June 11, 2009

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon

Lots of stuff to get to today 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number if you want to participate in Today's program yesterday.

I posted a video on the YouTube channel the 371st

I think we ought to have a pizza party or something for number 400 when we get around to it but the 371st video a response to Someone on YouTube in some prophecy channel or something that he took a clip a brief clip from the

Bible answer man broadcast and posted it in regards to one of the questions that had been asked of me by both the folks

I was debating at that time and It had to do with the rape of children. It was one of those emotional

You know things try to get your emotions going So you don't actually think very clearly in regards to God and his sovereignty over the universe

I'm not gonna repeat what I said on that It's about a 25 minute long video. You can watch that for yourself

But I did want to address some further issues that sort of flow out from that And in the process respond to some questions that have been asked in other venues as well try to Use my time as best

I can in providing a response to some of these questions

And so we read in the Westminster confession of faith God from all eternity Did by the most wise and Holy Council of his own free will of his own will freely and unchangeably

Ordain whatsoever comes to pass that is the fundamental assertion of the nature of God in regards

To the reformed faith, of course, but it says yet So as thereby neither is

God the author of sin this is where the issue is joined by most people because they don't want to consider or Really allow the issues of secondary causes to come into into the picture if in God's Decretive will evil would exist from their perspective that makes

God the author of it They don't seem to understand that God decrees to bring about those conditions whereby evil will certainly come into existence

However, he is not the one who commits the acts of evil He is the one that creates the conditions in which that evil will come into existence

But he judges Individuals based upon their desiring to do these things his desire is bringing about his greater glory

Their desire, of course is their own personal promotion fulfillment of lusts, whatever

You know, there's a myriad of human desires that are fulfilled in sin But when people go yeah

But that doesn't matter because if if God ordained that it would happen then the the person doing it is irrelevant

Well, no, it's not irrelevant Especially when we emphasize as I did in the video given the biblical data that in the one action of Joseph's brothers selling him to slavery in Assyria coming against Israel in the crucifixion of Jesus And there are so many others that we could then expand that out to in that one action

You have God's just and holy desires being fulfilled and then you have man's sinful desires being fulfilled

And God does not judge us based upon a presumed knowledge of his decrees the only way we know

God's decrees is either by looking at the past because that's always what happens or By those few times when

God gives us the content of those decrees as they impact the future hence prophecy and things like that But we do not have general access to the decrees of God we have his

Prescriptive will there's been revealed to us in scripture and we are held accountable for our obedience to that prescriptive

Will we are not judged on the basis of a knowledge of God's decrees? And that's important in recognizing that we don't know who the elect are all those other things that flow from them as Someone just to point out well in channel

Deuteronomy 29 29 the secret things belong unto the Lord our God But those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children

Forever that we may do all the words of this law very very important things to keep in mind but when we say that God is not the author of sin one correspondent has asked as He ordained the existence of evil in the sin

How can he not be considered on some level the creator of it at least indirectly?

Well in the sense that scripture itself Has God saying in Isaiah?

I have Created light and darkness. I have created Shalom and ra

Then in that overarching sense yes, but the Westminster Confession of Faith says author and An author that flows from that author's heart it reflects what that author is sin

Reflects the creatures rebellion against God and so when we talk about author of sin we are talking about a

First level source not not secondary sources or bring secondary sources into existence that will certainly do

X Y or Z Satan and demons or mankind or whatever else it might be in the sense that God's a creator of Everything than any theistic system unless you have a completely ignorant

God who has no knowledge of anything at all Would in some way shape or form have something to do with the existence of evil no matter what theistic system

You have you have to deal with that in some some fashion The reformed person is saying well in God's divine decree evil is to exist yes

But that does not make him the author thereof. He is not the one committing it He's not taking innocent human beings putting a gun to their head say do this or die

That is that is what is being protected and was being said another question. I understand the nature of second causes

But as he is the first cause then how then is he not the author well again because secondary causes

Do this on the basis of their own desire for rebellion God's? Purpose in all things is always holy and just and using those secondary causes he can do so perfectly because they likewise are condemned sinners

Any extension of grace to them any time that they have in existence after really after the fall of Adam given

You know the the federal representation of mankind in Adam Is an extension of God's grace and so I think recognizing the difference between first and secondary causes and the what?

Author means is relevant there Since God is able to stop the evil and not only chooses not to in many cases

But even more he decrees the evil enabling it to happen I'm not sure I'd go there

How is God not considered the very least an accessory before and during the fact and therefore culpable along with man who pulls the trigger?

