September 26, 2018 Show with Gareth Schuth, Mike Endres, & Charlie Liebert on “My Christian Children’s Education: What Should I Do?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnton your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 26th day of September 2018 and I have just returned

Monday, day before yesterday, from a trip to Long Island, New York that was one that I was filled with anxiety over for quite a while.

This was a day which began on Friday of last week where I had to begin,

I didn't have to, I voluntarily began to retrieve salvageable personal items from my childhood home which was also subsequently the dream home of my late wife and mine when my parents passed away and we purchased the home from my siblings and had it renovated and the home unfortunately years ago went into foreclosure and it was rescued from an auction and thankfully

I was able to very quickly sell the home in a short sale through a wonderful organization called a

Realty Warehouse in Melville, Long Island and before the new owner began his renovations

I was given the opportunity to retrieve personal belongings and it was a really devastating experience personally both mentally, emotionally, and spiritually entering into the home which had been vacant for seven years, had been vandalized, had been invaded by wildlife like raccoons and so on.

The house was a wreck so it was emotionally devastating to say the least and I just want to thank

God for Officer Kevin Degnan of the Suffolk County Police Department who was a captain and now he's something higher than that.

I can't remember the exact title that he now has that he was promoted to but he's with the

Marine Division in Suffolk County stationed in the

Great River Office of the Suffolk County Police Department. He went in there with me. He's been a friend of mine for many years going back to the early 90s.

He went in there with me for the first day to retrieve hand carryable items, small items that had personal deep value for me just because of the personal nature of the items and he just volunteered to go underneath the house in the crawlspace, crawl on his stomach to grab some of these things.

He even wanted me to sit in the car while he did this because he realized how emotionally devastating this was and then the following day,

Saturday from about 10 a .m. to 8 30 p .m. I had a legion of angels come to help me, none of whom

I knew except one person, none of whom I knew beforehand except one person.

That was Joe Matone who is a contractor. I've known him for many years.

He's a born -again believer in Christ. His nephew Ethan and one of his employees with his contracting firm,

Joshua, they rented a box truck, did most of the furniture moving from the house into the box truck.

A wonderful couple that I had never met before but if I had met before I don't remember them but I wanted to give thanks to this dear couple from Hope Reform Baptist Church, Rob and Julie.

They are with the Ministry to the Needy of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Suffolk County, Long Island in Medford currently and soon to be in, excuse the children screaming from across the hallway from my apartment, they are the neighbor's children.

But this couple, I am so glad that the Lord through his providence caused our paths to cross in this unique situation where they volunteered to help.

Rob and Julie Spanarelli. Also, a woman that I had never met from the

North Shore Community Church of Oyster Bay, Long Island, New York where my friend for many years,

Pastor John Yenshko is the pastor. He made an announcement of my need for help to clean out items from the house and this wonderful woman

Karen Connolly who is the manager of the

Hope for Long Island Thrift Store which is a thrift store of North Shore Community Church in Oyster Bay. She came and she did the work of five men.

She was a whirlwind of energy and enthusiasm collecting things for the thrift store, every dish, cup, plate, fork, knife, and spoon.

She's just an amazing woman. I don't have enough to say about her. I am grateful to all of them and grateful to God for them.

I'm still in somewhat of an emotional state right now so if I remember anyone else who may have helped me that I'm not remembering at this moment,

I will let you know. But it was not only a heart -wrenching, devastating, and depressing time but it was a wonderful time of blessing to meet these people and also to be reunited with my friend

Joe Matone who I have known and to see the love and compassion and enthusiasm that they poured into helping me and the fact that they were thanking me throughout the entire episode instead of me thanking them.

And I did thank them but they were thanking me for the privilege of helping me do this and it just helped so enormously for me to get through this experience.

But I thank all of you who had prayed and your prayers were definitely answered. God sent to me a legion of angels as I told you to to help me with this very devastating experience but also a final chapter that I can put behind me now in my life.

But now today we are having our first live broadcast since my return to Carlisle, Pennsylvania and I'm excited to have two first -time guests and also a returning guest who

I've interviewed a number of times who's also been my co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a number of times.

First of all, let me introduce that friend of mine who you've no doubt heard on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio if you listen regularly,

Charlie Liebert who is an author, has experience in the education system, and is also the founder of sixdaycreation .com.

It's great to have you in the studio, Charlie Liebert. Thank you Chris, it's great to be here. And for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio we have

Gareth Schuth who is the headmaster of Grace Baptist Christian School in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's great to have you in the studio. Chris, thank you. And then last but not least we have my friend

Mike Endress who is a third grade teacher and technology coordinator at the

Grace Baptist Christian School in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Mike Endress, it's great to have you in the studio as well for the first time.

Thanks Chris, it's nice to be here, and welcome to all those who are joining us today. And today we are going to be talking about, obviously,

Christian education and more specifically my children's education,

What Shall I Do? A Christian Educator's Analysis and Advice, which is actually the latest book by my guest here today,

Charlie Liebert. But before we get into all of that, I'm going to announce our email address for all of you who are listening who have questions of your own regarding Christian education.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. I would like to begin with Gareth Schuth, since he is a first -time guest, and as we normally do on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, we have first -time guests give summaries of their salvation testimony.

What kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances did the

Lord rise up in your life that drew you to himself, to the place where you were eventually saved by him?

Great. Well, thank you, Chris. And it's always good to give a testimony, and it's something that I feel like we maybe don't talk about enough as our own testimonies.

But I thank you for the opportunity to share what the Lord has done. I was privileged to have

Christian parents. My mom took me to church as early as I can remember. My dad, as well, had an interest, of course, in my upbringing.

We went to a Wesleyan church in upstate New York, in western Rochester. It was there

I was guided by some very godly men and women, at Sunday school, in the church, in our youth group.

I would say, though, that the experience that I had that's most memorable and notable was fairly early on when

I was at a Christian camp. Christian camps, as you know, if you are around Grace Baptist Christian school at all, are something that are important to a lot of our teachers.

But this one, particularly for me, when I was probably six or seven, I was at a

Christian camp during the summertime and really just felt like I understood who the Lord was for the first time and made a profession of faith then.

I was in high school, however, when I was a junior. It was then when

I was finally baptized. I think that was just a matter of me taking hold of what

I thought I knew and making it my own. And even yet, as the Lord is often doing in our hearts, just bringing us to greater realization of who he is.

