June 11, 2009

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Divine Decree, Evil, and Secondary Causes

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. Lots of stuff to get to today. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four. One is the phone number if you want to participate in Today's program yesterday.

I posted a video on the YouTube channel the 371st. I think we ought to have a pizza party or something for number 400 when we get around to it. But the 371st video a response to Someone on YouTube in some prophecy channel or something.

That he took a clip a brief clip from the Bible answer man broadcast and posted it in regards to one of the questions that had been asked of me by both the folks I was debating at that time and It had to do with the rape of children.

It was one of those emotional You know things try to get your emotions going. So you don't actually think very clearly in regards to God and his sovereignty over the universe. I'm not gonna repeat what I said on that.

It's about a 25 minute long video you can watch that for yourself. But I did want to address some further issues that sort of flow out from that. And in the process respond to some questions that have been asked in other venues as well.

Try to Use my time as best I can in providing a Response to some of these questions. And so we read in the Westminster confession of faith God from all eternity Did by the most wise and Holy Council of his own free will of his own will freely and unchangeably?

Ordain whatsoever comes to pass that is the fundamental assertion of the nature of God in regards To the Reformed faith of course, but it says yet. So as thereby neither is God the author of sin this is where the issue is joined by most people because they don't want to consider or Really allow the issues of secondary causes to come into into the picture.

If in God's Decretive will evil would exist from their perspective that makes God the author of it. They don't seem to understand that God decrees to bring about those conditions whereby evil will certainly come into existence.

However, he is not the one who commits the acts of evil. He is the one that creates the conditions in which that evil will come into existence. But he judges individuals based upon their desiring to do these things his desire is bringing about his greater glory.

Their desire, of course is their own personal promotion fulfillment of lusts, whatever. You know, there's a myriad of human desires that are fulfilled in sin. But when people go yeah. But that doesn't matter because if if God ordained that it would happen then the the person doing it is irrelevant.

Well, no, it's not irrelevant. Especially when we emphasize as I did in the video given the biblical data. That in the one action of Joseph's brothers selling him to slavery in Assyria coming against Israel in the crucifixion of Jesus.

And there are so many others that we could then expand that out to in that one action. You have God's just and holy desires being fulfilled and then you have man's sinful desires being fulfilled and God does not judge us based upon a Presumed knowledge of his decrees.

The only way we know God's decrees is either by looking at the past because that's always what happens or By those few times when God gives us the content of those decrees as they impact the future. Hence prophecy and things like that, but we do not have general access to the decrees of God we have his Prescriptive will that has been revealed to us in Scripture and we are held accountable for our obedience to that prescriptive will.

We are not judged on the basis of a knowledge of God's decrees and that's important in recognizing that We don't know who the elect are all those other things that flow from that as Someone just to point out well in channel Deuteronomy 29 29 the secret things belong unto the Lord our God.

But those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children. Forever that we may do all the words of this law very very important things to keep In mind, but when we say that God is not the author of sin.

One correspondent has asked as he ordained the existence of evil in the sin. How can he not be considered on some level the creator of it at least indirectly? Well in the sense that Scripture itself Has God saying in Isaiah?

I have Created light and darkness. I have created Shalom and ra. Then in that overarching sense yes, but the Westminster Confession of Faith says author and An author that flows from that author's heart it reflects what that author is sin Reflects the creatures rebellion against God and so when we talk about author of sin we are talking about a First level source not not secondary sources or bring secondary sources into existence that will certainly do X Y or Z Satan and demons or mankind or whatever else it might be in the sense that God's a creator of Everything than any theistic system unless you have a completely ignorant God who has no knowledge of anything at all.

Would in some way shape or form have something to do with the existence of evil no matter what theistic system You have you have to deal with that in some some fashion. The reformed person is saying well in God's divine decree evil is to exist yes.

But that does not make him the author thereof. He is not the one committing it. He's not taking innocent human beings putting a gun to their head say do this or die. That is that is what is being protected and was being said another question.

I understand the nature of second causes. But as he is the first cause then how then is he not the author well again because secondary causes. Do this on the basis of their own desire for rebellion God's?

Purpose in all things is always holy and just and using those secondary causes he can do so perfectly because they likewise are condemned sinners. Any extension of grace to them any time that they have in existence after really after the fall of Adam given.

You know the the federal representation of mankind in Adam Is an extension of God's grace and so I think recognizing the difference between first and secondary causes and the what? Author means is relevant there.

