June 8, 2020 Show with Brian G. Hedges on “Thriving Grace: Twelve Ways the Puritans Fuel Spiritual Growth”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 8th day of June 2020 and it's great to have back on the program after a long absence

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Brian G. Hedges who is lead pastor of Redeemer Church in Niles, Michigan and author of a number of books including

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The Story of His Glory, Active Spirituality, and Watchfulness, Recovering a

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Lost Spiritual Discipline. Today we're going to be addressing one of his latest books that he co -authored with Dr.

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Joel Beeky who is no stranger to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has been a guest a number of times.

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The book is titled Thriving Grace, 12 Ways the Puritans Fuel Spiritual Growth and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Brian G.

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Hedges. Thank you Chris good to be back today. I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away if they have questions that they'd like to ask of their own it's chrisarnzen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and as always please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Before we go into the main theme which is the theme of your book co -authored with Dr.

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Beeky tell our listeners something about Redeemer Church in Niles, Michigan. Our Redeemer Church is more or less a non -denominational church but reformed in our theology and I've been the pastor of the church for 17 years now we're just beginning to meet again after three months of live streaming and things like that so this coming

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Sunday we opened the doors up again for the first time since March 15th so we're very excited to be back together as a congregation.

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Now how would you describe it in more detail is it baptistic is it paedo -baptist?

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We are baptistic the church originally was founded as a baptist church and a few years ago we kind of renamed rebranded the church and went through that whole process so our

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Redeemer Church now so we're unaffiliated with any denomination we're kind of in the gospel coalition stream of reformed thinking churches and people coming from a pretty wide variety backgrounds so lots of people from baptistic backgrounds but we've also had people come from presbyterian churches or christian reformed or anglican or even occasionally some charismatics people at least with a charismatic background kind of find their way often when they're leaving the charismatic movement they end up in our church.

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And you would be coming from a theologically reformed framework? Yes definitely yeah so I would be

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I mean I'm in large sympathy with the three forms of unity Westminster Confession of Faith, 1689

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Baptist Confession of Faith, that whole historic stream. Love John Calvin, love

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Martin Luther, love the Puritans obviously and I guess in more contemporary

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I think more contemporary authors personally have been really shaped by men like R .C.

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Sproul, J .I. Packer, John Piper, Tim Keller, D .A.

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Carson, kind of guys in that framework. Great well if anybody wants to look up and find out more information on Redeemer Church there in Michigan, in Niles, Michigan to be precise, go to their website and that is redeemer .ch.

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Can you tell us something about approximately when and how in your journey as a

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Christian you developed a love for the Puritans? How did you discover them and how did you fall in love with them as many especially reformed

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Christians have? Not exclusively reformed, there are even some of our non -Calvinist fundamentalist friends, fundamentalist

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Baptists who have fallen in love with the Puritans as well and others, even some charismatics have fallen in love with the

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Puritans. But tell us what was specifically involved in your journey? Yeah well the first step for me was the home in which

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I was raised. So my dad is a preacher and I grew up with him reading the

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Puritans, him reading to us as we were kids, reading things like Charles Spurgeon.

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I remember seeing on his shelves lots of Banner of Truth titles, the works of John Flavel and John Owen and Richard Sibbes and so on.

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And probably the first of the Puritans that I ever read was John Bunyan, so was introduced to Pilgrim's Progress when

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I was really young and then Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners, that was pretty early for me and some of Jonathan Edwards writings.

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And then as I began to grow as a young adult I was reading guys like John MacArthur and J .I.

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Packer and John Piper and of course they were just quoting the Puritans all the time. So it just wasn't long before I started picking up those volumes for myself and I've been reading them ever since, it's been so helpful for me.

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So you didn't have to overcome a stereotype that may have blocked you otherwise or prevented you from even touching a work by a

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Puritan because it's so tragic that there are many people who speak without knowledge and wisdom and education on the subject and they will merely read what the enemies of Calvinism have written and very often those enemies obviously will vilify the

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Puritans and they have been described in all sorts of horrible ways.

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There are some elements of truth in the negative history of the Puritans, we don't want to candy coat or cover up anything that's true, but there are grossly exaggerated teachings about the

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Puritans and that they were a really dull killjoy kind of party killers, if you will, and even worse, that they may have had a bloodthirsty hatred for Baptists or anyone outside of their own group.

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They may have had very strong vociferous disagreements with many of those who were not among them and sometimes it led some among their numbers to do harmful things, but the really evil description that is painted of them is a really slanderous exaggeration, is it not?

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Yeah, absolutely. Fortunately for me, that hasn't been my experience that I had a lot to overcome.

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I am using the word Puritan, and we do in this book, fairly broadly. I would include John Bunyan, even though John Bunyan was a non -conformist, he was a

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Baptist, a separatist. My early introduction, as I mentioned, was Bunyan, but then even when

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I started reading more of the actual Puritans, guys who sat in the

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Westminster Assembly, what struck me so early on was actually how deeply joyful they were in just the depth of their love for God, their joy in Christ.

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One of the very first Puritan books I ever read was by Thomas Brooks. Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices?

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Yes, excellent. That wasn't the one I read. I have read that one and I love it, but the one I read, as far as I know, has never been published separately outside of his works in recent days, but it was called

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An Ark for All God's Noahs. It was a meditation on a passage from Lamentations, the

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Lord is my portion. He just goes through, I don't remember now, probably 25 or 30 different ways in which

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God is our portion, and talks about how he's a satisfying portion, and a delightful portion, and the best possible portion.

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It just captured my heart. It was one of the most beautiful things I'd ever read about God, and it expanded my appetite to know the

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Lord, and that was my introduction to the Puritans when I started actually reading full books for myself.

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In fact, Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices may have been my introduction to the

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Puritans. I'm pretty sure it's a Banner of Truth publication, and it may be published by others as well, since it's public domain now.

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Yeah, it's in their Puritan paperback series. Just a fantastic book. I've read parts of that multiple times, and read all the way through it just a year or two ago.