And I found myself in college finding a little bit of a crisis point as I was in a college situation where there were many people who were actually questioning their faith or introduced to new doctrines that were foreign.

I even had the analysis that our professors may have been poking some holes in our

Sunday school theology, but not really filling those holes. That may not have been accurate. I can't paint the entire institution like that, but that was certainly the case for many of us in the circles in which

I ran. So I found myself a bit of a crisis point, realizing that what I had may not have been enough in my own viewing.

It was then that some of my friends said, hey, there's this book that's been passed around. It's called

Today's Gospel. And hey, look at this. There's this place in Carlisle. We're pretty close to Carlisle.

Let's go to this church. And it was then I was really introduced to the doctrines of grace, which really gave voice to the things

I really thought I did believe. But the authority of the scripture, sovereignty of God were probably never clearer in my picture in my mind until I came across those at grace.

And I've been thankful to have been part of the church since then in about 2004, 2005. And of course, the

Lord is not done with me yet. So his testimony should and will continue in my life. Amen.

And when did the notion come about in your mind that you wanted to be involved in Christian education?

That's a great question. I'm not sure it ever came into my mind. Chris, someone had to stick it there. Yeah, I grew up in a public school.

I was very content. I didn't know many people who went to Christian schools. Those that did didn't seem to have much of a walk to their faith.

And that, of course, is not indicative of all Christian schools by any means. But the ones that I came across, that was the case.

I actually was teaching music in a public school for a year before there was an opening at grace in math and science.

And I love math and science. And then the opening came and I said, yes. And I would say, Chris, even in those first year or two,

I didn't know. I didn't get it. We'll put it that way. I didn't get Christian education the way

I do today. I didn't value it. I didn't see it as important as it was, as it is.

So it took some learning curve with those around me pouring into me and making that a priority, even as I taught in a

Christian school. So I would say it's been a process. OK, Mike Endres, you are also a first time guest.

Let's hear something about your personal testimony about what kind of religion, if any, you were raised in and the providential circumstances the

Lord raised up to draw you to himself. Thank you, Chris. When you had mentioned earlier that we would give testimonies today of our conversion, providence is the word that rose in my mind as well.

So I grew up going with my family to an

Episcopal church in New Jersey. And I'm not going to categorize

Episcopal churches all the same. But at this church, it seemed more like a country club.

And we were—certainly there were things there I appreciated there that were spiritual, and I recognized, even though it wasn't mine, but things in the

Common Book of Prayer, the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, things that I had memorized.

There were even opportunities that I was asked to read the scriptures, and I would want to do it correctly.

And during the service, as a young kid, they had us read some of the lessons. And so here

I was going over the word again and again so I'd say it right. And yet I knew there was power in it, but I didn't understand it.

But by the Lord's providence, a camp that I had intended to go with on a canoe trip—it was a scout camp—that camp folded, went out of business.

And a friend of my father's told me about a camp in New York, Northern Frontier Camp in North River, New York.

And it was a Christian camp, and they were doing a canoe trip.

So I got information about it. And among the packing list of all these things

I was to bring on this serious wilderness trip was a Bible. And the only

Bible I had was gold -leafed, and it sat on a shelf dusty since my confirmation.

Probably about the size of a coffee table? Yeah, it was big. I'm not sure if it was that one or another one that I wrapped multiple times in Ziploc bags or whatever, but took it on a canoe trip.

And here I was exposed to young men who loved the Lord Jesus Christ, who loved his word and wanted me to know more about him.

This is not something I ran into before, except for perhaps one Sunday school teacher that I had had back in the

Episcopal church. But anyhow, go ahead. There's a tongue -teaser, tongue -tying particular

Episcopal. All right. Well, I thank you for that. Thanks for saving me on that. But anyhow,

I was blessed by these young men and went home and read my

Bible that year for a little bit, and that faded. And it happened a couple other years as I went on trips with this camp and became interested in spiritual things.

And then after a few weeks on my own, it faded. Until one summer when

I was on the staff as a junior counselor, I really felt the

Lord was convicting me of sin and drawing me to himself.

And I remember in the Episcopal church, I was given a special award for helping as an acolyte.

And that was a job I took seriously, though I didn't really understand it too well. But I remember receiving this award one night or one

Sunday morning and feeling the guilt of my sin. It was supposed to be an encouragement to my faith.

Well, it was in a way, but it brought me great guilt knowing that I had not truly sought the

Lord yet and that I was not living for him and that I had not repented of sin.

And so in many ways, that was a hard but a great blessing and brought me face -to -face with my need of a

Savior. So many years ago. And tell us about your journey into the field of education.

So I had worked through camps, through this camp as a junior counselor and as a collegian and working with young people all the time is something that I had done and enjoyed.

I had considered education while I was in college and had a little difficulty with my grades, keeping it up at the high level required to stay in the education program.

So I switched gears and worked in mental health and went into the mental health major that geared me into that.

And then after working in mental health for a few years, my wife has already, she started at the

Christian school at Grace Baptist as a second grade teacher. And I decided that I wanted to go back to school for a master's in education, an elementary ed, and I did that at Shippensburg University.

And when I finished, my daughter was born about that time.

And so my wife was leaving the school and I took her position directly. And it went from Mrs.

Endress to Mr. Endress, and I became the second grade teacher. This is now my 20th year serving at the

Christian school, and I've done it in a variety of positions, both elementary and middle, which is not uncommon, honestly, for a

Christian school teacher to have many different hats and many different roles. Soccer coach, boys' ensemble director, and I've enjoyed it immensely.

Praise God. And one note of interest to our audience is that Mike Endress happens to be the son -in -law of Charlie Liebert, the other guest of the three that I have mentioned.

And we've already had Charlie give his personal testimony on the program before.

So if you want to hear that, you could go back to some of the earlier interviews with Charlie Liebert. You can type in L -I -E,

B as in boy, E -R -T in the search engine where it says past shows podcast, and you'll find all of the interviews we've done with Charlie Liebert.

But just to give you a summary, it starts off with his actually meeting the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus.

But anyway. Not quite. He goes way back. Not quite. But Charlie, you have written a book with a provocative title.

And the book is My Christian Children's Education, What Should I Do?

A Christian Educator's Analysis and Advice. What was the main catalyst toward you writing this book?

Obviously, you believe there is something very seriously wrong with mainstream public education or even some would call it government education.

And there is not even universally good news in private

Christian schools either. No, not necessarily. But if you could. Let me go back and give you a little background. After I became a

Christian at age 35, I wrestled with a lot of the questions about Christianity. It took me probably about 10 years to kind of get myself straight in terms of apologetics and understanding what the faith was about.

After that time in Greensboro, North Carolina, where we were living, a local group decided to start a classical

Christian school called Caldwell Academy. And I was put on the board in the early days of the school. Later on,

I would teach both middle school and grammar school at that school. And that convinced me as I began to do research on that.

At the same time in the 1980s, when Reagan was president, he wrote a he had a study called Nation at Risk.

And that particular study exposed some of the problems with Christian education. I decided to put together a book that has basically three parts.

The first one is Educational Classical Foundations. The foundation of education in general in the

US public system is humanism. The Christian schools, of course, have the classical foundation of the

Bible. How well that's used is another issue. But that's the foundation. And I talk the first part of the book about those foundations, what they are, how they explain and how they influence education.

Then the next is the challenges we face. Things like textbooks, humanism, language, evolution, a little bit, just a little bit about evolution that's covered in some of my other books, and then the freedom of expression related to education, because there's a good deal of censorship going on in education.

And the third part is the one that really is kind of my heart. And that is the parents' biblical responsibility, the biblical mandate, and then issues about how do the how do parents implement that?

Some some parents will have to or won't have to. They generally are bound to put their children in public schools.

Well, if they're doing that as Christians, they're going to have to have to counter what's being poured into their children's heads. And that's going to be a big job.

So I recommend Christian education. But there are some that will do that. So I basically put in the last session here, how do you do it?

And I give the options, public school, private school, private Christian school, home school, all the different all the different options and explain which which

I think. And of course, my heart is in Christian classical Christian education. So that would be the background.

So that book has just been published recently. It does have on the front cover three pictures, one about 1950s when

I went to school called education, read and write and arithmetic. Okay, we were basically talking about the basics.

By 1980s, we have a nation at risk, Reagan study. And then finally, my last picture, which is the top one, which shows the school burned down, says public schools.

Humanist Foundation is failure by design. Well, I'd like each of you one by one to tell me what your greatest concern is to start off with with the public or government school system.

And we'll start with you, Charlie, and then we'll move on to Gareth Schuth. And then we'll hear from your son in law,

Mike Endres. All subjects have a foundation from which they spring. And you teach history, you teach geography, you teach mathematics, you teach language, all of those have a foundation in which they spring.

And the foundation, the basic difference between the foundations, and I'm getting very basic here, in humanism, the foundation is relativism.

The foundation in Christianity is a biblical foundation that is a set of absolutes.

And that's the difference. For example, when you teach education in a Christian school, you typically would teach it started with phonics, the sounds of the letters, and then develop into a concept of what language is.

Yes, I definitely remember I was educated in Catholic school. And I definitely remember the phonics.

Well, under the humanist system, that doesn't work that way. They use something called look say, which is basically using the language starting with whole words.

But what that's done is that's taken the absolute, which is the letters, out of the teaching, and put in concepts.

Well, that's backwards. Why do you think that was done? Because they can't countenance absolutes.

They want to be able to teach in a way that the language is understood as being a relativist rather than absolute.

I know it's a different approach, but that's pretty simple. The same thing is true in math. The new math, we don't teach numbers.

We start with numerical concepts. That's backwards. And students don't get it.

To your knowledge, are there any government schools teaching phonics and traditional math?

There are some. They're typically schools that are called charter schools. And they're basically saying, we're chartered by the state, but we teach with the methods of the 50s rather than the methods of the 2000s.

That'll be the difference. And Gareth Schuth, if you could tell us your greatest concerns about the public school system.

Yeah, I think the greatest concern would be that not that the public school doesn't have some things to offer and doesn't prepare kids for a future outside of the public school, but it inherently doesn't teach young Christians Christian thinking.

I understand what Charlie's saying, and I agree with that. Just to add to that, you have the element of time.

You have a child who is supposed to be educated under the tutelage, ultimately, of their parents.

And I think even good parents who send their child to public school understand that responsibility. But when you are having your child under the influence of others during that time, which undoubtedly has to happen unless you're homeschooling your child, the element of time is a large one.

It's a great multiplier when it comes to influence and education. And so when you are sending your children outside the home for that duration throughout the day to not be imposing or influencing or injecting your child with Christian ways of thinking and Christian ways of behaving and studying the catechism in the

Bible, you're going to have a problem. So it's not so much a problem I have with the public school per se as a public would use it, but as Christians going to a public school, you're going to have an issue at some point, whether it is clearly seen or not.

And Mike Endres. Well, one key thing that I see is that God is truth.

And we start with, what is truth? The children in public schools are not told that there is truth or that you can find your own truth as if there are many different truths.

You have your truth and I have my truth. They might be different, but both are truth. Well, that's nonsense. And it is very confusing.

I think of the young children when I think about this question primarily. I mean, they are taught as if God does not exist.

So your parents tell you that God exists, but we're going to spend an entire day as if he doesn't in whatever we talk about, as if he's a fairy tale or something like that.

And that is a huge concern of mine. And one of the things I appreciate most about teaching in our

Christian school from a biblical worldview is that we are showing the children that God is real and he is in everything.

We start with God is real, that God is sovereign, that God is true and you can trust in him and the scriptures are true.

We start there and the subjects that we teach flow from that understanding.

And so my greatest concern is that these children growing up in the public school are being taught that there is no

God. Well, we have a private or an anonymous question, which we will go to after we return from our first station break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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.nyc. Have a great day. And don't forget to continue to pray for Mike Gadosz, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, who not long ago had very serious and dangerous open -heart surgery.

As many of you know, he is recovering at home now after a successful surgery, but he's still not out of the woods.

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Solid -Ground -Books .com to help Mike overcome the dip in sales he experienced while laid up in the hospital.

That would be a great benefit to him and his family if you would do that, and I would appreciate it as well, since he is a faithful supporter of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

We are back now discussing Christian education with my guests Gareth Schuth, headmaster of Grace Baptist Christian School in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Mike Andress, third -grade teacher and technology coordinator at Grace Baptist Christian School of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and Charlie Liebert, who is the founder of SixDayCreation .com.

That's spelled S -I -X, by the way, not with a number. SixDayCreation .com, and he is also the author of a number of books, including one we are addressing today,

My Christian Children's Education, What Should I Do? A Christian Educator's Analysis and Advice.

And I just wanted to let our listeners know, I misread an email from a listener.

This was just meant to be a welcome home from overseas, from a listener to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Welcome home, Chris. It's wonderful to hear your voice again. I am so glad I tuned in to hear such a wonderful testimony as to God's great love and care and tenderness and support for you.

What a mighty God we serve. He brought you through this, and He will continue.

Welcome home again. Thank you very much, listener overseas, and we look forward to hearing from you with questions for our guests in the near future on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Well, before the break, Charlie, or actually during the break, you said that you wanted to respond to Gareth's last statement.

Yeah, I wanted to respond with a short story. Terry and I became Christians, and almost less than two years after that,

God moved us to Greenville, South Carolina, from Greensboro. And we began attending a

Reformed church called Mitchell Road Presbyterian, and while we were there, they have a Christian school.

And Dr. Cross, who was the pastor at the time, came to see us about sending our children to Christian school. Terry had tried three times to register my son at the local public school and been unsuccessful.

So in a sense, God blocked her. But he basically said this, and I'm going to try and paraphrase it as well as I can.

He basically said, there are two views of humankind, the humanist view and the biblical view, he said, and the two are in contradiction.

So he wanted to encourage us to send my son

Keith and Melanie to Christian school. So he said this, he said, if you send them to public school, you're going to have to counter what they're being taught, number one.

And number two, you're going to be putting them for five hours a day, and this is exactly how he said it, into the camp of the enemy.

That is, you're putting them in a camp where they are going to be bombarded by the humanist viewpoint in every subject.

And that convinced us. And from that time on, Melanie and Keith went to Christian school through their whole education. So that's part of the history of your wife,

Mike. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, what about parents who just simply cannot afford

Christian school? What is their alternative? There are two options, homeschool, which requires a commitment, a big commitment by the parents, or a commitment for them to basically take their children and daily,

I would say daily, ask them what they were taught today and raise any issues related to the humanist impact that the subject they're teaching is hitting the children.

And Gareth, you have any comments on that? Yeah, I would say Charlie's right on there.

It's a very difficult decision, and we understand that parents have mitigating circumstances, parents desire to have their kids educated by Christians who love their child mind, soul, and body and wish to have them under that influence, but just cannot.

And that is, it's discouraging to know that in one aspect. You know, it's something to consider.

I know we don't always think of these routes, but, you know, down the road, hopefully there may be some law changes that might benefit parents who might have greater school choice.

And I would say, you know, to be maybe vigilant on that end as well, that you could, you know, connect with people, many good

Christian representatives in our area who might say, hey, you know, that's something we should consider.

You know, it's not a silver bullet, and it's not right down the road in our timeline, but, you know, it would be great to see more kids being able to be put under the

Christian worldview day in and day out. If we really believe that every child is entitled to an education, then we should have a voucher system where the child can be educated under any context the parent wants.

I would say to Christians, fight for the voucher system, because then children will get an education based upon the parents' beliefs.

It's true for Christians or Islam or whatever, but I believe the parents have the right to determine what kind of education they should get, and as a result of that, they need to be able to empower them to do that for their children.

And Mike Endres? I think with anything that's important, we should really make sure that door is shut.

We may think, hey, I can't do this, I can't afford this. Are you sure?

I think where you need to start is contacting your local Christian school and asking about financial aid and see what's available.

On top of that, of course, and it depends on different families, but we live in a society today that wants to take their kids on a fancy vacation every year.

My dad took us camping, and that was very inexpensive. There are families that need to have two nice cars in their mind.

There are sacrifices that are worth it, and certainly sacrificing certain things for your children's education should be something you're willing to do, working more hours at a part -time job.

I have been amazed at some of the families who have come through Grace over the years who had, in the world's view, very low means, but they were willing to make the sacrifices and work hard and work with the school so that their children could be there.

And also, when the school boards of these schools and the headmasters of these schools, boy, when they hear the desires of the heart that the parents have that their children be educated in a

Christian school, and that's really coming out, sometimes major mountains will be moved, and along with prayer is where we need to start.

Lord, open this door. And I think some are probably too quick to say it's just not possible, where there are more steps that they need to take, and especially looking to the

Lord for this. And see that perhaps maybe it is possible. Mm, well put.

And there are different ideologies when it comes to even Christian schools, and even when it comes to classical

Christian schools, and even when it comes to all kinds of conservative Bible -believing schools, even

Reformed—I have to be careful when I say Reformed school, it's Reformed with an E -D, not

Reformed school. I don't know if they're still called juvenile delinquent school.

Okay, but there are some schools who insist both parents be

Christian. There are some schools that insist at least one be

Christian, and there are some that don't require Christianity in the belief system of either parent.

What is the ideology behind that question with the school where you guys serve?

Now, Gareth, do you want to start? Yeah, yeah, I would say that it is important that the parent is able to uphold the values that the school espouses.

We do not have a requirement that both parents profess Christianity.

We have a requirement that parents will allow us to teach the way we need to teach, and to, in a sense, aid us in doing that, that they will not be a roadblock to those things.

This allows the door for some parents who may not be coming for the reasons we may even have our doors open.

They may come because they don't want to be in a public school. They may come because their child is having difficulty, and there is a place,

I think, for schools to have that open to families who may not be entirely on board with where the church or the

Christian school is, but at least they will allow it, and they will not fight it, and they will support it in its basis.

I think you need to be careful with that in a Christian school. If you are entirely a, quote -unquote, missional school, that would certainly flavor the classroom in ways that you may not want.

You may be picking more battles than you wish, but certainly to be exclusionary in that way is not our goal.

Again, we want to be able to have students come who may not be exactly like us, and may have one parent who is a

Christian and one who does not, or both that are not, but still support who we are in a sense, and are allowing us to bring the gospel into the lives of these young people.

And Mike? Well, I think it's very important that—I do appreciate that our school is more open than some to schools that, like you said, will require both parents to be believers.

And I do understand some of where they're coming from on that. It's very important, though, that parents read the mission statement of the school and ask lots of questions.

And we have had families that we've said, you know, that we've talked to, you know, we're the

Christian School of Grace Baptist, and those still just say, well, I'm not Baptist. Had they read our children's catechism,

I think many of these families that make that quick decision would be able to look through the catechism question by question and find that, yes, there may be some differences that they have, but see that this is a

Christian school that teaches biblical Christianity. And so it is—we have had families that have had really no idea what they're getting into, and we've been very surprised when they have asked, is this what this school teaches?

And we've been very open about it. They just never bothered to really research. And some have had to—some have just turned away and have left.

But we— Would that be more in regard to, like, the unique teachings of Calvinism, for instance, or—?

No. No, not at all. These are more some just basic things, like Christ is the only way to heaven.

Really? Yeah. People wouldn't have known that before? No, some have had—like, you had mentioned that you had gone to a

Catholic school. Some have come from schools where it was pretty—it was religious in nature, and they did teach some

Bible, but it wasn't something that—where a worldview of biblical thinking reigned in all subject areas.

So their background experience was, hey, well, I went to a Catholic school, but we had Jewish kids there and Muslim kids there, and we all just got along, and we—you know, they weren't taught this biblical worldview.

Christ is the only way. And so some have been shocked, and some have left because of that, not because we were hiding anything, just because they really hadn't looked into it very well.

And I've said this on the show before, but for those of you who haven't heard it, I know evangelicals who have sent their children to Catholic parochial schools just because of the distance or because of the cost that might have been more compatible with their income or something.

But they think very often that there will be little difference between a

Catholic school and an evangelical school. All's I can tell you is from my personal experience, going all the way back to the late 1960s and the 1970s,

I was taught in my science class that—by secular teachers.

They called them lay teachers because they are part of the laity. But they taught that all of the more well -known stories in the

Old Testament that are favorites among children, like Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and all these stories, they're all myths, that we evolved from apes and so on.

I was taught this in Catholic school as a child, that long ago. So I'm assuming that there may be differences from school to school, from diocese indifferences in different locations, diocesan indifferences.

But perhaps you may have some very rare ultra -right traditionalist

Catholic school that might actually teach a literal six -day creation or in a creation at all.

But I wouldn't want people listening to think that there wouldn't be many major differences between a

Catholic school and an evangelical school, and let alone the gospel itself.

I mean, the gospel, if they are being faithful to the Council of Trent, is going to be an entirely different gospel than those of us in this room believe.

If you reach out to the different kinds of Christian schools, one of the most common things you're going to see is that they have a statement of purpose.

That's the most important thing for the parent to read. What's the purpose? Is it Christian worldview, biblical worldview?

Or is it a combination of the world and secular and all blended together? The Catholics tend to blend the two.

And that's what the issue becomes, because the gospel is kind of hidden. If you've got a true biblical worldview, the gospel is right out there in front.

You can't miss it. Well, we're going to our midway break right now. This is the longer than normal break that we have.

That's because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break because they air their own commercials and public service announcements during this break to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So please be patient with us as we take this elongated break.

Also use this time wisely to write down information provided by our advertisers, because the more you know about our advertisers and how to contact them, the more likely you will be able to successfully and more frequently patronize them.

And the more you do that, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, and we rely upon their advertising dollars.

So therefore, it will be more likely that we will remain on the air for a longer period of time. And besides that, please send in your questions to our guests,

Gareth Schuth and Mike Endress of Grace Baptist Christian School in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and also

Charlie Liebert of sixdaycreation .com. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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James White here, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Bodhi Balkam, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastors' Study every

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two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. My name is

Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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That's liyfc .org. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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And we have just a few important announcements to make before we return to our discussion.

First of all, our newest sponsor, Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, is having a conference that I intend to attend,

Saturday, October 6th, and Sunday, October 7th, featuring guest speaker Mike Abendroth, who's been a guest on this program many times.

He is the senior pastor at Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts, the author of Jesus Christ, the

Prince of Preachers, the Sovereignty and Supremacy of King Jesus, Sexual Fidelity, and Evangelical White Lies.

And he will be speaking on the theme, Why the Reformation Still Matters. As I said, that's from Saturday, October 6th through Sunday, October 7th, at Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

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You can also call them at 717 -652 -5229, 717 -652 -5229.

Then coming up, there is another conference where I will be manning an Iron Shepherds Iron Exhibitors booth,

God willing. That's November 9th and the 10th at another Grace Bible Fellowship Church congregation.

This one is in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. And this is the annual Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology, which is sponsored by the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. The speakers this year are David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Nguyen.

And the theme is The Glory of the Cross. For more details, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org.

Click on events, then scroll down to the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology. I hope to see you there.

Then coming up in January, from Thursday, January 16th,

I'm sorry, January 17th, to Saturday, January 19th, the

G3 Conference is returning to the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia.

I intend to be there also with an Iron Shepherds Iron Exhibitors booth. This will be my third time there.

I love this conference. It is absolutely mind -blowing. It is a very wonderful conference.

This January's theme is The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions. And they are, once again, featuring a very long and impressive list of speakers, including

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, John Piper, Stephen J.

Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bewe, who is my favorite preacher on the planet

Earth, pastor of Kobwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and chancellor of the African Christian University.

Tim Challies, my friend Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry, grace to you.

Josh Bice, the founder of the G3 Conference, and by the way, that stands for gospel, grace, and glory, in case you're wondering.

We have Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio on the roster.

We have Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late Dr.

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster. For more details, go to G3conference .com,

G3conference .com. If you have a church, parachurch, ministry, or business that you want to promote there,

I would strongly urge you to sponsor an exhibitor's booth, just as I will be manning there, because they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people at this year's, or should

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please, again, give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And, uh, Charlie Liebert, you wanted to address something that involves a chart in your book?

Actually, I'm going to let Gareth start first. All right, Gareth. Gareth, go ahead. Gareth Schuth. Thank you, Charlie. I will come back to you here.

Our pastor John Miller was bringing a passage to us as a faculty and board this summer before we started the school year.

And he took us to Colossians 1. And I think it's a very helpful place to start when we're thinking about Christian education, especially in the idea that Christian education is often mischaracterized.

And I'll get to that in a second. But here, from the scriptures, Colossians 1, starting in verse 15.

In here, we're starting with the word he, that is Christ. He is the image of the invisible

God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him, all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him.

And he is before all things. And in him, all things hold together.

That is just the centrality of what the Christian school is or should be about.

This is not a Christian school idea wherein we take a public school worldview and we add chapel and we add prayer and we throw in some

Bible verses. When we're speaking of Christian schools that are effective, we're talking about Christian schools wherein this centrality of Christ is present, whether we're in grammar or in math, science, social studies.

It doesn't matter where we are. Christ is preeminent and that just needs to be the central point of our

Christian education. Charlie has a great grid, a great chart in his book. If you have it with you, it's on page 11.

And Charlie, if you just kind of go over that briefly here, distinguishing between the difference of a humanistic worldview and a

Christian worldview. I mean, it's really the crux of why we believe in Christian education. Thanks, Gareth. Yeah, the answer is yes, in terms of the chart.

We'll start with the origin of the universe. It's order from nothing or chaos or evolution, atheistic evolution, or God created in six days.

It's two very different views and two very different views. And I would say from my book, which is about Darwinism called

Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead, the creation by six days is obviously the better scientific explanation for what we see on the world.

Mankind's origin. We're a chemical biological accident, says humanism. The Bible says, no, we're made in God's image, for intent, for purpose.

The origin of life, dead chemicals, or something called abiogenesis, which means dead chemicals become alive, or created kinds made by God.

Life's meaning, human experience, or residing in God, living in Christ. Historical flow.

That's really a good discussion in the subject of history. Unpredictable random events would be the humanist view.

The biblical view would be pretty simple. God's purpose is being worked out in history.

How to improve the world? By reason and intelligence, humanism would say. Christianity says by conversion and a life in Christ.

Happiness is Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or Christ as a new creation.

We are a new creation in Christ. Fulfillment is by the earth only, and death ends all, versus eternal life in Christ, and the aspect of heaven.

Moral basis, relativism, do what you want, pick and choose what you'd like to believe, what you'd like to do, or God's word as a guide for life.

Salvation comes either by none or human effort, in all the world religions except biblical Christianity.

Biblical Christianity says God's grace alone, by faith we are saved. And then finally, lifestyle.

If you're living as a humanist, you're going to love hedonism, pleasure, intelligence, living for today.

The lifestyle of a Christian would be in Christ as a living sacrifice. There's another table on page 62, which

I just want to hit for a couple seconds, and that is the contrast in textbooks' foundations. In history, the biblical view would be national pride in the nation that we have, based on foundational principles that were there in the

Constitution and in the Declaration of Independence, or politically correct liberalism. In social studies, it's heritage and human values, or it's basically relativism and hatred of the

USA. In math, it's arithmetic, algebra, and trig.

Or common core math, which is nonsense. One of the big ones here, because I teach business subjects, is this one.

In economics, it's either free market enterprise, which would be the functioning system of the biblical understanding, or socialism or communism, which is a system that always fails.

So that's an overview of the differences between the two worldviews. And it's important we understand that out of that springs everything the children are taught.

Yeah, and I think it's important, too, you know, Charlie, that as you read those humanist views, you're not setting up a straw man who's not sitting here next to us.

No, no, no, not at all. These are things that we could go down the list and ask someone who believes in things, do you believe in this?

And they would say, certainly I do. So, you know, we're not setting up a straw man to pick a part who's not sitting there.

I think that's very important to point out. Yes, that's a critical issue that, in fact, the humanist, is expressed best by the latest

Humanist Manifesto, which is Manifesto 3. And Humanist Manifesto 3 is relatively short. I'd suggest most

Christians read it, because you'll understand what the other side believes, and you'll see all the counter to what you believe.

Now, just out of curiosity, I don't know how widespread your knowledge is in regard to what government schools are doing all over the

United States. But how prevalent is it in the grammar and high school grades for, for instance, authoritative declarations as to the celebratory nature of homosexual activity?

In other words, we should not only, as citizens of any given nation, tolerate this, but we should applaud it and celebrate it.

We should view it as wonderful. You see this routinely in the secular media, even on regular secular news programs, where you will have,

I mean, long ago is the days of Walter Conkright, when he might have, just with a neutral facial expression, report on some kind of homosexual activity that's going on, without smiling with a big toothy grin and applauding what is going on.

But what do you know, and we'll start with you, Gareth, what do you know about this, how widespread that kind of thing is? Chris, I can't speak to that necessarily.

I do know that we have some wonderful Christian families that attend public school. And I just want to, again, reiterate, if we haven't already, we are not in any way demeaning their choice.

So let me just put that out there. But even from them, they would tell you that that kind of thing is present is prevalent.

And even going along with what Charlie was saying about the humanist worldview, that's completely in line with the worldview to celebrate these things.

So it's not uncommon. And I think it's purposeful. It's within line of the viewpoint that you will be imbibing in that setting.

Sound kind of strange, but it's a geographical issue. Geography.

If you went to Texas, you won't find much of that in the schools. If you went to New York or Los Angeles, you're going to find a lot of that in the schools.

So local schools determined to some extent where they are. But one of the most common problems

I see in talking with Christian parents is that, you know, we understand the humanist foundation in public education, but our school is different.

Because they think their school doesn't teach that because they don't see the textbooks and they don't go through the stuff their children are hearing every day.

So you'll hear that a lot from Christian parents. Well, our school is different. We're not really founded on humanist principles.

And that's a fallacy. The foundation is there regardless. So I would encourage

Christian parents, probe a little bit about what your children are being taught if you've got them in public school. Yeah, well, let's not just beat up on the public school system, because I've heard some alarming things about private evangelical

Christian schools. I know of a teacher who has been on the faculty of a conservative, private

Christian school. It had even reformed roots to it. I don't know how reformed theologically it is today.

But this woman is still on the faculty there. She's been there for decades. And she told me that they're using the history books from secular school publishers, which was alarming to me because well, she was alarmed herself because of the revisionist nature of these books.

That kind of a thing. What else do you know that is of great concern to you about other

Christian schools that might be just as counterproductive or on the border of being just as counterproductive as the government school?

As a Christian parent, one of the first things I'd ask is let me see the origin of the textbooks. What textbooks are you using?

Using Bob Jones or A. Becker or using one of the secular publishers? Because the foundations are going to be different in those books.

And that's the first thing your parents probably want to research is what are the textbooks like that you're using in your courses?

What's their origin? Who's the publisher? That's a critical issue. Now, in your opinion, what are the best publishers to look for?

Well, I'd look for A. Becker. I'd look for Bob Jones, even though I don't agree with all theology of Bob Jones.

I'd look for that because they're a good publisher. You think there isn't anything inherently anti -Calvinist in those?

No. Well, the answer is maybe. I don't want to be committee.

Alpha and Omega is another one. Okay, there's another publisher there. There are a whole list of Christian publishers, and I believe

I have it in my book. I'm not sure I can find it that quickly. But there's a list of Christian publishers in here that indicates what they are.

And I would say, look at the list. If you're getting something out of a secular publisher, it's going to be

Humanist and Foundation. That's just the nature of the books themselves.

Yes. Well, I need to follow up real quick by giving my hats off, if you will, to Steve Pettit, who is the current president of Bob Jones University.

I saw him and heard him preach at the Foundations Conference in New York City about two years ago,

I think it was. This is a conference founded by Sermon Audio. Everyone in that panel was openly theologically

Reformed. And Steve Pettit, although he didn't identify himself with that label, was clearly teaching

God's Word through the lenses, either consciously or unconsciously, through the lenses of a

Reformed Christian. He was clearly teaching the Reformed Ordos Salutas, Order of Salvation.

So I just wanted to throw that in there. I didn't want to insinuate that I was bashing Bob Jones University in this stage of the game in the 21st century.

But anything you would like to say, Gareth? Yeah, Chris, I think the other important element to this is that textbooks are a tool that are used by,

I don't want to call them technicians. Teachers are much more than technicians. But textbooks are a tool in the hands of a professional.

And that we went through the process of interviewing and hiring three new teachers this year at Grace. And my concern, yes, there's a concern about what kind of textbook they would be using.

But at the same time, you could have a great textbook put in front of children with a teacher who is not themselves sold on the

Christian worldview, even Reformed thinking in our Christian school. That to me is a greater concern.

You know, you have an interview, you have multiple interviews, and you still hope and pray that the life of this

Christian, the life of this teacher is exuding the gospel truths that we want to bring them day in and day out.

So, you know, I agree with Charlie. It's important to have good textbooks that aren't counterproductive.

But at the end of the day, we need to remember that we have teachers who are wielding them appropriately.

And a lot of times, and I have to be honest, I would look into some Bible curriculum. And so many places are developing their own, not because there is major flaws in some of the publishers, but because they know that their teachers will wield the

Word of God effectively. So they choose to do it themselves, entrusting the teachers with that task.

By the way, I was just curious, did the Christian school at Grace Baptist Church lose my application?

I just, I never heard anything. Just kidding.

Never got that one. Before we move on, we do have a listener question, but before we move on, do you have anything to say, brother?

Mike Endres? Yeah, well, I just think it's so important that Christian schools, you know, our church is, this is our church's

Christian school. And so Christian schools that are under a church, it is,

I think it's very important that the elders are involved, and that they know where their teachers are coming from, that they know their teachers have credible

Christian testimonies, that they know where their teachers' views are on creation and on biblical

Christian discipline. And that takes time.

I would probably, I, of course, this is the only school

I've ever worked for, so this is what I know, my school. But if you were at a school that was a parent -run school,

I would encourage those schools to be very, very, have a very solid statement of faith and a clear understanding of where their teachers come from.

Certainly, we can have teachers who are Presbyterians and Baptists and like -minded with differences, to be teachers in the same school.

But there are core foundations that must be very solid, and I'm sure that there are schools that have not been as careful in these areas and have regretted it, and it has been a detriment.

I'm very thankful for the thorough process our school has and for even the requirement that we hold to our confession, and we support it, and to our catechism that really drives us as a whole group and unifies us as a group.

And it makes, as you go from one teacher to another teacher, yeah, differences in personality, but the mission and the understanding is the same of our biblical

Christian education. We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, is it a negative against a

Christian teacher if she's accredited in the government school system? You know, let's be clear, there are some great things that we get from the secular world,

Chris. I mean, I don't know if you ever have to take any medication. I do at times, and a lot of that was developed by secular people with secular mindsets.

You have to be discerning. I think it would be unwise to throw someone's credentials out because they have a set of credentials that may indeed give them some tools, but with a biblical perspective.

I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. Again, much like the textbook is used in the hands of the teacher, so their tools, whether they learned them at a public or private

Christian institution, are going to be wielded by that, hopefully, Christian believer.

I don't think that's necessarily a detriment. Although, you know, if they were indoctrinated, in a sense, with certain philosophies, you definitely want to flesh that out as you're interviewing that individual.

Certainly. And for full disclosure, both Gareth and I have our certificates are from the

Pennsylvania Department of Education. I'm sorry, we've run out of time. We are going to our final break right now.

It's a much briefer break than the last one. And this will be your time, if you have questions, to send them in before we run out of time.

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Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. Welcome back, and this is the last segment of today's interview on Christian education with Gareth Schuth, headmaster of Grace Baptist Christian School in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Mike Endres, third grade teacher and coordinator of technology at Grace Baptist Christian School as well, and also

Charlie Liebert, the founder of sixdaycreation .com and the author of the book

My Christian Children's Education, What Should I Do? A Christian Educator's Analysis and Advice.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

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Before the break or actually during the break, the last break, Mike Andrus, you said that you wanted to speak about discipline, how it is conducted in a

Christian school or actually how it's conducted in the Christian school at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, as opposed to what is perhaps going on widespread in the government schools.

All right, Chris. I think when we're talking about Christian education, one of the things that should come to the forefront of parents who are looking into it is developing godly

Christian character in their children. And this is what we have the honor and great privilege.

It's intimidating sometimes because it's not easy to do but to develop

Christian character. And we are teaching boys how young men should behave and how they should treat young women.

And we are teaching students to be honest, to be kind.

And reasons that you will get in the public school are things like, well, or you're going to get in trouble or because it's the right thing to do.

We point the students to why it's the right thing to do and who says so. This is not us wielding our own authority.

This is authority given to us by God. We're teaching them to honor their parents as the fifth commandment teaches us to do.

And what it means to honor your mother and father, even when it's difficult.

If perhaps not everything they do is honorable, and yet we are to teach them to honor mother and father.

And so these are obviously the area that we've talked about with Christian worldview and academics.

That is a huge part of what Christian educators do. But this

Christian worldview goes to these areas of character and also student discipline.

And when we have opportunities to discipline the children, we're pointing them to their reason why.

Here's another reason. Whatever it would be. Maybe the student is constantly not doing their homework, something simple like that, which is a very common thing.

Obviously, the kinds of sins that happen in the public school happen in the

Christian school as well. And the kids have the same temptations. But we get to point them to the

Lord. These are opportunities when they sin and fall into these things. We have opportunity to talk to them.

And we get to point them. Here's another reason why you need a savior. And by that, we get to point them to Christ.

The answer. And we could do what other schools do is to just move on because these are small things.

I think that's the temptation in the public school. And maybe it just ends up having to be that way because of some of the much greater difficulties that they have with behavior in the public schools.

But go ahead, Gary. I was just going to say that as far as preparing kids for time and eternity, which is kind of our tagline at Grace, Mike is right that this area of discipline is a place where worldview takes hold.

It is born out of a worldview. And I don't mean to put it in such stark terms. But when you have a child at home, you can address their heart and you send them away and in a sense, abdicate to a system that doesn't espouse those deeply held views that you're going to have to do some detox at the end of the day.

All our new hires, all of our teachers, we don't talk to the kids about worldview, but they know that they are pressing home the gospel at every turn.

They are taking a chance to say, here is Christ and here he is not some figure in a literary work.

He's not some abstraction. Here is Christ here and now, you know, Ken Sandy, I believe said in his book about in Peacemakers, that every area of conflict is an area to honor the

Lord. And we see that with our kids. We don't have perfect kids that come to Grace. We know that.

And we start there and say, Lord, show us where we can apply the balm of the gospel or sometimes the law of God and show these children who

Christ truly is. Discipline is an area that any parent would tell you is a struggle.

And in our goal to partner with parents, we also have to address discipline from this godly perspective, from this

Christ centered, God honoring perspective. And it is our great joy to do that, knowing that they may not get it in a public school and maybe even at home at times.

So it is a great privilege, although it is a great challenge. Now, I think you should be clear with examples of what you mean by discipline.

I, as I said, went to Catholic school. And although, since I was a gifted artist as a kid, my creating artwork for the nuns was kind of equivalent to a prison inmate who had cases of cigarettes buying his safety.

The nuns basically left me alone because of my artistic creativity. And they would frequently call upon me to decorate the school and the church during holy days and so on with banners and all kinds of things, even just letters, stencils.

But anyway, I was witnessed though. I mean, I did have my hair pulled very hard at many occasions with certain nuns that didn't like me.

Most of the nuns loved me, but I had my head cracked against another kid's head. But I witnessed nuns actually having kids held up against the wall, kicking them in the shins.

This is in the early seventies, by the way, folks. And I've witnessed serious discipline problems.

They would actually be sent to the principal's office where they were, where they had their head shaved. But this was -

We don't do that in the seventies. What a, you know, with the long hair styles back there, that must have been the worst.

Yes. Yes, it was. And, but this, I am fairly certain, was done with the hearty approval of parents.

Because I think typically when parents sent their kids to Catholic school back then, they wanted that kind of thing because their kids, they knew their kids had problems.

You know, you know, the very, perhaps even violent. I mean, I'm not, I don't want to exaggerate the violence, but you know, they were mischievous kids.

But so what do you mean by discipline? Well, Chris, I would think a lot of our parents would take some of the views of, you know, shepherding a child's heart.

You know, discipline has different methods and means. But in the end, if it's a view that is strictly punishment without any kind of restoration, or if it's punishment without bringing forth the law and the gospel, it's not really discipline.

We're very clear about that. The discipline may look different for different students and what they need.

And it is again up to the teacher to know these students and to apply that. We certainly have rules.

We certainly have consequences. That's for sure. But they never come apart from the pressing of the heart. They don't.

Our teachers are instructed. They know it. Many of them are parents themselves, but they know that it never comes without the pressing of the heart, without a hug, without restoration, forgiveness being clearly seen and presented.

It must come in that form. And we see the fruit of this when we are pressing the heart, when we are challenging them to look to the

Lord. We see the fruit in a change of behavior most of the time. Not always.

And some kids' hearts are hard throughout. And that can be difficult.

But we see many great discipline opportunities, tough times at times, over difficult situations.

Something the kid did that was very mean to another one or lying, things like that.

Some of these more most difficult situations as we are talking to these kids, withholding privileges, you know, there are those, both of those things may go along together.

We don't have the nuns old school style. That is not us. We have nothing to do with that.

But don't the tears come, Mike? Not when there's a severe discipline, but when a teacher looks them in the eye and says, young person, this is what the

Lord thinks of this. And yet this is what the Lord has provided for your forgiveness.

That's where those conversations are had. And that's where the greatest, you know, effect is. That's where the tears come.

Not from the harsh punishment, but from the realization of the gospel press to their hearts. And when we're talking to Christian parents who understand this biblical discipline.

Wow. Some of the partnerships, the growth between teacher and parent, as far as this idea of and loco parentis is the position that we are put in as teachers in their stead.

Boy, that really strengthens. And they, I think many of them understand and are reaffirmed.

Yes, this is why my child is here. This is why I wouldn't even consider another option.

If as long as I have the means to continue doing this, this is what we will do. And Charlie, you have about 30 seconds.

Yeah. Okay. The one thing I want to say is one of my mentors said this one time, which I thought was very powerful. When you discipline a child, you start with the law, but you better end with grace.

Amen. Well, I know that the Grace Christian school at Grace Baptist Church or the

Christian school of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania can be found at their website, gracebaptistchristianschool .org.

gracebaptistchristianschool .org. And I know that you could find the book that we have been talking about today.

My Christian Children's Education, What Should I Do? A Christian Educator's Analysis and Advice. sixdaycreation .com

or Amazon. It's on both. I'm 99 cents cheaper. Okay. sixdaycreation .com.

And that's spelled S -I -S daycreation .com. I want to thank all of you for being my guest today. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially...

The listeners are getting a book today. Oh yeah, I forgot. The two listeners, I believe it was two. Two or three, yeah.

That sent in questions, you're getting a free copy of Charlie's book. But I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.