Andy Naselli Interview

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.�

In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the

Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King. Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, glad to be your host today. As you know, the format goes like this.

Mondays, it�s usually a sermon that I�ve preached at Bethlehem Bible Church. From the church there, on Tuesdays, I talk with my associate pastor,

Steve Cooley, and we discuss local issues in the church, trends, that kind of thing.

Thursdays, we have a positive kind of what is confession, what is the act of obedience of Christ, something like that, a doctrine that you need to know.

Then Fridays, we�re usually trying to discern, critique, that kind of thing. But on Wednesdays, my favorite day, we have interviews with pastors, teachers, theologians that you need to know about, and many of you already do know about those folks.

So today, we have on the line Andy Nasselli. He is a professor at Bethlehem College and Seminary.

Andy, welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. Thanks for having me, Mike. Andy, give us a little background of what you do there at Bethlehem College and Seminary and how long you�ve been there.

Sure. Bethlehem College and Seminary is in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and it�s a church -based college and seminary that is based out of Bethlehem Baptist Church, which is where John Piper pastored for over 30 years.

And John Piper is our chancellor, and he still teaches there. So we get to, I just met with him this week at a faculty meeting, so he�s still very much involved there.

So what I do is primarily shepherd the seminary guys, and we have a mentoring -type relationship where we have cohorts of just about 15 seminary men come each year, and it�s a four -year program, so it�s always rotating, 15 in, graduate about 15.

And that�s the love for my life and these guys, and I hope to be here 30 years.

Andy, it�s fairly snowy in Minnesota, to say the least, but you�ve also made tours in Boston, and Boston is close by here to Worcester.

Why were you in Boston? Oh, I grew up all over the country, because my dad�s job was changing to get promoted to different workplaces, and we lived in two different places in the

Boston area. One was Framingham, and one was East Bridgewater. So I think I was in my sophomore and junior years of high school, way back then.

Well, I don�t hear any New England accent, so� No, no. But I love that accent.

Now, you describe yourself on your blog, andynaselly .com, as conservative, confessional, evangelical

Christian. I think those are words that you put there on purpose.

Tell us a little bit about those words and why they matter. Yeah, okay. So I grew up, actually started off Mormon, and my mom divorced and remarried my stepdad who raised me,

Charles Maselli, and then we became Christians and started attending a Southern Baptist church. And then we moved about six years later and started attending what�s called a fundamentalist church, the type of churches that send people to schools like Bob Jones University.

And that�s part of how I grew up. So when I went to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and having my background in that, and I even went to Bob Jones University, I�m grateful for that,

I thought it would be helpful to put together a book that had the spectrum of evangelicalism. So it was one of these four views debate books that Zonderman does, and I edited that with Colin Hansen, and the four views are fundamentalism, conservative or confessional evangelicalism, and then a more mainstream, generic evangelicalism, and then a more extreme view, and it�s post -conservative evangelicalism.

And in that spectrum, I�m most comfortable with the first two.

It depends how you define terms and such. So I find I can call myself an evangelical or a fundamentalist in certain contexts, depending on what people who hear me think

I mean by that, and if I have time to define my terms. So by conservative and confessional,

I�m just saying I believe in the inertia of Scripture, I hold to orthodox doctrine, and I don�t want the baggage that most people hear associated with fundamentalism, if that makes sense.

Perfect. Now, you were a research manager or assistant for D .A. Carson for several years.

I mean, I would love to just pick your brain about that. What was the best part of being an assistant for him, a research manager?

Yeah, so I�ve been working with Don for almost 10 years, and it�s been wonderful.

He was my supervisor for my Ph .D. at Trinity in New Testament. We just spent the last four -plus years working together on an

NIV study Bible, so he�s the general editor and I�m the assistant editor, so I�ve managed the project. And he�s been like a grandfather figure, just giving advice along the way, and fantastic.

I view him kind of like a law student might view a Supreme Court justice, getting declared for him.

I just learned so much about evangelicalism and scholarship and publishing and serving the

Church. I love him so much, and I respect him highly. Well, we�re talking to Annie Nasselli today on No Compromise Radio.

Years ago, probably 30 years ago, S. Lewis Johnson, Jr. said of Don Carson that he was one of the most promising young theologians of his generation, and that turned out to be true.

And I think, in all honesty, we�re talking to Annie Nasselli today, who is, in my opinion, one of the promising � since I�m older than you,

I can call you � young theologians of our age. So I�m glad you�re on the show today. As a

Christian, there�s a desire for holiness and sanctification.

Christ has saved us, and it�s been a monergistic work of a triune

God who has loved us. And since we�re now declared righteous and we�ve been born again, we want to learn.

We want to grow in grace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus. Andy, you�ve specialized,

I think, in sanctification and written a book about it, Let Go and Let God, and some wonderful articles.

Tell us� I�m trying to make sure you�ve inflected the question mark. It�s �Let Go and Let God�s question mark.� You know, that�s what radio hosts do.

I mean, they just go on and on and on. And so, tell us, what is sanctification, and why is it important?

Then we�ll get into some nuances later. Sure. Okay. I prefer to call it �progressive sanctification� instead of just �sanctification.�

I know systematic theologians will have shorthand for this, so often they�ll have three different tenses where there�s � in the

Bible, there are three different tenses of �past, present, and future sanctification.� And that �past� is a definitive sanctification, so when

Paul writes to the Corinthians, he addresses it to the church at Corinth, those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints.

And if you read the rest of the letter, they�re doing stuff that saints shouldn�t be doing, but they�re still saints. So there�s a sense in which every

Christian is sanctified. And then there�s a future sense in which we all will be fully sanctified, after glorification.

But when you use the word �sanctification ,� of course you�re referring to, in between those two points, as we grow in Christian life, the word �sanctification� is what most

Christians understand to be just �Christian growth.� So, what does it mean, what does it look like to grow, to mature as a

Christian? I think that�s how you�re using the term. Right, and so there�s a variety of different philosophies, or theologies, that are kind of competing.

And when I grew up, I grew up in the kind of Keswick theology, and �let go and let

God ,� and was a new Christian, and Andrew Murray, and Francis Havergal, some of those people would come to mind.

What is Keswick? And by the way, I don�t know the answer to this question. Why don�t we pronounce the �W� or a �V� sound?

Why is it not Keswick or Kesvick? Why do we say Keswick, first of all? It�s spelled K -E -S -W -I -C -K, and it�s the name of a place in England.

And it�s like, why do you pronounce it Worcester, it�s just how they say it over there, Keswick. All right, and so when we have a desire to grow and to learn, but then we can fall into some maybe shortcuts.

People want to get maybe slain in the spirit or something, they have a desire to learn and grow and say no to sin and no to temptation and yes to obedience in light of what

God has done. But what about �lay back and let God�? Is that a good thing for a Christian to say and or do, or why not?

Yeah, it depends on what the person means with that phrase �let go and let God.� A lot of people use that phrase with the best intentions, and they don�t mean much harm by it.

But my concern is there are theological systems that that phrase can capsulize really bad theology.

So that�s why my first dissertation I wrote on that particular issue, and that became the book �Let

Go and Let God.� So I�m happy to just kind of explain five major views on sanctification, not sure which way you�re wanting to go here.

Well you know what, why don�t you give us a little bit of just general Christian views, you don�t need to give me all five,

I mean you can if you want, it�s great to have you on. What do most Christians do when it comes to sanctification, and maybe talk about a couple of errors people fall into so we can avoid those things.

Sure. Let me just give you two major views, the two basic overall approaches to the

Christian life. So one approach is that you become a Christian, that�s called conversion, you exercise faith and repentance.

God has already given you this new life, and now what happens next? And one view would say there needs to be a second experience subsequent to that conversion in which

God does something really significant that enables you to get a supercharge.

It�s kind of like you�re no longer Clark Kent, now you�re Superman. You�re not living the shallow life anymore, you�re living the deeper life, or the higher life.

It�s something that really helps you take off, and different strands of Christians have different terms for this.

So the Wesleyans would refer to it as the �second something ,� as a crisis that results in entire sanctification or Christian perfection.

Pentecostals would refer to this as the crisis of spirit baptism, and the result is that you live a victorious

Christian life, and initially you speak in tongues. The Dallas Seminary, a

Chaetherian view, calls this crisis a �dedication ,� and then the key after that is to experience spirit filling.

Now the Keswick view is the one that I�m most familiar with, and they call this second something, this crisis, a combination of consecration, uh,

I guess consecration would be the combination of surrender and faith. So let go is surrender, faith is like God, that�s the crisis itself there is that consecration, and that results in being spirit filled so you can live the victorious

Christian life. Now I�m sympathetic with what everyone wants, everyone wants to be holy, they want to believe

God and fight sin, and that�s great. The question is what does the Bible say? And I would say of all of you, you can just bump them into this basic view that you become a

Christian, and then later on there�s a second something that enables you to live better. I�d say, well, at conversion is the point when you start growing, start maturing, and it�s a lifelong process that begins there, and there may be big steps of growth along the way, and some steps back, but the overall progression by God�s grace through His Spirit is upward.

It�s maturity. That�s the general pattern. So that�s what people call the �reformed� view.

You don�t have to be a �reformed� theologian to believe that. That label turns some people off, but there you have it.

Andy, when people have a desire to learn and grow and are progressively sanctified, what would you say to someone in a pastoral sense if they come to you and say, �Pastor,

Professor, it seems like I�m sinning more than I�ve ever sinned before. I�m 15 years in the faith,

God saved me long ago, but it just seems like I�m sinning more now. What kind of advice would you give to them?

Yeah. I just drafted a book manuscript on the conscience with a friend, and we just have a chapter on this very subject.

It seems like the pattern is, the more mature you become as a Christian, the more you recognize how sinful you really are.

So it�s like, the closer you get to light, the more you can see the dirt on yourself, and the more you realize who

God is and who you are, the more you realize how different you are and how far you have to grow and mature.

So that�s the general pattern. I don�t know if you�ve read many Christian biographies, but all the good biographies I�ve read have these brothers and sisters mature, and they�re just way beyond where I am, and I read things they write at that stage in their life, and they�re talking about themselves and needing to repent of sins and, you know, prayed only four hours today.

It�s things like that. Man, that�s so far to go. But the principle is, the more mature you are, the more you recognize how sinful you are.

So that�s just a normal occurrence in the life of Christians, I think, a sign of health.

I even read today, Andy, John Bunyan, he said, �The best prayer I ever prayed had enough sin to damn the whole world ,� and writing as a mature

Christian. Andy, if people had to study Romans, let�s say, 7 and 8, sometimes

I tell people, and maybe you can let me know if you think this is a good way to do it or not, some people stay in Romans 7 for too long and they forget

Romans chapter 8, it�s �I�m wretched ,� and they don�t realize there�s no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, and others just stay in 8 and they forget 7.

Obviously, we need to have both Romans 7 and 8. Is that good thinking? Well, sure, you need them both.

A lot of it depends on how you interpret the end of 7 there, but yeah. Well, I knew you were going to say something like that, but I wouldn�t expect anything less.

We�re talking to Andy Naselli today, andynaselli .com. You can find videos, sermons, papers, articles, all kinds of great things.

Maybe one of my favorite posts, Andy, that I�ve used over the years is, �What is the message of each book of the

Bible ?� because it�s so important to understand hermeneutically the purpose of each book, so thanks for posting that.

Yeah. All right, let�s talk a little bit more about sanctification. It seems like within the Reform world, you�ve got

Thule and Chevechin on one side, and maybe Kevin DeYoung or Rick Phillips on another.

Would you describe to our audience, what�s the argument about, and why is it even good to have such an argument?

Yeah, so Thule and Chevechin�s pastor in Florida, really, he�s a good man, good father, and Kevin DeYoung and Rick Phillips and all three of these guys, they�re all good men who love the

Lord. If we just take names out in distinct positions, one side, Thule�s position, is really emphasizing that God justifies sinners.

And that justification is huge, it�s foundational, and it�s related to our sanctification by looking back at that justification.

We recognize how God has saved us from our sins, and it�s freeing, and etc.

He�s written some things that really are encouraging, and edifying, and uplifting, and it says many good things, so that�s one side.

And Kevin, who wrote a book called The Hole in Our Holiness, and many others have just pushed back in a friendly way, saying, �Yes, but.�

So, Kevin�s way of talking about it, I think, is wise, saying that there are multiple motivations in the

Bible for why a Christian should pursue holiness, not just one, not just our justification.

And in his book, I forget how many, I think he has a list of 40 or 50 explicit motivations for holiness, and I think that is a better way of thinking about it.

Kevin DeYoung�s book, what is it, did it come out two years ago or something like that, A Hole in Our Holiness?

I thought it was an excellent read as well. Speaking of books, this year, I don�t know if it�s out yet, but Perspectives on the

Extent of the Atonement, Three Views. You edited the book along with your partner there.

Tell us about the book, about the atonement, and I didn�t really know there were three views on the extent of the atonement, but I�m sure you could tell us what those are.

Sure. So, this book is another debate book. The debate here is, for whom did

Jesus die? Specifically, who benefits redemptively from Jesus� work on the cross?

And my friend Mark Snowbirder, a professor in Detroit, and I edited this book, and there are three views on it, but this is

Broadman and Holman, comes out February 2015. And the three views are a

Calvinist view, an Arminian view, and kind of a four -point Calvinist view.

And the people who write those views, the Calvinist view, is Karl Truman. I think you�ve had him on your show before.

Yes. And then another, the Arminian view, is Grant Osborne, one of my professors at Trinity, who�s a dear brother.

And then another, John Hammett, he has the Multiple Intentions view, he calls it. He teaches at Southeastern, down in Raleigh.

So those are the three views, and I teach at Bethlehem College and Seminary with John Piper.

I celebrate death and atonement, that Christ died specifically for His people.

He will save His people from their sins. I�m totally there. But the point of the book wasn�t to win that debate, though I hope

Karl wins that debate. My hope for the book is bigger. There are so many people who are divisive over this issue, that think, �If you don�t have my view in this church, then you�re not welcome here, or you�re dangerous.�

And I just would like to cultivate a better understanding of what the differences are, how significant those differences are, and hopefully help diminish caricatures.

Like people would say, �People who believe in the sovereignty of God don�t believe in evangelism.� That�s just an old shtick that is so untrue.

So that�s what�s behind the book. Andy, I�m here in central Massachusetts, and probably 300 years ago, 250 years ago, most evangelical churches, most congregational churches, would believe in definite atonement, or particular redemption.

And now most churches here, not just in New England, but in the USA, believe in unlimited atonement, or I don�t know how else to describe it.

But why do you think the shift, what�s happened in evangelicalism, where now the norm has flip -flopped?

Now you�re asking me to do sociality. I don�t know. It�s probably, it�s multiple factors, part of it is people believing what their pastors and professors have told them, and that�s the working assumption, that�s usually how most things get passed down.

And I want to attribute good motives to many of the theologians and pastors who�ve argued this.

They read the Bible, and they see texts that express a universal intention in the atonement, like God loved the world.

And what I do with that, it doesn�t seem to fit with how people describe definite atonement. So they hold to that view, and I respect that view,

I just think when you look at all the texts and put it all together theologically, it�s wanting.

Talking to Andy Nocelli today, just a few minutes left, Andy. Tell us about the resurgence of biblical theology as a category.

It�s something now that almost everyone�s talking about and needs to address. Why the prominence for that particular area of study today?

Sure. And my title is Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology. I teach this.

I love it, I�m passionate about it. And every study Bible I just worked on with Don Carson, it�s distinctive in biblical theology.

So I love this topic. So basically, there are five major theological disciplines.

Exegesis, which is saying, what do the texts say, what do the authors intend when they wrote the Bible. And another discipline is biblical theology,

I�ll circle back to that. A third is historical theology, what do significant exegetes and theologians said about the

Bible. And a fourth discipline is systematic theology, it�s synthetic, it�s putting it all together.

What does the Bible say about, and you name the issue, fill in the blank. And then a fifth discipline is practical theology, which is, okay, so based on all that, how do we live?

So going back to the second discipline, biblical theology. Biblical theology is asking, how does the

Bible reveal doctrine over the course of redemption, of redemptive history, salvation history?

So take a theme like Temple, and you can start with the

Garden of Eden, and then go to the Tabernacle, and Solomon�s Temple, and then the destruction of the

Temple, and the Romeval Temple. And then don�t forget Ezekiel�s Temple in 40 to 48. And then coming on the scene where Herod rebuilds the

Temple, and Jesus�s body at the Temple, and he visits the Temple as a child, and he cleanses the

Temple, and he dies on the cross while looking back at the Temple, and it�s just outside the city, and his body at the

Temple. And then when he dies, the veiled curtain tears. And then 1 Corinthians 3 says that you, the

Church, collectively are the Temple. And then chapter 6 says that your body, individually, is the

Temple. And Hebrews 8 and following talks about this heavenly Temple, the reality, and what we�ve seen is just the substance, the shadow of that.

And then the climax is in Revelation, where the new heavens and new earth, as the city, the

New Jerusalem comes down, and the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are at the

Temple, and there�s no sun, there�s no need for the sun, the

Lord God and the Lamb are the Temple. And the cube, the city that comes down, it�s in the shape of a cube, and the only other cube in the

Bible is the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle and the Temple. And it�s a picture that this whole new creation is the

Temple, it�s the unmediated presence of God. What I just did there is I took a theme, the Temple, and just went

Genesis to Revelation really quickly to hit some high points. And when I teach Biblical theology, I do this with about 20 different topics, and I just go

Genesis to Revelation, trace it right through to history. And they�re all connected, they�re interconnected, but a lot of it has to do with tracing typology, so with Temple, it�s looking forward to Jesus, and climaxing with Jesus� Confirmation.

And the questions you ask with Biblical theology are not identical to systematic theology.

It�s not driven by my questions like, �What does the Bible say about the topic ?� Rather, it�s, �What does the text say about the topics that are most significant in the text ?�

It�s much more investigative of letting the text drive the discussion. And I think it�s really significant when you use the

Biblical theology to do this work for real. And I think it�s really significant when you use the