Well again, I think that God actually does Restrain the vast amount of man's evil as we discussed last time

I think that mankind in hell is the perfect example of What happens when that restraint is removed from man

And he is allowed to sin as he as he sees fit without any restraint so when it says

Decrease the evil enabling it to happen the only way I can understand that is that he brought creation into existence if he didn't bring creation into existence then

Evil could not be enabled to happen So I'm really not certain of exactly what what that means

But how is God not considered the very least an accessory before and during the fact? He's the judge. That's why and He determines the categories in which judgment is going to take place and he has said that his intentions and his purposes are always just holy and righteous and they are and we see that in the examples given to us in Scripture and We see that he restrains evil remember this story in Genesis 20 where he withholds the king from committing evil

We we know that the Holy Spirit is involved in doing this and using this the the law to curb men's evil in many ways

But even more than that The the important thing is to is to keep in mind is that the arena of judgment that God has

Created he is the creator of this universe. He has the right to determine the categories in which things happen

It's not a matter of our laws or anything like that being applied to God That he has decreed that the arena in which judgments to happen is that regarding our

Desires what we do and why we do it While mankind it's dangerous very dangerous to give to mankind the the right to and shall we say

Read hearts and minds. That's what these hate crimes laws are all about We can't see into the hearts and minds of men

God can see in the hearts and minds of men Perfectly and in the judgment, he will demonstrate this will be part of what the judgment is all about as a demonstration that in every action

He was righteous and just in what he did and mankind was was not The Westminster Confession goes on to say nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures

This of course is where the Westminster Confession is Asserting that God is not taking innocent people who desire to do good who want to turn to God or do not want to do

Evil and he forces them to do evil This is in no way shape or form the case even in fact regeneration itself

When when people like Norm Geisler and others who will be listening to later in the program today Complain and in some senses mock the biblical representation of the

Regeneration of the heart of man raising man to life Freeing him from the bondage to sin.

They say well, you know, God's God's saving you against your will He's forcing you to do something against your will.

We actually have been enslaved to sin it is a freeing of man from those bonds a

Resurrection to spiritual life that is actually being discussed there. That is not a Even that is not doing violence to the will of the creature by changing his nature

The will decides based upon the choices presented to it by the nature to change that nature of course is to then is what the

Holy Spirit of God does in regeneration, but in Reaction to that line from the

Westminster Confession nor is violence off the will of the creatures But if the individual is persuaded by irresistible means

IE God's decree man's own intellection Limitations parental training habits and the power of sin.

How is this much different? Well, of course that whole list of things are all completely different for one another And I don't understand individuals persuaded by irresistible means

I I don't know what that means and None of those would in any way

Violate what the Westminster Confession says nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures This is not a situation where that that that it is that some innocent person

Is there such an innocent person existed is being forced to do something against his or her desire at that point?

In fact, I think the only argument you might make about Violence being offered all the creatures is how many times

God restrains evil And I guess you might make an argument at that point Continues on saying man is acting with the consent of his will but how could he act otherwise as All the conditions were to lead him to act in accordance with what

God had already determined. That's not the point The point is that he's acting in accordance with his will that's what his that's what this heart desires

The other possibility is well, there just has to be libertarianism. There can be no divine decree. God cannot know the future

Really it's it there can be no theism at this point and God has no right to determine that the realm of judgment is going to be the realm of judgment.

That is in fact within Temporal constraints within time and man is to be judged on the basis of his response to That revelation

God has made of his law within man's heart and externally in in the

Word of God That's simply God's right to do that. That's how he's set it up I don't know if there's anything more to be offered than that In answer that question

It says how is this ultimately different from a fatalistic or mechanistic view of reality in man's will because God is personal

He is accomplishing his personal Will and that is his decree in glorifying himself and that the creatures that are involved in so doing act upon their desires

And they do so under his decree and he glorifies himself in saving a particular people unto

His own glory and for his own purposes and the Westminster Confession goes on to say

Nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away but in order but rather established

And the questioner says in other words man's free will is limited or contingent upon its God's decree Well, everything is is contingent upon God's decree

It is God's decree that man will function in this way and therefore Satan cannot for example take away

Those faculties and turn him into a mere robot. He certainly as a fallen creature and as a rebel is

Limited in comparison to Adam at that point But still it is it is

God's decree that keeps man from Ceasing to be human and ceasing to have the imago

Dei the image of God Then the Westminster says although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions

Yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it his future or is that which would come to pass upon such conditions, which?

Interestingly enough would be a repudiation of Molin ism In other words

God has chosen what will happen based purely upon reason sufficient to himself and not based upon anything independent or outside of himself ie man's will and Yes, that would be the case man's will is a part of that decree and Again, man is only judged within the temporal realm not in the realm of having knowledge of God's God's existence

Just a couple other questions in regards to this perspective one question was asked

God certainly has the right to create something and then to destroy something Romans 9 20th 21, however when it comes to the issues of blame and punishment

It appears to human reason unfair to blame or punish someone for doing something if that person is quote unable and quote to do otherwise

What am I not understanding here? Well again, God has not taken away man's ability

To act in a righteous fashion. That is a part of his fall in Adam This is primarily an argument against federalism and against God's dealing with man in a federal fashion and that is dealing with man as the fallen children of Adam and then positively dealing with Men as they are united with Christ and Christ and becomes their heads with his righteousness is their righteousness

Etc, etc Again, the issue is blame and punishment is based upon the desires of the heart

None no one has has desired to not do these things and so that's where the judgment comes in not based upon Well, you know since they've fallen in Adam and they've become enemies of God and they're no longer capable of doing spiritual good

Because they have spiritually died Therefore they can't be blamed anymore. And that's like saying the person who has you know, drunk himself into a stupor can no longer be blamed

For what he does when he's in a drunken stupor well, our law says no, this is the realm of in which a person is to be judged and if you've put yourself in that position and You then lose your faculties or control of your faculties.

You're driving a car and somebody we're still going to blame you for that Despite the pre -existing condition of your drunkenness

One more question is you can tell we've got got one call on hold and lots of other things to deal with today

So I'm talking really really fast, but you can always slow the recording down if you want to Second question, how does our will even work?

Understanding that it is voluntary spontaneous contingent yet not indifferent since it is not free to determine itself

From an extra volitional vantage point and since God's decreed of will cannot be thwarted

Ahab was persuaded even after God's Revelation Judas also was worn in a similar way and yet was possessed by Satan and betrayed

Jesus. Anyway I'm not fully following the question

There's a far better discussion of the functioning of the will of man than I can give you

In Jonathan Edwards, he went about as fully into that as I think you can if you go that that direction

But again, the the point is the will functions on the basis of the desires presented to it by the nature of man and As such that then becomes the realm of which judgment takes place acting upon our desires and what what our heart

Wants to do. I'm not exactly certain. I mean certainly in regards to Judas I Don't know what it is about Judas a lot of people just really get very uptight about but there's a lot of folks that are

Pro Judas They want to make sure Judas gets a fair shake, you know

And I guess it is part of the humanism of our day that that people would be so Focused upon quote -unquote individual rights

I'm not talking about this particular email but so focused upon an individual rights that you can take someone like Judas who is a sinner

Who is rightly under the wrath of God and be more concerned about his quote -unquote being treated justly

Than the role that by by divine decree. He is to take Inbring about the greatest act of redemption in the crucifixion of the son of God It is amazing to me how many people just just oh, you know, we just got to be

I don't like this stuff about son of perdition, you know, and as I do and you're just like wow

You this is I really think this is primarily a modern

Western thing I don't think the people of the ancient world who had a much more holistic view of man and a much less individualistic view of man

Would have ever even understood what those What those complaints are about to be perfectly honest with I think they would have gone.

What are you folks talking about? And finally, the question is asked how will

Christians be judged differently than unbelievers yet still responsible every thought word indeed. Well Christians are are judged regarding their sins in Christ That that is that is a past tense reality and so that the judgment of the

Christian is in regards to our utilization of the the gifts and the blessings that God has given to us and It is a very different judgment than the unbeliever who is standing there responsible for his sins we have had a sin bearer who has borne our sins and that is not the same situation as As the unbelievers, so there's a major difference between those eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Wow twenty minutes There I hope that was helpful to add to What was in the video as as well?

Just just threw it in there real quick. Let's get to Larry Larry is in Paddy but it's also in Kentucky, so And that the

French didn't sue the folks in Kentucky for stealing the name or anything like that not that I'm aware of What's up, well

Just listen to some of the things you've been you've been talking about Just trying to understand passages like Philippians 2 13

Where it talks about you know, how God who's a working us to both will and to work for his good pleasure

The word will there I mean my understanding of it's correct. It's similar to desire or to want

So God is actually working in us to desire the things that we're desiring so Where do the

I know that you know The reform position is the evil desires come from our own heart because of our sinful nature

But how does that passage fit and a passage like Proverbs? I think 21 one where talks about the king's heart

Basically was in the hands of God and he turns you know, whichever way he wishes I'm paraphrasing.

That's a fairly straightforward quote. Yeah I'm not sure that I would go as far as you did in in Vert 2 13 says for God is the one working in you and that's plural and who mean both to will and to work according to his good pleasures, so We need to see the possibility first of all, this is this is the second half of that statement

Therefore my beloved as you have always obeyed so now not only is in my presence but much more in my absence

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling now. This is first addressed

Plurally to the whole church and then we make application individually And the reason that the working out of the salvation is done in fear and trembling is

Because it is God who is at work within you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

And so Keeping that in mind. That's why the fear and trembling is there is recognizing. It's God at work within us clearly then the

Spirit of God is involved in changing all of us and Yes, conforming our will till the to the will of God the work the

Spirit of God takes the Word of God Applies it to our soul so that what we desire is what

God desires. That's a sanctification process. It doesn't happen just overnight I mean, there's

I think there's certain absolutely necessary elements of it in the sense that The regenerate believer will always cling to Christ even if he doesn't have full knowledge of everything.

There is no about Christ who does But there is a I think a basic level of Work that goes on the person's heart but then over time it is the application of the

Word of God the means of grace the Proclamation of the Word of God from in the teaching in the in the church and so on so forth that that together with the activity of Working within us causing us to do good works those things that are pleasing in God's sight is what it's what

God is doing so It seems to me that that it's I don't think that Paul's saying that somehow there's some

You know God is has taken over your will and and is therefore doing this out of the other thing

I would seem more consistent with Pauline theology that what he's referring to here is the work of the

Spirit of God In conforming our will to his will through the uses of the of the scriptures

To use the word and our actions become conformed likewise as a result with what his purposes for us would be so the other text you mentioned

Proverbs 21 a number of texts and Proverbs emphasize the same thing you have in Psalm 33 and That is that God is the one whose purposes will it be established even when we have our own intentions

We have our own plans How many times our plans don't work out and I'll admit one of my greatest character flaws is that I don't handle that well when

I have plans the day I Don't like when those plans get messed up.

That's immaturity on my part, but it's part of being a human being But one thing's for certain it happens a lot

I don't have control over those things and so when it talks about the the King's heart being in the hands of the

Lord That's that's a basic statement that especially the king is the representative of the people and the one who determines the actions of that nation

He is not independent of God even the even the most powerful of men Is is under God's control and he is going to accomplish

God's purposes That's why the king of Assyria is brought down to punish Israel, but what does he do?

He then punishes the king of Assyria because of the attitude that was his he he did not recognize

God's sovereignty in his life and he he was doing what he was doing for all the wrong reasons and so God knowing the heart

You know Remember the heart it was the heart of the king likewise in Genesis 20 that God kept from sinning against him as well

So I think that turning of the heart is just simply in the accomplishment of God's Decretive purposes, especially in that context in regards to nations

Okay I'm not running to too many

King James only believers, but Basically, I've run into something new here recently and I've never heard this before and looked around the internet and try to find out what you know, if there was something out there to this, but basically, the statement was made that it was the

King James first they said that the Translators had the originals which obviously is not true, but they had the originals and after they had after they translated the

King James That they that King James himself had the originals burned

The NIV and the NASB in a sermon and basically the comment right after that was so go smoke that in your pipe

Well somebody I'm not gonna say any more about that. That's that's this way too obvious, but That's fascinating, of course the

King James translators would have found that to be fascinating And I think the King James translators had they had the originals would have protected them with their lives no matter what the

King said but The the that is is got to be one of the most absurd statements

I've ever heard You heard this live or you heard this on tape? It was a recording it was a recording

I would love to hear that recording myself Is it on the internet? Yes, it is. If you can send me the

URL, I would like to play that because that would be fascinating I I've heard a lot of crazy stuff.

I've heard people Basically saying that that that the

King James version of Bible 1611 King James or the Bible was written in heaven before time began and that Adams spoke

English in the King James. I've heard some incredible incredible claims But I'd never heard anyone claim that the

King James translators actually had the originals and then King James burned them That's that's a new one.

I'd like to hear that. I would like to add that to my collection of Outlandish assertions that people have made in in defense of King James only ism

Okay, so if you could drop a drop a note in the contact thing The contact page on the website with that URL.

