July 11, 2016 Show with Rosaria Butterfield on “The Leftist Lesbian Professor Who Despised Christians… Then Became One!”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 11th day of July 2016.

And yes, I know I get very repetitive with this opening, but I am very excited about today's program.

I have been trying to arrange this program for probably a year now and finally, by God's providence, we have on the program for the very first time ever,

Rosaria Champagne Butterfield. Rosaria is a former tenured professor of English and women's studies at Syracuse University.

She converted to Christ in 1999 in what she describes as a train wreck.

Her memoir, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert, chronicles that difficult journey.

Rosaria is married to Kent, a Reformed Presbyterian pastor in North Carolina, and is a homeschool mother, author, and speaker.

And today we are going to be discussing the very controversial theme, the leftist lesbian professor who despised

Christians, then somehow became one. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time,

Rosaria Champagne Butterfield. Well, thank you, that was quite an introduction,

I'm very happy to be with you today. And before we even go into the topic at hand, first of all, let me introduce you on air to my co -host, the

Reverend Buzz Taylor. Rosaria, it's very good to talk with you. Oh, good to talk with you, Buzz, as well, thank you.

And once again, now, the Presbyterians outnumber the Baptists on the program,

I happen to be a Reformed Baptist, and my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, is a Presbyterian, so we go back and forth with this, who outnumbers who.

I'm usually outnumbered, so I'm glad you're on today especially. Don't get used to it,

Buzz. Maybe by the end of the program, Chris will be a Presbyterian, who knows.

That is unlikely to happen. That will be definitely a mark of the apocalypse. An unlikely convert.

That's right. Well, before we even go into this very fascinating subject, if you could,

I would love for you to tell our listeners something about the First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham, North Carolina.

Oh, boy, you know, I get interviewed a lot, and I don't get asked that question nearly enough.

Well, my husband's a pastor. We seek to faithfully proclaim the

Gospel. We are committed to a worship that is centered in the

Word, because we know that is the only means by which, through the power of the Holy Spirit, anyone is saved.

We welcome visitors. We'd love for you to come visit us. Now, this might actually sound more like a

Baptist church right now than a Presbyterian church, but I'm going to say it anyway. We have a fellowship meal every week, and the food is really good, so we might convert you after all.

We did that, too. Every week? My church in Maine, yes. Oh, okay.

Yes. And we'd love for you to come visit us. Well, I would love to. I will definitely make it a point to try, because North Carolina is near and dear to my heart, because, not that this interview is going to be about me, and I don't want to go on too big of a detour, but I, years ago, after experiencing 18 years of sobriety after my conversion to Christ, I unfortunately lapsed into the sin of unrepentant drunkenness, and I went to North Carolina, to Boone, North Carolina, to a wonderful ministry there called

Hebron Colony Ministries. Oh, wonderful. And I spent three months there, and have not been interested in touching a drop of alcohol ever since I emerged from there.

And obviously, this is not in any way a dig against my brethren in Christ who responsibly enjoy a liberty to drink moderately.

I just personally cannot go near it. But anyway, I have fallen in love with your state, though, as a result of that.

Good. And I plan to return there. They have invited me to return there, this time as a speaker, not as a student there or a resident.

And hopefully, that will happen, and I will be able to pass through Durham. Wonderful. Really good.

Stop by. And the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, it is known as the Covenanters, correct?

And they are exclusive psalm singers and acapella music. And one thing that our listeners may be interested to know is that the

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America was one of the very first Christian denominations in the

South, if not the first, to oppose slavery. That is absolutely right.

So that's just one of the major contributions to not only the body of Christ that this denomination has made, but the church at large, and in fact, the country, for that matter.

Yes. Well, you were, before becoming someone who was involved in lesbian or homosexual activity, you were raised in a nominal or liberal

Catholic church, were you not? I was. I mean, both of my parents were excommunicated

Catholics. Really? Yes, they really were. And I went to a Catholic church almost exclusively—there was a year or two that I was public schooled—but

I primarily went to liberal Catholic churches, in part because my parents, you know, again,

I see this looking back as God's providence, they really wanted me to have some kind of Christian foundation, although they were very quick to caution me against believing it.

So my dad would drop me off at school and he would say, honey, you know, obey the nuns, they're scary, don't do anything that might cause them to wrap you over the knuckles, but you don't have to believe everything they say.

So I was raised by progressives, but yet at the same time,

I was raised in a liberal Catholic environment as well. Now, when you say that your parents were excommunicated, were they formally excommunicated?

Yes, they really were. They were both excommunicated. Because that hardly ever happens unless somebody is incredibly famous or infamous.

Right, right. No, no, no, that was just part of our history. That's interesting because, you know,

I know a lot of Roman Catholics who live any way they choose to and they have never been excommunicated.

That's interesting. So, in this background of upbringing, how did you eventually come to get to know women who were involved in lesbian or homosexual activity and what endeared your heart to them and drew you toward them, etc.?

Right. Well, you know, I don't think it was the environment that drew my heart.

I would say that ever since I was pretty little, I would have considered myself somebody who just was drawn to the company of women.

And I think that, you know, original sin makes this case pretty well, that homosexuality, at least according to Romans 1, is the ethical outworking of original sin for some of us, you know, not for everyone.

Others have, as you said to the program, alcoholism. Others have other, you know, just vulnerabilities that, if left unmanaged by the gospel, will just run amok.

So, you know, I don't know. It wasn't that something strange happened.

I just was living my life and I was just living it in a way that allowed for little to no understanding, really, that there would be, indeed, a time in my life when

I would look back on my life and say, wow, you know, I was like a beast before you. So I thought everything was fine.

And, you know, in my 20s, I dated men and the whole time

I was dating men, I was falling in love with women. And so by the time I came out as a lesbian at 28,

I really didn't have a moral crisis over this. I mean, someone else might have, but, you know,

I felt like life finally came together for me and made sense. And it's interesting that you described it as a product of original sin.

There are many evangelicals and conservative Christians and fundamentalists who will say that there's no way that someone could be born with a homosexual proclivity.

But then I started to hear from some Reformed brethren who started to put a little bit of a more of a complicated factor into the mix.

They would say, wait a minute, if we believe in total depravity, why would we necessarily rule that sin out as a proclivity that a sinner could be born with?

Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's a really key thing. And I think one of the things that's really dividing

Christians right now is what original sin really means. You know, from a

Catholic and an Anglican perspective, original sin means that you have been distorted, almost like being born deaf or being born, you know, without an arm.

It's a natural problem, but from a Reformed perspective, following Augustine and taking us right to the heart of Romans, we know that original sin actually means that we are born guilty and corrupt.

Amen. And there's a big difference. You know, there's a huge chasm between admitting a sin, you know, and really perceiving yourself to be a victim of it, and confessing a sin and owning it as yours.

And you know, it's very hard. We need to do that, whether it feels like sin or not.

I mean, I talk to a lot of people who struggle with unchosen homosexual desire, and to a one, people will say to me what is in my heart to understand,

I didn't do this. But how could this be sin when it feels so good?

And I don't mean this to be, you know, to be crass, but quite frankly, if your sin doesn't feel good, you're probably not doing it right.

Right. There's a glitch there in what you're thinking, and obviously as we grow in sanctification, there's a war, there's an actual war in our spirit that feels like we're being torn apart by wild horses.

But once a sin becomes an indwelling sin, you bet it feels good, and it's the

Gospel and the Gospel alone that allows you to stand against that in a way that does not fill you with shame and self -hatred.

And by the way, I want to give our listeners our email address if you would like to join us on the air with a question for Rosaria Champagne Butterfield.

In fact, that actually sounds like a brand of champagne, Rosaria Butterfield Champagne, or Butterfield Wineries.

But if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, you can email it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

That's ChrisArnzen, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please include at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

But we understand with a topic like this, there may be many of you who would choose to remain anonymous, and we will respect your wishes.

Just make sure you identify yourself that way in your email so I will know.

Actually, you just don't need to put your name in there, and so I'll be forced to keep you anonymous.

But the email address again is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Now, you had heterosexual involvement, as you were saying, dating men, falling in love with men, but always had some kind of a gravitational pull towards the company of women.

When did you start to realize that it was more than just you like hanging out with women more than men?

Because in fact, I think that most often men do enjoy,

I'm talking about red -blooded American heterosexual men enjoy hanging out with men, and women enjoy hanging out with men more than the opposite sex.

I would say it was pretty early on, because even as I was dating men,

I was falling in love with women. I was always having, pretty consistently, just knowing that my friendships with women were just a little over the top, finding myself kind of obsessing about a particular woman.

At the time, I really didn't have a moral framework to really do anything but just sort of notice it, like one might notice,

I don't know, something else. It really happened pretty early, and then certainly in graduate school, in college and then graduate school, my feminist and LGBT rights community,

I was certainly in that kind of ethic that gave me words for what I felt, but even without the words, the feelings were still there.

And did this, I mean, you already stated that you came from a liberal background, did this trouble you as being something abnormal or wrong in any way?

No, it really didn't. And I think sometimes when I speak to, especially church groups, appropriately so, people want to know how did my family feel about me coming out as a lesbian, and I always have to explain that actually, my coming out as a lesbian was not challenging for my family.

I came from a progressive family, you know, their question was, you know, are you still going to get tenure? I mean, it wasn't...

Yeah, right. I mean, like that, but when I came out as a Christian, that was another story.

That was an offense, but no, I really lacked the checks and balances.

I lacked them both in my environment, but even maybe more importantly,

I just lacked them in my own conscience, and I think, you know, the

Bible really helps us understand this, you know? Yeah. I mean, it helps us understand everything, but, you know, sin really does deceive people, and to be deceived doesn't just mean to be wrong, you know, to be deceived is to be taken captive by an evil will to do its force.

And once, you know, once you start on that path, once a particular sin becomes an entitlement, an identity, and an indwelling sin, it's really deep in there.

It's really deep in there. So I didn't have either the internal moral conscience to respond to this, nor did

I have the external trapping of a community that might have any opposition to it either.

So I just lived pretty easily into my life as a lesbian, and I never have called it a lifestyle.

I've never thought it was a lifestyle. To me, lifestyle is like hairstyle, you know? It's pretty vulnerable.

It changes. That was a life, and I felt very sincerely that that was not only a life, but that that was a good life.

I felt strongly that gay is good. I felt strongly, you know, that Rousseau was right, doing what is right in your own eyes as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else is a good thing.

I deeply did not understand why Christians would not leave consenting adults alone, and I even authored papers on the morality of gay and lesbian lives.

And so for me, coming to Christ really was losing a life, not changing a lifestyle.

Well, it's interesting you brought up papers, because your testimony is, I think it should be a lot more, maybe it's a lot more common than I think, but I found it interesting that you were reading the

Bible for other purposes, and then you started to realize from the Word as it did its job, if you will, the

Holy Spirit using the reading of the Word convicted you of your sin, and could you tell us a little bit about that journey?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was, after tenure, you know, which is a big deal, right, you're tenured and then you're there for life, then you can do what you want, so to speak, professors still work very hard, but after tenure,

I embarked on a book project where I was looking at the religious right from a lesbian feminist point of view, and my purpose was to critique the religious right, and specifically, because I'm an

English professor by training, I needed to read the Bible in order to do that, and I embarked on this project of reading the

Bible in order to trash it and teach everybody else what was wrong with it as a guide to a safe life.

Now, in the process of doing that, I wrote a little op -ed piece in the

Syracuse Post Standard, and it was in protest of the Promise Keepers, the

Christian men's movement gathering at the University, and received a lot of mail about that, you know, a lot of hate mail, a lot of fan mail, but one letter that I received was from Pastor Ken Smith.

He was the pastor of the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church, and it was simply the kindest letter of opposition that I had ever received.

And it struck me, because I'm a very good manipulator, that in fact, this might be my new unpaid research assistant for this book.

Ken knew the Bible, he loved the Bible, he wanted to meet with me, he wanted to talk with me. I was afraid he was going to evangelize me and would do things like invite me to church and share the

Gospel, so I thought I'd better keep him on topic, you know? But in fact,

I was delighted to meet with Ken, because quite frankly, I was a very good user. And so Ken, in his letter, invited me to, you know, to meet with him about this, and I thought about it for a week, and called him up and said, okay, let's start reading the

Bible together, let's start talking about it. Wow. I was that confident that I was right.

And this really began to develop from engagement with an adversary you were suspicious of to a friendship.

Oh yeah, and actually, even from that first night, it was, Ken was disarming to me, and I think that is, if there's one thing that I would want unbelievers to know about a

Christian, that Christians are safe and disarming all at the same time, and those are the two things that I very much felt about Ken.

I didn't feel like he was using me or manipulating me. I felt like he was, you know, very respectful of the fact that I was not a blank slate.

You know, he didn't say, well, you know, Jesus is going to solve all of your problems. He didn't even know what my problems were, or what

I perceived them to be. So, and his wife, Floy, was delightful. I mean, if this was the stereotypical

Christian family, it didn't fit any of the boxes I had for it.

You know, Floy was very much a helper to Ken, and submitted in those helper ways, but boy, she was smart, and she was clearly, the way that she was his helper was, in fact, using her strength.

And so, nothing about Ken and Floy, you know, fit my box, and we developed a genuine friendship, a genuine friendship, so much so that we would meet weekly, and we would meet, we would talk about the

Bible, because I was doing this research project on it. We would meet sometimes at my home, and sometimes at Ken's home.

Ken safely met my friends in the LGBT community, and it was a very challenging time, because at this time,

I was reading the Bible, you know, the way kind of a glutton would look at a box of cookies or something.

I could be the chairperson of the over -reader's anonymous, you know.

I was reading it, and it was working in me, and it was really upsetting me in many ways, upsetting my sense of self, upsetting my pre -sacrifices, all of it.

And Ken was just hanging in there with me. Yeah, well, I actually, when

I discovered the doctrines of sovereign grace, or Reformed Theology as an Arminian Christian, was getting angrier and angrier when

I was discovering truths about the Bible that I did not know were there, and that I initially didn't like at all.

In fact, I initially did. In fact, I went from not believing in the doctrines of grace to acquiescing regretfully that they were true, but hating it, then to loving those teachings.

And so, how long was the progression with you, when you're reading the

Bible, going from anger to fascination to actually love of what you were reading?

Right, right, right, right. It was at least a three -year process. I mean, it took two years just reading the

Bible over and over again before I would even step foot in the church. And then, it was about another, you know, six months before I just, there was no place else to go but forward.

You know, and part of what was so scary to me at this time was, it's, you know, and Ken was so good at this, too.

You know, Ken never looked at me and said, Wow, you know, here's this famous lesbian activist.

Boy, being a lesbian is the biggest sin in our life. You know, Ken just didn't believe that. He knew that being an unbeliever was the biggest sin in my life.

So, it was very helpful, because even, you know, as I'm reading the Bible, and as the

Lord is really convicting me of sin, I was convicted that I was in sin, but my feelings did not change immediately.

It wasn't as though the conviction of sin meant that I no longer had unholy sexual desires for women.

And I really think that only Reformed theology can help somebody understand how that can be.

And so, I was very, very blessed, and in fact, I sometimes, I'm not really prone to nightmares, but when

I am given to fear or panic, it's about this.

Oh, Lord, how good you were. How good you are. That when

I was going through literally an identity implosion, it was 1999, and I was doing this under the loving care of a solid

Reformed pastor. How grateful I am that it wasn't 2016 when

I might have been told, well, you're just a gay Christian, and here are your options, here are your options, you know, but this is just, this is who you are.

We all know this is who you are. We all know sexual orientation can never change, and now we just have to work with this.

I'm so grateful that I can't even imagine how hard it would be for people in my position today, with the culture and the

Church just losing all kinds of Gospel ground.

And it's painful to watch. Yeah, not only the world, but the

Church at large. Christendom has changed so much in that very short span of time.

Absolutely, and it's frightening to me as a writer and a speaker to see the way

Satan has had a foothold now, not only in culture, but also in Christian publishing, in Christian education, and, you know, part of this was inevitable after the

Obergefell decision that declared same -sex marriage constitutionally legal in all states.

