Engaging The Danger of Hyper-Preterism

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00:00

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

00:08

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy? Or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

00:15

Delusional's okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

00:21

So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

00:27

Yes! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

00:38

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:45

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

00:53

Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pasta.

01:00

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:22

What's up guys? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

01:30

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ApologiaStudios .com That's where you guys can go to get that huge treasury of episodes.

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Some of the most amazing scholars, scientists, theologians. Did you say huge?

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Huge treasury. Maybe. I'm having another allergy attack today.

02:03

I've been good all week and then all of a sudden it hits me. Arizona allergies are the worst. Go to ApologiaStudios .com

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We're grateful for all of you guys that have been with us for a very, very long time. I'm Jeff. That is

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Luke the Bear over there. We have an exciting show prepared for you guys all today. Thank you guys for watching live and sharing the content, liking and doing all the buttons.

03:30

Let's see here. Are you sure those are allergies? James says he's watching live. Are you sure those are allergies? Maybe you should show love for your neighbor,

03:37

Luke. You should leave during the next hymn. Oh, very good. Yes. I'm absolutely positive it's my allergies.

03:44

I have the worst allergies in the world. I keep thinking like every year, maybe it'll get better. Maybe my body will adjust to it and then it just gets worse and worse.

03:53

You said it's all the weed in your neighborhood. Yes, it's all the weed in my neighborhood. South Phoenix, y 'all. That's not even a gang song.

04:01

That's like totally hang loose. Yes, it's intense.

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There are these crazy weeds all over my area. South Mountain right now is just filled with these weird weeds with these little round balls, yellow balls all over them.

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They're not even like flowers. They're everywhere. People have been talking about the fact that it's this species that doesn't belong here and it's killing wildlife and it's this extreme allergen.

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Out in front of my house is a field of them. Just a field of them. I'm doing my best.

04:38

In today's show, we're going to talk about hyperpreterism. Some of you guys are like, okay, I'll check out now.

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Never heard of that before. You need to know about this because it's important to have a consistent eschatology.

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It's important to have a biblical eschatology first and foremost. The issues are all kind of related.

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Let me just put it to you this way. How do you as a Christian handle the fact that Jesus did teach and the apostles did teach that there was going to be a return in judgment upon that generation.

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There is no way to finagle our way out of it. It's just what the text says.

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This generation will not pass away until all these things take place. The near demonstrative in the

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Olivet Discourse, the passage of the Great Tribulation. I'm going to read a bunch of these texts today.

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First century time text. We're not talking about the resurrection, final judgment of Christ, the second coming.

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We're talking about a coming in judgment upon the covenant breakers of the first century.

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There's just no way out of it. We shouldn't want a way out of it because actually it makes Jesus look pretty glorious and the apostles look pretty amazing that they were predicting a soon to come judgment upon that generation and it happened.

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What do you do though when you run into people that take those true statements and then drive them off the cliff and turn it into yeah, that means now there's no final resurrection.

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Maybe we can adopt some Gnostic tendencies and say we're just going to have an escape into the spiritual which is the higher and the better and there's no real actual final redemption for the physical creation or the physical body.

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A lot of times, I'll just say this as straight and as honest as I can. Very passionate about this issue personally because every single person

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I've ever seen go into hyperpreterism and I mean this from the heart. Every person that I've known personally that's gone into hyperpreterism has ended up denying essentials of the faith like the

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Trinity, going into universalism that's always very popular, denying that Jesus still has a physical body.

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It's some scary stuff and one popular full preterist today is

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Sean McCraney. He's an apostate and he adopted full preterism and I don't know if you remember

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I told you I said you watch. I said he's going to start denying the Trinity. He's probably going to become a universalist.

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He's going to start denying the inerrancy of the scriptures in many ways and sure enough you just watch the dominoes drop and that's exactly what took place.

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So I'm not a prophet or the son of a prophet but I can see which way the wind is blowing and when you adopt this heretical perspective you destroy the narrative of the

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Bible the hope we have for the future and you just do a lot of damage. So it's very, very important and you'll notice though, so we have

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Andrew Sandlin. He's coming on to join us to talk about hyperpreterism. We're going to spend about 10 minutes right now talking to the boys to my left.

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These are members of Apologia Church. This is Dusty Marshall and Andrew Songkrant. You know these guys if you've kept up with us because we've had

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Dusty on with us. He is a very talented do you want to say hip -hop artist? Yeah. Hip -hop artist.

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Yeah. Not rapper? You can go either way. So he's a very talented hip -hop artist.

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If you don't know it, he did the song for Babies Are Still Murdered here.

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We took it as the end of Babies Are Still Murdered here and it's American Holocaust.

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If you haven't heard it, I absolutely love that song. Very, very moving. American Holocaust. Check it out on YouTube.

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That's Dusty Marshall and you know this guy right here because you see him on Cultish. That's Apologia Studios production.

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Cultish doing a lot of damage, creating a lot of waves. Very, very good show. He and Jerry sorry,

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Jeremiah sorry, Jeremiah do that show on a regular basis. If you guys haven't seen that, make sure you guys do.

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We've got some of the filmed versions here on Apologia Studios. We've also got their channel their pages.

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You guys go check it out over there. Alright, so these guys are doing a show called Reform Dads and Dusty, I'll let you come on in and tell us all about it.

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Yeah, Reform Dads it's a show that we're doing on biblical manhood. Essentially, we saw a culture that is looking to emasculate men that is very much trying to tear down the family and Andrew and I wanting to grow in our biblical knowledge of manhood started this show where we're talking about things like emasculating men, finding financial peace, struggling with porn addiction and how to kill that sin off.

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We're just learning and as we're learning, we're doing a show. We have a book study and a

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Facebook group that we're also doing. Right on. Andrew, why are you involved in this? Yeah, pretty much to echo off what

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Dusty's saying is the same thing. I really want to learn myself how to be a better father. I struggled myself personally not having a dad growing up.

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When Dusty came to me with this idea, I was like, this is a great idea for me to learn to do things.

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What I really love about it is actually we get to talk with people from Apology of Church every week.

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We have them come over and we do a special topic and I think that's really cool because people get to see that the body that is surrounded and how we've learned and grown from our leadership at Apology of Church like Pastor Luke, Pastor Jeff, Pastor James, Pastor Zach, everybody.

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It's just really cool. I like it. There's a lot of stuff happening at Apology of Church if you think about it. I can't even keep up with it all.

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You step back and look at just really the blessings and the grace God's given us as a church and so many just gifted and talented people.

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You've got theologians, you've got cultists, you've got provoked, of course you've got Apology and all the stuff we're doing here.

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Then you have all these other ministries these guys are doing, Reformed Dads. You've got your ministry, Irregular for Christ.

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It's a very good ministry. Just tell everyone about that quickly. I'd like to point everyone in that direction. Irregular for Christ means we're a family ministry.

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We travel to different recovery groups, sharing testimony and doing music and preaching. We come from a recovery background but also weekly we're going as a family to the abortion mills locally and preaching the gospel.

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My daughter's testimony is one of doctors wanted us to abort her because of her health issues and disabilities that we found out about before birth.

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So we share her story about choosing life, having a daughter born with disabilities and try to encourage people to choose life as well.

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Awesome ministries. Plus we have Pastor James doing like 10 dividing lines a day.

