The Ignatian Strawman Extinguished

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00:29

Well greetings, welcome to the dividing sorry about a lot of stuff here. I can't

00:36

I Can't get any lighting in this room. No matter how hard I try it looks terrible having that light back there and only half my face is that I look like I'm Look like I'm making a ransom demand or something

00:55

Yeah long day in the truck long day in the truck and then as I got close to Amarillo Where I am right now this incredible windstorm

01:06

Picked up I had seen prognostication of it and I stopped at my first What's the beaver

01:20

Whatever that gas station is it's big and huge and there's you know, they got 400 pumps or whatever

01:25

It was I had seen they're advertising it. They had deaf Yeah, two pumps that had deaf big deal

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But I got in there and the wind Was was so strong already

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That I wasn't sure I'd be able to get out of the truck And once I was out of the truck, I wasn't sure I was be able to get back into the truck

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It was Wow Amazing and then my hotel is Bucky's yeah

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Bucky's. Thank you My hotel is in an area where they're building a lot of stuff.

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So there's there's just open dry red dirt fields all around it and I don't even know if I'm gonna be able to see out of the windows of my truck when

02:10

I get into it in the morning I had to go out there, you know and get stuff bring it in which I hate to do

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It's why I don't like going to hotels and I washed my face off after I'm not sure they could be able to save that washcloth.

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I think Wow And I've not experienced wind like this 60 65 miles an hour, it's just whoo amazing trucks getting off the freeway because it was just blowing too hard and pretty well and As a result, my heart is uber wonky right now.

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I Really wanted to be in good spirits and good shape for this program because I think it's important But I'm just gonna have to trust the

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Lord give me the Strength to get through it if my eyes cross and I fall out of the screen just shut it down and don't worry about That's just what happens so Why in the world are we here?

03:07

Well And why would I be pushing this, you know, don't feel good Haven't been able to get my heart back into regular rhythm.

03:15

And so why why are we doing this? Well I had two debates this weekend and I'd like to do a debate review of the actual substance of the debates and Who knows maybe tomorrow we can do something like that at the last stop that I had before I get home long days long long distances, but What happened is?

03:44

the Debate with Joe Heschmeier on is the mass a propitiatory sacrifice took place on Saturday evening now

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Sunday I preached at 12 -5 church and then they have a

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Fellowship meal and then there's a sermon discussion afterwards And so I didn't get out of there till a little bit before 2

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I would say I wanted to get about four hours of driving in Basically drove across the state of Arkansas just to make these next two days even a little bit shorter and Once I got into Where I was last night.

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I Started seeing things I really do try to avoid Twitter and things like that while driving.

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It's Probably a wise thing and I started seeing things And all of a sudden but what's going on is

04:45

Cameron Bertuzzi a convert Roman Catholicism had this

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Twitter threat where he's going after me and It was about During the cross -examination

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So this was not a part of the debate as far as the presentations anything like that during cross -examination one of the cross -examination

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Sections Joe Heschmeier Brought up the standard citation from Ignatius in his letter to the

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Smyrnians. I'm assuming that's what it was. I haven't again. I'm traveling I haven't had time to even download any of this stuff or anything like that but he brought up the

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Ignatius quote that I've had a Multi -part video series on posted and I I looked

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I looked today. It's it's actually on my YouTube channel because my YouTube channel was the first one that we got to When YouTube first started you can only you do 10 -minute segments until you earned a certain number of followers or something and then you could do longer stuff and So it's broken up into little eight nine ten minute segments

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I mean with resolutions like 640 by 480 or something. It's a long time ago.

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I think it said 17 years So that would be I didn't know YouTube was around 17 years ago, but that's what it said when

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I looked at So I Had dealt with this stuff who it was called who reads

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Ignatius in context and And so as soon as he said it

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I'm like, okay As we're gonna see and we're gonna walk through it strength permitting

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I Knew where I was going what I was gonna do is I was gonna say what I said then and what I'll say now and what?

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I'll be able to substantiate but I'll be able to demonstrate from the text that what

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Ignatius is doing is He is providing an anti Docetic Argument a polemic against docetism the docetics believe that Jesus did not have a physical body so they were

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Gnostics and John warned about them first John and Ignatius warns about them in his letters as well.

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So normally, I would have simply given that as a quick response and Directed people to the fuller conversation in my videos online but a couple of months ago

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I was having conversation with a brother online Who's been doing a lot of study?

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Into Ignatius and especially the Ignatian corpus. Now, what in the world is that? Well, what a lot of people don't understand

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About documents in church history is that When you deal with Roman Catholicism, the

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Roman Catholic Church has utilized forgeries For many many centuries, in fact, it's interesting

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Joe Hirschmeier is an attorney. I debated another attorney on The Perpetual I think it's a perpetual virginity of Mary.

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Yeah, it's perpetual Virginia Mary on Long Island a number of years ago and during the debate he gave this quote from Augusta and I had never heard of it before and But back then, you know you couldn't even now during debate it would be hard to Check something like that though it could be done much more quickly than it could back then maybe during a break or something you can and After the debate in you know the weeks afterwards, you know, we dig this quote out.

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It's a forgery Augustan didn't say it and I'm not saying my opponent knew that but the fact the matter is

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Rome has a long history all I gotta say is Donation of Constantine. All I've got to say is Pseudo -Isidore and decretals and these are

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Forged works That had tremendous impact On the defense and the of of the papal claims the building up of the papacy things like that and so There were a lot of forged works.

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For example Milito Sardis Really important witness in the second late second century

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Deity of Christ Canon issues But guess what? There's also epistles by what we call pseudo

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Milito and So it was very common Sadly for a long time if you wanted your your book to get read

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And nobody knew who in the world you were you would Put someone's name on it.

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That was much better known than you are and Really honestly until Around the time of the

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Renaissance Europe suffered from anachronism and I've told a story many times before you you see paintings from the 11th 12th century of David in the

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Bible and he has armor on he's riding a horse and lives in a castle because That's where Kings live and that's how they fight and they have armor and they ride horses and stuff like that and People assume things that always been the way they were then and that makes it very hard to detect

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Forgeries, how do you detect a forgery? Well, give me an example the Gospel of Barnabas That the

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Muslims love to promote actually comes from about the 13th century has nothing to do with biblical

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Barnabas, but It's it's so laughably bad Because it mentions all sorts of stuff that didn't exist in the first century and Really only came to exist, you know a thousand years later and so today, it's a lot easier to recognize these things because We understand

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Anachronism we understand that, you know Well, you've see it you see it all the time.

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You know that mean you see on on Twitter or Facebook or whatever you use Where where it's got

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Abraham Lincoln and it's a bit as Abraham Lincoln said don't believe everything you see on the Internet You know and and it's supposed to be funny because obviously

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Abraham Lincoln had no earthly idea what the Internet would be or it certainly didn't exist during his day

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There's an example of anachronism but the problem is Rome has a long history of Utilizing forgeries that we can recognize by the presence of anachronism

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To substantiate our claims. And so there is an entire when we talk about the Ignatian corpus

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In its broadest application That is

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All the works that are attributed to Ignatius who's the Bishop of Antioch Who was martyred between 107 and 108 109 all of those dates?

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We don't have records someplace that say that There's a reasoning process that goes into coming up with these numbers and and that's what

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I was taught in seminary and I had a real interest in those things.

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So I I got the Best editions you could get at the time in the 1980s

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Bishop Lightfoot's Introduction and his translation and the Greek text and and that's what

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I've always used and most people back in those days that's that's very bit used and By that point in time

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It had become recognized that a lot of what was attributed to Ignatius Had nothing to do with Ignatius it was written long afterwards when it's hard to say

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When you look at the Ignatian corpus Generally what you hear people talking about is the middle recension which is generally called the

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Genuine epistles there are seven and The generally accepted idea and this is what

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I've always taught as well It's what I was taught what I've taught others that these were written as Ignatius was going from Antioch to Rome to be martyred now why they would do that is

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An interesting question that people have brought up since then. Why why would you? spend the money

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To send somebody from Antioch all the way to Rome to execute them because it would be highly unusual for the

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The people in Rome who are gonna see this execution know even who this guy was some of the Christians might but anyway

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But anyway allegedly as he's going to Rome he writes these seven letters and then the longer recension is

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Especially in the in the Latin is generally in the Latin and has If you compared that with the middle recension considered to be genuine in Greek It's hard to it's hard to even figure out how they're related.

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I mean, there's just so much added stuff and Redaction and editing and and stuff like that.

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And then you've got a shorter recension in Syriac that's Basically based on the middle recension

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But edited down when by whom? Nobody knows. Nobody knows so This is the

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Ignatian corpus and some of the pseudo Ignatian stuff is Pretty wild pretty crazy there's

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Believe it or not. There's a letter that allegedly Ignatius wrote to the Virgin Mary while she was still alive asking questions of her

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Just just and you can find you you can find

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Roman Catholics even to this day Promoting that kind of thing as part of tradition.

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You know, there's a tradition that says this as a tradition that says that well It's a tradition that has no connection to history, but there you go so The The works that are attributed to Ignatius No one else that I know of Polycarp, you know, you don't have that kind of complexity with books like the

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Didache or the Apostolic Constitutions or Irenaeus Any of the second century writers

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Justin you just now will you have later? Forgeries attached to pretty much all their names.

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I haven't I haven't run into a pseudo Irenaeus stuff, but yeah, that was the whole point was you had people

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Will use those better -known names to get their books going and so there might be but to have entire recensions

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To where you have to identify them as the longer and the shorter in the middle and they're in different languages

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And all the rest is kind of stuff Ignatius's epistles are a mess and I'm not even talking now about Variations in What's considered to be the genuine

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Ignatian epistles such as textual variation Because the earliest manuscripts that we have of the gen what it called the genuine epistle remember that's a that's a modern term

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Nobody 500 years ago was talking about the genuine 600 years the genuine

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Ignatian epistles That's post Renaissance After people started going.

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Oh, hey, we need to look for anachronism and stuff like that. So that's more of a modern description and You know those the earliest manuscripts we have for the genuine epistles are from the 11th century

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So that's a thousand years After the earliest dating

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That we would that we would give to Ignatius's epistles again Normally the earliest you'll find will be in the first decade of the second century.

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So 107 108 somewhere on it so I get asked this question and I have been having conversations over the past number of weeks and months with a brother

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Who may get to join me next week to talk about this stuff once we're back to the

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Big studio and we can put stuff up on the screen. I'm in a hotel room I can't even I can't even show you text.

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I can't put the Bible text up. I can't put Ignatius up I can't put anything up right now. We're gonna fix that eventually.

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It will be available. Even if I have to do an emergency Driving trip like I just did but I can't right now.

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So I'm somewhat limited You know, I don't have my normally I'd have light foot in my hand right here something like that well

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Is on there somewhere? Because I have that in accordance and stuff But I can't show that to you.

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So I'm somewhat limited as to how in -depth I can go right now But This gentleman and I have been his brother and I have been chatting and he's been throwing this stuff at me

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What do you think about this? What do you think about that? And he's throwing articles That I've not seen before They are they've they've come out and I forgot to forgive me let me pull this up here open recent

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Of course you're not gonna make this easy for me Although a lot of this stuff has been put together

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Here it is since I was the seminary and since I last taught in this area and Pretty much from Starting in 1990 and then and really in the past 20 years

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There have been all sorts of articles that have been pointing to serious problems with the standard story that has been told about Ignatius and You know, they come to different conclusions.

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Some can go to radical conclusions questioning whether Ignatius existed But most of them were just focused on well the dating doesn't seem right here

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They're they're raising questions of anachronism and anachronism is the whole issue that you know

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We've looked at before talking about that and I And by the way, it was

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Lorenzo Bala who first sort of recognized that There was the problem of anachronism by comparing the current manuscripts

21:54

Latin Vulgate with Jerome's commentaries on the scriptures and he demonstrated that The texts in the

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Vulgate had been changed over time in comparison to what Jerome Jerome's gonna put his own translation in his own commentary.

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So but Jerome's commentaries aren't gonna be copied as often as The text

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Latin Vulgate and so I just point out that when Bala did his work

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He didn't publish it because to Publish that kind of stuff

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Would have resulted in his being burned So there were other issues Going on at this particular point in time

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And of course that would have been burned by Rome So anyways

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This this brother, well, I guess if I'm gonna if I'm going to Possibly have him on next week.

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I'm talking about Timothy Easley and Some of you on Twitter may have been following some of the stuff.

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He's commented on this. I got the feeling he said recently He was gonna sort of drop the Ignatius stuff for a while. Well, sorry

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It's all your fault. Anyways So Timothy sent me one article that I looked at This was in currents and biblical research 2020 volume 19 and I Will undoubtedly

23:25

Slaughter this name because I've never heard of the gentleman before Doesn't mean anything. This is he's in the liberal arts department

23:32

Presbyterian University and Theological Seminary in the Republic of Korea Jonathan Luka do or Luka do

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I would say Luka do Probably a lot of vowels there. But anyways, let me let me read you the

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Abstract and then a little bit of the introduction of this The title is the date and authenticity of the

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Ignatian letters an outline of recent discussions That's really useful to give an outline of recent discussions

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This article examines recent studies of the date and authenticity of the letters of Ignatius of Antioch Although the debate has a long history

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This article focuses on the most recent period of this debate from roughly 1997 through 2018

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While not wanting to diminish the differences between contributors to this debate three general views can be adduced this article begins by highlighting the major players and formative contributors to each view of Particular note in this most recent phase of debate is the separation of the date of the letters from the question of their authenticity

24:34

The article next turns to consider the primary pieces of evidence that are utilized when considering Ignatius's date

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The historical value of the Eusebian evidence the possibility of interpolations within polycarps