It was, you know, the Gospel has been on a collision course with the culture since June of 2015, and that might be a little off the topic of what you want to talk about.

No, I want you to go in any direction you feel led, because your testimony is more than just the lesbian aspect of your past.

You were also a political leftist in many ways. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it wasn't just...

You're right. I mean, this could have been the story of someone who just had deep and abiding same -sex feelings for whom the

Lord, you know, delivered grace and a bounty of Gospel conviction, who now, years later, married a man and has children and lived happily ever after.

That's not my... I mean, that's just not the story. My story was that I was an activist. I co -wrote the first domestic partnership policy at Syracuse University, which is the blueprint for gay marriage.

Wow. Now, I never believed that I wanted to be married, you know, because that kind of takes the fun,

I would say, out of being gay. You know, I mean, really, I would just... I said that, you know, why add good people to a sick institution?

But I certainly knew that it would be very, very useful for the movement. Yeah, I can even remember,

I can see how even the rhetoric of homosexual activism has changed radically since, like, the 80s and so on, because I can remember clearly seeing homosexual activists on Phil Donahue and other places that they didn't want marriage.

Why do we need a Christian or religious ceremony to justify what we do and that kind of thing?

Right, right, right, absolutely. So there's a, you know, there's just a lot at stake here, that whenever a culture changes the language, it changes the logic.

And this kind of gets off of... The book, Secret Thoughts, really does chronicle my conversion and just the internal turmoil, really, of what repentance of a sin of identity really means, and what it means to learn that repentance is the threshold to God.

But the book that I wrote after that, Openness Unhindered, is the one where I talk a little bit more about culture and theology, which gets into some of the present issues today of, okay, now that the

Gospel is on a collision course with this category of sexual orientation, what does the Church do about it?

And what is sexual orientation, anyway? Is it really a category of personhood?

I mean, is there really such a thing as a gay person? Excellent, excellent. Yeah, and I will tell you that in my own life,

I mean, that was a struggle. That was a struggle early on. Before we go to the break, you were going to say, or what?

Because we have to go to a break right now, but I don't want to cut you in mid -sentence. You said, is it an orientation or an identity?

Or is it a category mistake? Excellent.

Well, we're going to be right back after these messages, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Rosaria Champagne -Butterfield about her testimony of having been a leftist lesbian professor who despised

Christians and yet somehow became one. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And we do already have several people anxiously waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you.

And obviously, if any of you need to remain anonymous or feel more comfortable remaining anonymous, we will certainly respect your wishes.

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Lending faith, finances, and generosity. That's the Thrivent Story. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Rosaria Champagne Butterfield.

She is the wife of Pastor Kent Butterfield of the First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham, North Carolina.

And she is the author of several books, including her first, The Secret Thoughts of an

Unlikely Convert. At least I think that was the first you wrote when you became a Christian. Am I right?

Yes. Yes. That is not the first, but that is the first one I would want your listeners to read.

Right. And we want to thank Crown and Covenant Publishing for helping us arrange this interview.

Danielle, very sweet woman over there, has been trying very hard to get this arranged for almost a year now it seems.

And we finally, by God's good grace and mercy and providence, have gotten this arranged today.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Before I go to a couple of the listeners who are already waiting,

I wanted to just so we kind of get an idea of this transformation and the setting behind it when you became a

Christian. Were you a monogamous lesbian with a specific person that was your partner at this point in your life, or were you more promiscuous and having a free lifestyle in that regard?

Well, I certainly valued promiscuity. There's nothing in my moral framework that spoke against promiscuity, but I practiced what was fairly common for most of the folks in my lesbian community at the time, and that's serial monogamy.

And if you could kind of explain that. Yeah, that you know one partner at a time.

Right. And, you know, the longevity of most of, you know, my relationships for about five years.

And so back to the, you know, if what you value is sexual autonomy and freedom, then you have to, you know, you have to modify monogamy in some way.

Mm -hmm. And we do have a listener who actually I know, I'm sure she wouldn't mind me giving her full name.

She is a published author herself, quite a brilliant Christian woman, Latane C. Scott.

She is a former Mormon who came to Christ by God's mercy and grace, and is a

Bible -believing Christian and believes in the biblical gospel and God of the scriptures.

And I have had her on this program a number of times since we first launched in 2006, and I'm very happy to let our listeners know that you could go to her website if you ever want to find out more about her writings, latane .com,

that's L -A -T -A -Y -N -E dot com. But she asks, Rosaria, I've made a commitment to start inviting people who are involved in, quote -unquote, alternative lifestyles to my home.

Recently, I invited a family, long -time friends, that included a teenager who is, quote -unquote, transitioning from male to female.

I wanted to show the kind of love of a friend that welcomed you when you were a, quote -unquote, practicing lesbian.

But what is the best advice for showing acceptance of people in my home without seeming to advocate such choices?

Right. Oh, first of all, I just love Latane, and I wish, you know, she was actually asking the question.

No offense to you, but... Oh, you know Latane. Yeah, well, only as fellow published authors who have written to each other and pray for each other.

Oh, wow. So yeah, yeah, and I love what she does and her courage and her kindness.

And so, what I would say, and this is the last chapter of the book,

Openness Unhindered, that came out last year. I talked, you know, pretty intensely in that chapter on this.

Inviting people into your home is the best way, because we are now in a world where you cannot ask hard...

Well, let me put it this way. Where the best defense of the gospel is one where the strength of your relationship mirrors the intensity of the concern or question you have.

So the best way to prepare to live the gospel in front of people is not by making sneaky little in -rates in the culture by standing behind a placard at a gay pride march.

It's really not. It's by having your neighbors in your home and having an ongoing, genuine relationship with them where you know.

You know their allergy. You know their fears. You know what kind of, you know, when to help them by picking up their children at the bus stop.

You know how to return their lost dog to the back gate. You know that. And that context that you share the gospel.

Now let me say, it isn't one after the other. So it's not that, oh, I'm going to spend six months really getting to know these people, and then

I'm going to spring the gospel on them. No, no, no, no, no. If they're in your home, then they're going to be part of family devotions, because that's what you do after you have a meal.

You include them in prayer time. You include them in your need to bring

Jesus into the conversation. Not to, you know, grandstand, but because you need

Jesus to be part of this conversation. You make yourself a trusted friend, but you don't make, you're not sneaky about this.

You're transparent. Remembering that, you know, beautiful verse in Ephesians that you are to speak grace into the situation for the hearer.

You don't actually need to say every single thing you're thinking at that dinner gathering.

I mean, and really, let's just think about it. If we all go to church this Lord's Day, and we say everything that's on our mind about everybody there, how is that going to work for us?

I mean, I'll tell you, as the pastor's wife, that's not going to work very well. It's just not going to work very well.

So, you know, we can use the same, you know, moderation of speech with our neighbors who have much to lose.

And, you know, people who are struggling under the weight of a sexual sin or a sin of, you know, of other things that are just deep like that.

You know, there are a couple of things that we need to understand. We Christians, we need to understand that for the most part, you know, people don't choose that.

I've never met somebody who has chosen gender identity dysphoria. I've never met anybody.

I've met a lot of people in that camp, and I can't tell you one who chose it. And so, we need to be sympathetic.

You know, Dr. Paul McHugh likens gender identity to anorexia, and he says, you don't shame or mock your 16 -year -old daughter who is 80 pounds but thinks she's fat.

You just don't do that. You're sensitive. You understand that there is a real disconnect between what she believes to be true about herself and what is true.

Now, he goes on to say, and I really like this, he goes on to say, you know, and if any medical, you know, person recommended liposuction for your daughter, you'd take by the hand and run.

You know, that's quack. So, this whole idea of gender reassignment surgery is a, you know, it's a real dangerous opportunity to dangle in front of somebody who is so deeply struggling.

Well, the thing that's really tragic and infuriating and nauseating is that parents are encouraging little children to pursue these routes.

Well, part of why that is, you know, there are three different narratives that help us understand gender identity disorder.

One is the narrative of integration. That's what the church values. It really comes out of Genesis 126, and it just basically means that being born male or female has ethical and moral responsibilities and constraints, even when it's hard.

And then there's the disability model, and I think that's the one that's more commonly seen, you know,

I think, in more liberal churches at this point, and that is that you can't help yourself.

It's okay if you come in here cross -dressing. You know, it's okay. We're going to love you just right where you are.

Because you can't help yourself, gender dysphoria is like a disability, and if there's no moral issue, you're good to go.

We're going to love you right where you are. And then there is the diversity model, and that says that gender identity disorder is not a disorder at all.

It is, in fact, the truest form of liberation, where we see that gender and sexuality as social constructs simply allow for anything to go.

So many of these parents are highly influenced by that latter narrative that I think we see steeped in the

American Medical Association right now. But you know, we need to get back to the Bible, because Romans 1 makes it very clear that if you cannot get a blessing from man, you will demand it from God.

And I remember what that's like, because you know what? No matter what kind of a blessing you get from man, it's not enough, because it doesn't fill that void, because eternity is written on the hearts of every image -bearer, including

Latane's neighbor's son. Every single human being has eternity written on our hearts, and an essential form of sex designation, too.

So yes, open your arms and open your doors regularly and widely.

Hmm. Well, Latane, I've got a surprise for you. You are going to receive a free copy of The Secret Thoughts of an

Unlikely Convert, and even though you already seem to have a friendship with our guest and may even have that book already, we want you to give it to someone that you think needs it.

Obviously, you are someone who will definitely use this, even if you already have it.

And guess what, Latane, since you are so actively involved in this type of evangelism, we're also going to throw in Open Mind, Openness Unhindered, the second book as a

Christian author by Rosaria Champagne Butterfield. That's Openness Unhindered, and we hope that this is a blessing to you and also an enhancement to your evangelism activities.

And guess what? We're also throwing in a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible, because we want all of our listeners who win Rosaria's book today, when they evangelize those involved in homosexual activity or any other kind of sinful activity, perhaps they're just lost individuals, we want you to give them a

Bible while you're doing it. So you're getting a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers, and we want to thank also, again,

Crown & Covenant for supplying us with these books that we are giving away today. And thank you so much,

Latane, and I believe I already have your mailing address, so I don't need to get that from you now.

And we do have a whole bunch of listeners waiting, even before they knew I was giving books away. One thing

I wanted to ask you, and this is a very sensitive issue, and some people might be upset that I'm even asking it, but when it comes to welcoming people into your home who are involved in homosexual activity, especially when they're very proud of it and maybe even cross -dressing or involved in transgenderism and so on, would you find fault with Christian families that want some kind of barriers between their little children, especially, and folks because perhaps they don't even want their children at certain ages to even start wondering about those issues?

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think that is definitely an individual family decision, and I believe that the head of the household needs to think through the implications and then make a decision.

And boundaries are a really good thing. You know, we've just come to a place, though, where I don't think we can shelter children from these issues.

So, I think it's a question not of, you know, if you're going to talk, but when and how.

And I think the danger is if parents don't take the front line in discussing these things, even homeschooled children are going to pick them up.

I speak at a lot of churches, and I have seen the looks on the faces of homeschooled moms and dads when their nine -year -old comes up to the microphone and asks me a question that shows that that child has a pretty sophisticated understanding of at least what the world believes to be true.

And one of the dangers is if you're not on the front line of that with your child, then your child is going to just grow up feeling like they're two, you know, divided languages.

There's the way I talk with my friends, and there's the way I talk to my parents. There's the way I engage with people maybe on Facebook, and there's the way

I engage people in my church. And we want to show our children that the Bible is vital and relevant for every single question and every single problem, and deeply this one.

Now, having said that, every single human being doesn't need to be doing this. You know the particular vulnerabilities in your family and the stresses in your family.

So you can certainly be having these conversations without inviting the neighbor who identifies as transgendered over, because you will have to explain why there's a man in a dress or why that person who looks like a woman has an

Adam's apple. You know, you simply have to explain those things. And if this is not a good time, then use the great evangelistic gift that God's given you to do something else.

And there's no one should feel shamed by that, and no one, you know, raising a godly family is a priceless testimony to the glory of God.

How would you feel about a Christian couple setting ground rules about open affection, physical affection, when you're inviting your...

I mean, you don't, you know, depending upon what kind of lifestyle,

I know that you hate that word, lifestyle, but what realm of activism they may be so in -your -face with their activity?

They may want to shock the family by... Yeah, I would be surprised.

I mean, I'm just trying to see how this would play out, you know? And I've been on the other side, right? I've been on the other side of this.

I just can't quite imagine open displays of sexual bonding taking place, you know, at the barbecue.

You know, it's just sort of inconceivable to me. I mean, you know, don't take your child to the gay pride march.

Please do not do that. Well, I didn't mean, obviously... In terms of just inviting your neighbors over,

I don't think it's a great idea to invite anybody over if you think that person is dangerous to your children.

So, I mean, if you have a concern, then don't, you know, listen to your gut on that.

Don't do it. But I would not say that your neighbors who identify as gay or lesbian are likely to, you know, to really engage.

I mean, I would be surprised. I was really referring to the same kind of activity that your typical heterosexual couple might be involved in public, in a company setting.

Like, for instance, sitting on each other's lap, holding each other's hands, you know, kissing each other on the cheek, you know, running fingers through the hair, you know, that kind of just normal.

Oh, yeah, but you guys have a livelier neighborhood. I'm talking about the front pew at church.

No, no, including the neighbors who identify as lesbian or gay. We have a bunch of old fogies here in the

South. No, it's too hot and sticky. Nobody does that. You know,

I think you need to be willing to take the risk, and then you need to be willing to manage the risk if it fails.

So, you know your family. You know what the range is there.

By no means should you be putting your children at risk or putting yourself or your spouse in an uncomfortable position.

But, as I said, we're just a bunch of old fogies here in North Carolina, and my neighbors who identify as lesbian or gay, that just wouldn't happen.

So, that has not been a concern. Obviously, when you're me, though, you know, we read through the

Bible as a family. So, my children have known from before they knew what it meant that their mother used to be an atheist, and their mother used to be a lesbian.

So, you know, when things started to spill out, like 2013, the DOMA decision, or 2015, the

Obergefell decision, it wasn't as if we had to sit them down and say, okay, you know, there's this deep, dark secret that nobody ever heard of.

And the reason we didn't have to do that is because we read through the Bible as a family. And every sin and every grace under the earth is there for us to behold.

And we know that when we deal differently with God, God deals differently with us. And so, these are all things that have just been part of the family narrative that my children have cut their teeth on.

So, in some ways, I'm probably not the best person to ask, because the rest of you have more normal lives.

But it's good when you're reading the Bible to remember that the sins that you think are just so appalling or the sins that you can't imagine captivating the heart of anyone might be captivating the heart of your beloved son.

And so, to be mindful that the problem is sin, not people.

People are really not our problem. People are image bearers of a holy God. The problem is sin, and the deceptiveness of sin makes people partner with Satan in ways that are very dangerous.

But it's not people who are the problem. And I think for too long, many, many people raised in a church who struggle with same sex attraction, the only time they ever heard anything mentioned about the struggle they were feeling was when the pastor from the pulpit talked about reprobates, or talked about the gay agenda, or basically talked about homosexuality as if, you know, people of God, this is other people's problems.

And that's really... Can you imagine how painful that would be? To be truly a faithful son, but you've noticed that you are way different than everybody else, and the only time the difference that you are struggling with all by yourself, the only time that difference is mentioned is in a way that implies that no

Christian would ever deal with it. Well, Christians deal with every sin under the sun, but in Jesus Christ, we are no longer in bondage to that sin, although I'm sure, you know, if you're like me, that sin still knows your name and address.

But when we talk about having union with Christ, when we talk about dying with Christ and rising with Him, we understand that that means that that union with Christ is eternal, that it's consistent, that it is ever -present, that we will never lose it, and that, you know, it's unbreakable, it's irreplaceable, and we also know that we will grow in sanctification, but we need our brothers and sisters to help us, to talk to us, to pray with us, and then

I think we also need to understand that people who struggle with unchosen, same -sex attraction, people who struggle with this in a really consistent way over decades and decades of life, are also going to be struggling with other things, like crushing loneliness, or what it means to have hopes and dreams never realized until the

New Jerusalem. And so I think it's really important that we speak very firmly about sin, because sin is our enemy, but at the same time, we speak very powerfully that people are not our enemy, and you, brothers and sisters, even the people who are listening right now, you are struggling with homosexual desires, unchosen, but you are struggling in God's way.

You are driving a fresh nail into those desires every day. But I want you to hear from me that I think you're a hero of the faith, and I would love for your church community to see that as well.

People need help in doing battle against their sin, but if we're telling people that, you know, commit your life to Jesus and you never struggle with sin, we're preaching a false gospel.

And as far as those struggling with those sins being in the very pews that we are sitting in, let us not forget those words by the

Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 6, where he says, Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God. That also reminds us that when we start to view homosexuals as being those that are beyond any hope, how many of us can say that we don't belong in those other categories of covetousness?

I mean, that would mean really all of us, and I personally was a drunkard, and there are, and of course,

I've stolen things. In fact, when Buzz came in, he might want to check for his wallet, because I haven't now, but this is something that we should not only view as something that's out there on another planet that doesn't involve us in our own churches, as you were just saying.

We have to go to another break right now. If you would like to join us on the air, and we still have a number of you waiting patiently, at least

I hope you're waiting patiently, we're going to be right back after these messages with Rosaria Champagne -Butterfield, and if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we will get to those already waiting as soon as we return from the break.

So we'll be right back. Don't go away. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is

Rosaria Champagne Butterfield. We are discussing her book, The Secret Thoughts of an

Unlikely Convert. She is a former lesbian who converted to Christianity and was saved by the blood of Christ, by his grace and mercy.

And we are so delighted to have her on this program. And our email address for those of you wanting to join us on the air is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Before I return to our discussion, two of our sponsors are having events that we want to inform you about.

Christ Presbyterian Church, a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, Utah, is having a conference, a four -day conference, starting this

Friday on the theme, Who is Jesus Christ? Featuring my very dear friend of nearly 30 years,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. And during this four -day conference, he is going to be having a dialogue with a

Mormon, and that theme is going to be on,

Is the Jesus of Mormonism the Jesus of the Bible? That Mormon happens to be Mr.

Alma Alred, an instructor at the LDS Institute of Religion at the University of Utah.

And then the following day, Dr. White will be having a dialogue on the theme,

Who is Jesus? With an Islamic leader in that area.

And that's going to be held at the Islamic Center in Sandy, Utah. And there are also other speaking engagements during this conference, including one on the

Forgotten Trinity, which is a book near and dear to my own heart, because Dr. White actually dedicated that book to me.

So I will forever treasure that book. And if you need more information, in fact, one of the themes actually deals a lot with what we're discussing today,

Proclaiming Jesus Christ in a Hostile Culture. Proclaiming Jesus Christ in a Hostile Culture is one of the subjects at this conference.

If you want more information about this conference, call 801 -969 -7948, 801 -969 -7948.

And you can also go to the website gospelutah .org, gospelutah .org,

and you can also email jasonopc, for Orthodox Presbyterian Church, jasonopc at aol .com.

And by the way, Dr. White also wrote a book that is involved with our topic today called The Same -Sex

Controversy, so you might want to find out about that book at aomin .org, a -o -m -i -n .org.

And also, one of our sponsors, the Fellowship Conference New England, wants to let you know about their event coming up August 4th through the 6th in Reverend Buzz Taylor's Old Stomping Grounds, Portland, Maine.

And that's going to be held at the Deering Center Community Church, and it's on the theme The Impossible. And this is another way that this ties in with our subject today, because many people think it is absolutely impossible for someone involved in a homosexual activity or with a proclivity towards homosexuality to actually be transformed and wrest that sexual appetite or activity behind them.

Some people think that is absolutely impossible, and it actually is, without God. And with God, all things are possible.

And that website is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

And we want to thank our friend Pastor Mac Tomlinson for his sponsorship of this program.

He is one of the speakers at this Fellowship Conference New England, so we hope that you can attend that.

And we do have some listeners who have—go ahead, I'm sorry. I'm sorry,

Rosaria, were you going to say something? No, I'm sorry. Okay. No, no, no. I'm just taking a little sip of coffee here.

Okay, and I'm doing the same. Okay. And we have Seth in Randleman, North Carolina, who writes,

I first heard Rosaria speak on Wretched Radio—and Todd Friel has been on this program several times as well—he played an excerpt from her

Ligonier Ministries speech. It was eye -opening, to say the least. What other recommendations would she give as far as witnessing goes to an open homosexual male?

We've shared the gospel with him, had him over dinner multiple times, gave him books, but mostly just sought to show him we care.

He is family and want to continue to do those things listed above, but what else, if anything, would she recommend?

Yeah, oh, what a good question, and I'm just so glad. It warms my heart when I hear

Christian saying, you know, I'm opening my home, I'm waiting. I'm going to recommend a book written by a dear friend of mine.

The book is called Out of a Far Country, and the authors are Christopher Yuan and Angela Yuan, and I think you might find

Angela's side of the story very powerful, because it talks about how she prayed for Christopher and what she prayed for.

You know, it sounds like you are praying for the right thing, and that is that God would intervene, and that this friend would see that there's something better.

There's something better than living out the life of the flesh, no matter how much the flesh craves things.

And, you know, we know that—I really know this from the Bible. We don't know this because we're smarter than anybody else.

We know that all sexual sin is predatory. It doesn't stop until it gets what it wants.

And so we can have even sympathy for what it would be like, because we ourselves have been enslaved to something.

We ourselves have made idols out of something that God hates. So, but I do think that book would be really encouraging, because the intensity and the intentionality of Angela's prayer life,

I think, really raises the bar for most of us. Well, Seth, in addition to the books that were just recommended to you by Rosaria, you're also getting

Rosaria's book, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. Thank you very much for writing in today, and thank you very much to Crown &

Covenant Publications for supplying those books for us. And we do also now have

Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan, who writes,

Our 16 -year -old niece has declared herself a lesbian recently. Her mother has been an ardent supporter of objectivism,

Ian Rand, and is ironically approving of her daughter's claim, and her father is emotionally absent and self -absorbed.

My wife and I are so pitifully ignorant as to how we should approach our niece and her mom.

We've shared the Gospel with them several years ago, but this is a new wrinkle.

God's continued strength and blessing to your ministry. Oh, thank you. You know,

I think it's very hard to respond to a problem that we don't really understand.

And so in the book, Openness Unhindered, I look at the origins of sexual orientation as a category of personhood.

And what I do in that book is I try to show that we're facing a world right now where a very demeaning understanding of what it means to be human is being bandied about.

You know, we know that ontologically or originally, all human beings are male and female image bearers of a holy

God with a soul that will last forever and a body that will inherit a new Jerusalem.

And we know that from Genesis 126 and 27. But in the 19th century, a new category of personhood really triumphed over a biblical one.

And that was Freud's understanding that what makes a person human is being able to act out sexually in whatever way pleases that person.

And then in 2015, the Obergefell decision turned that idol of sexual orientation that had been a 19th century category mistake and then very much a 20th century idol, it now became a civil rights category.

And so it's almost impossible for Christians to know how to deal with this as a civil rights category if, you know, because if we agree in our hearts, if in my heart

I believe my neighbor is really a lesbian, and what I mean by that, if I believe in my heart that this is truly ontologically who she is, that's very different from me saying

I have a neighbor who's an image -bearer of a holy God who struggles with this indwelling sin pattern. And you know, right now it's really vesting her, but she's still an image -bearer of a holy

God, and not for a minute am I going to believe that she's ontologically something that God called sin.

I won't accept that, because God tells me that he has made her in her image, and that we all know that we reflect that image with tarnish at different seasons.

So I think the first thing to do is to really hang on to what we call biblical ontology.

And to remember that five Supreme Court justices, unelected by the way, do not have the right to redefine personhood.

And we are fools of the highest order if we just, you know, nod and smile as they do that.

Not only are we fools, because that's foolish, but there are image -bearers of a holy

God, like your niece, who are lost in the worldview of this degradation.

You see, it's really degrading to call yourself a gay

Christian or a lesbian, and it's degrading because God has called you to be an image -bearer of a holy

God. So I would say, as you're sharing the Gospel, and as you're praying, and maybe the means of grace from the margins are all you can do right now, but as you're doing it faithfully, remember who this is.

This is an image -bearer of a holy God, and no matter how much her mother and how much she herself defends this category of personhood, it's simply not accurate.

You know, people don't realize that the real, you know, the biggest danger of gay marriage was not only that it redefined marriage, but that it redefined personhood alongside it.

So Christians must hang on to the truth in the same way that there are many other things in life, that we must apply faith to the facts.

And this is a great test of faith, for sure, and how important it is to make sure that your pastor and your elders are with you on their knees praying for you as you have opportunity to witness.

But certainly, you always have opportunity to pray. You don't need an opportunity to pray.

It's right there before you always. And again, I think that we're heading into a world where Christians are going to discover that prayer and fasting is necessary at a level that we just haven't seen before.

Hmm. And by the way, Jeff, you're also getting a free copy of The Secret Thoughts of an

Unlikely Convert by Rosaria Champagne Butterfield and a New American Standard Bible.

So keep your eye open in the mail for those. And we thank you so much for contributing to the show with a very personal and sensitive issue.

We have Erin in Indianapolis, Indiana, who asked the question,

I wondered if Rosaria could offer her best advice for Christians to prove their genuine, transparent love to best reconcile or eradicate feelings of hatred between Christians and LGBT.

That's a very interesting aspect. You've already answered to a degree some of what she's asking, but the hatred factor is real because we are human beings, even when we are born from above and are filled with the

Holy Spirit. We can struggle with feelings of hatred, especially because, as you were saying, this specific sin, the only rival

I think it has is the pro -abortion movement where... Yes, they're very connected.

Yes, where the sin has become a global movement and a political power.

Yes, that's right. And we who are Christians, in our frustration and in our anxiety, what may begin as righteous indignation can really morph into a hatred that we should not possess.

Right, right. But I might be misreading the question, but I don't think... I mean, I think you're right that we need to deal with hatred in our hearts.

I think the question is, what do we do collectively? Let me suggest that here's what we don't do collectively.

Some of you might have read what the editor of Christianity Today said, that we ought to, you know, if our, quote -unquote,

LGBT neighbor is having a wedding and wants us to bake a cake, why, we should bake two cakes.

And, you know, that is anti -gospel drivel of the most dangerous order.

Yes. So I would suggest, do not, do not weigh in collectively.

Every blog piece I've written, I'm sorry, every blog piece that I have read about the

Orlando shooting has dug Christians in deeper than what they intended.

If indeed, you know, as we see this world falling apart, and you have concerns about how your neighbor who identifies as Muslim feels, go and bring your neighbor a casserole.

If you have concerns about how your neighbor who identifies as lesbian feels, go and offer a cup of tea in friendship.

We need to work this out in a personal way. We need to stay off of social media, and certainly we must not engage it there.

Nothing real happens in a virtual world. Real is when neighbors come together and love one another, but I would be very, very cautious about some of the things that I'm hearing

Christians say are a collective good. Because if you, even unintentionally, throw the gospel under the bus, there is no hope.

You know, when people had asked me before why I didn't support gay marriage, I would just say, look, hey,

I am called to be a good neighbor. And good neighbors never throw a stumbling block between a fellow image -bearer and a holy

God. So I can't support gay marriage, but what about my neighbors who identify as lesbian who have gotten married?

What is my job to them? Well, my job to them is to be good neighbors, and that means that my household respects their household.

When we pick up their children at the bus stop, we know who's mom and who's mommy, because confusing a six -year -old in the name of, you know,

I don't know, political righteousness is really unhelpful. You know, so you've got to keep your lines clear.

But again, you can't share the gospel with the lost without getting close enough to get hurt.

So this is the moment to really move in in friendship with our neighbors.

Great. Well, thank you very much, Erin, and you are getting not only a free copy of Rosaria Butterfield's book,

The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert, but you're getting a new American Standard Bible free of charge as well.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with another question of your own, folks, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Yes, you were saying something that is sadly not heard too often.

It seems that the church, in wanting to distance ourselves from the lunatics with the

God hates fags group, and those types of people, they go too far in the other extreme and being politically correct in the way that we engage our neighbors who may be involved in that sin and candy coat what we say and do.

And I don't know how you feel about this, Rosaria, but I don't even like Christians, and I find myself doing this unintentionally from time to time, but we'll use phrases like the gay community.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm more comfortable with using the adjective gay to modify a community than I am using the adjective gay to modify a person, because I do think that there are some demarcations of community, such as civil rights legislation that might come out from that.

But I do think we need to be vigilant in defending the rights of image bearers of a holy

God to be just that. And if we accept the language of the new world order, that would suggest that, no, no, no,

Genesis 1, 26 and 27, that's just not accurate. Or if we believe, oh, you know,

I'm sorry, the gospel is just bad news for some people, then we need to get our own hearts in order and our own heads in order before we do anything else.

Because the gospel is the best news for everybody. You know, the gospel is the best news for some poor soul who just went through a sex change operation, because you know what?

In the new heaven and the new earth, there's no gender mutilation. So I think that we need to remember that, and I think we also need to remember that the blood of Christ does not just forgive us of our sins.

That's really important. But even in addition to that, we need to remember that the blood of Christ equips us to have victory over our sins.

The gospel comes with forgiveness and with power. Amen. We've been sharing a very wimpy gospel.

And that's our own discredit. Now, I'm getting back to what I mentioned before.

You got the gospel fairly direct because of your study of scripture. And I found it interesting how you described how you view the scriptures, that even just from the idea of a book being coherent.

And you got the story. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Well, yes.

You know, I wasn't raised in the evangelical church. And I think often people who are raised in the evangelical church read the

Bible the way that, you know, my unbelieving neighbors read their horoscopes.

You know, a verse a day in whatever order suits you. Right, right. And then they say, well, this

Bible just doesn't make any sense. It's just not logical. It's got these weird concepts, and I don't understand it.

But, you know, if you came to me and said, Rosaria, I'm trying to read Jane Eyre, and I just don't understand it. And I said, okay,

Chris, how are you reading it? And you say, well, you know, today I read chapter 36. And, you know, the day before I read chapter 42.

And maybe tomorrow I'll read chapter 1. I would say, well, that's just not how you read a book.

You know, I mean, it is a book after all. Yes. And the same is true for the Bible. So again, not having been raised in the church,

I wasn't really reading it to find a verse of affirmation to carry me through the day.

I was reading it to get a handle of what this book says. And so I would sit down and read the book of Genesis.

And you know, something crazy happens when you sit down and read the book of Genesis. God declares that curse in Genesis 3, and the world becomes a bloodbath very quickly.

But if you're only reading a verse a day, it seems kind of like a slow trickle. If you sat down and just read the book of Romans, I mean, it is just the incision of what a sinful nature could do to a life.

It's so commanding. I mean, you know, it's sort of like if you buy a house with a beautiful garden, and you just let that garden go.

You don't do anything to it. And the pests come, and the weeds come, and 10 years later, it's completely uninhabitable.

And you go to a master gardener, and you say, well, what's wrong with my garden? I did everything right.

I treated it with care. I let it do what it wanted. The master gardener would laugh at you and say, well, guess what, buddy?

It's the nature of a garden to have weeds. You did everything wrong by failing to deal with it.

And the book of Romans, it's so commanding. Rosaria, it's the nature of your nature to have sin.

By just doing what you want isn't going to get you any kind of blessing from God.

It just won't, because you come with it. Whether it's fair or not, you can take that up later, but you come with it.

And so it much happens when you actually sit down and read the Bible in big chunks. And I would say even as an unbeliever, it gives the

Holy Spirit a lot of time in your life. But right now, especially, I travel and I hear

Christians unable to explain that the Bible is justified in condemning sin and in warning people.