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I can't even keep up with those let alone all the other shows. Did you see today's dividing line? I wondered why he was talking right now because usually he's recording at the same time.

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If you guys haven't got a chance to see today's dividing line go to Alpha Omega Ministries on YouTube. Check out today's dividing line.

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It was something special. He went through the story of Joseph and his brothers and his father. Just a lot of insight in terms of just saying think about this element of the story.

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He said something. I'll just throw it out because I think it's just fascinating. He talked about the fact that we often never think about the fact that Joseph's brothers when they throw him in the pit, sell him into slavery, dip his cloak and he called it a coogee in blood.

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He talked about the fact that he's like what was the family dynamic like when the father finally discovered that they actually had been lying to him all those years.

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So all that time where he was grieving and weeping and they were comforting probably their father and then all of a sudden he finds out later on that no, you guys did this and they were lying the whole time.

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What were the conversations between Joseph's brothers and dad? Because the Bible doesn't tell you every detail but like what was that conversation like?

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I wonder if they got a spanking. That's a spankable offense even if you're an adult. That's a spankable offense in my book.

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In my book. You get a spanking no matter what age you are for that one. So anyway, go check out that today's episode of dividing line.

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Hey, I got a clip here I'm going to play for you guys. Here's a little clip from Reform Dads. By the way, where can people go to get more? For Reform Dads, it's on my

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Dusty Marshall Facebook page. We do the show there or on my Dusty Marshall YouTube page.

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We're running the show through those channels. So facebook .com slash demarshall535 or Dusty Marshall on YouTube.

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Alright. Here's a little clip right here from Reform Dads. If our fathers are our models for God and our fathers bailed, what does that tell us about God?

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Well, it was never God to begin with. Right. It was just a bad father.

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It's a bad father who didn't follow God's rules. So with Reform Dads, we want to put out content where people can actually have a

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Biblical man -centered point of reference to always point them back to Christ in order to lead their families correctly.

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Very good. I love this concept and the whole idea just talking about being men, godly men, the men that God's called us to be.

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You have a great point. In our culture, being a man is vilified. We're in a nation full of wusses and non -men.

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Malachoy. I was talking to somebody yesterday. Maybe it was my son, Stellar. He was like, when do you think someone's going to finally stand up and start doing something about all this?

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I was like, well, I think people are and people will. I said, but we're just a different culture now.

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I said, we have generations behind us of training of men to not be men, and people not to know the truth or care about the truth.

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Everyone knows I'm optimistic about the future. I know what the Bible says about the kingdom of Christ and the future, but it doesn't mean that our culture is going to survive this.

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I don't have a lot of confidence myself that we're living in a nation of men who care enough about the truth to lay their lives down for others and to actually take stands against injustices that need to happen.

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I know we're supposed to only do 10 minutes here, but I think it's important. It's an element that we just experienced recently when we were over in Scotland and we learned the whole history of the

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Covenanters. These men and women were beasts. We suck.

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They were dying for things that were theological claims. All they had to say was, sure, the king's king over the church too.

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Then they survive. They're being killed, drowned, maimed, broken, starved to death because they're just saying, no,

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Jesus is the king and you're not going to be king over the church. No. They did whatever it took.

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They went and did services out in the fields. Preached in masks. One preacher preached in a mask so nobody knew who he was.

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Thankfully, he never got caught. These were theological beasts and these were men, real men.

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When you go to Scotland today, the people who have their inheritance even readily told us we've got to start fighting.

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This is our inheritance. This is the deposit we were given. They told us we have so much wealth given to us, we've got to fight.

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Yes, you do. Be men. Rise up. Rise up. One of my favorite quotes that we learned from our friend

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Zach Lautenschlager on the Thanksgiving episode, it would have been one of the...

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This guy probably was a Covenanter. I just lost his name. It was one of the early founding fathers.

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The quote was basically, he said, I'm willing to lay face down in the mud so that generations after me can walk across my back.

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I love it. Sorry. Forget that. That's a

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Mac problem. See, we need that. I'm a recovering wuss. I like the word that you used, but the only reason why

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I'm recovering is because I'm washed by the blood of Jesus and I have my identity in him. Our nation's failing right now in that sense because they've abandoned who

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God is. We need to know who God is, even in order to actually have an actual correct understanding of what a man is to begin with.

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Nice. We should retitle the name of the show to be Being a Recovering Wuss.

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Yeah, it's a good thing. Remember 90 Pound Wuss? Yes, I do. That was before your time.

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90 Pound Wuss. Dustin, you want to add to that? I agree. We live in a culture where if you're masculine, it's toxic.

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It's a toxic thing. If you are loud or if you're outspoken about your faith, you're kind of disturbing peace, right?

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You're disturbing shalom. So, to be masculine, to be who

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God has called you to be and speak out against evil is like, well, you're disturbing peace. You're disturbing shalom.

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And I would say that that's something that we need to rediscover.

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We need to be okay with disturbing peace when it stands for how God has called us to stand.

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Yep, that's right. I quoted it while we were in Scotland and I think perhaps in Ireland. I was just talking about the fact that there's a famous bishop in England that is known for saying the fact that the apostle

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Paul, everywhere he went in the book of Acts, there was either a riot or revival. And this bishop said,

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Everywhere I go, they serve me tea. Yeah, that's a problem I think we have.

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And we can talk a good game. We can. Christians are good at talking a good game in terms of standing for truth, laying lives down, loving your neighbors, you love yourself.

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But in moments like we're currently in with the injustices all around us, whether it's the issue of abortion or whether it's the overreach of the government and the heavy handedness of how they've handled this situation, this is where you really see whether you're a man.

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Whether you can be a man and whether you mean those things or if you just talk trash. I don't want to be a

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Christian who just talks trash. I want to actually be a person that means what I say. And with that,

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I think there's a game where that might actually happen here. One of the things you do on your show is you actually do some fun, entertaining things, which is good because shows that are just an hour and a half long, droning on are

19:22

I think boring. Go ahead. Tell us about the show. We do a thing with every guest we have and at the end after we've had our discussion, it's called the

19:30

Wheel of Groom. I'll pull it out now and we can kind of go over it. This is where I think the bear is going to do something today, right?

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I'm pretty sure I got volunteered for this. No, it wasn't even like... I was voluntold too.

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Yeah, I was just like, oh, you're doing this game. I was like, oh, okay. Okay, so let's let everyone see it though.

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That's the Wheel of Groom. What's it say on it? It's got four different games on it that you would compete with Andrew, our champion, and you go through this game.

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If you win, we're going to give you a gift. We're going to give you a Reform Dad's mug. If you lose, you have to eat three disgusting jelly beans.

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See, I don't know how I got volunteered for this. Hey, one thing, just a suggestion. One of the things we've done at Man Camp in terms of a punishment for a loss is we have done the beans.

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He's eaten quite a few of those beans. We've done that a lot, but also one thing you could do is, you know those electric fly swatters?

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One of the things we did at Man Camp, it was such a fun game, and I was seeing Blue for like a day, was you clip off some of the wire and flip it up so that it creates a connection.

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You get all the guys in a row holding hands, and then one person makes the connection and it zaps through the whole line.

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So they get tasered. Yeah, totally tasered. It's the most amazing, hilarious thing to watch a man actually get electrocuted in a safe way.

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In a safe way. At the store? No, in a safe way.

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In a safe manner? Yeah, electrocution. We did not do that in a store. I want to add a caveat, because I did see,

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I'm delirious with these allergies, I did see a recent video of some airport in India or somewhere, and this guy sees this big fan that's out of control and he goes up and tries to reach behind the fan to fix something, and he gets electrocuted and literally dies in front of everybody and nobody knows he's dying.

21:29

Nobody knows he's being electrocuted. It's like, someone come help this guy! He's just in front of everybody. People are walking around him and everything, and he's just stuck to it.

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Not that kind of situation, but you know a fun recovery situation. Where you just see

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Blue. Sorry, my allergies. Not letting me think very coherently right now. Alright, so I'll just spin this.

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Dr. Downer is still on the thread though. I don't know what

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I'm doing here. What does it say? Ciao crown. Oh man.

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So I gotta eat marshmallows from a crown or something? I don't even know. How did you know? Because he explained the one that you don't want.

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So we both have to do this? It's a competition, so we put this helmet on you.

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It's going to take 15 minutes to set this up. No, it'll be quick. So we put this...

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Yeah, I don't understand how I got... Voluntold. This is not something I signed up for today.

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So I'm putting this... So I think it's time for a commercial break, isn't it? It is in 7 minutes. Sorry to our other guest who's patiently waiting.

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Well, he's probably watching and really enjoying this right now. If I know Andrew, he's very excited about the fact that he's going to watch you do this. All right.

22:53

Oh my goodness. Nice. All right, so... So basically, marshmallows go on the end of these little strings that are attached to a crown.

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And you've got to eat what? As many as you can? Very good. I'm glad this is happening right now.

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I'm sure you're very glad this is happening right now. I like how you conveniently were like, Oh yeah, Luke would love to do that!

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He would love to! This is Luke's favorite thing to do. So, jalapeños, exclamation points...

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Hi, Pastor Zach. They're laughing at me. You got jalapeños, exclamation points, and a strawberry on your crown right now.

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I don't like that Andrew has experience doing this game. That's right, dude. You've played this before.

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So he knows all the tricks. Yeah, he does. Zach, you come on in here. And he's all like,

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Oh, I'm undefeated. It's because everyone you've gone up against has no idea what they're doing. Alright, so...

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Hey, Pastor Zach, can you tighten me up in the back here? Isaac, you gotta get in tight on Luke's face.

23:57

I'm pretty sure we are breaking every COVID -19 rule in the book right now. No, we are. Hey, we're sharing a microphone.

24:04

Look, he's not even using gloves to put these marshmallows on. He washes his hands, so he's good.

24:09

He was sprinkling COVID on these marshmallows. I'm eating them too. They're actually

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COVID -free. Where'd you get these? Oh, I got them on the back of a toilet in a Quick Trip. I'm sure they're fine.

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By the way, Quick Trip bathrooms. Not nice places. Quick Trip is nice.

24:28

It's one of my favorite gas stations. But their bathrooms... No bueno. I've never had a good experience in a

24:35

Quick Trip bathroom. They can't fit their mop machine that they sit on? No, no, no. Something doesn't work there.

24:41

It's not a healthy place to be. If you want COVID -19 for sure, go to Quick Trip bathroom. For sure.

24:49

Luke, this shot looks amazing. There's a song.

24:59

Oh, it spins! Oh, it spins too! It's automatic.

25:04

This completely goes against your whole thing of being a man. It's in the mic.

25:11

What's the lesson here? A lesson in humility? That you can be a big man and still be humble? I already figured out a way to cheat.

25:19

Do we have a timer? They're both going to press the button on top of it at the same time. And then the music will play and whoever eats the most marshmallows off of it first...

25:30

I don't know where the button's at. He put my finger on it, so that's how I knew where it was at.

25:36

Oh, wait. I think... Is it...

25:41

It's a green button. Somebody says people are getting upset because they're like, hey, don't generalize all the

25:47

QT bathrooms. People are really defensive about the QT. Someone else said, Oklahoma's QTs are immaculate.

25:53

I'm sorry, guys. I'm just telling you about the situation in Tempe, Arizona. It's not healthy. Okay, so we're going to press the button and whoever eats the most marshmallows off...

26:04

You cannot use your hands. Your hands have to go behind your back. Whoever eats the most marshmallows before the time runs out wins.

26:11

Oh, Luke can do some damage. You ready? Set, go. I think he's cheating.

26:17

He's got it connected to his... Put your hand down now. He's not even trying.

26:23

Okay, maybe he is. That's one. Oh, man, Andrew's good at this. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. These are stale marshmallows, by the way.

26:30

How old are these? He just gave up. Just give me the jelly beans. Just give me the jelly beans.

26:38

They didn't even stay on my head. Andrew's totally winning. I'll just take the jelly beans. It's less embarrassing.

26:46

Congratulations. I want to point out that your friend over here put it on my head and didn't tighten it very well.

26:54

So as soon as it started, it just fell off. Alright, so these are the bamboozled beans. If you guys don't know about bamboozled beans, these things are epic.

27:01

Some of them are delicious and some of them are not. Did you only pick the nasty ones? I did not. They're both.

27:07

Everyone's been getting all the good ones. Can I get a list of the stank beans real fast so I know?

27:13

We have dirty dishwater or birthday cake. We have toothpaste, dead fish, booger, rotten egg, canned dog food, stink bug, spoiled milk, which is a fan favorite, and stinky sock.

27:30

Oh, barf. I forgot. It's the vomit one and then the other one you mentioned.

27:35

Those are the two. I can tolerate them all except the spoiled milk. Alright, he's going to spin the wheel.

27:42

Does he have to eat all three at the same time? Hey, it's been fun having you guys on the show. Don't expect to be back on again.

27:49

I was going to say, never again. Alright. It's either going to be spoiled milk or coconut.

27:56

And everyone's been getting all the good ones when we do the show. So that's all that's left is spoiled milk. Spoiled milk.

28:02

He's going to get the bad ones. You guys haven't tried these. Are these accurate or what?

28:07

They're very accurate. Which one's that one? Tell me you didn't get coconut. What's that one?

28:14

Oh, it's good, isn't it? Oh, he survived it. He got coconut. Sometimes it takes a minute.

28:21

And bamboozled, you're either going to get a good one or you're going to get the gross, gross one.

28:28

He has a canned dog one. Toothpaste is good. Toothpaste is a piece of cake. He doesn't even have any toothpaste.

28:34

That's not fair. It stopped on his finger. It stopped on whatever that one was.

28:41

We're going to have the buttered popcorn or rotten egg. Come on,

28:49

Lord. Dear Lord, please give him the rotten egg. You can't smell it. How's that taste?

28:56

How's it taste? Oh, that's bad. Is it the rotten egg? How would you describe it, though?

29:04

It tastes like cologne. Cologne? I don't know what kind of cologne you'd be wearing. Tootie Fruity or Stinky Socks.

29:13

It's going to be... Oh, this one's not too bad. Tootie Fruity or Stinky Socks. You didn't even provide the toothpaste one for me when

29:20

I got it. Is that the Stinky Socks? No, but Tootie Fruity.

29:26

Oh, man. So you got away easy on this one. You didn't even have to do it. We're going to give you a mug anyways.

29:33

I don't want one. Just kidding. The epic thing is to take handfuls of bamboozled and just eat them all at once.

29:42

No, you take the whole pack. You know how they come in individual packs? No, thanks. I'm good. No, thanks.

29:48

All right, guys. That is Dusty Marshall, Andrew Soncrant, Reformed Dads. Go check them out, guys.

29:53

Thank you guys so much for staying with us and watching. We might as well take a break. What we're going to do here is take a quick commercial break.

29:59

When we come back, we're going to be on with Dr. Andrew Sandlin. We're going to engage the dangers of hyperpreterism. Make sure you guys like, share, click all the buttons, put it across your social media.

30:09

This next half of the episode, very, very, very important. If you are interested in the end times discussion, eschatology, things like rapture, great tribulation, all that stuff, then you want to hang out for this next part of the show.

30:21

Very, very important discussion and actually relates very directly to a lot of the things you're seeing across social media right now.

30:27

Videos coming up talking about the fact that seals are being broken and plagues are being unleashed and things like that and related to our time.

30:36

Is that true? Well, let's talk about it. We'll be right back, guys, right here on Apologia Radio. Get us at apologiastudios .com.

30:42

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... ... ... Let's welcome on again, Dr. Andrew Sanlin. Thank you guys.

35:56

And as I was having a text exchange with Dr. James Wyatt, I must say this is the first interview in all these years

36:02

I've been on where there was a transition from marshmallow eating to a discussion of heretical eschatology.

36:07

That's how we do it here. That's how we do it here, Dr. Sanlin. That's what we like to do. Yeah, I read that thread. We keep it real.

36:13

I saw Pastor James was talking a little bit of junk there about us and our timeliness.

36:19

Oh, yeah, I know. We had some technical issues today. We often do. Yeah, well, it's because we told

36:25

Andrew 10 minutes and it was 35 minutes. And part of my technical issues is my allergies. That's probably what's wrong is

36:30

I'm just in a different realm right now. I thought that was 10 minutes long, but apparently it wasn't.

36:36

So welcome, everybody. Says Jeff after every message on a Sunday. That's, yeah.

36:43

I don't have a good internal clock, everybody. That's what you need to know. I don't have a good internal clock.

36:49

Oh. By any means. So we're gonna talk. For sure you don't need a good internal clock, right?

36:54

Yeah, that's right. When I'm preaching, I don't even, I pretend like time doesn't exist. My church will tell you this is true.

37:02

So this is an important subject. It's a really important subject. And I want to say that this is a subject that is very near and dear to my own heart because I actually had friends and people that I knew that went into the full preterist or hyperpreterist movement.

37:22

They adopted that heretical position and I saw each and every single time,

37:28

I saw their spiritual lives completely collapse. And these were people who were separate from one another, different guys, but I just,

37:36

I watched it take place. And as I said, once you go down the road of full preterism, hyperpreterism, it seems that it starts to lead to a questioning of even the essentials of the faith.

37:51

I mean, I would consider the resurrection and the second coming an essential of the faith, but all the other essentials are up for grabs too.

37:58

And you'll see them denying the Trinity. You'll see them going into universalism. You'll see them start to question whether Jesus Christ still has his physical body.

38:06

Very, very difficult situation because it's a situation where people will often grab ahold of texts and show them to people to say, look, the text says this.

38:22

I don't know who that is talking into there. People will say the text does say this. And so it'll be kind of shocking to a lot of people because they'll say, oh my goodness, those first century time texts do teach that Jesus Christ is gonna return in judgment upon those covenant breakers in the first century.

38:36

You've also got the old Testament texts that clearly teach with the coming of Christ, there was going to be judgment and salvation.

38:43

Judgment on the covenant breakers and salvation as well. And so you start putting those together and people go, oh my goodness, my paradigm was wrong all along.

38:51

And along comes the full preterist saying, right. And you know what else you were wrong about? You were wrong about that larger part of the story you were told where there's gonna be a full resurrection of all these things and renewal of all these things.

39:02

That there's gonna be a final bodily resurrection and a final judgment coordinate with that.

39:08

And so a lot of them will teach this world just continues on and on and on with sin and fallenness and death and decay.

39:17

And that ultimately there's no future bodily resurrection, physical body resurrection. And that this universe just keeps on kind of humming along.

39:25

And really the ultimate goal is sort of escaping out of this body and ultimately going to a place called heaven one day.

39:32

And I mentioned to you, Andrew, last time we talked that there seems to, full preterism to me has for a long time smacked of Gnosticism in many respects.

39:44

And that's a deep concern. And that's also why I wanted to connect last week's show of a discussion of Gnosticism with hyper -preterism because from my discussions with my full preterist friends and those who were in that movement, that's what

39:57

I got. I got sort of this is really another version of Gnosticism. Some people may disagree with that but that's just what

40:05

I understood it to sound like. So Dr. Sandlin, talk to us about hyper -preterism, full preterism, its dangers and why you're concerned.

40:14

Yeah, thanks so much, Jeff. So, I mean the word preterist actually, if you look it up just means people who are concerned with the past, but when we talk about it theologically and with biblical interpretation, it's people who interpret much of the book of Revelation to have already been fulfilled.

40:32

And of course, Matthew 24, in my view and the view of many other people teaches that. Also move back into the

40:38

Old Testament, the book of Daniel. If you, in fact, if you read a lot of the

40:43

New Testament, particularly Jesus' parables and even statements by the apostle Paul, there is this sense of impending doom on apostate

40:52

Israel. And we don't think about it much today when we look back and read the Bible because this is past to us.

40:59

And therefore, because it's not important to us, we think it wasn't important to the biblical writers to shove everything into our future.

41:07

But that's not the way to read the Bible. I mean, the Bible does speak to us directly, but if somebody wisely said the

41:12

Bible can't mean what it never meant, that's an important truth. We have to say, what did it mean? And it's historical practice, historical context.

41:22

But the problem with so -called full, I don't like that expression, full preterism, hyper -preterism, it's like a lot of heresies.

41:30

It sees a particular truth in the Bible, in this case, the parousia, the coming, the appearing of Christ in judgment, and tries to shoehorn the rest of the theology of the

41:43

Bible, the rest of the data of the Bible into that one thing. That really is to, it's not just heresy, it's to do great disservice to the

41:52

Bible. Because let's face it, the Bible is a big book. I don't mean by that that it's a long book.

41:58

It's not necessarily especially long, but it's a robust book. It's full of so much truth, so many truths, all harmonious.

42:06

So to grab on or latch on to one of them, to the occlusion of the rest, leads to heresy. We know historically it's done that, for instance, on the nature of Jesus Christ.

42:15

Some people recognized historically that Jesus Christ was. Oh, we lost

42:21

Andrew there. Hey there. But then they would neglect the fact that he's also, yeah, they would neglect the fact that he's also fully

42:27

God, and vice versa. So I think that's what's happening in this case of hyper -preterism, which leads to heresy.

42:34

It's also dangerous, I'll mention this quickly. It's also dangerous because it doesn't take into account historic orthodoxy.

42:40

Now, we need to be careful here because the Bible trumps everything, including any orthodoxies.

42:47

So we need to understand, though, that if the Holy Spirit led virtually the entire church for 2 ,000 years to hold certain fundamental truths, it's really hard to believe that they all could have been wrong virtually on everything.

43:01

Now, that's not the Roman Catholic view, that we should trust the Roman Catholic church of tradition, or tradition, that's not it at all.

43:08

But on these fundamental truths, it's hard to believe the Holy Spirit would have misled them. But they're not interested in historic

43:14

Christianity or historic orthodoxy. They're interested in reinventing orthodoxy on the anvil of their own depraved speculation.

43:21

That's my short response to the heresy of hyper -preterism. Yes, and so for those of you guys that are new to this discussion, a lot of this discussion really centers around the eschatological issues involved with, as people talk about it today, the seven years of tribulation, the rapture, the great tribulation, what

43:42

Jesus is discussing in the Olivet Discourse. So you have Mark 13, Luke 21,

43:48

Matthew 24 is the Olivet Discourse and the Synoptic Gospels. Now, Luke will give, at times, it's the same discourse.

43:57

Luke is giving more, I think, of a Gentile sort of interpretation even of things. So I'll give you an example

44:03

I'm talking about there. In Matthew 24, Jesus says to those he's talking to, his generation, those disciples, after he says that, look at the temple, you see all these things, not one stone to be left standing upon another.

44:15

It's the temple of their day, same discourse, and he tells them what to be on the lookout for, persecution, all these difficulties.

44:22

And then he says, when you see Jerusalem, sorry, when you see the abomination that causes desolation, he says, flee, right?

44:29

And it's a local judgment because they can leave Jerusalem to get away from it. So it's not a global, it's a local judgment, very, very important there.

44:35

But Luke will say things like in his Olivet Discourse, he'll say, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then flee.

44:43

And it's interesting on this note in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus is talking about what they're to expect in their generation, not passing away until all, all these things take place.

44:54

It's interesting that you can find, it's not hard to do, early church writers, pastors, fathers, and people throughout church history, showing that actually, look, that's a vindication of Christ as Messiah.

45:05

He clearly knew that within that generation, that temple was gonna fall, all these covenantal judgments were gonna fall on the covenant breakers, and it was gonna take place before they all passed, before that generation passed away.

45:17

This vindicates Christ as Messiah. They were using as an apologetic. I'll give you an example of Eusebius.

45:24

Eusebius, early church pastor, writer, he actually argues, apologetically speaking, that the early

45:32

Christians escaped from that judgment in Jerusalem because they had been given a prophecy, vouchsafed by holy men.

45:40

And he's referring to that prophecy of the great tribulation in the Olivet Discourse. And he actually says that the early

45:46

Christians escaped that judgment in Jerusalem because they actually followed what

45:52

Jesus was telling them to do in Matthew 24, and they fled to a town called Pella. So when we say preterist, we're contrasting preterist,

46:02

Orthodox preterism, the idea that most of these prophecies are passed in fulfillment, to futurist.

46:10

And futurist would see the vast majority of these kingdom issues, great tribulation passages, as future to us.

46:16

So if you're wondering what's all this mean, preterist means past in fulfillment, futurist means all that's future.

46:23

So preterists are Orthodox. You have some of the giants of the faith, truly giants of the faith, who were preterists.

46:32

They would refer to the great tribulation passage as past in fulfillment. I'll give you a modern famous preterist.

46:37

I would encourage you to get his book, Dr. R .C. Sproul, who is now with his savior.

46:43

He wrote a great book called The Last Days According to Jesus. He did a whole series on it. I believe the series is free online.

46:49

You can go actually and check that out yourself and get into that. I've done a study through the great tribulation. Apologia Studios, look through our

46:55

Matthew series. You'll see a lot of those discussions. We've got some of the giants of the faith were preterists.

47:01

Greg Bonson was a preterist. And so it's not hard to find preteristic interpretation throughout the history of the church in terms of the great tribulation, the

47:09

Olivet Discourse, the kingdom of God prophecies, past and fulfillment. Jesus established his kingdom.

47:14

It's growing in history. But what you will see with Orthodox preterists is they're always pointing to that entire narrative of the

47:21

Bible that shows sin, curse, fall, death, all that. And then you've got Messiah coming, incarnate taking on flesh, conquering death in physical form, in the same body, but resurrected from the dead.

47:33

And then that resurrection is promised to those at his coming. Ultimately in the future, after every enemy is put under the feet of Jesus, then finally death will be dealt with, 1

47:44

Corinthians chapter 15. Orthodox preterists would say that, no, Jesus is coming back to finish the story.

47:51

We have hope ahead of us of death finally being defeated once and for all, just like Jesus defeated it.

47:58

And he's gonna do that for us. Hyper preterists will basically take, I'll give you some passages, because this is important.

48:05

I wanted to do this, Andrew. Thanks for hanging on here. I'm gonna actually just bring some people through this. There are over a hundred preterist time indicator passages in the

48:16

New Testament alone. You've got Jesus, of course, Matthew 3 .2, kingdom of heaven is at hand.

48:22

Who warns you to flee from the wrath about to come? John the Baptist, Matthew 3 .7, using the term mellow in the

48:29

Greek, about to come. The ax is already laid at the root of the trees. John the Baptist is talking to that generation, those people, the ax is laid at the root of the trees.

48:37

Ax is already in motion and swung, that tree's coming down. Matthew 3 .10, his winnowing fork is in his hand,

48:43

Matthew 3 .12, the kingdom of God is at hand, Matthew 4 .17, the kingdom of God is at hand, Matthew 10 .7,

48:49

and here's one, pause, big one. Big, big, big, big, big one. And I assure you,

48:55

I know that most of us have read this passage and just skipped right past it, like, I don't know what that means, but it's a big one.

49:02

You shall not finish, Jesus talking to his disciples, first century, he's not talking to you, he's not talking to you, he's not talking to me, he's talking to them.

49:11

He says, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes,

49:18

Matthew 10 .23. Who's he talking to? He's talking to those disciples, he's telling them what they're gonna expect, and he says that you're not even gonna finish going through the cities of Israel until the

49:28

Son of Man comes. Doesn't mean final resurrection, second coming, there are lots of judgment comings of Yahweh throughout the

49:37

Bible, and the fact that the Son of Man is coming in judgment upon the covenant breakers before they all die is not hard in terms of the flow of all of biblical history.

49:47

You've got Matthew 19, chapter one, God comes on a swift cloud against Egypt and the idols of Egypt totter and tremble, and you've got the heart of the

49:57

Egyptians melt within them. Well, is Yahweh literally surfing on a cloud, coming to Egypt? No, I don't think so, but he did come and he did bring judgment into Egypt, and so of course you have

50:08

Jesus also coming in judgment. You can, I mean, I'll just keep going here,

50:13

Matthew 24, 34, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Jesus is talking to them, they're asking questions about that temple, and he points them to the fact that it's about to fall, not one stone upon another, and all those things are in the context of that generation, the near demonstrative.

50:30

You've got, let's see here, Andrew brought up the parables. These are really important.

50:35

If you read the parables alone, just read Matthew, listen, to get it consistent, read Matthew 21 through 24.

50:43

Read it as like you would any other book. Don't read it as Jesus talking to you. Do these things in principle, can we apply these things, of course, but he's not talking to me, he's not talking to you, he's talking to them, and he'll say things like, there's a owner of a vineyard,

50:59

I'm paraphrasing here, and he keeps sending people, and they're stoning one, beating another, and all these things.

51:04

He goes, well, I'll send my son, they'll respect my son. So he sends the son to the vineyard, and of course the vineyard workers are like, oh look, here comes the heir, let's kill him and take his inheritance.

51:14

And Jesus says to them, those Jewish leaders in his day, he says, what do you think the vineyard's gonna do when he finds out?

51:22

And of course the first century Jews are going, oh, he'll destroy those miserable wretches, and he'll lease the vineyard out to others who will give him the fruit of it, and he says, yeah, that's you.

51:32

And then of course the next parable, again, judgment upon them. And then the next parable, judgment upon them. It's clear judgment on that generation, those

51:41

Jews. Another one, these are the days of vengeance in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled,

51:47

Luke 21, 22. This generation will not pass away until all things take place, Luke 21, 23.

51:53

We can go on, but there are over 100 preterist time indicator passages in the

51:59

New Testament that let's just be honest, brothers and sisters, and have integrity as Christians. There's no way to twist these texts to be talking about a future generation than the generation

52:11

Jesus was talking to, and we ought not want to do that. Let me just say this. One of the great challenges you will have if you do any engagement with skeptics, critics of the

52:22

Bible, atheists, agnostics, those who know their stuff and read their Bibles, one of the things you're going to engage is you're gonna engage people who say that Jesus did not know the timing of his coming, that the apostles were wrong.

52:35

Clearly Jesus thought he was gonna return in that first century generation. And you know what's amazing?

52:41

They're right. They're right. Jesus did teach he was gonna come in judgment upon that generation, and so did the apostles.

52:50

And guess what? So did the Old Testament. So did the Old Testament. But here's the amazing thing. It happened on time as planned.

52:58

Why are we giving tools to the unbelievers to use against our faith?

53:04

Isn't it amazing? Just, and I'll shut up here, Andrew, and you can jump in. I think this is fascinating, truly fascinating.

53:10

You've got early Christian pastors using the Olivet Discourse in an apologetic context.

53:17

Hey, look, this happened. Hey, look, the early Christians escaped because they were listening to Jesus here in the Olivet Discourse.

53:23

And look, they actually were spared. Historically, we know that. And they were using it apologetically, like that's past in fulfillment.

53:29

But then you've got people today going, oh no, all those things are referring to my generation. It's about to happen to me.

53:35

Coronavirus is probably the lead -in. So this is one of the biblical plagues. Every generation, by the way, thinks that about their plagues.

53:41

You know that. Every generation of Christians think that about those plagues. But we take those passages and we're moving them future to us, right?

53:49

We're moving them future to us. And we're giving tools to the unbeliever going, oh, no, no, no, we're making excuses.

53:55

Yes, Jesus uses the near demonstrative in Matthew 24. I know he does. I know he's talking about their temple in that context.

54:02

But I think that this is actually referring to us. It's future to us. It's like, why are we doing that to the message of Jesus where it actually makes

54:10

Jesus look pretty dang glorious? And what I want to say is this, this is how the full preterists will get people into this mindset is they'll show them, look, these texts can't be avoided.

54:23

It really happened. And then everyone's paradigm gets shook. Good. And then they go, oh, great.

54:28

So, okay, it did happen. Praise God. Wonderful. And then the full, sorry, the hyper -preterist comes along and says, you know what else is not true?

54:37

Maybe we should reconsider that Trinity notion. Maybe we should reconsider the issue of the atonement and talk about universalism.

54:43

Maybe we should reconsider whether Jesus actually still has that physical body in the heavenlies, whether he's actually been raised in that body and has it today.

54:51

Maybe we should question whether there's a final judgment and a full summing up of all these things. You know, we should question all those things now.

54:58

And you'll often find, and look, if you're a person who holds to what you can consider consistent or full preterism today, and you're listening to me, let me just say this to you.

55:09

I care about you. I love you. You need to escape. And I want to say something that I think you need to hear.

55:17

Are you on the outskirts of the people of God? Have you noticed that since you've adopted full preterism and you're there now? Have you noticed that you're on the outskirts of the people of God?

55:25

Have you noticed how your spiritual relationship has crashed and burned? Have you noticed how bitter and angry that you've become?

55:34

Now watch this. I know, please hear me on this. I know that there are full preterists or hyper -preterists that would say, no, not me, but I'm talking to the ones that I know and I've had experience with.

55:44

I know this world. And I'll tell you right now, can you just question that? Like I'm bitter now,

55:50

I'm angry. My spiritual life has crashed and burned. I find myself on the outskirts of the body of Christ.

55:58

Have you thought about, hmm, does this seem like somewhere the spirit of God is active and working?

56:05

Now I'm not saying you judge things based upon experience, but I'm telling you about the experience and I'm telling you about the losses that I've seen and the damage that this has caused.

56:14

And it concerns me and I care about you. Please don't see this as an attack upon your person. I'm encouraging you to see an inconsistency in the movement and the damage and the toll that it has taken upon many, many people.

56:28

And just how much damage it does to people and takes them outside of the body of Christ, I think is the critical issue.

56:33

Andrew? Well, Jeff, I was just gonna say, as I was listening to you, that was so powerful and so eloquent and so absorbing.

56:42

I hope your audience listens to it. I think that one of the real dangers and reasons for hyper -preterism is just a lack of understanding of what

56:52

I'd call the flow of biblical history. So God creates everything and man falls. And then there is, of course, the judgment.

57:00

Cain and Abel, of course, the first murder. Then, of course, later on, the death of Abraham. Then there is the flood. And then the

57:05

Tower of Babel, not long after that, mentioned in late Genesis 11 or 12, God calls a people.

57:12

He calls Israel, the special covenant people. Not that he excludes everyone else in the world from his work, but these were special covenant people.

57:21

Well, the fact is, the vast majority of the Old Testament, let's be quite honest about it, is about God's dealings with Israel.

57:27

So this is a really big issue. And then we come into the New Testament, and despite all of these warnings in the last part of Deuteronomy, all the warnings of the prophets, here comes the one final prophet, as you indicated before,

57:41

Jeff, the perfect son of God, the one final true prophet, Moses would have said.

57:47

And what does Israel do? They kill this one final true prophet, who is their Messiah. And therefore, all of the judgments that have been prophesied, these covenant judgments, are promised again and again and again and again.

57:59

In fact, I would say, Jeff and Luke, you can't really understand the Bible if you don't understand this theme, this recurrent theme about God's love for Israel.

58:10

If we may say so, his sacrifice for Israel, his agony as Jehovah God, the husband of Israel.

58:16

And yet, he turns her back on him, and therefore, he judges them in AD 70. This is not a minor part of the

58:22

Bible. So if you don't understand this, you're not really gonna understand the Bible as you should.

58:28

Well, their hyper -preterists see this, and then they say, ah, well, that's the whole story. But actually, that's not the full flow of biblical history, because God also said he was gonna call the

58:37

Gentiles. And he did call the Gentiles. And the flow of biblical history also involves, and this is where the

58:43

Gnosticism tragically comes in, the redemption of the material world. And that goes back not to Genesis 11 and 12, but to Genesis 1 and 2.

58:52

That's why you see in the bookends, in the book, you see Israel in the middle, the large part, but on the bookends, you see

58:59

Genesis chapter one, and then you see Revelation chapters 21 and 22. That's why it's so remarkable.

59:06

The flow of biblical history then ends with the redemption of all things, the material world, and the return of Christ to put,

59:12

I'd like to put it this way, guys, the exclamation point. The Bible doesn't teach things are gonna get worse and worse and worse, and everything's gonna be terrible, and then we will finally escape from our bodies.

59:23

No, 1 ,000 times no. There'll be an advancement of the kingdom, but still sin in the world.

59:29

Advancement of the kingdom, still death in the world. People, I believe, will live longer lives, but still not the definitive defeat of sin.

59:36

And then Jesus Christ comes, there's this glorious sentence going along, going upwards and upwards, and then we get to the end, and there's that final exclamation point, which ends with the coming of the

59:48

Lord Jesus Christ. And this is why I think in some ways, guys, and I'll conclude with this for this segment, but if you hold to hyper -Praetorism, if you walk it to its logical conclusion, it really is an attack on the cross.

01:00:03

Because on the cross, Jesus Christ began to put to death, in a principled way, fully, in a principled way, put to death

01:00:11

Satan, and of course the powers, and evil, and so on, but of course, that has to work its way out in time and history, just as the fall worked its way out in time and history.

01:00:20

So redemption works its way out in time and history. And what we're really saying is, if history goes on, and on, and on, the cross really wasn't efficacious.

01:00:30

To me, there are a lot of dangers with hyper -Praetorism. It really, in the end, is an attack on the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, and to me, that's why it's most dangerous.

01:00:40

Very, yes. Yeah, so I actually was having a conversation, I think it was two weeks, it was last week, or maybe two weeks, yeah, with a guy that is,

01:00:49

I think, wanting to buy into full Praetorism, or hyper -Praetorism, but was kind of on the fence a little bit.

01:00:57

So I had a good conversation with him, and I think this whole discussion between hyper - and partial -Praetorism came down to one point.

01:01:06

So I wanna hear what you have to say to this, Andrew, but basically, I said, well, we would say that Christ is ruling and reigning now, and he will be until we look at Hebrews 10, and in 1

01:01:17

Corinthians 15, right, yeah, he, you know, we would say he's ruling now until every enemy is put under his feet and the last being death.

01:01:27

And did we lose Andrew there? I think we did, but go on. Okay, so. I'll fill in. And so he said, right, he agreed with that, but then he's, you know, he said, well, then

01:01:40

Christ will return. And he says, well, it doesn't say that in the text. And I said, oh, there he is.

01:01:47

We back? Sorry, guys. That's okay. I'm not sure what happened there. It's all right. I'll just repeat.

01:01:53

So Luke, go back. So what was the one point? Yeah, so I said, you know, as partial -Praetorism, we would say that Christ is ruling and reigning now, and he will be until every enemy is put under his feet.

01:02:03

The last being death. 1 Corinthians 15. Yeah, and then I said, and then Christ will return.

01:02:08

And he said, well, yeah, but the text doesn't say that. And so I said, okay, so you're saying then that essentially it's just open -ended, that Christ is just gonna rule and reign forever, even though the text says until this point, there's a definite point in time, and then what?

01:02:23

You know, but it's like there's just this open -ended, well, you know, that's all that the text says.

01:02:29

So that's, you know, where I'm at with this. So. Well, yeah, I think the problem there, remember 1

01:02:36

Corinthians 15, Paul is not specifically dealing with the issue of what we call the second advent, this final parricia, but about the resurrection.

01:02:47

Now, of course, that's coordinate with the second advent, but even the idea of Paul Elsword talks about, you know, well,

01:02:53

I think they're even, the kingdom being turned over to the father. And of course, the other thing he says is, and this is something that I think people don't see, that of course, death itself is the final enemy that will be destroyed.

01:03:06

Well, there has to, if death is the final enemy, incidentally, the Bible does not teach that death is a beautiful, lovely thing that we all should seek.

01:03:15

Death is evil. It's a terrible thing. It's a disruption in God's created order. It's a sad thing, but that death will be destroyed.

01:03:22

Well, there has to be a definitive point at which that happens. And there are a number of times in the Bible, and I know hyper -preterist will dispute these texts, but I think some, like in the book of Hebrews, Christ appearing, the parricia, the second time without sin for salvation.

01:03:36

Jesus said, when he goes, I'm gonna return just in the same way. There are a number of texts like that that can't, in my view, can't be interpreted in any other way than in a physical, visible second coming, which doesn't negate all the other texts that refer to his coming and judgment in Jerusalem.

01:03:54

Excellent. Yes, and I think it's important to note in 1 Corinthians 15 that there's just no way for us to really maneuver around in a coherent and meaningful way.

01:04:04

The fact that it teaches that he must reign until there's something, all enemies are under his feet, and then death.

01:04:10

So if you look around us today, I'd say if the hyper -preterist scheme or perspective was true, that's awfully odd.

01:04:20

We have so many enemies still around and so much death still going on, but they'll say, well, that's all spiritual, and that's what they tend to do, is they'll say, but see, in this text over here,

01:04:30

Jesus says that if you believe in him, you'll never die, and they'll point to the clear aspects of our salvation that clearly do have to do with the fact that we already have eternal life now, all those different things.

01:04:41

But like Andrew says, the biblical narrative can't be just pulled off of mere proof texts.

01:04:48

It's an entire big book, big story, and you've got all these points of contact throughout the entire narrative from the fall itself, and of course, sin and fallenness, the separation from God, physical death, the death is seen as an enemy,

01:05:02

Jesus coming, taking on flesh, actually becoming one of us, human, conquering death physically, they're touching him after his resurrection, the promise that our resurrection is gonna be like his resurrection, that's what people miss, is that our resurrection's gonna be like his resurrection.

01:05:20

Question is, what was his resurrection like? Well, they touched him, they ate with him, he had a physical body. You cannot avoid that.

01:05:28

Our resurrection's gonna be like his resurrection. He had a physical body raised from the dead, so will you.

01:05:35

But another, just as an example, one of the things that hyper -praterism denies is that there's a last day of human history.

01:05:43

So they'll deny a resurrection at the end of history, they'll say, no, history just kinda goes on forever, and there's no actual ultimate end, final day, full resurrection.

01:05:54

You're gonna have problems with texts like this one. John chapter six. John chapter six.

01:05:59

That's right, I think, and because of my strong belief in the creation, fall, redemption is basically the storyline of the

01:06:06

Bible, to me, the real problem is with, they do not have a definitive defeat of sin.

01:06:13

And so really, they have a very incomplete redemption, and that's why they have to go Gnostic, so many of them, as you said, and sort of have to have a doctrine of escape.

01:06:20

But of course, sin happened on the plane of very physical, tactile human history.

01:06:26

I mean, you could go touch Adam with your hand, you could touch the tree, you could get a splinter in your hand, as Francis Schaeffer might say.

01:06:33

Well, therefore, the victory has to be not an escape from that history, but within that history, but you don't have that with hyper -preterism, so it really, and that's why it really undermines the redemptive work of Jesus Christ.

01:06:45

Very much, and so the text I wanted to go to, it's often missed in terms of a last day and final resurrection.

01:06:52

When hyper -preterists will take the last day, and they'll cram everything into Israel's story.

01:06:59

Cram. They'll cram. They cram everything in Israel's story, Andrew's exactly right about that, and so they take every concept, every timeline, everything has to do with just Israel.

01:07:09

They forget, of course, the larger scope of the kingdom of God, promises in the Old Testament, with Jew and Gentile together in one body.

01:07:15

They neglect what the New Testament teaches concerning that, but they're also ignoring clear statements by the

01:07:21

Lord Jesus, like this one, in John chapter six. Just listen to this one, and just think about this. If the whole last day concept has to do with just Israel and Israel's story, then how does it work with something like this?

01:07:35

John 6, 35. Jesus said to them, I'm the bread of life. Whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

01:07:41

But I said to you that you have seen me, and yet do not believe. Here it is. All that the

01:07:48

Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me, and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

01:08:09

Now, I believe that I'm one of those people who was given to Jesus by the

01:08:15

Father. I trust in Christ. I've been given to Jesus by the Father, and he says that the will of my

01:08:20

Father in heaven is that all that's been given to me, I'm not gonna lose any of them, and I'm gonna raise them up on the last day.

01:08:28

Now, what about me? What about everybody on the other side of the first century itself?

01:08:36

All these people given to Jesus by the Father, the promise he makes, and I'm going with his words here, he's the incarnate one.

01:08:43

He says that the will of the Father is that he loses none of us, and that he will raise us up on the last day.

01:08:49

Well, here's the question. If hyperpreterism is true, where's my last day? Where is it for me?

01:08:56

That's a good point. Where is it for me? And so this is one of those things where the hyperpreterist scheme cannot pull all this together.

01:09:04

I agree with my hyperpreterist friends that much of the New Testament discussion is related to the covenant breakers and the judgment, soon coming judgment upon them.

01:09:16

Yes, the Old Testament promises judgment and salvation at the coming of the Messiah, of course, but there's a whole other part of the story that's not just about Israel.

01:09:24

Jesus says in John 10, his flock doesn't just consist of Jews. He says, other sheep

01:09:30

I have, which are not of this fold, excuse me, them I must also bring. And there'll be one flock with one shepherd.

01:09:37

You see, the story is larger than Israel. It is, it just is. And the biblical narrative is larger than just spiritual death.

01:09:45

Of course, there's spiritual death that Jesus overcomes. I have that resurrection now, I'm alive from the dead, but that's not the end of the story.

01:09:53

Jesus is alive physically from the dead. And when he is raised, again, he is able to be touched.

01:10:00

Of course, it's a resurrected glorified body, but remember he eats fish, he touches them, they touch him, he hangs out with them.

01:10:10

It was a physical body. And that's, I think the beautiful part of the story is that Jesus is gonna overcome all of this and subject all things to himself.

01:10:18

Hyper -Pretorism doesn't have that. So. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I think another thing you could have mentioned on what you probably did,

01:10:25

Jeff, and you've seen this, I mean, from your own background, own friends and pastoral ministry, as most, and I want to use the word very carefully here, there is a cultic, mine is easy to just call people cults.

01:10:38

I know you guys have, I have, but the cultic tendency is to fasten on one single aspect of the

01:10:44

Bible. You've noticed that about often the Jehovah's Witnesses, certain Mormons, one or two aspects of the Bible.

01:10:50

But the orthodox, what makes orthodoxy what it is is a recognition of the fullness of the

01:10:56

Bible. You're not obsessed with one section of the Bible or one teaching of the Bible, but see it in its fullness.

01:11:02

It seems to me, at least in the Hyper -Pretors that I've known they constantly have to be talking about this issue.

01:11:08

This is their issue. But that's not how Jesus talked, that's not how Paul talked, for that matter, how the great

01:11:13

Old Testament saints talked. They saw the revelation of God in its fullness. I think it's important to take that into account.

01:11:19

Yes. Excellent. And I just want to say a word to any Hyper -Pretors that are watching this right now, just know some of the statements that I made in terms of the denial of the

01:11:27

Trinity, denial of the physical body that Jesus has now resurrected, denial of the inerrancy of the scriptures, going into universalism.

01:11:36

That wasn't a statement to say Hyper -Pretorism breeds that for everybody. I'm telling you what

01:11:41

I have personally seen over and over and over again, and it concerns me and it ought to concern you.

01:11:47

I really want to make a plea to Christians, brothers and sisters who have been duped by this and have fallen into this.

01:11:54

It's okay to come home. Amen. Come home. Repent of this, come back, abandon that very, very dangerous movement, come home to the church.

01:12:06

I just, I know this movement well, and I'm telling you, I know what it looks like inside of it.

01:12:12

I know there's a lot of guys that are listening to this now, they're like, you're not explaining my story, and I'm fine. Okay, but I'm talking to the ones that have been devastated by this stuff.

01:12:20

And gosh, you can let go of it. You can, you can come to a more consistent reading of the scriptures.

01:12:26

You can be consistent as a Preterist and acknowledge what Jesus said happened and it came true without abandoning the big blessing of the larger part of the story.

01:12:38

Come home, repent of this stuff and come home. You can come home and be well.

01:12:44

So I encourage you to do so. And I know that much more could be said on this.

01:12:50

We just wanted to give this a quick touch and a burst because people were asking us questions about it. But I wanted to do the show and at least provide some basic background of our understanding and our perspective on this issue.

01:13:02

And Dr. Sandlin, I wanna thank you once again for joining us and spending the time and hanging out for so long with us. You guys are worth it.

01:13:10

You guys are worth even the little headgear and the marshmallows. You're worth it.

01:13:16

That's right. Luke didn't know that was gonna happen today. He was not prepared. No, great seeing him. No, not at all.

01:13:22

Dr. Sandlin, thank you, brother. Where can everyone go to get your stuff? Okay, good. And put this up on the screen eventually if you can, guys.

01:13:29

Christianculture .com and docsandlin .com is the blog. And then if you guys can, anybody wants to, you can like me on Facebook.

01:13:36

And there's a new e -newsletter out called Culture Change. Just look out for it online. But Christianculture .com,

01:13:42

we just put my name in a search engine. You'll find all the good, the bad, and the ugly. Thank you, brother. You're the best.

01:13:47

All right, guys, love you. We'll talk to you again. Love you too, brother. There's no bad. There's no bad. No. It's all good.

01:13:55

So good show today, guys. Thanks for hanging with me, especially during my massive allergy attack right now.

01:14:02

And thanks for putting up with maybe the moments where I was a little out of it. And thanks for cheering the bear on with his marshmallows.

01:14:13

We weren't ready for that today. No. We weren't ready. No, that's all right. But I'm glad it happened. I'm glad it happened.

01:14:18

Here's Dusty coming around laughing. I'm gonna come. All right, guys. I'm gonna come crash his show and make him play a stupid game.

01:14:25

You should think of a very creative game. I will. That he can't accomplish.

01:14:30

And you'll come on the show and make him do it. Yeah. It'll be payback. I'm the champion. We're just gonna wrassle.

01:14:37

Wrassle. All right, guys. ApologiaStudios .com is where you guys go to get more. Don't forget, if your church is not connected to end abortion now, you need to be.

01:14:48

We've been sending out kits. We're sending out, I think, 10 more kits this week to local churches. So praise God for that. Lots of babies being saved.

01:14:54

We actually just had a save last week ourselves at Apologia Church. Every life is worth this entire ministry.

01:15:01

And now we're at thousands and thousands and thousands of babies who have been saved from death. And it's all because you guys partnered with us with End Abortion Now.

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