Pope Francis, Dan Barker, Bad Bad Twitter Man, Wilson vs. “Augustine Actual”

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

Well, good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line it is the 12th of May we will have a

00:40

Guest filling in I guess on Thursday. Oh you changed riches messing with stuff on the

00:49

There's a new bug and just doing all sorts of weird stuff, but I don't know why

00:55

You know, it's sort of like my wife does type same type of thing, you know It just has to start changing everything in the house and it's like, okay, whatever

01:02

Anyway, some of us Like things just you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, you know type thing

01:09

But there's I mean, I've never seen have you ever seen that bug before I've never seen that before. Is it readable?

01:14

Not really Oh It's readable just fine. I can't read it for love no money, but Whatever.

01:23

Okay The other one was quite readable. It wasn't broken. So there you go.

01:28

Anyway, um So we'll have a guest in on Thursday, hope you'll be up for that I need to make a quick trip and So this is going to be a short week for me as far as programs are concerned

01:45

But we'll try to get back to it and Lord willing when we get back Next week

01:53

Pope Francis on yesterday May 11th Well, I really don't get the feeling that Pope Francis is like Donald Trump I Really don't see him with a smartphone in his cassock or whatever

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I could be wrong, you know, maybe but So somebody in his office probably

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Tweeted the following. I would like to remind you that on 14 May Believers of every religion are invited to unite themselves spiritually in a day of prayer fasting and works of charity to implore

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God to help humanity overcome the coronavirus Hashtag pandemic hashtag human fraternity hashtag pray together and so what what catches your attention,

02:51

I mean not with Pope Francis is this is exactly what you'd expect from Pope Francis and but So on on Thursday then

03:04

Believers of every religion are invited to unite themselves spiritually in a day of prayer now

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One of the problems in reading papal stuff is that it's almost always a translation and So if it ends up Sounding completely strange in English.

03:24

It's really easy to say. Well, you know, it was originally in The Pope's mother tongue or is written in Latin or whatever

03:35

But this is a little unclear But it seems that what the

03:41

Pope is saying is that you have believers in every religion and he has said that He has made statements that I personally believe

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Many previous Popes would have found to be completely heretical just completely heretical and It sounds like he's saying that these believers of every religion are invited to unite themselves

04:12

That is across the boundaries of these faiths Spiritually in a day of prayer fasting in the works of charity to implore

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God to help humanity overcome the coronavirus. So you You are able to implore

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God to help humanity by doing works of charity, so You do stuff to try to what convince

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God to help more than he's helping at the moment type of situation Obviously The the the

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Pope has a very ecumenical perspective and a very ecumenical view of differing religions and In light of statements that he has made it really

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Strikes many of us that it's a regular drumbeat That he is a universalist.

05:10

Everyone's going to be saved. That's why you don't need to proselytize Proselytize anyone They're they're gonna be just fine as long as they're believers in something or You know, then you got the atheist guy.

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It wasn't a believer in anything, but he baptized his kids. So That's I guess maybe a act of work of charity or something.

05:31

I don't know but whenever you have a movement toward universalism in any form

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You end up with a diminishment of the centrality of Christ in every place

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Where universalism is being confessed so in this realm you have the

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Pope confessing universalism in Such a fashion that you don't need to have

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Jesus to engage in meaningful prayer So you can approach

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God and You can approach God spiritually With fasting and works of charity to implore him to help humanity overcome the coronavirus and you can do that outside of the one that he raised from the dead and Evidently while rejecting the one that he raised from the dead and has set forth as the one

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Who is mediated between God and men now if you've never been a universalist

06:39

You've never been an inclusivist never been just a wild -eyed leftist liberal then You probably are not you're probably sitting there going these people don't even read the

06:49

Bible do they well, I mean they do and they come up with other ways of understanding things and so in an inclusivist mindset any act

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In integrity made toward any object of belief So believers of every religion every religion now there are religions out there don't even have a personal

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God there are religions out there that have multitudes of gods There's religions out there that basically make you a god, but hey we all can do it

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But the idea is that as long as your Intention is right

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That you can reject Jesus, but you're still believing in Jesus Because as long as you have any type of faith in the concept of a deity

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This is faith in Jesus So that's how they get around this concept is

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They'll say on the one hand as a Christian inclusivist Yes Jesus is necessary, but you don't have to know who he is ever since the cross

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Remember just last week we read his own words Jesus died for everyone unbelievers believers

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Everyone he has justified everyone so you have

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Not only a universal atonement but you have a universal application and Basically It sounds like his idea is that the atonement is universal and has an element of substitution to it and therefore

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If that's the case, there is no need for personal faith. It's better if you do

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But it's not absolutely necessary so if you actually believe that then it's this makes perfect sense believers of religion have full access to God and You can say they have flexed

09:19

God through Jesus, but they don't have know who he is So that whole

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Great Commission thing and all that That's just you know, if you really want to Really get into it, but You can unite with all of the believers of every religion spiritually in a day of prayer fasting and works of charity to implore

09:47

God to help humanity overcome the coronavirus because He can help us

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But he needs to be convinced to do so Evidently This is what happens when you do not have a divine decree.

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You do not have God working all things after the counsel of his will you don't have the wisdom of God being displayed in all things now you have to try to convince

10:14

God to Help us out because this is this is bad. I'm not sure if God didn't see it coming or just what but it's it's it's pretty bad

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Conservative Roman Catholics recognize again the Inconsistency the historical inconsistency the theological inconsistency, but that's who

10:38

Francis is that's That's just the way is and his

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Twitter feed is filled with such things it does make you wonder if the people the

10:51

White House or is panicked when Donald Trump starts tweeting as Maybe the conservative people in the

10:56

Vatican are when Pope Francis starts tweeting. I don't know but uh Okay.

11:02

Oh, no, he found the phone again. Find it. How did how does he keep doing that?

11:07

I don't know. It's Yes Get ready to start spinning he's at again.

11:15

Yeah, that's a problem. Um back on May 5th Good old

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Dan Barker and if you don't know who Dan Barker is We've done a couple debates man, actually, you know, if you include radio debates all the way back into the 80s

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I was in I think I was in seminary May have even been before then.

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I don't remember 80s. I Remember the first time that I encountered him

11:49

His significant other was with him boy. Was she something else? Um But we're on the

11:55

Tom like a show and that was that was mid 80s Yeah, see that's that's seminary so Really?

12:07

Were you stand out there? Really? Well the first time

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I was on with him. I remember standing out in the parking lot outside of KFYI and that's what

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I found out just how Interesting those folks were Anyway, I've debated

12:29

Dan Barker twice probably won't ever again for well, just look at the last debate we had

12:36

He actually interrupted my opening statement, which was based upon his own published works Which he was selling for money in the foyer of the church

12:45

Uh to object to my citation of his published works, which he had not quoted In his opening statement because he knew they're indefensible

12:56

Don't quote me bro. Yeah, um so, uh Well, nobody knows that is anymore because that that incident don't tase me bro is now way off of everybody's radar screen anyway, um

13:11

So Dan Barker if you don't know who he is Very proud of the fact that he's a part of the mensa group

13:20

You know the super intelligent people he you know, one of the first things he informed me of was he had helped design the train system in the northeast some of you may be going that doesn't really you know, but Um, he's he's a talented pianist um

13:38

And he's written music. Oh, he loves to tell the fact that it when he was a quote -unquote christian That he wrote a youth musical that is still being performed today.

13:47

I really think there should be a concerted effort uh by everyone to make sure that no one ever performs that musical again because he loves telling that story about he gets a royalty check every year for his youth musical that he wrote, um, but His claim to fame other than being the head of the freedom of religion foundation

14:08

Yeah, that group the group that sues everybody the most litigious In your face mean nasty atheist group on the planet um is

14:19

You know that he's a former christian and so I I know these things and i've debated a couple times

14:25

Doug wilson's debated him a couple times a lot of people have taken him on over over the years and um

14:31

The first debate we had was worthwhile. He hardly even remembered me And certainly wasn't prepared for it and did his standard thing um

14:40

That was at the university of illinois. And so that was worthwhile the second time we debated um was

14:48

Not as good, uh because of the behavior issues and stuff like that. Um But that's who dan barker is and so he's he's out there um and uh

15:00

Oh see I just happened to look at twitter The drop shadow behind the text makes it hard to read.

15:07

Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah Removing the drop shadow there. You he's that's what?

15:14

Brian, that's what that's what I i'm seeing the same thing man you and I We're seeing the same thing.

15:20

That's right Eventually he's gonna find a way to turn off my uh, my twitter feed so I can't can't see these things but uh

15:32

And colin cds cds, you know, he may not know which direction he's going, but he's british.

15:37

So he understands these things i'm, not sure what any of that means but Anyhow back to dan barker dan barker wrote an article on may 5th

15:46

The coronavirus proves that the christian god does not exist and it's on pathios. Every disgusting vile thing is on pathios uh pathios is the

15:55

Is the collection device of the collective ignorance of of anything religious?

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or vile, um But starts off in simple logic the christian god promises to answer prayer prayers this god are not answered therefore the christian god does not exist

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And Now remember he came out of a charismatic pentecostal Experience and He quotes all the standard texts

16:26

If you ask anything in my name name and then he quotes all the people that are You know the paula whites and everybody else

16:32

So what this illustrates is the need to have a meaningful understanding

16:40

Of the promises of jesus and the promises of scripture in regards to what prayer is and i'll

16:47

No matter what I say anymore I get people. Oh, by the way, did you look how many how many negatives?

16:53

How many thumbs down did we have? There there were three at the start of the program, okay, but two of them had been there for six hours

17:03

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so there are actually people Who are subscribed to our channel for the and the only reason they're subscribed to the channel

17:13

Is that as soon? As the announcement of the upcoming program appears

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On youtube they immediately give it a thumbs down. So six hours ago There were two got two people

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Can you tell who they are? No, it doesn't say that's a shame Facebook would tell you um, but youtube the and and I What what kind of life is that?

17:43

you Who would I would never cross my mind to subscribe? to a youtube channel

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Just so I could be the first one before anything appears Before a word is spoken

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To thumbs down it What? What kind of life is this?

18:03

I I I would I would like to think that it's Dan Barker or or atheists like Dan Barker.

18:11

It probably isn't To be honest with you. It's probably a calvinist Uh or a king james onlyist or maybe a calvinistic king james onlyist and they're they're that's that's quite a mixture but yeah,

18:24

I I was gonna ask you before we get started how many thumbs down are we at you know, uh, right right at the start because You you let me know this morning that um

18:34

That there were already two and it was six Over six hours before the program started.

18:40

This is like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, rich and I are still alive

18:49

Yeah, it's it's great it's it's such so encouraging anyway back to Dan Barker, um

18:55

So We need to have I really I think articles like this are a great opening

19:04

To be able to present a meaningful response this type of objection but again,

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I'm gonna get people mad by saying this but I I only I can only see how reformed people can provide a meaningful response

19:18

Because what is the fundamental response to what Dan Barker is saying? You don't understand the role of prayer prayer says

19:25

That it will change things that God will act in accordance to your prayers no, it speaks of People praying to God who are righteous and it speaks of people praying to God who are submitted to his will

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And so submission to the will of God Means that your prayers will be in accordance with the will of God You're not praying to fulfill your own desires you're not praying to fulfill your own

20:02

Lusts or anything else. You're not Kenneth Copeland. You're not the name it and claim it people

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And a person in Subjection to God and desirous to fulfill his will

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Will accept the will of God When it is God's will as it was between 1347 and 1350

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To wipe out About half the world's population Now we don't know

20:36

How it impacted other parts of the world. There probably are parts of the world that didn't didn't experience it, but they weren't very

20:44

Populated parts of the world um The most heavily populated parts of the world were devastated

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And people were praying all the time And there is nothing in scripture that says that God cannot work his will

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And man can Do anything do acts of charity or fastings or anything else

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God's still going to accomplish his will and if we are Submissive to that will then our prayers will be in light of that but there is to say and unfortunately

21:26

The reason that this type of argumentation works is because people have made it so many times

21:32

But to say that there is some type of a blank check in scripture where in essence We tell

21:39

God what to do we If your prayers are based upon the assumption

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That you need to convince God to be better than he is you've totally missed the point

21:54

You've totally missed the nature of revelation. You've totally missed the nature of the

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God of scripture that's Not why we do what we do

22:07

Now Dan Barker is an apostate and Seems to be a reprobate apostate.

22:12

I mean we can pray for him but man, it does seem that if anyone ever fulfills the picture and the biblical picture of Hebrew six, uh, it would be it would be someone like Dan Barker um

22:25

Could he know better of course Have I ever seen any evidence

22:31

Dan Barker actually wants to accurately represent the other side and and and recognize category differences

22:36

No, and in fact my experience is once people proclaim themselves to be experts as almost every apostate does um then

22:49

They just start throwing all christians into the same category and that's pretty much the end of that. So so there you go um

22:57

That's why it's helpful. As I said to have a good theology of prayer So within the past 24 hours, um fell by a name of Josh Reynolds at Josh J Reynolds on Twitter Um quoted a tweet of mine from May 9th

23:23

And said what a bad tweet And that was one of the nice things that was said, um

23:33

I discovered over the weekend an entire thread um of Reformed people

23:42

That also found this one tweet and it's interesting the um

23:49

The tweet that Eric Mason went after and put in his book misrepresented his book from two years ago

23:54

It was it popped up on on Facebook, you know We thought you'd like to see how you got yourself into a bunch of trouble two years ago

24:03

And uh You know, I was the one about the lord's the lord's supper is is a messiah space it's a christ space you don't bring your

24:12

Your ethnicity and your divisions into this place. The lord's supper is a place of unity. Oh Wow, did that get?

24:21

the the nastiness So I did it again over the weekend It was a single generic tweet

24:31

It did not list a specific incident anybody could tell what current incident would be relevant but It was a general observation that again is really not disputable um

24:45

But it it's unforgivable Because even though Rona has um

24:57

Somewhat displaced everything else In media in the news in your news feed whatever else

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That has not changed at all the Presence of the social justice movement and in fact

25:22

The pandemic is plainly being used by The social justice movement as anything will be to continue promoting its um

25:35

Its goals And what I said didn't fit And so here here is a terrible

25:43

Horrible nasty heartless mean spirited tweet from yours truly once again

25:51

Uh, I hope you're sitting down because this is I I just can't even believe that my fingers typed these words

26:00

So big social justice event blows up on social media based upon partial facts

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Meltdowns, screaming, etc I go In one month the narrative will change because more facts will be available

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Proverbs says that is wisdom SJWs social justice warriors say that is white privilege.

26:26

That was it That was it. So Have we not been through this?

26:38

Over and over again Just over the past what 10 years

26:44

I mean that that's sort of you know social media has been sort of When was that, uh, when was that korean, uh, japanese, uh earthquake with the reactor meltdown because that in my mind is sort of when

27:02

Um, I heard about it happening and saw it happen

27:10

And saw coverage of it on twitter before anything else and so for in my mind that sort of when

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Social media became a primary mechanism of news And hence discussion about the news

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And and things like that uh, obviously it existed before then but In my mind that's sort of where I put it anyway um

27:41

Over the past decade have how many times? Have we had a big social justice event?

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Normally, it's some kind of shooting arrest um, someone is um, you know stuff happened in dallas with the sniper guy, um

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School shooting situations, uh Beatings, uh

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Who knows there's just nightclub shootings and The las vegas guy which no one's ever ever figured out which still is pretty amazing um all these things and what happens

28:24

Is in the first 48 hours what what it's what everyone's talking about Though nobody has a clue what in the world actually happened

28:33

Nobody does Everybody that's speculating everybody that's that's getting it's it's just They don't know

28:44

And every little piece of information even if it's not really a piece of information Even if within an hour it's going to be repudiated

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It's jumped on immediately and you try to fit it into the narrative and then now

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It it becomes used to create a movement

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Some people call this reflexivity Where there's a reflex action

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And It doesn't have to based upon truth we have an innumerable number of laws on the books now and the primary

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Drive in the creation of these laws was some type of reflexivity

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Where something happens and we've got to do something That's the new way of thinking we've got to do something.

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It's not we have principles We have laid down principles and we're going to stick with our principles and we're going to work the system and Because stuff like this happened in the past, but you didn't have this kind of reaction

30:02

Because there was still the idea of you know Law is good.

30:08

The rule of law is good. The rule of law is needed Because if you don't have the rule of law, then you have mobs

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And mobs are bad Mobs don't do justice mobs act on ignorance mobs condemn innocent people this is why biblical law cannot allow for mobs

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Mob justice is sinful. It is anti -christian

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Did you hear what I said i'm not saying this is my opinion i'm saying this is a fact You cannot look at god's law you cannot read leviticus and deuteronomy and the application of the prophets and not see

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That mobocracy is sinful It is unjust it is against god's law.

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It should be something every christian stands against Because mobs are not the means of god's justice

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They are not And we should stand against them which is why I don't understand how christians on twitter can be part of them, but That will continue in a moment so We've seen this happen.

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We've seen the mob form. We've seen the judgment Proclaimed by the mob in social justice

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Before the first hearing in a court of law ever takes place Should that not be

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Of great concern to us. Yes You would not want to be the person

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Against whom that mobocracy Proclaims guilt

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You want something called due process due process is derived from english common law, which is based upon biblical parameters

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And it doesn't surprise me That this has generational aspects to it

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I am convinced that a large proportion Of what calls itself evangelical christianity

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That a large portion of those who call themselves evangelical christians Have never read leviticus or deuteronomy or if they did once get through it just out of guilt

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They had no idea what its background was and when they got done the honest thought in their mind

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Though they never told anybody else says i'm never doing that again Because that's freaky

32:57

I don't want to read an entire chapter about how to examine leprous spots That have hair growing in them

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I don't want to do that. I'm never going to do it again. I prefer john. I prefer romans um, maybe a couple of the psalms

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But I nah, I just I don't want to go there. I just don't want to do that so if you don't

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Love that law and again Majority of of evangelicals.

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I'm not under law. I'm under grace. Therefore. I don't even have to consider these things It's not surprising then

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That there is not much of a concern for the very revelation of god's law that did influence

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The development of english common law and therefore our own legal system including the idea of due process including look

33:55

You had to come before whom? the elders at the gate There had to be examination

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There's even one instance where if you try to get somebody else in trouble You make false accusations and it's discovered that you did whatever you tried to get done to them is to be done to you

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But there is examination there is the need for witnesses and what is plain as the nose on anyone's face

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Is that the greatest concern? of the law of god

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Is the protection? Of innocent people it is not

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To catch all the guilty and why Because god knows who the guilty are

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And there's a day of judgment coming I mean, it's a given on paul's part in romans chapter 8 that god's going to judge the earth

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Judgment is going to be done. No one's going to escape. No one's going to get away with anything And so if there is a err on one side or the other type of a concept in scripture

35:10

You err on the side of protecting the innocent and that means sometimes People get away with what they do in this life

35:19

Yeah That's the point So there can be no mob That just forms grabs somebody and hangs and and hangs them up on a tree or stones them as was more common in that context

35:33

Can't be done It's it's against god's law That's wrong that's that's bringing blood guiltiness

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Upon the land and man, that's a look at blood guiltiness. That's not something we don't even think about it in our land

35:51

Because we are soaked in it We're soaked in it

35:57

There is blood flowing down our streets and i'm not talking about chicago i'm talking about any place

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Where innocent children are dismembered burned cut up sucked vacuum suctioned out of a woman's womb

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We've got blood guiltiness all around us. That's just one aspect Just one aspect there's many more

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Many more we don't even talk about But god's law was concerned about it

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Was very concerned about it. And unless you take the radical perspective and a lot of people do We can we can

36:35

I think debate this quite well, uh, but you take the radical aspect that all

36:41

Of that all including the general equity of law Was done away with and has nothing to do with us today

36:51

Unless you take that radical perspective then scripture does provide meaningful guidance

36:58

As to how we are to think and how we are to act And so Participation What what i'm saying

37:08

Is that so big social just event blows up on social media based upon partial facts first 48 hours.

37:14

That's all you've got You normally have like a picture or a video

37:20

It doesn't have it. It doesn't tell you what happened beforehand It it's often just from a distance.

37:26

You can't even see everything. That was the case in this instance But and sometimes it's not even that sometimes it's just a narrative that's come out

37:36

And you might have a police photo or a crime scene photo. So the point is 99 .9

37:45

% of the human population doesn't have a clue what happened But we all want to speculate we all want to get in there and now what happens is

38:01

You know last weekend A couple an elderly couple 85 and 86 were gunned down in a cemetery by a black man

38:13

Murdered in cold blood He then ran off into a development and was Eventually found dead

38:19

Of a gunshot wound last I read Since he had exchanged fire with the cops.

38:25

Maybe he was hit He eventually died of it. Maybe he did it to himself I don't know

38:31

Nobody says a word about that one because there is no Narrative cash

38:41

That that can't be used to push a particular social

38:49

Perspective But the shooting in georgia. Oh that can be

38:55

I mean you you literally have lebron james tweeting That he is being hunted

39:02

By white supremacists when he every time he leaves his house. This is this is this happens to everybody every day

39:10

And you know the narrative the first narrative I heard because this happened back in february I didn't hear a word about it until last week

39:17

I didn't hear a word about it till last week again Would it have happened half faster if there had not been a covet thing probably

39:26

I I don't know but I I had not seen a word about it. But the first narrative I heard Was that here's a a young athlete

39:35

Out for a jog That was the narrative We now know that's not the case, but that was the initial narrative

39:44

That was just innocent guy just out doing his thing just going for a jog and These white guys shoot him down dead in the street

39:54

Uh, because he looked like somebody that had been burglarizing houses And so that's how it was framed and so here is something hey

40:03

Don't let a good crisis go to waste That's what's happening with the coronavirus Now you've got this and Everybody jumps on the gospel coalition and erlc and everybody's getting in there and you've got to get your tweets out

40:18

And you got to get you and i'm sitting back on okay um The reality is

40:25

We all know this is true in one month In in four weeks

40:34

The situation the facts that are available will be Fundamentally different than they are right now which means

40:44

Anything we say right now is nothing more Than wasted air.

40:50

It's blather But what you're told is oh, no, no No Actually what you say right now is the most important thing what's said later on once you've got it you got to get all the emotions calmed down and you've got to look at things in a meaningful fashion and you have to You know, you have to substantiate things with facts.

41:10

That's not going to accomplish any good in society I mean we want to change society.

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So we've got to strike right now Strike while the iron's hot That's what you got to do

41:23

And here's the problem what you're doing is you are probably Functioning upon Well, you're functioning upon partial information, which means you're probably functioning upon untruths falsehoods

41:38

And you're doing so in the midst of massive emotion And my great sin my great sin is that I think and try to live as a person who recognizes that emotion

42:01

As wonderful as it is and as important as it is and as a part of god's creation of mankind

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Its expression of joy and sorrow and scripture All those things are wonderful but I'm one of those guys that sees in scripture that we are to be of a sound mind so from us

42:27

That we are to be disciplined And that means disciplining emotion

42:35

That means reigning it in controlling it Disciplining it on the basis of yes truthfulness clear thinking logic

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And I believe god made us that way We're not to be like the beasts of the field

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We are made in the image of god and in fact an aspect of that image of god is our ability to control ourselves and to think logically

43:07

And in a controlled fashion and that is a command not just for men, but for women as well and so I saw all the meltdowns all the screaming.

43:22

Oh and you saw it, too The nastiness the on all sides just wow, just just incredible stuff going on I mean profanity filter type needed stuff going on so meltdowns screaming everybody rushing to the keyboard to show how virtuous they are and and joining sides and And Like I said,

43:53

I go in one month the narrative will change because more facts will be available So, why should

43:58

I be getting why should I get involved with this and from the social justice perspective That's wrong

44:07

And I did not Well, I didn't need Another example, but I got another example of how

44:17

Deeply The ostensibly reformed community

44:24

Has been infected With this anti -biblical emotionalism,

44:34

I mean Absolutely at a speed greater than coronavirus itself

44:41

The social justice movement has wreaked havoc especially amongst presbyterians

44:52

That was my experience over the weekend Especially I had presbyterian elders

44:58

Looking at that tweet, which no one 20 years ago would have even

45:06

Given a second thought to it would have been man. You're boring But now He's not on my team.

45:13

Oh, man, has he gone downhill? Oh, wow He used to be so useful, but he's just worthless now.

45:19

I mean this guy just needs to get out of ministry He's terrible ever since he started hanging around with those loonies at apologia church.

45:26

He is just I mean Wow And these are ostensibly reformed people and it was for this for saying

45:37

Proverbs says That is wisdom. In other words A month from now. We'll have more facts

45:44

All judgments should be based upon truthfulness And yet social justice warriors say oh no, no

45:52

If you don't speak to this right now You are denying justice and that's white privilege and I can show you the treats when people are saying that look at Jamar Tisby I mean the white supremacy thing was instant absolutely instant so I kept asking people

46:14

What specifically please show me open your bible and show me where Proverbs says that is wisdom.

46:24

Can you show me where that's not the case? Nobody would be no couldn't do that It was all

46:31

Well, we just get this feeling We we're emoting and you don't emote the way that we emote and so you're the one that's changed no,

46:42

I haven't actually but What has happened? Is it over the past couple of years?

46:49

Being emotional before being biblical Has become the standard even amongst reformed people

46:59

You won't you will not be patient And allow the categories that god's law actually lays down to work out

47:08

The whole idea now is no, no, no, no, no that will not do what we need to do

47:14

Is we need to push forward the narrative and show how we are so loving I actually had someone say well,

47:23

I have a lot of friends that are really hurting about this and you're just mean to them so If you actually dare to say

47:31

That every human being no matter what color of skin they have Should have the protections of due process laid out in god's law

47:42

Then you're hurting people Which means that the holy spirit was hurting people when he inspired those scriptures, right?

47:50

or is this just some new thing where The the emotional

47:57

Compromise Of men who are supposed to stand upon the basis of the word of god and who are willing to go

48:05

I just sense in you x y and z and i'm like open your bible and show me

48:11

No, no, no, no, no, no unbelievable

48:17

Really unbelievable. Yes I was gonna say I have friends on facebook.

48:24

They don't Not anymore I hate to tell you have you looked at your friends

48:32

I'm looking at them because they said the same thing and you know what totally different circle of people

48:38

Totally different circle of people they said the same thing and they got the same response And the people in that circle that I know of are not woke

48:47

But the emotional knee jerk, how dare you? It's like we have been beaten over the head with this nonsense for months years now years now

48:57

That you will respond this way or you will be punished. You will be browbeaten and people are afraid

49:05

So it's like okay. I better get out there. I better leave. I better Oppose it Ridiculous.

49:11

This is nonsense and when we and when we warned about it A couple of years ago people like oh tinfoil hat not never that never happened no,

49:22

I mean, this is just a few people and now it's It's how everybody responds

49:28

It's how everybody responds. That's not doing justice. That's not honoring god's word. That's not showing faith in god

49:33

It's not doing any of those things Please don't ask me to join you in doing that because I can't

49:42

And I won't And if that means that we end up look every single time this happens

49:51

Door is closed to us And the reason door is closed to us is because we won't join this movement

49:58

And because this movement is indefensible um

50:04

But then what it does is it it takes people Who are self -professing christians?

50:10

And i've been saying this since 2018 There is a fundamental category contradiction between the social justice movement and a biblical narrative of what true justice is

50:23

And that category must end up displacing key Biblical teachings to be able to survive and you're seeing this

50:32

Look at the people who a few years ago

50:39

People are saying well, you know, they're still you know, they're they're very much in our circles They're very orthodox.

50:44

But you know, let's let's just listen to what they have to say. Let's hear their experience. Where are they now?

50:51

Where are they two years down the road? Are there have they not moved way to the left?

50:59

Yeah, they have As we said they would of necessity have to Because there are fundamental contradictions on The nature of christian fellowship and the nature of justice and everything else are fundamental contradictions

51:17

So point being if you dare stand back and go scripture

51:28

Tells me to be slow to speak swift to hear Do justice

51:36

Witnesses multiple witnesses due process Do this, right?

51:44

You are unkind Unloving mean -spirited and we can tell there's something wrong with you

51:52

Because you are not emoting properly You are not collapsing into emotional goo

52:00

So as to accomplish something good Because see you need to strike now

52:07

Iron's hot now Now's when we make change Well that change will require

52:13

The sacrifice of standards of innocence and justice You're you're you're not getting the point

52:24

Yeah, and so I just I just keep saying these these guys hey tell you what here's um

52:32

Here's my bible You want to let where where do we start? Where? Where do we start to find the there is no due process anymore

52:43

Where do we start that? That people with a certain skin color Are to get preferential treatment and then other people are always guilty and vice versa

52:54

Or where there's anything about skin color at all in regards to justice Where where where do we where do we get that and They don't uh, they don't bother going there because There's nowhere to go.

53:08

That's the way to go So that was the that was the terrible horrible tweet yet yet again

53:14

You know, uh every six months or so I obviously have people that just simply follow my twitter feed

53:21

And they're just looking for What they can jump on a couple weeks ago You know just make it up Yeah, he wasn't talking to that guy.

53:30

But anyway he did this terrible horrible thing and You expose it and does it continue on of course it's continuing on I guess somebody put out a video about it a couple days ago or something and again same old same old uh

53:47

Probably the same people that subscribe to the dividing line feed so they can immediately go thumbs down as soon as Six hours before the beginning of a program

53:57

Because they just know They know how terrible and horrible and stuff it is um

54:05

So uh I'm, not looking

54:11

I haven't uh I haven't looked at the uh

54:16

I did see the the uh democrat I I don't know why it is that people aren't as Uneasy as I am

54:31

When the government is talking about trillions of dollars

54:38

Trillions? You know, you know

54:44

That when you start talking about trillions of dollars somebody's getting paid under the table Can you imagine?

54:51

How much of that is going into people's pockets? As bribes and political favors and Will never pay it off It's not possible can't be done

55:11

There's a day of reckoning coming You know there just is and It's both sides of the aisle that are spending like drunken sailors

55:25

And you just go the outcome of this cannot be a positive thing

55:32

It cannot be a positive thing, but I see And then the other thing is mail -in voting

55:40

I'll just say this and we'll move on We we adopt mail -in voting Uh, there will be one party rule in this nation for at least four decades

55:51

Because one party is very happy to completely corrupt elections

55:58

That that's a given that's that's not even disputable uh, so You go that direction that's it it's all done it's all over with there you go

56:10

Okay, so whoo We are going

56:16

To continue on yes, we are continuing on And I apologize right now, um for the fact and it is a fact uh that I have been moving very slowly

56:32

In working through promised materials um Busy days lots going on and so, um

56:45

What yes so for the gentleman that just called and Insisted, uh while he was screaming and cussing at me, uh that you are endorsing these two quote white supremacists

57:02

Oh with what you just said really? Um, I explained to him after he called me an idiot that he indeed was because he doesn't listen

57:11

Well, no, it wasn't he said he and I asked him flat out Did you hear him say that and he said no, but he intimated it

57:20

There you go, and that's the problem folks. That is the problem You don't listen you hear things that people don't say

57:28

Then you hear things that other people say that other people said and then you decide that that's what they said in the first place and then you

57:37

Attribute that to them you intimate it to them. So you put those words in their mouth and the bible has a word for you

57:43

That's called gossip. Yeah gossip the liar. Yeah so, um, so he actually called up and Used colorful metaphors

57:55

One okay one colorful metaphor Um, and actually said that I was endorsing

58:02

Endorsing. Oh so Okay Yeah.

58:13

Um Yeah, this is Again, emotional people are irrational people and you can't you can't reason with irrational people um and Christians should never be irrational people

58:27

Um, it is sinful it's wrong I hope this man if he claims to be a christian will repent of his sin

58:33

Or if he's not a christian, he'll need to come to know what the gospel is That would be a wonderful thing to release him from his hatred and his irrationality

58:41

Uh and his slavery to emotions um It's very plain that what

58:48

I said is due process needs to be observed And that truth needs to be pursued

58:54

And that all facts need to be gathered and that a month from now and in fact

59:00

When I wrote that tweet there has already been material factual discoveries

59:06

That have been made In the past 48 72 hours that have changed the narrative as I said

59:16

My point was that jumping on these things to try to create Social change is unbiblical.

59:25

It's irrational. It's foolish. It's damaging And you sir, if you actually think that I was in some way

59:34

Saying oh, I just believe what they have to say then you sir are not a rational human being you are under the control of your emotions

59:44

And That's a dangerous place to be because people who can be manipulated in that way can then be controlled by others and you may

59:51

Be being controlled by others and not even realize it Is it possible?

01:00:00

That These men Were racially motivated and this was a straight -up murder

01:00:07

Yep, it is How do we determine that? due process examination

01:00:14

Is it possible that these men Thought they were doing the right thing and that this man fit a description of someone who was doing chronic robbery

01:00:27

Of houses being built in that area. Yep, that's possible, too probably somewhere in between It's probably far more complex than any single narrative

01:00:41

Would would would tell us but you see You don't know that and I don't know that I guess he's calling back now

01:00:54

So in other words, he's not listening to what we have to say Irrational people

01:01:00

Don't listen they have their narrative and there's nothing they there's no there's no there's no reasoning with folks like that There's no reasoning with folks like that So there you go.

01:01:11

All right So hopefully for anybody else who would be tempted toward that kind of irrationality that kind of foolishness

01:01:22

I'm sure he doesn't but again People like that there's nothing you can do

01:01:28

God bless you. I hope you I I hope you get some help with that anger issue

01:01:35

And that irrationality issue. All right shifting gears completely even if he calls back i'm not gonna not gonna

01:01:41

Worry about that. Um I like the new splash screen.

01:01:49

Who is this scott johnson scott? Come on, man Where is wait a minute

01:01:56

It's gone But if it was so great before Why is it?

01:02:09

Yeah I'm not I'm, not saying i'm not gonna say A word i'm just gonna press on now.

01:02:14

Okay. Um last week at some point

01:02:21

I wanted to move into A section that I had spent a lot of time preparing and Stuff comes up and things like that uh

01:02:36

Where I was spending a fair amount of time reading the early church fathers and especially reading augustine um

01:02:45

I have I have been tempted To get an augustine expert that I know involved in all of this

01:02:54

But I haven't done it so far because he's rather busy with other things. Well, we might Still might do it somewhere down the road

01:03:02

But One of the things that people have said they've appreciated now someone did make a joke.

01:03:08

What was it? Someone what was the context of that? Someone made a joke that it was going to take longer for something to happen than uh for me to finish responding to ken wilson um it was maybe it had something to do with with uh, jeff durbin finishing matthew 24 or something about the same amount of time as it's taking me to But the people who have expressed a thankfulness for the study

01:03:38

Generally have just been thankful for the opportunity to interact with the early church fathers and and with augustine's writings and with those topics

01:03:50

The exposure to these things, you know when we were working through clement we were looking working through the epistle of diognetus um looking at Ignatius or whatever

01:04:03

And it's not that these resources are not out there and available It's just that in many instances there are

01:04:11

Remember the caller last week who said man i'm really struggling with irenaeus because of the background issues

01:04:18

What is he referring to? What what are these? What's this terminology? I'm not i'm not familiar with these things

01:04:23

And so when we have the opportunity to sort of provide some of that a lot of people find it to be very useful

01:04:29

And so we continue with that and if you're not familiar with what we're doing I was challenged a couple months ago a

01:04:40

A book came out called the foundation of augustinian calvinism. The book basically claims that reform theology is nothing but manichaeism that we are manichaean christians that a belief in God's sovereignty as you would read in calvin or in the westminster divines or in the london baptist confession of faith in charles spurgeon um in in Hodge or or people like that uh warfield amongst the reformed

01:05:15

That uh that this is actually derived from manichaeism Well, not just manichaeism, but stoicism

01:05:25

Gnosticism neoplatonism and manichaeism And that this came into the christian faith through augustine

01:05:33

Who was a manichaean? hearer or auditor For nine years.

01:05:39

He was not one of the what's called the elect He was an auditor or hearer for about nine years and um then allegedly later in his life when he

01:05:55

Decided to engage in polemics against pelagius Went back to The view of god and predestination and things like that that had been his as a as a maniche

01:06:11

And so there is a oxford dissertation That was awarded a d phil

01:06:18

Which is not a phd, by the way It's actually a higher degree in most people's mind than a phd

01:06:24

Uh by dr. Ken wilson, that is that's the author of the other book. That's the popularized version This is what came first what we've been doing is we've been examining this and we have found many many problems already uh with the argumentation and with the entire idea um, and that's

01:06:42

What we've been doing we also listened to an interview that layton flowers did with ken wilson we've responded to that as well um

01:06:51

The depth to which we have gone has bothered certainly many people um

01:06:57

Which you which is what we were challenged to do in the first place the book is being presented as unrefutable unrespondable the final word the the the pinnacle of scholarship

01:07:11

Uh in this field it is not by any of those it is not any of those things but to engage it

01:07:19

Has to you have to engage it in an appropriate fashion and that's what we've been doing And in the process, hopefully those of you who are church history buffs or recognize the importance of church history

01:07:29

Have been blessed one of the things that I mentioned as I said last week is that I had Had time to sit down with one particular section

01:07:39

And uh Work through the citations that were given by Dr.

01:07:46

Wilson and just basically see Did augustine really say these things is is there a consistency?

01:07:54

um, so on page 173 of the dissertation of the dissertation,

01:08:01

I realize most people don't have that but When I started responding to the popularized book the whole

01:08:08

Hue and cry from the other side was That's that's not meant for that's not scholarly.

01:08:15

Even he said that's not scholarly. You need to deal with the dissertation And so he sent me the dissertation

01:08:21

Then we bought the dissertation in electronic format uh much easier to search for things and Check references and things like that in that context.

01:08:31

So at least he has Received some remuneration uh from that um

01:08:38

Since we bought the uh, and the electronic version costs the same as the paper version That's not uncommon in academic circles.

01:08:46

Anyway on page 173 of the dissertation dr. Wilson says In his next move augustine redefines grace

01:08:57

As the inspiration of love that produces good works now, he's going through Uh, what he does is he goes through various of augustine's works

01:09:11

And in essence seeks to interact with them I think from a very biased

01:09:19

Theological perspective it is a it is an attempt From what we would call a traditionalist perspective

01:09:26

To argue against augustine's positions, but in the process I See no evidence of a consistent or successful attempt to represent augustine's position accurately so Here's a an assertion

01:09:47

Uh that in his next move, even that to me is a prejudicial form of language in his next move augustine redefines grace

01:09:59

Would augustine have accepted that description I wonder as the inspiration of love that produces good works

01:10:07

Now, is that what augustine did? Well, let's read the section. Here's so I have wilson and then

01:10:14

I have augustine actual so here's What augustine actually said? Uh, but those enemies of grace

01:10:22

Never endeavor to lay more secret snares for more vehement opposition To that same grace than when they praise the law which without doubt is worthy to be praised

01:10:35

Because by their different modes of speaking and by variety of words and all their arguments

01:10:41

They wish the law to be understood as grace That to wit we may have from the lord god the help of knowledge

01:10:50

Whereby we may know those things which have to be done Not the inspiration of love that when known we may do them with a holy love which is properly grace

01:11:03

So this is from a um a book against two epistles of the pelagians

01:11:15

So this is part of the anti -pelagian not anti -manichaean Because they're they're when you look at augustine's writings, you'll see that they're normally broken into sections

01:11:28

His anti -donatist writings because that was remember that was the first great controversies involved with As soon as he's brought into it was a pre -existing controversies.

01:11:37

He's brought into that already When he is made bishop uh when he was almost forced to be made bishop, but You've got his anti -donatist writings and then you have his anti -manichaean writings which extend over a

01:11:55

Period of his life and then his anti -pelagian writings which are primarily toward the end of his life because that was the second great

01:12:02

Controversy that he was he would he was about this stuff is a generally available, uh online in various translations

01:12:10

And so this is the whole section So wilson says that augustine redefines grace as the inspiration of love that produces good works

01:12:22

What augustine is actually doing? He is responding to a pelagian uh utilization of law in regards to the capacity of man

01:12:36

So He calls them enemies of grace They never endeavored to lay more secret snares for more vehement opposition to that same grace than when they praise the law

01:12:49

So they praise the law and and of course in pelagianism man's ability to fulfill the law and to obey the law

01:12:57

Which without doubt is worthy to be praised augustine is not an antinomian in that sense and saying the law should never be praised

01:13:07

Because Because by their different modes of speaking. So in other words, he's saying they redefine things and they'll

01:13:16

They'll speak in one way at one time and another way at another time And by variety of words and all their arguments they wish to the they wish the law

01:13:28

To be understood as grace So they miss the contrast

01:13:35

And of course law and grace are contrasted with one another when it comes to justification

01:13:42

But the source of law as a guide in the christian life that's not made contradictory to grace

01:13:50

That's a gracious gift of god That to wit

01:13:56

We may have from the lord god the help of knowledge

01:14:03

Whereby we may know those things which have to be done so there is in in the in the pelagian idea

01:14:13

The law From the lord god gives us knowledge

01:14:19

Whereby we may know those things which have to be done which have to be done to Do what would be the question?

01:14:29

well to Attained the right relationship to god I mean i'm thinking about one street preacher right now

01:14:37

This is perfect description of him because that's exactly how he views things there. There's there are still modern pelagians.

01:14:44

They're they're still out there Not and now here is augustine responding to that pelagian position

01:14:53

Not the inspiration of love That when known we may do them with a holy love which is properly grace now is

01:15:04

Dr. Wilson trying to argue against What that says let's let's listen So this is augustine's position

01:15:11

So what he is saying? Is that grace? In the christian life

01:15:19

Is the inspiration of love that when known we may do them with a holy love which is properly grace so The law functions now remember dr.

01:15:31

Wilson is a part of a seminary that is anti -lordship Does not believe that repentance

01:15:37

Is a necessary element of the faith Okay, so on that level I would say that the man is not orthodox to begin with that is a

01:15:47

Fundamentally Unbiblical perspective very very much so So we maybe we're seeing this here

01:15:58

But evidently what he thinks he's seeing in augustine is a redefinition of grace

01:16:08

When all augustine's actually saying is in contrast to the pelagian use of law which reveals what we have to accomplish instead grace

01:16:23

Shows us the inspiration of love. I mean why do we do?

01:16:30

What god's law commands us to do as believers Because our hearts have been changed.

01:16:35

We've been changed from being god haters to god lovers Isn't that what jeremiah said was going to happen?

01:16:43

I will do what I will write my law upon their heart How does he do that?

01:16:50

in regeneration In renewal, which is an act of grace right

01:17:00

So inspiration of love that when known we may do them with a holy love We do what the law directs us to do when it reveals god's heart

01:17:10

And god's purpose for us to walk in holiness To love our neighbor, etc, etc

01:17:17

And how do why do we do we do them with a holy love? Which is properly grace, that's what augustine says

01:17:26

So, how do you get from that in his next move? It's sort of like It's very clear when you read the dissertation

01:17:35

That augustine is Well, it's it's incredibly anti -augustine. I mean it'd be really it would be a bummer i'm gonna i'm gonna tell you

01:17:45

It would be horrible To do the amount of reading that ken wilson did in augustine

01:17:53

When he has such an obvious animus toward augustine I would be

01:18:00

I mean to think of how many hours of my life I spent I mean i'm reading all sorts of stuff in cbgm.

01:18:08

I don't have any animus toward anybody I mean I think cbgm needs to be examined

01:18:17

You don't come to conclusions until the data is in but man it's wonderful the work that's been put into it and the the opportunities that it presents and and the information it provides

01:18:28

I mean that's I'm, so thankful to god for the men who are doing that kind of work, but I I would not want to do a dissertation in a subject where I just Don't like the person that i'm responding to anyway

01:18:44

Uh, so there's what augustine says so in his next move Augustine redefines grace as the inspiration of love that produces good works.

01:18:53

No, he didn't he's arguing against the plagian that in the christian life That changed heart which has been changed by grace will do what law says by love that's not a move

01:19:05

In fact, it's true Augustine was correct Uh next one

01:19:12

This is this is all in one section. I think it's all on page 174. I think I can uh

01:19:17

I have the dissertation up I can check on it, but that's where it started. So it would be within 174 175 uh next next statement

01:19:31

His neoplatonic slash Manichaean radical grace

01:19:39

Individually regenerates each dead will to hear the one's call or christ's call

01:19:47

Thereby changing the resisting heart to desire virtue and to believe in christ

01:19:55

That's wilson i've said before Please don't think i'm just being mean -spirited

01:20:01

It's very poorly written. It is not clear It it is it There is no

01:20:08

It's just very poorly written look at yourself come to your conclusions But please note his

01:20:16

Neoplatonic slash manichaean radical grace there is no

01:20:23

Meaningful definition of that phrase There can't be Neoplatonism and manichaeism

01:20:33

Have no Foundation within themselves to provide a meaningful definition of grace in a christian context

01:20:46

They don't They don't um individually regenerates each dead will again

01:20:58

Neoplatonism's understanding of mankind and his will is not the manichaean understanding of mankind and his will

01:21:06

Neoplatonism does not have demons giving birth to adam and eve or Absolute dualism as you have in manny's system but He then gives a reference

01:21:20

To the same response to the pelagians against the two epistles of the pelagians 4 .13

01:21:27

Augustine actual here's what augustine actually said What does it profit them

01:21:34

That in the praise of that same free will they say that grace assists the good purpose of everyone

01:21:41

This would be received without scruple as being said in a catholic spirit if they did not attribute merit to the good purpose

01:21:48

To which merit now a wage is paid of debt not according to grace

01:21:56

But would understand and confess that even that very good purpose which the grace which follows assists

01:22:03

Could not have been in the man if grace had not preceded it For how is there a good purpose in a man without the mercy of god first?

01:22:12

Since it is that very good will which is prepared by the lord But when they had said this quote that grace also assists everyone's good purpose close quote

01:22:25

And presently added quote and these are quotes from this these two epistles by the way Quote yet does not infuse the love of virtue into a resisting heart close quote

01:22:37

It might be fitly understood if it were not said that those By those whose meaning is known for to the resisting heart

01:22:48

A hearing for the divine call is first procured by the grace of god itself

01:22:54

And then in that heart now no more resisting the desire of virtue is kindled nevertheless in all things which anyone does according to god his mercy precedes him

01:23:09

And this they will not have because they choose not to because they choose to be not catholics, but pelagians

01:23:18

For it much delights a proud impiety That even that which a man is forced to confess to be given by the lord should seem to be not bestowed on himself but repaid

01:23:30

So that to wit the children of perdition Not of the promise may be thought themselves to have made themselves good

01:23:38

And god to have repaid to those who are now good Having been made so by themselves

01:23:44

The reward do the reward for that their work now

01:23:54

You might be going I Didn't catch The connection to what wilson said

01:24:02

Okay Remember what his assertion is His neoplatonic manichaean radical grace now what you need to understand

01:24:12

Is that this man is an inveterate Convinced Dogmatic synergist

01:24:20

And very plainly any reference to effectual grace any

01:24:28

Reference to where god must change the resisting heart

01:24:34

To the miracle of regeneration as a divine act resulting in things in man

01:24:42

Must be identified by dr. Wilson as neoplatonic and manichaean

01:24:50

There was of course nothing in either neoplatonism Or manichaeism that could ever in any meaningful fashion

01:25:00

Be said to be parallel to the idea that god

01:25:05

The one true god who created all things there's no such thing as neo in neoplatonism or manichaeism

01:25:14

That the one true god who created all things and said they were good again, no parallel Creates man in his own image and says he is good no parallel man falls in his federal head adam

01:25:32

There is no federalism in any Covenantal sense There couldn't be given the worldview of those other two

01:25:44

Perspectives which are different from one another obviously. We haven't really done much with neoplatonism yet So this whole idea of the the moniker

01:25:55

Neoplatonic manichaean to quote -unquote radical grace Is meaningless it it it cannot be

01:26:04

Substantiated in any meaningful fashion But he asked to find it in augustine because that's part of that's what he's that's what he's trying to dig for That's what he's trying to find so Grace this radical grace

01:26:20

Individually regenerates each dead will To hear the one's call or christ's call

01:26:28

Thereby changing the resisting heart to desire virtue and to believe in christ So it is a

01:26:38

It's a it's a attempt on wilson's part To make another one of these connections to neoplatonism and manichaeism

01:26:47

But as you and I listen to what I read You and I are thinking what?

01:26:53

We're thinking paul We're thinking romans 3 4 8 10 11 we're thinking philippians 3

01:27:04

Because that of course is the primary context for augustine That is the primary influence for augustine

01:27:14

Are those biblical texts? and the biblical teaching so when he says

01:27:24

What he's saying is they are putting god in the position of debt

01:27:32

Because they are able to do good Apart from the mercy of god, which is the provisionist perspective

01:27:41

Because the provisionist simply says well, it's the gospel that's gracious Gospel god didn't have to give us the gospel

01:27:50

But there is no need for provenient grace There is no need for a um

01:27:57

Banishment of the dominion of sin There is no need for regeneration Um mankind has the capacity in and of himself by his own his own nature as created by god to respond to the gracious call of the gospel

01:28:18

Without the need of the extension of the power of grace That means that the person who acts upon that then receives a reward from god

01:28:30

Because and then augustine's argument is no In christianity

01:28:38

Even the rewards that are promised to us are the results of grace so when he says

01:28:47

If they did he was and did you notice? Augustine was trying to say, you know

01:28:53

We could understand what's said in this letter in an orthodox sense except These other contexts so augustine is actually trying he doesn't always succeed but he is trying to read in context

01:29:09

Something that we also are seeking to do Though it's hard often to do with dr.

01:29:15

Wilson's material. We're trying to read it in context I give you the page numbers you can hey, you can go buy this just like I did

01:29:23

It ain't cheap But and that's not by the way, please no one has said that i've said this that's not dr.

01:29:30

Wilson's call I'm sure he wishes it was 20 bucks You've got to understand

01:29:38

Brill more cybex a lot of these. Um academic publishers

01:29:44

They only produce a small number of these works. In fact, sometimes they just produce them on demand and so They're very expensive

01:29:53

There's there's the type setting and all the rest of that stuff goes in it, so please The price all that stuff

01:30:03

None of that has ever ever ever been intended To say dr. Wilson. Dr. Wilson is not making any money off of this.

01:30:10

Okay, I can assure you um, and I would have no problem whatsoever none as as strongly as I disagree

01:30:20

With what he says of anybody getting the paper version or the

01:30:26

I like having both I use the electronic one more.

01:30:32

There's no question um but it You know, there are advantages and disadvantages to finding something again real quickly because you have a little sticky thing

01:30:43

Is old school, but it's fast But finding the thing initially

01:30:50

By being able to do a search of the entirety of the document. Oh, man, that's nice. That's nice So I would have no problem if you want to buy this and you want to check this stuff out um

01:31:02

No problem at all, uh in doing that In any way shape or form. It's uh, it's more cybex.

01:31:08

Look it up. Uh Augustine's conversion from traditional free choice to non -free free will is the title kenneth m.

01:31:16

Wilson more cybex Buy it right there on the website. They'll ship it to you um, or you can buy the

01:31:23

You have to sign in create an account and then you get your little library and you go in there unfortunately if you try

01:31:31

To print it it Specifically does it so that you lose words?

01:31:37

So they only want you accessing it through the web basically Um, so there you go um it's

01:31:45

It would be nicer In certain pdf programs do it otherwise, but anyway, so back to augustine

01:31:52

Here's what he's saying is uh He said he says this would be received without scruple as being said in a catholic spirit

01:31:59

If they did not attribute merit to the good purpose to which merit now a wage is paid of debt

01:32:07

This is this is one of the issues that we deal with with roman catholicism And it's understanding of justification and the sacraments indulgences um

01:32:19

Satisfaccio in purgatory and everything else. This is important stuff Not according to grace, but would understand and confess that even that very good purpose

01:32:28

Which the grace which follows assists could not have been the man if grace had not preceded it

01:32:35

This is the reformation kids This is the reformation If you've gotten lost,

01:32:41

I hope you tune in here for a moment What have I been saying? I remember I think the

01:32:49

I have a recollection Of saying this for the first time in the radio studio

01:32:58

When I was responding to norm geisler around 2000 Okay, so about 20 years ago

01:33:07

Um I'm sure someone else said it before me But and it's very similar to what warfield said

01:33:18

But the argument in the reformation was not about the necessity of grace

01:33:29

It was about the sufficiency of grace With the pelagians it was about both

01:33:38

Because the pelagians are saying you could do that which would place god in your debt apart from any preceding grace

01:33:51

Or at least that's the argument here so Even the semi and this is where semi -pelagianism is because the semi -pelagian is going to say no you need prevenient grace

01:34:02

But prevenient grace is not sufficient The pelagian is saying you don't need prevenient grace

01:34:10

Leighton flower says you don't need prevenient grace either All right, so It is significant to me that wilson would focus in on this section of Augustine's against the two epistles of the pelagians

01:34:27

This is 4 .13 Because this is exactly where augustine Is pointing out

01:34:35

The issue what wilson does Is wilson sees as utterly foreign to the biblical narrative this concept of grace a grace that actually changes the will a grace that Raises you to spiritual life and makes you a new creature in christ.

01:34:54

He doesn't have categories for that So he identifies it as neoplatonic manichaean radical grace even though We all sit here and go but the neoplatonists and the manichaeans had no concept of this

01:35:12

They weren't even operating in these categories They're not even They're not even in the same stadium with us when we're talking about this

01:35:24

But it seems that for wilson This is so foreign To the new testament that it couldn't have come

01:35:33

It couldn't have come from ephesians 1 it couldn't come from romans 8 and 9 it couldn't know it couldn't come many of those things It had to come from pagan religion or in this case neoplatonism and manichaeism

01:35:46

So it's it's neoplatonic manichaean radical grace There is no such thing

01:35:56

Doesn't demonstrate that there is such a thing from those sources but There you go

01:36:03

At least in a way that would have anything to do with this It's just it's so anachronistic.

01:36:09

It's so Extra contextual to what the actual argument is that um so he says

01:36:18

So there has to be preceding grace For how is there a good purpose in a man without the mercy of god first?

01:36:26

Now if you don't believe that man has fallen And that was the whole point He's he's taking the pelagian side here because That's more consistent um

01:36:41

Since it is that very good will which is prepared by the lord But when they had said this you got the quotation

01:36:46

It might be fitly understood if it were not said by those whose meaning is known for the resisting

01:36:53

For for the resisting heart A hearing for the divine call is first procured by the grace of god itself.

01:37:01

There's what? He can't accept And so he must identify not as coming from Plain biblical teaching which we can identify

01:37:13

But as coming from manichaeism and neoplatonism But it's a self -evidently true statement

01:37:22

For the resisting heart a hearing for the divine call is first procured by the grace of god itself

01:37:28

And then in that heart now no more resisting the desire of virtuous kindle this

01:37:36

Is the reformation? This is What the reformation used to free europe from slavery to rome's gospel god's grace

01:37:51

Changes the heart the changed heart loves god And desires to do what is good in god's sight this

01:38:02

Is ephesians 2 8 through 10 Not just through 9 but through 10 this

01:38:10

This is the whole concept that's being fought against pelagius

01:38:21

And augustine long ago and here we are in 2020 Some of you still in lockdown from well all of us in some

01:38:32

Way shape or form And what are we talking about? Because this is central.

01:38:38

It's definitional. You can't get away from it Okay Now here's an important one and I want to make sure to have time to get through this one because This happens

01:38:48

All the time. This is this is throughout This is a regular element of um

01:38:57

Wilson's writing wilson I think it's still page 174 Augustine accuses the pelagians of pride

01:39:07

Which quote Stop the ears of their heart end quote

01:39:13

From understanding 10 verses he cites out of context He reverts to fortunatus's

01:39:22

Manichaean interpretation of john 6 65 now again

01:39:31

I am not accustomed in reading um doctoral dissertations

01:39:37

To see the level of bias That is constant in wilson's writing so Augustine accuses the pelagians of pride which stopped the ears their heart from understanding 10 verses he cites out of context now if you were going to say something like that in any

01:39:56

Meaningfully defended dissertation you would have to demonstrate that they were cited out of context

01:40:03

Then it says he reverts to fortunatus's Manichaean interpretation of john 6 65 now

01:40:09

I was focused on this because I want to know And i've said for a couple weeks now

01:40:18

Dr. Wilson would have to be able to demonstrate What a manichaean interpretation is

01:40:28

What is a manichaean interpretation what what is what is the

01:40:35

Hermeneutical Consistent hermeneutical methodology of the manichaean religion

01:40:45

And at least here we have fortunatus's manichaean interpretation of john 6 65. Okay.

01:40:50

Well Okay, augustine has interaction with fortunatus. So Fortunatus doesn't define manichaeism, but as a manichae then it's at least illustrative

01:41:02

So is there a mechanism is there a way to determine

01:41:07

How the manichees who do not believe in solo scriptura who have an expanded canon who reject portions of the christian scriptures who accept scriptures from other religions

01:41:22

How do they interpret the bible in any type of consistent fashion? That's a really important question so But what

01:41:33

I want to see is oh, okay here we're gonna see an instance Where augustine

01:41:45

Utilizes a manichaean interpretation so we all should be this This is important.

01:41:51

This is really okay. This is this is big. This is big now Here is augustine using manichaean interpretation this

01:42:00

This would be very much a substantiating element of the thesis You ready

01:42:08

Okay Augustine actual for that very pride

01:42:17

Has so stopped the ears of their heart that they do not hear For what hast thou that thou hast not received

01:42:27

They do not hear without me you can do nothing They do not hear

01:42:34

Love is of god They do not hear God hath dealt the measure of faith

01:42:41

They do not hear the spirit breatheth where it will And they who are led by the spirit of god

01:42:51

They are the sons of god They do not hear No one can come unto me

01:42:56

Unless it were given of him by my father Then there is a continuing continuation with lengthy old testament quotations as well

01:43:08

That's it that's it so The assertion that wilson makes first of all is that these are quote unquote out of context

01:43:21

Well if what he means by that Which is a strange way of putting it is that he did not quote five verses on each side

01:43:31

Okay But actually all of these are quite relevant To what they will not hear for so for example for what for what do you have that you have not received?

01:43:43

How is that not relevant The assumption on paul's part there in that citation

01:43:49

Is that everything does come from god? And that god is prior to any of the human action the pelagian would say

01:43:56

I have my good deeds, which I did not receive they were Something that I could do as a natural aspect of Who I am as a human creature so that is relevant.

01:44:08

That's not a that's not out of context They do not hear without me you can do nothing that's what jesus said the disciples

01:44:17

I realize that's offensive to a pelagian Seems to be offensive dr. Wilson too, but that doesn't mean it's out of context

01:44:24

It is speaking to jesus's primacy In the production of good works by the disciples.

01:44:31

Is it not vine branches? They do not hear love is of god

01:44:38

It's origin is in god itself himself, sorry about that They're not here god has dealt the measure of faith really

01:44:53

Is that not something that each individual person apart from prevenient grace is able to practice and produce his faith?

01:45:02

They do not hear the spirit breatheth where it will i'm wondering if that's

01:45:09

Sort of a latin translation from john 3 um in regards to jesus and Nicodemus probably

01:45:18

But the point is it's the spirit that chooses this not not us um

01:45:25

And they who are led by the spirit of god. These are the sons of god this

01:45:33

I you know, maybe you could make an argument with that one Maybe you can make an argument that In romans 8 that's specifically talking about The spirit leads the sons of god and this demonstrates that they are

01:45:52

Not necessarily that that was I mean in all of romans 8 though. It's still completely the sovereignty of god from romans 8 1 onward um, but It's at least in a relevant passage

01:46:08

And then here my friends here my friends is a reversion

01:46:18

Back to fortune nottice's manichaean interpretation of john 6 65 They do not hear no one can come unto me unless it were given him of my father so um

01:46:38

Where's where's the connection to Um fortunatus

01:46:45

There's no there's no reference well my let me let me try to give dr.

01:46:52

Wilson the Biggest benefit of the doubt that I can let me see if I can try to find some way to make this work um fortunatus

01:47:08

Quoted john 6 65 elsewhere Didn't give an interpretation or an exegesis but quoted it

01:47:18

And so any time that augustine Quotes john 6 65.

01:47:24

That's where he got it because augustine never had Any Meaningful exegetical

01:47:36

Interaction with the text of scripture. He's just he's just He's just he's stuck borrowing from everyone else basically, um, and so There's no interpretation of john 6 65 given it

01:47:54

It's it's put in to a series of citations That all say the same thing

01:48:01

And that is we are dependent upon grace So if if I just look at the greek of john 6 65 and it says

01:48:12

No one can come unto me And I take that seriously

01:48:21

In the context of john 6 as we've done on this program literally

01:48:27

I wonder if we've done at least minimally 12 hours On on that passage minimally

01:48:36

If I take that Does that mean that? Even though i'm reading it in the original language and augustine wasn't

01:48:46

Does that mean I am have somehow been forced

01:48:52

To read it in light of a manichaean hermeneutic

01:48:58

Where where is this? Where is this manichaean hermeneutic? What? He doesn't interpret it other than to place it with other verses

01:49:10

That say that god's grace comes before That god's grace is primary.

01:49:18

I was really bummed because Notice he reverts so I think his argument would be that In his earlier years

01:49:33

He would have agreed with the pelagians on this but once he engages the pelagians now he's reverting

01:49:40

There can be there is no possibility that augustine studied these things and and saw consistent teachings in scripture or Had all these verses and said, you know all these verses are saying the same thing and they're talking about the primacy of god's grace and You know, no

01:50:02

He's reverting To an interpretation that he evidently seemingly would have known as a manichaean hearer

01:50:14

And so he reverts To fortunatus's manichaean interpretation of john 665 because that's the only thing he could possibly know.

01:50:22

He couldn't have known anything else That's that's the assertion being made I was really just playing because I was really hoping to see

01:50:29

Specifically something that's identifiably manichaean But there's nothing there

01:50:38

And when I quote john 665 there's nothing to do with manichaeism when I quote it or john 644

01:50:46

Um That worldview is as far from my interpretation as possibly could be.

01:50:54

So why does it have to be behind augustine's? Becomes the question becomes the question um

01:51:05

Still got uh, I can get through a few more of these here. I said spend hours on this. Um and hope to get spend more but Things to do um by 420 ce

01:51:19

He there's augustine no longer tries to salvage a remnant of free will do you see the prejudicial language?

01:51:28

It's it's every single it's almost every single sentence the move that he makes reverting um

01:51:37

Tries to salvage he no longer tries to salvage a remnant of free will Augustine accepts that he has supplanted the centuries -old doctrine of free choice with a non -free free will demanding discriminatory grace well, let's 4 .16

01:51:57

augustine actual But wherefore does god make these men sheep and those not

01:52:06

Since with him there is no acceptance of persons now, by the way, this happens to be a rather important question

01:52:12

Why are some people christ's sheep and others are not? Especially since god says i'm not a respecter of persons.

01:52:20

So it's not Because one is better than the other This is the very question which the blessed apostle thus answers to those who propose it with more curiosity than propriety

01:52:33

Oh man Who are you that replies against god does the thing form say to him that formed it wherefore hast thou made me thus?

01:52:43

so augustine answers the question by saying

01:52:50

That's god's choice He goes romans 9 This is the very question which belongs to that depth

01:52:59

Desiring to look into which the same apostle was in a certain measure terrified and exclaimed

01:53:04

Oh the depth of the riches the wisdom and the knowledge of god how unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out

01:53:10

For who has known the mind of the lord and who has been his counselor? Or who or who has first given to him that it should be recompensed to him again?

01:53:18

Because of him and through him and in him are all things to him be the glory for ages of ages

01:53:24

Very plainly what we're hearing here Is what we read?

01:53:30

in the institutes last week this is exactly what calvin is saying

01:53:37

And are we just so so stop for just a moment That's exactly what calvin's saying.

01:53:44

Ah, see there's the connection How Could a manichaean?

01:53:52

Remember the manichaeans remember what they believed remember Full dualism dualism kingdom of light kingdom of darkness equal and eternal the king of light

01:54:06

Does nothing until attacked then emanates things that go and do things

01:54:12

No divine decree. No providence. No self -revelation. No self -glorification

01:54:18

None of these things There is no such thing as manichaean grace as a divine power from the creator god nothing

01:54:34

Show me from manichaean sources Manichaean grace in this sense.

01:54:41

Oh, I know that once manichaeism comes into the west And adopts christian language try express itself

01:54:52

You can come up with something there, but it's not going to be founded In the actual worldview of the religion

01:55:01

It's going to have to redefine everything so the grace

01:55:07

That we're talking about. This is the grace That paul is talking about This is the grace this is the doctrine that Calvin warns augustine warns

01:55:22

We need to approach it with tremendous respect We need to be circumspect as to how we demand of god questions to such answers to such questions so Let them not then dare to pry into that unsearchable question who defend merit before grace and therefore even against grace

01:55:47

And which first to give unto god that it may be given to them again First of course to give something of free will that grace may be given them again as a reward

01:55:58

And let them wisely understand or faithfully believe that even what they think that they have first given

01:56:06

They have received from him From whom are all things by whom are all things in whom are all things

01:56:15

But why this man should receive And that should not receive when neither of them deserves to receive

01:56:24

And whichever of them receives research receives undeservingly Let them measure their own strength and not search into things too strong for them

01:56:35

Let it suffice them to know that there is no unrighteousness with god For when the apostle could find no merits for which jacob should take precedence of his twin brother with god

01:56:46

He said what then shall we say? Is there unrighteousness with god away with the thought for he says to moses

01:56:52

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will show compassion whom I will show compassion Therefore it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth but of god that showeth mercy back to romans 9

01:57:06

Let therefore his free compassion be grateful to us Even although his profound question be still unsolved which nevertheless is so far solved as the same apostle solves it saying but if god

01:57:22

Willing to show his wrath and to demonstrate his power endured in much patience the vessels of wrath

01:57:27

Which are fitted to destruction and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he prepared for glory

01:57:35

Certainly wrath is not repaid unless it is due Lest there be unrighteousness with god

01:57:41

But mercy even when it is bestowed and not due Is not unrighteousness with god

01:57:49

And hence let the vessels of mercy understand how freely mercy is afforded to them

01:57:54

Because to the vessels of wrath with whom they have common cause and measure of perdition is repaid wrath righteous and due

01:58:04

This is now enough in opposition to those who by freedom of will desire to destroy the liberality of grace that's

01:58:17

So So what did wilson how did wilson hear those words?

01:58:23

You and I hear those words and we go We're reading paul Because a lot of it was that's romans 9

01:58:30

We're we're we're reading calvin most definitely We're reading spurgeon we're reading all the reformed divines but What wilson hears augustine accepts?

01:58:45

That he has supplanted The centuries old doctrine of free choice with a non -free free will demanding discriminatory grace well

01:58:58

He didn't say anything about a centuries old doctrine of free choice He made no reference to it at least in the reference given this is 4 .16

01:59:10

and The fundamental assumption of wilson's interaction with anything

01:59:20

Is that you cannot have? What romans 9 says? You can't have it

01:59:27

It's just not a possibility there can be no compatibilism there can be no divine decree

01:59:34

Romans 9 doesn't say what romans 9 says You have to put all that stuff aside and the real source

01:59:42

The real source is manichaeism Neoplatonism stoicism whatever fits or whatever doesn't fit

01:59:51

That's what you've got to come up with. That's what you got to put in there So I think

01:59:56

I have I have a couple more wilson Augustine actuals

02:00:02

John 644 comes up in the next one, too. So I will mark my spot here so that We will

02:00:17

Know where to go as I said on Thursday We will have a guest host filling in brand new

02:00:24

I'll let rich take care of introductions and stuff like that at that point in time Um, very thankful that he's willing to do that Uh, so I can pretty much guarantee you

02:00:34

There will be nothing about ken wilson on thursday And for some of you you're going yay um, but uh, but we'll be back next week lord willing what well it

02:00:58

It covers up my phone anyways, um Obviously rich and others have been um playing in the background, uh, and now we have a round circular alpha and omega