G3 Interviews with Kofi and Fred Butler

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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All right, so this is gonna be the last of the interviews that we had done at the

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G3 conference, and we got a great one for you. First, we're gonna start off with a good friend,

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Kofi. We're gonna talk about discipleship. This is very valuable, very helpful for many people who are gonna be listening, because this is gonna be telling us as Christians what is our mission.

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After that, we have Fred Butler on from Grace to You. We are gonna get into discussing some of the beginnings.

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50 years ago, John MacArthur started preaching at Grace Community Church, and we're gonna talk about that and how the ministry has grown and some things about the ministry.

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It'll be an insightful episode for you to be able to enjoy.

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Please go and share this with others. So let us start after this.

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Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications.

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This is the ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

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All righty, right, all right, all right. So this is, first up, we have Kofi, and this is a great brother from the

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UK. Got to know him, very thoughtful individual, someone who really, you're gonna see that he is a deep thinker.

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And before we get to that interview, I just wanna give a quick shout out to the many who are listening and following us.

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We could not be here if it wasn't for you. You really are the reason that we do these podcasts to try to help and teach and disciple through this medium.

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Yeah, the reviews don't actually help your ratings at all in iTunes, as far as we know.

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And we appreciate that. And so those are some things you could do. Later on, I'll read some reviews and things like that.

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But let's start off with the interview with Kofi. Okay, so here we are with G3 with a friend.

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A personal friend that I've known for a number of years, actually. And if you hear his voice, we may need translation.

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Just going forward so you understand, we're not sure what language they speak over there in England.

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Not sure, but if you need translation, we could do it. But Kofi, I'm not even gonna try your last name.

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So you're gonna have to do that one. So Kofi, introduce your, give your last full name.

03:25

Sure, no problem. So, yep, I am Kofi, and here's my surname. It's Edu -bo -hen.

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Yes, it is, it sounds nothing like how it's spelled. So don't feel bad if you can't pronounce it.

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I couldn't pronounce it at all, I was about 15 myself. So you're in good company. So, yeah, you and I have gone way back, although you're from England, from the

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UK, where they speak... Oh, you mean the beautiful language called English that we gave to our

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American friends and they broke it? Yeah, that language. Yeah, I used to bust on Paul Taylor.

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We were at a conference, we were busting on each other, as we do. And I kept asking everyone if they need translation.

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Every time he'd speak, we'll get to the Q &A. And I asked, you know, in the

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East Coast, we say water. In the Midwest, they call it water. So, I basically was like, hey

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Michael, can we get some water? And he goes, what? So, real quick,

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Paul goes, let me translate. He would like some wa -ter. And everybody was cracking up.

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He ended up saying that his son was traveling somewhere and was asked what language they speak over there in the

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UK. And he just looked and goes, English. It's where you got it from.

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So, you came over to the States to get married. Yep. So, you got stuck here.

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Well, I don't like to refer to it as being stuck. Providentially moved here, let's put it that way. Providentially moved here.

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So, you're out, you're interning at a church. Yep. What's the church? So, I am a ministry intern at Bear Creek Church in Medford, Oregon.

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So, those of you who know the state of Oregon, we are at the bottom of the state, about 30 miles from the borders of California.

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So, we're an independent reformed church in town, about 350 of us. And I've been there as an intern about a year and a half.

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All right, now you've been blogging for a long time. That's, I think, how

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I came in touch with you initially. And I think the first time we met was Shepherd's Conference.

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That's correct, yep. I think, yes, the first time we met in person. Yeah. But, so one of the things that you and I have been talking about is doing some future blogging with us.

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Yep. So, we're looking forward to hopefully seeing that come soon. How you been enjoying

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G3? Well, G3's been a great conference. This is my fourth year here. And, you know,

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I came for the first time in 2016. I'd heard of the conference, I'd watched it online previously.

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And then met Pastor Josh Bice in London, that's its own very fun story. And so we came out, myself and a guy from my church in London at the time, and we just absolutely loved it.

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Just, it was great preaching, great fellowship, just being able to meet with so many different folks and connect with a number of ministries who had come out.

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Not quite as many as are here now, it's amazing how many are here now. But that was the beginning of,

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I think, a great relationship where I was like, okay, I think we're gonna come back to this. And so we've just kept coming back and kept coming back and I think what sets this conference out from so many is the reality that we all know why we're here.

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This is a theology conference. We are not here to just, you know, buy time and hear some sort of pep rally speeches, if you will.

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Yeah, I've learned what pep rallies are, by the way, since I've been here. That's an interesting concept. But no, we're here to dig deep into God's word, to sing rich music that reminds us of the gospel, that reminds us of the central truths of our faith, enjoy fellowship, connect with ministries, get resources, and in a lot of ways, the

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Shepherds Conference will always be my favorite conference, but this is easily a close second for me now, easily.

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Yeah, I think I would agree with that myself. Speaking of the

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UK, I actually, before we, we may have met before we knew who each other were, when

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I was actually out at your church. Yeah. And you reminded me of that. When I was over at the, did an outreach over at the

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Olympics. Yep, 2012, yeah. Yeah, so I guess we went and visited your church.

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I remember. We didn't know each other at that point, but. So, with the preacher and, you know, you already said it's a theology conference.

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The preachers that we have here are some of the best of the best. Yep, absolutely. It's, I think the fellowship you end up having here is great.

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I think that's one of the things, I think that when people think about conferences, there's some who come just for the preaching.

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There's some who avoid it, because they say, well, I can get this online. Yep. And you can, you can watch it online, but I think the thing that people miss the most, or miss out on the most, is the fellowship that you get when you're here.

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Absolutely, absolutely. So, you've come here, you've been here four times. You know, describe the fellowship, what it is when you get to an event like this, just the camaraderie you can't get from watching streaming.

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Absolutely. I guess the best way I can explain it is to explain my experience when I came for the first time, back in 2016, and what it is now.

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So, 2016, I came to the conference. In fact, we stayed with Dr. Josh Bias, who is the visionary behind the conference, if you will.

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And so, we stayed with him. And so, we were here super early and left super late, which meant we were getting to meet people all the time.

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And he's introducing us to members of his church who were serving us. And let me take a moment and just shout out the amazing volunteer team here at G3.

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They look after you from the minute you walk in to the minute you leave, every single day. They're a great team.

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It's a reflection, not just on the conference, but on the fact that the local church out of which it comes has been well taught, and they have a great foundation as to why they should be serving.

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And so, shout out to them. So, we got here in 2016, and immediately, we're meeting people, and they're just, literally just folding you in.

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It's like, you've become a member of the family. Now, let's take care of you. And so, that began to help.

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And so, you're walking around various stalls and what have you, and you're meeting people, and you're making connections.

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And then, a funny thing happened the next year we came. These people remembered who we were.

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And so, now - I experienced that myself, yeah. And so, now, there's a connection.

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It's like, hey, how's things been? You know, it's been a year since we last saw each other.

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So, for example, when I came in 2016, I had just gone into a relationship.

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When I came in 2017, they should be going for you. And so, people ask me, how's things with you? Like, you met someone?

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Yeah. I didn't really tell people I'd met someone when I first came. So, the next year, people were like, yeah, I've actually met someone.

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Oh, really? Tell me about her. Well, I come back in 2018, and we've gotten married since then.

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So, now, I'm going around the same people, and they're telling me, no, they're asking, so,

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Kofi, how's your wife? Like, you've been married. You know, it's like, now, our relationship is deepening.

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And so, and that's true for the vendors. That's true for the folks that you meet here. And a lot of those connections also get fostered outside of the conference.

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So, you know, we're following each other on social media, and we're keeping in contact pretty much all year long.

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And then, G3 now becomes like a family reunion. It's like, okay, we've been talking online for ages, and now, hey, I get to see you again.

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So, that's what kind of happens as you keep, and that's something you can't get from watching a live stream. That's true, that's true.

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You can't get that from just, I mean, the ministry's great. I mean, you're still gonna be blessed by it, even if you listen to it in your own home.

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But the added component of being together, like you said, camaraderie, you just can't beat that. Let's talk about a subject that is very dear to both of our hearts.

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I think it's the thing that we both, really, the focus of both our ministries, discipleship.

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Absolutely. So, you have a heart for discipleship. Talk about discipleship, and why it's so important for the

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Christian church. Wow. How long do we have? Okay, in two minutes.

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Okay, two, there we go, there we go. Hey, I preach, I start talking, and off I go. I think discipleship's important, because that's how we pass on this, the language that Paul uses is a sacred deposit.

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We pass on this sacred deposit to the next generation through discipleship. It's as we are faithfully, as it were, heralding the gospel, as we're faithfully teaching the next generation, as we're faithfully passing it on, that's how this sacred deposit moves on to the next generation.

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I think, I've often said that the term discipleship is very nebulous at times, when you speak to people.

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I prefer to kind of substitute it with the term disciple -making, because that's much more definite. That it's the process by which we are seeking to make disciples, learners, students, and it's not the kind of making students where it's just academic, and we just want to fill their heads with that.

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Information is good, that's important. We need that foundation, but it's information for the purpose of godliness, information for the purpose of transformation, and so that's why

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I'm passionate about it, because I've been a beneficiary of it. I was 17 years old when

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I became really good friends with a, actually, I was 16, yeah, I was 16, when

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I became friends with a retired pastor, and for three years, up until I went off to college, he discipled me.

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I sat in his home, he would cook his meals, and we would study the Bible, we'd read books together, we'd pray together.

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I'd bounce off ideas, I was kind of getting my theology straight, and I had 1 ,001 questions, and he was very patient, and it's time -consuming, it's resource -consuming, but it's the idea of transfer, and that's what

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I kind of saw in my own life, and then he's like, okay, there's only so much I can do, you need to be part of a good

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Bible -teaching church, so I joined one, and there was more discipleship that took place, and more ministry opportunities that took place, and now, the stuff that I was learning,

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I was able to now pass on to other people, and that is so vital, because not only does it confirm them in their faith, it confirms you in your faith as well.

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Yeah, I mean, one of the things I think that I notice is what we end up seeing is true discipleship, biblical discipleship, is going to mature you as much as the person you're discipling.

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Absolutely. Because it is, as Christ said, teach them all things that I have taught you, it's reproducing yourself in another person, but when you start doing that, you start realizing how much you need to grow, and all of a sudden, it's, okay,

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I need to mature more, so I've always said that everybody has to have two relationships, two discipling relationships, one of someone that's further along than them in some area where they're being discipled, and one where they're discipling someone who needs help in an area where they're stronger.

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It's like my posse say back in London, two questions, who are you discipling, and who's discipling you?

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Yeah, no, that's it, I mean, because that's, the reality is, is some people think, well, for me to disciple someone,

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I have to be more spiritual. No, you don't, because you just have to be better in one area that they are.

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Now, every Christian can disciple, every Christian, because there's someone who doesn't know

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Christ, that's where you start, and when they get saved, guess what, they're gonna ask you lots of questions.

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You just start answering them. That's what the discipleship is, you know, that's how it begins, but I find a lot of people who start maturing in their relationship with Christ, and they stop looking for, they think like, okay,

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I've arrived, I no longer need to have someone disciple me, and I don't think at any point in ministry that's good, even if you're

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John MacArthur, you need someone discipling you, keeping you, you know, training you in different areas, you know?

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No, absolutely, there's a sense in which, you know, as believers, we don't want to be stagnant pools, we want to be running streams, and if no one's pouring into you, if nobody is seeking to disciple you, if nobody's seeking to invest in you, you're becoming a stagnant pool, because it's like,

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I'm receiving, but I'm not giving any of this out, I am not passing any of this on,

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I'm not transferring any of this, and so there's a sense in which I agree, even the most spiritually mature of us still need to have and maintain those relationships where we are being poured into, where,

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I'll say this about some of the discipleship relationships I've had in my life, some of them have been profoundly painful at times, not because they wronged me in some way, or, it's just, as they're pointing out areas of weakness in my life, it hurts, like,

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I think it's Dr. Lawson who says, you know, iron sharpens iron, wood doesn't sharpen iron. You know, it's gonna hurt sometimes, like, sparks will happen when you put two pieces of iron together, but, again, it's, you look, you kind of go through that, and you realize, actually, no,

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I needed that, that gave me perspective, it gave me an ability to see where I was weak, and that's invaluable, that is so, so invaluable.

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Well, that is the maturing, sanctifying process that God established,

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I mean, we can think of Titus 2 .2, right, where Paul says to Titus, you know, or, sorry, 2

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Timothy 2 .2, I should say, where Paul says to Timothy, I've trained you, you train faithful men so they could train others.

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Absolutely. And that's the thing, it wasn't supposed, so, where, like, the Catholic Church will say there was this, you know, progression from the disciples down, right, there was, but not the way they see it, you know, it was not this apostolic succession of the apostles, it was an apostolic succession of the teaching and discipling.

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Absolutely. And this is the thing I think a lot of people miss, is they think, well, I just go to church.

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Do you think that Christians should attend church, just attending church, or do you believe that every

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Christian should be discipline -making? Well, here's the thing, if, and I've heard people make that distinction, well,

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I didn't do something, I just attend church, like, I'm just here, I need to be poured into, that misses the point entirely,

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Ephesians 4, why does God give to the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers? Well, it says that he gives them for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry.

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And I've used the analogy often, good pastor -teachers are supposed to be like coaches. They, they aren't just playing, they aren't the ones who play the game and we're watching.

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No, they're training us so that we can go out and play the game. They're training us so that in the, you know, sphere that God puts us, we are able to pour into other people, and that's gonna look different from person to person, for some, it may be the mother who's with her kids, fathers and sons.

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It may be, okay, I've got two or three ladies in my life that I have an influence with, and I'm pouring into them.

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It's, I think it's a tragic thing when we think, well, I turn up for church,

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I get poured into, that's enough. It's like, no, because the purpose of this body is, as Paul says in the end of that little section in Ephesians four, 11 to 16, is that the body is supposed to grow itself.

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Well, how does the body grow itself? Well, it's one member of the body contributing to another member of the body, and that's how the body grows.

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I think one of the things that has caused the problem in the Christian culture, because unfortunately many pastors don't want to take the time to do discipleship biblically, and so they say, oh,

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I disciple from the pulpit. And then what does that convey? That conveys that the people in the pews think, oh,

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I receive it from the, you know, from the, I'm just laughing because the gentleman over here is bringing a coffee.

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Hey, Scott, thanks for the coffee. So he, so when you go, have you ever been to the

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Ambassador's Academy? Yes. So, oh, so maybe I can get a coffee out of you. So let's see, so when you go to the

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Ambassador's Academy, they give you a coin. That's the coin that fell earlier today. Oh.

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See, that's how I get my free coffees when I'm at conferences. Nice. And so, you know, there was a challenge coin that we had that if you show the coin and the other person doesn't have it, you have to buy them coffee.

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So, you know, if you don't have your coin on your coat, so that's what Scott was doing. Nice. Scott was my roommate the first time

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I was at the Academy. And so I figured I'd have fun challenging him. So he actually honored it and got me a cup of coffee, which

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I'm glad at because I didn't have one this morning. So we were talking, the fact,

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I think, is that many pastors try to say that they disciple from the pulpit and the people in the pews start thinking, well, that's what discipleship is.

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This is how we do it. And I think that's what has hurt. Discipleship is why so many churches are hurting.

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Do you think if people did biblical discipleship across America in churches, do you think there would be as much of an issue as we have with like Word of Faith and Joel Stein and people like that?

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Let me come back to something you just said, that language of what I disciple from the pulpit. So last year's

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G3 conference was about discipleship. And, um, oh.

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I just want to say thank you for being here. We're going to take a pause right now. Hold on one sec. Okay, so sorry for that interruption.

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That was - Oh, it's all good. That was Josh Bice. When Josh Bice comes by to thank you for being here.

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No, he's that honcho. When he comes, we stop. He's stopping. Yeah. So, yeah, and I knew we weren't going to get him on an interview with, he's running around crazy.

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Oh, yeah, yeah. So, right. So this idea of what I disciple from the pulpit. So last year's conference was on discipleship.

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And Dr. Wally Barkham spoke to that question. And he essentially said, actually, as a pastor, you can't just say what

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I disciple from the pulpit. Because that's not the apostolic model. The apostolic model was

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Paul spent time with Timothy. And that means you're going to have to reorder as a pastor, sometimes reorder how things go in your life so that you can invest time in that.

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Use the example, you know, you can't go visit everybody in the hospital. Or sometimes you might not be able to do all the counseling you'd like.

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Because this thing of training ministers, of training future leaders, who in turn go and train other believers, that's going to have to take priority.

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Now, to that question of, if discipleship were happening, would we be dealing with the Word of Faith, the

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NAR and various other movements out there? Yeah, I think there is a relationship between the vacuum that exists where discipleship isn't happening and the sort of influx of false teaching that follows.

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Because spiritually speaking, there are never any vacuums. If something good is not there, what's the analogy

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Jesus uses in the parable? When a demon's cast out from someone, that, you know, he goes, so he leaves, he comes back, sees the place is clean and what have you, and says, oh,

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I miss this place. And he says, well, he goes and gets seven demons more terrible than this. That general analogy of, okay, if you leave something empty, spiritually, it's going to get filled.

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Now, is it going to be filled by the truth or is it going to be filled by error? And I think what we've seen is in many churches, even those that would not say they are themselves

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Word of Faith or NAR will have, because they're not getting solid biblical teaching. I've lost track of the amount of times

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I've gone to ostensibly conservative evangelical churches. And I hear from the ladies in the church that they're listening to Joyce Meyer, for instance.

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And like, well, I don't see anything wrong. It's just really positive and encouraging because they're not being fed where they are.

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And so they're, you know, it's kind of like, I'm thirsty and then I'm going to start drinking out of my toilet bowl.

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Well, there's an illustration, but here's the thing. I think that, you know, like the

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Joel Steens and all that, they're about just attending church. They're just fill the pew, get someone that just to feel good and walk out.

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But they don't know the feeling of biblical discipleship and how good that is.

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I think that, you know, you were saying with Vody and the thing he said, it's interesting because I think part of the problem is the role of the pastor has changed from what the biblical model is.

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The role of the pastor used to be that he was among his people, serving, teaching, discipling.

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You look at a guy like Calvin who would preach every day, but he'd also be among his people every day. And in American churches now, it seems like it's more about, well,

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I got to build the marketing and the ministry. It's about building the ministry. And that's just a change.

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And I think discipleship has lost out. And I think that's the biggest reason that the church is so weak.

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I agree, I agree. It's again, the body's supposed to build itself up in love. And if you are short circuiting the means that God has given for the body to build itself up in love, then weakness will follow, weakness in multiple areas, whether it's,

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I don't think it's by accident we constantly keep seeing, even in our reform circles, you know, ministers who disqualify themselves morally.

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Because, okay, you may think, okay, if I have my theology as great as it should be, we're still part of this culture that kind of views the pastor almost as a

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CEO, marketing guy, CFO, visionary, thought lead, all of those things.

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And doesn't have a category for, well, he is a pastor teacher.

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Pastor, he's a shepherd to the flock, and he's a teacher. He opens up God's word for the edification of the saints.

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Yeah, and that's been a heartbeat for both you and I. We both feel that discipleship is crucial.

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I'll say that we at Shriver's Prairie look forward to seeing your writings. Thank you. As we work together, it's a kinship we have, because we have a love for Christ, a love for the word of God, and a love for his people.

27:43

Absolutely, absolutely. Thanks for coming on. Hey, thanks for having me. Look forward to seeing you at Shepherd's Conference.

27:49

Oh, we'll be definitely there, yeah. We're definitely gonna be there. All right. Okay, so that was

27:55

Kofi. And before we get to Fred Butler, a great, great interview with Fred Butler. And we're gonna talk about those early years with John MacArthur.

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Gonna talk about some of the conferences going on, just some of behind the scenes with Grace to You.

28:09

Before we get that, I want to invite you to a special conference. It is called Sanctification Through Suffering Conference.

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Nobody wants to go to a conference about suffering, and yet so many of us actually suffer. We do.

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There's people, even Christians, who struggle with anxiety, struggle with depression. Some people struggle with physical things.

28:30

People struggle with a spouse or children. Maybe people who have a child that has physical needs.

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And there are many different ways that we as Christians struggle. And unfortunately, most of us struggle alone.

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We are too ashamed to let anyone know that we are struggling. Well, that's what this conference is about.

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Keynote speakers will be Justin Peters and Frank Mullis. There'll be some breakout sessions for the guys and girls.

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We'll be with Joe Suazo. For the ladies only, will be Colleen Sharp from Theology Gals. And so, the thing is, we want to help you or to help you help others.

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The conference will be in Freehold, New Jersey. It's gonna be held March 15th and 16th of 2019.

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And all the details and to register, conference is gonna cost about $40.

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If you can't afford it, there is a link to avoid the payment or to pay less, pay what you can.

29:35

But we basically still have to fly the speakers out and pay them because, well, this is how the guys like Justin make a living.

29:43

But we're bringing these guys out so they can help you. Experts in the field.

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And so, we would like you to consider registering, telling friends, please share this online so that others will know.

29:57

But all the details can be found at strivingforeternity .org conference -on -suffering.

30:05

So that's strivingforeternity .org slash conference -on -suffering.

30:17

I will have the link to that in the show notes so that you can just click on that and get it.

30:24

But please, register for this conference. This may be one of the most valuable conferences because so many of us don't have people that will pour into our lives this way.

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What we're probably gonna do is end the conference a little bit early. The plan, at least, will be to end it with a

30:43

Q &A Saturday afternoon. And then after that, we're actually thinking about just opening up so that people can get more specific questions answered by some experts.

30:55

And so, it'll be more of a, we're still working through whether we wanna do like a small groups or one -on -one, but opportunities to be able to get some help with things you may be struggling with, maybe some things you don't let anyone else know about.

31:11

Now, we realize that for many, this is really hard for them to be able to afford it or to be able to get to it.

31:18

So, if you want to help us, you could go to our donate page at strivingforeternity .org

31:25

slash donate, and you could donate money to help put on this conference, help others get to the conference.

31:33

We have some folks, I mean, Justin Peters, for folks who don't know, he has cerebral palsy.

31:39

He's had to live with that his whole life. We have Pastor Frank Mullis. He is an expert in the area of counseling with sexual addiction, sexual abuse.

31:53

And so, that comes up a lot. Pastor Joe Suazo is someone who was a missionary to India for 10 years and fought with depression and anxiety, more so depression when he had to come back from the field because of health issues.

32:05

While he was there, he struggled with health and then came back and struggled with some depression.

32:12

And Colleen Sharp is a mother who has had to deal with long -term struggles and ailments that can affect mothering, which will be very important for the ladies.

32:22

So, those are some of the things we're gonna do. We're going to cover an understanding that God can use our suffering for our sanctification.

32:31

I hope you'd check that out. Again, it's strivingforeternity .org slash conference dash on dash suffering.

32:40

Check it out, register, and tell your friends. And after this interview,

32:46

I will give you guys some more information to read some reviews from folks.

32:51

So, here is Fred Butler from Grace To You. All right, so I'm sitting down here at G3 with the great

33:00

Fred Butler. Hello, brother. So, Fred, you're out here with Grace To You. We are.

33:05

So, what are you guys doing with your booth and stuff? What are you promoting this year? Well, it is our 50th anniversary with Grace To You, and 2019 marks the 50th year that John began pastoring at Grace Community Church.

33:22

So, 1969, February, I don't remember the exact date. I'm gonna say February 9th, maybe.

33:28

I can't remember. He began to pastor Grace Church. I think

33:33

I was like a baby. I was like two months old or something. I was like, I think I calculated it once, when he started

33:39

Grace Community Church, I think I was like nine or 10 months old. I was just selling diapers, which is just crazy to think.

33:47

Yeah, I know it is, and America hadn't even landed on the moon yet. I mean, so that's how it would have been that July that that happened.

33:57

And so, we mark our anniversary, Grace To You's anniversary, with him preaching, because somebody had the forethought to record his first message in the pulpit, which we still have.

34:10

I think they're even offering that as a free offer this month for Grace To You. So, if you're on our mailing list, you get a response card to get that.

34:20

Was that the famous message where he went through Romans seven, the real law?

34:26

No, no, no, that was, I think that happened in December. If I remember correctly, he came in either

34:34

November, December, this church was looking for a pastor, looking for a young guy, because the previous pastor had been there for like two years, he was an older gentleman, and he died of a heart attack.

34:47

And so, they were looking for someone who would be prepared to be there on the long haul, so they weren't wanting a young guy.

34:55

John was, I think, 29 or something at the time. And so, he came to that church.

35:01

There were a number of folks who knew of his dad, who was in Burbank. If you're familiar with Grace Church, you're in San Fernando Valley.

35:09

But at that time, San Fernando Valley was nothing but orange groves and agriculture stuff.

35:17

So, this church, it was kind of out there in this field, you know, down this two -lane road.

35:23

And John came, and they invited him. Hey, would you be interested in doing this?

35:29

John was working for Talbot, I think, kind of going around, doing what he did at conferences, where he'd promote, go preach and promote the seminary.

35:37

And John wanted something more permanent and wanted a pastor, preach on a regular basis. And so, he took the opportunity and went over there on a

35:47

Sunday and preached his, yes, his infamous hour -and -a -half -long sermon on Romans 6 and 7, or 5 and 6, or whatever it was.

35:56

And they liked him so much that they said, hey, come back, but just make it shorter.

36:04

And so, his first day was, I think, in February of 1969. Now, Grace, to you,

36:11

I don't think came on the official scene as a radio broadcast on a daily basis until like the late 70s, like 1978.

36:21

But it certainly started recording all of his stuff in 69, so that's where we kind of mark our anniversary as well.

36:30

And his, whereas we have a lot of activities planned this year, obviously, there's going to be the whole thing with the

36:38

Shepherds Conference happening in March, first week of March, talking about faithfulness and standing firm and all that.

36:48

I don't even remember the name of the. Faithfulness. Faithfulness or something like that. And then, there's the whole thing with regards to October, where Grace, you will have our

36:58

Truth Matters Conference. It's gonna be on the sufficiency of scripture. Some people have been calling it the strange fire too.

37:07

I don't know if it's gonna be so much that as it is, because it's just talking about faithfulness to scripture, sufficiency, how it is timeless.

37:18

We're living in a day and age when that is absolutely challenged. The scriptures can't address homosexuality or any of the cultural ills that we're struggling with.

37:30

We have to find other clever means to reach people, but that's not the case.

37:35

We believe scripture is timeless, that it does not change. You can be the vice president's wife, teaching at a school.

37:44

She's not teaching something novel or separate from Christianity. This has been historic

37:50

Christian belief with regards to sexuality, and we believe it's unalterable.

37:57

It's from the mind of God. And so, we're going to emphasize that.

38:03

We're gonna have folks coming in to proclaim sermons and just the word of God centered around that.

38:11

Well, John's been kind of fighting that battle, inerrancy, pretty much all of his life.

38:17

Yeah, I mean, he was invited early on with James Boyce to do the statement on inerrancy.

38:25

Yes, he was. So, he's kind of fought that one battle his entire career, actually.

38:31

I know, and I think his, I think I remember hearing him say something like, you know, you would think you would be debattling people who are enemies of the church.

38:39

You didn't think you was gonna be battling people within the church. And that seems like that's the major struggle

38:46

I think all Christians have, is bad teaching in the church, people who have just catastrophic ideas that lead people in all kinds of snares and theological error that is just ensnaring.

39:04

And I mean, it just messes up their lives. It goes from the charismatic stuff to the higher criticism stuff that doubts the

39:11

Bible and the historicity of scripture. And John's been a rock in all that, which

39:17

I've appreciated. Yeah, that's, I think, one of the things he ended up saying. I mean, 50 years and he's been consistent, hasn't been flip -flopping all around and changing his view.

39:27

Yeah, I know, it's not like, I've come to a mature understanding of justification and here's my weird take on it and it's, you know,

39:35

NT Wright Light or something. Yeah, that's true. He's not, he hasn't changed his views on creation.

39:42

He hasn't changed his views on the historicity of the Old Testament. He hasn't changed his views on the life of Christ or you have to find the historical

39:54

Jesus or whatever it is. I think the only thing I could think of that, and he wrote on this, he changed his view on the eternal sonship.

40:02

Yes. And it's like, to me, that's not a big deal. That's not a big deal and he became more orthodox.

40:07

That's what people tend to forget. They think that he, you know, he tightened up his understanding of the

40:12

Trinitarian work on the cross. Yeah. And even then, you know, it was just him talking about his semantics and how you understand the titles.

40:23

He wasn't denying the deity of Christ, which some people try to tie him to. Yeah. I think one of the best messages you can listen to, it's not even a message, but it's a

40:33

Q &A that John did before the IFCA, the Independent Fundamental Churches of America, and they had brought all these charges about him denying the blood of Christ, denying the sonship of Jesus.

40:48

I can't remember. There were several topics they hammered him with. That started with a guy,

40:53

I forget the guy's name, but this was the early introduction to discernment ministries.

40:59

Yes. The guy that had the discernment notebook. And he used to, I actually still have the notebook.

41:04

Okay. And he would send you a new thing, like every month or every week. To add to the notebook.

41:10

To add to the notebook. And it's just, after a while I ended up realizing, how do you keep coming up with all this stuff on all these people?

41:17

Every month you're getting a new insert to your notebook. And I started to realize that that was the incident that got me to realize, because I went back and listened to the sermon.

41:25

And went, listen in context. And John's not saying what you're claiming.

41:32

Yeah, I know. And it was, it boggled my mind that one guy makes a statement, puts it into his notebook, and now everyone's, and it's still even all these years later.

41:44

Like that was what? Like 30 years ago. Yes, people still. And people still bring up that he denies the blood. And it's like, just because some guy wrote, came up with this idea.

41:54

And it's like, oh, I needed something to put in the notebook for this month. You know? And some folks at Bob Jones that didn't like him for some reason, they circulated that rumor.

42:03

And I remember when I was coming out to California, and I was in Arkansas, and I was like in my last year as a senior in college, working in the cafeteria as my part -time job to kind of help pay the bills, washing dishes with this fundamentalist guy.

42:24

And we were starting to talk about what we were gonna do, and I was talking about coming to seminary and all that, and he said,

42:29

John MacArthur, well he denies the blood. You want to deny the blood with this guy? And so I started to talk with him about that, and just the, there was a lot of ignorance about what

42:39

John was even meaning, and just the people who were trying to go after him.

42:45

And I don't know if I convinced him or compelled him to change his views, but I just told him,

42:51

I said, you know, this is ridiculous what you're claiming. I mean, this is what he means by that. And even

42:57

John, when he printed the Hebrew commentary, and he, I mean, he tried his best to be as clear and precise with what he's meaning so that you wouldn't have these, just to kind of answer those critics.

43:11

But he's always been like that. He's had to deal with these kind of wonky views.

43:17

Well, I think what it's like, the latest one I was hearing from someone is, oh, he, they're making a big deal about him saying that people could, after the rapture, take the mark of the beast.

43:29

And it's like, I still haven't found out what sermon that's from so I could listen to the content. It was a Q and A. It was a Q and A. Someone asked him about that.

43:36

And he, and John, if I remember, and it's like 30 years ago. Someone asked him about that. Oh, so this isn't a recent.

43:41

No, this is like 30 years ago. And he said, he said, well, if somebody was to take the mark of the beast, and this is assuming that the mark is a physical tattoo or some kind of, you know, insert into your head or I don't know.

43:56

And so he said, if someone took the mark, could they repent? You know, realize that they were, you know, stupid for doing this and change their life.

44:07

And John said, well, of course. I mean, salvation doesn't, you know, prevent you from doing that.

44:14

or, you know, your sin doesn't prevent you, God, from saving you for, and it's just the whole thing with the mark of the beast.

44:21

And, you know, some of the finality passages that talk about when you take the mark of the beast and cast in a lake of fire kind of thing is people, obviously you are, you are lost, who have, you know, they didn't repent at all.

44:35

I mean, the mark is just sort of an indicator that these individuals did not, you know, get right with God.

44:41

It's not telling you that once you take the mark, it's you're doomed. You're sealed and going right to hell in a big chute or something.

44:48

And, you know, goodbye. you know, it's not like that. It's, in John, and I remember when this became an issue, it was some

44:55

YouTuber guy that I think brought this up. And his, we saw

45:02

John like the next weekend or the next Monday or something after this was going on and going into his office and asking him about it.

45:09

And he said, hey, John, you know, do you still believe this? He's like, well, why couldn't

45:15

God save somebody if they took a mark and didn't know what they were doing? I mean, God saves us all the time from stupid decisions.

45:23

And so we were like, yeah, I mean, that's true. I mean, we don't want to, you know, it was an amazing,

45:31

I appreciated his comment, how he, you know, and when you're answering a Q and A, that's different than when you're working on a sermon.

45:36

Yes. I try to look at his commentary. I don't remember that being addressed in his commentary.

45:43

Well, you know, one of the things that you see with it is, I think a lot of times these people come, you know, like with this guy with the sermon notebook, he comes with, you know, he needs to put something out.

45:53

Right, right. So when you got to keep putting something out, you get sloppy. Yes. You know,

45:58

I think as I ended up noticing, this guy starts making stuff up and then you get people who just want to believe it.

46:05

It doesn't matter. Look, listen to the context. This is what John's saying. Some people just don't care.

46:10

They would rather believe the lie than accept what he really means by it because they just don't like them.

46:18

They don't want him to say something right. Yeah. They want something to use. They're trying to find, they're looking for some kind of scandal or something to take down his ministry.

46:26

And it's really, that's kind of a bad attitude. I don't, I've never understood why people have that mindset.

46:34

Even to this day, there's individuals who are, they trying to find, dig up dirt on John.

46:42

They're always trying to find some obscure things either said or some decision he made at the college or whatever it is.

46:49

Oh yeah. So there's some kind of scandal here. It's being covered up. No. If it was unbelievers doing that,

46:55

I can understand. It's when it's people who complain, claim to it. Usually it is unbelievers who are doing it. Well, yeah. I know what you mean.

47:01

but it's people that claim to be Christians that are doing it the most. And that's the thing that's so frustrating. Right.

47:07

You know, is it, they profess Christ, but you're right. Like, you know,

47:12

I have to, I forget the guy's name who did the discernment notebook, but you got to start to wonder after a while, what are you doing this for?

47:19

Yeah. Your own claim to fame, or are you doing this, you know, really because you're trying to discern.

47:25

And this is why I love it. Like a guy like, you know, Todd Friel or Justin Peters. There, you see guys that,

47:31

I mean, one of the things that always amazes me with a guy like Todd Friel is he does discernment, but it's like, there's this line.

47:38

He'll always say, well, this is what we know. Like with, with dealing with someone that's professing a

47:44

Christian. Social justice stuff, I think is a good example of that. Yeah. Yeah. He goes, okay, this is what we know.

47:49

This is what they said. Could they be doing this? We don't know that. And he'll always do that.

47:54

He, it's like, he knows where there's a line. He knows where there's a line. It's like, okay, we won't go over that.

48:00

And sometimes he'll be like, well, we're not going to name the person because we haven't confirmed whether this account is, is really right.

48:07

You know? And, and just, here's, here's the things we can learn from this, but we're not going to name the person. Cause he, it's like, he doesn't want to, you know, damage the reputation if it's not true.

48:17

It's like, he always knows where that line is. Never goes over. Right. Right. You know?

48:22

And I think that's an important thing for folks to, especially for like, I never think it's good to just do discernment or just do any one, you know,

48:31

I think people get out balanced if it's just, you know, the same thing, even like, you know, you take any ministry, whether it's like living waters that just does evangelism.

48:41

Right. Right. There's a lot of people that, that because they just do evangelism, they don't get into any of the other theological issues.

48:47

Oh, people have problems with it. Right. Right. and people would do the same thing with re -comfort. They hear the way he, he ends up preaching on the street.

48:54

Right. To an unbeliever. And they're like, Oh, he's, he's Armenian. He believes in work, salvation. It's like, that he doesn't say what he means.

49:00

He hasn't really made any kind of comment about that. So, that's kind of ridiculous to claim.

49:07

Yeah. I mean, but it's like, people want to look for things and it's like, he doesn't focus on that.

49:12

Now, in, in their case, I think they've, they've been good in not just not addressing it, but you've seen the ministries where everything goes through that, that tunnel of, okay, this is like the only thing you should be doing.

49:25

And when you get in sound like with the sermon notebook guy, it would have been good. Oh, I'll give you another example.

49:31

Chris, Chris state. Right. Right. That's a good, that's another good example. It's a real good example. And I've told Chris here's, you know, he's focused on one thing, but once I think he made a name for himself in that, in that realm,

49:43

Yes. Then all of a sudden it's like, he, he, he used to do like other, other podcasts with other topics.

49:49

But once he did the rethinking hell, it was like, everything is about rethinking hell. Everything's about that. Another good example would be latent flowers.

49:57

Yes. It's everything is, everything is Calvinism. Everything's, well, everything's anti -Calvinism. Oh yeah. That's what I was going to say.

50:02

All the evils in the world is Calvinist thought. We did a, we did a, for a while, we were doing an online

50:08

Bible study through Ephesians and Leighton jumped in and Leighton's sitting there and just makes the whole thing about Calvinism.

50:16

And it's just like he, and I, and one of the other guys is going back and forth, back and forth. Eventually I just said, wait, Leighton, do you disagree with all of us that with this passage?

50:26

I forget. I think it was like, I forget which passage, but he came to the same exact conclusion. I'm like, so why did you come in here and talk about all this stuff?

50:33

That's not in the text. Right, right, right, right. But, and that's where I think he gets blinded by it. Once you build that platform.

50:40

Right, right. It blinds you where you see everything. It's got to be just this thing. Yeah, there's a lot of guys that'll do that with eschatology stuff.

50:47

Yeah. Oh, that's right, yeah. And their whole, and everything is eschatology. That's their whole emphasis. And it shouldn't be your whole emphasis.

50:56

I mean, that's, you should have a well -rounded, and I guess you could, I mean, Calvinists can be the same way with that too.

51:01

Well, that's where the stage cage is, right? Yes, I mean, I know a lot of stage cage guys like that. And there's a fellow online, on Facebook that I kind of follow.

51:10

He's right now a stage cage anti -dispensationalist. And everything is anti -dispensationalist.

51:17

Like, okay, whatever. Most of those guys don't even define dispensationalism right anyway.

51:23

I know. Well, they'll say, well, I'm reading this book by this guy. And I'm like, well, okay. Well, there's a number of individuals who've written on this topic.

51:31

They've written well on this topic. And they've explained it well. They're all solid guys.

51:36

I had someone who made a statement. Kooky guy, you know, that you want to come after. A guy on Facebook was like, well, dispensationalism is fraught with errors and always leads you astray or something like that.

51:47

And someone tagged me to bring me into it. And I'm just like, I knew the person. And I'm like, you know, this, this,

51:52

I really don't, I'm not interested. The reality is, and I forget exactly how he worded it, but it's like, you know, that applies to covenant theology too.

51:58

Yes, I do the same thing. It's like, there's errors there too. You know, it's there, every system's going to have problems.

52:05

And, you know, because we're men, not God. And we're on this side of glory. And you don't have a full, complete knowledge of that.

52:12

And the thing that got me was, it's like, look, when you have all these people telling you that you're misrepresenting what dispensationalism is, you should listen.

52:21

He goes, no, I grew up this, so I know. And I was like, man, it sounds like Leighton. You know, everyone tells

52:26

Leighton, you're misrepresenting it, but I grew up this, so I know. And it's like, if you grew up that way, I grew up a lot of different ways too.

52:34

And there's, I didn't know a lot of things, you know, I thought I knew it, but I didn't. And so, you know, try, you want to try to always represent and be honest.

52:43

And I think, and I've always, that's one of the things, and going back to John, it's just his, I've appreciated that he has stuck with the scriptures.

52:52

He's tried to build his, you know, his various points of contention with people from the text.

53:00

He wants that to be the focal point. What does the Bible say? And I think when I went to seminary, and I even instill this into my kids, and they ask questions,

53:09

I'm like, well, what does the text say? You know, what is it telling us? Do we look at it?

53:14

And it's like, it's just, you know, plainly means this. And John has been just faithful in really emphasizing that, and hammering that in, and allowing that to be his authority, in not all of our various opinions that we've cooked up over the years.

53:31

Kind of come with that, you know? Well, thanks for coming on. We got Shepherd's Conference coming.

53:36

There's gonna be an extended one. Yes, it's supposed to be four days. Four days, and on faithfulness with his 50th year, so I'm looking forward to it.

53:43

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, too. The Shepherd conferences are always a great time. G3 is a great time, too, because it's,

53:50

Shepherd's Conference doesn't have the vendors coming in like they do here, but it's good to see folks coming in that's, you know, men that you've been faithful to pastor churches, and teach over the years, and fellowship, and have

54:06

In -N -Out burgers, and the stuff that they bring in for us. Well, hey, thanks for coming on.

54:13

Oh, it was a delight. Yeah, good to see you again. Alrighty. I'll see you in Shepherd's Conference.

54:18

Okay. All right. All right, well,

54:25

I'm glad that you got to hear those two interviews from G3. I'll let you know that next week, we will be having

54:32

Todd Friel coming on. We're gonna be talking about discernment. That is a great, great episode.

54:38

You will really get a lot out of that. He provides some great kind of rules or principles.

54:45

When should we name names, and when should we not? Let me give a shout -out. We got a review that came in, a five -star review from cjohns777.

54:54

He says, Andrew does a great job of taking time and viewing many different sides of a story, as well as thoroughly explaining his beliefs.

55:05

We appreciate that. If you want us to read your review, well, you'd have to actually write the review.

55:12

Encourage you to go to iTunes and leave us a review so that we could read it.

55:17

We get to be encouraged by how this ministry, this podcast may be helping you.

55:23

We really don't know unless we see you at a conference and people come up and say, I listened to your podcast. That is greatly encouraging to me personally because a lot of times, this is a lot of work and I don't always wanna do it.

55:36

Those reviews, just reading through them, that is what helps me stay motivated to keep trying to teach and train folks here through this means.

55:46

And it is something that we do as a ministry of striving for eternity. We're part of, this podcast is part of the

55:53

Christian Podcast Community where you can find a whole bunch of great podcasts out there, podcasts that are being put on or done by men like Justin Peters, Theology Gals is out there,

56:05

Apologetics Live, which is Matt Slick from karm .org and myself. And if you haven't heard, you could find out that we actually did a podcast awards.

56:18

The Christian Podcast Community had their Christian Podcast Awards for 2018.

56:24

And that's something that you can just look if you are subscribed to the

56:31

Christian Podcast Community podcast. On that feed is where we're gonna drop that each year.

56:38

There's gonna be different awards in the future where we got some plans to give some awards to folks.

56:44

So be checking that out and let us know if there's some podcasts you like that you want us to consider.

56:52

So you can always contact us at email or sorry, info. You can email us at info at strivingforeternity .org.

57:01

Info at strivingforeternity .org. We look forward to hearing from you.

57:08

Until next week, remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God. This podcast is part of the

57:14

Striving for Eternity ministry. For more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.