And I hear people say to me, but Rosaria, how can it be true if my neighbors who identify as lesbian are the nicest people on the block?

And if there are only really six verses that talk about it, how can this be a big deal?

And you know, it's not the fault of gay rights activists that Christians can't say, well look, the

Bible is like a tapestry. And if you go to a famous art museum and you snip out six threads from a famous tapestry, what happens to it?

Well, it falls apart. Every word in the

Bible is God -breathed. And so I think that again,

Christians need to take responsibility for the fact that we have failed to really apply biblical literacy and biblical fluency to the details of our day.

And it's really not the fault of gay rights activists that Christians are not reading their Bibles well.

Hmm. By the way, you said earlier that you didn't recommend or you were opposed to giving the same -sex wedding celebration a wedding cake.

How about if you write in icing 1 Corinthians 6, 8 through 11 on the top of it?

Well, I would say that, and this is in part because I know the bakers and I know the photographers, and these are dear brothers and sisters on the front line whose real lives and real livelihoods are at stake.

And they are faithful Christians. And I support the religious liberty protections that allow people to exercise conscience.

But here's what Christians need to remember. A wedding is not a birthday party. You know, can you go to your neighbor who identifies as a lesbian to her birthday party?

Well, if she invites you, yes. And bring a nice gift. Right. You know, you weren't raised in a barn.

Because, you know, what does a birthday party do? It celebrates life and Christians' love life.

Mm -hmm. But a wedding that attacks a creation ordinance because six unelected

Supreme Court justices says it's okay actually puts a millstone around the necks of people you love.

Right, because you are actually joining in the celebration of the world. You are. You are. And a couple of years ago,

I was speaking at a large church, and an older woman waited until the end of a long book signing. And she came up to me and she said,

Rosaria, I'm 76 years old. I have been married to my lesbian partner for 50 years.

We got married in Canada. We have children and grandchildren, and I have now heard the gospel, and I am going to lose everything.

Right? And I said, right. We are not more merciful than God.

Mm -hmm. And any law that is created because it somehow believes in its heart that God's law is discriminatory sets itself up to claim that it is more merciful than God.

Mm -hmm. May God protect us from this level of foolishness. Amen to that. Amen.

We have to go to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air while you still have time, there's less than a half hour left.

This time is flying by like a bullet, just as I knew it would. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Iron Sharpens Iron for that, and we thank them from the bottom of our hearts for doing that. And we do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, Tyler, and he asks, when it comes to the sin of homosexual unions, do you think it was only the spark for the now ever -expanding campaign for immorality?

Absolutely, and let's be very clear about that, and there are a couple of reasons.

And often when I travel, people will say, well, is homosexuality a bigger sin than other sins?

And it sort of depends, you know, how you want to answer that. From the position of biblical ethics, any sin that attacks the creation ordinance is a biggie.

Now, is the sin of homosexual practice, does it make God's love in Christ and forgiveness a casualty?

Well, no. No, the blood of Christ is bigger than any sin. We know that. But when a sin becomes a constitutional right, and we saw that in 1973 with Roe v.

Wade, and now we see it in 2015 with Obergefell versus Hodges.

So, those two landmark decisions, I think, have created a perfect storm, and I'm concerned when

I travel that Christians are just sleepwalking their way into Babylon when they say, well, come on, you know, gay marriage, all that means is that gay people can now be married.

Well, I think that the religious liberty fallout we're seeing reveals that that's not true.

And that's not true because certain categories of reality depend upon exclusivity to exist.

I mean, we know that's true in the chemical world, and it's true in the real world, and it's true in the gospel world.

The gospel itself is based on the exclusivity of Christ, and the reason is because of God's love.

You know, one of my favorite Puritans, Vincent Alsop, says, The love of Christ was a conquering, triumphant love.

It bore down whatever stood in its way. It grappled with the displeasure of God, with the malice of devils, the fury of unreasonable men, and with the unkindness of the scrims.

It broke through all discouragements and trampled upon all oppositions.

But if you declare that sin is not sin, the Bible makes clear that you have no part in that.

You have no part in that. And so, I think, you know, we need to remember that great battles in theology faced by the

Church over the centuries have been caused by the introduction of unbiblical categories and the imprecise language that emerges from this.

We've seen this before. You know, are we justified by faith, or are we justified by faith alone?

Does the Bible contain the Word of God, or is the Bible the Word of God? And I would say that the gay

Christian movement and the LGBT rights movement, which are separate movements but deeply connected, they have introduced unbiblical ontology that has simply banked on a category of personhood that God does not.

It adds a little fray to the Gospel, and it simply stirs up a complete disaster.

And I'm very—it's sad to report, but the broad evangelical Church has proved to me that it has no theological foothold to respond to biblical integrity, and the

Reformed Church needs to wake up fast, because biblical ontology is at stake.

And so, I'm in complete agreement with the questioner. This comes at a moment in American culture when the

Gospel of Jesus Christ is on a collision course with the Gospel of sexual autonomy.

In fact, Tyler asks a second question that you also pretty much answered, but if you wanted to add to it.

He says, do you think that Christians need to be better equipped with love and, apologetically speaking the truth?

I don't think he means, I'm sorry to tell you apologetically. No, absolutely.

And you know, that's exactly—that was what I was trying to get at in my book, Openness Unhindered. How can we really stand shoulder to shoulder with our friends who identify as LGBT and maybe even also, you know, call themselves

Christians? How can we stand shoulder to shoulder with an apologetics of the real

Gospel, which everybody needs? You know, and we need to be very precise ourselves here with our language.

Can someone struggle with unchosen homosexual desires, but struggle in God's way, and be a faithful believer of Jesus?

Well, of course. We all struggle with something. Well, yeah, that's the same with anything. Yeah, but do we need to understand that this particular—the juncture that we're in demands that we be cultural apologeticists of a high level of integrity?

Yes. And I'm very concerned that if we don't speak the truth—and you know, it won't be considered love.

I mean, I will tell you about a year ago now, a friend of mine—this is a dear friend, somebody I've known over many, many decades—our children are friends.

We have, you know, cared for each other when our children were either born or placed with us.

We were, you know, just the best of friends. She came out as a lesbian, and she called me up, and she said,

Rosaria, we can no longer be friends because you don't approve of me. And, you know,

I was really taken aback by this, but one of the reasons I was taken aback by this is I had to say, Sally, I hate to remind you of this, but I've never approved of you, and you've never approved of me.

I mean, we disagreed about spanking, about chicken nuggets, about Pixar films, about homeschooling.

We disagreed about these things. And she laughed, and she said, wow, you're right.

I never did approve of you. I thought, you know, spanking was barbaric, and, you know, that oil that you serve your children chicken nuggets in was, you know, like dog food, and, you know,

I never approved of you. And I said, no, but we loved each other. So, you know, one of the things we need to do is remember that, and Ken Smith said this to me long ago, you cannot give a good answer to a bad question.

So one of the things a good apologeticist does is insist upon biblical terms for how this conversation is going to play out.

And, you know, my husband said to me something recently, but I think, I mean, everything he says to me, I think, is wise, but I think this was really spot -on.

He said, so many of our divisions right now are truly because we, as a church, are divided on what

Genesis 1 through 10 or 11 really means. So if we can't get it together, how can we possibly expect anybody else to?

Hmm. And so for those of you listening who are confused by the language regarding apologetics, because we always use the word apologize, meaning to say

I'm sorry, if you go to 1 Peter 3 verse 15, we read, but sanctify

Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asked you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.

That's basically apologetics in a nutshell right there. Yes, it is. And thank you so much,

Tyler. You are also getting a free copy of The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert and a copy of the

New American Standard Bible free of charge. We have Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, who wants to know if Abraham Kuyper is a hero of yours, since he was a liberal minister who became a born -again believer later in his calling as a pastor when he was confronted by an elderly sister in Christ in the congregation who gave him the gospel.

Well, I will say all believers are a hero of mine, although someone wisely said to me recently, she said,

Reziah, only make a hero out of dead saints they finished well.

Amen, amen. It's always a dangerous thing when you are upholding somebody who's still alive and still has an opportunity to embarrass you.

That's right, but yes, I appreciate Kuyper's work very much. We've got some important differences, but again, any strong believer making a good case out there is on my team, on God's team.

Amen, and you are also, Susan, receiving a free copy of Rosaria's book and the

New American Standard Bible. We have an anonymous listener in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, how should

I handle a situation when unmarried heterosexual loved ones in my family want to temporarily move in my house?

So here's a situation where you have a sexual sin, not homosexuality, but it's a heterosexual sin, and they want to know should they ever be permitted into the home of a

Christian to live there, and the person who is writing anonymously says,

P .S., there are children involved, and I really do not want to risk their well -being by refusing this request.

Right, right, right. You know, this is one of those moments where you absolutely need your pastor and your elders to be deeply walking with you in this situation.

Excellent. You know, Satan always wants you to believe that there's only one way, and it's his way, but God's power in these situations to make roads where there were walls is absolutely something you can bank on, but if you do not, if you cut out, literally cut out your pastor and your elders from shepherding you through this very difficult decision, then you are denying yourself one of the great privileges of what it means to be part of the body of Christ.

So, no, we should not want the children of loved ones to go into foster care, let's say, but there are extra rooms, there are extra homes in your church, there's a way out, but don't believe that Satan's way, because it's expedient, is the best way.

Now, if you're not a member of a Bible -believing church, you need to become one.

I talk with people all over the country who are visitors to church. They are perpetual onlookers.

Jesus has not called us to be looking at the church from the sideline. It's dangerous for us, and it's dangerous for the church.

So, exactly how you should serve these dear family members is not clear, because your church hasn't weighed in on it yet.

But I will pray about that, I absolutely will, and I will also pray that you will get the nurturing that you need from your church, and the extra hands, because what you need are extra hands.

I mean, you know, the answer to this is we need more than one house. Amen. And one question

I have that, you've already brought this up earlier, but I want to make it clearer to our listeners.

And I find myself, I think most Christians do find themselves, you know, slipping their tongues in speech and so on, but I'm getting the impression, and I've heard other guests of mine say this, and I've seen great wisdom in this, that it's wrong, really, to identify a person as a homosexual or a lesbian, because that's really not what they are.

It may be what they are interested in or actively involved in as far as a practice, but it's not what they are.

Right, absolutely. And I would say that even when people insist upon it, so the gay

Christian movement began with people insisting upon claiming the category of gay as a mark of personhood, and as a true mark of personhood that can, you know, be kind of coterminous with Christian.

And one of the things we need to remember is that the Gospel always comes in exchange for your life, not in addition to it.

Furthermore, the Gospel calls you to be a citizen of a new country where no dual citizenship is allowed.

So, if we really understand those covenantal relationships of the

Old Testament, that I would say, especially the injunction in Genesis 1, 26 -27, that we are male and female image bearers of a holy

God with a soul that will last forever, and a body that will inherit the New Jerusalem, then we do not want to degrade people, even if they want us to see us in those terms.

I think it helps to understand what people are asking. You know, often people are asking a very simple thing, and really something that we should be able to give, and it's this.

Please see how I struggle. Please know my vulnerabilities. Please understand that I am a vital and faithful member of your

Church, but I do not want you to try to fix me or fix me up. You know, it could be that simple.

Or it could be even deeper than that. Please understand I need to live with a family in the

Church. I'm not safe alone. Please understand that this indwelling sin has wrapped itself around my neck, and I don't know what to do next.

I mean, it could be very deep. You have to find out what people are really saying when they're using false categories of personhood.

But there's only one category of personhood, male and female image bearers of a holy God. If we who are

Christians will judge the angels someday, we ought never use terms that the

Lord himself associates with sinful and fallen men, fallen patterns, to modify what it means to be

Christian. Amen. One thing I want you to address, and I know already

I want you back very soon, and when we go off the air, if you could have a calendar ready, because I want to get you back.

But I was so grieved by what happened at Wheaton College. I was just taken aback by this.

Which thing that happened at Wheaton College? There's a lot to be grieved about. Why don't you tell our listeners in a few minutes what occurred there?

Well, I don't know which one you mean. Do you mean what happened to me, or what happened... Yes, the protest. Okay, because there's a...

Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. I'm not grieved by that. Okay, I mean, I'm sorry if you are. So I went to Wheaton College in January of 2014 to share my testimony in chapel and met with...

Now, the body count is different. I was told 100 demonstrators who held up signs that said things like, all love is true love,

Rosario's story is one story, my story is another, God loves me just as I am, those kinds of things.

And I was told at the time that the college had a week's notice about this protest. It would have been, quite frankly, charitable of them to let me know that.

But I did what I always do. I met with my protesters.

I shook their hands. I hugged them. I invited them to a talkback session, and during that talkback session, they shared with me their concerns, and that was one of the first times that I really started realizing that our

Christian colleges are very vulnerable, that some of the ideas that I used to teach...

And I guess I should back up and say, I wasn't offended by what happened at Geneva, because you know what? This is the world

I helped create. The blood's on my hands. I meet these students who could be my own children.

These could have been the people I discipled at Syracuse. I don't see them as people from whom

I have a kind of detached, you know, opposition. My heart goes out to them.

And so, you know, I sat down and met with them. They did come to my chapel address. I don't think

I changed any minds, but our Christian colleges are really being torn asunder.

But I'll tell you this, and I know this is really controversial. I mean, unlike all the other things I've said on your show.

You know, anytime you have a Christian college that is so dependent upon feminist theory, um, please don't think that LGBT rights is far from it.

The gateway of ordaining, you know, gay and lesbian theology as a sacred idea came through the bridge of ordaining women elders and pastors.

It's the same argument. Same hermeneutic. It's the same hermeneutic.

So we're just seeing a new version of it. So if you want to defend the right of feminism to inform your theology, on what grounds are you upset now when you see it manifested in LGBT rights?

You have no right to be upset. So there's just, you know, Christian colleges are very fraught with these kinds of debates.

And that's more than enough reason for the church really to rise up and really take her place as that which stewards the ideas that we struggle with.

You know, we're no longer in the garden. I don't have to tell you that. I'm certainly not. You're not. But we are still called to steward things, and the things are called to steward our ideas.

Amen. I wasn't offended by what happened at Wheaton, and I face protesters everywhere

I go. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have your website.

It's, once again, rosariabutterfield .com. That's rosariabutterfield .com.

I also want you to know that the church where her husband is a pastor, First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham, North Carolina, that website is firstrpcdurham .org.

That's first R -P -C for Reformed Presbyterian Church. And Durham is spelt D -U -R -H -A -M dot

O -R -G. And it's the whole word first, by the way, F -I -R -S -T, rpcdurham .org.

And last but not least, Crown and Covenant Publishing. Their website is crownandcovenant .com.

crownandcovenant .com. We want to thank, again, Danielle and everybody over at Crown and Covenant for providing us with the free giveaway books.

And if you could, in a minute, Rosaria, just leave our listeners with a summary of what you most want etched on their hearts and minds today.

The thing I would want most etched in our hearts and minds is just to remember that the

Gospel is always ahead of us. That we're facing questions and issues and divisions that are deep and frightening.

This is a great time to just settle down tonight with First Peter and First John and to remember that it is true that the love of Christ was a conquering and triumphant love.

And things are dark right now. Judgment starts in the household of God.

And I think we're seeing that. And so we're to apply our faith to the facts of this.

We're to apply the means of grace. And we're to take a little check of our own life.

If you've been a visitor to church but you're not a member, correct that now.

If you have been lackluster in your own Bible reading, correct that now.

You're not just reading the Bible for yourself. On your shoulders stand many, many unbelievers that you love.

But don't lose heart. And don't lose faith. And don't expect that things are going to go better for you than they did for our

Savior. We are called to suffer. And when we repent of our sin, we give glory to God.

Amen. And Will, I want to thank you so much. If you could hold on the line so we can schedule you for another interview when we go off the air.

And I want to thank everybody for listening, especially those who took the time to write. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater