follows policy.

When Eisenhower said that the services are now integrated, black and white soldiers will serve together, policy came first and implementation came after.

Right? It took time for that to smooth out.

So at this time, the number of solidly transgender identifying folks in the military is a tiny percentage, but they're coming.

Right? How long do you think before it's going to be that you are not able to say anything? Or do you think you're going to continue to remain in a condition of somewhat protected immunity? Brother, I have committed to serving this job for as long as God keeps me healthy.

And for as long as I can continue without reservation to swear the oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The moment anything is encoded in that constitution that is of Belial and not of Christ, the moment I can no longer swear to that constitution, brother, I'm gone, whether I'm ready for retirement or not.

So I won't predict anything.

All I'll say right now, I have an open avenue of ministry, praise God.

And I'm going to walk down that avenue for as long as I'll go over speed bumps, I'll go around roadblocks.

But when I hit a steel wall, I'm pulling the pin and I'm gone.

Amen.

Amen.

And I know that's a difficult question.

I appreciate your willingness to answer that because I know that's difficult.

But what you said, though, about what the airman Joe Duffy has to do versus you, you do have that protection that stands for you.

But people like my son and others don't.

They have to follow.

And what seems to be an ever-growing push from the left, and you've already mentioned the two left wings thing, the ever-growing push from the left to demand that things that would be ungodly are celebrated, such as transgenderism and things like that.

And that's, again, another fear.

I'll be honest.

My wife and I have had moments where we've wondered, because we supported my son.

My son said he wanted to go to the Air Force.

My father was in the Air Force.

We have two pictures hanging on our wall.

It's my dad's picture when he graduated, my son's picture when he graduated.

They're right next to each other.

We're so proud of what my son's doing.

But at the same time, we wonder sometimes, did we send him into a meat grinder? I'm being honest.

So a day—what's your son's name? Cody.

Cody.

Cody may very well find a time during this current period of enlistment where he must either call a man she, for instance, or face administrative and punitive action.

If you have not warned him against that possibility and given him options, such as if that person was born Private Jane Snuffy and now goes by the name of Private Joe Snuffy, we don't have to call him a him.

We can call him Private Snuffy, Private Snuffy, Private Snuffy.

It's going to sound weird leaving pronouns out entirely, but there's ways around it.

It's going to be lexically conversationally weird, but Cody's going to have to think through that now because the policies are already in place, number one.

Number two, things like June, celebration of life month.

Thank God for the Supreme Court on the 24th of June.

Yeah, amen.

Amen.

But I don't want to throw a two-star general under the bus, and I don't think that I am.

But if I understand correctly, the vast majority of general officers across the United States military, all five, six branches now, put out a statement for June celebrating XYZ.

The commanding general of Fort Leonard Wood did not.

He's a committed man of God who takes private communion with a chaplain who I won't name, who is of his conservative Protestant denomination.

I think he lives a Christian life in a much more dangerous place than I do.

Sure, sure.

He didn't jump out and say anything anti, but he did not put out a proclamation in favor of the month of June.

Yeah.

And those men also exist out in the branches of the military.

Yeah.

Because general officers are largely political creatures, exist at the sufferance of whatever president is serving at the time to a great extent.

Those guys got to be even more careful than I do.

Yeah.

But so this all goes back to what are the most dangerous things people are going to face joining the military? Okay.

Culturally, you've got the month of June and the transgender thing.

They changed the FM number, but Field Manual 7-8 when I was growing up had battle drills for the infantrymen.

Battle drill one, one alpha, and two were all about how are you going to react to enemy contact generally at 12 o'clock.

You're going to play suppressing fire.

You're going to send the fire team not in contact up for an L-shaped sweep across with a lift and shift.

There's a whole, there's a playbook.

And then from that playbook, you can audible, right? There's a standard of how you execute tactically in the face of enemy contact.

You don't put a squad of infantrymen out into a combatant area and then teach them battle drill one.

You must have the battle drills long before you ever get to the conflict.

Men like your son Cody, men like all the young privates, airmen, sailors who are seeking to be committed Christians in the military as it is, in the country as it is, must think through these things and how they intend to respond circumspectly.

Wise as serpents, subtle as serpents, gentle as doves.

When that time comes up, they got to have a battle drill in place for all of those things.

If they wait till they're in the fight to try to figure out battle drill one, they've already lost.

So there's that.

Another thing, man, is just worldly living.

Yeah.

There's a strong temptation to that in the military life.

Eat, drink and be married for tomorrow we die.

That's almost the siren song of all branches of the U.S.

military.

Maybe the ground forces more because they're more likely to be the bloody tip of the spear, but everybody really.

So how are you going to combat that? And the number one way I think is conscientious church membership.

So the beauty of doing that service where the folks that see me up in front of them is that the guys from my battalion I would then see out in the field and I make a point of trying to go on.

They all have to do a 12 mile ruck march to graduate.

I try to go on that ruck march every time they go.

I think I've been to 10 or 11 of them now.

And as I walk that 12 miles, I scroll up and down the formation and I talk to folks.

And by the time they get there, they're very close to graduation.

So the number one thing I'm telling them, they're not worried about, am I good enough to graduate or any of that other stuff.

The number one thing I'm telling them is, I've seen you in chapel every week.

You're going to be tempted when you get out to the world to leave God behind when the trial is gone.

I encourage them not to do that, to instead find a church.

There's no such thing as a perfect church, right? You find one, you better flee before you screw it up.

But find a church that is faithful to God's word and be faithful to it wherever you find yourself.

And that will, that is what, while I was an enlisted man before I was a chaplain, that is what sustained me through Georgia.

I found a great church.

They were Bapti-costal.

I'd agree with maybe 40% of what they preach now, but that 40% is the core of the gospel.

And I love those people, right? But it was membership and conscientious, committed membership to that church that kept me straight during my last deployment to Iraq.

And after, before I left enlisted service to go pursue this course.

So find, same thing you tell your congregants, plan ahead of time and be serving somewhere in a church.

Conscientiously, committedly, like do it.

The way I tell people a lot of time is, and you've probably heard this 20 different ways, but the way I tell it to like young 18 year old men and women is, the apostle tells us that you're not the temple, you're a brick in the temple.

Jesus Christ is the cornerstone and you are being built up into a spiritual house.

And I ask him, what good is a brick sitting by the side of the road except to throw through a shop window and cause havoc? If you're a brick, you need to get with other bricks if you want to be the temple.

And I tell them that over and over and over again.

That's a great illustration.

Because I hear so many people, even people outside of the military, hear people all the time say, yeah, I don't need to go to church.

I don't need to be part of a church.

I'm just going to serve Christ on my own.

What you just said, the illustration you just gave of the brick by itself, it doesn't do anything.

That's right.

It's just waiting to be picked up by somebody and thrown through a window, man.

I tell you what, I've enjoyed our talk today.

I'm taking away a lot of little goodies that I'm going to be sharing with folks.

I like your illustrations, I really do.

Feel whatever you want.

Definitely do not credit me.

And get as much mileage as you can out of it.

All right.

Well, Jeff, I want to thank you for coming on.

I'm not sure if we talked about everything you wanted to talk about.

We've gone a little over an hour now.

As we begin to draw to a close, was there anything else that you wanted to share with the audience about your experience or about your time in the military? I don't want to leave you wishing you had said something.

Is there anything else you wanted to share before we begin to draw to a close? Brother, the flesh of Adam still lives strongly in me, so I could talk for another three hours about me.

But I don't think we need to.

I think we covered what needed to be covered today.

Well, again, I want to say thank you so much for what you are doing in the military.

You are a man who is helping men and women like my son, and you are a blessing.

And so thank you, Jeff.

Thank you.

I'm sure Jake's going to listen to this.

For men like you and Jake and others who are serving Christ and serving in the military, it is a blessing to me to know that you're there.

And I pray that God will continue to give you many years to do what you're doing.

God bless you, brother.

Yes.

Thank you.

Yes, sir.

Absolutely.

All right.

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