Open Challenge to Jerry Matatics, and Dave Hunt Misrepresenting Calvinism

And welcome to Dividing Line on this Saturday afternoon. My name is James White. We have much to do today. Those in the channel see that we have as our topic Jerry Manateeke speaks at a Baptist University and Dave Hunt's recent Calvary Chapel talk.

I won't call it a sermon because I guess that's not something you do at Calvary Chapel. But we have those two major things I want to talk a little bit about something we found on Jerry Manateeke's website last night and a challenge to him To debate as well as the fact that we were sent a videotape of a very recent I believe within the last two weeks talk by Dave Hunt and The reason this is significant is this would be a talk that he has given after reading my opening Presentations in our book project and hence I would argue in a culpable way that is He knows what the truth is but continues to misrepresent it absolutely refuses To listen to what is said to him by anyone.

Dave Hunt has determined that he and he alone determines What Calvinism believes Calvinists are irrelevant they will be Assimilated anyways, we'll be talking about that. But before we do that I'd like to Bring Michael Fallon on the line.

Mike of course from Florida sets up our Work there in the Florida area. I was back there not overly long ago for the debates with John Sanders and We are looking at our cruise coming up basically a year from now in December first weekend December of 2003 and Specifically the fact that there are some there be some things a shaken in the cruise industry And they're good for you but not so good for the cruise industry thinks but They're good of the consumer and since we're putting together this apologetics cruise for December of 2003 Then we need to pass some information along to you and encourage you to get in touch with Mike Let him know of your interest and hopefully for some of you This particular information will increase your interest in Going with us in December of 2003.

So Mike what's what is going on? That is allowing us to Even have a better price for the for the cruise.

Well, certainly I think everybody's probably pretty aware of the fact that the news has been carrying both on CNN there's all the all the major news channels about Different cruise boats that have had the problem with what they call the Norwalk virus, right?

And the Norwalk viruses is nothing different than what you just called the common stomach flu right. And. The Norwalk virus though, which is interesting is something that is usually popping up mainly universities colleges hotels places like that much more so than ever in the cruise industry and.

In the cruise industry, maybe you have about 3 of cases coming from cruise ships or anything like that. So I guess that the news media has jumped on the bandwagon has found something exciting to talk about.

And in doing so they have just scared the living daylights out of people about not wanting to go on these incredible cruise boats which are immaculately clean and well taken care of and. And if you really take a look at the number of people that are on each boat and the amount of people that have Have been infected let's say somewhere around 4 ,000 people on a boat 60 people come off with the stomach flu.

That's not something really to be too scared about. You know, you you can get that sort of thing going to a debate. Let's say, you know.

I just get it from listening to the other guy at the debate. That's that's why I get sick.

Well, but you know, it's what it happened is that a lot of people I think and especially the elderly have have been scared away and We are able now though to pass on some savings to you and this will be while it's available.

All these things are of course time sensitive just much like your your airline fares and so forth. So the the price that we were told was our group rate has been dropped. We are able to pass those savings on to you so we would like to offer to the folks at Alpha Omega Ministries and the people that would like to Come on board with us and be a part of our apologetics ministry get to know.

Dr. White and his eating habits.

Boy you just you're doing so well, too. I mean you sounded smooth and polished and professional and you just wipe the whole thing out because the only thing worse than Norwalk Virus is my eating habits.

So.

You know, you don't know this but but really, you know, dr. White is a is a connoisseur of fine food. In the fact that you know, you you throw ten plates of food in front of him. He might pick a half of one.

You know.

Then even push it away. I I have a sensitive palate. Yeah.

Yes, I think his main complaint our last cruise was I think on our previous cruise boats. He really enjoyed the quality of the hamburgers. Hamburger was a little dry. Let's try to the line. So actually it was but What's going on is I tell you if you haven't cruised before This is an opportunity that you're not going to get a chance to have where you can be on board with.

First of all, you're your favorite Christian apologist a number one number two that we are going to be studying Islam and especially the The Islamic attacks on the Christian faith and how to have a apologetic response to them.

And if you've ever been a part of dr. White's conferences before This won't just be an hour-long deal and then we break and you don't get a chance to dr. L white anymore. We are going to have dr. White as well as the rest of staff of alpha-mega ministries involved and dealing with these things and lots of discussion with them for the entire time and Certainly, we're gonna have the opportunity.

I guess to many of the people who work on these cruise ships happen to be Islamic.

Which is why we're gonna be referring to Islam is Jumbala. We're studying Jumbala today.

Won't we be able to put any signs up in front of the.

The Quran exposed today. No.

No, but this is gonna be fantastic. And if you have been to other conferences Christian conferences, of course, you know that people can can take off and do other things. Well, we're on a boat together and we are all together and you'll be seeing a lot of one another.

And it just really gives you a great time to get to know us. And we can get to know you and we can we can really form lifelong bonds. So if you have had a time Before with dr. White and you really would like to be able to get a chance to sit next to him and ask him all sorts of questions.

However, most that time will be spent in the gym. So hopefully you'll need to start working out now.

Now this gym is fantastic, I'm looking forward to it. We were on a similar boat to this one, which is why we've chosen this one Back last year and the gym is just fantastic. So that's I know that's one of dr. White's main requirements.

So we are going to do that. But what we can pass on to you well, the consumer is a hundred and fifty dollar discount on each one of the Of the births which is per person.

That's a lot.

Just go ahead and take a look on the website if you if you'd like to it's going to be on the right side if you click on and just go ahead and click on where it says apologetics cruise and you go to The inside cabin where it says 899.

Just go ahead and subtract 150. Same thing for the category FF and C and so forth right on down the line. Subtract 150 from the top of each one of those. Wow, and it's a great rate. Be available for long and I really hope you'll take advantage of it and the the time that you can Be able to study with us.

That's really the reason why we do it. It's not just to go and have a good time But it's an opportunity for folks to get really involved with Alpha and Omega ministry. Now someone just asking the question.

It's a in the question. The channel is a good question. Can we have a number and I'm assuming they're asking is there a number where they can ask further questions. Contact you contact? Travel agency, whatever.

Sure. Absolutely.

My my personal cell phone number and you can give me a call anytime. It's seven two seven four five two six four five three. Or when the star travel opens up on Monday morning, you can give them a call.

It's seven two seven five eight four eight one two four and. Also, if you take a look at the website and at the bottom of the page on the apologetics information, you'll see Something that says click here to email Michael Fallon.

Pop that and you can give me an email. Send me an email and I'll respond.

To you right away. Excellent. Excellent. Well, I would really like to encourage everybody to do this talk about a cool opportunity we were able to get a decent rate last time as well because of What happened with with nine one one?

So we want to lock these things in and be wise and how we're doing this stuff and I'm really looking forward to it. This will be the the fourth cruise that we've done and folks if if you've looked at I Fact I'm gonna be talking about this.

I get Catholic answers Promotional material in the mail all the time and they're constantly in fact the most recent one I got a huge fold-out full-color super nice paper thing about Catholic answers and their need to come up with five million dollars a year to run their ministry.

Five million dollars and They went on their first cruise just recently and I can guarantee you it cost the folks went on that a whole lot more than it costs our folks and I'm not sure if that's how they're trying to raise the five million or just what but These are these are incredibly enjoyable experiences and Period of you could you know, if you want to make it a period of very intense Study you can do so because you have so much freedom to invest your time as you see fit and I tell you it's sitting out on the deck and Contemplating God's creation and considering God's truth.

Oh, yeah. Well some of us saw that. Some of us did get to stare up in the sky at the Aurora Borealis this last time is just one of us did. Yeah, well one of us didn't know where others of us were. Okay, in fact wasn't one of us asleep at that particular point in time.

I figured my friend would give you a call. Oh Man I need to find. I need to find a certain wave sound here. Somebody turn up. So I turn up my thing here this I don't know if you could be able to hear this.

I see.

Anyways.

Anyways, it is a wonderful time together. And so they need to get in touch with you ASAP. This is this is not something that is going to continue Indefinitely in the future. This is not the kind of thing where I'll put off a few weeks and Just don't do that.

So get on the website hit the the the cruise button. Get a hold of Mike. Let him know of your interest. If you've been going ads a year off I can wait. Don't do that at least get a hold of Mike and talk to him and let him Help you understand all the the ins and outs of this.

That's a very very very important. We need to know of your interest. We need to know. If you've been contemplating this just haven't gotten around to doing it.

So well also I would want to add also in that is that you know with your with your seven hundred fifty dollars. We choose to get inside cabin that includes all your meals. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah all your drink except for you know, if you would buy the alcohol, which I guess our Presbyterian friends would be interested.

But now we're stuck with just a Reformed Baptist cruise, that's good wonderful.

Yeah, we certainly would encourage you to do this. It's it's a way that you could get the most out of your money really to have your time Involved in Christian apologetics as well as on the cruise and have everything taken care of for you.

Oh, it would be it would be impossible to.

Aside from just the the the luxury of the of the cruise ship. It would be impossible to feed yourself the kind of food That you get on on that boat for that kind of money per day. I mean the food is just absolutely incredible.

So I'm sorry. Did we lose Mike? Oh, I think we I think we lost Mike there. Who was that? I've forgotten. I have no idea. You're taking up all my time here Mike. I think this interview is over with now.

No, seriously, it's it's a great deal get a hold of Mike and let him know of your interest. Very very important that we do this very very quickly. So thank you very much. Mr. O 'Fallon for calling. Another thing, um, maybe okay.

Just one last thing as long as it's not an insult about me. No, it's no.

Just to let folks also know that probably the day before we're trying to get things set up right now We are looking to try to have a debate for dr. White On the Friday before which would be the Friday the 5th of December mm-hmm, and we are looking at trying to bring an Islamic apologist down and Debate one of the major issues between Christianity and Islam.

Yep. That'd be the way to do it. We're gonna roll that into it and hopefully we can have you along with us.

Sounds like a plan. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you. God bless. Hope you enjoy the rest of the program today as we continue on with the dividing line. Make sure you hit the website hit that link on the on the cruise.

I have this man. You got to see this thing this tremendous promotional piece that's Catholic answers put out. Somebody's got some bucks. That's all I can say. Full color folds out. I don't know what size this thing is.

Well, it's a four. It's an eight and a half by eleven quad fold so you can you can figure out what that you know it's it's for eight and a half by elevens put together whatever that is and you know full color with with all sorts of photographs and whole nine yards and All to try to raise two million dollars for Catholic answers and I say two five million dollars and then today I get a second one.

This was just earlier this week I got this today. I get a second one. We haven't heard from you guys if you're waiting to hear from me, it's gonna be a long time. Let me tell you about it.

Okay.

Not sending anything in Carl. You don't have to worry about me. Not not gonna be doing that. Well anyways Last night I Well sometime this week. I forget exactly when it was Rich Pierce told me he we got a phone call from a fellow who had attended now.

This was initially what I was told but rich now says he can't remember this. So, you know, he and I are both getting, you know, very old and in fact, I get very old next week not well on this coming week, but 17th I I start my fifth decade.

I'm starting to catch up with Skyman and At least percentage wise I guess we always do that. But yes, the surgery affected riches riches memory and Anyways, what he initially told me was that This fellow was sending us a videotape from last Sunday evening's Presentation where Dave Hunt spoke at Harvest Fellowship a Calvary Chapel and Initially what I was told was that I the fellow said look he talked about James White.

I feel that it's only fair you hear what he's saying about you. And so we were sent this tape and so we had digitized it and while I was working out last night I listened to it and it did help a good deal.

To.

Work out last night. It really did. I got a great workout in because I'd jump off the bench go. Oh, I Can't believe it. So anyways, um Warren says this is Greg Laurie's church. I you know, that's possible.

Yeah, you know, they would have a TV ministry and stuff. That is that is quite possible. You're looking at the thing of a Bobby out there because you probably tape out there. Anyways Wherever it was we listened to yeah, I know they kept mentioning a Greg but there's more than one Greg and in those groups but anyways.

They I was listening to that. So I was ready to go and in fact I have 19 cuts already put together For the program today to listen to what mr Hunt is saying and respond to it and so I was pretty jazzed when I came into channel after I get down my workout came over and Then for some reason someone asked me what was your first debate?

Well, I mentioned it was against Jerry Matta ticks started talking a little bit about and I had not gone To Jerry Matta ticks website in quite some time the last contact I had with Jerry. Well, I think the last time we saw him was we've been in Long Island quite some time ago now.

And I've sort of heard, you know little things somebody else say hey Jerry Matta ticks was in town. Yada. Yada. Yada but we haven't had much contact the last thing I saw was a letter the Jerry Matta ticks sent to a reformed Baptist pastor of a small reformed Baptist Church in Vernonia, Oregon now Vernonia is the type of city that If you're driving through on an interstate at high speed at night.

You could probably miss it not only because most of the lights are turned out but because it at 75 miles an hour. You're past it so quickly. You wouldn't even notice it was there. It's a very like 2 ,000 people.

It's a very small little town out in the middle of nowhere in, Oregon. Okay, and so Jerry Matta ticks is coming into town. So he sends this letter to the pastor of this tiny church challenging him to debate the Immaculate Conception.

And.

It just so happened of course that reformed Baptist tend to know most other reformed Baptist and so The pastor of the church knew of me and knew of Phoenix reformed Baptist Church knew that I'm an elder there and so he contacted me and Said look, I you know, I I haven't studied these issues, but you know, he's coming to town.

He's doing this presentation. I'd like to be able to give a response. Would you be willing to come up and debate him? And I said I'd be glad to and so when the pastor writes back To Jerry and says well, I won't however a fellow reformed Baptist elder by the name of James White would be willing to fly up and And do this debate.

Amazingly enough. He never ever heard from Jerry again. Talk about an effective means of getting rid of folks. Just mentioned my name. That was it for some reason. Nothing no further correspondence arrived.

I can pretty much guarantee you that if the pastor had said sure be glad to We would have had a different situation. It takes place there now personally I find it Strange That someone who on their website and and you can you can look on their website.

There is a Where is this section down here do do do do do where to go? Ah. Here here under Jerry's picture, which is a older picture. It's about as old as some of my old pictures are. Under Jerry's picture says in all my contacts in the Roman Catholic world over the past 50 years I count Jerry as the most gifted best educated Scripture scholar in the church and quote the late William Mara Emeritus professor of philosophy Fordham University founder the Roman Forum and host where Catholics meet.

Now that's not when you put that on your own website, okay. What are you doing? Challenging pastors of little churches in tiny towns to debate the immaculate conception against you and Then turning down an opportunity to debate someone whom you've already debated on that subject who just so happen would know your arguments on that subject and in fact would have had the opportunity of Listening to your tapes and then going to the text of Scripture and finding out that when Jerry starts ripping off these scripture passages and saying The septuagint here is parallel with this over in Luke and but he's just just rapid-fire Polished presentation when you actually sit down with the text.

It doesn't say that. The parallels aren't there. He's got the wrong verbs. Why wouldn't he want to debate someone who can? Debate him on that level who has knowledge of the original languages has knowledge of church history.

In fact has debated him before and has debate experience. Well, I did find that to be a rather strange thing that someone who would on their own website Claim to be one of the greatest and most Gifted best educated scripture scholars in the entire Roman Catholic Church would be investing his time and debating Pastors of small churches in small towns, but then not debating people who of course could keep him honest.

So I found that strange, but what really got me going Was when I clicked around a little bit on the website here and I come across the March 2002 appeal letter this is a fundraising letter. But it's what it says and I'm just gonna read this to you.

I'm taking this right off of www .jerrymedetix jerry with a G Gery medetix org if you want to look at it yourself, it's linked right there. And by the way, it is medetix. Please pronounce it correctly.

I think I'm the only Protestant that does. Anyways, here's here's what it says. 22nd March 2002 dear Catholic friend. Well, at least just saying it only Catholic friends, of course. Everything sent to me says that too.

I have something thrilling to share with you last April by an amazing providence of God I was invited to Furman University a large Baptist University in Greenville, South Carolina to give an official school-sponsored lecture.

Let me stop right there. This actually happened with some help of some folks in the Greenville area. Who are regulars in our chat channel? We did some surfing around last night and this did indeed take place.

Why I haven't the foggiest idea why in the world a Baptist University would have Jerry medetix speak. I can't even begin to understand let alone do it without a response. It's one thing to let him come on campus and speak and do a debate.

Okay, I can understand that but just on his own without somebody to give a response. Anyways, I continue. Furman even gave academic credit to those who attended Greenville the buckle of the Bible Belt is also the home of another famous fundamentalist school Bob Jones University often in the news for its militant anti Catholicism.

The lecture I chose to give of course was how the Bible converted me to Catholicism. One Protestant ministers pilgrimage. The large amphitheater was filled to double its regulation capacity. With hundreds of students standing in the back sitting in the aisles on the floor and feet around my feet on the stage.

It was obvious to me as my talk progressed that these bright serious committed Fundamentalists had never heard the biblical case for Catholicism before. I stopped for a moment. Well, duh, of course. They've never heard Jerry's presentation before and to someone who has never heard a Roman Catholic apologist speak before that Indeed can be a very troubling thing.

No question about. I've said many many times that I go into most of my debates with two strikes against me. That is the people there have no idea that a Roman Catholic can even come up with a biblical defense now.

It's not a sound biblical defense. It's not a true biblical defense because it's not based upon solo scripture. It's not derived from the text. It's forced on the text. But hey, most of these folks have never heard this stuff before.

I can imagine the kind of impact it had. I continue reading. They sat riveted on to the chairs astounded to hear a scriptural defense of Catholic teaching as well as scriptural critiques. Of such Protestant errors as scripture alone and justification by faith alone as I conclude my talk.

Whoops. Where'd it go? Where did you go? Okay as I conclude my talk, I knew I could pull no punches. I knew that neither I nor any other Catholic apologist would ever get a chance quite like this again.

So I told them charitably but uncompromisingly that if they remain Protestants They could no longer claim with a clear conscience to be Bible-believing Christians since I had shown them sufficient evidence the Bible taught the Catholic faith not Protestantism.

I Told them that they want to be truly Bible-believing Christians. They need to become Catholics. I thanked them for the privilege of addressing them for their hospitality and attentiveness told them I love them and I would be praying for their conversions their response truly a work of God's supernatural grace.

Astounded me despite my challenging them to rethink their most fundamental convictions the entire audience of Protestants stood to its feet and gave me a loud long-standing Ovation. I was flabbergasted.

But that was nothing compared to what followed for though none of the students had to stay for the ensuing questions and answer period. Over half of them did only peeling away by ones and twos of the next several hours.

Now this this strikes me as true because I know Jerry. Jerry will go to the wee. Small hours the morning we debated on the papacy in 1993 he went out with the pastor of the Presbyterian Church. We were at for the second night and they were there.

Oh Goodness till I think three or four o 'clock in the morning. Jerry doesn't sleep much. I don't think so. This doesn't surprise me at all. I continue reading. Although I had begun speaking at 7 p .m.

And finished my talk proper at 9 the last group of students did not leave the question-answer period until 2 30 a .m. It was a powerful indicator of just how hungry people are for the truth. When God's grace has its way with them and how rare they find the opportunity to get clear convincing Biblically based answers to their questions about the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism.

Yeah, then why don't you have somebody else there to give the other side Jerry? Anyways, one of those students who stayed at the very end firing question after question. He was a freshman who was by his own admission a convinced anti-catholic.

His goal that night had been to win me back to biblical Christianity and he had prayed much that morning that by God's grace Eyes would be open to see the truth and to reject error warning. Be careful what you pray for you may get it.

Yeah, right. I'll let him finish the story. He posted the following words on the internet recently. So here's the quote from this student who identifies himself at Furman University. My name is Jonathan Arrington, and I had been a fundamental evangelical Southern Baptist all my life I was as anti Catholic as one could be before I heard Jerry Manitakes at Furman last April to be blunt I thought all Catholics were going to hell and had no idea what Christianity really was.

However, while listening to Jerry from 7 p .m. Until 2 30 a .m When we were forced out by school policy not because of Jerry's unwillingness to listen To more of my accusations and pedantic questions I realized that Jerry Manitakes was one Catholic who knew the Bible was a Christian and had posed Questions to me that I could not answer from my solo scriptura sola fide background.

He offered both a friend of mine and me all of his available tapes for free and gave us his email address for any further questions we might have since that day. I've announced my decision to join the church have entered our CIA and I now desire to become a priest while Listening to Jerry for seven and a half hours.

I heard nothing but biblical and historical proofs. I praise the thrice Holy Trinity for working through Jerry Manitakes to lead me to the Catholic Church and I now desire to serve Christ's true church in the holy priesthood and That's what we read on the website.

Last night, I have some comments about that, but we need to take a brief break and be right back right after this Steve Camp singing Pilgrims progress and before that. Another one of his great Reformation themes has a new CD out.

I haven't heard it yet, but he promised to send it to me we did an interview on WMCA with Steve on Christian music this past Thursday Chris Arnz and myself we interviewed Steve Camp. It was a lot of fun.

So hoping to see him in January and all sorts of new stuff. Anyways, we go back to the subject. I got a little fired up. I This really touches the whole reason that I do debates. And I normally don't you know, I like to leave Leave it up to the audience to determine the winner of a debate, but I'm gonna do something I've never done.

I have crushed Jerry Manitakes and debates before. It wasn't even close when we did the papacy Debate in 1993 during the papal visit. It wasn't even close. He gave it his best but when the man stands in front of an entire audience.

Holding the first volume of Juergens Quote book of early fathers turned to the index. Saying these are the early fathers that agreed with me that that is self-destruction. Okay I mean it was not even close the during the break in that debate the man went up into the choir loft and is writing notes.

For the second half of the debate, that's how that's that's how bad it was. Okay. The the audience during the Marian debates. When we got going back and forth on the subject that he kept saying well traditions.

Jerry show us these things. Where in the early church did they say the things you're saying? Well, they're there give us one. Well, mr. White. Mr. Why? You can't expect them all to have addressed this Jerry.

I'll take one. The audience exploded. The audience exploded. It's just absolutely I Mean when Jerry has to keep coming into debates over and over again saying oh, I'm so unprepared I've been so busy I've been writing my notes as I've been driving through traffic and all I've had to eat today is a coke while I was driving Through traffic and we've been moving and all my best books are packed up in boxes and Mr. White is such a wonderful debater.

I feel like David Goliath when you have to start your debate. With that kind of rhetoric. Well the last time we do it I beforehand I even send him a fax and I said Jerry the last at least three debates you we have done.

You start off talking about how unprepared you are and how it's David and Goliath and all the rest of stuff. May I make a suggestion sir be prepared this time. That's what I told him. I was very straightforward.

I'm sick of it. I'm tired of this this this pedantic misuse of the of the of the audience. Just be ready and I'll give him credit he was and that made it a good debate. But many he has he has admitted many times to having lost the vast majority of the debates.

We have done and so it angers me. It angers me first of all that Furman University would have this man. Come on campus and not provide a meaningful response. That's the first thing it angers me.

Okay.

Secondly that he would. You know hey if someone hands him the opportunity what do you expect this man to do. This man is a purveyor of false teachings. What is what is a purveyor of false teachings gonna do when you open the door and say here attack our kids?

Okay, so the the primary thing that I'm upset about is that somebody? Went allowed this man to stand up there and do this stuff. That's that's the first thing. Secondly we've contacted the student and Have said are you aware of the have you heard the other side?

It's you know I don't I don't care if he was raised His whole life in the Southern Baptist Church you can go to a Southern Baptist Church your entire life and never hear a response To things on solo scriptura and solo fide and things like that.

I'm it shouldn't be that way. Hopefully the students that I teach in seminary that wouldn't be that way when they preach in their churches. But in a lot of Southern Baptist churches and a lot of Baptist churches and a lot of churches a lot of Protestant churches.

You're never gonna hear a discussion of solo scriptura, and you may hear solo fide mentioned but you're not gonna have a response given that be on the level of What matic's is throwing out there? I've debated him on justification.

I've debated him on solo scriptura three times. I had Patrick Madrid tell me on the phone that it was the first time he'd ever heard a Catholic lose a debate was on the second solo scriptura debate that we did up in Oman 1992 so I Have contacted the students that I'd like to send you he talked about free tapes.

I'm just letting rich know. We're sending free tapes, too. I'd like him to watch the Marian debates. I'd like him to watch the solo scriptura debates. I'd like them to hear the papacy debates from 1993.

Find out that there is an answer because it's obvious to me he's never heard that that that answer at all and here he's getting ready to leave and Become a priest or a monk and he's never heard the other side he thinks That because he had a prejudice against Catholicism that that somehow made him knowledgeable.

It did not and it does not in fact most those who are the most prejudiced are the least Knowledgeable in why they reject Roman Catholicism, but I have also contacted mr. Matic's. I Sent him an email last night and I was very straightforward as you can tell him where they're passionate about this.

And I was very straightforward in what I said to Jerry first of all I brought up the issue of his ducking out on the challenge that he made to the pastor in Vernonia, Oregon when he found out that I would be willing to come up there and face him and Then I brought up this issue and I said, all right, let's let's reprise.

Let's reprise this at at Furman if you're if what you say is true Then this would only increase your opportunity of even more people coming to hear what you have to say Let's reprise it except this time.

It's mano a mano one-on-one and I challenged him to debate four issues two of them. I would defend two of them. He would defend I would defend sola scriptura. I would defend justification. He would defend the papacy and he would defend one of the Marian dogmas.

Specifically, maybe the bodily assumption immaculate conception. I think I mentioned immaculate conception. I Think that would be very fair and we have some folks some fine folks in channel right now who live in the Greenville area and They're certainly willing to to assist in setting things up even the student himself who responded to me this morning.