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It's just an excellent book. Now, how did you and Dr. Beeke wind up getting together to collaborate on a single book of your own about the

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Puritans thriving in grace? Well, I've done a little bit of writing for Reformation Heritage books over the last couple of years, so they published my book,

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Watchfulness, and then I've edited several of the books in their Puritan Treasures for Today series.

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That's how I first met Dr. Beeke, or at Then a little over a year ago,

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I pitched the idea for this short book that was kind of an entry -level introduction to the

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Puritans. It was based, in part, on an article that I wrote for Banner of Truth magazine a long time ago, probably 2007 -2008.

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I was just taking that outline and thought I could fill that out to a full book. I sent that proposal in, and Dr.

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Beeke reviews all the proposals that come through Reformation Heritage books. He liked it and thought that he would enjoy adding to that if I was open to that.

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Of course, he's the real Puritan expert. I'm just a pastor who reads the Puritans, and I enjoy the writing, but he's the scholar, and so I jumped at the idea as soon as they suggested that.

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I thought, yeah, that'd be great to co -author the book with him and let him have a lot of input on it.

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So we worked out a plan, and essentially we each wrote half of the book. We each wrote six chapters.

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Well, one of the things that the Puritans are known for, which has led, as I was saying earlier, some folks who started out spreading some of those slanderous lies about the

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Puritans, and I have to be very careful the way I speak. I don't want to broad brush, but some of our independent fundamentalist

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Baptist friends who are not Reformed or Calvinistic in any way, some of them at one point were spreading the same vicious slanders about the

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Puritans that others have and still do, but then some of them thankfully began actually reading them.

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I know a number of fundamentalists who, because of the saturation of biblical truth, the biblical -driven writings and lives of the

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Puritans, drove many of these folks that I know to do 180 -degree turnaround, and they have come to love and enthusiastically recommend the

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Puritans, even though they may disagree on some important theological issues with these folks.

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But because of the fact that they are so bibliocentric, or should

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I say were, but they still live among us now in their writings, tell us how the scriptures themselves have been a force in fueling spiritual growth.

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Well, I mean, the Puritans were preachers, right? By and large, the

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Puritan writings we have today are their expositions of Scripture, their sermons.

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Occasionally you have a theological treatise, but they were preachers, and they were ministers of the

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Word, so the Word of God was for them the source of divine revelation, of special revelation.

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It was authoritative. It was inspired, inerrant. I mean, they held a very high view of Scripture, and so almost everything they write, you find that.

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There's an anecdote from Spurgeon about John Bunyan, where he said if you prick

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Bunyan anywhere, he bleeds Bible, because his blood was biblene, he said.

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And that's true of most of the Puritans. You read them, and they're just quoting Scripture, applying

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Scripture, interacting with Scripture, and they viewed the scriptures as God's primary means of grace by which we grow in the faith, and I think reading them proves that out to be true.

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Yes, and of course, there is no better place for someone that you adopt as a

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Christian hero, there's no better place for that hero to be gaining his own wisdom than from the authoritative scriptures, which are inerrant and infallible, and the only infallible rule of faith for the church.

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And before I go to any other of the ways, of these 12 ways that the

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Puritans fuel spiritual growth, how do you overcome an argument that some have said, especially perhaps folks like Fundamentalist Baptists, why are you wasting your time reading the

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Puritans? They are not authors of the divinely inspired, inerrant scriptures, why don't you just stick with the

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Bible? How do you overcome an attack like that? Well, I think it's the same response you would make to why we need teaching and preaching in the church.

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So most of, I suppose, most of the Fundamentalist preachers that would say that would not say that we don't need preachers, they would agree that God has given the gift of teaching to some people within the church, and the gift of preaching, and that we benefit from the exposition and the application of scripture from gifted men, and that to refuse to benefit from that gift is actually arrogant and proud on our parts.

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And I would just extend the argument and say that God has gifted teachers, and pastors, and preachers throughout the history of the church, and that it's to our own impoverishment if we ignore those gifts, and the

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Puritans were some of the most gifted of those men in the history of the church. And so they weren't, they were not infallible, nobody's claiming that they were,

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I don't agree with everything I read in every Puritan book, but they helped me to understand scripture, and they point me to God, and they point me to Christ, and they've helped me in my spiritual life.

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And I think those who take the time to actually read them will find that that's true for them as well. Yes, even

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Dr. Joel Beeke, not long ago, probably two years ago, maybe three, at a

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Banner of Truth conference that I attended, even he who is known as a great lover of the

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Puritans, in fact naming his seminary that he founded, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, even he at the

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Banner of Truth conference had at least one session on how we should not imitate the

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Puritans. Right. So that goes to show you we, although we,

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I don't think there's anything wrong, in fact I know there's nothing wrong and everything right about having a healthy view of developing heroes from the history, and even from the present day, there's a difference between having heroes though and idols.

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Absolutely, yeah. But one of the things that the

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Puritans have helped those who have read them do is lift our gaze to the greatness and glory of our triune

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God, and perhaps the primary words we should be looking at in this next question that I'm asking you, greatness, glory, and triune.

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Very often, even though on paper you'll have every truly evangelical church believing in the

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Trinity, believing that God is triune, we very often do not treat him or speak of him that way.

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Our theology doesn't reflect it, our prayer life doesn't reflect it, our worship doesn't reflect it.

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But if you could just give us some insights into this aspect of lifting our gaze to the greatness and glory of our triune

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God. Well again, to refer to the Puritans and how they have helped me, one

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Puritan who really stands out is John Owen, and I'm assuming that many of your listeners will be familiar with John Owen.

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Owen wrote a wonderful book called Communion with the Triune God, and it's essentially a manual on prayer that shows how the believer has distinct communion with each person in the

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Trinity, so that we relate to God the Father in a particular way, and we relate to God the

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Son in a particular way, and we relate to God the Holy Spirit in a particular way. And I think it's just an amazingly helpful book.

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That's one of the most enriching things that I've read, and it has given me a deeper appreciation for the

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Trinity, that this is not just some abstract doctrine that we have to agree to on paper, but it's really the heart, the living heart of the

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Gospel, is that our God is Father, Son, and Spirit, and the Gospel is that God the

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Father has sent his Son to be our substitute, to be our Redeemer, to die for our sins, to rise from the dead, and he has sent his

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Spirit into our hearts by whom we cry out, Abba Father. And so the very experience of prayer is the experience of the

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Holy Spirit within us on the basis of Christ the

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Son outside of us re -establishing communion with God the

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Father above us. And there is no Christian life without the

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Trinity. There's no salvation without the Trinity. There's no Gospel without the Trinity. So it becomes the most practical of all doctrines when we begin to understand how the doctrine of the

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Trinity impacts our prayer life, and faith, and worship, and so on. And the Puritans are wonderful guides often in this.

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They don't all equally emphasize the Trinity in the same way that John Owen does, but Owen is particularly good in that regard.

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Yes, and you brought up John Bunyan earlier. John Owen demonstrated very wise discernment and humility.

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Being a man of great education and esteem, he even let the lowly

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Tinker preach from his pulpit, and they became friends and so on.

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He was instrumental in getting Pilgrim's Progress published as well, we think. Right, just because he recognized not only the amazing gifts of Bunyan, but the

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Biblical truth that he possessed. That's right, yeah. And as far as the

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Puritans convicting our consciences of the subtlety and sinfulness of sin, that is one thing that Puritans are known for, but perhaps even outside of Reformed circles, is that they are very, in their writings, very thorough in convicting the hearts of their readers about their sin.

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And sometimes even this has been exaggerated as if this is all they talked about and all they were doing was keeping their congregants and their readers gripped with terror non -stop.

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But if you read enough of the Puritans, you realize this is not true, because they were also extremely grace -centered.

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And so tell us about this way that the Puritans convict our consciences to the subtlety and sinfulness of sin.

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Yeah, well, the Puritans' view of sin was an outgrowth of their view of Scripture, which we've already discussed, and their view of God.

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So when you have a high view of God, when you see God as infinite and holy and majestic and sovereign, just and righteous, when you see

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God in His glorious attributes, it's only then that we begin to see ourselves as we are, that we begin to see sin for what it is.

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And so when the Puritans talk about sin, they talk about sin within this context, within this

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God -centered worldview, and they see sin first and foremost as an affront to God, as rebellion against God, and as that which disrupts our own relationship with God or fellowship with God.

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And so they very skillfully apply the Word of God to the conscience of the believer, to help the believer see the sinfulness of sin.

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And so this is pretty common in the Puritans. You'll find this even in their titles.

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Ralph Vinning wrote the book, The Sinfulness of Sin, or I think it was

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Jeremiah Burroughs, The Evil of Evils. And here's actually a quote from Vinning.

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He says that God is the cheapest of goods, and sin is the cheapest of evils.

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As no good can be compared with God for goodness, so no evil can be compared with sin for evil.

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That's the way they thought. And so they really do just plumb the depths of the human conscience in showing us the true nature of sin, the guilt of sin, the corruption and pollution of sin, the power of sin.

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But they're doing that like good physicians. They were soul physicians, physicians of the soul.

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And as a good physician during diagnosis wants to be as honest as possible with the problem and diagnosing exactly what's going on.

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What is the degree of this cancer? What is the extent of this disease?

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You know, what needs to happen in order to get a clear diagnosis? The Puritans do that with sin in order to then apply the healing balm of the gospel to our hearts.

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So it was never an end in and of itself. It's not that they want us to feel guilty for the sake of feeling guilty, but they want us to see our sinful conditions so that we will embrace

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God's grace and God's mercy given to us in Christ. Amen.

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And we have to go to our first station break. If you'd like to join us once again with a question of your own, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Perhaps you disagree with your pastor or your entire congregation for the most part over something that we are addressing today, and you don't want to draw attention to yourself.

28:22

You might even be a pastor, and you disagree with your fellow elders or your denomination over a point of theology, doctrine, teaching, and practice that we are going to be speaking of.

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It's very understandable that you would want to remain anonymous, but please, if it's not a personal and private matter, just a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Brian Hedges after this message. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the program is

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Brian G. Hedges, lead pastor of Redeemer Church in Niles, Michigan, and author of several books, including

32:36

The Story of His Glory, Active Spirituality, Watchfulness, Recovering a

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Lost Spiritual Discipline, and the book we are addressing today, Thriving Grace, Twelve Ways the

32:48

Puritans Fuel Spiritual Growth, which was co -authored by Dr.

32:53

Joel Beakey, and our email address if you have questions is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

33:00

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

33:10

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

33:22

And before I go to a listener question, I wanted you to, it's kind of off topic, but we just had recently a tribute to the late

33:35

Ravi Zacharias, a man greatly beloved in the body of Christ by a very broad spectrum of professing

33:42

Christians, and I had two people who knew him very well personally, and also

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I played an encore presentation of an interview

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I had with Ravi some years ago, and I was just hoping that you could just share a little bit about how

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Ravi Zacharias touched and blessed your life. Yeah, thank you.

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When I was 25 years old, I was preparing for the ministry leading up to my ordination, and for my 25th birthday, my wife gave me one of the most wonderful gifts

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I've ever received. She wrote to a number of pastors and preachers and godly men that I respected, and among them was

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Ravi Zacharias, and she asked if they would write me a personal letter with advice as I was leading in the ministry, and Ravi sent me a personal letter with his advice, and essentially he just highlighted the importance of replenishment and taking care of my soul after the output of preaching, and almost, well,

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I guess 21 years later, I'm 46 now, so 21 years later, that advice is more important than it's ever been.

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I didn't quite understand how important that was at 25, but when he passed away a couple weeks ago,

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I dug that letter out, and I was encouraged to read it again, and I've enjoyed the last couple weeks listening to some of his messages again.

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Well, praise God, and if anyone wants to look up the tribute that I aired in honor of Ravi Zacharias, you can go to the archive at irontreppanzionradio .com,

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and go to the past shows podcast section, click on that, and if you type in RAV as in Victory I, that will surely come up among probably my original interview with him, but I hope you enjoy that.

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We have a listener from Lisbon, Iowa.

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His name is Jake, and Jake says, how do you think the

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Puritans would have responded to the state's closing church services for an extended period of time due to the supposed health concerns?

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Well, that's a great question. I don't know. I'm not sure how they would respond to that.

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The Puritans lived in an age where they just lived with the plague all the time.

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The plague would visit Europe and London sometimes every year, and so they were not as fearful of suffering and death as we are.

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I think they were more accustomed to it. I think it was more common in the 17th century with all the centuries that went before in terms of where they were with medical advancement and just the brutal conditions of life in the pre -modern world.

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It's pretty different, I think, the way we live today. So I'm not sure. I don't know quite how to answer that question.

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I hadn't even really thought about that question before it was asked, so I wish I could be more helpful. What do you think,

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Chris? That's hard for me to answer. I would never call myself an expert on the

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Puritans, and it's also a lot of guesswork that needs to be done when you go back in time and try to figure out what a person from centuries ago, even a faithful Christian, may have done what they may have done with something involving something that just recently happened in our generation.

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Of course, I believe that the Puritans, as many of my heroes from centuries past, if it was a very serious plague or pandemic where, you know, we're talking about things like on the level of the

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Black Plague and so on, where there were countless lives perishing all around your average

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Christian in certain areas of the world, I would have hoped to think that they would have no problem with a temporary withdrawal from public gathering and doing things that the medical wisdom of their day thought was appropriate and best.

38:44

Martin Luther even wrote of such things in the 16th century with the plagues that he was faced with, but I obviously can't be certain with that.

38:57

I guess one of the things would be also in regard to laws that are developed by secular authorities, and the

39:10

Bible commands us to obey the secular authorities, but there is a limit when we have to say enough is enough, because we're trying to do our best to obey

39:19

God above men, and we're supposed to be fearing God more than men. Well, the

39:26

Puritans in that regard, I mean, they are wonderful examples. After the act of uniformity in 1662,

39:34

I believe it was, 2 ,000 non -conformist ministers were kicked out of the pulpits. So they essentially lost their living, they lost their churches, and many of those pastors continued to minister in secret.

39:49

So sometimes there's even stories of Puritans who would meet with a small band of congregants, you know, in the middle of the forest in the middle of the night so that they could worship according to their conscience.

40:00

So in those kinds of settings, I think they do have something to teach us. The other thing that comes to mind in regards to the pandemic is that the book

40:09

I referenced here a few minutes ago, Ralph Venning's book, The Sinfulness of Sin, was originally entitled

40:16

The Plague of Plagues because it was released shortly after one of these great plagues in London.

40:24

So I do think one of the things that Puritans would do, because they did this, is when people were, you know, suffering from plague and physical disease and so on and so alarmed by that, is they would try to lift our eyes to greater eternal realities and say, yes, you know, the plague is bad, but the plague of sin is worse.

40:46

Physical sickness can cause physical death, but the sickness of sin can lead to eternal death.

40:54

And David encourages them to examine our own hearts and souls and to flee to Christ for grace and for forgiveness.

41:01

Great. Well, by the way, Jake, you have won a free copy of the book we are addressing.

41:09

So please give us your complete address in Lisbon, Iowa, and we will send you a copy of Thriving in Grace, 12

41:18

Ways the Puritans Fuel Spiritual Growth by Brian G. Hedges and Dr.

41:24

Joel Beakey. And in fact, we will have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship that out to you.

41:31

They ship out all of our winners, the books and Bibles and other things they win by sending in questions to our guests.

41:38

And you have another blessing, Jake, because since you're a first -time questioner, you're also going to receive a free

41:46

New American Standard Bible, which we send out to all first -time questioners during the program.

41:54

And that is compliments of the publishers of the NASB. And it will also be shipped out by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

42:04

But we want to thank Reformation Heritage Books for providing us with these copies of Thriving in Grace.

42:12

So thank you very much, Jake. We hope to hear from you many more times in the future.

42:19

One of the 12 ways that Puritans fuel spiritual growth, according to you and Dr.

42:30

Beakey, is that the

42:37

Puritans open our eyes to the beauty and loveliness of Christ. And there you have,

42:44

I'm sure, a myth buster, going back to what I originally addressed in the very beginning of the show, this horrible, horrific, solely terrifying, grim, pessimistic and frightening group of people that the

43:05

Puritans allegedly were, according to many who have never read them thoroughly enough to discover the truth.

43:13

But this, obviously, is a refuge to run to when we are faced with the horror of our own sin, the beauty and loveliness of Christ, if you could continue.

43:28

The Puritans just loved Jesus Christ and wrote about Jesus Christ incessantly.

43:37

Let me quote one of the Puritans. This is from Thomas Adams, 1583 to 1652.

43:44

Thomas Adams said, Christ is the sole paragon of our joy, the fountain of life, the foundation of all blessedness.

43:52

Christ is the sum of the whole Bible, prophesied, typified, prefigured, exhibited, demonstrated, to be found in every leaf, almost in every line, the scriptures being but, as it were, the swaddling bands of the child

44:06

Jesus. That quote is not an exception. That's how the

44:12

Puritans talked. If you read John Flavel, if you read Isaac Ambrose, if you read John Owen, Thomas Watson, the

44:20

Puritans spoke about Jesus in these kinds of terms. They were as Christ -centered as perhaps any generation of Christians, of believers in the history of the church.

44:34

Often they wrote entire treatises on aspects of Christ's person or Christ's work.

44:43

I think as believers, we grow in proportion to our faith in Christ, our love for Christ, our devotion to Christ.

44:55

The Puritans can really help us understand the personal work of Christ more and also fan into flame this heart of love and of faith in Christ.

45:10

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, why is it and how is it that today, in our day and age, when we have at our fingertips, due to the miracle of the internet, access to Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic, and how we can derive and glean from some of the greatest minds that have ever lived within Christendom, and yet today, rarely does the church produce an example of a pastor or a scholar and theologian on the level of the

45:55

Puritans, when they had so many more hurdles to overcome than we do now?

46:03

Yeah, that's another wonderful question. So I would say that there are great examples of pastor theologians today and great scholars who are orthodox in their theology and hold to the gospel.

46:23

My co -author for this book, Dr. Joel Beakey, would be a great example. Oh, yes.

46:28

The kinds of curriculum, if you look at the catalog for Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary and look at the kinds of students they're putting out, they are training men in this way.

46:41

But I do think the Puritans live in a different age where even just basic education was very different.

46:48

So most of the Puritan authors were trained classically. They were learning

46:53

Latin and Greek in what we would think of now as their junior high and high school education.

47:03

Most people today don't get that kind of education and have to pursue it very deliberately, if they do at all.

47:10

That may be one reason. The other is just to remember that there were lots of people in the 17th century and probably even lots of pastors we've never heard of and never will.

47:22

The books that lasted are the best books, the books by the Puritans. And three centuries from now, there will be a handful of books from the 20th century that last, and they will be by some of the best minds and the best scholars and the most godly men and women, and that God preserves those books and they continue to live on.

47:47

Well, thank you very much, Harrison. You've also won a free copy of Thriving in Grace, so make sure we have your full mailing address in Mechanicsburg.

47:55

Going back to the 12 ways that we are discussing in which the

48:02

Puritans fuel spiritual growth, if you could tell us more about how the

48:10

Puritans liberate our hearts with the freedom and power of grace. Yeah, the

48:16

Puritans write a lot about grace, and they emphasize both of those things, the freedom of grace and the power of grace.

48:26

So the freedom of grace, in that the Puritans certainly defended the doctrine of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

48:41

For the most part, the Puritans were, you know, they were heirs to the

48:46

Reformation, and so the reformed doctrine of justification that we get from Luther and then

48:53

Calvin is essentially what the Puritans taught as well. There are occasional exceptions to that, and one would be

49:01

Richard Baxter, who is, he is a Puritan who's fairly well known today because of his book,

49:07

The Reformed Pastor, which is a great book. Baxter and his doctrine of justification, I think, is less helpful.

49:15

But when you read Puritans such as Robert Trail or John Owen or Thomas Watson on these, on the issue of justification, they are emphasizing the freedom and the grace of God in justification.

49:31

The justification is by faith alone, through the instrumentality of faith alone, and then on the basis of the meritorious work of Christ, Christ's righteousness and obedience, which is credited to us.

49:45

They also emphasize the freedom of God's grace in terms of the doctrines of grace, and I don't necessarily emphasize that as much in this book, but certainly if you start digging into the

50:00

Puritans on the doctrines of election or predestination, you will find a hearty defense of the doctrines of grace, and they're wonderful to read in that regard.

50:12

Again, other than from Richard Baxter, whose Reformed Pastor is one of the most highly recommended and read books by the greatest

50:26

Reformed minds, but he sadly was not an example of a thoroughly Reformed, theologically

50:32

Reformed... Right. Yeah, that's right. So Baxter, I think, is less helpful the closer you get to his theology.

50:41

So a lot of his practical books can be helpful. I honestly haven't read

50:47

Baxter as much as some of the others. I've read the Reformed Pastor, and I've read in Baxter's Christian Directory, which is a large counseling manual, but it was sometimes easy to forget this, that the

51:01

Puritans were not this monolithic group where they were all exactly the same.

51:07

So there were intramural debates, and there were different sides of theological debates even in the 17th century, and so you find that John Owen and Richard Baxter are pretty different, and they were sparring with one another, you know, in their books, and I find

51:29

Owen much more helpful when it comes to theology. But no less than the freedom of grace, the

51:37

Puritans also emphasize the power of God's grace. So I love the words of the

51:43

Old Hymn, he breaks the power of cancelled sin. He sets the prisoner free, a great Wesley hymn, and the

51:50

Puritans believe that, and they taught that, and they emphasize that, and so just as much as they emphasize the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone, so they emphasize the doctrine of sanctification, and how all those who are justified will also be sanctified.

52:07

They were by no means antinomians. They were not giving people license to sin. They were not abusing

52:13

God's grace. They believed that if God's grace touched us, it would change us, and that just as we are justified by God's grace, we're also regenerated, and we're made new creatures, new creation, and we're changed and transformed by His grace.

52:31

Well, we have to go over a midway break right now. It's a longer than normal break on the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format in morning drive, and in the evening, they require of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because they have to air public service announcements and other things that localize

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, and so they air those announcements while we air our globally heard commercials.

53:04

So therefore, I'm asking you to use this time wisely. Please write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as possible, so that you can more easily and frequently patronize our advertisers, which will enable us to remain on the air.

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Brian G. Hedges on The Puritans, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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01:11:43

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I'll be able to help you find a church, because as I said, I have lists all over the world. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today,

01:17:34

Brian G. Hedges, on his book that he has co -authored with Dr. Joel Beeky, Thriving Grace, 12

01:17:41

Ways the Puritans Fuel Spiritual Growth. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:17:47

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we have a listener in Dalton, Georgia, named

01:17:55

Andrew, and Andrew says,

01:18:02

Hey Brothers Chris and Brian, I was and am greatly benefited by your book on watchfulness, so thank you for your ministry.

01:18:13

My question is, it is my understanding that the Puritans banned the celebration of Easter at one point because they saw it as a government -mandated secular holiday.

01:18:25

So, what would wisdom dictate as to when we should celebrate these types of holidays, whether on the church's historic date of it, or otherwise on a different date?

01:18:37

What was the Puritans' chief objection here? That's Andrew from Dalton, Georgia, and of course, some churches, in following the example of the

01:18:47

Puritans, don't celebrate some of those holidays at all, like Christmas and Easter, but if you could.

01:18:55

Well, first of all, just thank you, Andrew, for your encouragement about the book

01:19:00

Watchfulness. I'm grateful for that. I'm not actually the scholar on the

01:19:07

Puritans. My co -author, Joel Beeky, is, and I wish he was on the program because he would probably be able to answer that question in much more detail than I can.

01:19:19

The Puritans, to my knowledge, whatever reaction they had to those kinds of holidays was probably a reaction to the emphasis on those holidays, the church calendar, the

01:19:34

Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Church. And to some degree,

01:19:39

I think, for the Puritans, it was a matter of just the principle of a free conscience in worship.

01:19:45

They didn't want to be required to do something that God's Word did not clearly command, and so that was at least part of their reaction.

01:19:56

I personally, on issues such as Christmas or Easter, don't follow the Puritans in that regard.

01:20:03

I think I've preached on the resurrection of Jesus every Easter Sunday for the last probably 17 years, 18 years, but I know that within Reformed churches, our stream, that there are different perspectives on that.

01:20:21

Some that are closer to the Puritans on that issue, but I can't give detail as to what all they thought.

01:20:29

There's a lot of Puritans I haven't read, and it's not an issue we covered in this book. Yes, and I think that I know folks on both sides of that issue, or those issues,

01:20:42

I should say, and I think that we have to all be careful that we do not harshly judge our brethren who disagree with us either on participating in those holidays or by refraining from them.

01:20:58

That's right. Romans 14, I think, would come into play here. You know, this is one of those matters that is indifferent, a diaphora, and we have freedom.

01:21:11

We have freedom in our own conscience, and we stand before the Lord. We'll stand before His judgment seat, but we're not to judge one another.

01:21:21

Andrew, please make sure you get us your full mailing address in Dalton, Georgia, because you have also won a free copy of the book we are addressing by Brian Hedges and Joel Beeky, Thriving Grace.

01:21:35

So please get us that address as soon as possible so that CVBBS .com,

01:21:41

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that out to you. And once again, we thank our friends at Reformation Heritage Books for their generosity in providing us with copies of this book.

01:21:54

We also have a question from Grady, a very faithful and loyal listener and financial supporter of this program.

01:22:06

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. And Grady says, Greetings, Brothers Chris and Brian.

01:22:13

I find it troublesome when I find a dig deeper in my biblical studies and make me think through what

01:22:24

I am reading. They were deep thinkers, seemed to fear

01:22:29

God more and made an impact on their families and congregants. Most of today's contemporary writers seem to be shallow unless they gather their wealth of knowledge from the

01:22:40

Puritans. Do you agree? Well, I certainly agree that the

01:22:48

Puritans do all of the things this brother says. They were deep thinkers and they do nourish us and help us in our spiritual lives.

01:22:57

And that's why we wrote this book, because we want to see more people reading the Puritans than do.

01:23:03

I think there are a number of great authors in the 20th and 21st century, but I do tend to agree that they usually are drawing from some of these old wells.

01:23:15

So, you know, you read a J .R. Packer or a Jerry Bridges or a John Piper or John MacArthur, they're quoting the

01:23:21

Puritans pretty often. Well, thank you,

01:23:26

Grady. And make sure you get us that address so you can also receive a free copy of the book we are addressing by Brian G.

01:23:35

Hedges and Dr. Joel Beeky, Thriving Grace. You've won a copy as well.

01:23:41

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York. And CJ wants to know, can you give us some pastoral advice on how we should determine whether our extra -biblical reading of the greats like the

01:24:02

Puritans and the Reformers and even contemporary giants of the faith that are biblically faithful, but it can eclipse our own study of Scripture?

01:24:12

Can you give us some guidelines and some helpful hints on how to balance our own reading and meditation and study?

01:24:24

Well, I think as a general rule of thumb, we should be reading Scripture daily. We should be following the example of the psalmist, someone meditating on the law of the

01:24:35

Lord day and night. Our delight should be in the law of the Lord. We should always, of course, view

01:24:41

Scripture as authoritative and anything else that we read is not authoritative.

01:24:47

It may be helpful, it may be edifying, but it's not our source of authority. So if someone is reading more of the

01:24:55

Puritans and reading the Puritans more consistently than they're reading the Bible itself, then yeah, those books are probably eclipsing

01:25:04

Scripture. So I think you begin with those personal devotional habits of reading

01:25:09

Scripture regularly, consistently. I really like to encourage people to read through the

01:25:15

Bible every year, so they're reading systematically, reading regularly. I've tried to follow the

01:25:22

Robert Murray McShane plan that takes me through the Old Testament once, the New Testament psalms twice, and I find that helpful.

01:25:31

So maybe start there, and then as you read other books, read them judiciously, pick good ones, and read things that are edifying, that help you with your prayer life, that help you with holiness, that help you understand

01:25:44

Scripture better. But don't feel the obligation to read any particular Puritan book or to even read the

01:25:51

Puritans. You're not commanded to read the Puritans, but certainly we're under obligation to read and meditate on God's Word.

01:25:58

Well, if you could tell us something about how the Puritans engage our wills in the practice and in the practical pursuit of holiness.

01:26:10

Yeah, you know, there's so much that could be said about the Puritans on holiness, because virtually everything they wrote was geared towards holiness.

01:26:21

I just want to highlight two things. So the first thing is how the

01:26:27

Puritans help us understand holiness in a relationship to union with Christ.

01:26:33

They viewed union with Christ as the source of our sanctification, the source of our holiness, so that it's impossible for us to be holy apart from abiding in Christ, being united to Christ by faith.

01:26:48

And one of the great examples of this is Walter Marshall, who wrote a book called

01:26:53

The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification. It's the book that Professor John Murray of Westminster Seminary thought was the best book on sanctification ever written.

01:27:06

And there's an interesting story about Marshall that he actually was struggling, even as a pastor, he was struggling with sin.

01:27:14

He didn't feel like he was growing in godliness and holiness. He had a very troubled conscience, and he was trying to apply things he was reading.

01:27:24

He was even reading guys like Richard Baxter, we talked about a little while ago, he's not finding it helpful. And he finally went to an older Puritan minister named

01:27:31

Thomas Goodwin, and he just confessed all of his sins, trying to get some help. And he got through his list of sins, and Thomas Goodwin looked at him and said, you have left off the worst sin of all, the sin of unbelief.

01:27:45

And then Goodwin began to point him to Jesus Christ and the importance of faith in Jesus Christ. And that was a turning point in Walter Marshall's life, where he really began to focus on Christ and on what

01:27:56

Christ has done and in faith, his own faith in Jesus Christ. And then that led to a series of sermons that was published posthumously as this book,

01:28:08

The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification. And it's a wonderful book where he points us to Christ and to trust in Christ.

01:28:16

And our focus is not that we're constantly looking, you know, watching our feet, how are we walking, but our eyes are looking to Jesus, the author and the finisher of our faith.

01:28:27

But the Puritans are also very helpful on the practical aspects of holiness, and in particular on the means of grace and how things like spiritual disciplines can help us with holiness.

01:28:39

They didn't call it spiritual disciplines like we do today, but they wrote a lot about those things, such as prayer and meditation and corporate worship and even watchfulness.

01:28:51

So the book I wrote, Watchfulness, is largely based on Puritan writings, and they included that as a spiritual discipline that would help with holiness.

01:28:59

And I would commend in particular a book by Richard Rogers called Holy Helps for a

01:29:05

Godly Life, been recently republished by Reformation Heritage Books. And it was actually the first Protestant manual on spiritual disciplines that was ever written.

01:29:16

It was written in the very early 1600s and written kind of as a reaction to the writings of the

01:29:22

Jesuits and the Roman Catholic writings on spiritual disciplines. And it's interesting that today spiritual disciplines are pretty popular in Christian publishing, but so much of the time authors are pulling from the mystics and Roman Catholic sources and the contemplative movement and so on, and they're really ignoring this rich vein of treasure that you find in the

01:29:48

Puritans and in the Reformed writings. And Richard Rogers is a great place to go, and it'll help on the practical level of how to pursue godliness.

01:30:00

Great. Let's see here, we have RJ in White Plains, New York.

01:30:07

RJ says, I heard once from a Catholic friend who, believe it or not, loved the

01:30:14

Puritans, that Puritan homes very commonly would have a human skull on their mantles in order to remind them about their own mortality.

01:30:27

Is this myth or truth? I don't know. I've not heard that before, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

01:30:38

And of course, you'll have a lot of explanation to do when your friends come over for time of fellowship at your house and you have a skull there on the mantel.

01:30:51

In our day and age, it may have more unnecessary negative baggage attached to it.

01:30:57

People will think that you're involved in some kind of satanic cult or something if you have that. Certainly wouldn't be appropriate for a

01:31:04

Christmas tree, but then again, the Puritans didn't think Christmas trees were appropriate in any way, shape, or form.

01:31:11

Right. Oh, RJ, you have won a free copy of the book by Brian Hedges and Joel Beeky, Thriving Grace, 12

01:31:23

Ways the Puritans Fuel Spiritual Growth. Make sure we have your full mailing address in White Plains, New York.

01:31:34

We have Johnny from Queens, New York. John Owen and other

01:31:39

Puritans often direct us to modify the deeds... Let's see.

01:31:45

I don't know if this is a typo. Puritans often direct us to mortify the deeds.

01:31:55

And I think this number three is supposed to be of the body. I don't know where the three came from.

01:32:01

I think Johnny in Queens, New York, when he realized we were giving books away, very hastily typed this.

01:32:10

So let me start again. John Owen and other Puritans often direct us to mortify the deeds of the body as a means to holiness.

01:32:19

What practical steps would you have us engage in to kill besetting sin on a daily basis?

01:32:27

That's a great question. Yes. Yes, John Owen wrote the

01:32:33

Puritan book on this, The Mortification of Sin and Believers, and famously said, Be killing sin or sin will be killing you.

01:32:41

It's a wonderful book. The most important things that Owen says in that book are, first, that you can't mortify sin on your own.

01:32:49

You can only do it through the power of the Holy Spirit. Of course, that's what Paul says in Romans 8 .13.

01:32:54

If you, by the Spirit, mortify the deeds of the body, you will live. So dependence on the

01:33:01

Holy Spirit is crucial. Owen also says that it's only through faith in Christ that we can mortify our sins.

01:33:08

And so he tells us that we have to fix our faith on Jesus Christ. We have to look to Christ in His fullness.

01:33:15

We look to Him for His strength. We look to Him for His power, and we trust in Him. That's essential.

01:33:21

Without faith in Christ, without the Holy Spirit, we maybe can do some behavior modification, but we can't really deal with the root of sin in our hearts.

01:33:30

We can't deal with the motivations, and we won't really effectively mortify sin.

01:33:37

But with those two things in place, there are practical things we can do. Maybe just to highlight one or two, we make no provision for the flesh to fulfill its desires,

01:33:47

Romans 13 .14. That practically means that there are some things that you shouldn't do if it's going to lead you into temptation.

01:33:57

Maybe there are websites you shouldn't go to, or TV shows you shouldn't watch, or places you shouldn't go that you shouldn't frequent if they will lead you into temptation or lead you into sin.

01:34:10

I think we even should think about things like social media. There's so much discontentment and so much negativity that happens in social media.

01:34:21

There are good uses of social media, but sometimes I think it just brings out the worst in people.

01:34:27

If you're struggling with envy or discontent, maybe you need to refrain from Facebook or Twitter.

01:34:34

Social media bringing out the worst in people? I've never even heard of the concept. Obviously, I'm joking.

01:34:45

Yes, I have learned, maybe not perfectly, but I don't typically these days, as I used to, get involved in these wars and fights and disputes on Facebook and other places that were becoming a vacuum cleaner of my time.

01:35:10

Well, Johnny, thanks for that excellent question, and I believe you've won the last copy of the book that we're giving away,

01:35:19

Thriving Grace, so make sure that we have your full mailing address in Queens, New York, and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com

01:35:27

will ship this book out to you. We're actually still waiting for the books to arrive from Reformation Heritage Books, but they should be arriving at any day now, because they've already been shipped a couple of days ago.

01:35:42

But be patient, and you should be getting them soon. We are now going to our final break, and therefore, if you would like to ask a question of your own, send it in now.

01:35:57

Sorry, there's no more books to offer you, but first -time questioners always win free

01:36:03

New American Standard Bibles. Always remember that. But our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:36:09

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, your city and state of residence, your country of residence, if you live outside the

01:36:16

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

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p .m. Eastern Time. And we are now back with Brian Hedges.

01:51:34

He somehow got dumped off the phone line. You're there, Brian? I'm here.

01:51:41

Yeah, I don't know what happened there, but glad we got reconnected. Amen. Well, one of the ways that the

01:51:48

Puritans help us is to inspire our hearts to seek God's face in prayer. Can you explain a little further?

01:51:56

Yeah, the Puritans emphasize prayer a lot and are helpful in a number of different ways.

01:52:04

I think the Puritans are especially convicting in talking about private prayer, what they call secret prayer or closet prayer.

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And I've already mentioned and we've agreed that Thomas Brooks is particularly helpful.

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And he wrote a book called The Secret Key to Prayer. I think he called it The Privy Key to Prayer.

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And for me, it's just one of the most convicting books I've read on the importance of your private prayer life.

01:52:34

And it's just full of exhortation and motivation and practical directions and instruction.

01:52:40

And we just go on. There are multiple books like that by the Puritans. They help us. We have an anonymous listener who wants to know, do the

01:52:50

Puritans or a specific Puritan that you can recommend give advice on helping to prevent our wandering minds when we pray?

01:53:01

I find praying at least meaningful prayer at great length very difficult. And it mystifies me why it is so difficult, because I do truly love the

01:53:10

Lord. And I truly do need to hear from Him in answers to prayer.

01:53:17

But for some reason, it is very difficult for me to at great length, pray to Him, commune with Him in a meaningful fashion.

01:53:27

Yes, another Puritan I recommend is Matthew Henry wrote a wonderful book called

01:53:33

A Method for Prayer. And essentially, Henry just guides his readers through different aspects of prayer and provides some sample prayers that they can pray and just ways to direct and frame one's prayer life.

01:53:47

It's kind of like an outline to direct praying. And I also think praying aloud can be helpful.

01:53:54

I think lots of believers struggle with wandering thoughts and prayer. I have as well. But praying out loud, if you can find a place where it's private and quiet, you're not being overheard.

01:54:03

And actually vocalizing and praying out loud to the Lord, I think can really help with your wandering mind and just articulate your thoughts.

01:54:13

And Matthew Henry would be encouraging to you. Well, how do we use the

01:54:20

Puritans as an aid to sustain us in suffering with the of God?

01:54:29

Well, once again, the Puritans, they wrote often and much about God's providence and about trusting

01:54:37

God in suffering and about contentment with the Lord's providence in our lives.

01:54:44

And they help us by pointing us to God's mercy and grace as our

01:54:49

Father and His wisdom as a sovereign God, a God who reigns, and to what they call the mystery of providence and how

01:54:58

God, in His guidance and His ruling of all events in our lives, how

01:55:04

He is working out His mysterious plan and His purpose. A wonderful book in that regard is

01:55:10

John Flavel, The Mystery of Providence, and it's another one of those Puritan paperbacks published by Banner of Truth.

01:55:18

Now, one of the 12 ways that you and Dr. Beakey list in Thriving in Grace that the

01:55:26

Puritans fuel spiritual growth is probably unexpected, especially in the language of the actual title of that chapter,

01:55:37

The Puritans Search Our Souls with Profound Psychological Insight. If you could offer some help on that.

01:55:46

Yeah, you know, I've already mentioned that the Puritans were physicians of the soul, so they were pastors and preachers, but they really dealt often with people's emotional and spiritual and psychological struggles.

01:56:05

So they were counselors, and their books are just filled with counsel on how to deal with the problems of the soul, the problems of the heart.

01:56:15

So the Puritans obviously predate modern psychology by several hundred years, and so what you don't find is the kind of psychological language that you find in so many books today.

01:56:28

But they are amazingly insightful in understanding how the human heart works and in how to specifically apply biblical truth to the human heart.

01:56:40

And they're also very compassionate. One of the great Puritans was Richard Sibbes, and he wrote a book called

01:56:47

The Bruised Reed, and it's a very compassionate book based on that text, the smoking wax you will not quench and the bruised reed he will not break.

01:56:58

It's famously a book that really helped Martin Lloyd -Jones at a difficult point in his life. And I can just point to book after book that's like that, where the

01:57:07

Puritans are addressing a specific emotional, spiritual, psychological problem, whether it's discontentment or discouragement, depression, anger, and they address these problems very holistically.

01:57:22

So they certainly look at the sinful aspects and point us to obedience, but they also do so with compassion.

01:57:31

They understand that there are often circumstantial things in our lives that cause us problems or that cause us trouble.

01:57:39

They point us to our ways of thinking. They help us understand how our temperaments figure into these specific trials and temptations.

01:57:50

So when I read the Puritans, I feel like I'm reading someone who knows the way I think and can give me counsel that's particularly helpful.

01:58:01

And I think other readers will discover that as well. Well, we are out of time. We didn't get a chance to tackle all 12, but we were just giving brief overviews of the main headings of this book, the main ways, the 12 ways that the

01:58:19

Puritans fuel spiritual growth. So we hope that that whet your appetite to get a hold of this book as soon as possible.

01:58:27

If you want to find out more about the book, you can go to heritagebooks .org, the publishers, heritagebooks .org.

01:58:34

I would urge you that after you go to that website that you purchase the book from one of our sponsors.

01:58:41

This way you help both Heritage Books and our sponsors because Reformation Heritage Books has to, or should

01:58:52

I say Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvvbs .com, has to purchase these books from Reformation Heritage Books.

01:59:00

So they will both win when you go to cvvbs .com, cvvbs .com

01:59:06

to make your purchase of Thriving Grace, 12 Ways the Puritans Fuel Spiritual Growth by our guest

01:59:13

Brian G. Hedges and Joel R. Beeke. And I also want you to know that Redeemer Church, their website for Redeemer Church in Niles, Michigan is redeemer .ch,

01:59:30

redeemer .ch. Do you have any other contact information or anything else you care to share for our listeners before we go off the air?

01:59:37

No, everything you've shared is great. So thank you for that. And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

01:59:46

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.