God's and Generals, Open Theism and Phones

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

Opening Remarks and Technical Setup

And good morning and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is James White. I know who I am. Hey, we're doing all sorts of new stuff today. I have a new microphone. You know, it is not golden. This is sort of a silver thing.

And I like it because I can adjust it better so I can put it where I want it here. And same old headphones, which I need a little more volume of. More me, please, in my headphones. A little bit more. Okay, that's good.

Actually, that's terrible, but that's just because it's my voice. And anyways, we have a super-duper, neat, kino, cool soundboard on the other side of the wall today that's starting to look as big as the one I used to use when I ran sound at the North Phoenix Baptist Church, which was real big.

Of course, that was a long time ago, so this one is much fancier as far as solid state and all that kind of stuff. But anyways, everyone on the channel is saying it sounds good, which is amazing, given that I'm the one that's talking.

But all sorts of neat, fun stuff over there, and I think there's going to be more neat, fun stuff next week that will actually probably encourage me, anyways, to be a little bit more willing to have guests on the program.

I think we'll be able to hear our callers better, and hopefully the callers will be able to hear us better. And so we're doing a little upgrading because, you know, I travel all over the place. I was in San Antonio this past weekend with the Saints and the Brethren and the Sisteren at the Free Grace Baptist Church in San Antonio, Ken Billings and Tim Goad, the pastors there, and I had a wonderful time with them.

Gods and Generals, Historical Drama, and Civil War Memory

I need to mention, I know it's getting mixed reviews, but Friday morning, 11 .15 in the morning, Pastor Ken Billings and myself were the first two people to get tickets to see Gods and Generals when it opened.

And I know that the pacing in that movie is not what you're accustomed to in modern American moviedom, which is specifically designed to keep your attention when you're not really capable of having a long attention span and things like that.

I remember there was one scene where General Jackson, Thomas Jackson, believe it or not, he's in bed with his wife. But you know what? They're fully clothed. And it's this wonderful scene where they're talking about, and it does help if you've read the book, the fact that his wife, he was a widower and he was deathly afraid of experiencing happiness because everyone he'd ever loved had died.

And anyways, they're talking about having a child and it was wonderful. Talk about character development and in-depth stuff. And I hear a guy sitting behind me. And no, I did not forget you, David. You were the third person, but you were behind us.

I'm sorry we were there. I must, I repent in sackcloth and ashes. I would shave my head if I had anything to shave on my head. But it was Ken Billings, myself, and MDH, one of the uber geeks of our channel.

David Hughes drove down from Austin. We all saw the movie together. And so I repent in sackcloth and ashes. I was thinking about the movie, not necessarily who was there. But anyways, there's this wonderful, wonderful scene where they're talking about all this stuff.

And this guy behind me, I hear him going, come on, this is taking too long. You know, everything's just got to be boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. No character development, nothing in-depth, nothing like that.

Well, anyways, it was an amazing film. I've never seen Hollywood produce something where there's prayer, and there's so much reference to scripture and faith and all the rest of this stuff. And I know people go, ah, well, you know, it just made the South look so good.

Hey, they won the first two years of the war. What do you expect? The third one they're doing is going to be depressing for everybody in the South, because that's when they're losing. And read the books.

The books are good. Get the books. Jeff Schara wrote the first and the third. His father, Michael Schara, wrote Killer Angels, which was the story of Gettysburg. And I'm just very, very excited that there was a film in which there was discussion of duty and honor and actually raised the issue that there was more to the Civil War than I was taught when I was in school.

Let me guarantee you that. It was something else. But anyways, we saw the, yeah, Ted Turner was in it, no less. Actually delivered his line fairly well. I heard yesterday that Senator Byrd was in it, and I didn't notice that.

Then again, I never noticed that the guy who played Thomas Stonewall Jackson and did such a wonderful job, Stephen Lang, was also the guy who played Pickett in Gettysburg. That's going to be really weird when someone watches.

I know Ted Turner produced it. He put $91 million into it, and he got $667 for delivering his couple of lines. It was amazing. But, for example, when Jackson stands, and it's a solo thing. He's alone out in this field praying to God before the Battle of Bull Run, and he puts his arms in the air and is worshiping God.

It's just like, ah-ha! That doesn't happen very often in films. So anyways, just one thing if you haven't seen it yet. Take Kleenex, because all three of us, the three that saw it together, myself, Ken Billings, and David Hughes, that's M-D-H.

He's in channel right now. Everybody wave to David, because I ignored the poor brother in my opening statements, which I didn't intend to do, but he took offense anyways. So David over there, we saw the film together, and we all had these terrible allergy attacks at the same points in the film.

Actually, I am going to go ahead, and I know David says it was just dust, but I had tears streaming down my face and dripping onto Brother Billings' jacket that I had wrapped myself in because I was freezing.

It was cold in there. Anyways, the last hour is tough. But just the whole thing, the Battle of Fredericksburg, was very much like I had seen it in my mind when I read the book. But anyways, I don't want to ruin any of the rest of the...

Well, it's sort of like saying, I don't want to ruin the plot of Two Towers. It's a book. It's been out for years. So are these books. I mean, I'm not revealing anything to say, Stonewall Jackson died.

Hello? That was a long time ago. That's just the way it went. Anyways, please, it's well worth going and seeing. I've seen some, just way overdone and overacted and all the rest of the stuff. Hey, if we don't go to see the films that actually are friendly to our side, why should we whine when everything else they produce is negative to us?

You know? I mean, come on. Anyways, no, it's not a chick flick. It is, even though I think women would enjoy the humanity of these men. For example, Robert Duvall plays Lee. And I think he made a better looking Lee than Martin Sheen did, because his beard was real.

But there's one point where, and this is again historically accurate, when Jackson is dying, Lee sends a message by a man who had come to him. Please tell General Jackson that I prayed for him last night like I do not believe I've ever prayed for myself.

And he said that with such emotion in his voice that, again, I had this allergy attack right then and there. It was a really, it was something else. So, wonderful stuff. And how did I get on to that so quickly?

I don't know, 877 -753 -3341. Maybe you'd like to share your thoughts about gods and generals. I don't know. That's good. Oh, we've got a northerner in channel who obviously hasn't done much reading. Is that the General Lee from the Dukes of Hazzard?

That's real good. Anyways, 877 -753 -3341. Remember that this is only an hour-long program, so those of you who like to wait until ten minutes after the hour in the third half hour, you're not going to get anywhere if you don't call earlier in the programs.

If you've seen the film, would like to make a comment about it, that would be fine. I thought it was wonderful. I had read the books myself. I lived within half an hour of Gettysburg as a young man and have walked the fields of Gettysburg and hence have some investment in that whole subject and found it very neat to get to watch that film, especially at Fredericksburg.

It was just absolutely incredible. Well, the stupidity, first of all, of the leadership of the Federal Army at that point, I mean, everybody agrees with that, but then I just don't know how men do what they did, and then especially when you see the Irish Brigade.

Just incredible stuff. Hadn't had a chance to see it. Be warned, it has an intermission and ends up being about four hours long, and I understand there's a director's cut that's more than five hours long.

I wonder if that's going to come out on DVD someday. Can you imagine if that was five hours and Gettysburg was close? Gettysburg was around four, wasn't it? I think it is. That would be nine hours, however long the last full measure will be.

Let's say it's another four. You could make it a multi-day run just watching the films on something like that. Just incredible. Anyways, 877 -753 -3341. This is the dividing line, and lots of stuff going on.

I was mentioning that we were with the Brethren in San Antonio and had a wonderful time with them discussing. I presented a response to Norman Geisler's book, Chosen but Free, which primarily was on the subject of how to present the doctrines of grace.

But I started off, and this sort of left a few people wondering, but since I was asked to respond to the book, I started off discussing why people like Dave Hunt and Norman Geisler are producing the books that they're producing.

I think it is important to understand motivations in those situations so you can understand those things. That's what the presentation was about. I had a good time there. I got to meet folks from the channel.

Of course, that's the home church of one of our channel ops. Nina is a member of that church. I have been there in January of 2000, so it's been about three years since I was there last. So Nina was there, and then MDH, as I mentioned, drove down from Austin a couple times and was able to be with us.

Then Cow Poet, Andy, drove 16 billion miles from, I mean driving anywhere across Texas is like driving across a nation. I think they drove six hours to get there just for the Saturday morning presentation, which was just amazing.

But I got a chance to meet Cow Poet and to actually mention him during my presentation, the bovine bard and all those other terms that we've come up with for the poor guy. So we got to meet some of the folks from the channel, and that's always neat to be able to put faces with the folks that we get to know electronically who become friends, our brothers and sisters in the Lord electronically.

But to put faces and ages, that's really neat. I thought MDH looked considerably younger than he is, which I think is simply disgusting, though you look a little closer and there is a little gray in there.

It sort of blends in right now, but a couple more years and that's going to start getting really pronounced. So then he'll look more like the son of Bill Gates than he truly is. So anyways, we had a very good time.

I was talking to the folks at the channel, what we were going to discuss this morning, and I have a little pop-up whenever anybody asks what's the topic today. It just says the topic is religious stuff.

And I actually asked the question, you know, what should we talk about today? And an excellent suggestion was offered by one of the channel participants who rarely says almost anything, actually. And in fact, now that I look here, oh, he's away.

But Dave B. suggested something that is important, and that is the minstrel of the moose, yes. A bovine bard. We've come up with lots of stuff. I had never heard of cowboy poetry. I didn't figure, well, I guess you've got to have something to do when you're sitting up on top of that horse.

Rhyming stuff makes sense, I suppose. Anyways, Dave B. suggested, I thought, a very good thing to make note of, though it's not like I had a lot of time to prepare for it, and that is the fact that we've heard from our Denver correspondent, who we pay big money to call into this program, let me tell you something, that the goings-on at the Evangelical Theological Society, and historically, organizations such as that, organizations such as seminaries, major church denominations and the like, those organizations sort of function as bellwethers, as barometers, in essence, for movements within the church.

And I think you can watch ETS, and I think eventually what you're going to see, if historical patterns replicate themselves, if what has happened in the past repeats itself, which it frequently does, you're going to see a process of degradation, decline, followed by controversy, as conservatives seek to re-establish old standards, and sadly, most of the time, what ends up happening is, this then results in the establishment of new organizations, or in some cases, new denominations.

Look at what has happened with the Presbyterians, historically. What happened at Princeton, the apostasy of Princeton, you could very well say that, given what is taught there these days, and what was taught when it was originally founded.

And the establishment of new conservative movements, but that eventually succumb to the constant erosion that is part and parcel of a fallen world in regards to truth. For some reason, those who hold to falsehood tend to be significantly more motivated to present their falsehood and to continue to push their agenda than frequently those who know the truth.

And that happens very frequently, sadly, in denominations, churches, seminaries, and organizations. What's going on in ETS right now, of course, is the issue over open theism. And if the Evangelical Theological Society does not have the foundation in truth to allow it to exclude open theism and its denial to God of exhaustive divine foreknowledge of future events, if a person who can be considered an Evangelical who denies to God a historically held attribute that has such incredible impact upon the view that we have of God, of ourselves, of the future, of time, of God's sovereignty, and everything else, if the Evangelical Theological Society cannot exclude from its membership those individuals who deny these fundamental truths, then obviously there is deep difficulties and the decline will then accelerate.

Because once you have an abandonment of truth in that area, there will be an abandonment of truth in many other areas. And eventually you would see a collapse on the issue of inerrancy, a collapse on the issue of the gospel and everything else.

That's just simply the process by which things take place. So as we watch this, we note that in the last installment of our Denver Correspondence discussion, we know that a motion was made and there is a process undergoing where John Sanders and Clark Pinnock are being examined in regards to their views of inerrancy.

And the question really then becomes, is this just a sideways way of dealing with their issue of open theism? And I had asked, maybe I missed the thing here. I thought I had asked a question. Anyways, oh yeah, there it is.

Someone just didn't answer me because I asked, do we have the Sanders debate in WAVE format available? And if so, I'd like to be able to possibly during the break cue it up. I'd like to play the answer that he gave.

Yes, we do. If you could give me the specific number in the sub-directory, that would help me to grab it during the commercial break. Then we can, it's one way or the other. Then I can try to find that particular section.

It was the very last question, so it would be pretty easy to find it. I'd like to play Sanders' response to the last audience question, which in essence was, do you subscribe to Chicago's statement of inerrancy?

And if so, then there's some more to the question. And if anyone, I think we ought to give a free tape or something to anyone who can figure out what the response was supposed to mean. Because that means you're considerably more intelligent than I am, which is not difficult to do.

But also seemingly considerably more intelligent than anyone that was at the debate, because no one could figure it out, actually, what in the world he was talking about. So that would be something we could do.

David Hughes on the Movie and Sola Scriptura

But we do have our first phone caller on the new system, which will only be the system for this week, because then next week we'll have a different system, which will be even better than the system that we have now for phone callers.

And I can guarantee if something's going to explode today, if something's going to go really bad today, it's going to go bad now, or during the break, one of the two, when we're playing with all these new things.

And so we're going to try to bring good old David on the air. Now David, of course, was sitting with me and watching Gods and Generals and claims that unlike myself, who openly admit to the fact that I wept at certain times, he, being the man that he is, does not weep.

Instead, he has allergy attacks at inopportune moments. And so we're going to see what David has to say about the movie and Sola Scriptura. So here we go. Let's try it. Let's bring David online. David, are you there?

I'm here. You sound like a robot to me at the moment. Really?

Yes, but that's okay. Well, I'm a Microsoft guy. It could be part of the truth.

Well, being related to Bill Gates, we'll do that to you.

During the emotional parts of the film, people were getting up.

Right. Okay. So the people behind you, who were obviously not believers and didn't really care about that type of development, they were getting up because they were going to get emotional about something?

I think so. I see. That does remind me a lot of the answers I get from Microsoft that have absolutely nothing to do with the actual situation. Yeah, that's true. No, I wept openly like the rest of you.

Oh, okay. All right. I admit it. You know, Mike was way so serene on the battlefield. I can't remember the exact wording, but his response was,.

I'm actually looking right now in Channel. I created a pop-up with the exact citation, and why in the world can I not find it now? I even mentioned it to oh, wait a minute. It was actually an alias, so I can actually quote that.

Oh, that's really bumming me out. I know Eric saw me working on it because that was part of what was let's try Stonewall and see what that does. Aha! Look at that! One of America's greatest generals, Thomas Stonewall Jackson, a man of deep Christian faith, was asked after the Battle of Bull Run how he could remain so serene with bullets and shells whistling past his head.

He replied, quote, My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I don't concern myself with that. But to be always ready whenever it should overtake me.

That is how all men should live. Then all men would be equally brave. End quote. Wow, what a testimony of God's sovereignty. Oh, and he was standing, as you may recall, next to a federal cannon that they had captured, and yet there were like two or three of his Virginia Military Institute men dead around the cannon.

And that was where the question was asked. And he then said, I will never forget these men. Yes, indeed. It was quite the quotation. That's why I had typed it up even before I saw the movie. Wow. Yes, it was great.

It was good to have you with us. It was a lot of fun this weekend. Indeed. And I enjoyed your lecture. Yeah. And then actually you might want to, if you call Free Grace Baptist Church to request those, we're going to try to get them ourselves, but Sunday morning I spoke on Ephesians 1, and it was unusual.

It wasn't the normal presentation I make on Ephesians 1, so that would be interesting to get hold of as well.

Sola Scriptura, Hermeneutics, and the Homosexuality Debate

Just a quick example, the debate on homosexuality.

It is the bottom line. It's really the bottom line with pretty much all the religious groups with which we deal, and that is if you're going to really practice Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura, then it's going to have an impact on your hermeneutics as well.

And since the source of pretty much any false teaching is going to come from various external sources, traditions, and things like that, that becomes really the dividing line, not to use an overly used term, between those who really believe that the Bible is what it claims to be, and those who may say they do, but then will in some way, shape, or form, violate that faith, or violate that confession, with the addition of their own traditions, addition of other books of Scripture, whatever else it might be.

There's all sorts of different ways of denying Sola Scriptura. And that almost always involves an attack upon the Scriptures themselves, so as to make room for these other sources of authority that then give rise to the false teachings.

I mean, if you apply a consistent hermeneutic to the Scriptures, you're going to come to such conclusions as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the physical resurrection of Jesus, salvation by grace through faith, etc., etc.

If you deny either sections of Scripture, or deny that Scripture is consistent with itself, then you can make room for false teachings. But that's just the way it is. Yep-o-jumper. All right, well, thanks.

All right, thanks for driving all the way up there, and enjoying our time this weekend. Thanks a lot. God bless. Thanks, bye. 877 -753 -3341 got a phone call. Phone call? What am I talking about? Email just now from Tom, who is listening somewhere, and said he hasn't seen Gods and Generals yet.

Hopefully I haven't ruined that for you. I couldn't ruin it for you. It's four hours long. I wouldn't have time to ruin it for you. But just thought I'd mention that I recently had the pleasure of reading a fine book entitled Jackson and the Preachers.

You know, I do the very same thing as you just did there, Tom. It's actually titled Jackson and the Preachers, not entitled. You know who corrected me on that? You know where I first... You know why I really try...

And I keep saying entitled. That's not the best use. You know who corrected me on that? Now, if I could just remember who it was. Looking at the back of the... Oh, there it is. J .I. Packer. J .I. Packer corrected me on that.

And that stuck in my mind when J .I. Packer says something to you. People listen. Anyways, Jackson and the Preachers by John W. Schilt. It discusses men such as Robert Louis Dabney and other godly ministers Jackson had in his life.

Well, indeed, there are a number of books. One of the things I'll tell you honestly, Tom and everybody else, that's difficult about the pace of my life right now is I don't get to read all the books I would like to on subjects I would like to.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. Reading heresy and falsehood is... You know, it was easier when I was 28 than it is at 40. And if it continues that way, by 50 it will be almost unbearable. So I much prefer reading the truth these days.

So I don't know what that means, but anyways. Thank you, Tom, for the email. I appreciate that. 877 -753 -3341. We are going to take a break. I'm going to see if I can track down that question and discuss a little bit more of John Sanders' view on inerrancy and take your phone calls here on The Dividing Line.

We'll be right back.

Bookstore and Church Announcements

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God. James White, in his book, The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .aomen .org. What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book, Chosen but Free, A New Cult, Secularism, False Prophecy Scenarios?

No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, but The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply. It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded.

Indeed, it is a defense of the very Gospel itself. In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the Gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.

The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen but Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at aomen .org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the Gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45. Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Return to the Sanders Debate and the Meaning of Inerrancy

Welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White.

It's a Tuesday morning, 11 .32 here in the Phoenix area anyways. A rainy, rainy day. If you can pot up my computer here, we are going... This is live webcasting at its best, folks. It truly is. Why does this look so strange?

I have loaded up... Okay, it says two hours and 32 minutes. I guess that's the right amount of time. I have loaded up the end of the Sanders debate, but because it was reading through the network from a Windows 98 machine...

Yes, MDH, it does sound a little bit like the bottom of a tin can. It's a headset. Oh, that's the problem. Anyways, I'm going to see if I can find this question. We're going to look for it. Search for it together.

Let's see if this is the question here. I invite the audience to consider well the explanations offered by various open theists regarding such a clear, definitive prophecy on the lips of the Lord Jesus.

Hmm, that sounds like my conclusion here. In any one of these scenarios, the prophecy of the Incarnate... Oh, it would help if I was down here. That would help a lot. There we go. Hey, looking through WAV files here, folks.

We're doing the best we can. Let's see here. Let's see if this is the...

...the primary cause, the remote cause. Humans would then be the secondary cause of the prophecy. And how this is computed makes sense. Perfectly sensible and logically coherent. How God would be...

Our next question is for Dr. White. Aha, I think I'm finding it. Dr. White, the next question is for you. Do you believe that according to open theism, the statement Jesus made in John 6... Okay, here it is.

...Sanders, in view of modern physics, that time is relative, which temporal frame of reference is your time-bound God in? Dr. Sanders, do you affirm...

Ah, found it. It's the very end of the debate. I knew where it was. I just guess I should have gone there. Alright, here's the last question that was asked. Yes, nothing like groping the dark. Here's the very last question that was asked of Dr. Sanders.

And I'm going to make an executive decision here. A free audio tape of this entire debate to anyone who can call in and explain to me exactly what Dr. Sanders says in response to this question. Okay, here it comes.

Dr. Sanders, do you affirm the doctrine of inerrancy as understood by the Chicago Statement? If yes, wouldn't God have had to violate the biblical author's libertarian freedom in order to inspire a perfect text?

If no, then why do you appeal to, in your opinion, a possibly misleading and untrue text to argue for a theologically true position?

A perfect text. Well, Chicago Statement allows for, well the question is what's an error? And they have several pages delineating what is not an error. Figures of speech, rounding numbers, approximations, et cetera.

And all those are there. That's the text that we have. That's the text we're working with. That text is without error, given those definitions.

I believe the exegesis of the inspired and errant text of scripture, the consistent application of a consistent hermeneutic to that text, reveals to us that indeed God is the one who is with the beginning and the end.

He is, as Psalm 90 verse 2 says, before the mountains have brought forth the river that has formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting. Thou art God. All right. Let's try just his response one more time.

A perfect text. Well, Chicago Statement allows for, well the question is what's an error? And they have several pages delineating what is not an error. Figures of speech, rounding numbers, approximations, et cetera.

And all those are there. That's the text that we have. That's the text we're working with. That text is without error, given those definitions.

I don't know. That's how it ended. I guess he said that text is without error, given those definitions. The problem is, through the course of the debate, he had presented concepts of prophecies that had failed.

False statements that are made about future events that do not come true because of his position. I would imagine that that's going to be the very essence of the debate this coming November, is can you affirm that concept of inerrancy?

And, of course, we should be very fair, I think, in this situation. Clark Pinnock and John Sanders are two separate individuals. And they obviously view things somewhat differently, even though both are inclusivists and both are open theists.

There were a number of times I cited Pinnock in my debate with Sanders, and you can sort of see this look on his face of, well, you know, I sort of wish that maybe he hadn't put it that way. I don't know that I would express it that way, and so on and so forth.

And most folks in the audience that day just really had no idea. Debate in November about what? Well, that's when ETS meets. What is it? Which weekend is it? First or second weekend, I think, in November.

I'm trying to remember which one it was. Anyways, the ETS national meeting. I would assume, I'm not certain of this, but I would assume that this will be the big issue, that the work that was assigned to some committee to examine this last year will be presented at that time.

Yes, MDH just noted that Sanders sounds just like Dick Cavett. And he does. You're right. In fact, now that I think about it, he looks a lot like Dick Cavett, too. So very similar personalities and perspectives there.

Anyways, some folks in the channel are too young to know who Dick Cavett was, and hence don't have any idea what that issue is all about. That will be the subject, because I really think if you can present the idea, as Dr. Sanders did, that there are false prophecies in scriptures.

Now, he doesn't use the term false prophecy. Unfulfilled or conditional in the sense that they were, how do I put it, given their perspective of God's relationship to time, there can be prophecies that simply will not be fulfilled.

They just don't want to call them false. And the problem is, that results in no ability to identify any future prophecy as false. Deuteronomy 13 and 18 become irrelevant. They become something that has no meaning.

And ironically, you end up dealing with an open theist on the very same passages with which you deal with a Mormon when a Mormon is attempting to defend Joseph Smith. And how do they defend Joseph Smith's false prophecies?

By attacking Jonah. Or prophecies in Jeremiah. Or Ezekiel concerning Tyre and Sidon. And all the rest of the very same issues that we deal with, dealing with the cults, you end up dealing with within this context as well.

It's an amazing thing. And so, if ETS is unable to hold its position, and I'll be perfectly honest with you, if ETS is unable to hold its position, I can tell you exactly why it is. Exactly why it is.

It's called the academy. And it's called the attitude of the academy. There are those who like to use that term, the academy. We are the academy of Christian scholarship. And we must maintain our relationship and our respect by those in the world.

And in reality, what has ended up happening is, we have adopted the methodologies of studying and being academic like the world. And as a result, since we are looking for the acceptance, and it's so easy to see this, what's the most popular degree, terminal degree, in seminaries today?

PhD, Doctor of Philosophy. Why? Because that transfers around. In other words, you can get a PhD at a state university, then go teach in a seminary. What used to be the most popular degrees? PhD, Doctor of Theology.