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Philippians Another one of the early references to Ignatius and Ignatius's interactions with second sophistic rhetoric

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The conclusion inquires about whether there is other evidence that might be utilized to aid scholars and dating

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Evaluating the Ignatian letters more securely and then in the introduction Although the authenticity of the

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Ignatian letters has been disputed since at least the 17th century I'm gonna skip over all the names and dates

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Since you're probably not gonna be writing them down anyways Since 17th century the debate has received renewed energy since the late 1990s and shows few signs of slowing

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While Ignatian scholars have continued to study the various textual recensions in which

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Ignatius's letters are found The ongoing discussion about date and authorship interrupts the consensus that Ignatius's letters are authentically

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Ignatian and date to the early 2nd century This consensus was worked out in large part by Theodore Zahn and JB Lightfoot Lightfoot the material that I generally used in school and when teaching

25:57

Although Ignatian authenticity was challenged during the 20th century by Tramiel Weisenberg and skip the names

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Elicited them of most Immediate responses the consensus held through most of the 20th century however

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It remains difficult to explain every peculiarity within the Ignatian letters if they are dated early in the 2nd century

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Reinhard Huebner's work on 2nd century theology Thus inspired hope and at least one

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Ignatian scholar during the 1990s that our understanding of the letters date and authenticity would be sharpened

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Citing Huebner Christine Trevith wrote that Reinhard Huebner may shed light on this issue in the near future

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While Huebner's arguments have hardly settled the issue of when Ignatius's letters should be dated His studies have had a powerful effect on all

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Ignatian scholarship that has followed and have opened the possible dates for Ignatius's letter To include any of the years between roughly 105 and 180

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Okay, that's a that's a major shift. Okay This article examines recent scholarship on the question of the date and authenticity of the middle recension

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Also called the genuine letters of the letters of Ignatius of Antioch It begins by looking at the work of Huebner and and it goes on so I again it's it's titled the date and authenticity of the nation letters and outlining recent discussions, but so why

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Why read all that well There is a video That Timothy sent me and my recollection is this was a

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Roman Catholic fellow who's just about to finish his PhD In Ignatius and he had all sorts of graphs and charts in this

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YouTube video Laying out the real sticky questions about How we know what we claim to have known for a long time

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About the dating origin source relationship recensions editing All sorts of stuff like that and Some of it

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You know, I was I was playing and having a conversation with him eventually when I had a little more time to delve into it

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You know some of it is saying is dealing with stuff like I think

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Ignatius is dealing with this subject here and That didn't come about until like 160 well if you're familiar with Like Bart Ehrman's stuff where he denies

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The first second Timothy Titus Ephesians Colossians were written by Paul He does that Based on his

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Formulation of what he thought the early church looked like and since first second Timothy and Titus present a

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Advanced state of the organization of the church that he didn't think existed back then and that's why he

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Rejects him as being Pauline. Well, I think that's getting the cart before the horse.

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And so I'm Really not sure of that kind of argumentation to be honest with you

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But it's part of a lot of conversation I skipped over the names, but there's just all sorts of articles

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That are cited Just in that one article about How this is being struggled with at this time and that there is this scholarly discussion going on concerning when

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Ignatius live What he wrote Do we really know what he wrote

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What about the recensions? What about the editing all this kind of stuff this subject is going on so back to the debate

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Joe Hashemeyer asks me about the Texan Smyrnians and a few years ago.

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I would have just simply said He was arguing against the docetus.

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It's very plain language. We can go here here here and moved on but since I Was looking at these articles watch the video

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See all these charts with all the differences and questions about this out and the other thing and since I have never

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Raised these issues. I've never I've never put a little asterisk next to a citation of Ignatius And I've cited

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Ignatius I've cited Ignatius in to Muslims Unitarians Roman Catholics because when he writes the

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Romans even though he addresses the bishops of other churches He doesn't address a bishop in Rome because Rome had developed a monarchical episcopate yet So that's actually evidence of very early period here

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Though some people might use that argue differently But I had never I had never

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Acknowledged This new information because it was new to me and if you think that that's somehow strange

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I remember when I Started doing a PhD work down at at Potter's room a number of years ago

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My dr. Votter did his PhD under Metzger. He knows textual criticism very very well

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But he and I both learned about CBGM together And we were we were teaching these these things we were in active in these things but but there's so much specialization

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That unless you start a new project it's gonna push you out of your area out of where you've taught before it's very easy for a lot of these conversations to not end up in your in your attention, so I Started To all

32:14

I wanted to do was to briefly briefly acknowledge the controversy concerning the

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Ignatian Corpus and While this new stuff I wasn't aware of I I wrote an article and it's available online in 1990 so 35 years ago

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I'm Refuting the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's abuse of Ignatius. They had in 1989.

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They did a series of articles in the Watchtower and They just Massacred Ignatius.

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Well, I massacred everybody It's very you can tell it was very purposeful. It was they knew what they were doing and When they presented

33:02

Ignatius's views they only quoted from pseudo Ignatian epistles They did not quote from the genuine epistles

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Because the genuine epistles have numerous references the deity of Christ especially in the letter to the

33:18

Ephesians and so I Had to deal with the pseudo

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Ignatian of it and stuff and things like that. I don't I may have mentioned

33:30

The difference between the Greek and the Latin and some of the recension stuff I don't remember if I if I actually dove into that very much

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But it's not that I wasn't aware of that element that's been going on as that article said that was just reading you from for centuries

33:44

Not that I have been doing that for centuries. My grandkids thinks I have but anyway and So I had dealt with that At that particular point in time and 17 years ago when

33:55

I did the who reads Ignatius in context videos I don't believe I got into that at all because I was just dealing with Steve Ray's use of that particular quotation.

34:04

So it would have just Dragged this off and stuff. We didn't so what

34:10

I wanted to do was simply say there's a lot of questions about the

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Ignatian corpus and the various recensions Today But if we take the text as we have it

34:27

This is an antidecetic polemic And it's not presenting what you think it's presenting what

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Roman Catholics things so it wouldn't have wouldn't have taken me very long but Joe likes to interrupt.

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He's an attorney And he interrupted me Before I could even finish what

34:47

I was saying. And so I think part of the problem is there's talking over one another and I had mentioned that there that in the modern conversation

34:59

That there's so much confusion. It has led some to question whether Ignatius even existed.

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I didn't say that I was questioning But it has led some to question whether Ignatius even existed and then he's the one that brought up the term consensus

35:17

And when I said, yes, it's a consensus I was talking about The consensus is that there is a lot of serious

35:27

Conversation to be had Not only the what has been known for a long time about the longer middle shorter and that kind of stuff but the new conversations that are focused more upon the

35:44

Middle recension and Whether it contains evidence of anachronism that it's

35:53

Coming from a much later time period because what if It comes from the article said between 105 and 180.

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What if it is 180? Well that that changes the Emperor that was under the periods of persecution.

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It's still a period of persecution. Sure But it changes the whole

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Tenor and and Content of the

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Ignatian story Now I Can't get into this right now because like I said

36:33

Sitting in a hotel room is not the best time to doing this, but then that Leads to where their interpolations in polycarp

36:44

Philippians. He mentions that because polycarp mentions Ignatius Irenaeus mentions

36:52

Ignatius, but if but if Ignatius is writing late in the 180s What about Irenaeus and and of course what that then means is well, when's the earliest manuscripts we have of their writings and It's very different.

37:08

I Irenaeus's works against Gnosticism vitally important just just super super important stuff.

37:15

So it has a completely different textual character But still in general most works of antiquity the time period between when they're written our first exit manuscripts between 500 and a thousand years and that's what you have with Ignatius about thousand years

37:35

Not so much with With Irenaeus because his works were so widely disseminated.

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So we have fragments and stuff like that earlier manuscripts And so that's not unusual to have that length of time

37:50

But we it does point out why it's so neat that we have things like the papyri for the

37:57

New Testament Which put us significantly closer to the time of writing because the longer the the gap is the silent gap is

38:07

The harder it is to have high levels of confidence as to time origination

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Transmission and stuff like that. And by the way Timothy I saw him on Twitter last night.

38:21

Someone actually wrote to him. I Remember Catholic wrote to him and said all we have of the

38:27

New Testament books are copies of copies of copies That's Bart Ehrman, by the way But we have the original writings of Ignatius And I'm just like whoa

38:37

Really? That would be one of the greatest finds of all time that that would rival the book of Abraham in the

38:45

Pearl of Great Price No, we do. We do not have the original writings of Ignatius, but there are people who think these kinds of things so What ended up happening is

38:58

I eventually? Was able to get back to my point in answering a cross -examination question

39:07

And point out this is a antidissettic polemic went from there then in the closing statement

39:15

He went last because he went first that doesn't always work that way But it did in this particular debate and the problem is when you have last last you get to say whatever you want you're not gonna have any rebuttal and I felt that Joe Heschmeier really, you know took advantage of that Inappropriately and he said and he basically said that I'm a

39:38

Ignatian mythologist I don't think Ignatius existed and I had not said that I had said that the current discussions have led people some people to believe that Ignatius didn't even exist and obviously if the origination of the sources isn't until the late second century if You're going to insist

39:57

Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch at the beginning of the second century And he was martyred at the beginning of the second century.

40:02

Well, then he didn't write those things if it's that late So that's the issue That's that that's what the conversation is about and I haven't come to final conclusions on a lot of that stuff

40:15

But at least I'm looking at it and it doesn't seem a lot of other people are there's a bunch of people making comments online right now that I haven't wrestled with any of this stuff at all and it's painfully obvious and They're jumping into this not for issues of scholarship or anything like that.

40:39

They're jumping into this for clicks likes and We've got white now.

40:45

We're gonna get him we know he's traveling home and he's not gonna be able to do almost anything and so we can jump on we can do these videos and Cameron Bertuzzi In his

40:56

Twitter thread and saying The only reason he's doing this is because of how massively important Ignatius is to the demonstration of early

41:04

Eucharistic sacrifice so Has has he ever responded to what

41:11

I posted 17 years ago on? That very text not that I know

41:18

Could he I don't think he could Has ever read what I wrote in 1990 on Ignatius when

41:24

I was scholar in residence at Grand Canyon College Frank and University get which one they've changed in there No, I'm sure he hasn't and and wouldn't care one way or the other and so I don't the

41:40

His mind reading his attempt at mind reading failed miserably it's disrespectful.

41:46

It's mean -spirited But He's gonna stick with it because I understand that he and some other guys

41:54

Including Joe Heshmire are going to do a video tomorrow at 1 o 'clock Central Standard Time One of the reasons

42:01

I'm pushing myself to do this despite the fact that I feel still feel horrible is

42:07

I'm going to try to save them from absolutely face planting Because anyone who listens to what

42:15

I've already said here checks out the sources goes and sees the stuff from 17 years ago reads the article from 1990 listens to what

42:23

I'm talking about checks it out with light foot in regards to Resentions and all the rest of this kind of stuff looks up the article that I just cited

42:32

All that kind of stuff is gonna realize. Yeah, he's just talking about the current state of things and he's just trying to be honest in Dealing with the fact that Ignatius has a

42:44

Well, it's it's like You know people sometimes get upset with me when I point out that the book of the

42:52

New Testament That has the most Troubling textual history

43:03

Is the book of Revelation We have the fewest manuscripts of it Probably because it fought to have inclusion in the canon

43:13

But it it's really hard To deal with it textually and That's what it's one of the reasons why you know, it's not that much of a long book and yet when the

43:26

ECM of it came out What was that October of last year? It's four volumes.

43:32

I think it's like Four thousand pages or three thousand I forget what it's big because There's a lot of textual issues in the book of Revelation and people get upset with me about that.

43:44

Well, guess what? There's a lot of textual issues recension issues questions about History and things like that with Ignatius as well and one of the other things here.

43:54

And so I'm just hoping these guys Will take the time to listen to this realize. Oh, okay.

44:00

He's not he's not a mythicist He wasn't saying Ignatius doesn't exist He was saying that there's real issues with the recensions and the text and and questions about dating

44:12

You know, there's been you know, Lightfoot was just sort of The accepted standard for a long time, but they then so was the donation of Constantine Right.

44:22

So were the pseudo is a Dorian decretals and we all know today everybody agrees

44:29

They're frauds So it's it's good to be careful it's it's good to revisit what people thought was a consensus

44:39

And that's all I was trying to do in answering the question But then by misrepresenting me and I challenged him after the debate that came up to us

44:48

I really didn't appreciate the fact that in your closing statement and he apologized now I'm not sure what he's gonna say on the video tomorrow.

44:54

And like I said, I Might have a strong recommendation to them is don't do it.

45:01

You're You just just think about for a second, why aren't we talking about the substance of the debate?

45:12

This was a cross -examination question this isn't about Hebrews 10 or Hebrews 7 or or Malachi 1 or any other things that were discussed

45:23

This was a contextual comment that got interrupted and Terms were introduced to it by Hesh Meyer That he seemed to misunderstand and evidently other people have misunderstood as well and so it's just really weird

45:45

That you would focus upon a cross -exam question that the topics not even the topic of the debate

45:53

And it was how many seconds? you know Taylor Marshall grabbed hold of it and look

45:59

I'll be honest the whole reason for this is to try to do damage to me and It's dishonest.

46:05

It's it lacks integrity. It lacks scholarship and So I would just say to anybody thinking about doing that video

46:13

Hey, if you want to face plant and destroy your integrity, I can't stop you, but I'm trying to help you right now

46:20

Because any honest person who watches this video And then sees what's being said is gonna go.

46:28

What what are these people doing? Are they so desperate that they've got to dig anything out of the ground and throw any dirt they can find?

46:36

Because that's what it looks like to me There's no integrity in this at all So I really hope that these guys will rethink this but one of the things

46:46

I was gonna say is Roman Catholics generally look at church history through the lens of Roman Catholicism and Therefore looking at something like the existence of Ignatius They don't even think about I mean they just respond with this knee -jerk reaction that we're seeing

47:08

Evidently they don't take their assertions and their beliefs outside of Roman Catholicism, but I I do and so What if I were to quote?

47:22

From the epistle of Ephesians that incredibly beautiful section about For there is there is one physician of flesh and spirit

47:29

Generate and generate, you know true life and death son of Mary son of God that beautiful description of the of the

47:39

Really the hypostatic Union That is found in in that letter. What if I were to cite that against a real sharp

47:48

Muslim And they were to challenge That that actually can be traced to someone who lived in 107 to 108

47:57

How are you gonna back that up what what what evidence do you have Antioch was destroyed.

48:05

What what year was that like 115? By an earthquake and was rebuilt and pretty much anything from the first century got buried and All the archaeological digs at Antioch have not brought up any references to to Ignatius and So archaeologically you just don't have any contemporary stuff

48:31

The other references I mentioned earlier polycarp Eusebius Irenaeus There are questions

48:40

Concerning that though. That's very important. You did you dig into it? But the vast majority of the evidence for the existence of Ignatius is his actual

48:49

Epistles and so if you have questions about that, how are you gonna how are you gonna actually handle that?

48:56

when you're dealing with a Muslim when you're dealing with an atheist in 2010,

49:02

I debated Dr. Price at a CRI event and That was a fascinating debate and Bob Price Pushes Ignatius or the

49:19

Ignatian epistles back to about between 150 and 180 Now he doesn't do that because of the current discussions that were mentioned earlier

49:29

It's not due to recensions and stuff like that. He puts Paul at about 120 to 130.

49:35

So He's he's he is a Jesus mythicist, he doesn't believe

49:41

Jesus existed and so All this material has to be made quite quite late.

49:48

So again, this is stuff I've been dealing with for a very very long time and I did and I just go

49:55

I'm looking at the people who are Getting all huffy -puffy Um, they're not

50:01

Dealing with a Bob Price or something like that. They're not taking this They're not doing this with Muslims and and all that kind of stuff

50:10

And so maybe they've never thought through You can't just assume things

50:16

You have to be able to provide evidence of things and if there are serious problems with the

50:23

Literary remains and that is the primary source we have to be able to Identify when where he lived what he did

50:34

Etc, etc Then you sort of need to you need to be honest about it and you need to say

50:41

Here's here's what the issues are. That's that's incumbent upon Christian apologists to to do that and so that's what

50:50

I was trying to do and It was a very very minor part of the cross -examination.

50:56

It has been blown completely Out of proportion and the only reason

51:01

I can see is to try to do damage to me because I can guarantee you one thing We can put this video up We can try to promote it we can try to make sure it's got all the proper tags to be searched five ten years from now

51:18

I'll have somebody online in a Q &A something Say to me.

51:26

Oh, yeah, but you don't think Ignatius existed because people want to believe what they want to believe and whether it's

51:35

True, whether it's honest whether it actually represents what I've said in a career of writing and teaching

51:45

Doesn't matter lies have very long lives and I'm already seeing these lies being perpetuated and you'll see them over and over again now on the good side that gives us an opportunity to talk about this kind of stuff and to Introduce this kind of information to people and go.

52:07

Hey, you know, these are the things that have been assumed But Honestly, and this is another thing it's important to say

52:18

I Want Ignatius to be 107 to 108

52:23

I want the genuine epistles to be the genuine epistles because I love them I've memorized portions of them.

52:30

I've taught them. I've read them in Greek They're they're great stuff They're not what

52:36

Roman Catholics think they are. I can read Ignatius and go. Oh, yeah. See they're the there's the you know already

52:44

Monarchical Episcopate over in the east, but you've still got the plurality but It's wonderful I want

52:51

Ignatius to be 107 108 for the martyrdom and I want these to be genuine but here's the problem what

53:00

I want is irrelevant and I have to be very careful

53:06

That if I want it to be that way That I don't do with the data

53:13

Something to make it that way because I want it to be that way And I don't think a lot of these folks have really thought that through I really do want that I Can see some ways of defending the old consensus

53:36

But there are questions that weren't being addressed by the old consensus and so maybe

53:43

What will happen is some very? Sharp young minds will tackle things like this and What we'll end up with is a firmer testimony to Ignatius's words, that would be great.

53:58

I'd like to see that happen. I really would That may happen after I'm gone. I don't know but in the meantime,

54:06

I've got to be honest in the meantime That text still doesn't say what

54:11

Roman Catholics say it says, okay So The the piling on going on on on the web is just destructive of the integrity

54:27

Honesty of the people that are doing it. It's just it's absurd and We've now demonstrated that and now we will really really demonstrate that By walking through the text.

54:37

I wish I could put this up for you, but I can't it's it's not possible to do for me right now

54:47

We will we will get to it Well, we'll do it next week we do that now so Trolleans the love of the

55:03

Trolleans chapter 9 section 9. It's not really chapter

55:10

Uh Begins Let me let me see. Where did he did he to be?

55:18

There Mercy sir. No, and I just want to make sure this is where I want to start.

55:26

Yeah, you know, I I think I Actually posted trolleans 9 recently because it's so beautiful, but we'll get to it.

55:35

I don't want to get in the way here Um So he addresses the bishop oblivious and He's writing to the

55:48

Church of Smyrna and he is Exhorting them to stay in in fellowship with the bishop and You might go well, it's different to what you believe no, obviously

56:02

Pastor elder bishop or the same office in the New Testament Joe said otherwise But it's very easy to prove from them when

56:09

Paul uses the same term interchangeably. It's there you go and so Then he starts getting into what are some of the concerns of the false teachers.

56:21

Why should you hold so closely to the bishop? because he's overseeing your soul because there are people who are out there and they're trying to Get people to convert to other ways of Viewing things and so He talks about being in chains in section 5 and Then he says in 6 in section 6.

56:46

I urge you therefore yet not I with the love of Jesus Christ Partake only of Christian food and keep away from every strange plant, which is heresy these people while pretending to be trustworthy, so these are people that are

57:00

Trying to be in the church. I'm reminded the pseudo Delphi in Galatians Mix Jesus Christ with themselves like those who administer a deadly drug with honeyed wine

57:11

Which the unsuspecting victim accepts not fear and so with fatal pleasure drinks down death therefore be on your guard against such people and You will be provided that you are not popped up with pride and that you cling

57:23

Inseparably to Jesus Christ and to the bishop and to the commandments of the Apostles The one who is within the sanctuary is clean

57:30

But the one who is outside the sanctuary is not clean distinguished between the two groups That is whoever does anything without the bishop and council of presbyters and deacons does not have a clean conscience

57:40

Not that I know of any such thing among you rather I am guarding you in advance because you are very dear to me and I foresee the snares of the devil you therefore must arm

57:48

Yourselves with gentleness and regain your strength in faith, which is the flesh of the Lord and in love which is the blood of Jesus Christ I just mentioned that in passing

57:58

Faith and love are not physical things, but he identifies them as the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ So He says be deaf therefore

58:13

That's it that's a really great Book, and I always read you trolleys nine.

58:19

We're supposed to be looking at Smyrnians. I'm sorry. It's a great book though Be deaf therefore whenever anyone speaks to you apart from Jesus Christ who was the family of David Who was the son of Mary who was?

58:31

Really was born who both ate and drank catch that because this is gonna be relevant when we look at the Smyrnians just saying

58:37

Who really was persecuted under Pontius Pilate? Who really was crucified and died while those in heaven on earth and under the earth looked on who moreover really was raised from the dead?

58:47

When his father raised him up in the same way his father will likewise also raise up in Christ Jesus Us who believe in him apart from him.

58:53

We have no true life That was the section. I wanted to post and comment on I don't remember if I got around to it or not

58:59

But that this is why I want this to be True I want this to be valid Because Man, that's beautiful beautiful stuff.

59:13

It really really is All right, but I apologize. I I don't know

59:18

I had had it queued up and so I just started reading where I had it queued up and somehow it had scrolled and So you got an introduction to trillions another good reason to read it okay, so we go finally to the

59:33

Smyrnians and Here you have something fascinating He says

59:39

I glorified Jesus Christ the God Who made you so wise for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith having been nailed as it were to the cross

59:49

Lord Jesus Christ in both body and spirit and firmly established in love by the blood of Christ And by the way,

59:55

I have used that if I just just realized this in 2008 I used this exact quote

01:00:05

In a debate with a Muslim who is denying the crucifixion And I was demonstrating here in the earliest

01:00:11

Christian documents outside of the New Testament You have the blood of Christ and it's right there and firmly established and loved by the blood of Christ totally convinced with regard to our

01:00:21

Lord that he is truly of the family of David With respect to human descent now, that's what we're starting to talk about He is a human

01:00:31

He's of the family of David son of God with respect to the divine will and power truly born of a virgin

01:00:38

Baptized by John in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled by him sound familiar here

01:00:44

Colossians 1st John the What our hands have handled and touched the

01:00:50

Word of Life Against the Docetist now, let me define that term

01:00:57

What we're gonna read here now that we're in Smyrnians. What we're gonna read here is an anti docetic polemic

01:01:04

The term docetist comes in the Greek term dachine Dachine means it seems and So the docetist were people who taught that Jesus only seemed to have a physical body

01:01:17

He did not have a physical body because in Gnosticism anything that is physical is evil It's fallen.

01:01:23

And so they made Jesus one of the eons and If you want to go back During what was that March April of 2020?

01:01:33

When I was responding to Ken Wilson, I spent hours on the dividing line going through the different kinds of Gnosticism what gave rise to Manichaeism and stuff like that and And We went through the the dualism that was part of Gnosticism It's not exhaustively definitional

01:01:53

Gnosticism a lot of people make an error there. But anyway you can go back and you find that to be the case and so When you hear what he's a truly born of a virgin baptized by John or the all righteous might be full

01:02:06

They have truly nailed in the flesh For us under Pontius Pilate and Herod the

01:02:13

Tetrarch from his true we derive our existence that is from his divinely blessed suffering in order that he might raise a banner for the ages through his

01:02:20

Resurrection for his saints and faithful people whether among Jews or among Gentiles in the one body of his church for he suffered all these things for our sakes in order that we might be saved and he truly suffered just as he was truly rate as He truly raised himself not as certain

01:02:39

Unbelievers say Unbelievers say That he suffered in appearance only in appearance only

01:02:52

Now I have the Greek Provided by Lightfoot there are other critical texts available

01:03:01

The apostoi unbelievers certain apostoi are saying

01:03:06

Ta Dakine out on It seemed

01:03:13

It seemed that he suffered That's the very term That's docetism.

01:03:20

He's talking about facets of there. There it is. That's fine. It's right there in the text It is they who exist in appearance only notice.

01:03:29

He's mocking them. It is it is they who are Dakine? I Addressing docetism, what would be

01:03:39

I Can't imagine what it would be but some of the guys Already coming after me wouldn't be able to look this up and read

01:03:47

Dakine if it hit him on the nose But they're very sure about what my intentions were

01:03:54

Anyway, indeed their fate will be determined by what they think they will become disembodied and demonic for I know and believe

01:04:00

That he was in the flesh even after the resurrection He mentioned a current well -known

01:04:09

Christian scholar who Thinks Jesus is gonna be reincarnated before he comes back But anyway,

01:04:15

I don't think Ignatius would have liked that and when he came to Peter and those with him He said to them take hold of me handle me and see that I am

01:04:23

NOT a disembodied demon and Immediately they touched him and believed being closely united with his flesh and blood ding ding ding ding ding ding

01:04:32

Do you see that they touched him and believed Being closely united with his flesh and blood

01:04:41

Where's the flesh and blood again? follow along For this reason they to despise death indeed

01:04:48

They proved to be greater than death and after his resurrection He ate and drank with them like one who is composed of flesh.

01:04:54

Although spiritually he was united with the Father so the resurrection body no corruptions also

01:05:00

Now I am advising you of these things dear friends knowing that you're of the same mind But I am guarding you in advanced against wild beasts in human form

01:05:09

People whom you must not only not welcome but if possible not even meet keep those

01:05:14

Gnostics out of the church keep those docetics out of the church and That's what first John says.

01:05:20

That's what Colossians says. Nevertheless do pray for them that somehow they might repent Difficult though it may be

01:05:26

But Jesus Christ our true life has power over this for if these things are done by our

01:05:31

Lord and in appearance only Smyrnians 4 to Igar taught

01:05:37

Dakhine Tauta if these things only were in appearance seemed docetism

01:05:45

For if these things were done by our Lord in appearance only then I am in chains in appearance only.

01:05:51

I love the He's he would have done all right on Twitter Why moreover have

01:05:58

I surrendered myself to death to fire to sword to beasts But in any case near the sword means near to God with the beast means with God Only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ that I may suffer together with him

01:06:10

I endure everything because he himself who is the perfect human being empowers me Certain people ignorantly deny him or rather have been denied by him

01:06:20

For they are advocates of death rather than of the truth Neither the prophecies nor the law of Moses have persuaded them nor thus far the gospel nor our own individual suffering

01:06:32

For they think the same thing about us For what good does it do me if someone praises me but blasphemes my

01:06:39

Lord by not confessing that he was clothed in flesh what? What is it? For what good does it do me if someone praises me but blasphemes my

01:06:50

Lord by not doing what? Confessing that he was clothed in flesh

01:06:57

Anyone who does not acknowledge this thereby denies him completely and is clothed in a corpse

01:07:06

Given that they are unbelievers It did not seem worthwhile

01:07:11

To me to record their names indeed far be it from me even to remember them Until such time as they change their mind regarding the passion, which is our resurrection

01:07:20

Let no one be misled even the heavenly beings and the glory of angels and the rulers both visible and invisible are subject to judgment if They do not believe in the blood of Christ He's already mentioned flesh and blood that the

01:07:35

Apostles Touched him flesh and blood. He's talked about the body Now he's talking about if they do not believe in the blood of Christ Let the one who can accept this accept it

01:07:44

Do not let a high position make anyone proud for faith and love or everything. Nothing is preferable to them now know well

01:07:53

Those who hold heretical opinions about the grace of Jesus Christ that came to us Note how contrary they are the mind of God They have no concern for love none for the widow none for the orphan none for the oppressed none for the prisoner or the one

01:08:07

Released none for the hungry thirsty, by the way that was very much true of the

01:08:13

Gnostics that concerned about fleshly things The poor of the widow stuff like that.

01:08:20

That wasn't a regular aspect of Gnostic thought Then we have we're now at the quote

01:08:28

They abstain from Eucharist and prayer Because they refuse to acknowledge that the

01:08:34

Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ Who suffered for our sins and which the father by his goodness raised up There it is

01:08:45

Transistentiation there it is Therefore those who deny the good gift of God perish in their contentiousness

01:08:52

It would be more their advantage to love in order that they might also rise up now

01:08:58

What was the context from the start of the letter? Antidocetism So, why do they they're they're they're unbelievers they're put out these aren't you know, you know

01:09:13

I was wondering do Roman Catholics think that there were Protestants back then? Because they're applying it to us

01:09:23

But these weren't Protestants these were people who did not believe Jesus had a body of flesh and blood and So if Jesus didn't have a body of flesh and blood he only seemed to then why would you partake of The bread and the wine?

01:09:40

Because there's no flesh and blood There was never any flesh and blood so They abstain from Eucharist and prayer because They refuse to acknowledge

01:09:56

That the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. Why would they why would they do that? Not because they're

01:10:01

Protestants not because they're thinking it's a memorial But because they don't believe

01:10:06

Jesus had a physical body. That's the whole point It's been said how many times in the preceding verses if you read the preceding verses

01:10:17

I wonder how many Roman Catholics who quote this particular section, you know, take it out of jargons

01:10:22

They found it a website whatever they ever read Smyrnians They abstain from the

01:10:29

Eucharist and prayer because they refuse to acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ Which suffered for our sins in which the father by his goodness raised up That's the whole point resurrection physical body.

01:10:41

Jesus hasn't physical body after resurrection The apostles touched him. It's all an

01:10:47

Antisemitic polemic to try to read into some other controversy like the nature of the

01:10:53

Eucharist Transubstantiation whatever else it is is to absolutely Destroy the context of Smyrnians.

01:11:00

It is to abuse What you have in this epistle no matter when it was written no matter when it was written

01:11:07

It certainly was written in in the second century. So no matter what you do with the dating

01:11:13

However, you can end up coming down on that This text doesn't teach What Roman Catholics use it to teach?

01:11:21

Okay, just just read Smyrnians for yourself and you'll find that out So if that had been what we were debating or something then we would have walked through the text and I would have put up, you know, maybe done a

01:11:38

This would have been helpful to have a screen and presentation. I would have put the Greek up there there's

01:11:43

Tata kind and and here's the here's the context and here's what's being said and here's the language and But that's not what we were doing

01:11:52

It was a cross -examination question where I tried to provide some scholarly background that's all it was and Every one of you jumping up and down and taking a little clip and ignoring the rest of the debate and not looking at this

01:12:06

I'm not looking what I did 17 years ago where I dealt with the same stuff and talked about the same thing. I I Just wonder where your integrity is.

01:12:15

I really do. I It seems so petty Why are you doing this?

01:12:23

I don't know. I don't know So there's there's the text there's

01:12:30

There's what it was actually saying that's what I was trying to summarize and If I hadn't been interrupted there this probably wouldn't have even happened

01:12:41

But Joe did that a lot Lot more than I did for him. I gave him much more leash in the cross -examination

01:12:51

Much let him go on much longer than he he let me do a few But there are a bunch of times

01:12:57

I'd get two three, four, five six words out and boom You know, he's he's on to the the next point. He wants to try to make so You know

01:13:06

I was going to Before all this started happening

01:13:11

I was thinking yeah, you know, maybe down the line It would be worthwhile to like play his closing statements and point out the various problems here that he was making in that These are you know, these are erroneous assertions and stuff.

01:13:23

I didn't expect to have to do this. I Really was really surprised that because this seems this just strikes me as Desperation and and I don't know.

01:13:36

I don't I don't get what the origin source of it is. But there you go so, um, there's a whole lot more that can be said

01:13:43

I Imagine while I was driving today I Covered some other aspects of this

01:13:51

But I'm the only one heard it. Nobody else did and well, the the national security agent that listens to my phone probably got to hear about that stuff, but nobody else, um

01:14:04

But there is one other thing that I wanted to address in this and it's it's not about the Ignatius stuff

01:14:11

Like I said, we get home. Hopefully we can have an even further Discussion about all that that stuff for because look

01:14:18

I realized there are a lot of geeks in our audience that like to do Not only church history stuff

01:14:23

But here you get to do textual criticism and church history and theology all at the same time And that just makes some people just whoo, really happy so we'll try to get but there was one other thing during the

01:14:35

Saturday debate and I'm not trying to ignore the Friday debate maybe

01:14:40

We can get around to sort of a discussion of that I do want to say wait, I do want to say

01:14:52

Just uber kudos to 12 five church Now this sounds self -serving but there's it's so much like apology it's it's like just like being home

01:15:04

Energetic worship and Nathan Is is just a great guy and Jeremiah You know,

01:15:15

I at one point during one that yeah on the Friday night debate, you know, you know, I Put my hand on his shoulder and I said here's here's the next generation of apologetics and you know,

01:15:27

I pray God keeps him strong and and Grounded in the church, you know, he's teaching the youth and stuff like that need to keep doing that.

01:15:36

That's Apologists who are not churchmen will End up someplace a they shouldn't be

01:15:47

But, you know Jeremiah put these things together I had contacted him back in January and I'm like I Didn't really put anything together for 2025.

01:15:56

I didn't know what's gonna happen in the election What could you guys put something together and he puts two debates together

01:16:04

I mean the guy is really good at doing that better than I am He must have dirt on people to get them to do things

01:16:09

I'm not sure But they put it together so fast their youth did a whole weekend you thing based on the debates that was really super cool and So, you know my my highest recommendations and commendations to Jeremiah During The Friday night debate my heart went out of rhythm.

01:16:35

It's first time it's ever happened a debate It's out of rhythm right now has been there in the whole book and So, especially at the end it went into an even worse rhythm and I wasn't feeling real hot and So there are a couple times.

01:16:53

I just motioned to Jeremiah you you go ahead and take this this question or the 30 -second response or whatever else might be and Nobody even knew it was happening.

01:17:04

He just he just picked it up and ran with it and that's My highest commendations

01:17:13

The It tells me when I look at Jeff Durbin when

01:17:18

I look at Jeremiah when I look at Eli Ayala When I look at these these young guys

01:17:25

Lords hey if If I get hit by a truck tomorrow and I never make it home the church is gonna go on The ministry of apologetics is gonna go on I I know that each one of them has said publicly

01:17:45

That what we have done for 42 years has been very important in bringing them to do this

01:17:51

And so that's the way it should be There's there's no reason for me to To look at a

01:17:57

Wes Huff and go. Oh, man, he got to be on Rogan. I wouldn't do all on Rogan I really wouldn't but I encouraged

01:18:04

Wes Huff to so that's how it's supposed to work and These young guys should be living their lives in such a way as to realize once they get to my age and their body starts

01:18:14

Falling apart and their heart starts doing weird funky stuff Have they been an encouragement to others that's

01:18:23

That's that's Finishing well things like that. That's really important. So I did want to say that I did want to commend them

01:18:30

Thank them so much for having me out and taking care of me That was that was really really cool

01:18:38

There was one other thing and this was actually part of the debate

01:18:45

At one point Yeah, it was during my first cross -ex

01:18:53

Somehow Something came up and I don't think

01:18:59

I cited it. I think he cited a 2nd Peter chapter 3 speaking about Paul 2nd

01:19:08

Peter 3 16 as In all his letters speaking in them of these things in which there in which are some things hard to understand which the untaught and unstable distort as they do also the rest of scriptures to their own destruction and I just made the basic observation

01:19:30

Well, it's the untaught and unstable Who distort the scriptures? So if you're taught and stable, then you can understand

01:19:39

Paul and you you're not under any You're not going to distort the scriptures

01:19:46

Because you're untaught and unstable you're taught and stable and he's like, oh, that's ridiculous. Oh, that's a logical error.

01:19:52

And I Honestly, I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute and Consider the patience of our

01:20:00

Lord of salvation Just as also our beloved brother Paul According to the wisdom given him.

01:20:07

So Peter is saying Paul's letters are wisdom given by God to Paul Paul has written to them and in all his letters he speaks in these things

01:20:21

So he's speaking godly wisdom speaking of all these things and then Peter says in which are some things hard not everything but there are some things that are hard to understand and I could think of a few texts that would pop into my head as possibilities for that but who?

01:20:42

distorts those things as they do the rest of the scriptures to their own destruction a

01:20:50

Specific group of people who are untaught and unstable Now if you're going to introduce the categories of being taught

01:21:01

And and what is what is the term what is the term taught? Well a disciple is taught so Ahmoth Thais means untaught

01:21:15

But Ahmoth Ates is a disciple. He's taught And a person who is unstable.

01:21:22

Well, Paul's always calling us to stability and steadfastness So I was stunned

01:21:30

That he's sitting there going. No, it doesn't it doesn't follow that if you are taught and stable that you will be able to properly handle

01:21:38

Paul's words of the rest of the scriptures and I'm Like and I I was sitting there and I was going

01:21:45

Okay, I've never heard anyone go here before no one's ever disputed. It seems so obvious and logical But do

01:21:52

I want to spend my entire cross X time going back into the context and proving this and The answer was no, and so I dropped it

01:22:04

But go back and listen to it yourself. I just can't even begin to understand

01:22:11

How in the world he ended up going there and and what in the world he's trying to say Unless in the background is the idea.

01:22:17

No you need you need the church and I would go Well, but he's addressing the church and are you know?

01:22:25

look Tucho Fernandez is untaught and unstable and He is in these he is in charge of the theology of the

01:22:32

Roman Catholic Church right now And he is untaught and unstable. There's no question about it. Just read some of the books.

01:22:38

He's written But Anyway, there you go. So I wanted to I want to touch on that and make sure that was covered

01:22:46

So I'm sure when I get done with this, I'm gonna go back and go. Oh, man I forgot to mention that and that would have been helpful and if I do maybe

01:22:55

I can make you know an audio note or something while I'm driving and When we get a chance to do some of the discussion of this

01:23:04

Lord willing next week Bring that back up then but my last word

01:23:11

I'm really surprised. I've gone this this long But it does prove that you can push through Even your regular heart rhythms to do what you need to do if you really want to do it and I did to Mr.

01:23:27

Bertuzzi and To Joe and to anyone else who wants to join them

01:23:39

Listen to what I just said here Deal with what I've actually said Don't build strongmen

01:23:48

If all you're trying to do is try to do damage to me try to to try to misrepresent me

01:23:56

I can't stop you but you see people who have integrity are

01:24:02

Gonna listen to this. I could check out the sources and there you go. Oh, yeah. Well, that is important Yeah, Ignatius is different than the

01:24:11

Ignatian Corpus is different than pretty much anybody else's and there are questions about the dating

01:24:19

So, yeah, that was that's a Maybe you shouldn't have mentioned that in that debate. Okay, maybe not.

01:24:25

It's not like I was changing the topic I was just providing and what I think is an important contextual background to any examination of Utilization of Ignatius and then do what

01:24:37

I just did Walk through the text and and Explain why taught a kind Appears multiple times in this epistle if it's not an anti the static plumbing

01:24:52

Now my prediction will be yes, and the way to defeat docet ism is with a theology that actually and this is admitted by I think the vast majority of Roman Catholic scholars on sacrament ology developed long after Ignatius The best way to fight the docetics is with a

01:25:14

Theology that didn't exist yet Okay, that's where you want to go. All right but my my strong suggestion would be just Y 'all jumped on something that has no substance to just stop

01:25:33

Go find something more useful to do But if y 'all do you're like I said, you're just pretty much proving my point for me

01:25:41

So we will we will see about that All right. So, um You know what?

01:25:51

I think the 60 mile an hour winds have stopped. I Hope the tonneau cover is still on my truck

01:25:57

Literally, the wind was so bad that I walked out to my truck one time and my tonneau cover had been thrown up onto the cab

01:26:05

That's I mean Wow And I'm sure it's just covered in dust. It's tomorrow's gonna be very interesting

01:26:13

But I should go out there and check it out one way or the other But at least I'm not gonna get blown away.

01:26:18

It looks like Because you could I couldn't even see the hotel that's across the way there when we started the program, there's just Red brown dirt all over the place.

01:26:31

So things are calming down a little bit. That's that's good anyways, thank you very much for Putting up with my lengthy conversation here.

01:26:41

I hope it will be useful to you and I hope it will For those who are wise they will go.

01:26:50

Yeah, we shouldn't have gone there. Let's go someplace else But if you if you all just want to double down What can

01:26:59

I say? We've said what needs to be said. So thanks for watching the program today We will see you next time on the devouring.