I would love to see that Okay. All right. Thanks a lot. Thanks for calling eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

The King James translators had the originals. Oh, man, we missed it by only 400 years

Okay, well there you go folks it it's it's always lots of fun Hey, we're gonna we're gonna listen to some

Norm Geisler in the second half hour after we take our break And we'll be right back right after this

Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources

Pastors you will appreciate the phrase matching tool Which will allow you to find all of the verses containing phrases similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon

Preparation seminary professors and students will be enriched by the way Bible works 8 shows the most common words in the pericope

Book or chapter plus provides a wider range of formatting options and faster access to copying preferences scholars

Your research just got easier with the army external resources manager a handy tool to collect organize and display resource files from your computer

As well as the internet. Dr. James White says Bible works is the best Bible software available I have used

Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program This is the program that runs 24 7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop when

I engage In debates it is simply the number one research tool for anyone doing serious exegesis of the text for over 15 years

Bible works has assisted all users in their study of the original languages and That enables you to do one thing focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth

Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate

The Trinity is a basic teaching of the

Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the

Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching

Leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the

Holy Spirit. The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity Dr.

John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended

You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is

Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the

Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you And Welcome back to the dividing line.

They got a lot of stuff to get to that guts I've decided it's time to start working through Norm Geisler's why

I'm not a five -point Calvinist sermon He seems to repeating it a lot We do get a lot of people asking some questions about I there's nothing in there that is not addressed in the

Potter's freedom Of course, but it's been what? 1998 98 99

Somewhere around there. I forget when it was we did the chosen but free series

Which so many people found to be so Helpful in coming to understand.

I like I said, I think in the last 10 years The single book that has created more

Calvinist than any others was chosen but free I Don't think that's what

Norm had in mind, but it's okay. We you know, what can we say? Does doc like giving me a migraine someone in channel says

I've given them a migraine that's you know, that's sad I don't want to give people a migraine. Was I talking too fast?

Is that what it's about but before we get to Norm Geisler? We we want to get to To Tim Staples just briefly

Just a reminder just cover a wide variety of things today. We've covered God's decree and evil and judgment now, let's listen to Let's listen to Tim Staples.

He's going to What one of the most classic periods in a debate ever done over the years

Was The debate with father Peter Stravinsky's and the discussion of purgatory in 1st

Corinthians chapter 3 which if you've not watched it is on our YouTube site and is truly fascinating and First Corinthians chapter 3 in context has absolutely positively nothing to do with purgatory

It has to do with leaders in a church being judged On the basis of what they have done and why they have done it and It's really straightforward in what it says it's talking about the fact that there are going to be there's going to be a day of judgment and Those who've worked in building the church

If anyone builds on the foundation, which is Jesus Christ with gold silver precious stones wood hay and straw so these are

Works that are are done with either proper motivations or improper motivations day of judgment will make it manifest

We can't tell in this life For the day will disclose it because it will be revealed by fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one is done

The fire does not purify The the fire is not judgmental. The fire is not meant to be removing

Temporal punishment for sins. There's nothing about any of that in here it is revealing what kinds of works church leaders have done in building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ and If the work that anyone is built on the foundation survives the test, he'll receive a reward

What is that reward? Well, it's reward for faithful service done for Jesus Christ But if anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss

All those things are go are gone though. He himself we say but only is through fire This is not a judgment in regards to salvation is a judgment in regards to motivations and why people did things

That's what the text is about. It's clear. It's obvious. It doesn't fit with purgatory

It doesn't fit in any way shape or form as we saw in my aunts asking questions of Father Stravinskis on this very subject

Because he was saying well, you know, there's just testing as well, but everybody's tested and They're the problem is in purgatory

No, I people that are suffering this this this fire are the people who have temporal punishments

Who are these other people who received who have no loss? They suffer no loss, but they receive reward who in purgatory receives rewards and other people don't receive rewards

It just doesn't fit it is it is one of the classical examples of taking a text that in its original context makes perfect sense and Cramming it into a later theological development that took many many many centuries to finally reach its current position

Really, I would say 1 ,400 years before it reaches the modern

Roman Catholic concept of purgatory and So with that in mind, let's listen to Tim Staples Massacre 1st

Corinthians chapter 3 and do exactly what I was just describing Cramming things cramming false teachings into the

Bible with Tim Staples on Catholic answers One of my friends has told me that He told me

This are heaven hell and above the money for him where purgatory isn't found anywhere in the

Bible Okay, we may not be able to get to the second way, but Benny could you turn your radio down?

We're getting some echo in the background Okay. All right. Thank you, sir. You got it, Tim Well, here's what you want to show them and there are numerous places where purgatory is eluditated

Eluded to I like I like eluditated personally I think eluditated is a great word that could be used so many times in in the

English language I vote we added him we put I mean think about it. What words have we added the English language

Twitter? I'm tweeting that's now a verb. I Think eluditated is much better than tweeting personally

So I think we should add it in in the Bible, but here's my favorite and it's st St. Augustine's favorite 1st

Corinthians 3 verses 11 through 15 Benny. You want to show him this it says no other foundation

Can anyone lay except that which is laid Jesus Christ? But if anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood

Hey stubble each man's work will become manifest for the day of judgment

We'll disclose it because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test

What sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation?

Survives he will receive a reward, but if any man's now will he stop and will he explain? how this has any relevance to purgatory because the only people in purgatory are the people are there because They have temporal punishments of sins upon their souls.

He needs to explain How you can have gold and yet still be in purgatory?

He needs to explain the connection between temporal punishments and gold silver precious stones wood. Hey and strong He needs to explain what the reward someone purgatory receives is if it's eternal life

Everybody gets that because everyone's gonna get a purgatory. These are the things that must be explained You would think that someone who's a professional apologist who makes his living doing this would have taken the time to listen for example to what happened to Peter Stravinsky's and Therefore in making his own presentations would make his presentations with more clarity more force.

I do that I Have many times talked about the fact that my presentation of the deity of Christ Especially in regards to as being identified as Yahweh in the scriptures has been greatly improved strengthened and enhanced by my taking time to listen to the critics of that position and Taking their criticisms into account now

I'm not saying that Every person has to know everything that someone could say against their position because obviously that's not the case

I Know one would be able to do all of that But when the very people you yourself have debated in the past and who defeated you in those debates clearly

Have made these type of comments. I would think it would be a good idea You know to consider these things how many hours do we spend playing these people on the dividing line and respond to them?

How many hours do they spend playing us and respond to us? Yeah, that's a pretty big difference isn't work is burned

He will suffer loss though. He himself will be saved but only through fire notice

This is after death Benny after we die. We go to judgment and according to this text our imperfect works

Will be burnt up now if we have imperfect works if we have imperfections on our soul

They must be burned up not just jump. He went from imperfect works

To imperfections on our soul. Where's the connection there? What what's can you please explain to us how you get?

Temporal punishments of sins and you should be able to hear to differentiate between eternal punishment temporal punishments so you've got temporal punishments on your soul and That somehow is to be connected with these

Christian leaders building upon the foundation with better motivations or less good motivations

The leap is is long and unsubstantiated But it's just that if not if they're not burned up, of course, we immediately receive our reward

But notice they clearly have to those who have these imperfections. Wait a minute.

What reward? these are people in purgatory and They had works of gold silver and precious stones and They were tested by this fire if this is the fire of purgation cleansing

Why are there good works being tested in purgatory? There has to be a testing before you get into purgatory to send you to purgatory

The whole reason you go to purgatory is you have been tested and have been shown To have temporal punishments more temporal punishments on your soul

Then you have good meritorious works the judgment already took place before that purgatory is to cleanse things not to make the judgment

But that's not what Paul's talking about. Is it? No, it is and that's what's being represented by the wood hay and stubble

Imperfections things that are less than perfect They are burned up and notice it's not just the works that go through the fire

According to the scriptures the person has to go through this purging fire as well

Not a literal fire Benny as in, you know, they're gonna burn them with matches But the fire in the

New Testament represents purging it's that which purifies Benny this is a great definition of purgatory right here in first Corinthians 3 and We have seen that Tim Staples has just destroyed the text

He has just read all of that and that you want to see ice of Jesus there It was because any careful person to go.

Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait the fire purges gold

What's the gold? There's no answer for that from the Roman Catholic perspective because their theology isn't being derived from this text

It's being forced into it. That's the difference between biblical Christianity and false religion

Any religion come along come up with the theology and then cram it into certain parts of Scripture It is when you allow

Scripture as a whole tota scriptura and sola scriptura to speak that you see what the truth is

Then he was it was it just a so it doesn't have to be a shameless plug just a plug You have recorded a talk series on this very topic.

I sure have it's gonna be coming out real soon In fact, it's called Last call

I like that last call brilliant and I think Patrick Coffin had something to do with the naming of that buddy, right?

Thanks for making that a non shameless pluck there you go, but last call I do deal with purgatory

I also have been and that's coming out soon. I deal with death judgment heaven and hell eschatology

But I have another CD set here Benny called God's perfect plan Purgatory and indulgences explained where I go into great detail

But wouldn't you love to hear Tim Staples and I debate purgatory? Tim Tim Let's do it man, let's get together.

We've done it twice before and I Think the first two were went real well, so I think it would be awesome

Wouldn't you love to see a cross -examination period based upon the text of the

New Testament? Me and Tim Staples does first Corinthians chapter 3 teach purgatory as he claims that it does.

Let's do it I think people should start calling up Catholic answers and saying we want to hear a debate on Yeah, we'll see if that happens probably fairly unlikely anyway

Just want to throw it out there. I Heard from Tim Staples. I think I mentioned in the air heard from Tim Staples.

I wrote to him back in January I heard from him as I recall in March or April And I immediately wrote back and I haven't heard anything since then so I got to go back and find that and send him an

Email saying Tim we need to do purgatory. I'll Tim will do it on Catholic answers live I'd be happy to come over to California We'll do it on Catholic answers live as long as you allow for equal amount of time

And you'll actually follow the rules of debate this time That'd be a nice thing because last time he didn't didn't really do that very well

And he we didn't have a moderator that would control him and stuff like that, which is a shame You know he took time during cross -examination continue making points he only asked four or five questions during cross -examination during which

I asked 41 questions of him and Stuff like that and but that was nine years ago, so maybe you know

Maybe Tim would be willing to do this now We'd be able to really get into the text the

Greek text of 1st Corinthians chapter 3 because I'd really like to hear What he has to say?

It was at a Calvary Chapel somewhere that Norm Geisler presented a sermon and it is

One hour and 26 seconds long as I have put it together here. I download all the videos and then

Create a wave files out of those and then put them all together took me a little while But I have in front of me

Norman Geisler is why I'm not a five -point Calvinist sermon now the one way of doing this that which would probably be more effective would be if I take time to just pull out little clips and Do it

The one thing that we lose though, and we do that is you lose the

Shall we call the ambience the context the color the texture? the the attitude that is expressed toward Calvinism, and it needs to be understood that not just in Calvary chapels, but in many of those and In many other churches across the

United States and outside of the United States, Australia the United Kingdom Calvinism is viewed as a terrible threat and This is not going to be a real shock to a large number of you, but There's this interesting element that we need to recognize and that is that almost never

Do those who are the most vocal opponents of Calvinism represented? appropriately

Now you might say well of course we know about Dave Hunt and we know about the folks in the

Southern Baps convention that Love to attack Calvinism and stuff like that and and yeah

We know they they they don't and and how many people over the years have I taken time to?

Read their books play them on the air respond to them and demonstrate that It's it's it's real easy to beat up a straw man

But why aren't you attacking the reality? Why aren't you it's not like the reality isn't right out there

There's plenty of us, and we tend to talk a lot and print books and do things like that, but for some odd strange reason

We just don't get accurately represented, but then you have others who would say oh, yeah But then you've got people like Norm Geisler and Norm Geisler is a great scholar, so he'd never do that and And so I think we'll just play the whole thing now we can't do that today obviously since we only have about eight minutes left in the program, but we can get started and We don't have to do it for two weeks running or something like that.

We can do 10 -15 minutes at a time and Respond to what is said, but I think it is important to hear what people are being told so that when

You are in a conversation with somebody and they go well wait a minute you Are you a

Calvinist and they and they they move away from you and And all of a sudden they don't they don't want to have anything to do with you you might want to know why and the why is because of the misrepresentation that is so often made of those of us who hold to reform theology and so We're just gonna listen to To what goes on here now

Norm Geisler is a is An it's a nice guy, and he's got a great sense of humor, and he tells great jokes

But when it comes to this subject ah Well, we have certainly documented problems there.

Let's get started. Thank you very much pastor It's a delight to be with you many of you were at the seminar last night in this morning

It's good to see you again and also to meet the new friends I I thank pastor

Fidel for that wonderful Introduction they never tell you what you really want to know about a speaker

They're always sitting there wondering. How old is that guy you know and all the details, so I'll put your minds at rest

I Will be 69 in one month So you don't have to guess add up all the figures.

You know I'm giving and try to figure it out 50 was traumatic for me. I didn't mind 65 but 50 was really traumatic the country was about 200 at the time and One day it hit me.

I'm one -fourth as old as the United States I was on my way to Australia, and as you know you're crossing international dateline, and I had my 50th birthday twice

And so I'm I'm depressed. I've got a very encouraging wife will be married 46 years tomorrow

Thank you and She said honey.

Don't be discouraged. You're gonna live to be a hundred and I said, how do you know she said you look?

Half -dead already So that encouraged him and I've been pressing on to my second half century here

We have six children three boys and three girls. It's called Planned Parenthood It's very difficult to make them come out even as you may know especially if you have seven or five

We decided to name all of the children from the Bible ours for the girls and D is for the boys

Ruth Rhoda and Rachel we're doing fine we had Rebecca in case we had another girl and then

David Daniel and And The third boy came along we said what's another good name for a boy from the

Bible that begins with D David Daniel Demetrius Diatrophies Demas devil we thought that several times

So we called him Paul Just Kind of dropped the line on the

D Eeny meeny miny and Henry didn't want no mole We had so many children.

I was afraid to come home and say what's new dear Guys you have a sense of humor

My topic this evening Is a topic that I am very much interested in and I understand that many of you are too

And it's titled five Reasons why

I am NOT a five -point Calvinist Five reasons why

I am NOT a five -point Calvinist a

Man died went to heaven and he saw two lines one line said predestined and the other line said free choice

So being a good five -point Calvinist he got in the predestined line and he worked his way up to the front and the angel in charge said

Why are you in this line? He said well, I chose to be here He said was the wrong line the free choice line is over there

So he moved over to the other line and he worked his way to the front of the line and the angel at the desk said

What are you doing in this line? He said somebody made me come here Predestination and Freewill It's probably one of the oldest problems in the history of theology

God Predestined us do we freely choose it? What's the relationship between the two?

But I just like to say for anyone who's listening from the churches in New Jersey where I'll be speaking on God's sovereignty at the conference

Starting Well, it's not next week a week after on Monday I promise not to begin my talk with any jokes or any personal stories at all mainly

Maybe one but nothing like that So we'll get right into the subject when when we talk debate broke out right after the

Reformation when Martin Luther and John Calvin and other theologians took a stand against many of the excesses they perceived in the

Roman Catholic Church and stood on great fundamental principles like the

Bible alone and Grace alone and faith alone and Christ alone for the glory of God alone that word alone being the crucial difference between Roman Catholics and Protestants inside of the

Protestant Faith there were differences of opinion on this very issue and I want to say tonight that with all due respect

This is an intramural debate people on both sides are good and godly people people on both sides believe all of the

Fundamentals of the faith the virgin birth and the deity of Christ and the substitute

Tutionary atonement the bodily resurrection the second coming people on both sides of this issue believe all of those alone's

Salvation by grace alone and faith alone through Christ alone based on the

Bible alone But it is an important topic because it does bear on Several very important doctrines that the

Bible teaches and so I would like to share with you Why I don't come out on the side of what's called the five point

Calvinist a five -point Calvinism comes from the Dutch Context and in the

Dutch context as you know tulip is a very important flower And so we'll use the acrostic of a tulip and the five points are

T total depravity you Unconditional election

L limited atonement I Irresistible grace and P perseverance of the

Saints so that little acrostic Tulip will be the five points of our message

And I'll explain each point and then I'll look at some scripture and try to tell you why on the basis of scripture

That I do not accept or believe that that particular point as understood by the extreme

Calvinist is correct, and I'm glad that it'll be based upon the Bible and that will be the question will

Norm Geisler stick with the Bible or will it be a philosophical presentation someone in channel? Just mentioned that they had looked it up, and this was

Fort Lauderdale Calvary Chapel in 2001's this is right after the release of chosen but free so But the presentation is on the

YouTube. It's on YouTube. It's on the internet and Evidently still making this presentation. It is very much parallel to chosen, but free

So we'll be listening to what norm has to say picking up at that point Next time when we continue that review

I believe today's Thursday So next Tuesday now one more announcement next

Thursday a week from today. We'll be back the morning time I have a class that night Then I head out toward,

New Jersey in New York look forward to see all you folks there But we'll see you Tuesday normal time here on the dividing line.

God bless We need

The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 460 to or write us at PO box 3 7 1 0 6

Phoenix Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org.

That's a o m i n Dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks