February 7, 2017 Show with Jim Newheiser on “Help! My Anger Is Out of Control!” AND “Help! Someone I Love Has Been Abused!”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you a happy Tuesday on this seventh day of February 2017 and for those of you who have not yet gotten used to the fact that I am including

Lake City, Florida in my opening announcements, that's because as of yesterday we have joined the lineup of Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida and those fine folks, Justin and Brandon Ellickson, who operate that station, have added me in a pre -recorded version to the morning drive time slot, 8 to 10 a .m.,

which anybody in radio knows is the most prime piece of real estate anywhere on the day part calendar on radio and we are also aired every day 8 to 10 p .m.

in a pre -recorded version, so we thank those fine folks at Grace Life Radio for including us in their lineup and we hope that the

Lord bears much fruit from this new partnership there in Lake City, Florida and beyond because they also live stream as well, so people also hear this program globally over their website, which is

GraceLifeRadio .com, GraceLifeRadio .com,

so if you miss Iron Sharpens Iron's live program, you can hear it later that same night.

It's actually going to be the program that was live the day prior, typically anyway, so 8 to 10 p .m.

if you miss us live and that's eastern time and then of course, as I said earlier, the morning drive slot 8 to 10 a .m.

eastern time every day Monday through Friday. Well, today we have returning to our program

Jim Neuheiser. He's director of the Christian Counseling Program at Reform Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina.

He is the executive director of IBCD, which stands for Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship, and ACBC, Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and he's a fellow and board member of that organization and he's going to be discussing two books that he's written or should

I say booklets. Help! My Anger is Out of Control. That's the first hour we're going to be addressing that.

Second hour we're going to be addressing Help! Someone I Love Has Been Abused, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Jim Neuheiser.

Thank you. Delighted to be with you today. And if you could, Jim, just let our listeners know, especially because the fact that we, it seems from the emails we are getting, we are getting new listeners to Iron Sharpens Iron every week at least, and of course we certainly have a whole new group of listeners in Florida now that we have been added to the

Grace Life radio lineup. Tell our listeners something about your personal religious upbringing, if any, how the

Lord sovereignly drew you to Himself and gave you the gift of eternal life.

Sure. I grew up in a home where my mom was a nominal Christian and my dad was kind of an anti -church believer in God.

When I was in my mid -teens, a friend invited me to church, and the church to which he invited me happened to be a church called

Believer's Chapel in Dallas, Texas, where S. Lewis Johnson for many years... Oh yeah, I had the privilege of having lunch with S.

Lewis Johnson in the 1990s when he was speaking at a conference in New Ringgold, Pennsylvania, and I was so delighted that he gave me the honor to sit with him and have lunch with him, and I picked his brain and it was such a blessing.

Yeah, well that was the kind of ministry where the Lord saved me, so by the time

I was a sophomore in high school, I was convinced of the doctrines of God's sovereign grace and was in a wonderful church.

This would be back in the 70s, doing a great expository ministry with sound theology, and so the

Lord saved me again. I had a desire to be in ministry.

I actually had the privilege of getting my semi -school teacher. My first semi -school teacher was Ray Orland when he was at Dallas Seminary.

Oh wow. They had a lot of other well -known folks there. Wasn't Ray at one time the pastor of Calvary Baptist in Manhattan?

I'm not sure. He's been in a few different places. I know now he's in Tennessee, I believe, but he was at Wheaton for a while, but anyway, just had an amazing background there, desired to be in ministry.

I was actually from some advice with S. Lewis Johnson. He encouraged me to go to college and learn something that would earn a living in case

I couldn't be in ministry. Jesus, not having begun his public ministry until he was 30, and elders being older,

I spent most of my 20s working in business, but in God's providence, when I was working overseas in Saudi Arabia, I was suddenly made the pastor of an underground church for expatriates living there, and I did that for six years before I got kicked out.

Then I went to Westminster Seminary in California and was involved pastoring a church there for 26 years, involved in the counseling ministry, taught some at Master's College in their counseling program, and then just in July, I was asked to come,

I accepted the call to come be the director of the Christian Counseling Program here at Reform Theological Seminary in Charlotte, and so we're adjusting to a new life here.

Praise God. Well, you have written this booklet. It's a part of a series, actually, as you know, since you're the one that wrote the booklets in the series, but you have a booklet that we're going to be addressing for the first hour,

Help! My Anger is Out of Control. What were the catalysts that led you to want to write this specific booklet on this issue?

Yeah, this is a booklet that was catalyzed, to use your word, that I, in addition to doing the normal counseling rather than a local church, we had this

Counseling Center ministry where I would counsel typically four to six cases a week outside the church, and I found that in so many cases, anger was a huge issue.

I guess Jay Adams, kind of the father of biblical counseling, made a statement that anger is probably involved in over 90 % of all counseling problems, and I just wondered where the other 10 % was, because I found that almost every case.

And I kept working through, well, how do I address anger biblically with people, and kind of doing this literally dozens of times, teaching from the

Bible, trying to give them basic principles to remember. I had worked at them many times, so finally when these booklets were being written,

I kind of already had it in my mind how to approach this.

And the purpose of the mini books is that it's something that you can read in less than an hour.

It's kind of the equivalent of a good counseling session or a good sermon. So for people who might have difficulty reading a two or three hundred page book, they can read a short booklet that gives some of the main ideas of how the scripture addresses a particular problem.

And if you could, this may sound like a silly question, but define anger, because obviously there must be different forms of anger, because there is anger that is righteous, there is anger that even our

Lord and Savior, who is completely free of sin, demonstrated. You know, you have examples of Him clearing out money changers in the temples, or you have examples of Him calling the

Pharisees whitewashed sepulchres filled with dead men's bones and brood of vipers.

There was obviously anger behind that, but it was obviously completely free from sin and righteous.

And then, of course, you have anger that is sinful, that the Lord prohibits. So if you could, tell us exactly what you are talking about in this booklet.

Right. Robert Jones, who teaches biblical counseling at Southern Seminary, and has written a whole book on anger, says, anger is our whole person's active response of negative moral judgment against perceived evil.

And so putting that into simple terms, anger is a judgment where there's a sense of something's unrighteous, and then there's a response, and it can be an intellectual response, and sometimes involve a physical response of getting upset, feeling something that makes you want to act to make things right, to make things just.

And as you said, God Himself is righteously angry. He's angry with the wicked.

He brings judgment. Jesus was angry at the merchandising in the temple, and He even became angry in the face of unbelief.

And Moses was angry over the golden calf. And so there's such a thing as a righteous anger. However, for most of us, that's somewhat rare.

Most of our anger, I think, has an element of unrighteousness in it. Well, when someone is beginning to feel angry,

I guess since there are two forms of anger, they've got to really do some self -examination as to the motives of this.

Sometimes it may be purely self -evident that it is coming from a spirit of sin and wickedness and self -righteousness, and sometimes, obviously, as we've already been saying, it could be over something that is purely acceptable and even the correct response.

And sometimes, as you know, it could begin as a righteous indignation, as something that is purely acceptable and honorable to God, but it may develop into something sinful.

If you could explain where the Christian should be when he feels these feelings of anger rising up within him.

Sure. Well, one of the challenges in evaluating our own anger is that all anger seems righteous at the time, because anger itself is us having a sense, this is not right, this is not just.

And so you never feel more righteous than when you're angry, even if it's a sinful anger at the guy who cut you off in traffic or cheated you or something.

Robert Jones, in his book, Uprooting Anger, has a great three -fold definition of righteous anger, and I really can't improve upon it.

He says, first, righteous anger is when a real sin has taken place. Someone has done something wrong, and wrong in terms of violating the law of God.

Then, second, that anger is righteous when your concern is for God's kingdom and not your own.

To give a concrete example, I'm angry at a million babies unborn being murdered in our nation every year.

That's a real sin. And I could have a righteous anger in that these people have no regard for the image of God, and he is the one who gives life, and we have the right to take life.

And so that could be a righteous anger. On the other hand, it would be unrighteous anger if my child, just by clumsiness, spilled something.

They did not sin. I'm clumsy too sometimes. Likewise, a lot of times we're angry not because we're passionate for the kingdom of God, but more upset with people because it upsets our kingdom.

So you were late, I'm angry. It's not so much because I have a passion for the glory of God that people be respectful of time in general, but I really have this passion for my own kingdom that I want to be treated nicely.

And then the third criteria is that righteous anger is righteously expressed. And to give a concrete example of that,

I may be looking back at abortion. If that is a real sin, I could have a passionate hatred of that sin because it's an affront to God.

But then I need to express that anger righteously, and to blow up an abortion clinic with people inside, or to attack physically a doctor or someone involved in abortion would be an unrighteous expression of that anger.

So you're taking vengeance, or even if your spouse has been unfaithful, and so that's a real sin that's taken place.

And you might think, well, I'm concerned for the seventh commandment being kept. But if then you hatefully avenge yourself on them, that is not righteous anger at that point, because God has not authorized you to take revenge.

That's something that belongs to him alone. Well, I'm going to give our email address if anybody would like to send in a question of their own.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA. And obviously this is the perfect kind of subject that will lend itself to some folks wanting to remain anonymous.

So I perfectly understand that if that is your wish, if you feel rather uncomfortable identifying yourself because you're talking about a personal and private matter.

In fact, we would prefer that and obviously would not want you to divulge people's names.

And since these are coming via email and not phone call, I will make sure of that, obviously. But the email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And what are some ways we can help angered people or angry people?

We'll start with those other than ourselves, those that we know, because obviously the first thing that somebody who has an anger problem is going to do when we try to help them by pointing out this problem is they're going to be angry.

But any way to help them by diffusing that issue from the get -go and being of some kind of practical help to them?

Right. Well, the very issue you mentioned, Chris, in terms of people not appreciating being corrected on this,

Galatians 6 .1 says, If someone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore him gently.

But looking to yourself, lest you also be tempted, bear one of his burdens. And so obviously we should do so gently.

We should do so as we're walking in the Spirit, not in a fleshly way. A lot of times the

Scripture says a harsh word stirs up anger, a gentle answer turns to a wrath. And when people are angry with you, the temptation is to fight fire with fire.

I don't know about you, but if my house was burning up, I would not want them to bring flamethrowers. And so, you know, the gentleness and the love and even getting non -judgmental, in a sense you're making a judgment, but a non -condemning, not

I'm better than you because you're an angry person, but you know, I'm a sinner sometimes. I'm angry, but you come gently and lovingly, like Galatians 6 says, for the purpose of restoring, not punishing, not judging, not avenging yourself.

And then the Spirit who has to work in any sinner to turn them from their way, our job is to point them to the truth and point them to Christ and the

Lord has to work. And then something that's really the heart of the little mini book is truths from the

Bible that should transform an angry believer. An angry person is lying to himself.

He has a false view of reality. And so we need to tell him the truth from the

Word of God. This is also an area where there's such a contrast between worldly anger management, and I've had counselees sometimes, and they've yelled at their boss, or they've been angry in public, or they've had abuse problems, which we'll get to in the next hour, and they've been sentenced to anger management classes.

And these are to kind of suppress, express, manage anger.

But the Scripture says that we can not just control our anger and hold it in, but it's actually the kind of the water of the grace of God in the

Gospel. And there are truths in the Word of God that as we remind ourselves of these truths for a believer, it should calm us down.

And something that's really the heart of the booklet is five things, and it could be five things

I need to tell myself if I'm angry, or five things which could be of help if I could get someone to listen to me when they struggle.

And actually, the source of these things, it's a way of organizing it. It's kind of like, how many points of Calvinism are there?

I didn't pick five for that reason, but as a summary of what the Bible teaches, kind of a systematized version,

I just found over and over again, these were very helpful for people to change their thinking from an ungodly, man -centered thinking, seeing their anger as God sees it, and hopefully overcoming their anger.

Well, why don't you go through those five steps? I would be delighted to.

The first thing, this isn't something

I just teach others. This is something actually at the end of the booklet I describe the situation where my young adult son had been home alone for the weekend, and I get home, and he's gone, and the house is trashed,

I have to recite these to myself, because that way to kick him out.

But the first point is, if I'm angry, and you can feel yourself, you can feel yourself heating up, you can feel your mind racing, and the scripture says, be slow to anger in James chapter one.

So what do I do? And counting to ten isn't enough, in fact, I'd say count to five in a sense, but first to realize if I'm angry, it's because I want something too much.

And in James chapter four, James writes, what is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you?

Is not the source your pleasures, which wage war in your members? You lust and do not have, you commit murder.

You are envious and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.

And an angry person is angry because he did not get what he wanted, and yet that's what

I wanted. And this is true in counseling all the time, is that his husband and wife are angry at each other.

There's a famous book called Love and Respect, I don't want to go too far down that road, but she's angry because she isn't getting love, and he's angry because he's not getting respect, and part of what may be confusing them, and they're thinking, well there's nothing wrong with me wanting to be loved, there's nothing wrong with me wanting to be respected, that's what the

Bible says, my spouse should be giving me this, but they're not. And so the angry person is saying,

I want this, I want it so badly, and often what we want isn't a bad thing.

You know, I get home from a long day of work and my wife's been home all day, it's not sinful for me to want to eat when

I get home, but if my wife has lost track of time and gotten distracted and the food is not ready,

I'm going to be tempted, because I'm hungry and I want it so badly, I may be tempted because I don't have what

I want, to then express that to her in anger, because she should have been thinking about me and she should have been ready.

Another example would be, it's not wrong for a wife to hope that her husband would give her flowers or candy on Valentine's Day, and to remember that, to be romantic, but then what is she going to do if she doesn't get what she wants?

And anger is the response of saying, I was hoping for this, I wanted this, and you didn't give this to me, and so now, you know,

I'm going to express my anger. There's anger in my heart, it's going to come out, but when we want something so badly, we're willing to sin when we don't get it, we're willing to sin in order to get it, that's in a sense, idolatry, rather than looking to the

Lord ultimately when disappointment comes. So that's the first point, is

I want something when I'm angry, I'm desiring something excessively, and the thing

I desire may be legitimate, but what I need is God, and in this sinful world,

I'm going to have a wife who's late, or she's going to have a husband who forgets her birthday or anniversary, and if I don't get what

I want, and then I'm tempted, and I'm feeling this anger because I didn't get what I want, I'm in very dangerous ground, and James uses the language, when you don't get what you want, you kill, which is referring back to Matthew 5, where Jesus says, if you have anger in your heart, you're a murderer, you call somebody a name, you're a murderer.

So that's the first point, if I'm angry, it's because I want something too much, and then the second thing

I need to tell myself is that if I'm angry, I need to remind myself

I am not God, which should sound pretty simple, but James says in chapter 4, when he's saying we should not judge each other, there's only one judge, and that's

God, and when I'm angry in my heart, I'm saying this person deserves to pay for what they've done wrong to me, and that could be me coming home, and my wife is distracted, and there's no dinner, and I can glare at her, and not even say a word, and just,

I can be cold to her, I can give her the silent treatment, and somebody might yell, somebody might hit, somebody might make their spouse sleep in the doghouse or something, but there's some form, be it verbal, physical, through action, through attitude, because you have hurt me,

I'm going to wrong you, I'm going to punish you, I'm going to take revenge, which Romans 12 says we're not allowed to do, because vengeance belongs exclusively to God, and a beautiful story which reflects this is when

Joseph was with his brothers in Genesis 50, when they come, and they bow before him, and they're afraid, what is the first thing

Joseph says? He says, am I in the place of God? And the answer is no, you're not in the place of God.

Joseph says even though they deserve to be punished, he's not going to play God and punish them, but when we're angry, we're tempted to play

God, so I need to remind myself it's not my office to judge. Yeah, that especially comes into play where it's most obvious, in its most grotesque form, when we murder someone, or physically retaliate against them.

I'm not talking about self -defense, of course, I'm talking about abusing someone physically, out of anger.

We are behaving like God, that we are so righteous that we deserve to punish someone.

Right, and of course where Jesus says if you're angry in your heart, or if you call someone a name, that also is the same as the sin of murder, just as lust is the same as the sin of adultery.

I think that's what James is referring to in chapter 4. I don't think people were literally murdering each other physically in the early church, but as people didn't get what they want from each other, then the temptation is to verbally, to mentally murder.

You know, in my case, you know, I don't yell at my wife. My temptation is just me to be kind of grumpy, and not make eye contact, and not talk very much, and that wounds her, that hurts her, and that is me expressing my anger in a sinful way that is in the category of murder, even though it isn't something that, you know, visibly comes to that level.

We have a listener in Slovenia, Joe, who says,

Please ask Brother Jim to exegete, interpret, and apply

Ephesians chapter 4, 6 through 7. Be angry, yet do not sin.

Do not let the sun go down on your anger. And verse 27, and do not give the devil an opportunity.

How should we live out these instructions in our day -to -day lives? Oh, that's a great question, and that's, and one aspect of that is how seriously we need to take sinful anger, because he says, if you allow anger to continue, you're opening the door to the devil.

I actually had a guy who would get very, very angry with his wife, and I used this analogy that he was kind of a tough guy, and I said,

You wouldn't leave the doors of your house unlocked, especially if there was a gang in the neighborhood, or you knew somebody was trying to get in.

You would keep those who would harm your family out, and you'd do whatever it took to keep your family safe, and yet when you allow yourself in the house in your state of sinful anger, you are inviting the devil himself in to wreak havoc in your home.

So he says, be angry and do not sin. Certainly, there is such a thing as a righteous anger, which we already talked about, that would be not sinfully expressed, and would be expressed in a way that is righteous, which could be a gentle rebuke or correction.

Although, as I read Ephesians, one different people have different ideas on it. The sense I get is that when something happens unjust to me, that whatever, you know, for the wife, whose husband, you know, the day of the anniversary is nearly over, and he is neglected.

When something happens provocative, or somebody cuts you off in traffic, you're going to experience in your body and your mind the reaction to this injustice of anger, but then in that moment, you have to process it in a godly way, and not let it continue to devolve to where you want to take vengeance and express that anger sinfully.

You need to humble yourself before God, have self -control, realizing that if you do not exercise that self -control, you're going to displease

God, and you're going to damage other people, and damage relationships. So that's how

I would take that question. I really like the question a lot. Well, guess what,

Joe in Slovenia, you are getting a free copy of this booklet that we are discussing,

My Anger is Out of Control, by Jim Neuheiser, and thank you so much for providing an

American address, so we will mail this to your daughter through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service as soon as possible, and we thank cvbbs .com,

that's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, for mailing out all of our winner's free books and bibles and dvds and everything else that we give away to listeners who submit questions, and a shout out to Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And we do have some more listeners who have questions here. We have an anonymous question, or questioner

I should say, and let me, let's see, we have to enlarge this because I'm going blind and the email has a very tiny font, so excuse me for this.

Let's see, the anonymous questioner says, I wonder what your guest's advice would be to an anonymous wife enduring a husband's fit of rage almost daily, even if she is not particularly the target of those fits.

Is she to remain in the home during those times he is irrationally enraged, or is it okay to exit until such a time as he calms down?

And in fact, I'm going to have you pick that question up when we return from the break,

Jim, so you can answer that when we return. And we do have a number of people already holding on to have their questions asked and answered, but if you would like to join them as well, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours of the program is

Jim Neuheiser, and we are discussing two very important topics today, as I think we always do on Iron Sharpens Iron, or at least we address one important topic every day.

Today we're addressing two, and the first is help my anger is out of control, and the second hour we will be addressing help someone

I love has been abused, and our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and before the break, Jim, I was reading an anonymous listener's question.

She has a bit more to say, but for the part of her question, as I read to you before the break,

I wonder what your guest's advice would be to an anonymous wife enduring a husband's fit of rage almost daily, even if she is not particularly the target of those fits.

Is she to remain in the home during those times he is irrationally enraged, or is it okay to exit until such a time as he calms down?

And I would be cautious in terms of giving counsel based on the limited amount of information.

You also have to speak pretty generally, because there's such a range of actual situations that could be describing, and a lot of it pertains to the second topic in battle mind kind of switching back and forth, and that verbal expressions of anger, when

Jesus says, if you're angry, you're speaking angrily, it's murderous.

And for the wife, even if the anger is not directed at her, it still smells like murder.

It still has the aroma of this fleshly, and all the things, all the deeds of the flesh that are involved in outbursts of anger that lives in Galatians 5.

So I can understand that if he's angry enough to put his fist to the wall because his football team lost, or because his boss gave him a hard time, because the internet isn't working or something, it's not hard for her to imagine that anger being at her, because sooner or later she's bossing.

So I think what he is doing is very serious. Jesus would say in Matthew 5, it's very serious sin, and even though it's not directed right at her,

I understand why she could feel that she is in danger, and why it is hurtful and offensive.

And then in terms of what her options are at that point, there's details we don't know.

Does he profess to be a believer? Is he a member of a church? Well, I think she as a wife has the right,

Galatians 6, to gently speak to him, probably not when he's in the midst of the anger, but when things have calmed down, and express her concern to him.

I think if he continues these fits of rage, I think Matthew 18, where it says, you go to your brother, if he won't listen to you, bring others in,

I don't think that her, the requirement that she submit to him means that he has the right to tell her she can't get help in a very bad situation in their home and in their marriage.

Matthew 18, Jesus didn't say, unless he's your husband or your father, in which case you have to keep your mouth shut. I think she has the right, if they're in the context of the church, to seek help for his restoration because of this very serious problem.

And then the church would get involved, counseling him, correcting him, doing what's necessary.

And I think in terms of the immediate situation, which really pertains to the abuse, we have a responsibility, the scripture says, to protect those who are helpless.

And so my general rule would be if she believes that she is at risk, certainly of physical harm, that she has the right to get safe and to get help.

And, you know, Proverbs 31, you know, open your mouth to the mute for the right of the unfortunate, open your mouth and judge righteously, defend the rightfully afflicted and the needy.

And so it's hard to know what's going to take someone from verbal expressions of anger to physical expressions of anger, but it's all in the continuum together.

Now it just makes him more angry if she said, well, I'm afraid to tell, I would never hit you, often the person would say.

But if she, for her own safety, for the safety of the children, believes that she needs to temporarily get out, if she believes that she needs to get help, again, not just to get rid of this troublesome man, but to try to help him, help their marriage.

In light of the danger issue, I would err on the side of her safety, trying to do so in a way that isn't overly provocative to him, but also in a way that help will be offered so this awful cycle won't continue.

And I'm assuming that due to the fact that the anonymous listener used the term rage,

I'm assuming that you wouldn't have any problem with a wife witnessing her husband in a fit of rage, especially if that is involving any kind of violence.

I'm assuming that you would think it is completely right and acceptable for her to immediately flee out of that house with the children, if they have them, to a neighbor or anything that would keep her safe until this situation changes, because rage is a pretty strong word that she's used here.

Right, that's what I'm saying, because I don't want her to go saying, well, Jim told me to do this.

You don't want a rageful husband looking for Jim. Well, I'm not as worried about that, but I'm just saying,

I would ask a lot more questions, but in general, if someone believes they're in danger from an angry person and they feel that violence is a possibility, they have a right to protect themselves and even to protect that person from doing something that could ruin their lives.

And again, family, the church should be there, neighbors third, perhaps, to help protect, but then not just to get physically safe, but to address, try to address him.

Again, is he a believer? Is he not a believer? Is he a church member? There's situations like this going on where these are officers in the church acting this way, and there's this horrible, ugly, hidden issue going on at home where everybody thinks he's great, and he is raging verbally, but she's fearful he's going to cross the line, and next time when he throws something, it's going to hit her instead of the wall.

And I don't think that that sin has a right to privacy either. I mean, just escaping temporarily and then going back,

I think help needs to be sought, again, not to condemn the guy, not to destroy the marriage, but to be able to restore the peace of the home, to keep her safe.

And like you said, that with some sense that he is committed to her safety, if he's repentant over his murderous anger, he should be the first person to say she has every right to be safe, and he regrets having driven her out instead of what is often the case.

You know, he just is more angry because his rights have been violated by his wife running out the door, and she's making a big deal of nothing, which is often the angry, abusive personality response to this.

And the second part of this anonymous listener's question is, if there is no attempt at an improvement to such behavior, is this type of anger abandonment?

Is this man's behavior an evidence of an unbeliever, even if he claims to be a

Christian? Right, and that's why I was so cautious earlier, is that, you know, have

I seen situations where he had a violent, it could be, by the way, it's been a woman as well as the wife, as well as the husband.

Yes, yes, I mean, you might even have a man who is just physically weaker than his wife.

He may even be disabled, or may be older, or any number of reasons why he is being abused.

In fact, I have even heard of one case where a man was physically abused by his wife because he had a very godly, biblical, old -fashioned, if you will, concept that you don't hit a woman.

And the cases I've seen, it wasn't because she was bigger and stronger, but because she was angry and hateful, and God gave the husband restraint.

And, you know, it wasn't that he couldn't have hit her back or something, but God gave him grace not to do it. So, if you're with someone who's violent like that, you have a right to get away.

If that person is completely unwilling to live at peace with you, that could wind up through a process, but the process is very extensive in terms of if you're getting to that point.

And that's the question. If he professes to be a Christian, is he a member of the Church? The Church needs to be involved.

The Church needs to do everything they can to try to save the marriage. The Church needs to disciple him, help her.

There's also truth. I've seen cases where one spouse is provoking the other, simply, and finds some pleasure in seeing them erupt, like they won.

And so, there's so much involved in a situation like this that I don't know, but it could be possible where the

Church approaches the man, he's unrepentant, he's violent, you know, maybe he's abused the kids and the state has even said, if you let that guy back in your house, we will take those kids from you.

There are all kinds of scenarios that can occur. A lot of it would really boil down to you approach the person through Church discipline.

He could be declared an unbeliever if you get that far, 1 Corinthians, but a lot of it would be, are you willing to live at peace with her?

And living with peace with her means if she feels unsafe, she can get out. You live within these constraints.

And he says, no, I have every right to beat her whenever I want to. I could see it getting as far as the question implies.

My fear is that some people, the first time they see a flash of anger in a husband, it could be a wife, ah,

I've got ground. We, being great sinners, want everything we can, what

God is doing, let no man separate, to try to save the marriage, to get the logs out of our own eye, to try to rescue this person from the consequences of their sin, get all the help the

Scripture says from the Church, from the Scriptures. But are there cases where someone is so violent, so cruel, so hard -hearted, that it could wind up in divorce?

I'm leaving the door open for that, but there's a long road to get there. And fundamentally, it would be that person who's angry, mean, and violent, abusive.

Essentially, they've made the decision not to be willing to live in peace. It's not just that the offended, innocent party has said, okay,

I've got you now, I have a ticket to get out of the marriage. Yeah, and lest there is someone who is so warped in their thinking, and I'm speaking especially to men out there who think that, well, a wife is supposed to be submissive to her husband, therefore, if my wife doesn't submit to me,

I am free to use this kind of physical force when I feel necessary.

If somebody is that delusional, or twists the Scripture that much,

I would like them to think for a moment, if they were alone in the pastor's study, knowing that a member of a congregation, a member of the flock, is to be submissive to their elders, and that elder started slapping you around.

Is that justifiable, just because you're supposed to be submissive to your elders? That this man could physically harm you in any way, or use violence against you?

Obviously, you'd probably be the first one to call the police, or what have you, if that were to happen.

You'd think that this is crazy. Well, then you should be looking at yourself that way, wouldn't you think? I would like to tag on to that, because I think you brought up a couple of really important points about, now we're more on the abusive, angry personality.

First of all, the kind of guy who demands absolute obedience from his wife, absolute submission, nobody else can talk to her, she can't talk to anybody else, is the same guy who has a total disregard for any authority above him, typically.

So, the people under him, in his view, they have to submit no matter how sinful he is, and they can't talk to anybody about his sin.

But there is no pastor good enough for this guy to respect, and he has the same attitude, typically, towards the government, towards bosses, etc.

And so, it's only a one -way view of authority. And another particular characteristic of abusive men is they use

Ephesians 5 .22, wives submit to your husbands, and here's a guy who hurts his wife physically, screaming at her, maybe getting drunk, you name it, and he forbids, he says,

I have authority over you, I forbid you telling anybody else about my sin. You know, all of those, or some of those.

And I'd go back, Galatians 6 .1 doesn't say, unless it's your husband. Matthew 18 .15 doesn't say, unless it's your husband.

A wife has the right to be shepherded by the leaders of the church, even as a wife, you know, gets to that point, to calling upon the civic authorities, the government, to keep her safe.

And the husband's authority was not given so that he could continue to protect himself from the consequences of his sin, and shield himself from the authorities

God has placed over him. It was given to him to serve and care for her. But it's a very common thing, and it's very common in Christians, for men to be treating their wives and their children horribly.

And for them, they say, you can't tell anybody about what I'm doing. And I think for the sake of his own soul, she has to go and get help, lest he continue to go down this path to destruction, not to mention what it's doing to her and to the children.

Anonymous, if you'd like to give me your full name and address, we will ship out to you a free copy of Help!

My Anger is Out of Control by Jim Neuheiser. And obviously, we won't divulge who you are on the air.

This is really for the purpose of sending you out the free booklet. And we're going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, and there are a couple of people still waiting, and we thank you for your patience, and we will get to you as soon as possible.

But if you'd like to join them with a question of your own on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with an hour to go, is

Jim Neuheiser, Director of the Christian Counseling Program at Reform Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, and the

Executive Director of IBCD, which stands for the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship.

He is also a fellow and board member of ACBC, which is the

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. We are discussing, Help!

My Anger is Out of Control, which is a booklet he has written in a series for Shepherd Press.

And also, we are now going to be entering into, very soon, our second discussion specifically on Help!

Someone I Love Has Been Abused. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is

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So we thank you so much for your prayers, most of all, about this issue. Now we are back to have our discussion with Jim Neuheiser.

We're going to continue our discussion on Help! My Anger is Out of Control, and we will then enter into the subject of Help!

Someone I Love Has Been Abused. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and we do have

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,

Could you give us some rules that may apply to a Christian as to how to express their anger rightfully without sinning?

For instance, obviously it's never wrong, uh, should

I say, I'm sorry, I misread this, it is not always wrong to yell or raise your voice, because, for instance, if you have children who are being physically violent towards each other, you're not going to whisper to them to stop, but sometimes it is wrong to raise your voice.

And, of course, it would be completely acceptable to use physical strength to remove one child from the room or to lift him off of his sibling if he is beating that sibling.

You are not always forbidden to use any kind of physical action when it comes to anger, but sometimes it is inappropriate.

Do you have any list like this that would be some kind of a helpful guideline to Christians to know when they've crossed the line?

I think the guidelines are almost implicit in the question, and I fully affirm what the

Proverbs say about disciplining children, but I think a lot of it is, back to Matthew 5, it's within the heart.

If in your heart you're simply angry, then the loud words you use or even the way you do discipline is harmful as an expression of anger.

Discipline is meant to be like God disciplines us as our Father, where He does so lovingly for the purpose of restoration.

Thanks be to God He doesn't vent His wrath on us, because that's already been accomplished by Christ on the cross.

And so, am I doing this out of zeal for the glory of God, lovingly for the purpose of restoring my child, or am

I angry because my comfort and the order of my life has been messed up and I'm annoyed that my children are keeping me from doing what

I want to do? And so, am I avenging myself on them, which Romans 12 says, vengeance is wrong.

Parental discipline is never vengeance. It's loving correction. And outwardly, in both cases, you may have had to raise your voice.

I think that should be unusual. You may be disciplining, including something physical, but if in your heart you're enraged, out of control, like a city with the walls broken down as the

Proverbs says, as a man who has no control over his spirit, that is a simply angry expression as opposed to lovingly restoring.

And so, I would be very suspect of thinking I have righteous anger with my kids, because I'm afraid that could be expressed very sinfully.

And I would say the fruit of the Spirit is self -control. The fruit of the Spirit is patience. The fruit of the Spirit is love.

The beads of the flesh include the rage and the outbursts of anger. And so, am

I walking in the Spirit? It's so good, I'll express it spiritually, but if I'm characterized by fleshliness, if I'm characterized by the beads of the flesh,

I'm in no position to fix anybody. I need to first get right with God to be walking in the

Spirit before I can then, as Galatians 6, 1 says, gently restore them. And even my children, when they sin, they need to be gently restored, not me avenging myself because they've wronged them.

Now, if you could address overcoming anger by the grace of God. Right.

And that was actually where we started in the last hour before we started taking questions, where I've got these five things, truths from the

Bible I need to keep reminding myself of. And we actually have a card that we give to Council Leads that goes along with the booklet that just has these five things written down, along with verses.

But realizing I'm angry because I want something too much. I desire something. James 4, 40, talk about that.

Angry, I'm tempted to play God by punishing the other person, but I'm not in the place of God, as Joseph told his brothers.

And then third, which I think is the key to the whole thing, is just remembering God's grace to me.

Ephesians 4, 31 and 32, let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God and Christ also has forgiven you.

You know, and in our heart, when we're angry, we're looking horizontally. You've wronged me.

You know, I didn't do this to you. But when you go vertical and you think in terms of God's mercy to me,

I've been forgiven far more by God than this person has done against me, the terribly unmerciful servant.

I'm the 10 ,000 talents debtor who has been completely forgiven. Now, the one who's forgiven me wants me to reflect that grace to others, and in light of God's grace,

I should have an attitude of grace and forgiveness when people wrong me instead of this attitude of judgment.

So I need to remind myself of God's grace to me and how he wants me to forgive others as he's forgiven me.

The fourth thing to tell myself is just reminding myself that God is in control. And even when other people do wrong—and it could be the kids spilling, breaking, it could be your spouse letting you down, or somebody crashing into your car—Joseph said to his brothers, you met it for evil, but God met it for good.

In that case, good many lives might be saved. That's kind of the Roman day 28 of the Old Testament. God works all things together for good for those who love him, for those who are called according to his purpose.

So whatever even other people do in my life, and they may, like Joseph's brothers, they may be guilty of wronging me, but ultimately

God, who loves me as a father, has allowed this to happen. He's also promised he will not tempt me beyond what he's made me able in 1

Corinthians 10 and 13. And so I need to recognize he's in control. I'm angry because I'm not in control.

Right, I'm not. But he's allowed this to happen. I need to see what he does through it.

He's working it all for his glory and for my good. And then the fifth thing is I need to remember who

I am as a new creature in Christ. Roman 6 11, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive to God in Christ.

When I was in the flesh, when I was an unbeliever, I couldn't control my anger. But as Roman 6 says, that guy died.

And I'm a new person in Christ, raised with him. And now I don't have to be out of control.

I can be under the control of the Spirit. I can bear the fruit of the Spirit. I'm no longer a slave to sin.

And actually these, even the provocations that tempt me to get angry or opportunity to see God working in me, when the heat of temptation comes and disappointment and hurts, that God can enable me to bear the fruit of the

Spirit instead of the deeds of the flesh because of what he's done for me in Christ. You know, looking at this cover for the booklet, you have a picture of a fist, which looks like it's going through sheetrock and reminds me of some foolish things

I did as a young man growing up in fits of rage. Things that I no longer do because now

I would have to pay for the kind of damage. And one thing that I think is a very prevalent problem with even

Christians, because I have not only done this myself, but I have witnessed many other

Christians, even pastors, do this. That is what we know as traffic jam anger, to put it mildly, where people will say words that they typically would never say in front of their

Christian friends, especially when congregating at church. And perhaps some hand gestures here and there will be sinfully used to other automobile drivers.

And this is not only a sin, but you could be inviting upon yourself some serious violence because of this phenomenon known as road rage, where we actually have people being murdered because of upsetting other drivers on the highway.

But any advice before we move on to help someone

I love has been abused? Anything you care to say about road rage? That's a great example,

Chris. There's a couple things I would say. First of all, is this pastor who's so angry reformed?

Does he believe God is sovereign in all things? Then who is he angry at? God, who has allowed this to happen.

And being a traffic jam, or to be in a long line, or to have a waiter who messes up your order, ultimately the

God who controls all things has allowed this to come into your life, perhaps to test you, perhaps to sanctify you.

And if you're angry, ultimately you're angry with God. That would be the first thing. The Jesus said, if you hate this person you're calling an idiot or worse things in your heart, and you're calling names like that, you're the murderer, according to Jesus in Matthew 5 21 and following.

And it's also, it's not just, it could be affecting the people outside of your car, but even more, you know, your wife is there, your kids are there, and now they're the presence of murder.

They get it, it stinks, it's awful, and they're uncomfortable, and they're miserable, and whatever useless, you know, venting you feel like you did, and venting is not a difficult concept at all, but whatever you think somehow that made you feel better to try to verbally avenge yourself, you're damaging them to be in the presence of such hateful anger, you're setting a horrible example to them, and so the fruit of this, if you're walking in the spirit, this is not going to be coming out of you.

Life is full of provocation. We live in a fallen world, full of sinners. Some of them are in the house, they're all over the place, in traffic, and how does

God want us to respond to that, but to say, again, He's in control, and who am

I again, back to, you know, what do I want? I want the traffic to be my way. I want to play

God and judge these idiots. I want a cannon in my car to shoot them. Well, I'm not God. God has been so, where should

I be right now? I'm not in traffic, not in an air -conditioned car. I should be in hell right now. God has shown infinite kindness, and patience, and mercy to me.

Who am I to be judging these people? And then, if God is in control, please allow this to happen, and finally,

I'm a new creature in Christ. Yeah, this is the way I was before God saved me, but I don't have to be this anyway, because Christ has set me free from slavery to sin, and the flesh, and He's made me able to bear spiritual fruit of love, and joy, and peace, and patience, and all these things, even under the pressure of others sinning against me.

Yes, and I think that we should also not forget, especially when it involves a traffic jam, that we don't even know what's going on down the road that God, being omniscient and omnipresent, knows.

And God may be preserving your very life, because He knows that if you were to be at a certain place on the road sooner, if you were to get to a certain destination faster, there are times that we will never know this side of glory, and perhaps never know that God is actually rescuing us from something that lies ahead that we are unaware of.

Yes, and that's trusting Him that He's in control. Again, I want to be in control, which is

I want to play God. Something we actually created that I sent you an email with that as an attachment, and we made this card that we print up thousands of.

We call it the anger card that actually has these five things on it, and people could print it if they want.

But we would pass these out to people and say, this is the kind of thing you need to stick in your car, and in your, you know, on your mirror, bathroom, or wherever.

Just a summary, if here's what God says to your anger, over and over again, not just the concepts, but the verses as well, that when

I'm angry, I'm thinking unbiblical. My thinking is false and idolatrous and unbelieving, and so I need to remember these truths of how gracious God has been to me, that He's in control, that He's working good.

The change He's made in me, I don't have to live this way. It's not my calling to judge others, and it's just a reminder in my flesh, the things

I want. I want things so badly, I'm willing to kill verbally, mentally, if I don't get it. The only thing

I ultimately need is God, and then I trust Him to give everything else

I need, and maybe He needs me to be late because I'm in traffic so that I can go and race.

Well, if anybody wants to get a hold of this booklet that we are discussing, Help! My Anger is

Out of Control, or any of the other booklets in the series by Jim Neuheiser, you can go to the

Shepard Press website, which is shepardpress .com,

shepardpress .com, and in the search engine you could type in Neuheiser, which is

N -E -W -H -E -I -S -E -R, where you see a search engine there at the right corner of the screen on the

Shepard Press page, and you can see all of the booklets that are a part of the series written by Jim Neuheiser.

And you can also go to our sponsors, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for Bible Book Service, .com, and order anything by Jim from them.

They have quite a number of these booklets and other things by Shepard Press available at cvbbs .com.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings, owners of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, for their graciousness in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron, and by shipping out all of our winners their free books and DVDs and CDs and all these other things that they win by participating in the program through their questions for our guests.

And we are transitioning now over to specifically address the second topic for today, help someone

I love has been abused, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question on that issue, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you could, Jim, define abuse.

What is it? One definition of abuse would be the intentional mistreatment of someone else, and a lot of this even gets into legal definitions in terms of government, like physical abuse of a child and the non -accidental injury of a child.

There's also neglect. There's sexual abuse. It ties in very much to anger, typically, in that much of what we think of as abuse could be hitting someone or people talk about verbal abuse and verbally murdering them, screaming at them.

These are expressions of anger. Sexual abuse would be lost...often

there's anger involved, but it's more often lost. So simply mistreating others would be a broad definition.

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who asks, could verbal abuse in the family give children false and sinful assertions of who

God is? Obviously, he's specifying verbal abuse, but any kind of abuse, would that be the case?

Yeah, that's a good question, and I would give a qualified yes in that I think family is a huge influence, and you all told me in the verses that people debate over where sins are visited to multiple generations.

I think one way that sin is passed down to generations can be a horrible example.

So there's statistics that show that people who came from very abusive families, people who have been abused, are prone to be abusers themselves.

Those who are punished by angry parents who beat them in a rage, over -punish them, didn't do so lovingly, that's the model they had, and they tend to default to that.

And so, yeah, I think that's a huge reason why we as parents should yearn for loving self -control.

On the other hand, I'm also comforted by the fact that 1 Peter 1 tells us that, verse 18, knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like gold, silver, or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, for the precious blood is of the

Lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. And some of the comfort I get from that verse is that you may have inherited a horrible example from your forefathers, just as, you know, perhaps

Peter's original readers inherited paganism, idolatry. The gospel of Christ, the blood of Christ redeems us from the horrible things about our parents, our forefathers.

And so, you're not consigned, if your parents were abusive, this was an influence in your life, but the gospel can break the power of that influence and enable you to walk in the

Spirit and be different from your forefathers. You're not condemned out of necessity, deterministically, that you're going to be just like them.

The gospel can transform us and enable us to be parents who better reflect

God as a father towards our own children than our parents did to us.

So, that's the comforting part of the answer to that question, but I think the essential core of the question was correct, is that how parents treat their children, including abusively, has influence.

But I'm so thankful to God it's not determinative. Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, wants to know, why is it that Jesus chasing the money changers out of the temple would not be considered abuse?

Well, the verse quoted from the Old Testament is, zeal for your house shall consume me. So, Jesus, going back to the criteria of righteous anger, a real sin was taking place, a great sin, that the temple was being desecrated by this merchandising.

Jesus' concern was not a personal offense against him, even in its humanity, his zeal was for his

Father. And so, for us, righteous anger is where we're concerned about the glory of God and that God isn't getting what he deserves, we're not getting what we deserve.

And righteous anger is righteously expressed. And he, as the Son of God, in turning over those tables and rebuking those people, was acting justly.

He had every right to do that. Such circumstances in our lives may be rare, but his is a righteous expression of anger against a real sin against God.

An analogy I could give in terms of my own counseling, and it relates to abuse, is that when a man comes in and he's guilty of beating a child, beating his wife, in his arrogance, thinking he has every right to do so,

I believe, I mean, I've had times in counseling where I believe I was experiencing very righteous anger, where I wasn't screaming out of control, but I raised my voice, and from the

Word of God, I strongly admonished a person and pronounced warning and judgment upon him if he doesn't repent.

And I believe that's as close as I get to righteous anger, and maybe something in some way resembling what the

Scripture describes our Lord expressed and experienced in his own life. Yes, and of course what

Christ did was not like the scourging or flagellation he received at the pillar.

It was nothing like that. There was no indication that there was serious bodily harm done to any of these money changers.

It was really something that seemed to frighten them and cause them to flee, but there was no serious or remaining injury as a result that we can see from the text.

If he would have called down fire from heaven, it would have been what they deserved. Yes. It was merciful. They got driven out.

And Jesus is unique in that it's God the Son. We know he's without sin, but also it's

God the Son. He has authority in that situation. That is his Father's house.

The one and only unique Son of God that was a unique situation.

Go ahead, I'm sorry. That's not that we would never be in a situation of righteous anger, but I'm very suspect of my own righteous anger because I know

I'm capable of deceiving myself about my anger, and when I calmed down I realized

I wasn't quite as righteous in my expression of that anger as I thought at the time. Jesus was not susceptible to a fleshly sin nature like mine that could be self -perceived about how justified my anger might be.

Yes, and of course there are things that God has the exclusive right to that no creature has any right to participate in.

Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, and of course even the condemnation of people to hell, which might by an unbiblically trained mind might be viewed as abuse, and even people have wickedly described the crucifixion of Christ as the worst case of child abuse in human history.

They don't understand that God being a holy and righteous supreme being has rights to things that we do not have the right to even approach.

Yes, and Jesus even in the passage, it's zeal for God's house. His passion was purely for God.

When I'm angry, usually the reason I'm angry is because it was my ox that got gored. It was something about me.

It's not that I had this passion for the glory of God as much as I've taken personal offense, and that's what made it a big deal to me.

That becomes concern for my kingdom and not God's kingdom. I mean, another passage refers to our

Lord, I think it's in Mark 3, looking around at them with anger and grief, but they're hardness of heart. He was indignant, and so, you know,

Jesus perfectly hates what God hates, and his passion is and was for the glory of his

Father. We can experience that, but be careful if you think that's what you're doing, because yours is not going to be as pure as his was.

And by the way, Tyler and Arnie, you're both getting copies of the book, booklet,

Help! Someone I Love Has Been Abused, so please give us your full mailing addresses, and CVBBS .com

will get those out to you as soon as possible. And by the way, any of you who are wondering why you may not yet have received a book that you have won by submitting a question on Iron Sharpens Iron in recent weeks, well, the trip

I had to Atlanta to the G3 conference and subsequent battle with the flu has kind of held things back, but hopefully within the next week or so, everyone will have their

Bibles and their books and everything else they won shipped to them by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

We're going to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages with Jim Neutheiser, and our subject at hand,

Someone I Love Has Been Abused. Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords I guess, then it depends, what is your relationship with this person?

If you hardly know them, it's going to be very difficult to get that close. If you're a pastor, a leader, and you've seen something, then back to the

Proverbs 31 and places in the Psalms where we have a duty to protect the weak, you might look for opportunity to ask a question.

If you're a close friend, sometimes just being with the person and building relationship, they might be comfortable, might feel safe confiding in you.

So, it really depends on what evidence has led you to think this, and if it's fairly substantial evidence, to gently inquire as to what may be going on and to give hope of help, which gets back to the whole, what kind of support mechanism is there?

Is there a godly church? Is the husband a professing believer? Coming with answers, you know, and if it's an extreme case, getting involved to the extent of providing a safe place for that person to go.

But 1 Corinthians 13 says, first of all, I think, love hopes all things. Love assumes the paths.

So, you want to be very careful about making an accusation unless you have proof. I don't think it's wrong if you see smoke to gently inquire as to whether there might be a fire.

But the smoke you think you see, maybe she really did fall down. Maybe the husband raising his voice that one time is highly unusual.

But, you know, people who have been abused often protect the abuser for various reasons.

And so, I appreciate the concern of the question is that if we suspect that's taking place, we should be praying for that person.

And if we're close to that person, looking for an opportunity, if they feel safe to confide in us, then to offer them the help the word of God supplies through the church, through other means, his family, that they could be safe and the problem could be addressed.

Well, thank you, Anonymous, and please give us your full name and mailing address. And we will have this booklet shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for CumberlandValleyBBS .com.

They will ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us. We thank them for alleviating us from the shipping costs of all these folks who regularly win

Bibles, books, and other items by submitting questions. If you could, how can victims become overcomers?

Yeah. I think that the victim needs to deal with the temptations they have in their own heart, which can be many.

Sometimes a victim can have false guilt. If I was just a better wife, then he wouldn't get angry.

He wouldn't hit me. Realizing that, yeah, I mean, I should deal with my own shortcomings, but there's no behavior, there's no failure on the part of one spouse that justifies the other spouse verbally or physically murdering them.

Sometimes there's fear that if, you know, things will just get worse if I seek help or if I confront him, and I would take him by the way the

Bible says in Matthew 18. You know, if there's serious sin going on, the purpose is to restore this person.

But if they say, well, if I were to bring in somebody else, he would leave me, he would kill me, whatever she's afraid of, well, you need to study what the

Bible says you should do in this situation. You may need to get wise counsel, and then you need to trust in the

Lord and not lean on your own understanding. If the Proverbs says, and overcome your fear by following what the

Scripture says, sometimes they have a wrong concept of submission.

Well, submission means I take a beating. Submission means that I should never report anybody, report him or tell anybody.

And this is, I think, something that churches have a responsibility to make clear as well. Churches, I mean, there are some situations where I think women who have been mistreated have gone to counseling in their church.

And the attitude, the response they've gotten is, if you were just more submissive, if you were just a better wife, he wouldn't be so angry.

And I don't disagree that the wife is a sinner as well.

But I think a lot of times churches have really been guilty of horrible failures, and sometimes even sending a woman back to physical danger or laying on her the blame for the situation.

You know, here's a guy who's yelling and screaming at all the time, and basically saying, if you're just more affectionate to this guy and more loving, then he would be okay.

You know, some people are so wicked, no matter how nice you are to them, they just take more advantage of you, beat you all the more, manipulate you.

And sometimes angry people, they get what they want with their anger. And so I think many churches have failed to offer that protection and to hold the abusive person adequately accountable for their sin.

And so those are a few things. And then there are other truths from Scripture in terms of this person.

We have hope in that we have a Savior who was abused.

And the Scripture says in Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 4, He sympathizes with us. He understands.

He hates what is being done to you. And even though you may feel alone, you're not alone.

He will never leave you nor forsake you. I think this is a place where the justice of God sometimes is helpful to understand that even if the church fails you, the family fails you, the government fails you, that ultimately

God will protect you and bring justice. I think helping them have a biblical view of suffering and that what's happened to them like Joseph could say in Genesis 50 verse 20, you minute people,

God never did. Somehow God is at work. That doesn't mean take a beating and you have rights biblically, but have hope that as God for the greater good allowed

His Son to suffer for us. He has some purpose in what's happened. He's not out of control.

He's not abandoning you. He is there for you. Addressing issues of potential forgiveness, having a heart of forgiveness unconditionally, but then the conditions of granting forgiveness if the other party repents.

And then the great news is kind of like we were talking earlier about if you've had abusive parents is that the person who's been abused does not have to be labeled by and identified.

I am a victim and now I'm going to be an abuser. Now I'm going to be bitter. Now I can't trust people. You don't have to fall into those sins that typically come with being the victim of abuse.

By the grace of God, you can walk in the spirit and overcome the softening and the fear, all the temptations that go with that.

And the Lord can help you to be an overcomer. Joseph is a great story in the

Bible to go through. He was horribly abused by his brothers on nearly end of death.

Then he was sexually harassed by his employer's wife, and then he was mistreated by being cast into jail.

But he didn't become a bitter, vengeful, hateful person because he keeps saying the Lord's with him.

And Joseph was walking with the Lord. At the end of Genesis, when he had his chance to avenge himself, or even earlier when his brothers revealed themselves to him, because he was walking with God, the victim of abuse didn't become an abuser, didn't become vengeful, even loved the people who had abused him and cared for them, and I think rejoiced when

God finally brought them to repentance. Amen.

We do have an anonymous listener who says, Is it ever right for a husband to use physical restraint to prevent his spouse from doing something that may be harmful to herself or others?

For instance, if an intoxicated wife is determined to go outside to the car and drive away, is it ever right for the husband to, without doing any kind of injury whenever possible, put the woman in a bear hug or something like that until she calms down?

Obviously, things like this could be easily viewed as abuse when the intent is never abuse, but the exact opposite.

I'm not talking about tying someone to a chair or anything like that. I'm talking about using reasonable physical restraint to prevent harm to the spouse or others.

Right, and so again, I know this is another question where I don't know if this person has gone through this.

There are people who have gone through this. Another example would be you have a husband who's out of control and he's beating a kid and the kid may be potentially injured, and I think the wife has a right to seek her safety and the safety of her child or even to protect this person from themselves.

So, yeah, could there be this rare case? Yes. Is that the danger of it becoming abusive the other way?

Yes. But again, who can you call? Well, you call 911 if you need to.

If other lives are in danger, a person who's drunk or otherwise inebriated is about to get in a car if someone is a danger to themselves or others, we as counselors actually have a legal obligation to get the civic authorities involved to offer protection to life.

So, yeah, I mean I could see a situation where, you know, the husband is coming at the kids for bodily harm and the wife is trying to figure out in that awful situation, what is the best thing

I can do to protect life? Part of it also would be,

I don't want to do too much hypothetical, is that I would pray with all my heart if you had a man that hateful and angry, that God would provide a way of escape that did not involve a massive physical altercation.

I can't promise that would never happen. You know, the example given was a little easier where if you've got a 200 pound man and a 105 pound woman and she's out of control, um you know, he might temporarily restrain her.

I would try to get the church authority or civic authority or somebody there pretty fast to help get control of the situation so it's not just on him.

Well, thank you Anonymous, and if you give me your full mailing address and full name, we will remain anonymous, of course, and we will get this booklet out to you.

Help, someone I love has been abused by Jim Neuheiser and that will be shipped to you by cvbbs .com.

And I'd like you, Jim, to basically have the floor uninterrupted for about five minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we move on to any further listeners who have a question.

Um, something we haven't talked about as much is the heart of the abuser, and the heart of the abuser is really the heart of anger as well.

And people abuse because they think they have rights and they've convinced themselves that if they don't get what they want, they have the right to vent that anger sinfully.

And abusers can be manipulative, controlling. They typically will minimize their own sin, blame others, uh, very, very self -centered.

They can be exceptionally deceitful and even charming. Sometimes they make much better counselee than the victim of abuse.

And the poor victim says, well, nobody's going to believe me because everybody loves him. it's been observed, you know, abusers tend to fall, follow a cycle of building up, blowing up, oh,

I'm sorry, and then over and over that happens. And counseling victims of abuse, as hard as that is, in one sense, is at least easier than counseling abusers.

It takes a great work of the Spirit of God to take someone who's been playing God and imposing themselves physically, controlling others, justifying it in their own mind, blaming others, to really repent.

Not just repent of their action where, yeah, I know I shouldn't have hit her, I went too far, but repenting of a heart of anger, a heart full of contempt for the rights of others and the self -centeredness, even the narcissism of, you know,

I must have my way or else, to be a person who's genuinely broken. And yet the

Spirit can do that. But, uh, the repentance of an abuser must not just be for what they did.

They need to be in Psalm 51, like David, and just broken over the awfulness of their sin, the awfulness of of playing

God. Uh, 2nd Corinthians 7 warns against a worldly sorrow as opposed to a godly sorrow.

Uh, Wayne Mack has an excellent worksheet about a worldly sorrow versus a godly sorrow. And a worldly sorrow is kind of, it's, you know,

I want to be trusted. I want to be restored. This is so hard for me, like Cain.

A godly sorrow is going to be, I don't deserve to be trusted. What matters to me is that others are safe, not that I get my rights restored.

Like 2nd Corinthians 7, you know, whatever it takes. I'm willing and I've rarely seen a person who is abusive act that way, which gets back to a point that we need to be prepared to take strong action to protect the victim of physical abuse.

We need to be ready to admonish the verbal expressions of anger.

you know, pre -sin is very serious. The gospel alone transforms people.

And it can happen, but it is a great work of God, and it's not because I'm a great counselor if it happens, or you or anybody else, but we, we give the word, we point them to Christ.

If someone understands, like the terrible emotional sermon, if the abuser is the person who's choking and saying, pay what you owe, the person who understands that he's been forgiven, the 10 ,000 talent dead, is a humble, gracious person, not a hateful, vengeful person.

Well, thank you again, anonymous listener, and please get us your your full mailing address, and we will get this booklet out to you from cvbbs .com.

We haven't received your mailing address yet, so hopefully you'll get that out to us.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says,

I am not speaking of myself, but I have friends who live out of state, who are members of a church where they are not getting much help in the realm of counseling.

The problem is that the Christian counselors they are aware of charge too much money.

They cannot afford it. What is your advice to people in this predicament? Again, not knowing the particulars,

I don't want to judge a particular church, but in general, according to the scriptures, that elders are to shepherd the flock of God.

In 1 Peter 5, Acts 20, in Ezekiel, you have shepherds who refuse to care for the sheep in Israel being condemned in the harshest way, and so my understanding is that any sheep ought to be able to go to the shepherds of the flock and say,

I need help. The shepherds should be qualified. They know the Word of God.

They care about people. My hope and expectation would be that they would be equipped.

Godly leaders in the church would be equipped to offer help and counsel for the ordinary things that just keep happening in the church over and over again, and then if something happens that's just, wow,

I've never seen this before. This couple have a child who's cutting or this couple, you know, one of them says he wants to be transsexual or something.

I've never dealt with that before. Then get help from those in other churches or could be in a godly, biblically -based counseling ministry.

But I would say if the church is not able to, within the church, which is ideal, do this, then

I would hope the church would be willing to participate, and we will go with you to the counseling, and if you can't afford it, this is part of benevolence for us to help you with that.

The counseling ministries, which I've been involved, worked solely on a donation basis and did not charge.

I know others have a different position on that, but even most of those will generally reduce the charge if there's financial need.

But what we really need, and what my passion is, even both what we've done with IBCD equipping churches, what

I'm now trying to do at RTS, is I want to have churches full of pastors, elders, godly women who are equipped to care for disciples and counsel within the church so that going outside the church would be rare.

But that also involves people when you're choosing a church, not just to be looking for the church that has the music you like, but true shepherds who are equipped to care for the sheep.

And do you have any organizations or counseling ministries that you know of firsthand that you could recommend?

I think ACBC is a network of certified biblical counselors, not state certified, but this organization is a good place to start.

And there are over a thousand people scattered around, mostly in the U .S., some around the world. And their website,

I have it right in front of me, is biblicalcounseling .com. Biblicalcounseling .com.

Any place else? That's where I would begin. The secondary place to look would be to the

Biblical Counseling Coalition, which networks together lots of biblical counseling ministries around the country and around the world.

You could poke around there and see if you found something that was in your area, in your region.

So that would be a couple places I would go. But I will admit that I can't, when people approach me,

I can't always find someone within driving distance who is available.

It depends on where you live. And another challenge like, I mean, I face, we face at IBCD, is that because so many churches are neglecting this ministry, those who make themselves available outside their local church, they have limited slots or bandwidth that they can do this for the very reason, either you're not charging, you're not charging much and relying on donations.

And so it is hard to find the right person or right couple to help you, which gets back to, we need to strengthen churches so they can do it there.

But otherwise, for an emergency or situation you're in, you might look for a church in your area who has that commitment and that ability.

Looking on these other websites can help in terms of triage in an emergency situation. In the long run,

Christians need to attach themselves to churches where the shepherds care for the sheep and churches need to be equipping the whole church to care for one another in the problems of life people face.

Now IBCD, the organization that we mentioned that you, where you are the executive director, their website is

IBCD, which stands for Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship, IBCD .org

for those pastors or church leaders who want their congregations to be equipped for one another care.

Yes, and IBCD has video series which are sold for a very reasonable price.

A lot of churches will use a Sunday school curriculum, a leadership training curriculum. These include actually observation of what biblical counseling looks like in various scenarios.

They're set in homes, the kind of normal situations people are in, not just in the office. And then there are hundreds of free resources online if people just want to listen, where they can receive some equipping and training.

And the IBCD training can lead either to ACDC certification or IBCD has its own certificates that aren't quite as rigorous and demanding.

Maybe baby steps for people to show they've learned these principles and are ready to use them in their local church.

Well other than shepherdpress .com who publish your booklet series on help, any other contact information you care to give?

I appreciate PNR. I appreciate Cumberland Valley and other book publishers and booksellers who sell excellent books,

Shepherd Press, that you know are equipping people to care for one another and address their own needs and ACDC has resources on their side as well.

So I mean we live in a good time compared to 50 years ago. And we're out of time brother and I thank you for being on the program today and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater