Cessation vs. Continuation

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Not just to think about, well, my freedom is being kind of disturbed here.

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No, screw your freedom! One, two, three! Welcome to Apologetics Live!

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We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible. Meet your hosts from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport, Dr.

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Anthony Silvestro, and Pastor Justin Pierce. Yeah, screw your freedom!

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There you go, Arnold. Yeah, that's a great quote from Arnold, huh? Arnold, you know, if you don't like America, you could go back to, well, wherever you came from, the country you left because of the lack of freedoms there.

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Yeah. There was a reason he came here, just saying. Because he lacked freedom.

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Yeah. Oh, we got Captain Black Eagle is visiting from Tampa, Florida. Was down there recently.

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Hey, everybody. So, are you distracted by something there?

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No, I'm looking at, I got a new computer screen. All right. So, I am Andrew Rappaport and my co -host here,

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Pastor Justin. We're going to talk about, well, gifts tonight, huh?

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What do you got there? Yes, somebody gave me a gift. Someone gave you a gift. I got a gift too today.

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My gift is not a mug. My gift was a bunch of, someone didn't want me to know that they gave this to me because they gave it just a return address, no name.

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But let's see. I got a critical race theory, Southern Baptist Convention, and a Marxist solution that won't work.

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I got. Is that really the name? Yep. There you go. Yeah. Okay. I got this one.

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It says, S is for social justice, the language of today's cultural revolution.

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The dangers of the truth of social justice, Earth Day, and a total transformation for the post -Christian world.

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And then a book. This is a book, not, these are all booklets. The book, The Good Shepherd Calls.

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So, to whoever sent that out, I would say, I appreciate it, Jeffrey. Yes. I guess you weren't as good at hiding your name from me.

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That's okay. But. Oh, come on. What did I get? Well. This actually looks like some, you know, when

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I get things in the mail from the ministry, and they don't have a name of a return address,

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I usually get nervous. And so you're holding something up, but we can't read it because it's too small of a font.

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So, you know, why don't you just tell us what it says? The cradle, the cross, and the crown. Andreas Kustenberger.

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Okay. I've gotten about 300 pages in. I've got, this is for the

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New Testament studies class. It is incredible. If you want to know detail, if you want to know some detail on intertestamental period, or any issues with the scripture, this is really good.

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Yeah. So, I've gotten in the past, every once in a while I get really strange gifts in the ministry.

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And one of the ones that we got, I remember we were getting a notebook. And the guy, I mean, like almost everything was in red text, except a little bit in black.

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But it was basically like the guy was adding to scripture, and he was giving judgments on like, you know,

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Hillary. He was naming all the people that were being judged. Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Trump. I mean, like every politician, every person that's in sports, they were all going to be judged by this guy.

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He was speaking for God. It was just, it was literally like 90 pages of ramble. It was like, okay, why did this person send this to me?

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Oh, wow. That's really the thing I sometimes wonder. But these actually look like books that I'll read and enjoy.

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You know, you get gifts that you could use. I usually get gifts that I guess I don't, right? Well, okay.

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Speaking of gifts, I got this. My beautiful wife. Holding something up that we can't.

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Holding up the old and the new. Okay. This is from Dr. Michael Block. He's my hermeneutics professor at the

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Shepherds. It's understanding the New Testament authors as they quoted the

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Old Testament. It's an incredibly good book. Phil Johnson and a bunch of guys,

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I guess, from what I understand. They stand behind it. John MacArthur as well. And a really, really good book.

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Okay. Well, we have our, you know, we always have to give the quick citing of Captain America.

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There he is. Chris Han holds. He's saying, hey, all plugging in before I start my drive home.

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So we are going to be driving him home. I'll be throwing at my issue. You know, hey, I saw that Mr.

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Han holds host of Voice of Reason Radio was with Dr. James White. There's a picture of the two of them together.

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And James White, speaking of gifts, got a gift of an Ultraman, which I have no idea what that was.

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But I guess it was announced on his show. And I think he got a gift, too.

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But I don't know if I'm allowed to name that. I'll leave that up to Mr. Han holds if he wants to say what was in his hand.

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Because I vowed I wouldn't mention that little. Ultraman is the guy that fought

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Godzilla, isn't he? I think so. I have no idea. Well, this is like back in the 1400s.

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Let's get to some better stuff here. Okay. We got to talk about tongues and things. So let's start.

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Since you got your chart there of logical fallacies over your shoulder, we're going to have to pick one.

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And so you know what might be fun is we should probably let the audience just pick a row and column and let them pick one.

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Then I can't get blamed that I knew which one you were going to pick. So maybe

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Chris Han holds while he's driving can give us a row and column. Maybe not. No, he should be driving.

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Five and five. Oh, it's five and five. Yes, five up, five one. So let's go first with the row and then the column.

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Okay. The first person to put in into the chat, a row and column. We'll pick that one.

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So KT says row two, column three. What is that one? Okay. Begging the question.

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Begging the question. Well, we did that one last week. Yeah. Okay. We did do that one. We did do that one last week.

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We'll explain it for this week. Maybe some people didn't listen last week. So begging the question is a fallacy. And you're going to read that to make sure

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I get this right. But it may not be worded exact. But begging the question is a fallacy where you actually are trying to prove the very thing that you have to accept in the argument.

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So in other words, you state something as true, and that's the very thing you're trying to prove.

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Now, the example we used last week of that is the example of, well, things like the source document called

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Q. You have to assume it exists in order to believe it.

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Now, I'm going to use that same begging the question fallacy for our topic tonight.

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I was involved in a debate on the issue, on this very topic of the sensation or continuation of gifts.

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And the person, his name was, I'll leave the names out. Don't want to, you know, get the guilty looking bad.

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But the person who is taking the position that tongues continued till today, he made the statement right at the beginning, which was that if you cannot understand the

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Bible unless you believe that the gifts continued. And so right there, that's a begging the question.

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Why? Because he's trying to prove the gifts continue from Scripture. But he's saying, unless you first accept this, you won't see this in Scripture.

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Well, that is a begging the question fallacy. A bad argument to be made, by the way, is to say that we only see the continuation of the gifts if you see them by looking at them, first accepting them, and then you'll see it in Scripture.

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Well, duh, of course you will. So that is a bad thing to do logically. All right.

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So let's get to the issue. Now I'm going to, let me, I will drop into the chat here two links.

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So this first link is to an article that I wrote many, many years ago called the Biblical View of Tongues.

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And the second one is, let's see, it is

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Have Tongues Ceased. So I'll drop those two into the link.

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So you guys can go and look at those if you want to. I'm going to reference some of those.

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When we talk about this issue of tongues continuing, actually when we talk about gifts continuing, we first, with the first article

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I gave is an overview of 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14. Why those? Because those are the ones that deal the most with it.

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And I want to just say that what most people do is get this, the whole way of looking at this passage incorrectly.

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Why? Let's look at 1 Corinthians 12. High level, just giving a high level view.

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What you have in 1 Corinthians 12 is the idea of the diversity of gifts.

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The focus of 1 Corinthians 12 is that we all will not have the same gift.

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Now if the argument is that everyone should have the gift of tongues as some claim, then 1

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Corinthians 12 is wrong. If the sign of baptism of the

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Holy Spirit is the gift of speaking in tongues, then that would say that everybody must have that gift and the whole purpose of 1

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Corinthians 12 is to say that God gives each of us different gifts and within the body of Christ, we all have different gifts, but we act as one body.

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So, someone has a gift of teaching. That doesn't mean everyone has a gift of teaching. But one, two, three, however many will have that gift.

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Some are going to have a gift of mercy. Some are going to have the gift of exhortation, administration, these different gifts.

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You're not going to have just one gift, by the way. You're going to have the Holy Spirit at salvation gives gifts.

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Now let me, for folks who may be new to this topic, let me make a distinguishing factor between a talent and a spiritual gift.

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A spiritual gift is something that you get at salvation. It's something that the

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Holy Spirit gives to you. A talent is something you're born with.

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So, I'll use myself as an example. I was born with a talent of organizing.

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Now, Justin, maybe you've heard me use this example. I liked to organize everything, which made my sister, by the way, very unhappy because as a child, her room was always compared to my room and my room had everything where it needed to be.

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I was one of these kids that would, when most kids, when they're in first and second grade, they would run out after lunch, we'd run outside to the playground and everyone wanted to run around and play.

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Not me. It frustrated me to no end when everyone would just drop their lunchboxes on the ground there and when they would drop their lunchboxes, they would be disorganized.

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So, what I would do in my lunchtime was organize all of the lunchboxes in size order, by the way,

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Justin. Not just in random. I mean, they had to be in size order.

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I kept them kind of color -coded where they would be. This was the thing. I've been cursed with this all along.

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When I got married, my wife first. Well, because when I got married, I tried to explain to my wife that, okay, when we do laundry, all my shirts, they have to be long -sleeve, then short -sleeve, the long -sleeve button -downs by color, short -sleeve button -downs by color, and then the pullovers.

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She just looked at me and said, you've got one of two choices. Do your own laundry or let me put it any way

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I want. I remember you saying that before. She had the spiritual gift of leadership.

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She had the spiritual gift of, I'm not doing that. Yeah, exactly. Exhortation. We'll put it that way.

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Yeah, we'll call it. I always had the inkling, the idea, and the way of organizing things.

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That just came natural to me. Some people have talents in other ways, music, whatever.

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Some people are just natural leaders or teachers. But a spiritual gift, like, for example, the gift of teaching,

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I never desired to teach before I got saved. In fact, I hated to be in front of people. But when

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I got saved, I started to enjoy explaining to people the truths of God's word or other things, and I started to really enjoy teaching.

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That is a spiritual gift. That's something I got when I got saved. But I also believe that I got not just that, but the other gifts as well.

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I think the Holy Spirit gives a different amount of gifts. Things like mercy, exhortation, giving.

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Justin, do you have the gift of giving by any chance? Well, not when it comes to you. I'm trying not to be too giving.

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I was going to give you the missionary handshake, put your hand out in front of you. Oh, I'm sure you were.

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I knew it was coming. You're a pastor. You've met missionaries before. So let's just distinguish what a talent is versus a spiritual gift.

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When the Holy Spirit gives gifts, he gives gifts for the purpose of benefiting the body of Christ. And so when we have those gifts, what we end up seeing is that these gifts are meant, first off, for the body of Christ, not for ourselves.

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Second off that we end up seeing is that these gifts are to bring us together.

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So within the body of Christ, we should have all the gifts represented in one way or another.

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So when someone says that everyone should be speaking in tongues because that's proof of the baptism of the

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Holy Spirit, that would go against 1 Corinthians 12. So let's just get some basic things out of the way.

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Now, is that proof of baptism of the Holy Spirit? Now we have to get into more definition of terms here,

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Justin. I was just about to ask you if you're going to give me a term for what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. So, well, probably because you have read my book,

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What Do We Believe? I've seen that one. Yeah, we explain some of these things. So baptism of the

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Spirit is different than the indwelling Spirit, different than the filling of the

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Spirit. So when we talk about baptism of the Spirit, it is a one -time thing that happens at salvation.

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Notice what I said there, at salvation. We'll see that in 1 Corinthians 12 and 13, that we're all baptized into one

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Spirit. So what you end up seeing there is we have one baptism of the

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Holy Spirit. That's when we're immersed with the Spirit. That is what we refer to as the indwelling of the

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Holy Spirit. This is part of the New Covenant promise that we see in Jeremiah 31 and in Ezekiel 36,

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I think. So what you end up seeing there is the promise that we would be indwelt with the

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Holy Spirit, no longer needing a priesthood to teach us God's Word, but the Holy Spirit would indwell us and illuminate

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God's Word to our understanding. That is the baptism of the Spirit. That's different than the filling of the Spirit. The filling of the

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Spirit is something that you have over time. The filling is more of a controlling, an influencing, where the

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Spirit comes upon you for something in ways where He leads you, guides you.

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And in those times, He can come and go. The filling is something that comes and goes. Where the baptism is once at salvation and you have that, the filling kind of comes and goes.

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Now, why make this distinguishing? Well, the distinguishing of these two things are important because when we look at these two, most people will confuse the two of them.

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And when people confuse the two of them, what ends up happening there is that people end up going and starting to refer to the baptism of the

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Spirit as something that can kind of come and go. Well, I'll put this comment up.

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Melissa Owen says, referring to my book, What Do We Believe? says, it's an excellent book, Andrew. My daughter stole it from me, lol.

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Well, that's not good, Melissa. Maybe you need to contact me and we need to send you another one. I'm just saying.

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I would do that even for you. Would I do that for you, Justin, send you? I don't think you would. I've been waiting for mine.

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I gave mine away to somebody. I've never seen it since. Well, you were waiting for Anthony to send it to you, see?

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Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Where's he at now? I think he went to Mount St.

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Helens or something. Yeah, actually, that's right. He is in Mount St. Helens today. He should be at Mount St. Helens, headed up to Washington.

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He'll be preaching this weekend in Washington, doing a training up there. So he was in Portland, I think, last weekend.

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So he's doing the Northwest tour. Yeah. Taking it all in.

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Yeah. He did send us a message, said that. Let me get the exact wording. He said, just got done at Mount St.

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Helens. Absolutely stunning. So I don't think that's his first time, but it may be.

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He and I were up at Mount St. Helens, but I don't think we were. We didn't go up to the mountain. We just went to the

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Creation Center there. That's there. So what's Melissa saying there, Justin?

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Let me pull this up. I'm sorry. She says, oh, that's sweet, Andrew. I would pay for another because it's worth it to support you.

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Thank you. That's pretty nice. I like you, Justin. That's good.

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So what we end up seeing with these distinguished marks is the baptism of the

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Spirit, one time, that's the indwelling, the controlling of the Spirit, or what the scriptures would call filling of the

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Spirit, that can come and go. Okay. This becomes an important distinguishing when we talk about these things.

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Now, 1 Corinthians Chapter 13, overall of that book, what is the issue there?

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The issue there is the priority of the gifts. And there the idea, the whole issue of Chapter 13 is,

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Justin, what's that chapter all about in one word? Church. I'm going to say it on church administration.

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Love. You go ahead. Love. Okay. You're going to go with love. That's the passage that everyone reads at weddings, right?

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You said Chapter 12, right? 13. I'm sorry. I thought you said 12. Yeah. We finished with Chapter 12.

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Well, you went pretty fast. I got to ask you a question before we go any further. Well, you know, keep up with us.

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Okay. You want to ask a question? Okay. I'm going to ask some questions before we go any further because I'm going to actually push on some of these things because I want to make sure that everybody has the same – we're at the same point of view.

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We can actually announce that. I'm the sensationist and you're the continuationist, right?

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So we'll just state that for the record. No. No, I'm a –

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We're both sensationists, and if anyone wants to challenge us or debate us, they need to come in to ApologeticsLive .com.

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Exactly that. They're at this on StreamYard. Now, I'm going to point out for everybody that I'm not a sensationist.

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I'm a cessationist. Okay. Yeah. He says cessationist, and I'm like, I'm not sensational.

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Well, you can sneeze with that stuff, okay? There you go. There you go. Okay, so here we go. I wanted to find terms here.

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We see in the Scripture that there's about four main passages really that deal with the spiritual gifts.

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A lot of people say, so what are the spiritual gifts and where do we find them? And the spiritual gifts, three main passages and one sub -passage.

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I'm going to role play. Okay. KT says, I thought you were going to have to role play. But anyway, so we see that there are three main passages that kind of deal with the spiritual giftings and what they are according to the

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Scripture. And that's where we have to keep our definition at. Today the spiritual gifts are, what is it, toking the

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Holy Spirit and just all kinds of crazy stuff. Holy gibberish.

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It doesn't matter what it is. It's just they just throw it out. But we have to stick to what the

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Scripture tells us is the spiritual gifts. And so, I mean, if you want to look at, say, for example,

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Romans 12, 6 through 8, that'll tell you that we have gifts that are differing according to the grace that's given to us.

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And each of us is to exercise them accordingly. And then we find out that there's prophecy in the proportion of your faith and some of those that are teachers.

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You know, as Andrew said a moment ago, those that are teaching, those that do exhortation, the ability to give is actually one of those gifts as well.

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So, you know, if you've got it and you can give it to the body of Christ. And the entire context for the vast majority of this is dealing with the body of Christ.

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So give liberally, those that need. Did you see what I did there?

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You're talking about the gift of giving. Look down there. Support us at strivingforattorney .org. You said if, you know,

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I'm trying to work with you here. If you have the gift of giving, make sure to please do and we could use the support.

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You just have to do it for the podcast listeners. There you go. There you go. But one thing to make sure of, though, is that you're giving and supporting your church first and foremost.

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You know, we definitely believe in that. And that's what this is really discussing. And that's why

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I was talking about church function. Because most of this is seen inside the body of Christ as we outdo one another in love and good works, as we show the world our love for each other in the body of Christ.

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And so we look at those who show mercy with cheerfulness, those who lead with diligence.

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But it also says in verse 9, Romans 12, 9, let love be without hypocrisy.

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And so this is all about loving. This is all about the idea of being a loving, cheerful giver to the body of Christ.

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Verse 13 says, contributing to the needs of the saints and practicing hospitality. So this is not about for our own personal benefit, really.

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This is about how we serve and love one another. So let's go to another passage just quickly.

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We're in Romans 12. I'm sorry. First Corinthians 12. We have a comment that you have there that someone asked of you.

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Is there such a gift of deeper understanding of the scriptures and not devoiding?

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And it says devouring, but they later corrected. Devoiding from it, but understanding it.

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Sorry if that's confusing. Really. So I guess the question is, is there such a gift of having a deeper understanding of scriptures?

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No, that's the role the Holy Spirit plays in our life. And that's the process of sanctification.

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Yeah. Yeah. And so that's not a gift. And what Justin's doing is giving the list of gifts.

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Yeah. Romans 12 is one. Now, where are we going to go? Well, we're at First Corinthians 12, 4 through 11,

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I believe. It does make it easier to remember that it's Romans 12 and First Corinthians 12.

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Yeah. And that's actually in First Corinthians 12 gives us two sets of lists. So that's really easy for you to understand.

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Romans 12, First Corinthians 12. And you get two sets of lists in First Corinthians 12. First Corinthians 12 actually gives us now there are a variety of gifts with the same spirit.

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And there are a variety of ministries with the same Lord. There are a variety of effects with the same

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God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good.

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We go on and we say, For to one is given the word of wisdom through the spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same spirit, to another faith by the same spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy.

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And then we go to another, the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues.

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And that's kind of where we're at. What I want you to notice is this is all given according to the very gifts from the spirit.

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It's not what we manifest or what we produce and muster up. But finally, it says in verse 10, it says, to another, the interpretation of tongues.

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But one and the same spirit works all of these things, contributing to each one individually, just as he wills.

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And that's very important to understand. You know, Andrew, if you want to jump in real quick. What's the main thing that you see in that section as you're looking and studying that?

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What do you see pulled out of there? You mean as far as the different gifts?

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Yeah. What do you see? Well, let's not say the gifts, for example. But what do we see that they all come from?

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Well, from the spirit. And so what we have to understand in this is all of these gifts are given, not all to one person, but they are all possessed by one, right?

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God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. And we say it in theological terms that Christ perfectly manifested all of the gifts.

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He was the only one that ever manifested all of the gifts perfectly. And the

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Holy Spirit gives to each one of us as he sees fit. We don't muster him up.

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And so that's where I want to make sure when we're talking about tongues and all these spirits. So that's

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Chapter 12. Let's dig into Chapter 13 because I want to give an overview. And I'm sure, you know, folks, if there's folks that are watching that you disagree,

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I'm going to say in Chapter 13 that Chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians says that tongues have ceased.

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I'm going to make that point a little bit stronger. If you disagree with me, that's fine.

28:09

Like, let's talk about it. Come to ApologeticsLive .com. Click on the StreamYard link there and join us.

28:16

All right. Now, 1 Corinthians 13, this is the overview of this. Maybe you'll think of this with about the love chapter.

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This is one where you end up seeing it. It describes love. And you see that in 1

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Corinthians 13, verses 4 to 8. It gives a description of love.

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Why? Because the overemphasizing point of this is that love is greater than any of the other gifts.

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Now, let me dig into at least the first two verses of this because there is some things here for people to note.

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One of the things, Justin, and I know you know this, but many people will say when they speak of tongues, it is a gift of languages, which it is.

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But many people say they speak an angelic language. Well, in Acts 2 where we see this gift, we see the languages.

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They're named there. So it's not a mystery of what it is. They are languages. I'm very upset with the

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Holman Christian Standard Bible. They had—that was done right.

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They translated the word tongues as languages. It made the issue clear, so clear that the

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Charismatics got upset. And, well, the Southern Baptist Lifeway decided to change that.

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And so when they did the Christian Standard Bible, they called it tongues again so that people can be confused.

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We want scriptures that will be clear. Okay? These are languages. They're named there.

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Now, I got to tell you a very funny thing that happened. If you ever go to see

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Justin Peter's Clouds Without Water seminar, you'll see what he usually does is try to get people to help him out in the crowd.

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And he'll ask someone to stand up and get someone to stand. And he'll say, now, this is the way tongues would work.

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We're in a church service, and Mike gets up, and Mike starts speaking Swahili. And then he'll have

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Mike sit down. Then he'll have Paul step up and say Paul's going to interpret that.

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And then Paul's going to sit down, and he's going to say, okay, Justin's going to come up, and Justin's going to interpret that because there's going to be two interpreters.

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So he'd explain that. But here's what happened. We're sitting there, and he turns to Mike Gentry and says,

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Mike, would you just stand up for me? He says, so Mike would stand up, and he would speak in fluent

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Swahili. Mike, you don't know Swahili, do you? And all of a sudden, Mike starts speaking in another language.

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And Justin just looks with his eyes popped out and goes, you actually know Swahili? He says, no, that was

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Latin. I was an altar boy. Totally threw

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Justin off. He was like, he thought that Mike was actually speaking Swahili. But that's how it would be.

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And so, but what is this angelic language? Where do we see the angelic language?

31:06

Well, there's only one place in the Bible we see reference to an angelic language. Let me read this. This is 1

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Corinthians 13, verses 1. If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love,

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I have become a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal. So let's, at a high level, examine this. This is scriptural interpretation.

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We're going to walk you through this. What is being said in that? There is a comparison being made.

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A comparison between speaking tongues and love.

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Which one's the better? Love. Because if you don't have love, but you have tongues, he says you're just a clanging cymbal.

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Now, is he saying that there is a tongues of angels? He says, whether I speak of the tongues of men or and of angels.

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So not just the languages of men, but I speak the languages of angels. Is he saying that or is it hyperbole?

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Well, I will say that he is exaggerating, giving hyperbole. How do I know that?

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Verse two. Let's look at that. If I have the gift of prophecy and I know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love,

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I am nothing. Do you see the comparison there? The comparison is same as in verse one. This is a Hebrew poetry.

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This is a style of writing that be very familiar to Paul of Hebrew poetry, where you put two lines together that have the similarity.

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That's how you do Hebrew poetry. It's based on parallelism, not based on rhyme. So this is a style of Hebrew poetry.

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What you have here is you have these two lines paired together. You're doing the comparison now of having the gift of prophecy compared to love.

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And if you have prophecy without love, you're nothing. That's the point.

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Now, why do I say the language of angels is hyperbolic?

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Because he's doing the same exact thing in verse two when he says having all, know, that know all mysteries and all knowledge and have all faith.

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If you had, you knew all mysteries and all knowledge, what would we call you?

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God, because you'd be omniscient. And so, you know, I was going to ask that of Justin, but as you can see, he's stuffing his face there.

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So, you know, that's why he took me off, took himself off camera. You know, it's hard.

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I'm hungry. I'm like sitting there watching him just chow down. I'm eating pizza. It is so good. My wife made homemade pizza.

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I can't wait. I'm sorry. Hold on. Pineapples and shrimp on top? No way.

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No way. Dude, next time you come over, we're going to have some homemade pizza with pineapples and shrimp, and you're going to love it.

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What happened the last time I had shrimp? I almost went to the hospital. Okay.

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Remember, that shrimp was bad. I can't do shrimp. I love shrimp. Pineapple and ham.

34:23

Okay. We can do that. Yeah. All right. Just so everybody sees.

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Oh, man. Okay. Get rid of that. All right. So what you end up seeing is that he's using hyperbolic language.

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Here we go. Chris Honholds. I knew that we'd get a response from Chris. Even while driving, he gives us the green angry symbols.

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I can't believe he's driving and giving green angry symbols. Yeah. Well, he is a superhero. He could do those sort of things.

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But KT refers to that as pizza heresy. She's saying that we're two pizza heretics.

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All right. So what you end up seeing here in this is that he clearly is not saying that he can have all knowledge.

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That's impossible. Therefore, that is an exaggeration. He's saying if I have all prophecy, even beyond that, if I have all knowledge.

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Well, that's the same thing in verse one. If I speak all the languages of men, even of angels, he's going to the extreme in both of those cases.

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So, no, I don't believe this is an angelic language. Now, it was kind of interesting being at the

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Kenneth Copeland thing the other week where they were talking. And one of the things that they talk about is the fact that the reason to speak in tongues is because you're speaking an angelic language.

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And that way you're speaking so only God and the angels can hear and not

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Satan. Now, Justin, I'm going to need you to help me out here. When we think about different types of creation, we have animals that can be broken down into birds and fish, sea creatures, land creatures, mankind.

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What category would Satan be in? Created being. Well, what type of created being?

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He's going to be one of the angels. Angels, huh? So you think that Satan, being an angel, wouldn't be able to understand an angelic language that only angels can understand.

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You see a problem. I'm going to give you another problem with that. Nowhere in the scripture do we see that Satan or any of the angels can read our minds.

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There's only one that knows every one of our thoughts and every one of our actions and deeds. And we will stand before that one, that one alone.

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Nowhere in the scripture does Satan or the angels know what we're thinking. They might be able to.

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Are you saying that Satan isn't putting ideas in the minds of people? I don't think he's doing that.

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I think he's guiding a movement. I think our own wickedness is what's doing that. Yeah, and that's the thing.

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Many people think that, oh, Satan made me do it, especially for Christians. No, he did not.

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You know, A, he doesn't have that ability. That's right. B, he can't indwell a believer because the

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Holy Spirit. Exactly right. And scripture says greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.

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He that is in the world is Satan. Therefore, demons, I would argue based on that, cannot indwell a human being.

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I would agree with that completely. So now as we go through this and looking at it with rest of 1st

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Corinthians 13, it talks about love. That's the primary. So that's the primary gift is love.

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So what do we see in chapter 12? Chapter 12 teaches us that there's different gifts.

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Everyone should have a diversity of gifts. Chapter 13 talks about the priority of love.

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Chapter 14 now is going to talk about the purpose of gifts.

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And in here, we're going to see that gifts are to serve the body. They're not for self.

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And so what we end up seeing, just as a high level, I'm going to dig in in a moment to chapter 13 in a bit.

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But what we end up seeing here is it is clear from reading, if you read these in context, that this is not teaching that everyone will speak in tongues.

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Now, I know I'm focusing on just on the tongues for now, but there are other gifts I would say that didn't continue, such as healing.

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Now, does that mean God doesn't heal today? No, God heals all the time.

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He can heal whenever he wants. It doesn't mean he gives the gift of healing. So I want you to note those two.

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This is a fallacy many people will make, where what ends up happening is we have people who are putting things in a way of saying it as if because it has the same word healing, that it's the same thing.

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That's a fallacy of equivocation. That's probably on your chart back there. What row and column is that one? You'll have to look.

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The fallacy of equivocation is the fallacy when you take something that has the same word and they have two different meanings, but because they have the similar word, you use them in the same way.

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So healing, gift of healing, and God healing, two different things.

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But they both have the word healing, and people will sometimes use that the same way. This one's called false equivalency.

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It's the same thing. So let's dig in to have tongues ceased.

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Is there a passage of scripture that says that tongues have ceased? Yes, there is.

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In 1 Corinthians 13, let's read this. This starts in verse 8 and goes through to the rest of the chapter.

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So let me read that. It says, love never fails, but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away.

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If there are gifts of tongues, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away.

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For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

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When I was a child, I used to speak like a child. I think like a child, reason like a child.

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When I became a man, I did away with childish things.

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For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then

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I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known.

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But now faith, hope, love abide in these, but the greatest of these is love.

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Okay, so let's break this down, Justin, a little bit. What we have here is that first off, prophecy and knowledge.

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Okay, what we see is that these two have the language where they would be done away.

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That is different than the tongues will cease. One thing I want to point out here is all three of these gifts are revelatory gifts.

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They deal with revelation. Okay, that becomes important because that's part of context.

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Why is the gift of healing not mentioned here? Because it's not fitting with the context. So if someone says, Andrew, is there a passage that says healing will cease, that the gift of healing will cease?

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I can't say that there is one, but if you say, is there a passage that says that languages will cease, the gift of languages, well, yes, there is.

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It's right here and we read it. Now the question is, it says there's a time frame when this will cease.

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Okay, and that's in verse 10 and we're going to get there. But I want you to notice something. When we look at the

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Greek, the prophecy will be done away, the knowledge will be done away. Those two in the

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Greek, the way that it's worded is they are, in those cases, the word done away is a future passive.

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So something's, well, it's actually a future passive indicative. So what we end up seeing with that is this something in the future is going to act upon this and it's going to abruptly stop.

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However, with the languages or tongues, they will cease. The word cease is a future middle indicative.

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What this means is that this is something, again, that will happen in the future to the writing of this time, right?

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Not future to us maybe, but the future to Paul writing this, future to that, this will cease on its own.

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Okay, where the other two have something acted upon it, this acts upon itself.

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So what we could say is that whatever in verse 10 it says, the perfect, and we're going to look at that word, whenever that perfect thing happens, the prophecy and knowledge stop abruptly because of that, the gift of tongues ceases on its own.

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Now, this can make sense to us. Why? Because if you're given a gift of prophecy or knowledge, you're given that gift for the purpose of writing scripture.

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Now, when you're given that gift, that's not a gift like the other gifts. That's a gift for a specific purpose. So you have that knowledge because you have the prophecy, you have the knowledge, you have it to write the scriptures.

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Once, in this case, once scripture is completed, you're not writing scripture anymore, that stops.

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But the tongues, if you have the gift of speaking another language, that continues until you die.

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Well, that would make sense of why it ceases on its own, because God stops giving, the Holy Spirit stops giving that gift, then the people continue, even though maybe people stop writing the scripture, but the gift of languages still continues until those people that have it die out.

44:28

Now, I see there was a comment there. Well, first off, let's just say there's a Facebook user that says he's watching from Singapore.

44:34

So hello from Singapore. Let's deal with the question. Go all the way up to the first question from Mama Arts.

44:42

Okay, why don't you put that up? Let me pull that up. There are several questions here. I want to make sure. He, she, they, them, whatever has been very patient.

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I just want to make sure we get to it. Let's see. I think this is the first one.

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Let's see. Is it this one here that I just found? To tag them? This one.

45:04

There's such a gift as deeper understanding. We did that one, right? Yeah. There's another one.

45:12

There's another one. Is praying and asking the Holy Spirit about the gift we have been given biblical?

45:21

Good question. Okay. It's a good question. Read the rest of what they say. Because I feel in my spirit that I have the gift of teach, to teach, but do not want to lean on my own understanding but on the

45:35

Father's. That's a good position. Okay. So this is actually a broader question. So let's deal with this. Should we be praying for gifts?

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Well, that's what 1 Corinthians 12 is all about. No, you shouldn't. Now, let's think about this.

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When are gifts given? When you get saved. When you're regenerated.

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So if that gift is given at salvation, the thinking of praying for a gift would be that God continues to give gifts after salvation, and that's not what we see in Scripture.

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We see that He gives them at salvation, and they're given. You have them. So I don't think that we are to pray for gifts.

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Now, how do we know if we have a gift of teaching? And that's sort of what Lama Art's second part of the question is.

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The issue there is, well, let me ask you this. Where should we be using our gifts? Well, we use our gifts within the body of Christ, the church.

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So what you should be doing is talking with your leadership, talk with your pastors, and say,

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I think I have the gift of teaching. I think I have the gift of mercy. Whatever it is, talk to them.

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Say, how do I use my gifts in the body? And if you think you have the gift of teaching, since that was the one mentioned, then be put in a position to teach.

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But listen to what they say. Look at your pastors. Look to your leaders, and look to their evaluation, whether you have the gift.

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I always find it interesting. Everyone wants the gift of teaching. No one seems to want to have the gift of service.

47:08

The gift of teaching is required for pastors. I would say the gift of service would be required for deacons, even though it's not mentioned in Scripture, because that's what a deacon is, a servant.

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Now, Mr. Honholds refers, he says, I have the gift of sarcasm, taking naps, and being annoying.

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Those are not gifts. Those are talents. You're just talented that way.

47:35

So what you're saying is nobody has the gift of singing? No, I would say that singing is a talent.

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I would say that, again, for those that understand what the regulatory principle is with worship,

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Reformed folks talk about the regulatory principle that when it comes to worship, they only do what Scripture says to do.

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So that's the regulatory principle. Well, I take that with Scripture, when it comes to interpretation of Scripture.

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I do not interpret beyond what Scripture says. So the only gifts that I will recognize as spiritual gifts are those that are mentioned in Scripture.

48:10

That's right. And that's why I was trying to make sure that we, at the beginning of this, kind of addressed that and kind of pointed out what those gifts were.

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Now, I do want to point out one more that we did not speak of, and it relates to the question that was asked.

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In Ephesians 4 and in 1 Corinthians 12, 28, we find out that God is appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing.

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So the appointment of God in those gifts of healing, et cetera, various kinds of tongues and whatnot, is also a corollary with the gift of apostles, prophets, teachers, those that would teach.

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So one of the gifts to the church that God gives is teachers. He gave the apostles as a gift to the church.

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He gave the prophets as a gift, and he gives teachers. And so when you're asking, should

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I ask the Holy Spirit, am I about this gift of teaching? What I want to point out here is, as Andrew said, you go to your pastor and you say,

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Brother, I believe I've been given a gift to teach, and I try to cultivate that and exercise that, and maybe you show some teaching ability.

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Paul told Timothy to go find godly men and inculcate or teach them the solid truth of the word of God so that they can teach others.

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You start at the lowest rung, and you say you're teaching your kids, and then you're teaching maybe your wife or some friends.

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You just can't help it. You want to teach others. It's kind of like Andrew and I. One of our problems as pastors is we can't shut up, and we just – you can't either.

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I mean, it is that way. We just can't shut up, and we want to teach.

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It's in our hearts, but we don't just say, oh, I have a heart to teach, so I'm just going to just blurt out whatever.

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We actually study the word of God to show ourselves approved. That's what the Scripture says we do. So our foundational starting point is, is are you willing to take the time to study the word?

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Are you willing to be discipled, and are you willing to humbly submit to people correcting you?

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Because it won't do you any good to say, oh, I have the gift of teaching, if you can't be taught how to teach.

50:47

Does that help? Yes, and I think what we have to recognize is for a lot of people, this is something that they've heard in churches, but we're trying to be very precise with things because what many people have heard in churches has been confusing.

51:11

Okay, so what is Chris Hunhold saying there? Chris has testified that Andrew cannot stop talking.

51:24

It's the truth, and I'm talking about Andrew. Facebook user here says, loving the discussion, watching from the

51:30

Philippines. Now, let's get back to Llama Arts. I'm going to keep us on track, even if you want to.

51:36

You better go ahead. Okay, so the next question that Llama Arts asked was, can't figure out how to tag them.

51:45

Not sure what to do. Probably trying to figure out how to tag us with a question, but here's the question. Is it biblical to ask the

51:52

Holy Spirit about gifts he has given us if we have not yet discovered them?

51:57

Now, this again, I would say you go to your pastor, but it's sort of what Justin just said.

52:03

You're going to have a natural desire for the things that you've been gifted with. So why do

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I say I have a gift of teaching, spiritual gift of teaching? Because prior to salvation, I had no desire to teach.

52:15

After salvation, I had a desire to teach. Amen. Chris is trying to say he doesn't have the gift of teaching.

52:21

He says, okay, I'll be quiet now. Sorry. You know, one thing I want to point out on this is when

52:28

I first got saved, I had, like Andrew said, I had no desire to teach other people.

52:35

I had no desire to share the gospel. But when God first saved me, I couldn't shut up about it. I couldn't stop talking about the gospel, about witnessing.

52:44

And I just, it just, learning. Wait, wait, wait. So you're saying before you got saved, you were quiet?

52:51

Well, I was quiet about the things of God. Oh, okay. I was just curious to ask in here.

52:59

But the thing is, is when I got saved, you know, God opened the doors up.

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He opened the doors up. He directed me to, you know, play the master type things and whatnot.

53:10

The videos were out there, and I was watching it, and I was shocked, you know, that there were people that were actually doing this.

53:17

And then I started to want to do that. So I tried to learn how to do it.

53:22

When I first went out and was handing out gospel tracts, I was scared. I was in my community. I was scared. And I'm handing out gospel tracts.

53:30

And one thing Ray Comfort said was, read your gospel tract and get to know it. And then if you can't, then just read it while you're talking to somebody.

53:39

He said, you can just sit right there and just read it right off of it. If it's a decent gospel tract and you just go through the flow of it, you're going to mess up and you're going to learn.

53:48

Well, as I began to learn and I started to discern that, hey, I love doing this.

53:55

And you'd say, well, how do you know you have the gift of, you know, witnessing or evangelism? Because I'm a

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Christian. I mean, that might sound simple, but because I'm a Christian, I have the gift of evangelism.

54:08

That's for every Christian. There's not a believer that's not called to evangelize. Okay, so let me bring something up with this.

54:15

Go ahead. One of the things we have to understand about the spiritual gifts is that we are commanded to do all of them.

54:21

We are commanded to teach. We're commanded to have mercy. We're commanded to give. We're commanded to exalt. We're commanded to serve.

54:27

We're commanded to be organized. We're commanded to do all of these things. You start raising a dead, I'm leaving.

54:33

Okay, we're commanded to do all of the spiritual gifts. However, the gifts that continue for today, at least, we're commanded to do all of them.

54:41

However, some of them will come naturally to you now because they're a spiritual gift, and some will just be harder.

54:49

You can't say, well, I don't have the gift of teaching, so I can't teach. But you're supposed to be discipling, and that involves teaching.

54:55

What does it say in Matthew 28, 19 and 20? You're to baptize teaching them all things that Christ has taught you.

55:04

You know, one thing that… Discipleship. One thing that I've heard Justin say, and Michael Vlock has said this as well, wherever you start at, you know more than somebody else that doesn't know salvation.

55:21

Exactly. So you start there. You know more than somebody. Yeah. It doesn't matter where you are in your

55:27

Christian walk. You know more than somebody because you know at least the gospel if you're saved.

55:33

Exactly. And you might know something theologically and doctrinally. Make sure it's sound. Go study it.

55:39

And here's why I was saying that. I go out and I'm handing out gospel tracts. And I eventually got to the point where I really wanted to go do more and learn more.

55:50

So I go to the Super Bowl outreach with Bill Adams.

55:57

And so we go to the Super Bowl outreach. We have a really good time. I'm handing out gospel tracts. And somebody hands me a

56:04

PA system, and we're on a train. What do you call it? Subway? We're on a subway.

56:11

And as I was standing there, I had no intention of open air preaching. I had none.

56:17

I didn't want to do it. I didn't feel comfortable. But the guy looks at me and says, what are you doing? All these guys are standing here.

56:23

They're going to go to hell. You need to say something. And I'm telling you, I was scared to death. And I just said, and I thought about it.

56:29

I was like, well, he's right. I could have just let him do it. But I just felt like, okay, I'll try.

56:35

And I just said, hello, my name is Justin. And then I just immediately started remembering the gospel tract.

56:44

And I just went through it. You know, it's, would you consider yourself a good person, this, that, and the other. And I go through the gospel, and I realized,

56:53

I love this. And so I started open air preaching. Well, then I had people arguing with me, and I wanted to learn better, to do a better job.

57:02

And so I started to study the word of God. What are the apologetic arguments?

57:08

What are the arguments that people are making? And I wanted to learn more. And as I learned more and more, and I got in contact with Andrew, we met a long time ago.

57:18

you know, so I got in contact with Andrew and, and, and listening to these people that were discipling me.

57:25

And it, and it wasn't mainly through the church that I was at, because they didn't want to have anything to do with that.

57:32

But, you know, God had sent some really good teachers out there, Ray Comfort, and those guys.

57:39

And then, you know, just started building from there. So you say, well, how do I not have the gift?

57:44

You just do it. You know, it's like, how do I not have, have, have the gift of, of losing weight?

57:51

Well, I start walking and I don't stop until I'm losing weight. Right. I mean, it's, it's not,

57:58

I have gift. Okay. You know what I'm talking about? You know what I'm talking about? My point, my point was, we said, we want to be precise.

58:06

Okay. So we're going to be precise. I have the spiritual gift of losing weight. Andrew did, but he lost it.

58:13

I just lost weight by running on a treadmill. How do I not have the gift of losing weight?

58:19

It may not be a spiritual gift, but the gift. So anyway, my, my point is, is, is that you, you know, by doing it right now,

58:28

I have a question. Let's qualify that. Do you have the gift of raising the dead? Go try it.

58:37

and this is one of the things I say with people that say I have the gift of healing. Then why is there a hospital near you?

58:43

I do it. I mean, okay. And we said this on the last episode, right? You have guys that say they have the gift of healing.

58:51

Kenneth Copeland and Jesse Duplantis and all these guys that were at that conference that I went to. Right. And what do they have?

58:57

They have a section for the deaf. Hello. You got the gift of healing. Heal them.

59:03

And then you don't need to have someone do sign language. Simple. Okay. I did not catch that part.

59:09

They have a section for the deaf. I saw you had the glasses, right? Yeah. So, so I, we,

59:14

I talked about that, but I'm glad that you weren't paying attention. Yeah, let's get, yeah, no, um, mama arts had another question.

59:21

So I want to make sure we get to all the questions, uh, striving for journey. Sorry for so many posts.

59:27

No, that's what this is. Oh, please do better. Come on in. I mean, that's really, we'd rather have you come in and ask questions, but we try to, for those who either can't or don't want to, uh, if y 'all, so there must be from the

59:40

South. Okay. If y 'all don't see it, that's fine. But, uh, is it biblical?

59:48

Yes. Okay. So they were just asking the same question. All right. Well, we've answered that. So there was another question that I saw.

59:54

I thought, Oh, here we go. When did the error, and this is from Facebook user.

01:00:01

I'm telling you, this guy is prolific. If you, if you want to have your name show up and you're on Facebook, please go to a

01:00:08

Paul jacks, live .com. Their instructions to, so that we can see your name and not just call you

01:00:13

Facebook user, just, although that is an incredible name, Facebook user. So when did the error, bad joke?

01:00:24

When did the error in the teaching of sign gifts begin? Oh, this is going to be easy.

01:00:30

What was the start? Was it at the start of the charismatic movement? Well, so the answer to that question is,

01:00:36

Andrew, go ahead. Well, I would say that there was an error that started with the charismatic movement.

01:00:46

Let me start with that for folks. It really started in 1905. There were people speaking in tongues prior to 1905.

01:00:54

We have, it wasn't normative as you see it once in a while, but there were groups that were very prolific and normative in speaking in tongues.

01:01:03

The occult did it and the cults did it. Mormonism was, it was prolific. Brigham Young taught to teach in tongues.

01:01:12

So they did have that. I think the error of teaching people of the sign gifts would have started with the charismatic church.

01:01:21

Now we have some teachings. We do, now it's going to come down. How do you define teaching on the sign gifts?

01:01:27

Because 1 Corinthians chapter 14 is Paul teaching on what?

01:01:35

The sign gifts. Sign gifts. He's teaching people how to use the gifts within the body of Christ.

01:01:41

So it's going to be a question of, what do you mean by that? When you say the error, well,

01:01:47

I'm assuming the error that you're referring to is the fact that we can continue doing it today and that we can, everyone can have that gift.

01:01:56

Everyone should seek that gift. And that's why I spent the time going through 1 Corinthians chapter 12.

01:02:02

Because what you end up seeing in chapter 12 is that these gifts are not to be sought.

01:02:08

That's what chapter 12 is all about. All right. Was there any other questions in the chat that we missed here?

01:02:16

I haven't seen any. Okay. Any other comments we have to address? I don't see any.

01:02:23

Now here, Captain Black Eagle says, there was a time I thought I had the gift of languages.

01:02:28

I spoke perfect German with an American mind, which meant my

01:02:33

German only made sense to another American. Okay, there you go.

01:02:40

Well, let's say that's... Chris Honnold says, bad jokes are the only jokes Justin knows.

01:02:46

Oh, there you go. All right. So, and Facebook user is saying, sorry, losing weight is not a gift.

01:02:54

Even many non -Christians can do it. All right.

01:03:01

Yeah, but I will point out too that many non -Christians say they're speaking in tongues as well. Okay. So that's,

01:03:11

I mean, that's actually a valid point cause that's kind of a point that I make. So when we look at this, just examining it, let's dig in as I started in 1

01:03:22

Corinthians 13, eight. Okay. And what we end up seeing here is where, what is the word perfect?

01:03:32

Let's start with that. This word is a Greek word, teleos. Teleos is used throughout the scripture to refer to, it's translated as mature, complete, or perfect.

01:03:44

It is the idea of something coming to completion, something that is fully maturing.

01:03:50

Now, when you read verses nine to 12, with that in mind, we have a clear understanding of what these are talking about.

01:04:00

These are illustrations of teleos. When Christ was on the cross, said it is finished.

01:04:08

That's the idea. It's complete. So he uses three different illustrations, knowing in part, knowing in whole, that that's gonna be with the whole thing that you're gonna see, the part to completion in each of these illustrations.

01:04:22

For we know in part and we prophesy in part. That's current, what he's saying, current.

01:04:28

But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. So the whole emphasis in nine and 10 is you have the part and the complete.

01:04:39

So these gifts are going to stop when? When something is completed. What is that something?

01:04:47

They'll say, well, it's the perfect. Well, what is the perfect, the teleos? Some say, well, perfect, it has to be

01:04:52

Christ because only Christ is perfect. That is a misuse of that word. That is not how that word should be used.

01:04:59

Okay? And so what you end up seeing is he's comparing the part to the completion.

01:05:11

Now, here's the other, here's, so that's the point of it. I'm gonna say that this is referring to the completion of scripture.

01:05:19

Why? Well, context. The three gifts being mentioned, there's more gifts that don't continue today, but these three gifts have to deal with revelation.

01:05:31

So when the canon of scripture is completed, there wouldn't be a need for them anymore because they're completed.

01:05:38

Okay? So I would argue that. Now, the reason that people will say that this is something else is because they are taking verses nine through 12 as literals and not illustrations.

01:05:53

Okay? So you have the idea of something that is part to completion, verses nine and 10.

01:05:59

Verse 11, a child to adulthood. That's what you see there. When I was a child,

01:06:05

I used to speak as a child. I used to think as a child. I reasoned like a child. But when I became a man, what did I do?

01:06:10

I put away childish things. In other words, when I become a man, when I'm completed, mature, this is the other usage of this word, the idea of maturity.

01:06:17

When I mature, I put away childish things. So when this completion is done, I put away the partial.

01:06:24

I don't need the things that are partial anymore because I have the completed thing. Continuing on.

01:06:31

For now, we see in a mirror dimly, but then face -to -face.

01:06:37

Now, many people will make the argument, we'll see face -to -face. This is always a face -to -face encounter.

01:06:42

This has to be when seeing someone face -to -face. And so what they'll say is this has to be when we see

01:06:49

Christ because that's when we see him face -to -face. The issue I would see with that is one, again, it's an illustration.

01:06:58

The reason people do that is because the mirrors we have today, hold on. I've had this here.

01:07:04

A mirror? Yeah, I brought this just in case because I knew I'd want to have this. This is the mirrors we'd have today.

01:07:10

Look at that, we can see the camera. Now, the difference between this and what, and this, there's the same camera.

01:07:23

You don't see it so well, do you? You see the screen? No, I don't. No, I could kind of see just in there.

01:07:31

Just a little bit. Yeah, but what's the difference here? This is a polished metal, okay?

01:07:39

This is way more polished than they would have in the first century compared to a mirror. What you would end up doing with a polished metal is see vaguely.

01:07:50

You'd see dimly, which is exactly what it says there, right? For now, we see in a mirror dimly.

01:07:56

What's that being compared to? That's being compared to seeing face -to -face. It'd almost be being compared to the mirrors we have today.

01:08:05

They didn't have the mirrors we have. So you're looking in a mirror dimly, vaguely, versus seeing as if you're looking at someone face -to -face.

01:08:13

That's the comparison. Again, partial to completion. The last one, but now

01:08:23

I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I've been known.

01:08:29

Now, people will say, well, see fully just as I've known. That only happens when we're in heaven. So this must be when we're in heaven or the end times.

01:08:36

Again, this is an illustration. When you take an illustration and make it a literal, you are breaking rules of hermeneutics.

01:08:43

And so if we're going to look at this in its context, this is an illustration, again, something partial to completion.

01:08:51

So what you end up seeing is that these things will cease when something is completed.

01:08:57

What are they partial of? They're partial revelation. They're used for revelatory gifts.

01:09:05

They're partial revelation. When the completed revelation is there, you no longer need these gifts.

01:09:11

Therefore, I would say that once the canon was closed, we no longer need these gifts, and therefore we don't have these gifts.

01:09:20

Okay, so let me stop there and ask if there's any questions that had been coming in.

01:09:26

I don't see any questions unless you wanna, if you're using Skype or Discord.

01:09:33

Okay, I have been encouraged to look into using Discord. I just,

01:09:41

I never really got along with that platform. So yeah, so let's see what the question was.

01:09:47

It says, Andrew, do you use Skype or Discord or some program for these live streams? So we do use a program.

01:09:53

So what we use for the live stream is called StreamYard. And if you go to apologizexlive .com,

01:09:59

you will see actually the StreamYard link to join this, which would be great if you did. I actually thought with this conversation, we'd have a lot of people coming in.

01:10:08

That's true. We were planning to have Justin Peters here for this. Actually, I should have mentioned this at the beginning.

01:10:15

We were planning to have Justin Peters in here for this discussion. He could not make it because of the fact that, as some may know the name

01:10:23

Susan Heck, she does a ministry to women with some really good materials.

01:10:29

I interviewed her on my rap report podcast. Well, her husband, Doug, who used to be Justin's pastor when he lived in Oklahoma, passed away.

01:10:36

So Justin is on his way down to be down there with Susan Heck and to be there with the family.

01:10:43

So let's see. Anthony Svester says, good explanation,

01:10:49

Andrew. I just don't know what I explained that was good. I think he's talking about the issue of the perfect and whatnot.

01:10:57

No, here's where I wanna go. Let me give one programming note before I forget because I may forget at the end of the show, because you know this,

01:11:05

Justin. Oh yeah. You know who's coming on September 2nd, don't you? What's his name?

01:11:11

I think, you know what? We actually talked about him last show when we had the gentleman on,

01:11:17

David. We're gonna be having Jason Lyle coming on and Jason will be talking about flat earth.

01:11:23

Actually, I told him he could talk about flat earth or anything else he'd like to. I think we're gonna also have a little fun with fractals.

01:11:28

I'm just saying, we'll talk about that as well. But September 2nd, look forward to that.

01:11:34

So go ahead. Okay, so I pulled up John MacArthur's on Logos.

01:11:40

By the way, Andrew, if you wanna pull that up, if you want to go to logos .com,

01:11:50

you can actually get some free books from Striving for Eternity and we can have support. You guys can have a wonderful time going through some

01:11:57

Bible content. Somebody asked a minute ago about if I believe

01:12:04

I have the ability to teach, the spiritual ability to teach, this is gonna be a good place for you to go to to help you learn.

01:12:12

So bit .ly, B -I -T dot L -Y. B -I -T dot L -Y slash S -F -E

01:12:17

Logos. That's right. It'll be in the show notes. You can see it on screen if you're watching now. So someone,

01:12:23

Captain Black Eagle says, awesome, love, Lyle.

01:12:29

And I'm not even gonna try to pronounce this name. I'll just go with what they said.

01:12:35

But Striving for Eternity, are you ever gonna have Ray Comfort on or Joe Kirby? Ray Comfort does not like Andrew.

01:12:41

I don't blame him. We just tolerate, no, I'm just kidding. Wow, yeah. Ray has been on before, actually.

01:12:49

But Ray doesn't like doing long shows. So two hours is a lot for Ray. Maybe we could get him in for a 20 -minute part of the show.

01:12:58

And Joe Kirby, I don't know who that is. So I haven't had him on. I don't know who that is either. Oh, you know what?

01:13:05

Okay, so Chris Honhold says, fractals are beautiful, but I don't have the slightest clue how the math works.

01:13:15

And then what is the response to that? KT says, Chris Honhold's like a roll on my, like a roll and go pillow.

01:13:26

I don't know what a roll and go pillow is. I really don't, but I do know what a

01:13:32

MyPillow is. And if you go to mypillow .com, you could use promo code

01:13:38

SFE and get not only a great pillow made here in America, but you would also be supporting this program.

01:13:44

Or you could call our 1 -800 number, 1 -800 -873 -0176.

01:13:50

That's 1 -800 -873 -0176, or go to mypillow .com. But in both cases, use promo code

01:13:57

SFE. And I do gotta let you know, I got a new product from MyPillow that I started using, and it is their towels.

01:14:05

So I've talked about their pillows for a long time. You know that I absolutely love the mattress topper, but I have to admit that I was skeptical when it came to towels.

01:14:15

I am, Justin, I'm a little bit of a towel snob. I admit it. I like a good absorbent towel.

01:14:23

Now, unfortunately, I don't like heavy towels, but the only way you get the really good absorbent ones are the heavy ones generally.

01:14:30

And it took me a long time of looking. I tried a lot of towels. I drive my wife nuts in many ways, but this is one of them.

01:14:37

Is that true? I see her walk by. Okay, she just says, shh. She definitely won't come on camera, but.

01:14:46

She might beat you up though. Yeah, she may beat me up on camera. Yeah, if you suddenly see like an ax handle come by or a baseball bat, you know that she knows right where the camera range is to stay out of it.

01:15:00

But the thing is, I've driven her nuts because I really do have a thing where I'd like to have towels that are absorbent, and we tried a lot of them.

01:15:11

And I finally found these bamboo ones, and I thought they were the best because they weren't super heavy, but they were absorbent.

01:15:18

And I got the MyPillow towels. And I, once they got out of the box,

01:15:23

I admit I lifted them, and just based on weight, I judged them. I did.

01:15:29

I said, these are not going to be good. I got the towels and a bathroom mat. And I said, they're not gonna be absorbent.

01:15:38

I will admit when I'm wrong, okay? They were super absorbent.

01:15:44

Actually, in fact, they're more absorbent than my bamboo ones that I found. These are the most absorbent towels

01:15:50

I have ever used, and they're not super heavy. I absolutely love them. So, you know, we got the bath towels and hand towels.

01:15:57

So I have to admit right now, MyPillow is three for three. Got their pillows, love them.

01:16:02

Got their mattress topper, the three -inch mattress topper, absolutely love that. And now I got the towels, the hand towels, and the other, love those too.

01:16:12

So we're gonna keep seeing. We're gonna see if I can find a product I don't like from MyPillow. I do like that they're made here in the

01:16:17

United States. So if you go to mypillow .com, use promo code SFE, and you too could be supporting this show and enjoying the products that I enjoy.

01:16:25

I can't wait till the purple bed starts supporting us so we can start talking about that. And I don't have one, but I would love to try one.

01:16:35

So Chris Honhol says, no, referring to MyPillow break question, look at all the comments.

01:16:41

Yeah, I couldn't see what that last part was. So here's my pushback, and I'm not disagreeing with Andrew, but I wanna push back because John MacArthur actually comes from a kind of a little bit of a different perspective on the perfect.

01:16:56

He actually says that verse nine and 10. Just to say, this shows that even

01:17:04

John MacArthur can be wrong. Well, yeah, if you wanna go there, go right ahead. I haven't found it to be,

01:17:10

I'm not stepping on that toe yet. Yeah, no, but so why don't you explain his view?

01:17:18

Because he does have a different view, and you're gonna see what he's gonna do in his view is cause he's gonna take the face to face literal.

01:17:28

Yeah, exactly. And that's what I was trying to say is, and here's where you gotta understand the discussion.

01:17:35

The reason that charismatics believe what they believe is because they look at the scripture and they come up with a hermeneutical grid to judge the scripture by or to determine what the scripture is saying and to come up with an outline to understand it.

01:17:49

We all do that, it's necessary. There's one that's called the grammatical historical, and we use the context of the scripture.

01:17:58

And that has proven to be the most accurate, literal use of the word of God.

01:18:08

And so what Dr. MacArthur is doing in this passage is he's trying to come up with from that perspective, using context, using the grammar, using the history, what's going on at the time, using the language, and he's going to come up with this.

01:18:25

He says that verse 9 and 10 indicate that what will abolish knowledge and prophecy is that which is perfect.

01:18:36

When that occurs, those gifts will be rendered inoperative. The perfect is not the completion of scripture since there is still the operation of those two gifts and will be in the future kingdom.

01:18:50

Joel 2 .28, he cites Acts 2 .17, Revelation 11 .3, the scriptures do not allow for us to, allow us to see face to face or have perfect knowledge as God does,

01:19:05

Andrew pointed that out. But the perfect is not the rapture of the church because people say that it's the rapture of the church or the second coming of Christ, and people say that.

01:19:17

Since the kingdom to follow these events will have an abundance of preachers and teachers.

01:19:23

And if you have the study notes, you can go through that too. The perfect must be the eternal state when we in glory see

01:19:33

God face to face. Now, I wanna explain what he's saying. What he's saying is from the context of the lesser to the greater, love never fails, but the gifts of prophecy, those are gonna fail.

01:19:46

So the greater would be the love, lesser would be the prophecy in tongues. Verse 10, when the perfect comes, the partial is going to go away.

01:19:56

The perfect being, he says, is being the eternal state and the partial is what's going on here on earth.

01:20:02

Now, in context, he's approaching this from the context of the partial is the partial gifts that we have given to us by the spirit.

01:20:15

And that's the outworking of the love he's talking about. And then as Andrew said, verse 11, when

01:20:23

I was a child, I used to speak as a child. Then I used to think like a child, reason like a child.

01:20:30

And the perfect in that case, or the better, the complete, the fulfillment is when

01:20:35

I became a man, I put away childish things. The mirror, the same thing Andrew's talking about.

01:20:40

And so what the context of what Dr. MacArthur is pointing out is that the eternal state is the absolute perfect epitome of the spiritual state of man when we are with God.

01:20:56

And that's the only time that we will see him face to face and be in perfect harmony with God is in the eternal state.

01:21:04

When we see in glory, Dr. MacArthur says, when we see in glory, see

01:21:11

God face to face, Revelation 22 four, and have full knowledge in the eternal new heavens and new earth, just as a child grows to full understanding, believers will come to a perfect knowledge and no such gift at all will be necessary.

01:21:28

Now you think about it, he says, love will be the culmination, it's the ultimate.

01:21:34

And that's what Corinthians says. So I agree with Andrew and I agree with Dr.

01:21:40

MacArthur on both of these states. And that's why we have to do contextual hermeneutics.

01:21:47

We have to understand what's going on at the time. Yeah, and so where I'm gonna end up seeing is,

01:21:57

I think that with the context, it fits better with Revelation. And that's gonna be where I'm gonna land on this.

01:22:05

And therefore I'm gonna say, yes, this is a passage that says that the tongues are not for today. Yeah. They have ceased.

01:22:12

Okay, so what are tongues? Languages. Languages. So KT says the gibberish, and this is why it's important because, sorry, the context, it matters.

01:22:27

So when you say tongues never fail, tongues this, tongues that the reason that you say tongues is because King James and everybody else has refused to translate it from the word tongues to its actual word languages.

01:22:47

It's an idiom to say, a person speaks in many different tongues. It's a language, okay?

01:22:54

It's a known verbal usable language. And KT points out the gibberish that people use today is nothing like the tongues of scripture.

01:23:06

What they're doing is speaking in angelic language. In fact, I think you gave me a clip. If you can pull that up,

01:23:12

I can. And so let us, you know, I don't know why you wanna torture the audience this way.

01:23:19

I'm just, for the record, folks, this was his doing and not mine. But I think what I will do since this is four minutes long, how about if we play this at like double speed?

01:23:31

That may make this even, I think that's gonna make this even better. So it's only two minutes. No, I cut out that first part because it was just.

01:23:39

Which part? Okay, you didn't give me a timestamp in what you said. No, no, no, I've already cut it. Just if you hit play, it'll go right to her doing.

01:23:47

No, did it? Oh, okay. So should we go to the, should we do it at double speed?

01:23:55

Sure. This could be entertaining. I have a lot of folks, just for the record, I have not watched this.

01:24:02

And so this is all on him if it goes badly. But here it is.

01:24:10

And let's. All right, let's see what we got.

01:24:17

Let me just get rid of. Yeah, crazy lady. Okay, ready? Oh wait, hold on, hold on.

01:24:25

Got it, why is the, oh, okay. I gotta get the audio thing. So hold on.

01:24:31

Just give me one second. I forgot that this was in Chrome. So I got to redirect

01:24:37

Chrome. Okay, ready? So I will back it up to your, to 47 seconds.

01:24:45

And here we go. Oh, oh, oh, worship the

01:24:50

Lord, worship the Lord. For the Lord demands a worship right now. The Lord demands a worship right now. For your worship will rise above it. Your worship will rise above it.

01:24:55

For your worship will rise above it. For your worship will rise above it. Wait, wait, wait, what's with the guy with the jacket walking behind her?

01:25:02

What was that? It's so angelic that he can't help it. Wait a minute, okay,

01:25:08

I gotta slow this up just so I can see that guy go. That is funny. Folks, if you're listening, okay, she's like just making noise and flipping her book around and raising her hands up.

01:25:19

And there's a guy with a raincoat and shorts. Yeah, he's in shorts and little shoes.

01:25:26

He's got a raincoat over his arm and he's just walking behind her.

01:25:32

Your worship will rise above it. For your worship will rise above it. For your worship will rise above it.

01:25:39

Your worship will rise above it. You got the mantra? Do you see what's on the right, left -hand side of her?

01:25:46

She has a laundry baskets. Yeah, well, I was gonna mention that. They got the offering baskets right there, huh?

01:25:52

I don't know, the laundry baskets. She went over to. In Jesus name,

01:25:59

Brad. Get the hucka, get the hucka, get the hucka. Nonsense. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:26:06

I'm learning Hebrew and I'm gonna tell you what that means. I'm gonna translate it for you. I think that's the language.

01:26:14

Yeah, that's it. Yes. Bologna. Why did you make us watch that? Well, but my point is, is what she was talking about,

01:26:22

KT. Someone is saying here, sounds Arabic mixed with being possessed with a crazy

01:26:28

American English speaker. But, you know, I'm gonna say this because that's actually an interesting thing. When you're taught to speak in tongues, which

01:26:35

I was when I was in the charismatic movement, and what did I do? I started out by doing the gibberish that my sister and I would do when we were, we would hear, my mother would take us shopping.

01:26:47

We'd hear everyone speaking Spanish. And so we ended up, that's an insult to Bologna. That's from Chris Arnold's history.

01:26:55

Chris got it good there. So my sister and I used to just hear people speak in Spanish. We'd just make up a gibberish.

01:27:01

I start doing that, everyone's like, you got it, you got it, ah! They're all freaked out. I'm like, okay. And I'm like, this is stupid.

01:27:08

But what I ended up doing was a mix of Hebrew. It was a mix of Hebrew, Spanish, little

01:27:14

Creole that I knew. And so it was really, it wasn't any words that were actual words, but it had sounds of Hebrew, sounds of Creole.

01:27:29

That's what it had. So this has the sound of Arabic, but it's not Arabic. There's a video,

01:27:35

I can't remember who did it. There's a video where they actually teach their new people coming in how to speak.

01:27:43

Justin plays that. Yeah. When you're talking about some of this stuff,

01:27:49

I went to a charismatic church when I was a teenager, my cousin and I did, and we went and the people were in there just running around screaming and yelling and dancing.

01:28:00

There'd be a lady would go up front. She was, I have a prophetic something. And she would start saying,

01:28:07

God told me this. And then she would, and all this. And then somebody would walk up and say, oh, this is what it meant.

01:28:17

And you're going, okay. So we're fulfilling scripture. We're fulfilling scripture. And I'll never forget it.

01:28:23

My cousin was taken out to dinner with a group of the guys. And they take him out to in the car, they go up to someplace where they're going to, he was sitting in the middle and they would not get out of the car.

01:28:38

They actually sat with him, laid hands on him, prayed over him that God would give him the spirit of, the fire of tongues would pour down on him.

01:28:47

And he said he felt so uncomfortable. He was just shaking. And they sat in the car and they were praying and praying and praying and praying.

01:28:54

They kept telling him, you can do it. Come on, just let it out. Just whatever it is, let it out. Just do it, do it, do it.

01:29:00

And he went, blah, blah, blah. And they just started screaming and yelling. Yay, praise God. Jumped out, they're screaming, yelling.

01:29:06

And it was the silliest thing. Cause I mean, he called me up and he said,

01:29:12

I'm not going back to that church. And he said, the only thing

01:29:17

I did was I said, blah, blah, blah, to get them to open the door so I could get out. They had trapped him in and they were going to force him into doing this spiritual language.

01:29:27

I remember feeling that same pressure. It is. And the thing though is, is that, you know, and I, again,

01:29:34

I can't pronounce this person's name, but I'm going to go back to the comment from Chris Hunholds. And he's speaking, I guess, to you is that, you know, he says you, he, if he mean you,

01:29:43

Justin, you offended Bologna and now you must pay reparations to Bologna. So. I will by making

01:29:49

Bologna sandwiches later. Yep. Well, actually there, there's exactly what he kind of said. Okay, I got a,

01:29:55

I got Bologna and I'm going to make myself a sandwich. I'll be right back. There you go. So there you go. He already, he, he thought of your bad joke before you.

01:30:03

Before I did, before I did. But I do want to wrap this up. I actually thought we'd have some people coming in here and challenging us and disagreeing with us.

01:30:10

Actually surprised that we had no one, no one in. I wonder if, if Mr.

01:30:17

Hunholds has made it home yet. Who knows? But I think that what we can end up seeing is

01:30:23

I believe that scripture makes it clear that the gift, at least the gift of tongues, prophecy and knowledge have ceased.

01:30:29

They're no longer in use today. So what about these other gifts? Well, I would say the other gifts, what do you, what about the gift of healing?

01:30:37

Well, with the gift of healing, we don't see a scripture verse that says that's going to, that God's going to stop giving it.

01:30:43

However, I do want to point something out. As we look through history, biblical history, you will see three times in history where you see miraculous gifts, especially things like healing.

01:30:56

And there's something special about all three times. First, that you see a lot of miraculous gifts, whether a lot of them sort of normal, normal for a person is

01:31:06

Moses. Second one is Elijah and Elisha, and the third is

01:31:14

Christ. Now, what makes those time periods special and different?

01:31:20

Well, Moses, we have the writing of scripture. Scripture was being written and the miracles that Moses was doing, they weren't to be a sign for people to believe by the way.

01:31:31

In fact, Jesus speaks directly against that when he talks in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man.

01:31:40

And he says, the rich man saying, send Lazarus to my brother. If they see him risen from the dead, they will believe.

01:31:47

And Jesus says, if they don't believe the scriptures, they're not going to believe if someone rises from the dead.

01:31:53

In fact, that did happen. They don't believe the scriptures, the Jewish leaders, even though they study the scriptures,

01:31:59

Jesus rose from the dead and they still didn't believe it. So miracles are not for the unbeliever to believe.

01:32:08

What they did was vindicate the message. What message? The new message being written down that we call scripture.

01:32:15

So Moses, we have the first time scripture is being written and we have a time where miracles are occurring and then they go out of play, but what do you have?

01:32:26

Some people that continued writing. Then silence for several years. You have a long period of silence.

01:32:32

And then what happens? Elijah and Elisha come on the scene and then it followed by the prophets.

01:32:38

And what did the prophets do? Start recording scripture again. And then we have a period of silence.

01:32:43

And then Jesus comes on the scene, vindicating the message that he proclaimed. And the apostles would do miracles as well.

01:32:51

And what were they doing with that? Writing scripture. And then it would cease. And so how do

01:32:57

I know that, for example, the gift of tongues ceased?

01:33:03

Well, I'm gonna give two passages of scripture. One, Paul wrote to Timothy to take a little wine for your stomach's sake.

01:33:11

Timothy, because he was drinking just water in an area where the water had dysentery, he was getting sick.

01:33:19

The other passage would be the book of Philippians. Why that? Now, why the first one?

01:33:25

The first one, because if Paul had the gift of healing, we know he didn't have to be present to heal someone.

01:33:32

He could have said, Timothy, heal yourself, or I'll heal you. He says, take wine. You say, okay, but there was distance.

01:33:38

Maybe that's the thing. Okay, well, in Epaphroditus, in Philippians, he was almost dead.

01:33:45

He died. He was so sick that Paul says, even almost unto death. And that's why he's writing this book of Philippians to send

01:33:54

Epaphroditus back so that they wouldn't worry about him. And so what do you end up seeing there? You end up seeing there that if Paul had the gift of healing still, he would have just healed

01:34:04

Epaphroditus and been done with it. I believe he didn't do that because he no longer had that ability.

01:34:12

Okay? So you're putting up, I guess, a question from 1 Corinthians 14, 22.

01:34:18

Well, no, I'm following along with you putting the passage together. Okay.

01:34:24

Yeah. So as we look at this, I think that we can end up seeing that the gift of healing has not continued.

01:34:35

The gift that people claim as healing today is a sham where they say that you have to have faith to be healed.

01:34:43

Are you saying that Todd White isn't actually making people's feet longer?

01:34:50

I mean, come on. But he is actually moving the one, the leg that he says is the longer one.

01:34:58

He's actually moving it very slowly. You could see that in Justin Peter's seminars or in the

01:35:03

American Gospel video. So what I'm saying is that I think God stopped using, giving these gifts because he no longer needed to vindicate scripture.

01:35:13

These miracles were to vindicate scripture, the new writing of inspiration.

01:35:19

So unless I would say, unless God is gonna start to start writing scripture again, we shouldn't expect to see all the miracles that would accompany that.

01:35:30

So that would be the thing that I would end up saying. So we got someone asking, so Andrew, I'm on Striving Fraternity site.

01:35:39

Where is the Stream Labs at Mainstream Yard thing you mentioned? Go to apologeticslive .com.

01:35:45

It's actually, if you look down at the bottom, it says, scrolling across the bottom, join us Thursday nights to ask questions or offer challenges, apologeticslive .com.

01:35:55

So just go to apologeticslive .com. And when you're on that page, that's also on the

01:36:01

Striving Fraternity site. And when you get there, you just have to scroll down. You may see a duck icon or it'll say

01:36:07

Stream Yard and you click there to participate. But do it quick because we only have about 20 minutes left of the show.

01:36:15

So I think that as we look at this, we can see this argument.

01:36:21

I'm gonna say, I don't really hold to the argument.

01:36:28

I think it's called the cascading argument that Waldron holds to that because there's no more apostles, the apostles had that gift and the apostles aren't here anymore.

01:36:41

So the gift isn't here anymore. The reason I wouldn't hold to that is, I think the issue is why did the apostles have the gift?

01:36:49

Because of the writing of scripture. And so instead of tying it to apostles,

01:36:54

I'm gonna tie it to the purpose. If the purpose of it is no longer needed, then you don't need the gift, all right?

01:37:04

Well, I'll just tell you, I don't agree as much as Sam Waldron says anyway, but that's just me. But I will say this, is that -

01:37:12

His seminary? Huh? Don't you go to his seminary? No, I didn't. I did, I did it one time and that's one of the reasons

01:37:18

I left. But I wanna point this out and that the scripture makes it clear.

01:37:26

You said this, but I wanna reiterate it just so everybody understands. The scripture makes it clear that Paul was telling

01:37:33

Timothy, drink this little bit of wine for your stomach's sake. Timothy was a teetotaler and Paul says, you're getting dysentery, you're getting all these infections or whatever it is from the waters.

01:37:45

So you need to mix wine in with the water to kill these bacteria that are hurting you.

01:37:53

And he's trying to get him to have an understanding and a focus that you're hurting yourself.

01:37:59

So he was saying, as Andrew said, he could have healed him.

01:38:05

I mean, he could have just healed him if that was the case. KT is giving one here, right? From 2

01:38:11

Timothy 4 .20, right? We have Paul just leaving someone sick in Miletus.

01:38:18

He doesn't heal him. Yeah. And the point here, what you're saying is, wait a minute, 2

01:38:27

Timothy. You said 2 Timothy 4 .20? She said it was 2 Timothy 4 .20.

01:38:33

All right, let me pull this. And I'm gonna have one more passage that we gotta get to before the end.

01:38:41

Erastus remained in Corinth, but Trophimus, I left sick in Miletus.

01:38:48

And the point there is, is he didn't heal him. And that's the whole point. The cascading effect there you're talking about, they'd already lost the ability to heal by this time.

01:39:04

That's the assumption we're making. They would have healed them. At that point. So let me deal with one last argument that gets used.

01:39:13

And this is an argument from a good friend of ours, Matt Slick. And so, Matt and I have debated this topic.

01:39:21

I could find that, I'll look for that debate and try to put it in the show notes for the podcast.

01:39:27

So if you listen to the podcast, I'll try to get that in there from the show notes. So, and we debated this.

01:39:35

Now, I wanna point something out. Matt and I are good friends, okay? So this isn't a thing where you have to debate.

01:39:42

Actually, one of the funny things about the debate is the fact that what we ended up doing was, like Matt was busting on me at one point because my

01:39:50

Logos wasn't working. I couldn't bring up my Bible. And he's like, do you want me to help you with your argument?

01:39:55

I know your argument. It was a lot of fun. But he emphasizes one thing and I wanna address it.

01:40:05

He says he will focus on 1 Corinthians 1 .7. And this is his argument to say that gifts continue, okay?

01:40:13

And it says, so that you are not lacking any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our

01:40:18

Lord Jesus Christ. Now, the word for gift there is charismatis.

01:40:25

That's charismatic gift. So his way of interpreting this is, so that you are not lacking any charismatic gift, waiting for basically the revelation of Jesus Christ.

01:40:35

Now, he's gonna say the revelation of Jesus Christ is the second coming. I'm gonna agree. Now, his interpretation is that therefore, every church must have the charismatic gifts today.

01:40:49

Or he'll say, he actually says that the church, not every church, but the church as a whole, because they can't be lacking any gift.

01:40:57

Now, my point when I debated him is to focus on the word lack. Why? Because by definition, the word lack means there is a need.

01:41:10

Okay, technically when we look at this, it means to miss, to fall, to be in need, to be without, to go without.

01:41:20

So you have to have a need. To lack something, you have to have a need for something.

01:41:29

So how can Matt and I both look at this passage? Well, Matt's gonna look at this passage. He's gonna say, well, see charismatic gifts continue today.

01:41:37

And he came up upon this when he was, he came to this when he was debating Sam Waldron. Now I will admit,

01:41:43

Matt won that debate, even though I think he's on the wrong side of the issue.

01:41:49

I think his conclusions were wrong, but he won that debate. And the reason

01:41:54

I can say that is because Sam Waldron didn't debate the topic they were supposed to debate. He came in debating something else.

01:42:02

Okay, and so he lost because he didn't answer the issue, the question being addressed.

01:42:08

Matt did at least. Wrongly in my opinion, but Matt's gonna say that this passage says that the church has to have these things today in the church general, church universal, because they wouldn't lack any gift.

01:42:27

In other words, we can't be without any gift. I'm gonna say that what this is saying is that you are not lacking any gift.

01:42:35

In other words, you have every gift that you need. So if you needed the gift of tongues, if you needed the gift of healing,

01:42:42

God would give it. The question is, do we have a need? There I'm gonna say, guess what?

01:42:49

We have the scripture. When we look at 1 Corinthians 13, we have the scriptures, so we no longer need the partial.

01:42:57

That's the whole point of 1 Corinthians 13, that when the partial, once you have the completed thing, you don't need the partial anymore.

01:43:06

So there's no more need for it because there's no lack of it because there's no need for it, okay?

01:43:13

And so that's how I would end up answering that. Let me just add, I'll throw it to you, Justin. We got about 15 minutes left.

01:43:20

Any other points you want to bring up? No, I agree with you there. When you're talking about the gift here, you have to understand in the context, let's go back to 1

01:43:33

Corinthians 1, Paul called to be an apostle, let's say to the church of God, it was in Corinthians, verse four.

01:43:45

I thank my God, always concerning you, for the grace of God, which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you are enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of the

01:44:11

Lord Jesus Christ. This context is actually dealing with their being complete in Christ.

01:44:19

That's the context of all of this. In other words, they are not coming behind or lacking in any of those things that are necessary in the body of Christ.

01:44:29

And so I'm agreeing with Andrew on this. I see this as the lack of any necessary gift for the

01:44:38

Corinthian church. But if you go to 1 Corinthians 13, Andrew said this already,

01:44:44

I just wanna make sure that we understand it. This is about love. The greatest gift is love, right?

01:44:53

The greatest of the gifts is love. Now, who fulfilled it perfectly? Christ.

01:45:00

Who is the greatest example of all of the gifts? Well, the one that gave it, Christ. It's Christ.

01:45:07

It's being filled with the Holy Spirit. He had the gifts without lack.

01:45:12

He had the gift without any measuring out of the gifts. He had them perfectly.

01:45:19

And Paul is saying, I want you to know that your testimony concerning Christ is confirmed in you so that you're not lacking any of the things that you need as a gift.

01:45:31

So that's where I'm coming in. Did you pull up the past or the? I dropped the link here for that video, that debate, so you can watch that.

01:45:41

And you know, there was even a guy in the audience who was there, agrees with Matt's position and admitted based on that one argument, he said, you won the debate.

01:45:51

Even though he doesn't, again, like I could say Matt won a debate, even though I disagree with his conclusion because he answered the issue, this person who agreed with Matt's position ended up saying

01:46:01

I won that debate because Matt's whole argument was based on the word lack.

01:46:07

And I asked to prove where the need was for it because if scripture is complete, I don't think we have the need.

01:46:13

And so I think that wraps up this discussion. If you disagree with us, you could contact us.

01:46:21

You could email us at info at strivingforeternity .org.

01:46:26

Let us know your thoughts. Let us know if you agree, disagree. I'm almost wondering Justin, whether the link to join was working because I know someone even looked for it.

01:46:34

No one came in. So I don't know. I kind of get nervous when we have no one coming in, not even

01:46:41

John Wilkinson. Yeah, that is strange. Yeah, so it was just the two of us, this whole show that, not as much fun, folks.

01:46:50

We like it when you come in. Yeah, come on in. Just as I said to one person, mark your calendar, put it on your calendar,

01:46:57

Thursdays, eight to 10 Eastern time at night. Put it on there, put apologexlive .com

01:47:03

so you know where to go. Come in, join us. We're here every week or most weeks, I should say. We are trying to do this.

01:47:10

So what we next, give you just an update on some things. Next week, I'm hoping that we'll all be back.

01:47:19

We're planning, the plan is, we'll see, but the plan is to have Justin Peters in here.

01:47:25

We'll continue to discuss. Really, we'll talk a little bit about the time we had at the

01:47:35

Kenneth Copeland thing since he couldn't make it last week to get to that. We'll have him come in. We'll talk about that a bit. We are also gonna talk about a

01:47:42

Sam Storm article that was written defending listening to Bethel music in your church.

01:47:49

So that's gonna be the topic for next week, the 26th. The week after that will be

01:47:55

Jason Lyle. Jason Lyle will be on. We'll talk flat earth and lots of other cool astronomy things.

01:48:03

I'll note for the record to the guy, Andrew, in our Christian apologetics group who was supposed to come on here and discuss

01:48:10

Q. He didn't show. So just pointing that out, challenged him to come and do that.

01:48:24

Here we go. Cynthia says, love Matt Slick, but disagree with him on this issue. I agree with that sentiment.

01:48:35

There is a famous man that I know. Drew is saying that Chris Hough and Sam Storms are one.

01:48:42

That doesn't sound good. That's not a good argument. Well, the issue with Sam Storms is which

01:48:47

Sam Storms? The old one or the new one? Exactly, he has a book that he's written against speaking in tongues and he stopped that one in print and now he has one in print now, speaking in tongues.

01:49:00

So I actually got an old copy of the other one. I was asked whether I'd be willing to debate him. And I said, yes.

01:49:06

So I got the copy and that never materialized. But I was hoping, I was actually gonna use Sam Storm.

01:49:12

The debate I was gonna do is Sam Storm against Sam Storm. I was gonna use his own words against him.

01:49:18

I was just gonna keep quoting Sam Storms. What a fun debate that would have been.

01:49:24

One thing to remember guys, before we hang up is there's a famous person that I know that said,

01:49:30

I cannot exegete your experiences. So when you are going through and who's that?

01:49:37

Justin Peters. Right. Justin Peters says, I can't exegete your experiences. And the point is, guys, we have to stick with the context.

01:49:45

We have to stick with the scripture because that's all we have. Notice that I didn't, in my explanation of scriptures, argue that this is true because I do it or this is true because I don't do it.

01:49:59

This is one of the things you find with a lot of people that believe in the charismatic gifts and practice them. They will, usually what you end up seeing, even if they start by arguing scripture, they almost always, once you end up seeing that you knock their arguments off with scripture, go to experience.

01:50:17

And it goes to, well, what do you do with this? This is what happened to me. What do you do with this? And that's where that line comes in.

01:50:23

I cannot exegete your experience. Unfalsify it. So Captain Black Eagle says,

01:50:32

I think Andrew, the one who you invited realized has no logical argument.

01:50:38

Just my thought. I think so because what I did was actually, I sent that person my rap report podcast episode that we just did on answering liberal arguments.

01:50:50

And Q was one of those arguments. So I said here, I want you to have the information so that you're not caught off guard.

01:50:58

There you go. It doesn't show. Yeah, I'm not surprised. Happens often. So with that, just if you guys get value out of this show, if this is helpful to you, if you wouldn't mind supporting us, we mentioned that you could support us through MyPillow.

01:51:13

That's one way. You could support us through Logos. That's another way. But the best way is go to strivingforeternity .org

01:51:19

slash support. If you get value out of this show, please, if you wouldn't mind helping us out.

01:51:26

As I've said, last year, we took a big hit with the year of COVID as, we didn't generate a lot of our donations through speaking in churches.

01:51:37

We didn't do that last year. And things are not as active this year. So because of that, our donations were down 60 % from 2019 to 2020.

01:51:50

And so if you could help us out, that would be great. Go to strivingforeternity .org slash support.

01:51:56

That would be where to go. And we would greatly, greatly appreciate it. It would help us out a ton.

01:52:02

Until next week, remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.