Ghosts and Aliens - part 2 | S7 E3

So what you're about to hear is part two of our aliens episode and it was very interesting. We had brother bill back. We had a brother Jake Romo up here instead of Parker. We replaced him because Jake is better than Parker.

That is Parker's exact words, actually. So we moved past the idea. We spent a few minutes referring to Spacemen that idea of aliens and we I won't say dismissed. But we definitely came to an agreement on our stance on that and we moved on to more of a demonic Activity on the earth and what some people would call aliens Here on earth that really is an alien in the sense that when most people think about it.

And it was a very good discussion and I learned some stuff and I think I think was really good. It's always good to have bill on and Jake on. Jake will be back on soon for another episode. But tune in guys, and I think you'll like what you hear with further without further ado.

Let's get to part two. Today I've got with me my man Bill Floyd and my buddy pal friend and children's director and safety coordinator Jake Romo. I Am pastor Josiah and today we're doing part two on aliens so what I want to do to get started before we get into what we mean by that word and all of our Theories and possibilities and what that looks like from a biblical worldview, which is really what the three of us care about.

I want to pick up where we did leave off last time and Last time we all came to conclusion that whatever we mean by aliens. We don't mean Intelligent life on Saturn or Mars or the moon or anything like that.

We all agree with that. All right. Now just real quick Jake. Do you believe there's intelligent life on other planets and if not, is it possible that there is given a biblical worldview?

Do I think that life originated in other planets? No, I do think there's a possibility that Stuff could be floating around our solar system, but not in origin.

Okay, and what about intelligent beings for example? We won't call them human life. Is there is it possible that not just plant material? But there's actual other intelligent life on Saturn or the more Mars or the moon or whatever?

I mean possible sure, but I don't think that's what's happening.

All right. I'm gonna come back to you in a minute because I have a question on what that would look like in relation to the atonement. But before I do Bill same questions to you when you say the word alien, are you referring to spacemen?

No, no, and is it possible given a biblical worldview that that type of thing exists? I'm kind of in the same boat. I don't think so and my main obstacle to that would be The silence of the Bible. I mean.

I mean, that's a pretty thick book and if it were Jake and since I'm more of the moderator kind of thing I'm not moderator. Sorry. Presidential debates. I've gotten confused with what those people are supposed to do.

Instigator. Yeah.

What would that mean for the atonement. So I think I know what you're gonna. Yeah, so I think. Any possibility I would give to that and I'm not gonna say that I know yeah at all. However for extra biblical reasons, it's it's worth considering.

However, I would. So I gather from your question that Intelligent life would equate to.

Knowledge of.

Yes.

Savable life and that we would wildly diverge. So I. That I don't think is so the whole question of like well if there was Spirit-filled beings and you know Alpha Centauri. Yeah, then did Jesus die for them, too?

I write the and I don't I think that's way beyond the scope of the question and I think we're all on board there.

So I fear that in three minutes. We answered the original question of what the questioner sent in about alien life. I think that's what they meant. And so just to clarify on that, we're all in agreement that whatever any of us might mean by alien life.

We are not referring to Intelligent life that has rebelled against the Sovereign Creator and is in need of a Savior. The Bible. I think pretty clearly prohibits that I Mean the scriptures talk about him saving humanity and that humanity is what rebelled against him and that he came to save Humanity.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man. The man Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all a testimony at the proper time.

He would have had to have become the kinsmen Redeemed. Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, the what what? Golgotha. What Calvary did was for humanity in the entire message of that book is God glorifying himself and Reconciling man back to a right step with him. I think it's the best one sentence description of the Bible and It would be the loudest It would be the loudest Missing piece of the Bible if I were to discover that.

Oh, no by that God meant he also died for Martians that somewhere also they weren't at Eden. Yeah. So, all right moving past that since they were at now the question is and brother Bill was getting to it last week On what brother Bill and possibly brother Jake mean by alien is they mean? demonic activity on The planet.

And Bill why don't you talk a little bit about that? And then you got to last week just to refresh people on what you think that might be looking like in 2024.

Well.

Most of our most people in our culture are Not churched. They don't go to church. They do not or if they do. There's the Apostasy that's going on. Yes, sir. They don't they don't know the truth. They reject the truth.

Any lie will do.

Mm-hmm. What's it say? You're tossed to and fro by everyone Doctrine because you have no foundation, right? So easily persuaded people is what you're getting at.

Looking for a Savior coming from the sky. That is not Jesus. Yeah, well said.

Jake you want to add to that or take a different direction? Yeah, I would I would.

Back up a little bit.

So.

If I was having a discussion like if someone brought this to me like It's just out of the blue. I would immediately like the word alien, right? It was.

Different.

Different context. Similar question right. If I say the word Crusades, yeah, what's the first image that pops on your mind. Horrible Middle Ages murder? No, no, but like like pop culture wise.

Is there something that pops in your head. If I say the word Crusades, I still think of the Middle Ages and okay.

So I asked if not, I think of Billy Graham. I asked a half dozen people this morning after service and every single one of them said Kingdom of Heaven the movie. Well, okay. And I asked the I asked about aliens to like what's the first word that comes to mind.

One person said Illegal immigrants coming over the border. Yeah, right. And and they have a particular job field where that makes sense right, and the point is you have certain words that. There's already so much bad.

People are thinking of Tom Cruise War of the Worlds Mel Gibson signs. Yeah, or a whole host of other Marvin the Martian.

I think and I think the word supernatural. I think we do the same thing with that. We do it with demons, right? Whether because of pop culture or poor education in church or whatever, right? So, yeah, I think even saying like It's demonic activity that could that could mean a wide swath of things for a number of different people.

So.

You know that that word automatically has connotations attached to it regardless of whether you like it or not, you know. So for example the whole the the whole.

Can.

Jesus be the savior of intelligent life from other planets. Right behind. That is the assumption that bit for because of movies and other things that you know. There's a counterpart to humanity out somewhere that came here and there's a one-for-one kind of equivalent.

Just from another place, you know, I'm saying right. So I think that and I reject that. Yeah me too 100

So.

You know in. And I'm not sure where you where you wanted to go with it, but I wanted your take. Maybe laid out better better words when we say things like and I'm referring to like how we here on planet Earth.

Interact with. So what it what. For example in your opinion, what is a demon? That you that you would say like the Bible taken as a whole.

What is it? Sure. So I do take the fallen angel view that they are. Fallen angels know whether or not the phrase. Maybe you've heard of this a third of the angels I haven't quite decided if I believe that's a literal 33 or not.

But it doesn't matter. It is a portion of the angels that rebelled against God along with Satan, for example and.

And.

Are roaming the earth there are a portion of? Them that are currently locked up in the abyss the pit and will be released at a later time. They are Misery loves company. They're doing the will of Satan and everything against God trying to thwart God's plan of salvation.

They know their time is short. They know their end is destruction. They know they will not win. Fact. They beg Jesus to not go ahead and throw them in the abyss like they thought he was going to in Matthew chapter 8.

So that is what I think a demon is. So so based on that, right? So. The angels that have not fallen the interactions that we see with humanity given revelation from Scripture. Angels can have physicality.

Yeah, they can hold weapons.

Drive.

Chariots eat food and You they wear clothes. They're not gonna talk. Yeah, presumably. Some being out there is making the clothes that the messenger showed up with. I mean We could presume right unless God just poofed it the Angels sword chariot clothes into existence.

That's a possibility.

But.

Do you see. Because the interactions that we have of demons with humanity right largely from the New Testament. I think it's 90 is from the New Testament.

And.

Given that view. Why can't demons also take on a physical manifestation? What we see angels do it we see we see the messengers of God when they're sent take on physical manifestation. So so we know they have Geographical locale in one capacity or another whatever that is.

We know that the angel that was hindered from coming to Daniel, right? There's something geographical going on there. They were hindered from physically coming.

Daniel's location. So what I get the point you're making what I would say that that is.

Nothing.

Possibility wise. Since I take that demons are fallen angels. Nothing possibility wise would keep them from taking the form of a man. For example okay, the reason why I Am skeptical of that is because I don't have an example of that in the scriptures.

Okay, every time I seem the scriptures they are Either referred to as an unclean spirit. We're assuming those are the same thing. It's the best I can tell they are there seems to be used interchangeably.

Because sometimes Matthew or Luke will say an unclean spirit and then the parallel account and Mark or John will say a demon so I'm assuming those are Same same phrase ology. I don't see them like angels who can just appear and not be inhabiting somebody just appear at the tomb or whatever it seems to be they either have to be inhabiting somebody or something or Or influencing in that way, that's that's how I see it, right?

Yeah, it pigs for the pigs for example. Well, it says Saul was how does it word it? Tormented by an unclean spirit, isn't that how it words it?

He was tormented by an unclean spirit and it might seem off-topic, but there's there's a reason why I'm bringing this up.

So.

The reason why I say that right. And so there there's a possibility, right? I'll leave it as a possibility. Yeah, sure.

Um.

Obviously Bill and I are I have a little bit different view of what demons are and personally I don't think it matters as Long as that has in my opinion to make sense of a lot of the weird stuff that goes on in this world.

We have to have that kind of consideration. Somewhere We see the angels of God interacting physically with mankind right in a very.

I would.

This is what I'm saying about the word supernatural we use. The word supernatural is like. You know here we are and then supernatural is somewhere else, right?

And then sometimes they interact. We covered this last week when we say the universe is a spiritual place. What we mean is that this is the stuff that's not gonna last forever. Yeah, but there is spiritual thing in this room, I mean.

And someone posted this on Facebook. I think this is a good way to think about it. It's not that I am a body and have a spirit. I think the more biblical way of thinking about it is I am as I am Josiah.

I am a an eternal spirit. I will eternally exist somewhere and I have a body for 75 years. I think that's a better way of looking at it.

Right, so yeah, and so in Given what we have in the New Testament that 90 it seems more like Demons are disembodied spirits. And there's a Recognition believe it or not even among non-believers that there seems to be a physics to things like angels.

That.

As goofy as it sounds it would not be goofy to a physicist who understands hyper dimensions of our current reality.

That.

One of the greatest discoveries of 20th century is that. As little as it has to do with us normal humans, you know sitting around a table and eating dinner is.

That.

This physicality that we experience as Four-dimensional space-time right is really ten dimensions as out there as that sounds if God Created the angelic host as I'm just making something up. But say six-dimensional creatures all of the goofy stuff that we see happen in Angels.

Interacting with humans doesn't see it. Isn't that weird. It can be described with math. Them coming through walls right. That they are solid sometimes and not solid they can appear and disappear. None of that is weird from a physics perspective.

I think it's Telling personally that we don't see those things from the mnemonic side. We can take the stance that the Demons because okay. So if they are fallen angels, then maybe in their fallen state they now are.

Like Adam when Adam fell there was probably a physical change to his body. Not just spiritual. Yes, that also maybe happened to all the time. Yeah, exactly. Maybe there's a physical change.

But.

Maybe there's now fit whatever way you take it, right? We need a space where I think We have to have this thing where the demonic has a physical influence in this world. Yeah, good.

Okay, so that lead up. Which I think was helpful in clarifying. When you said the demonic has to have a physical presence in this world to make sense of stuff. Yeah, that is the crux of what? The two of you mean when you use the word alien.

Well, I'll get I'll get to that. I don't think that you know. Things flying around are necessarily physical manifestations of them.

However.

I know what you mean by a bill.

It's close close enough. Yeah close. It's a b-plus and it's really close. So you talk about your flying around stuff and then would you when he's done with that? Would you talk about what you mean by it's close.

Tell me tell me flesh that out a little bit. They'll go. Well, they'll go first. Bill's more important. Yeah. It's more important to me. That's fair. I.

Think that they must be. In clothes in flesh. Okay.

I.

Think that the demonic the demons are. Different from fallen angels. Okay. I believe the fallen angels have bodies. They have physicality. I Don't think the demons are okay. Okay. They can only be active I.

Think when they're in this Plane all right. So so the demons are The ones that if we want to use the word possess indwell people and control or influence or make mute or Make death like in the Bible sometimes and the fallen angels separate from that don't inhabit Separate human beings, but they have their own Physical bodies, is that fair?

Yeah. Okay. Got it. Fallen angels demons. All right.

I'm clear on how you're reading that and I think this is important to and it might seem like a separate issue, but it's not. But. Because there's non-believers who are taking things like the older Christian traditions Go Enoch and Genesis 6 and pulling that into their worldview to also try to make sense of all this stuff.

So a certain reading of Genesis 6, right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, but.

The right.

Cuz you know, I'm outnumbered in this room. Even if I count the sound beep I'm still on number.

Oh, okay, but but I'm one non opinion and I'm worried on you and one on me. I'm willing to concede it doesn't matter however, I do think it needs to be addressed and and and here's why that if The if a non-believer is going to pull that in and try to say this thing.

You know with these things coming down and interacting with humankind have been happening for a long time. The Christians even have a tradition of it. Then I think it's meaningful for us to say Hold on because yes, that's in our tradition.

But that's has nothing to do with what you're saying, right? Because when that happens when that happens in if we do take Genesis 6 was this was the angelic host coming down and having illegitimate children with with human women if we do take that if you're gonna try to borrow that then we have to point out that They were the bad guys.

They were the fallen they were in disobedience to the Creator. It doesn't fit your framework. You know, I'm saying so I do think it's worth at least knowing enough about to whether you agree with it or not.

It's worth knowing enough about to be able to engage it intelligibly from an apologetics perspective.

I am gonna go off on a very quick tangent just in case anyone hearing this needs to hear a quick word about what he just said. Everyone listening to this if you are an unbeliever you. Perhaps unnecessarily.

I mean, excuse me unknowingly borrow from the Christian worldview. Even in English the phraseology used like he wouldn't lift a finger to help me or he would give you the shirt off his back or go the extra mile are all biblical phrases all of them.

The.

Though when you are in a culture that at one point was a Christian nation say like ours. You have people accidentally obeying The Bible in certain portions of life and they don't even know it because it was ingrained in the culture.

People people have no idea. They don't even recognize that. So with that being said when Jake says people are borrowing from that remember they were the bad guys. This kind of stuff happens all the time where people will say things like Murder rape and incest are wrong.

Not recognizing they're only saying that because they were raised in a society that at one point Loved the Bible. Where if you've been raised. On an island somewhere where there's still cannibalism right.

You would have no basis of saying that's wrong.

Then that's what people don't understand and and people have been doing this for forever.

Oh.

So this this point in particular since Genesis if you talk to any Greek or Roman Around the time of Jesus and you said where do because they had people people all over got possessed with demons, right?

So, where did those what are those? Where do they come from? Right? They would say the same thing the Norse would say the same thing the Hindus would say the same thing that when the gods when they feel like it come down here and interact with with Human women it creates things that when they die become unclean spirits.

They all had but but the difference is right the if you want to take just the Enoch is just a biblical commentary or polemic if Creates the off the opposite idea. This were not benevolent gods coming down creating demigods.

These were disobedient beings in rebellion against the Creator and These things that it created were evil. I'm totally fine with with Enoch being just a polemic right if that's the an answer against the views of the world.

It does provide some answers for stuff however, I Think that needs to be remembered that you know, if hey if you're gonna try to borrow this from from our worldview. You need to put it back in the original context by the way before Jake continues.

Enemies of the Christian faith often point out that the idea of God coming to earth and becoming a man like creature is Ancient even before Jesus. And I would answer yes. But no account of God becoming man to die for man and be killed by man in order that man could come live with him.

That doesn't happen. That's the message of the gospel. Anyway, go ahead Jake. You were talking about the demonic presence in the world.

Yeah.

Physicality, right so.

So.

The physicality so. What is happening with all this. Right. And I think there's two totally different things We need to talk about because there's a human element in all this and then there's the spiritual element.

So the kind of spiritual elements kind of the one we're kind of talking about right now because we as someone who grew up in a very traditional very Iconic and that iconic is not the right word. Stereotypical very stereotypical.

Southern Baptist Church. Very small Southern Baptist Church.

Where.

Big ideas are not really thrown out there. Right you the word sanctification is Has 400 meanings not a particular meaning. That's not very helpful. You throw the right you throw the word. Well everything sanctification everything sanctification, right?

Same thing for the word demon, right? Yeah. So any way you slice it whether fallen angels are demons or they're two separate things There are things that interact with and physically manifest with mankind.

And I think it viewed in the light of what? Because that what's unique about say compare it to the ghost discussion, right? It's easy to lop it all in double that's weird stuff. And how do we respond to it?

Well, they the simple answer is the gospel. However. It's different culturally or it's becoming different culturally because ghosts there's not like a message tied to ghosts unless you're Kind of a new age Hippie, you know trying to do a seance.

There's a message attached to this whole.

UFO alien phenomenon. So let me just speed this along. I'll go bill first and then Jake. And then I'll go last. When we see. It happens often especially now. More cameras and Unidentified flying object a Unmanned flying object, whatever new acronym we're going to use today.

Going faster than we thought we could go or maneuvering in ways that we didn't think previously possible. We being whatever country filmed it. Let's say United States or whatever or claims that it's beyond our technology.

Do you? Think a That is something that is created or at least Made to appear that does not come from this planet in other words Is not terrestrial is not from Mind or do you think? Vladimir Putin is getting a lot better at making planes.

That's that's you understand the context.

Yeah, I know where I fall on that, but I want to hear from you and as Ukraine is going so well. Yeah.

I would say that the that what we see that is are doing things that are physically impossible. They're evidently not.

So.

So do you see that as spiritual or do you see that as Kim Jong-un has just spent a lot of money on. I think it's. Maybe us. Okay. Okay, so you don't you don't immediately think that is demonic angelic.

It may be a combination of terrestrial and demonic, all right, and what would that look like.

That would look like an evil man influenced by Satan's minions. Now, I'm talking about the actual ship itself. Okay, the actual ship itself. So what would that combination look like?

Help me out here. In other words.

Humans built it but yes given extra capabilities. I want to have had without the spiritual aid.

Now I'm gonna throw this out and go ahead. That's a can correct me. Okay, so I'm wrong, but so there was some.

Stuff at Roswell. Well, let's back up more than that. Okay, so Some history in the early 1900s, there was a guy named T Townsend Brown Scientists. He in short and this is there's nothing. Anyone can't go there's books on his life and his experiments and people have reproduced his work.

He was all over Scientific American the I struggle to remember the scientific journals of the early 20th century but there was a lot of stuff published on there there was a kind of a Kind of a race to try to understand and everybody was all about physics because people were you know.

Just after this remember people were splitting the atom. So this is kind of where everyone's head was in in the realm of physics. Everyone's like, you know, what can we what can we what can we do right?

There were no rules, right? We certainly didn't have government regulation over a lot of technology technology building. This guy T Townsend Brown figured out that he could create Build things of a certain shape and if he applied a whole lot of electricity to it It would start to do weird things with gravity.

And he published he published his work. It was I don't remember where he kind of fell off the map, but there was a certain point where the US government's like hey Come come come over here and and do your so we'll give you money for expert but even that right there.

Weird stuff with gravity. Gravity weird as in we hadn't discovered it.

Not not not until that point at least not that I'm aware of in the published literature the Weird stuff with gravity. So not using Aerodynamic means that would be akin to an evolution of the Wright brothers discoveries understand.

Or using traditional propulsion methods well at the time rockets hadn't been really in the mainstream yet, but outside of those means just applying electricity. Gravity seems to have less effect on this thing that he built.

Okay, and so this was back in the 1910s moving into the 1920s. I have an article somewhere's from like 1921 in Scientific American where he's recounting a lot of the stuff that he did so way back then.

This stuff was starting to pop up. And even moving into World War two there was a this was like a sidebar thing. No one was really putting money into it but a number of several countries were pursuing that kind of application of physics.

The Nazis were to a degree Hitler didn't give it it give it hardly any money, but it was a thing that they tried to do.

So.

This is within the scope of published American scientific history that these things were being pursued and then they kind of just stopped talking about it. Didn't there's no cover-up or anything like that.

People just stopped talking about it probably because the government stuck him in a Warehouse somewhere and just like hey do all your experiments here, whatever you find we're gonna turn into something.

But even way back then there were things heading in directions that today were like well That's not possible because of my high school physics book. So There's absolutely a human element to what's going on here.

The problem is the problem is is it throwing everything under that banner. Is that.

There's.

Credible accounts going back into the 1800s at least Brother Bill found one from.

1600 1639.

So I mean we're mean credible. Credible not, you know. Found one from 1639. Stuff flying around.

Okay.

Jonathan Winthrop the Puritan head of Massachusetts Bay Colony Wrote about it in his journal.

So. Okay, so. That unless I misheard you, right. Unless I misheard you. You are seeing some of the UFO Capabilities beyond what we previously thought possible to be either a lost technology refound a lost technology refound or a in other words.

Something we previously didn't think was possible, but you're not necessitating that means is from another spiritual realm.

You're saying that can be a purely human and never I would say if we're talking about what's happening today. You have both and by and large I would say the vast majority of Legitimately weird stuff that people say see today.

Would be human in origin. Okay. Okay now that being said There's a whole other discussion about the the spiritual side of things. And I think maybe we don't even try to consider that because but if you stop and think about it, you're talking about fallen angels who were at least at least for part of the creation of.

Everything.

Saw how things kind of put together and probably understand how this universe works better than we do at least from a if we want To call it a physics perspective. They probably have a better understanding of that so if they wanted to come here and at least for their own purposes cobble something together I have no problem with that intellectually or or biblically it would certainly prop them up as gods if That was the route that they were presenting themselves to you know a king or something like that.

They wanted to give their bona fides. Well, I can do things that you can't so it's to talk about them being in their fallen State right they can no longer do certain things. Maybe If they are stuck here, well Maybe there's some workarounds, you know, I'm saying I think that's totally within the realm of with of possibility but it is.

It's hard to get around. You can't hand wave away all of the accounts that we have. So we have to figure out a way. Okay, how does that fit in and where I think?

One of the problems we and we do this with so many things Like for example Social justice is a biblical concept that phrase in the past several years At least in the United States has come to mean things that sometimes are anti biblical.

That's hard to deal with when those words are biblical. Justice is a biblical. So we've got it. So I think one of the problems that Some Christians have is a balanced view so Hebrews 13 to says be careful to entertain strangers as some have welcomed angels unaware.

So there we have right there a Scriptural teaching that hospitality is important to love your brothers and sisters hospitality support the treats dangerous, right? And by the way every now and then it may not be a human but a human.

Someone who's taking a human form who you're actually entertaining and they're a messenger from God for whatever reason he sees fit. They're they're not they're not acting outside of God. This is a letter to Christians.

Hebrews 13 to Jewish Christians. They were sent from God.

So I think one was it. Thomas up we're talking about this this morning. Like when an angel appears they fall down on their face. Like sometimes and sometimes you can't tell the difference. Yeah, exactly exactly.

I.

Think the other side of that is some Christians are too quickly to hand wave and dismiss and I think that's because We have some of our Christian friends who see demonic activity under every rock.

The demon of alcohol.

Their own sin. Yeah is Do is is due to demonic activity if they drop their keys in between their car? See in there, I mean I've seen this way demonic influence and Satan trying to work against them because if they had driven at the right time They would have witnessed to the homeless guy.

In other words, there is no realm. And maybe those those I will almost say of us but those of us who are more skeptical to see demonic I'll keep using the word activity for now in the world is because.

Sometimes those on the other side see the battle of spiritual good and spiritual evil as a question of who's going to win. In other words, there's sometimes there's too much of a God's trying to outwit Satan.

Mm-hmm, whereas we from a biblical worldview have read the end of that book. God's not trying to outwit Satan if anything the other one is doing that in futility.

In futility Satan's trying to outwit Yahweh. And spoiler for those who have not read the end of the book we win.

Hey God God wins. No, but in his heart, he knows that one of the most powerful scriptures to me is in first Peter when it says I'm sorry Revelation 12 12 when it says he is thrown down with great fury for he knows His time is short not that he thinks he knows his time is short.