July 16, 2018 Show with Alistair Begg on “Name Above All Names” PLUS Josh Buice on “The Need for Further Clarity on the Complementarian Position on Gender Roles in the Church & Home”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth

who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this

16th day of July 2018, and I am so delighted and excited to have

back on the program for the first time since June 14th.

That's Monday, June 14th, 2010 was the last time we had our guest on, and

it is so much of an honor and privilege to have back on the program Alistair Begg, author,

conference speaker, senior pastor at Parkside Church, Cleveland, Ohio, and Bible teacher on the globally

popular radio program Truth for Life, and today he's going to be discussing a book that he

co -authored with Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, another one of my very favorite preachers of all time, Name

Above All Names, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back.

To Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Alistair Begg.

Thank you, Chris.

I'm sorry that it's been so long, but it's a privilege to go on and be able to talk with you.

Amen.

Well, before we go into the heart.

Of our subject today, which is the Name Above All Names, why don't you let our listeners know.

Something about Parkside Church in Cleveland,

Ohio?

Well, 20 miles south,

five years, and

then moved on, and I

came in 83 in terms of...

Amen, and I will

be giving

contact

information

for

the

church.

Towards the end of our interview today.

Now let us know something about Truth for Life.

I mean, I'm sure that most of my listeners know a lot about you, but believe it or not, we have

non -Christians that listen to this program.

We occasionally even have Muslims and atheists and people of other religions and non

-religions.

If you could let us know about Truth for Life.

Sure.

Well, there is somebody other than myself.

It's my

voice, but it

began as some

of the nonsense in

light.

Let the lion out.

Well, I

appreciate

that description

of Truth for

Life,.

Alistair, and one thing that I want to ask you about, which I think

is quite remarkable in this day and age when people are

either theologically or doctrinally ambivalent or very hostile towards one another over doctrine,

your Truth for Life program, your preaching and teaching ministry, and your writing ministry,

even though you happen to be theologically reformed, as I am, and, in fact, a Reformed Baptist, as I am, or at

least Reformed and Baptistic.

You have a really considerable following amongst Calvary Chapel folks, Calvary Chapel

pastors and churches, and I have a friend on Long Island, New York, who

actually runs and operates a Calvary Chapel radio station, and you are a regular

on there.

Can you tell us about why you think that is, that you seem to have such a loyal

and faithful following, even from within people that are.

Outside your orbit, theologically?

Yeah, some days I think it must be because I'm three

sides of my mouth, and I think maybe I'm not making myself clear,

and then I say, well,

perhaps my

creed is

Christ.

That was not because

I'm vague or accommodating in some way.

He was not just Christ.

I think it is that when one is committed, if

you like,

to the

unifying factor, it's

similarly Bunyan.

You know, Bunyan,

but I'm

not going to focus on those things,

and I've never really thought about it.

I know that's, and maybe he was actually in...

Yeah, in fact, I remember, I may be misquoting Spurgeon slightly, but I know that the basis is

correct.

He said about Bunyan, anywhere you prick him, his blood is bibline.

Yep, then I...

Well, now I'd like you to give an abbreviated version of your own testimony.

Of salvation.

What kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our Lord

brought about in your life that drew you to himself and saved you?

Yeah, well, my roots, in terms of,

through my father, my roots are in

the form of that, the kind of

Presbyterian,

but by, and

actually in a

large interdenominational mission hall,

a young boy brought

me to Christ,

and as a

boy

at

elementary school,

I asked the

teacher if I could sing one of the songs for them from Sunday school, which when I look back on it

now, I find quite incredible, but it must have been

my teenage

years.

Well, I am thoroughly delighted that the Lord has called you and called you into the ministry,

and that you have been blessing the body of Christ and being used by him to draw the lost to salvation

globally, and it is my honor again and privilege to have you on the show, and in fact, I thank you for your

patience with me at the Banner of Truth Ministers Conference in Elizabethtown because I was becoming

somewhat of a stalker to you, and you graciously accepted my

invitation to be on the show and put me in touch with Kay, so I'm so delighted that this took

place, and by the way, for anybody listening who wants to get the audio of the

2018 Banner of Truth Ministers Conference, where Alistair Begg was one of the speakers,

you could go to banneroftruth .org, that's banneroftruth .org, and if you click on store,

you could type 2018 into the search engine, and that audio will be appearing on

your screen.

In fact, right now when you go to banneroftruth .org, that conference's audio is the very first thing you

see at the top of the screen anyway without doing anything other than going to the website.

Well, this book that you have written with Sinclair Ferguson, who Sinclair Ferguson has

a very special place in my life and heart.

When I was saved in the mid -1980s on Long Island, New York, at the Calvary Baptist Church

of Amityville, Long Island, which is now Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, but Calvary

Baptist Church was where I was saved, was where I was baptized, and where I was nurtured in the faith in those early years, and

Sinclair Ferguson was an annual or nearly an annual visitor to our church

when he was visiting the United States and preaching at various places, and I thank God that he

accepted the invitations to preach where I was a member, and I can still remember his series on

sin, Dealing with Remaining Sin was the conference series, but when this

book, the idea for this book came about, was this something that

Crossway had invited you and Sinclair to cooperate on together, or was this book, name above

all names, something that you and Sinclair had already discussed privately about doing together?

How did this come about?

Well, actually, the genesis of it was that Sinclair and I had been invited

to the

theme of

the conference for Lord Jesus Christ, and

after we, Sinclair and I had been talking

to him, I'd

been

assisting a huge undertaking at what we have

done that we

had.

Well, I know that

we're

not.

