Gospel Showdown on the Streets of Provo

Apologia Utah

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Like I've read GLM with Bradley Campbell what

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I think it's like the red. Oh the gospel for Mormons. I thought you said God loves Mormons No, have you heard of them on YouTube?

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No I've seen a lot of YouTube videos Okay, I said like maybe eight to the one that I've seen like accurate about the church

00:20

So it's like what he means it what's inaccurate? Well, just like a lot of the claims that just I see on YouTube. We just like not like like what?

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There's like a million I could get into I mean Like I don't have specific ones. Do you think like on exaltation?

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I mean sure like there's a lot of straw man arguments have to do with exaltation things like other doctrines and things

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We're like, you know, there's a lot of truth Obviously, you know, this is coming from somewhere most the time a lot of the claims about the church But most of them are either these are straw man arguments

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You take something and you kind of make something out of it's not Or it's something that's not really doctrine that like it's just kind of in the culture

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Mainstream a lot of things like that. So like any idea for example, you know And it's something you'll definitely agree with and probably something to say if I don't bring it up first, right you say well, you know

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You are in a workspace religion Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'd completely reject it. Okay.

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How do you get to heaven then? How do you become exalt exaltation only through the grace? It's Christ. That's literally the only way not obedience to the gospel ordinances in principle.

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So it's really important It's like for example, right say I'm you know God's and this is where you know

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I might be a little bit of divergence here because we view the plan of salvation in a way that mainstream Christians don't I'd say well

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God's purpose is for me to become like his son Jesus Christ, right? That's what he wants for all believers to act like Jesus Christ or we did someone on the mount

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We can read exactly how he wants us to do that You know I think the Book of Mormon offers a lot of insight a lot of commentary to how we can do that, right?

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And so ultimately if you think about that context, you know, say say I you know Say my my parents give me piano lessons or something, right and they pay for all these lessons

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They do everything and they say hey, you know as a result of these lessons like I want you to become piano master Sure, yeah,

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Brad Wilcox, right that's what you're using the analogy of the piano player Yeah Talk about that right like me Practicing has absolutely nothing to do with like the actual gift that it is to receive those piano lessons for my parents right in this

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Context there's nothing to do with it It is ultimately to become who my parents want me to be

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There was this gift that they give me to say here here's everything I'm going to do whatever I can to help you out All you have to do is just try

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Right, and that's what God says and I you know, if that's like workspace or whatever like, you know semantics all day

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I don't think that has anything to do that works That's completely to do with the grace of Jesus Christ because like there's nothing I can do on my own without Jesus Christ It doesn't matter.

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I could keep every you know, I could read like the whole like standard works of the church or whatever You don't find every little commandment, you know live a whole freaking law of Moses if I want it'll make a difference, right?

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It will not make it can't be perfect. You cannot be perfect. God's standard is perfection I can't be perfect only through the grace of Jesus Christ.

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Can I accept that right? And so that's you know, that's what I would say and you say well, okay. Well, what does that require? Follow Jesus Christ because that's what he asks us to take up my cross and follow him.

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You know, we'll disagree though. That's fine That's just the way I see it That's what Jesus Christ wants from us and like, you know

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I don't really view like God's not just gonna like drag me He's not like, you know Hoping to kind of pull me out of this like little pond to put me in like a big whatever and you know

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Just kind of like plug me into heaven, right? I think he wants us to become to change right not just to like I don't really

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I don't really understand what like kind of the traditional evangelical perspective is only what does God want for me other than Just like, you know, it's kind of like to follow him whatever give him the glory worship him, right?

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Those things are all great, right? But like I don't know for you. No, I just don't understand the purpose of my creation. Okay, so This would be my question

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So it wouldn't be enough for you to worship God for all eternity What makes it worth it for you is to become a dog one day.

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No, that's not what it is And that's something there's another straw man, right? Where there is no glory that none of the glory of exaltation are you read any of the teachings of prophets you get any of the

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Scriptures none of this glory of exaltation Anything to do with like, oh, I'm so glorious and I'm this being and you know

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It's not like we think of the way that God is right where he's you know It's all omnipotent creator all these things like we don't know exactly what exaltation looks like The doctrine of the church is that we will live eternal life, which is kind of the life

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God lives full of joy, right? It says in Romans, right? We are heirs joiners with Christ We inherit all the

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Father has that doesn't mean that you know I get to sit there and kind of make my own planet and just kind of goof around and whatever I want all day

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Right, it gives me all the glory because that's not how we view Right. We view him as as the creator of all things, but truly in like a benevolent

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But he didn't create his father, right? Well, he didn't create his father Well, you said he created all things did he create his father

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Well, I don't necessarily believe that God like has a father. I'm believe God of the father and a father. Oh, you deny that Well, I do.

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Yeah. Oh, wow I would say a very very large percent of members of our church Because it's just not something it's something that's plucked kind of half out of context

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Down the most quoted sermon during any general conference or there's truth in there Discourse.

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Oh, there's totally truth as man is God once was as God is man may become Do you disagree with him?

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I know that he it's the couplet Summarizing the King Follett discourse. Do you disagree with one of your prophets?

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And the man now is right we look at the King Follett sermon you can read in context I've read the whole thing multiple times, right?

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So if you read it genuinely in context and you try it didn't try an ICG kind of this Mormon straw man into it right then as God is

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Yeah, man once was for sure man is God was Jesus Christ. Not as man once was What do you mean was Jesus Christ not as man once was he not fully man?

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Well before that he was fully man, right? I only got fully man hundred percent. Did he create Lucifer? Is he the spirit brother of Lucifer?

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What like in one context? Are you talking to Jesus Christ? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Jesus Christ, right? There's a scripture in print. He's the creator of all things both in heaven and earth, right?

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Well, that's Colossians 116 not Corinthians. Okay, perfect Thank you. Sorry. Yeah, right heaven and on earth visible and invisible.

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He created God the father No, it's got the father in heaven God the father It's gone. The father is

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God. We're talking about all created being so it's a different So there's some sort of differentiation between God and created things.

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Okay, I don't really believe I mean if you read if you really Abraham Right, I don't believe any much of created beings in the same way, right?

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If I you know, we use this all the time Like, you know, I'm sure you've talked to like atheists and things when you're trying to get like apologetics, right? You say well, you see a sandcastle in the beach.

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What's going on? Good So, you know, you see a sandcastle in the beach, right? You look at it.

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Go see it you go Okay, some guy made that sandcastle, right? No, it doesn't mess like in my view

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Creator like didn't go in there and like create every individual grain of sand I'm gonna create a sink down for the beach No, right and says members of the church we reject kind of the idea of crush you actually heal up Right now

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I've created all things out of nothing Yeah That's something that is in my view and there's not something you know You can say like if you read into the

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Bible you try to get that other doctrine out of the Bible That's something you can read into it all day But when we read about creation There is no differentiation in the

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Bible between For us UX and healer which is this kind of creedal idea and just the doctrine of creation doesn't say specifically

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Okay, God created all things out of nothing right in the beginning God. Yeah created. Yeah. Yeah Yes, what does it mean to create

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I created a sandcastle last week doesn't mean I made the sand no No, that's organized. That's not create. Okay. Are we talking English words here then in the translation?

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Well brah would be the Hebrew word which means create in that's Hiser's work.

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Oh, absolutely. Are you familiar with Michael Heiser actually saying that he does not believe anything that Mormons believe about God Yeah, that's fine.

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So why are you quoting a biblical Trinitarian scholar because he would disagree with you But he would disagree with what you're saying.

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He believes in creation X So what are you cause that word because that word isn't it doesn't there's nothing in that Barack Hurray means he created it from nothing even

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Jews believe that okay You are actually reading the interpretation of Joseph Smith into the

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Old Testament, why should I believe Joseph Smith's the prophet? Why is he a prophet? Well, you can look by his fruits, right? You read the book of Mormon.

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I've read not the whole thing, but I've read most of it I say 97 % of it. I've listened to the whole Book of Mormon. Okay, but not read it.

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So that's fine Right. So here's how I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God, right? I can take a look at the Book of Mormon There's a there's a teaching in the

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Book of Mormon. It's an out. It's in a circle. All right Yeah Yeah, yeah We talked about three things that you can use to identify faith right to identify what something is good

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And he says when you experiment upon my words You can look at the fruit of that and you can see that it enlarges your soul and enlightens your understanding

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It begins to be delicious on you, right those three things, right? I look at the teachings of the Book of Mormon and they enlarge my soul

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They help me become more like the Savior it enlightens my understanding it teaches doctrines that I think are really is I think

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I think The alternative doctrines taught traditional Christian circles often are very very like I think they're silly frankly

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Sometimes I think they paint a picture of God who's not the God that I know and love yeah different God, right? But a different God, right?

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Sure. I don't worship the Jesus Christ of the Nicene. I don't like Or the Jesus Christ of the

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New Testament, for example, okay, not just the Nicene Creed. Okay, that's fine Whatever you can you can make that argument and that's I think it's a little bit silly

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But like I believe I don't believe in like the triune being thingy, right?

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I believe in a God that's comprehensible and noble You believe in a created God John John 17 3 says this is life eternal to know

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God the father Yes, amen. I don't think you can know an incomprehensible this weird incorporeal.

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You know, the Westminster Confession of body parts or passions I don't think you can know that God. I don't think eternal life can be found in a

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God like that Okay, because it's incomprehensible to corporate. I have no way of forming a relationship with it being like well I know him by what he's revealed

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But the question again, so you believe that the Book of Mormon is true because of what Alma says Why should I believe the

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Book of Mormon to be true because it will enlarge your soul and lighten your understanding and it will Become delicious to you as you apply its teachings. Gotcha.

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So we have a prophet then Joseph Smith who's giving us a revelation Let's say he's translating golden plates, right?

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I'll give you that. I'll grant it. There's golden plates. He translates them The question again is why should I believe what he's translating?

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It's true I'm not gonna believe it because I actually so there's multiple tests of a prophet in Scripture There's Deuteronomy 13 1 through 6 right says if a prophet arises a dreamer of dreams produces miracles signs and wonders

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So even if things happen if it looks legit, but he leads you after other gods God You have not known do not believe in them Deuteronomy 18 1 false prophecy false prophet

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Don't believe in them by their fruits. I get that from Christ, right? 2nd Corinthians 11 tells us it's a warning from Paul that there's people who will come and preach a different Jesus a different gospel in A different spirit and I would say that is

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I would say that's the Nicene creation. Just listen. I'm not So I'm not

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Just listen, but what you're saying though is I'm talking about Scripture here Just listen, so Paul warns that there's people who preach a different Jesus a different gospel in a different spirit

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And then he also goes on to say that there's people who will masquerade as angels of light

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Workers of righteousness. It looks like they're doing great things. It looks like their fruit tastes great But their ends are the ends of death because they're doing it under a different Jesus a different gospel and a different spirit

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So what I would say about Joseph Smith, according to previous revelation number one, he leaves you after another

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God God you have not known you already told me that you also think I worship a different God.

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Thank you for that I would say according to the Old Testament Isaiah 43 10 you've probably heard this before me.

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There is no God form neither shall there be after me Isaiah 44 6 I'm the first I'm the last beside me. There is no God Deuteronomy 6 4 here.

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Oh Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one, right? John chapter 1 in the beginning was the word the word was with God the word was

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God all things were created through him There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through him So what we find in John 1 even in the

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Greek is in RK in Halagas and the word aim is translated into was and what is being spoken here from the

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Apostle John the one who walked with Jesus Not Joseph Smith. He is stating when the word in is being used that without origin to reference space or time

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He was already there before anything was created and then when he talks about things that are created It's a gunetto which means came into being from not having being you talked about something earlier by saying that no

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It's like sand John chapter 1 says no It says things came in to being and that Jesus was there before they ever came into being and I'm quoting to you the

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Apostle John, okay, and I would say according to the Apostle John The Jesus Christ of Joseph Smith is false.

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Therefore. I rejected the Book of Mormon. Okay. Yeah, I'm entitled to that But that's actually scripture.

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Okay. Okay, so Scripture right? I quoted it. Well, okay, I get that right? Yeah, and the scriptures and I think this is a really silly point

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Cuz I run this one a lot, right? I served a mission You know, I've had many conversations with evangelicals with Catholics with you know, various types of Protestants of different Christians, right even

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Muslims, right? And yes, you say well, I'm just telling you what the scripture says You are using scripture in a way that implies that there is implication to it, right that's fine

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I'm saying well this means this right and do you agree that two people in good faith, right? Ignore, you know take take the

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Church of Jesus Christ a lot of saints out of this take a perfect hearing the Catholic for example Can they both are you a Catholic Christian?

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Oh, I'm Baptist one thing Are you like a Catholic Christian type of if a Catholic believes that there's external obedience that they must adhere to like the merits of salvation external from themselves

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So just like they take like, you know to do whatever right can they have a conversation about a specific scripture and in good faith

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Disagree about the interpretation of that scripture and still both be Christian, right? Not if they disagree on John chapter 1 and believe that I'm just I'm just internal being okay

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So if they disagree about some of the nuances, yeah, there's things called audiofra Okay, which is they agree some of the nuances that does that both doesn't make one of them not

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Christian No, not if it's audiofra audiofra is non essentials to the gospel if they differ on audiofra

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Then one is definitely not a Christian because if you believe in a different Jesus a different gospel and a different spirit That's fine

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Then you're no longer my point is that my point is that it is possible for two people in good faith To read the same scripture and have something come out of it a little bit on essentials.

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Yes, right Well, it's on essentials as well. I can two people read the same thing and come away with different ideas

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Maybe one's wrong. Maybe one's right. I don't care, right? Read the same thing and come away with different ideas.

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Yes, absolutely. Okay, one's wrong was right doesn't matter, right? Yes, okay So you put all these scriptures at me, right?

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Uh -huh, and I'm gonna put a bunch of scriptures at you and ultimately you read those scriptures differently than I do and I read This, you know, why is that though?

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That's the question. Why is that? Yeah. Why how are you making that interpretation? I'm gonna make that interpretation Yeah, well something that's really nice is that I don't believe that God dropped 66 books on the rest of us

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I'm never gonna say what again? So it's really nice that I don't feel really the need to go and dig into like the you know

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I love to actually look like looking like the Greek and some of the things right? Yeah, good. Good. Good good, but And I'm no scholar

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I couldn't start pulling a bunch of Greek stuff I you know, you probably know a lot more about the Bible than me. That's fine, right? Right, you probably do this you probably studied a lot more than I do.

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There's so much. I don't know bro I have to keep all this right? There's so much about yeah, you know, whatever I mean, I believe that God continues to speak that he continues to reveal, right?

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That's one of the articles of faith. I can grant you that but how do you know it's from God? That's the question. Well, I know it's from God because I know where it comes from Right. I know what it comes from a prophet of God It's of God unless it contradicts previous revelation when it comes from a prophet of God.

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It's of God That unless it contradicts previous revelation. That's what God says. Okay, that's fine But when it comes from a prophet of God that prophet is speaking for God, right?

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And he contradicts himself the Holy Spirit contradicts himself. Well, I don't like the Holy Spirit doesn't like contradict himself I don't know why like so if it comes from God, it should be consistent with previous revelations.

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That's fine Joseph Smith is inconsistent in previous. So coming back to my point, right? So what Joseph Smith says is inconsistent with the way you read this?

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No, here's the thing. I asked you Why did you interpret it that way what you're doing is you're reading the

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Bible through the lens of Joseph Smith I read it through the lens of the Holy Spirit and through his prophets and through service You're reading it through the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, and I'm telling you that those glasses are leading to eisegesis incorrect a different gospel

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That's what I was getting at is that I don't have any issue with eisegesis at all because I don't believe that I need to Take these like there's a specific set of 66 books

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I have to look at everything in the context that because I think God still speaks and so I can look to what he says Through his servants and then

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I can compare that to previous revelation. It helps us understand what that teaches So you can be led astray? You have no way in order to know it's true.

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Well, I do because it comes from a prophet of God It always for me I'm on the foundation of the Book of Mormon I know the

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Book of Mormon is the Word of God. I have such a sure witness to that It led me to Jesus Christ, right? You say well, there's your own Jesus, whatever.

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It led me to Jesus Christ I know the voice of God. I know what you know, what's what it feels like when he's speaking to me

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I know how to listen to his voice. I know it and when I you're basing that on your feelings

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No, it's not at all my feelings because you said you know your feelings. So was a prophet speaking

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Well, I know what I'm feeling sure because I know what it feels like when the Spirit of God speaks to me I know it because he speaks to me in many different ways.

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Can you trust your feelings though? No, but I can trust the Spirit because I know the difference because I've learned the difference over a lot of time

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But it's your experience of knowing that it's the Spirit through your feelings. Is it not sure but when that's when those promptings are confirmed

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So you're basing it off of experience So no, it does not sound like a testimony to me because it says in Jeremiah 17 line

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No, I'm listening to my heart. I'm listening to the Spirit of God. No, I'm listening to the Spirit of God. When the Spirit of God gives me what

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I pursue, I think this could be a prompting and I act on it. How do you know it? What? But how do you know it? I act. That's how I know. Okay, so you act on it and it's not the way you feel at all.

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So you don't base it on any experience. No, because it takes experimentation, right? So if I'm trying to say, okay, you know, what does this feel like?

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Well, if all of a sudden I think well this could be it and then I act on that and all of a sudden this prompting leads to some crazy miracle where I get to work some miracle in the life of someone else because God gave me that blessing then

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I know that that came from God, right? If God leads you to say there's a man walking down the street and you feel like God leads you to that person and you say well this person needs to be saved and you walk up to him and all of a sudden he's like, you know what?

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I've been thinking about leaving the Mormon church for a million years and I need the real Jesus, right? Well, you'd probably say well that was probably a prompting from God to go help save this man, right?

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Yeah. I would say the same thing, right? Is that when I have a prompting like that and I go and I'm able to work some miracle in the life of someone else that comes from the

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Spirit Yeah. And so as a result of doing that over and over and over again over the course of years, right? It takes a lot of practice. It takes a lot of effort, right?

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I think the argument though coming from the Old Testament is that it's anticipated, right? Deuteronomy 13, if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you, produces miracles, signs and wonders, but leads you after other gods, you can't believe them

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So I don't disagree. I think that if someone believes in a false Christ and a false spirit So that's where it boils down to Listen, miracles could still occur but it doesn't mean it's actually

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God So if it contradicts previous revelation, I must reject it Your interpretation of that No Right He has spoken to us by his self

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That one's about faith, 11 .1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's actually a good one too 11 .1 is like that, right?

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Yeah So in terms of Jesus, right? And this is my biggest burden for you I hear you,

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I get where you're coming from My biggest burden is this, right? So the reason why I come out here is because I care about you, number one

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And I care about you because if you're presented with a different gospel, whether or not you agree with me,

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I can't change your mind, right? I don't believe I could I don't think my wits, my intellect, my persuasiveness can save you, okay?

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It says in John chapter 6, it says No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him

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And then it says In all that the Father has given to me, I won't lose one of them but I will raise them up on the last day

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John 17, you quoted it earlier Jesus Christ says that he doesn't lose one of his sheep

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He guards them all That they're held secure and protected from the evil one solely through him And their faith in him, in knowing who he is

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Beautiful section of scripture John chapter 17 is my favorite scripture in the Bible Oh, it's so good, bro It's so powerful

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It's so powerful I love it because it's like Jesus' prayer for me Because you're reading it and he's like praying for the disciples, praying for the disciples

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And he goes, but I'm not only praying this for the disciples, but I pray for this for all who believe in me That then maybe one

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Father is thou art in me and I in thee, right? Beautiful So hold on to the fact that in that, in John 17,

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Jesus says he can't lose any of his sheep That he guards them That it's not up to them for their salvation to be held secure

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Think about that a little bit Well, Jesus said that my sheep, they know my voice, right? They listen and they come

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Yes And so that's where I would say, well, you know, Jesus Christ knows his sheep, they know his voice Why does

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Christ use the analogy of sheep? I love that he uses sheep, right? Not any other farm animal Because one, there's probably a million things to that, right?

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We can talk about what the lamb symbolizes and all these things, right? But a sheep is an animal that runs away, right? It runs away from the flock

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And that's why the shepherd has to go get him and return the one, right? Yes, yes And so I think that, you know, whether or not I'm one of Jesus Christ's sheep

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You know, I can go run off and he's going to come back and get me But ultimately, if that sheep doesn't come back, then that sheep doesn't come back

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But that's not what God's word says He says all that the Father has given to me All in his fold, all in his fold, yes He says all that he has, no, he says, whoever the

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Father gives to me, comes to me And he says, I lose not one of them I lose not one of them, but raise them up on the last day

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My eternal security of my salvation His sheep Yes And his sheep follow him and they hear his voice No, no None of them go off That's John 10, that's

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John 10 Jesus has my sheep, they know me and they hear my voice I'm interpreting John 10 with John 6 By saying that not one of his actual sheep that run off will ever be gone forever

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He is the one who raises them on the last day He says he won't lose one of them John chapter 6, read it

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When he's talking to them, read it, it's so good So you believe in, are you Calvinist? I am a

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Calvinist, yes I have to catch the bus, you know Bro, just let me leave you alone I'll let you give one more thing

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Thank you, thank you I don't have time to get into Calvinism But, you know, like, ultimately, I think that the fact And here's where I see a really big issue

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Is the fact that here we are talking about the differences And, you know, this is where I think we're at the big differences We say, well, you know, this contradicts what we know about God, right?

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That's kind of your big argument, right? So, of course, well, it can't be of God because it leads them to a different God Even if these fruits are good, right?

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And ultimately, I don't see Well, bad fruit, bad fruit is bad doctrine Bad fruit is a different Jesus Bad fruit is a different gospel

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Okay, I'll paraphrase your thought But I don't see in any way how the

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Jesus Christ How the God the Father, how the Holy Spirit Of the Old Testament, of the New Testament At all, right?

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I'll even take aside the Book of Mormon for a second, right? Put all our religion aside Can, you know, the only

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God who delights in choosing people to go to hell, right? The only God who delights in throwing babies in the fire in the

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Old Testament is Molech Right? And so, a God whose glory is caused by deliberately

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You know, he picks, he says, this is my shoe, this guy's not You know, left hand, right hand Romans chapter 9 Yeah, right Jacob I loved,

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Esau I hated Right Noah's Ark Jesus teaches in the New Testament What Jesus teaches in the New Testament Is those on his right hand are those who fed me when

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I was You know, when I was hungry and clothed me when I was naked And, you know, brought me in when I was, all these things, right? Those are his sheep, right?

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So I definitely think we can choose to be at the right hand of God Right? Because he's given us the gift of grace He says, all you gotta do is take it

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If I'm stranded in the woods, I have no way of getting back It's the middle of the night, there's some bear chasing me, right? And someone comes and drives along And gets in the car

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It is not diminishing at all that person's gift If all I have to do is get in the car

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Right? You are dead in your trespasses and sins in which you once walked Yes, and God can save me No one can come to me unless the

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Father who sent me draws him And all that the Father has given to me It's the will of the Father that I lose not one

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John chapter 6 Read it over and over and over again I'm quoting to you what it says Yeah, and again,

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I disagree with the interpretation of it That's fine I'm just telling you what it says And many Christians who you would say were saved will disagree with you on that as well Am I wrong? That's possible, yeah

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Armenians But here's the thing An Armenian wouldn't disagree with me on the nature of God That's fine The trinity and the gospel

23:19

That's fine Right? I'm not talking about, I'm not saying, oh, Armenians saved, Calvinians saved I'm just saying, there are people who disagree with that specific interpretation

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Of the way that God calls his sheep Who you would argue are saved in the kingdom of God Now when I do it in a different way than the

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Armenian You say, oh, well, you're going to go Different God, different gospel, different spirit No, again, I do reject the traditional

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Christian I don't think that that is being that I don't think that, frankly, I don't think the Calvinist God Is being worthy of worship, frankly

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The God that you think is worthy of your worship Is the one that will make you a God So that you will be worshipped one day No, the one that will bring me up Will raise me to be like he is

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So I can give him the glory forever Does God receive worship? Yes, absolutely Will you receive worship? I don't know,

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I have no idea I literally have no idea If you read the thing As man is, God once was As God is, man may become

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Does that mean I get worshipped? As God is, man may become It does, and does that mean Why are you shying away from it, man?

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I'm not shying away from that doctrine I'm telling you what the doctrine of the church is And you can strawman all you want That's not a strawman Does God receive worship?

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Yes Okay, so as God is, man may become As God is, what does that mean? That could mean a million things

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God Does that mean I am the Father? Does that mean I am Does it mean I am the Father In the Trinity with Jesus Christ? No Of course not, right?

24:29

You lost me there What do you mean by that? I mean, like, so if Say that couple, it's true For a second, hypothetically, right? So all of a sudden, I'm going to become like God Does that mean that all of a sudden

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I'm going to have a son who is Jesus Christ And everything's going to repeat itself all over again? I don't know Exactly my point

24:41

That is exactly my point I don't have those answers Those answers are not revealed to us Well, I'm not out there Yes, that's what I'm saying I don't know either, right?

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These answers are not revealed Do I need to know? No I know that God wants to raise me So was Joseph Smith wrong? Have you read

24:52

Mere Christianity by C .S. Lewis? Yes He actually touches on this so beautifully, right? I love C .S.

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Lewis The way he teaches the exact same idea that I believe Okay I love the way he talks about it So you don't think that Joseph Smith In the

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King Follett Discourse At the beginning of the King Follett Discourse When he says He says, I know you worship the way God the Father worships No, no, listen, listen

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He says, I'm about to give you a revelation That no man has ever given to you

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The knowledge of God so far Has been to that of the beasts He says this right at the beginning He says, prepare yourselves

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I'm about to give you the best revelation you've ever heard Okay Even Jesus Christ, God in the flesh

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Who came to make the Father known John 1 18 Even what he did wasn't enough Now, I'm going to give you a revelation

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He says, even what Jesus did isn't enough He says that He says the knowledge He says, even what Jesus did isn't enough Amen That's what he's saying

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The knowledge of God that we have Is that of the beasts The knowledge of God that I have

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Comes from Jesus Christ and his apostles That wasn't even enough It comes from the Council of Nicaea It does

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That's a horrible argument It comes from some weird Yeah, it just comes from It's a bad doctrine

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Okay And it's something that, you know It's something that's ridiculous It's something that makes God A being I can't comprehend

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The knowledge He says the knowledge that you have Is to that of the beasts Yes, I agree with that And then he says To know the nature of God Is the most important thing

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Yes And he says And you all have got to learn to become gods Just like God has done before you

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You have imagined and supposed That God has been God from all eternity I will take away the veil So that you may see

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You have got to learn to become gods That's what he says In the King Paul discourse And we do have to learn to become gods

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Does God receive worship? What? Does God receive worship? Yes Will you one day? I don't know I think it's hard for you to admit it, man

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No, it's not hard for me to admit it I think Joseph would say absolutely Okay Did he say it? According to the King Paul discourse

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Did he? Where does it say it? That all gods have done it before him And it says that God I will receive worship God the Father had a God once himself

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It's like C .S. Lewis says it C .S. Lewis says it wonderfully, right? He says What is it called?

26:53

I can't escape my mind, but He says it I think he says it wonderfully And he talks about how essentially You know, the greater

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He says a human is more capable A man is more capable of worship of God Than a chicken, right? Or something I can't remember the exact way he quotes it

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Yeah, we're made in the image of God To worship him Absolutely Different than the creation in general And so if God raises me to become

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With the glory and the power and the dominion That he has Then ultimately I can That scares me, man Okay It scares me too, frankly

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So if you think God God the Father I'd have to be For God to trust me There's a scripture in the

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Doctrine and Covenants And it says that As soon as man is given a little authority Paraphrasing He says as soon as man is given a little authority

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He will immediately begin To exercise unrighteousness Right? And that's absolutely true And so that's why

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It's told me that Jesus Christ Is so necessary to perfect us Is that I don't believe And this is something that is true

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This is something that is doctrine Is that, you know, if I All of a sudden If I have infinite authority Right? Then my tendency And my temptation

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To abuse that authority Is infinite, why? Because I am mortal Because I am weak Because I am incomplete I am not perfect I believe that one day

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I will be perfect Because Jesus Christ Commands me to be perfect When? Matthew 5 .48

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When? When do you think you'll be perfect? Oh, I have no idea Sometime far future I don't know I don't know

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But I know it's only possible Through the grace of Jesus Christ And that is what I do And I know that That through his atonement

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That I can be saved That I will be saved And all I have to do Is take up my cross and follow him

28:15

It's interesting Because in 1st John it says He who says they are without sin The truth is not in them

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Did I say that? Well, if you're going to be perfect one day You're going to be without sin God will Yes Okay, so John says

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So will you be Will you be without sin in heaven? Yeah, after I'm gone I'm dead and I'm judged Yes Yeah So you will be one day perfected

28:32

Yeah, not now That's what I just said Not before glorification That's what I just said No, no, no, no, no This is Here's my question then

28:37

Let me see if I can get Exactly Let me see if I can get Clarification from you then So do you believe

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That be ye perfect As your heavenly father is perfect Is a command from God Correct, yes Okay Do you believe that this life

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Is the life that you have To prepare to meet God Like it says in the album Yeah Okay Do you believe Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7

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That says I'll pull the scripture for you I'll pull the scripture for you Because there's an actual There's an answer to this explicitly

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Okay Right, there's Oh, I literally had it pulled up What do you know? 82 .7 What? Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7 I'm not talking about the scripture

29:07

I'm talking about 3rd Nephi 27 Okay 3rd Nephi 27 .19 No unclean thing

29:12

Could enter into his kingdom I'm talking about God the father This is when Jesus Christ Right, we talk You know there's a lot of difference Like what is the gospel, right

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And a lot of people say Well the gospel is faith And repentance and baptism And it's like that's such An oversimplification of the truth

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Jesus Christ teaches his gospel In 3rd Nephi 27 verse 14 I think it's 27 If you go read it He literally says

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Here's my gospel That the father's given unto me Right, anyway He says in here He says no unclean thing Could enter into his kingdom

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Therefore nothing enters Into his breast Save it be those Who have washed their garments In my blood Right, so that's

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Nothing can enter into his presence Unless they've washed Their garments in my blood And now here's where you're gonna say Well I don't agree with that But because of their faith

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And their repentance Of all their sins And their faith In the Son of the end So what's repentance? Following God Changing So what's repentance?

30:38

So what's repentance then? Changing our nature Okay, so what if you sin again? What? If I sin again? Yeah, according to Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7

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Well then I'm still In the process of repenting Why not? Is that just your interpretation? No Yeah, I'm gonna answer The question Is that your interpretation

30:49

Of 82 .7? I mean sure There you go You just fell flat On your own logic Yeah 82 .7

30:55

I'm not saying I have the authoritative Truth No, but this is What you do though Listen I haven't read a sermon On 82 .7 But this is what you do though So when

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I'm quoting Scripture to you And I say This is what it's saying You go Well it's just your Interpretation man

31:09

You Have a position on 82 .7 And I can just look at you And go that's just your Interpretation Well I don't know I've never said that But what the scripture

31:14

Looks like it's plainly Saying to me Is that if you sin again All your former sins Are placed upon you Well that makes sense Does it not? So if I sin

31:20

And you would agree with this So if I sin You know I am incapable I fall short of the glory of God And now we've all sinned So we've all done that right?

31:25

So if I sin Romans 3 right there Say it perfectly Say I receive forgiveness for my sins I repent fully whatever All of a sudden I sin again

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Am I then again imperfect And falling short of the glory of God? No No In terms of how

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I'm justified Before God I'm never going to be perfect In this life Those who are without sin The truth is not in you

31:41

So this is what the Bible teaches In terms of the gospel man And this is why it's so important So it states this If I I know you're probably looking

31:48

For the Bible I do yeah So So I won't be perfect man I can't be perfect It's impossible

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I'm a human dude So I rest perfectly In the righteousness of Christ I want to obey

31:59

God Because he's changed my heart We talked about the piano player I can't play piano if I'm dead Oh it's really inconvenient

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To obey him sometimes I can't say I cannot say that my desire That I always want to do that I always want to obey I sin all the time

32:10

I get it I hate it I get it I wish I didn't I feel the same way I get it I get it

32:15

So here's the thing like In order for me to play piano According to the gospel That I believe in In the New Testament I gotta first be brought

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Back to life Alright I'm dead I have no aspect Of doing it whatsoever It's by the grace of God That I even touch the keys

32:28

First I'm brought back From spiritual deadness To play it And the reason is Is that when Jesus Saves my soul

32:34

According to the gospel He takes my sins Upon himself And then gives me His righteousness It's in Zechariah In the

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Old Testament Zechariah We can't We don't have our own righteousness Just listen So I will sin again

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I will most likely Sin until the day That I die Yes Alright But my former transgressions

32:52

Won't be placed back on me I'm justified now Declared righteous Solely through the blood Of Christ In his perfect obedience

32:58

His perfect righteousness His perfect works to the law Not mine But your sins are forgiven on the day

33:04

You're saying your sins are Like your sins So your sins are You know when you're glorified That's when you become perfect Right when you're judged

33:09

Whatever right So then that's not even An option for you Well right So you're saying So from this whole conversation

33:15

That we've had Yeah yeah So the day that your sins Are forgiven Right like fully Is the day that you are Judged and brought to be In the presence of God Whatever like I am declared righteous

33:24

Solely through the work of Christ Yes but those past sins Are still impeded on you Until the day that What right No my sins were placed

33:30

On Christ on the cross Yeah okay Right and I can still It's all semantic I'm sure I didn't use Your language but No no no

33:35

My sins aren't just forgiven Once I meet God My sins are forgiven now And I have the

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Holy Spirit Inside of me Yes Who dwells with me By faith in Christ My sins are forgiven now man

33:45

Yeah I will never be perfect I say there's a condition Of repentance And John does too No Oh the word repent

33:51

Oh come on Jesus Christ never Commands you to repent No no no Did he command you to repent But repentance according To the Bible Metanoia in the

33:56

Greek Is like you said A change of heart A change of mind You listen to some President Nelson sermons He quotes the word

34:02

Metanoia all the time I just want you to know that Yeah yeah And he would agree He's doing it 100 % here Except with Doctrine 80

34:07

Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7 Repentance And I've heard this taught Even from Mormon teachers

34:13

Or prophets Spencer W. Kimball Teaches it Repentance Means that you're not

34:18

Doing a sin again When they interpret Be perfect as your Heavenly Father Is that not your Is that not your Changed Is that not your

34:24

Nature's changed It says if you sin again All of your former sins Are placed back on you So then have you Fully repented Repentance doesn't mean

34:31

That I'm going to not Do an action again Well it means your Nature's changed right Yes Is your Right and you say

34:36

Well it's of course Is your nature perfect I'm not perfect I made mistakes Is your nature perfect I have faith in Christ And I'm clothed in the

34:45

Righteousness of Christ And so it's being made perfect I am being saved Through sanctification Okay By God But it's not my perfection

34:52

That saves me Right It is the grace of Jesus Christ And I will be with the Father forever Solely through the work of Christ No external obedient work

34:58

To the law Like article 3 right We believe that all mankind May be saved Through the atonement Of Jesus Christ By obedience

35:06

To the gospel So you don't have to Take up your cross And follow Jesus Christ You just have to like Believe in him No no no Here's the thing No I'm just This is what

35:11

Jesus said He said if any man Will come after me Then take up his cross And follow me Yeah but you're assuming That obedience to the Gospel ordinances

35:16

And principles Are the cross No Yeah No I think that Following Jesus Christ Is taking up the cross

35:23

When I take up that cross It means I said After Jesus Christ It means I obey his command So obedience to the Gospel ordinances

35:28

And principles Is not Jesus' commandments To you No it absolutely is That's what I just said It's a part of that Thank you

35:34

It doesn't replace The life of a Christian In terms of picking up My cross

35:40

Christianity is the Death march man It's a death march I agree It doesn't mean That I'm going to Work myself to death

35:46

It means Even in my suffering Even in this life That we have I am justified

35:52

Declared righteous And because of my Love for God I follow the death March up to the hill

35:57

And I say the way That Jesus Christ Carried his own cross Up to that hill That's what he means I'm expected to do the same

36:03

Man dude That's heavy bro You can't do that You think you can do What Jesus did No I don't

36:08

But I'm expected to try To follow To follow his teachings To live his life Absolutely I'm not expected to Die on the cross with him

36:15

No but I'm expected To do what Simon of Cyrene did To take up his cross And to follow him Is that not exactly Literally what he did

36:21

He took up his cross And through his Perfect work to the law No I'm talking about Simon of Cyrene He did not take up His cross and follow

36:27

Christ He helped Jesus Carry his cross No but did he literally Not take up his cross And follow Christ Like literally right Yeah yeah No I'm talking metaphorically

36:33

I take up that cross And I follow Jesus Christ Right I try to bless the lives In the ways that he did

36:38

I try to live the way That he did You're going to try Yourself to death man Oh I know And it's not going to Be enough And that's where Jesus Christ makes

36:44

All the difference Oh my goodness That's all I've got For you but I really Missed that second bus So I'll miss it again Bro can you run there

36:50

No but I'll just Wait until it stops I don't want to miss The next one I'm actually enjoying This conversation

36:55

That's why my heart Breaks as a Christian It's like man You're never going To be good enough dude

37:01

You're not going To ever do it And when you Stand before the father This is my worry This is where my heart

37:07

Comes from When you stand Before the father He's going to Look at you He's going to go You thought

37:13

You could do Things to make Yourself holy And in that You denied The death of Christ I make myself holy No absolutely

37:19

It says in Galatians 2 21 It says those who Seek to be justified By the works of the law

37:24

The death of Christ Has no effect on them No I don't I seek to be justified By the grace of Jesus Christ So what's different Then between the person

37:30

I just follow him There's a condition on that And it's try your best To follow him That's all it is And that's taught Throughout the

37:36

Bible It's taught Throughout scripture So what's the difference Then between the person In the lowest level of heaven And the person

37:41

In the highest level of heaven The atoning blood Of Jesus Christ Jesus I mean you read

37:47

That scripture again 35 27 17 19 Jesus Christ says

37:53

On that day When he stands Before the father None will enter In his presence Save his garments Be washed in the blood

37:58

Of the lamb Right That is all Christ is going to see If I stand before him Right If I do have that faith in him

38:04

And if I just try Right Because of their faith And if you just try And if I just try See that's You don't have to try

38:10

You don't have to try This is the thing No no no I'm asking Do you have to try For my justification And my righteousness

38:16

You don't have to try I'm like the thief on the cross man Screw all this man What am I trying for See it's funny Because Roman Paul anticipates you

38:22

In the book of Romans Because he actually presents The picture of the gospel That I presented to you And he says And there will be those

38:27

Who charge us by saying I should just sin then So that grace may abound Then it says By no means

38:32

So that's what you asked me And that's what Paul anticipates When someone gives them the gospel Because I don't I don't understand the gospel

38:37

In that language Because that's not the way I see it You don't understand the gospel Of the bible That's the problem That's ok I do I fully do

38:42

No listen So I've read I've read the whole bible I've read You know Galatians says

38:49

Galatians is It's like What it warns me And why my heart hurts Is because there's people Called the Judaizers And they were in the church in Galatia And they demand

38:57

That all Christians Have to live the law of Moses They have to be circumcised And they said No you don't have to be circumcised But We do expect all converts

39:04

To start To stop having fornication They also say Some other things That we don't follow anymore In the church Because we understand

39:09

That Jesus Christ Is not requiring Those things anymore He says Well they also shouldn't Eat sacrificed idols

39:14

Which we don't do right And they shouldn't Eat blood And so It's a little bit Of course you don't

39:19

Live the law But there's a couple Of things That maybe We should start doing No no But the point That Paul is making In the book

39:25

Is he's saying That there's people Who are saying Yes you believe in Jesus Yes you have faith But you gotta try this way

39:31

You gotta try that way You gotta just first Circumcise your flesh In order to actually

39:36

Be considered a Christian Right And he says No He says If that's something You believe in You might as well

39:42

Cut your whole member off Those who seek To be justified By the works of the law The death of Christ Has no effect on you It's not

39:47

I am justified By the works of Christ Because I try That's not what the Bible Presents in the gospel

39:53

No it's because Jesus Christ Has given me a gift Of grace That allows me to return To live in the presence

39:58

Of the Father And all that he asks Is that I try And all that he asks Is that I try And that's fine You can disagree with that I think the way

40:05

That you view faith Is almost a work In and of itself So you say Well I have to do this You're putting a condition On that salvation

40:10

No I'm not I said I'm dead In my trespasses You're not a universalist Right So there's some condition

40:16

On it Well that's a condition On faith In Jesus Christ Read these From Moroni right here I gotta get going

40:22

I've said that a million times I gotta get the next bus But I mean I've got the pamphlet In my pocket anyway Which one did you get?

40:28

Yeah look at this one He got this one By grace These ones in Moroni Moroni speaking about How grace is affected

40:35

Upon a person And it's always after baptism After After baptism here

40:42

Then they're counted Among those of Christ Moroni 1032 That's literally The description that we use

40:47

Why we keep membership records Because when we talk about The body of Christ The church That's why we don't Make members You know we don't

40:53

Make those records When people don't Make those They can come to church Every week Right And cool Are they part of the church The body of Christ No because they haven't

40:58

Been baptized And we put We write their name down So that's literally What that means Yeah I'm just I'm trying to Basically demonstrate

41:05

Well I'm just telling you What that means I'm telling you what that means From a latter day saint right Because I read that And then I actually do Something about that Which is You know we keep baptism records

41:11

Yeah I mean it's hard For me to believe that Let's just talk about Them meeting What the book of Mormon Intends here

41:16

Is administration No that chapter If you read that chapter It's about like It says the church met And prayed together often So that And there's a bunch of Reasons why they actually met

41:23

Like this is literally Talking about church administration Moroni 2 through 6 And then chapter 8 Are all about like Okay here's the way

41:29

That we're going to Bless the sacrament Here's the way That we're going to do this So if you want to read That in context That's exactly what It's talking about Yeah I'll read it

41:34

Is that in context Or is that just your Interpretation No if you read chapter 2 And then chapter 3 And then chapter 4 So one is like It talks about The ordination of priests

41:40

And teachers And one is about The sacrament It's literally talking About church administration So you believe context Actually determines truth

41:46

In the passage It's not just your Interpretation But it's not just Your interpretation though I'm telling you about How this has been

41:52

Interpreted in the Church of Christ Oh so it is an Interpretation It's not necessarily true Well yeah I believe a prophet Can totally interpret the Scripture I don't have to I don't have that authority

42:00

But you're switching Your games again That's what I'm saying You said well The context and all this Is that Have you been ordained

42:05

At the hand of God In the way I call a prophet In the same way That Russell M. Nelson No the question is Do they Oh absolutely

42:10

No they haven't They can't contradict Previous revelation That's fine But you try to determine Truth through context

42:15

And Scripture Can interpret the Scripture I'm just holding you To your own logic I've really got to go I don't want to miss This one again Hey I'm Andrew What's your name?

42:20

Andrew Nice to meet you Andrew Nice to meet you I'm Aidan Me too David David Nice to meet you Pleasure to meet you both yeah

42:26

I appreciate the conversation I'm sorry we couldn't see eye -to -eye on everything you know ultimately at the day of judgment one of us be right one of us wrong well you know we'll figure it out yeah god love you both god bless have a good night