Since God is able to stop the evil and not only chooses not to in many cases. But even more he decrees the evil enabling it to happen. I'm not sure I'd go there. How is God not considered the very least an accessory before and during the fact and therefore culpable along with man who pulls the trigger?

Well again, I think that God actually does Restrain the vast amount of man's evil as we discussed last time I think that mankind in hell is the perfect example of What happens when that restraint is removed from man.

And he is allowed to sin as he as he sees fit without any restraint. So when it says Decrease the evil enabling it to happen the only way I can understand that is that he brought creation into existence.

If he didn't bring creation into existence then Evil could not be enabled to happen. So I'm really not certain of exactly what what that means. But how is God not considered the very least an accessory before and during the fact?

He's the judge. That's why and he determines the categories in which judgment is going to take place and he has said that his intentions and his purposes are always just holy and righteous and they are and we see that in the examples given to us in Scripture and We see that he restrains evil remember this story in Genesis 20 where he withholds the king from committing evil.

We we know that the Holy Spirit is involved in doing this and using this the the law to curb men's evil in many ways. But even more than that the the important thing is to is to keep in mind is that the arena of judgment that God has Created he is the creator of this universe.

He has the right to determine the categories in which things happen. It's not a matter of our laws or anything like that being applied to God. That he has decreed that the arena in which judgments to happen is that regarding our Desires what we do and why we do it.

While mankind it's dangerous very dangerous to give to mankind the the right to and shall we say? Read hearts and minds. That's what these hate crimes laws are all about. We can't see into the hearts and minds of men.

God can see in the hearts and minds of men. Perfectly and in the judgment, he will demonstrate this will be part of what the judgment is all about as a demonstration that in every action He was righteous and just in what he did and mankind was was not.

The Westminster Confession goes on to say nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures. This of course is where the Westminster Confession is Asserting that God is not taking innocent people who desire to do good who want to turn to God or do not want to do Evil and he forces them to do evil.

This is in no way shape or form the case even in fact regeneration itself. When when people like Norm Geisler and others who will be listening to later in the program today Complain and in some senses mock the biblical representation of the Regeneration of the heart of man raising man to life Freeing him from the bondage to sin.

They say well, you know God's God's saving you against your will He's forcing you to do something against your will. We actually have been enslaved to sin it is a freeing of man from those bonds a Resurrection to spiritual life that is actually being discussed there.

That is not a Even that is not doing violence to the will of the creature by changing his nature. The will decides based upon the choices presented to it by the nature to change that nature of course is to then is what the Holy Spirit of God does in regeneration, but in Reaction to that line from the Westminster Confession nor is violence off the will of the creatures.

But if the individual is persuaded by irresistible means Ie God's decree man's own intellection Limitations parental training habits and the power of sin. How is this much different? Well, of course that whole list of things are all completely different for one another.

And I don't understand individuals persuaded by irresistible means I I don't know what that means.

And.

None of those would in any way Violate what the Westminster Confession says nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures. This is not a situation where that that that it is that some innocent person Is there such an innocent person existed is being forced to do something against his or her desire at that point?

In fact, I think the only argument you might make about Violence being offered all the creatures is how many times God restrains evil. And I guess you might make an argument at that point Continues on saying man is acting With the consent of his will but how could he act otherwise as all the conditions were to lead him to act in accordance? With what God had already determined.

That's not the point. The point is that he's acting in accordance with his will that's what his that's what this heart desires. The other possibility is well, there just has to be libertarianism. There can be no divine decree.

God cannot know the future. Really it's there can be no theism at this point and God has no right to determine that the realm of judgment is going to be the realm of judgment. That is in fact within Temporal constraints within time and man is to be judged on the basis of his response to That revelation God has made of his law within man's heart and externally in in the Word of God.

That's simply God's right to do that. That's how he's set it up. I don't know if there's anything more to be offered than that. In answer that question It says how is this ultimately different from a fatalistic or mechanistic view of reality in man's will because God is personal he is accomplishing his personal Will and that is his decree in glorifying himself and that the creatures that are involved in so doing act upon their desires.

And they do so under his decree and he glorifies himself in saving a particular people unto His own glory and for his own purposes and the Westminster Confession goes on to say Nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but in order but rather established.

And the questioner says in other words man's free will is limited or contingent upon its God's decree. Well, everything is is contingent upon God's decree. It is God's decree that man will function in this way and therefore Satan cannot for example take away Those faculties and turn him into a mere robot.

He certainly as a fallen creature and as a rebel is Limited in comparison to Adam at that point. But still it is it is God's decree that keeps man.

From.

Ceasing to be human and ceasing to have the imago Dei the image of God. Then the Westminster says although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions. Yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it his future or is that which would come to pass upon such conditions which?

Interestingly enough would be a repudiation of molanism. In other words God has chosen what will happen based purely upon reason sufficient to himself and not based upon anything independent or outside of himself ie man's will.

And Yes, that would be the case. Man's will is a part of that decree and Again, man is only judged within the temporal realm not in the realm of having knowledge of God's God's existence. Just a couple other questions in regards to this perspective.

One question was asked. God certainly has the right to create something and then to destroy something Romans 9 20th 21. However when it comes to the issues of blame and punishment. It appears to human reason unfair to blame or punish with someone for doing something if that person is quote Unable and quote to do otherwise what am I not understanding here?

Well again? God has not taken away man's ability To act in a righteous fashion that is a part of his fallen Adam. This is primarily an argument against federalism and against God's dealing with man in a federal fashion and that is dealing with man as the fallen children of of Adam and then positively dealing with Men as they are united with Christ and Christ and becomes their heads with his righteousness is their righteousness.

Etc etc. Again the issue is blame and punishment is based upon the desires of the heart. None no one has has desired to not do these things and so that's where the judgment comes in not based upon. Well, you know since they've fallen in Adam.

And they've become enemies of God and they're no longer capable of doing spiritual good because they have spiritually died. Therefore they can't be blamed anymore, and that's like saying the person who has you know drunk himself into a stupor can no longer be blamed.

For what he does when he's in a drunken stupor well our law says no this is the realm of in which a person is to be judged, and if you've put yourself in that position and You then lose your faculties or control of your faculties.

You're driving a car and somebody. We're still going to blame you for that despite the pre-existing condition of your drunkenness. One more question is you can tell we've got got one call on hold and lots of other things to deal with today.

So I'm talking really really fast, but you can always slow the recording down if you want to. Second question how does our will even work? Understanding that it is voluntary spontaneous contingent yet.

So not indifferent since it is not free to determine itself from an extra volitional vantage point and since God's decreed of will cannot be thwarted Ahab was persuaded even after God's Revelation. Judas also was worn in a similar way and yet was possessed by Satan and betrayed Jesus anyway.

I'm not fully following the question. There's a far better discussion of the functioning of the will of man than I can give you. In Jonathan Edwards he went about as fully into that as I think you can if you go that that direction.

But again, the the point is the will functions on the basis of the desires presented to it by the nature of man and. As such that then becomes the realm of which judgment takes place acting upon our desires and what what our heart Wants to do.

I'm not exactly certain. I mean certainly in regards to Judas.

I.

Don't know what it is about Judas a lot of people just really get very uptight about but there's a lot of folks that are Pro Judas. They want to make sure Judas gets a fair shake, you know. And I guess it is part of the humanism of our day that that people would be so.

Focused upon quote-unquote individual rights. I'm not talking about this particular email but so focused upon an individual rights that you can take someone like Judas who is a sinner Who is rightly under the wrath of God and be more concerned about his quote-unquote being treated justly than the role that by by divine decree he is to take.

Inbring about the greatest act of redemption in the crucifixion of the Son of God. It is amazing to me how many people just just oh, you know, we just got to be. I don't like this stuff about son of perdition, you know, and as I do and you're just like wow You this is.

I really think this is primarily a modern Western thing. I don't think the people of the ancient world who had a much more holistic view of man and a much less individualistic view of man. Would have ever even understood what those.

What those complaints are about to be perfectly honest with I think they would have gone. What are you folks talking about? And finally, the question is asked how will Christians be judged differently than unbelievers yet still responsible every thought word indeed.

Well Christians are are judged regarding their sins in Christ. That that is that is a past tense reality and so that the judgment of the Christian is in regards to.

Our.

Utilization of the the gifts and the blessings that God has given to us and It is a very different judgment than the unbeliever who is standing there responsible for his sins. We have had a sin bearer who has borne our sins and that is not the same situation as As the unbelievers, so there's a major difference between those eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Wow 20 minutes. There I hope that was helpful to add to What was in the video as as well? Just just threw it in there real quick. Let's get to Larry. Larry is in Paddy but it's also in Kentucky, so. And that the French didn't sue the folks in Kentucky for stealing the name or anything like that.

What's up. That's a fairly straightforward quote, you know, I'm not sure that I would go as far as you did in in 213 says for God is the one working in you and that's plural. And who mean both to will and to work according to his good pleasures, so We need to see the possibility first of all, this is this is the second half of that statement.

Therefore my beloved as you have always obeyed me. So now not only is in my presence, but much more in my absence work out your own salvation with fear and trembling now this is first addressed Plurally to the whole church and then we make application individually.

And the reason that the working out of the salvation is done in fear and trembling is because it is God who is at work within you both to will and to work for his good pleasure and so Keeping that in mind.

That's why the fear and trembling is there is recognizing. It's God at work within us clearly then the Spirit of God is involved in changing all of us and Yes, conforming our will till the to the will of God the work the Spirit of God takes the Word of God Applies it to our soul so that what we desire is what God desires.

That's a sanctification process. It doesn't happen just overnight. I mean there's I think there's certain absolutely necessary elements of it in the sense that The regenerate believer will always cling to Christ even if he doesn't have Full knowledge of everything there is to know about Christ who does?

But there's a I think a basic level of Work that goes on the person's heart but then over time it is the application of the Word of God the means of grace the Proclamation of the Word of God from in the teaching in the in the church and so on and so forth.

That that together with the activity of Working within us causing us to do good works those things that are pleasing in God's sight is what it's what God is doing so It seems to me that that it's I don't think that Paul's saying that somehow there's some You know God is has taken over your will and and is therefore doing this out of the other thing I would seem more consistent with Pauline theology that what he's referring to here is the work of the Spirit of God In conforming our will to his will through the use of the of the scriptures.

So to use the word and our actions become conformed likewise as a result with what his purposes for us would be so the other text you mentioned Proverbs 21 a number of texts and Proverbs emphasize the same thing you have in Psalm 33 and That is that God is the one whose purposes will be established even when we have our own intentions.

We have our own plans. How many times our plans don't work out and I'll admit one of my greatest character flaws is that I don't handle that well when I have plans the day.

I.

Don't like when those plans get messed up. That's immaturity on my part, but it's part of being a human being but one things are certain it happens a lot. I don't have control over those things and so when it talks about the the King's heart being in the hands of the Lord.

That's that's a basic statement that especially the King is the representative of the people and the one who determines the actions of that nation. He is not independent of God even the even the most powerful of men Is is under God's control and he is going to accomplish God's purposes.

That's why the king of Assyria is brought down to punish Israel, but what does he do? He then punishes the king of Assyria because of the attitude that was his he he did not Recognize God's sovereignty in his life, and he he was doing what he was doing for all the wrong reasons.

And so God knowing the heart You know Remember the heart it was the heart of the king likewise in Genesis 20 that God kept from sinning against him as well. So I think that turning of the heart is just simply in the accomplishment of God's Decretive purposes especially in that context in regards to nations, okay?

Well somebody I'm not gonna say any more about that, that's that's this way too obvious, but That's fascinating of course the King James translators would have Found that to be fascinating, and I think the King James translators had they had the originals would have protected them with their lives no matter what the King said, but The the that is is got to be one of the most absurd statements.

I've ever heard You heard this live or you heard this on tape. As a recording I would love to hear that recording myself is it on the internet. If you can send me the URL I would like to play that because that would be fascinating.

I I've heard a lot of crazy stuff. I've heard people Basically saying that that that the King James version of Bible 1611 King James or the Bible was written in heaven before time began and that Adam spoke English and the King James.

I've heard some incredible incredible claims. But I'd never heard anyone claim that the King James translators actually had the originals and then King James burned them. That's that's a new one. I'd like to hear that I would like to add that to my collection of Outlandish assertions that people have made in in defense of King James only ism.

Okay, so if you could drop a drop a note in the contact thing. The contact page on the website with that URL. I would love to see that. Okay. All right. Thanks a lot. Thanks for calling eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

The King James translators had the originals. Oh, man, we missed it by only 400 years. Okay. Well, there you go folks. It's it's it's always lots of fun. Hey, we're gonna we're gonna listen to some Norm Geisler in the second half hour after we take our break and We'll be right back right after this.

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Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 3

And welcome back to the dividing line. They got a lot of stuff to get today. I've got I've decided it's time to start working through Norm Geisler's why I'm not a five-point Calvinist sermon. He seems to be repeating it a lot.

We do get a lot of people asking some questions about I. There's nothing in there that is not addressed in the Potter's freedom. Of course, but it's been what? 1998 -99. Somewhere around there. I forget when it was we did the chosen but free series Which so many people found to be so Helpful in coming to understand.

I like I said, I think in the last 10 years The single book that has created more Calvinist than any others was chosen but free. That's just I don't think that's what Norm had in mind, but it's okay.

We.

Does doc like giving me a migraine. Someone in channel says I've given them a migraine. That's you know, that's sad. I don't want to give people a migraine. Was I talking too fast? Is that what it's about?

But before we get to Norm Geisler we we want to get to To Tim Staples just briefly. Just a reminder just cover a wide variety of things today we've covered God's decree and evil and judgment. Now, let's listen to.

Let's listen to Tim Staples. He's going to. What one of the most classic periods in a debate ever done over the years. Was the debate with father Peter Stravinskas and The discussion of purgatory in 1st Corinthians chapter 3 which if you've not watched it is on our YouTube site and is truly fascinating.

And First Corinthians chapter 3 in context has absolutely positively nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with leaders in a church being judged on the basis of what they have done and why they have done it and It's really straightforward in what it says it's talking about the fact that there are going to be there's going to be a Day of Judgment and Those who've worked in building the church.

If anyone builds on the foundation, which is Jesus Christ with gold silver precious stones wood hay and straw. So these are works that are are done with either proper motivations or improper motivations.

Day of Judgment will make it manifest. We can't tell in this life. For the day will disclose it because it will be revealed by fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one is done. The fire does not purify.

The fire is not judgmental. The fire is not meant to be removing. Temporal punishment for sins. There's nothing about any of that in here. It is revealing what kinds of works church leaders have done in building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ and If the work that anyone is built on the foundation survives the test, he'll receive a reward.

What is that reward? Well, it's reward for faithful service done for Jesus Christ. But if anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. All those things are go are gone though. He himself we say but only is through fire.

This is not a judgment in regards to salvation is a judgment in regards to motivations and why people did things. That's what the text is about. It's clear. It's obvious. It doesn't fit with purgatory.

It doesn't fit in any way shape or form as we saw in my aunts asking questions of Father Stravinsky's on this very subject. Because he was saying well, you know, there's just testing as well, but everybody's tested and There the problem is in purgatory.

No, I people that are suffering this this this fire are the people who have temporal punishments. Who are these other people who we see who have no loss? They suffer no loss, but they receive reward. Who in purgatory receives rewards and other people don't receive rewards.

It just doesn't fit it is it is one of the classical examples of taking a text that in its original context makes perfect sense and Cramming it into a later theological development that took many many many centuries to finally reach its current position.

Really I would say 1 ,400 years. Before it reaches the modern Roman Catholic concept of purgatory and. So with that in mind, let's listen to Tim Staples Massacre 1st Corinthians chapter 3 and do exactly what I was just describing cramming things cramming false teachings into the Bible with Tim Staples on Catholic answers.

One of my friends had told me that It's not found in the Bible. He told me the only places that do this are heaven hell and the bosom of Abraham. Whereas purgatory isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

Okay, we may not be able to get to the second way, but Benny could you turn your radio down? We're getting some echo in the background. Okay. All right. Thank you, sir. You got a Tim. Well, here's what you want to show them and there are numerous places where purgatory is eluditated.

Eluded to. I like. I like eluditated personally. I think eluditated is a great word that could be used so many times in in the English language. I vote we added him. We put. I mean think about it. What words have we added the English language Twitter?

I'm tweeting that's now a verb. I Think eluditated is much better than tweeting personally.

So I think we should add it in in the Bible, but here's my favorite and it's st St. Augustine's favorite. 1st Corinthians 3 verses 11 through 15. Benny. You want to show him this. It says no other foundation Can anyone lay except that which is laid Jesus Christ?

But if anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood. Hey stubble each man's work will become manifest for the day of judgment. We'll disclose it because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test.

What sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation?

Survives he will receive a reward, but if any man's now will he stop and will he explain? How this has any relevance to purgatory because the only people in purgatory are the people there because They have temporal punishments of sins upon their souls.

He needs to explain How you can have gold and yet still be in purgatory? He needs to explain the connection between temporal punishments and gold silver precious stones wood. Hey and strong. He needs to explain what the reward someone purgatory receives is if it's eternal life.