Going to likely have time to get to all of these different aspects of the names

of Christ and his roles as a second person of the Godhead, but

why don't we start with where you start in the book,.

With Jesus as

the

true

prophet?

Yeah, and

unfortunately,

just in many

places,

and so to be able to,

and for him to, and

now through that he

is a staggering

thought, and yet it is a tremendous

one, who Jesus is, and if you considered what Jesus had to say.

Well, let's move on to Jesus as the great high priest, and then we will go to a couple of

our listener questions.

We've already got people waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you, but let's move on to the great high priest,

which is obviously another very core essential truth about Christ, upon which our salvation

hinges.

Yes, absolutely.

I mean, obviously included in these chapters is the fact that

Jesus Christ fulfills the anticipated, and

the King, and the book of Hebrews,

all the work of that which had gone

before.

If what had been done before was sufficient, then there would be no need for anything else,

and then points out that Jesus has accomplished a once and for all atonement

for sin, that he has sat down at the right hand of the Father, that his work is finished, it is accomplished,

and that the message of the gospel is that we might come then to rest in that

finished work, that he

has found it to

be a tremendous

encouragement that whoever

lives and

to and

understanding of that, then it is a tremendous...

Amen.

Isn't this one of the very key and core issues that separates historic

reformational Protestantism from the Church of Rome, and of course we have to distinguish historic reformational

Protestantism from mainline apostasy that we see rampant within Protestantism, or at least that

label, but as far as the actual real reason that the reformers

either involuntarily or voluntarily separated from Rome, this was really at the core of it, wasn't it?

Yes, it absolutely was, and it's a message that many people are fudging now,

the idea of you know, making sure that

we're not

being... because what we're talking about is

to put right with God, and if the Roman Catholic plan had been...

then there would

have been no... and

say, you know, I'm not sure that the reformers... when,

you know, when in actual fact we stand

on their shoulders, and the blood of the martyrs is the seat of the Church in this regard,

and so yes, you're absolutely

right, and

the... do not understand that there's no...

we need to be on a work

that has to be

applied, and good

deeds there...

Amen.

And we have a

listener in Mechanicsburg,.

Pennsylvania named Gordy, and Gordy asks, in your opinion, is there a danger

in broader evangelicalism of referring to the name of Jesus in sort of a

nebulous way, void of substance, such as the magnificent ways described

in your book?

I think he meant to say as opposed to the magnificent ways described in your book.

It appears to result in an experiential love affair with Jesus that has no biblical foundation.

That is Gordy of Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

Yeah, well,

it's a

great

question,

isn't it,

and the one

who is becoming king, and so yes, to Gordy's

question, any

kind of

himself...

Amen.

Well, thank

you, Gordy.

You've won a

free copy

of.

The book, Name Above All Names, for contributing a question today.

Thanks to our friends at Crossway for donating those.

We have Duane...

I usually don't give a full name of a person, but this person is a colleague of mine in broadcasting,

Duane Atkinson, who is host of the BAR podcast in Greenville, South Carolina.

The BAR stands for Biblical and Reformed, and Duane, because he is a black brother,

he gets frustrated because people assume BAR stands for Black and Reformed, but it

stands for Biblical and Reformed, and Duane says,.

I haven't read the book Name Above All Names yet, but would love to.

My question is, in this book, what are some practical applications of knowing and

understanding Jesus' authority?

Yeah, that's good, isn't it?

Well, I think one of them is to realize that when we think about the

Jesus' authority, to speak, are not my own.

They are the words of... and

ultimately when we talk,

and so that

is, we come to the scriptures underneath the

lordship of Christ, and if Jesus Christ

freed him to believe anything, then that

word, Jesus,

united with... be united

with

of like mind to these...

Amen, and Duane has one more question.

He says, my 10 -year anniversary.

Is this Thursday.

I see you wrote a book called Lasting Love.

What tip or wisdom do you have for.

Me from the book, or not, for my next

10th, 20th, 30th, or

40th

anniversary?

Some

people have never

in my life, and so I want to encourage others along the same path.

Amen.

We actually have...

Oh,.

By the way, you've won a free copy of the book as well, Duane, so make sure we have your full mailing address in

Greenville, South Carolina, and Alistair, you should very seriously consider one day being a guest on the Barb

podcast.

It is excellent, and we thank Duane for his excellent work.

We have, in fact, we have our second guest, Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist

Church in Douglasville, Georgia, who is also the founder of the G3 Conference.

He has a question for you, as he's waiting in the wings to be our second guest.

He said, please ask Alistair Begg to describe the moment he was greatly impacted by a

high view of God's word and the preaching of.

Scripture.

Oh, the moment?

That's what he said.

Yeah, there have been so many moments.

I mean,.

Yeah, sorry.

He must be, I don't know if he's referring to a specific incident that occurred in your life that he heard about, but he said, describe the

moment he was greatly impacted by.

A

high view of

God's word

and the

preaching of

scripture.

Glasgow, a dramatic beginning.

He actually just emailed, that's it.

Okay, so you hit the nail on the head there.

Well, before we go, and I hope the next time you come on, if God enables that, that you're on for at least an hour, because this

has gone by way too quickly.

But I want you to tell our listeners something about what seems to be a fascinating

tour coming up that you're involved in with Salem Media.

I was employed by Salem for 15 years with their New York station,

WMCA, 570 AM.

And so tell us about this trip from Prague to Budapest and then to Northern Ireland.

Yeah, it begins,

and then we

get on

one of these, we begin our journey, then

eventually,

and

at the end of the month of August,

Banger Mission,

I think I do a couple of pastors events.

I do at least one of the evenings, play golf at

Newcastle County.

And then I come back in time for, God willing, in time to

tune in over in the Northern Ireland

there.

Yeah, we have a lot of listeners in the UK and Northern Ireland specifically,.

And in the Republic of Ireland.

So I hope that you will take note of that.

And I'm assuming that you get all the information for these events at truthforlife .org?

Yes.

Truthforlife .org, that is the website for Alistair Begg's global radio

ministry, Truth For Life.

And also, if you want more information about Parkside Church in Cleveland, Ohio, you can go to

parksidechurch .com, parksidechurch .com.

Alistair, it has been a joy, it has been an honor and a privilege.

I hope that we don't wait another decade before you come back on the program.

And I look forward to, God willing, frequent visits from you in the near future.

Thanks, Chris.

God bless you, brother.

Bye -bye.

And don't go away, folks, because for the remaining 90 minutes of the broadcast, we have Josh Bice

joining us.

Josh Bice, who is the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville,

Georgia.

He's also the founder of the G3 Conference, Grace, Gospel and Glory, which is what that stands for.

And we are going to be discussing a very controversial issue, but an issue that needs to be

discussed in the body of Christ, because even within conservative

Christianity, which adheres at least professedly to the inerrancy of scripture, there is

some debate and dispute and disagreement over gender roles in the

Bible, gender roles in the church and in our home, and even amongst those that would

profess to be a part of a narrower view of that, those who would profess to be complementarian in their understanding of that.

So we will be having Pastor Bice join us momentarily just after this quick break from our

sponsors so that we could enter into that discussion.

Our email address, if you have a question of your own, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I could readily understand that that would be the case with many of you who may have a different view of gender

roles than your own congregation or your pastor or your denomination or your fellowship.

But we will, God willing, be right back after this brief break with more of the program and with

Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church.

So please don't go away.

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And Mike Gaydosh, my dear friend for many years, my first pastor as a born

-again Christian who plunged me beneath the waters of baptism, and thankfully raised me back up

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brother in Christ is to me.

Well, he has given me permission to extend to you publicly a prayer request for him, a very serious

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Mike is facing some very serious and life -threatening heart surgery,

and right now it seems that the decision as to who will perform

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Trip and Zion Radio to tell you all about his experience, God willing.

So please pray for my dear friend Mike Gaydosh, and I know that Mike Gaydosh is no stranger to my guest right

now, Pastor Josh Bice, because he has manned book tables for Solid Ground Christian books at a

number of the G3 conferences, has he not, Pastor Josh?

Absolutely, he sure has.

Yeah, so please keep Mike in prayer.

Well, I am so delighted to have back on the program one of my favorite guests, Pastor Josh

Bice.

Pastor Josh Bice, who I have said earlier, is an author, conference speaker, and pastor at Praise

Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, and he's the founder and director of the G3 Conference, which stands for Grace,

Gospel, and Glory.

And Pastor Josh, before we go into any other matters, why don't you tell our listeners about the G3

Conference?

We've been really promoting it very heavily on the show for quite a while, but for those of our listeners who may

be even tuning in for the first time, it seems we get new listeners joining our audience every day.

If you could let our listeners know about the G3 Conference, and specifically about the 2019 G3 Conference.

We're happy to do that, Chris.

So the G3 Conference, as you've already stated, stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory, and it's a theology

conference each January in the Atlanta area, and it was originally created,

established to be an encouragement to local churches in the Atlanta area, and the

first year we had sold out attendance at our local church, and a

waiting list was established.

We had college students sleeping in their cars in January, so we had to,

you know, invite them to my home to sleep in our guest bedroom, and that was sort of the way things

started out from year number one, and so for the first four years, it was here on our local

church campus until we decided that in 2017, we would move to a convention

center here in the Atlanta area, and so the conference, God has grown it from year number

one to really turn it into a national conference that first year, and so people not just

from Atlanta were coming, but people from all over the nation and outside of the nation, and so now we

have somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 ,000 last year, and then this year we're anticipating

as many as 4 ,000 to 5 ,000.

So this coming up conference is going to be centered on the

theme of the mission of God, and so it's a biblical understanding of mission, and so

we're going to have many different preachers who are going to be here to discuss that

from ministries, help the mission

of God, the proclamation of the gospel, church planting, but what is the role

of the local church?

And so we're going to be talking about those things, and those particular points will be developed

throughout the weekend, so it's going to be a great time, and so we encourage you to join us if possible.

Yes, and we'll be repeating this,.

But the website is G3conference .com.

G3conference .com.

I am so excited about it.

This has become my favorite conference of all, and this will be my third conference at the G3

conference, where I am manning an Iron, Sharp, and Zion exhibitors booth, and the Lord has used my

presence there in some remarkable ways for Iron, Sharp, and Zion

radio.

In fact, the last one where I was manning a booth, the First

Love Publications and First Love Radio ministry was right next to my booth,

and the individual who is the founder of that ministry, Pastor Joe Jackowitz, invited

me out to lunch, and he said, we want you to be our flagship program

here on First Love Radio, and within about three or four weeks or so, I was

on that network, First Love Radio, and that is as a result of God using my

presence there at the G3 conference to bring that about.

So I'm so excited about what God has in store in January.

Yeah, and I've met so many new listeners that I had never

met before or heard from before.

I've met face -to -face for the first time many people who are regular

questioners on Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio, and I have also met a couple of people who have become

sponsors of the show, so it's really, I'm excited about it.

And also, folks, don't forget that you can not only register to be an attender

of the G3 conference by going to g3conference .com, you can also register for an exhibitor's booth,

and just like I will be manning, God willing, and can you tell our listeners something about that

aspect of it, Pastor Josh?

I know that you don't just let anybody man an exhibitor's booth, so if you could tell us what would be the

requirements of that, at least in summary form, and anything else our listeners need to know.

We may have a church, a parachurch ministry, a business, or some kind of a special event they're promoting

that they would like to promote amongst the four to five thousand people at the G3 conference at an exhibitor's booth.

Yeah, so to be an exhibitor at the G3, you would need to fill out an application.

You can find that on the g3conference .com website, and we would simply review

that application.

To be an exhibitor, we would simply need to feel comfortable that that

organization would be in the neighborhood of our,

not just a Christian, someone who embraces Christ, but someone

that we can put our stamp of approval on, someone that we believe would be beneficial to local

churches and the believers who will be present at the conference.

So, you know, we would like for someone to fit within our framework of doctrine

and be closely knit with us.

So, you know, as you well know, Chris, we have people who are Reformed Baptists, we have people who are

just general SBC churches, we have Presbyterian churches, but we

want people to know up front that, you know, we're standing on a Reformed tradition

at this conference, and so, you know, if you're coming from some other vantage point or theological distinction, it

probably would not be a good idea for you to be present.

In that capacity.

In that capacity.

Obviously, you want Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims and Mormons to be in the audience.

Absolutely.

Right.

And just to relieve a little bit of the anxiety for anybody wanting to register for a booth,

I'm assuming that you would be somewhat more lenient towards a ministry

that may not be a five -point Calvinist ministry, but is involved in a

specific ministry that has more of a universal need

and approach and mission.

Like, for instance, let me just off the top of my head, like some kind of a Christian adoption agency or something like that,

where the theology behind the great divide between Reformed and

Arminian is not necessarily involved at all in what they're doing.

Would I be correct in that?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

In fact,.

We want to be clear.

We don't think that if you're not a Calvinist, that you're not a Christian.

That's not at all what we believe.

So we work with people who certainly don't share the same distinctions that we would hold to

in those various different capacities.

So yeah, I mean, we have various organizations each year that will be at the conference who would fit into

that very.

Category.

All right.

Well, we've done this every time you've come on the program, but as I said, we have new listeners joining us every day.

I get contacted from all over the world from people who have never heard the program until recently.

And so tell our listeners about, in summary, Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

Yes, so Praise Mill Baptist Church,.

A 76 -year -old church that is located just west of Atlanta, Georgia.

I grew up here as a boy, my wife grew up here as a girl in the church, so we met as

children.

We eventually married, and I moved away, we both moved away

to attend seminary.

So I went to Louisville, Kentucky, to attend the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and in God's

providence, seven years later, He would call me back to serve the church where we grew up as children.

So it's been an absolute joy, a privilege of mine to serve the people who served us as

children, to preach the gospel on a weekly basis to those very people.

Just yesterday at two o 'clock, I had the privilege of preaching a funeral for one of

the women who, you know, was a long -time member of this church and served us and

encouraged us as children.

And so, you know, the circle of ministry is quite

unique in God's providence for us here in this role, but God has certainly been gracious to us, and it's

a privilege to be a pastor in this particular church.

Praise God.

And for anybody who.

Wants more information, and we'll be repeating this later as well, but for anybody who wants more information about Praise Mill Baptist Church in

Douglasville, Georgia, if you happen to live in that area or plan on visiting there or have friends, family, and loved ones

living there, you want to refer them to this church.

It's PraiseMill .com, P -R -A -Y -S -Mill .com, P

-R -A -Y -S -Mill .com.

And once again, Pray was the name of the man who offered up his

property or his land to plant the very first congregation there, right?

First Baptist Church.

Well, we are going to be going to a midway break right now.

This is a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City,

Florida, which actually adopted Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as a result of me meeting them two

years ago at the G3 conference.

They have been airing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in a rerun form every single day, twice a day,

in morning drive and evening drive ever since I met them at the G3 conference

in 2016.

But because of the fact that they require an elongated break between our two major segments because they air their own

commercials and public service announcements and other things, this is a longer than normal break.

So please use this time to not only write down questions for our guest

Josh Bice of Praise Middle Baptist Church on the theme of complementarianism,

but also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers.

Because the more you patronize and support our advertisers, the more they will

likely, the longer they will likely remain as paying advertisers to keep this program on the air.

So we would really appreciate that if you take the time to write down their information as well.

So don't go away, God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with more of Pastor

Josh Bice and the theme today, complementarianism.

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We are going to be returning any moment with our guest today, Pastor Josh Bice

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He's also the founder and director of the G3 Conference, and we are going to be discussing the

need for further clarity on the complementarian view of gender roles in the church and home

when we return to that discussion.

But we just have a few more important announcements to make before we return to that discussion.

First of all, coming up very soon, August 2nd through the 4th, the

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in Denton, Texas.

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Pastor Jesse Barrington, who is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, which happens to be

the sister church or a sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, who

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scroll down to the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, and the theme once again is the glory of the cross.

Please tell the folks at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals that you heard about the conference from Chris

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and 10th at the conference, so please greet me during the breaks while you're there if you register.

Then coming up in January, the event that I have been raving about for

weeks now, and in fact for years now if you take into consideration the other G3

conferences that I've been promoting, but I'm so delighted that once again I will be manning

an Iron Sherpa's Iron exhibitor's booth at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia,

specifically in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, at the Georgia International

Convention Center, and the theme is on missions, as we had mentioned

earlier, and the speakers.

Once again, there's a very long lineup of very impressive speakers, which include, God willing,

Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever,

Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson, who is the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry,

grace to you, Josh Bice, who is my guest today, the founder of the G3 conference, and

Anthony Mathenia, who happens to be Paul Washer's pastor, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio,

and the list goes on.

There are many more involved on that roster.

If you would like to join me at the G3 conference in January of 2019, and

specifically, by the way, it will be held, God willing, from Thursday, January 17th through Saturday,

January 19th, and with a special Spanish -speaking edition, a special

Spanish conference on Wednesday, January 16th, so everybody that you know in Spanish ministry, or whether

they are Spanish -speaking or bilingual, perhaps you should, in fact, you definitely should let them know

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Without you folks, we couldn't remain on the air.

But now we are back with our discussion with Pastor Josh Bice of the G3 Conference in the Praise Mill Baptist

Church in Douglasville, Georgia.

And our theme, as I mentioned earlier, is a need for further clarity on the complementarian view of gender roles in

the church and home.

And if you would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen

at gmail .com.

Pastor Josh, obviously, this is a highfalutin, fancy book -learning word,

book -learning word, as they say, complementarian.

If you could define that for our listeners who don't know what we're talking about.

Absolutely.

Complementarianism,.

Actually, they

have

very distinct roles that God has rooted in creation.

And so, while they're both created man and woman is created equal in

value as image -bearers of God, there are specific roles that God has

designed for the man to carry out that the woman is not created to carry out, and vice

versa.

So that's the idea that we see rooted not in a modern understanding of

roles, but it's actually rooted in creation itself.

So obviously, and of course, let's just say that to contrast this, there

are egalitarians, as they are known, some would even call them

Christian feminists, some would even identify themselves as Christian feminists.

But there are those who have varying degrees of parity in

roles within the egalitarian camp.

Some believe that there are absolutely no distinctions between the genders in regard to their

roles.

Some would believe that although a man is to be the head of his household,

that women can still pursue the highest levels of office within church polity.

They can be pastors, they can be senior pastors, even though some of those distinctions aren't really

biblical.

And of course, you have those that are in disagreement over whether or not women can be

deacons in the church.

And sometimes that has to do with whether or not the deacon role in that specific congregation or

denomination bears a connection with authority over

men.

Because as you may well know, even our very conservative brother in

Christ and modern day hero John MacArthur, he has women in the deaconate at Grace Community

Church in Sun Valley, California, but they do not have authority over men in the church.

They are servants there.

But if you could, if there's anything further you have to say about the view that is contrasted with

complementarianism known as egalitarianism.

No, I mean, I think that that's a good overview.

I mean, I think that I think the rub between the two positions becomes, what is

the actual role that God intends for women to carry out?

And so you would have the complementarian who would say, that's very clear in Scripture from beginning to end,

from Genesis to Revelation, we see a clear understanding of those roles.

And so the egalitarian would say, well, it's not clear, and women should be empowered to

the highest levels of leadership in various capacities, whether it be culture, or whether it be the

home, or whether it be the local church.

And so, again, as you've mentioned, there are differing positions, even within both

camps.

But what I would like to talk about today focuses on what I would say is an assault

on complementarianism in the evangelical circles.

And it's becoming more and more apparent that there's a push to empower women in our

present day.

And so we just need to ask an honest question, do we really stand on

biblical complementarianism, or do we not?

And so should we redefine these positions?

Have we really oppressed women?

I think that that's a valid question that we need to consider as we think about these very arguments.

Yes.

Now, I'm assuming, I could be wrong,.

But I'm assuming because of the fact of the way that you specifically worded the theme today, a

need for further clarity on complementarianism, that you believe that there

are those who identify themselves as complementarian, but perhaps who have drifted

from the core meaning.

And parameters of what that actually means.

Yeah, absolutely.

So you have, or you

have, you know, the evangelical culture that was very much confused on the inerrancy of

the Bible.

And so you have this massive push back in the 70s,

leading through the Southern Baptist Convention and other evangelical circles, over a battle for the

Bible.

You know, is the Bible inerrant or is it not?

And so you have conservatives that would suggest that the totality of scripture is

God breathed.

And then you would have liberals that would say, well, no, the Bible contains the word of God.

And so there was this confusing distinction between the liberal and the conservative on the

subject of the Bible.

Yes.

And so eventually they started to

champion the idea of, you know, the sufficiency and the validity of God's word.

And so from that, we started to see a move back to scripture.

I would say the Bible is able to give for us these distinctions and show us,

you know, what it means to worship God.

And so we see this clear understanding of these different aspects of both

life and worship for men.

I mean, you have

people like...

I'm sorry if I'm laughing at that, but it is kind of funny.

Yeah, I

mean, she would say

things like that,

and so

it's fashion

the woman and

join them

together in the Garden of Eden.

The design of leadership

as far as male leadership rooted in creation, it was not a

result of...

I mean, the militant

feminist was arguing years ago, and by the way,

inside of

the home.

Yeah.

You think about the fact

that today

we have women back,

how

that...

have we held them back from doing

exactly what God has called them to do?

And that's the question.

Now, we do have a listener.

We have Susan Margaret in Delfin County, Pennsylvania, who asks, how

specifically are those who identify themselves as complementarian

violating the true principles of complementarianism and making protest or

drifting from the parameters of that definition.

Of church polity and even home life?

Yeah, that's a fantastic question.

Southern Baptist, we try to, as a church, partner within the

big tent, if you will, of the Southern Baptist Convention, about 47 ,000 churches.

We don't all agree, and we certainly as a local church don't agree with much of what takes place

within the Southern Baptist Convention, but we try to partner within that group, if you will, as

much as possible to accomplish missions and to accomplish church planting and Christian

education through good seminaries like the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

But today, you know, in a recent day, we have a debate that's moving

its way through the Southern Baptist Convention when you have certain leaders or certain voices within the

convention.

For instance, there's a particular voice within the Southern Baptist Convention who

suggested that he would actually have nominated at the convention in this

this past June, he would have actually nominated Beth Moore to be the

president of the convention, but he said in a tweet that was on June

the 2nd, 2018, he said that tradition, sexism, fear, and other non

-biblical factors would probably prevent any woman from having or from being

elected as the president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

So when you hear that type of language, you hear other leaders within the Southern

Baptist Convention suggesting that there is no reason whatsoever that a

woman should not serve as the president of the convention.

We're starting to ask questions about what does it mean to then

have authority over men, and so that takes us back to, you know, 1 Timothy chapter 2, and we

need to develop and vary letters.

Now, does Beth Moore have an egalitarian view of her ability to.

Be something like the president of the SBC or local congregation?

Well, it's kind of a mixed bag,.

If you will.

So Beth Moore would say that she rejects any idea that she could

serve in the office of an elder, okay?

So she doesn't see that she fits the qualification for that particular office.

But she would absolutely say that women could get

positioned in a convention of churches like the Southern Baptist Convention, for instance, because

it's not occupying the actual office of elder.

But the question becomes, when she takes that office and she is in a leadership

capacity where she's organizing business affairs for 47 ,000 churches at

an annual meeting, when she's being invited to speak in chapel services at, you know,

the Southern Baptist schools or seminaries, when she's actually being

invited to speak in various churches and that type of thing, is she

violating 1 Timothy 2 .12 in holding authority over men in that capacity?

And I would actually say that that is a violation of 1 Timothy 2, but she would say that that's.

Not a violation.

Let me ask you a question of my own that I was

surprised to discover was a belief amongst

conservative, theologically reformed brothers in Christ that I

have gained much from and gleaned much from in their writings, in their

conference messages, their sermons.

I was surprised, I'm not going to mention names, but during lunch break at conferences, sometimes I speak

to some of these men who will say, well, though I don't believe a woman can be

a senior pastor, I don't believe the Bible would prohibit her from being an

elder or from teaching adult men in a Bible study, a

regularly held Bible study.

And I have responded, well, there is no such thing, technically, as a senior pastor in the

scriptures.

I mean, as far as I can see, there's two offices.

There's elder and deacon, and elder would be the same thing as a pastor.

Now, I understand that churches, congregations, do make

a distinguishing office from senior to assistant or associate

pastor.

In fact, the church where I'm a member does.

But to say that a woman cannot be a senior pastor but be an elder or associate

pastor, that's really destroying the biblical qualifications

in the New Testament for being a shepherd or an overseer in the church, isn't it?

It absolutely is, because when you go to the text in 1 Timothy 3, and you see that

first paragraph for the qualifications of the elder, it's

actually very closely related to the next paragraph, which is the qualification for the

second office, which is that of deacon.

But the distinguishing difference is that the first paragraph, you see that one of the

qualifications is that he must be able to teach.

And so it doesn't matter if you're the main preaching elder in the church, or if you're, you

know, if you're an elder in the church who isn't the main preaching pastor, the fact of the matter is simply

this, you have to meet those qualifications.

And so when you have that an overseer must be above reproach, he must be

the husband of one wife, and then he goes on down and actually talks about the fact that his own

household must be managed well with dignity, keeping his children in

submission.

How can a woman actually fulfill those roles?

And again, that's that distinction of role that God has rooted in creation.

And so from the home in creation, and in the garden, the management there,

to the home, and then eventually to the local church, as we see that role playing its

way out through redemptive history, and through Scripture itself,

to put a woman in the office of 1 Timothy 3 and

Titus chapter 1.

And we have to go to our break right now.

It's our last break,.

And it's a very brief break.

If you would like to ask a question of our guest, Pastor Josh Bice, you want to get in line with those who are already

waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

I would highly advise you do so immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and please only remain anonymous if your question

involves a personal and private matter.

By the way, Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, you have won a free copy of the book that we

were discussing during the first half hour, Name Above All Names by Alistair Begg and Dr. Sinclair Ferguson.

Since the time went by so quickly during the first half hour, we still have some books left over, so you have won

a free copy of that book.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com can ship that out to you.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Josh Bice of the G3 Conference right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and we are now conducting our last 25 minutes or so of our interview with Pastor

Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, who is also the founder and director of the G3

Conference.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, do so now or forever hold your peace, because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And it is quite timely, providential, and a little bit humorous, Josh, that I just got an

email from the gospel coalition Women in the Local Church.

They're having a special women's gathering on that issue.

So I don't know if we would agree or disagree or have a mixture of both with that event, but it was just,

I found it kind of providentially.

Humorous.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, again, that goes back to what we had discussed earlier is that there's a big push today

about empowerment.

And so this idea of we need to somehow empower women today.

And so as I think through these things, I think for me, it really just centers on this idea that

femininity is not a bad thing, but feminism is a bad thing.

And masculinity is not a bad thing, but male domination and

abuse of headship is absolutely sinful.

But the idea that we somehow today in evangelicalism need to repent of

the oppression of women, I just simply can't see that.

And so there may be certain areas where we can say, certain examples

that certain organizations or maybe even denominations have

held back women in some capacity.

But as I see it today, women are free in Christ to serve in the way that God has

created and designed them.

And so for us to somehow redefine what that role looks like today to

fit into a modern definition in our modern culture, I think would be a severe mistake.

So in other words, to empower women to roles that God never

designed them to occupy would be detrimental, I think, for evangelicals moving

forward.

We have a listener, John in Bangor, Maine, who asked a question that I remember others have asked

you before when you've been on the show.

He asks, I am not saying this question because I disagree with some of the members

of your speaking roster, but I'm just curious how you would defend it knowing of your complementarian position.

I know that looking at your website, you have Cindy Curran and Martha Peace speaking in

2019.

And in the past, you have had Rosaria Butterfield and other women speak on the roster.

How is this possible when you're holding a complementarian view that you believe is.

Historically accurate and biblically accurate?

That's a very valid question, so I want to thank the gentleman for

asking that question.

When it comes to the G3 Conference, as well as our own local church, we are happy to

create an atmosphere for investment in women, to have certain

women come that could be an encouragement to women who might be there, such as pastor's wives or

maybe single women, missionaries, and various other types of situations that might

be found in the conference setting.

So what we do is we invite women, such as Rosaria Butterfield or Cindy Curran or someone like that,

to come in to speak specifically to women.

And so the idea is not to invite that woman or that particular individual to

stand on the platform and to open the Bible and to exposit Scripture.

That's not the goal of that

type of violating Scripture, because we're creating that

atmosphere specifically for women's.

Involvement in the G3.

We have Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks, do you believe that there are

professed complementarians who are in their hearts

egalitarian and are coming into our midst by stealth to try to make

radical changes while still remaining under the label complementarian?

Wow, that's a very good question.

So I like the way that the question is framed.

I actually do believe that that is true.

I do believe that there are people who are saying, we believe in

complementarianism, pushing the boundaries.

And so what I mean by that, let me give you an example.

When you have the example that I used earlier about

the whole controversy over biblical inerrancy, back in the day, you had people that would say, do

you believe in inerrancy?

And they would say, the Bible is that

the Bible is the Word of God.

And they would say, well, I believe that the Bible contains the Word of God.

And so they would try to get around the question while affirming a view of inerrancy.

And so they were really rejecting inerrancy altogether.

And I think that what we have today is we have people who say, I believe in complementarianism, but

they really believe in something other than what I

believe we need to really get down to business

and complementarianism.

And so the idea that women can teach or preach to a mixed audience, even in a

local church, so long as she's not occupying the actual office of elder,

and they say, well, I'm coming under

the authority of the elder who invited me.

And they use language like that.

I find that very concerning.

I find it a bit deceptive.

And I just think that it's time that we define these lines.

Clearly from the scripture.

We have Sicily, which is, as we've been told, a Dutch name,

very unusual name, Sicily.

He is in Ponoka, Alberta, Canada.

And he asked, what would Pastor Bice recommend is a good starting point and pointers

to have a discussion with egalitarians, and hopefully swing them to believe the

authority of the Bible and the proper view of the issue?

Thank you, brothers.

Yeah, that's a really good question.

Well, again, I think that our authority comes not from our opinions.

It doesn't come from creeds and confessions.

It doesn't come from statements of faith or anything else.

It comes from the scriptures.

And so if we're going to have a conversation over these matters, I think that the best way to do it would be to

ground that discussion in the Bible, and to take people back to the created order

itself, and to show where God created these distinctions, these role distinctions

of male headship, and the submission and the leadership of women,

submission to their, in the Garden of Eden,

prior to.

And if you will, I think one of the critical junctures is to go to

Genesis 3, and see where the serpent actually came not to Adam, but

he actually came to Eve.

And what we see there is it's the very first time that we find a

woman taking authority over her husband, and making a decision to eat of that very fruit

that was forbidden by God himself.

And that's where sin entered the world, and death by sin.

And so when we think about having this discussion, I think

it's traced from Genesis 3, really Genesis

chapter 1, the New Testament.

And then you see the very same distinctions, those role distinctions, as God instituted that creation,

we see them playing their way out in the life of the local church.

And so you really can't get around this idea of male coming to the

actual qualification.

Timothy 3, Titus chapter 1,

rooted there in those texts, well that's connected back to Genesis.

And so I think we have to push this conversation in the Bible itself.

We have Christopher from Suffolk County, New York, who asks,

forgive me if you've already addressed this, but I have heard some women,

and also those that agree with an egalitarian view who are men, say that a woman is

not to usurp or steal the authority of a man in the

church.

But other than that, if she is elected by the congregation, she has the freedom to

pursue.

And ascend to the ranks of overseer, pastor, and

elder.

For

the

church if

they

so

desire, to God's word.

Yeah, it doesn't mean they're

going to be able to evade God's

wrath either.

Absolutely.

But the fact of the matter is simply this, a church or any group of people can make a

decision

to do

whatever

they so desire.

And so

you

see, you

see God

through

the New Testament, the church

vote somehow evades.

Amen.

Let's see here, we have

Christian.

In Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And Christian asks, when we as men pick up a book by a sister in

Christ and learn from it, and applaud it and share it and promote it, are

we violating.

Complementarian rules?

Well, that's really the question.

There are different positions that people take, even

with this.

And they'll believe that if a man reads a book

that's written by a woman, where she cites scripture, that she's somehow holding authority over

that man.

For one, there is, it's not, the

actual truth is rooted in God's word.

And again, when we think about the fact that she's not actually

preaching and teaching to the men, the man's reading the stuff is

not found in her as the source, it's found in God himself.

So personally, my own personal opinion is that I don't think that you're violating scripture by reading a book,

choosing to pick up a book and read what a woman has written.

But I do think that when it comes to the actual proclamation of the word and the assembly of

the believers together for the purpose of learning and worshiping God,

occupies that post of preaching the Bible would then be a violation.

Now, that doesn't mean that a woman can go to a Bible study and have a conversation with other men

who might be there.

So I don't think that that's at all a violation of scripture itself.

So again, we have all of these differing positions.

Again, you have some that would say that it's a conversion

and a

violation of the text of scripture.

And again, I wouldn't necessarily suggest that that's true.

So that's a great question.

I would say it is a violation.

And for that reason, there are many men who would not read a book that was written by a woman.

I just simply disagree on that particular point.

Yeah, I remember clearly, I was at a.

Worship service.

And I was standing next to a brother who, when we were

singing a hymn, and he realized that the author of the hymn, it may have been Fannie Crosby

or some other woman, when he realized that he was singing a hymn written by a woman, he actually threw

the hymnal on the floor.

Now, that's going into a level of complementarianism that's a bit deranged, isn't it?

Absolutely, absolutely.

Again, all truth is God's truth force of that particular

author.

And so I think that you can definitely grow by reading a book

that was written by a woman.

And I think that that can be something that is very much a healthy thing.

Yeah.

And going back to the book question, because if you're

reading a book where a woman is either much wiser or more intelligent or

learned than you, or who has just seen something in the scripture that you've overlooked,

or she's citing something from history that you didn't know about, you are learning from her, you are being

taught by her.

But the difference is that you are not bound to be under her authority in

any way.

She is not in the place of the role of a teacher in the

church.

You are voluntarily picking up that book and learning from it.

Isn't that one of the.

That would be different?

Oh, absolutely.

So I believe that.

And again, when we talk about

complementarianism, we're not

at all right, somehow.

In fact, there are many women from

the

beginning, God, that

word to Dasko and

the Greek.

Again, that has in mind the actual authoritative transmission

proclamation, if you will, of that

text.

And another thing,

I mean, I know that there.

Are women who may be offended by this, and there is absolutely no intent behind that.

But I'm just trying to convey with clarity the fact that you could read

and learn from someone and not violate a biblical principle.

Because even, for instance, if a gifted teenager

were to write something, even his

parents and those who are his elders could learn from that

and benefit from it, even though this child is in a

position of submission over not only his own parents, but the elders in the church and so on.

So therefore, there's no violation there if you are voluntarily picking up a book.

And I'm not saying that we are to look upon women as children.

I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying that you could prove that the concept of

being taught by someone who is not an authority over you, in a technical sense,

is still valid in the realm.

Of reading a book or other ways of conveying thought.

And I would agree with

that it could actually be profitable to any man would

be...

Well, I want to make

sure within the next three.

Minutes that you really summarize what you most etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to

this subject of complementarianism and being more clear as to what we believe about.

This issue.

Well, Chris, I'm really passionate about just standing firm on the Bible.

And so when we look at today's evangelical world, we see what I would say is a social

justice agenda.

And so there's this idea that we have oppressed women, we've oppressed people of color,

and we've oppressed LGBT individuals.

And you see that in our culture type of

language coming into the local church or coming into evangelical circles and organizations.

So now there's this idea that we

need to somehow empower these women.

We need to empower people of color or empower these individuals to these levels

of leadership.

And that's certainly not so.

I think it's a danger for us to actually think that way.

And so what we need to do is we need to actually stand on the Word of God.

So to empower people to positions that God did not call them to, I think is to

our detriment.

I think it implies when we say we need to empower someone,

we are implying that we have somehow held them back.

And so that's what I'm fearful of, is this idea that we've held people back from what God

actually has called them to do.

So I hope that makes sense.

I don't know what happened to your voice, Pastor Josh, but you're very muffled right now.

Well, we've somehow lost Pastor Bice.

Can you hear me?

Yes, now I can, yeah.

And of course, to make it clear, you're not saying, obviously, people of all skin colors

and ethnic origins have the same level of opportunity as whites in the

scriptures.

A black man or Hispanic man or an Asian man or a Native American man can be

a pastor over an.

White congregation if he is called to do so.

Absolutely.

The thing that I'm concerned about today is this idea of social justice, so that

there's a lot of sympathy where people are suggesting that we need to fight for the oppressed.

We need to fight and stand for the oppressed woman that's been held back, or the oppressed

person of color that's been held back, or now we're suggesting, at least our culture is,

is that we need to stand and defend the oppressed, you know, homosexual.

And what we need to do is we need to just stand on the scriptures, and we need to ask ourselves an honest question.

Have we held back in evangelical circles, have we held back women from

serving in the capacity that God has designed them to occupy those roles?

And if we're honest with ourselves, and we believe that we need to be using women in the life of a

local church for discipleship, for the purpose of training younger women, for the purpose

of working in their homes, and we start start looking at what the Bible actually teaches,

I think that we don't have a reason to apologize.

I think that we have this conversation of empowerment, and it's somehow a

veiled, pragmatic, you know, goal that we have to use

sympathy to maybe grow organizations, or to get spotlight in particular areas, so that we can say that

we champion the idea of equality of men and women.

Well, we actually do, but we want to make sure that we're not violating the actual role distinction that God has

rooted in creation.

Amen.

And we're out of time, and I want to make sure that our listeners have all the information they need to get a hold of you,

and to learn more about your church and your conference.

I know that Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, once again, their website is

praysmill .com, praysmill .com,

and the G3 conference is g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

If you could hold on the line, Pastor Josh, I want to say a proper goodbye to you off the air, and I want to thank you so

much for being our guest today.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the

rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.