Radio Debate: Proclaiming The Gospel of Grace in Salt Lake

Good evening and welcome once again to religion on the line. This is van hale, and I will be host of the program this evening

Bill Forrest as I mentioned that last week is on a little vacation over spring break and So he will not be with us this evening, but I do have sitting in Bill's seat this evening

James White and We will be discussing Several topics who knows where all this might go is particularly when we invite your participation.

Let me just lay a little Ground rule or two for this evening's discussion insofar as the callers are concerned.

I Don't really care. What what it is that you want to talk about or if you're if your feelings are

Strong or mild or your language strong or mild that's fine But I do want to request that you direct your your questions or comments this evening to Topics which could be addressed by our guest

James White and myself So if you have some comment on some previous program or want to carry on a discussion of something that we've discussed

Over the past few weeks. Let me invite you please to put that off until our next program

When We will have an open discussion and you can pursue whatever topic you have you would like to choose this evening

We're going to be talking about I would say the differences between my point of view which basically comes out of my

LDS perspective and the point of view of James White which comes basically

I believe out of the out of the position of Protestant the

Protestant Reformation and So we'll be discussing what I consider to be some of the not just myself, but I'm sure what

James and I would both consider to be some of the significant differences of theology and doctrine between these two different points of view and I think to start with Let me just mention that James White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and he comes up here

Frequently I guess twice a year Twice a year. In fact, it's somewhat of an anniversary This is the 20th consecutive general conference that I've been to and passed out literature at So starting starting the second decade now and you have a publication that you put out

Well, if you're referring to Prossopology on our theological journal, we put that out on a semi -regular you know how that works and Also, I'm the author of letters to a

Mormon elder at Bethany House publication that Is currently out from from Bethany House and Actually, I'm getting a lot of letters from Utah on letters to a

Mormon elder. It seems to be doing quite well up here Okay this evening. We're going to be talking about I thought maybe just to start with I would throw out a couple of ideas and we'll just kind of draw the

The distinction between your point of view and my point of view on a few topics to lead us into our discussion this evening first of all

It seems to me that one of the most substantial differences that leads to a number of other differences between our two theologies is the question of the absolute omnipotence of God and in reference to that I'm referring to the the idea of creation out of nothing creation

X me hello, and I'm What what is your position did God create everything out of nothing?

Well, I think it goes a lot farther than just simply a crash. Oh X me Hello the idea that God has full creative power

That he is omnipotent in the sense of having the power to create out of nothing all matter

Whether spirits or or a rock or whatever it might be. I think it goes far beyond that even to the entire theology of God That's what underlies the major difference

Obviously I've always said between Mormonism and what I view as historical

Christianity is that in Christian thought God is absolutely and totally unique That he is immutable unchangeable and that he is absolutely perfect and obviously perfection and changeability being in my thinking a

Two things that cannot go together. And so one of the what I feel anyway should be one of the major objections raised by Evangelicals reformed individuals such as myself against Mormonism should focus upon the nature of God and then you've you've looked at letters to a

Mormon elder and you know that That is really one of my strong emphases is who

God is because many of the conversations within the gospel Which hopefully we'll do this evening as you recognize the fundamental differences there go back to Very different viewpoints in regards to who

God is and then how that Fits into what God's purpose in this world is what man's ultimate destiny is what man's purpose is it all comes back to who

God is and that's why I think that that should be the primary area of Inquiry at first when two people are attempting to communicate on these issues, but how often is it at least in my experience?

Joseph Smith or something becomes discussed much earlier than some of the fundamental issues

Well, I don't know that Joseph Smith is not Not maybe the most fundamental issue, but when we get into theological discussions and the question of whether Of the omnipotence the absolute omnipotence of God is is of course the starting point at least as I see it and and my my thinking on that particular point would be

I think in line with traditional LDS thinking and that is that God did not create everything from nothing but God is an organizer and creation in in an

LDS definition would have reference to the organization of Matter rather than to the creation out of nothing

That whatever position you take on that I think leads to Another takes you down,

I think two different roads and For example in the question of salvation which of course is one of the

Areas in which we would I think diverge significantly in the area of salvation my question would be

To you to bring out maybe the difference between us on this point is Do you feel that man does man have any responsibility in his own salvation

Does man have any responsibility? If you mean by that is man able to bring about his own salvation or is man put in a situation where salvation is merely offered to him and then it is up to him whether he

Brings about his own salvation or not Obviously, I would say that man being dead in sin is not is not capable of saving himself

And that outside of regeneration man isn't capable of doing anything that is pleasing to God in line with Romans chapter 8 verses 5 through 9

And many other passages if you when you use the term responsibility God has created man in such a way that man does what his will

Decides to do and the will acts upon the desires that are presented to the will by the heart

Well, when you say the will are you talking about the man's will or God's will I'm speaking of speaking of man's will that man's will

Makes decisions based upon the desires that are presented to the will by his by his personality by his heart and I believe that Outside of regeneration as the scripture says the the desires of man's heart are evil

Continuously that there's no man who does good There's none who seeks after God and hence as Jesus said those who commit sin are slaves to sin

Men are enslaved to sin and hence their will is always to decide against what

God would have them to do Outside again of their being given a new nature of their being set free from this bondage to sin

That is by being born again by being made a new creature in Christ Jesus Now when you say the reason

I want to get back to responsibility is that? man's situation which he is in in regards to sin is something that that he

Embraces that he holds on to and he is held responsible for that for his rebellion against God just as you would hold a criminal or he's responsible for Wanting to go out and murder people or doing things like that man is held responsible for being a rebel

But when you say is he we've got to differentiate between responsibility and ability Yes, what what

I'm referring to in this question. I don't know exactly how to phrase it so that we were communicating

Appropriately on this but the question in that I'm getting at here is

In your from your point of view from your theological perspective Does can man do anything that has an effect upon his salvation?

The only way I can answer that is to say that God is the one who saves men completely That God works within men and he sanctifies them and causes them to be more like Christ But who is to be saved is

God's decision not man's decision because it is an act of grace and The very fact of being born again is not something that comes out of man's will as the gospel

John says men are are born not of the will of man nor the will of flesh but of God and So when you say, you know, does man have anything to do with his salvation if you use salvation?

So in a in a very broad term the sense of well does God just say people need to sit around do nothing Paul said that we are

Christ's workmanship create in Christ Jesus unto good works So good works are very important But if you're talking about salvation sense of who is and who is not going to eventually experience eternal life with God That is

God's work. That is God's Activity completely that's why Paul said in first Corinthians chapter one

It is by his doing that you are in Christ Jesus if it was just a matter and this is this is an area where?

There are a lot of actually interesting enough on some of these issues there would be a lot of people who would agree

More with with an LDS perspective on some of these issues than they would with with my own And that is that there's a common perspective out there that well

God puts out a plan here's here's the plan and He says anyone who does this plan will be saved anyone who doesn't won't and that's a real common perspective

Is that he makes salvation available? And if you do this and various religious groups have you know only one thing to do or a hundred things to do and you know who knows which it is, but the whole point is

God makes God puts the offer on the table and he sits back and He's not there.

He maybe doesn't know maybe he does know that people disagree. I don't believe that that's how

God functions I don't believe that's what the Bible teaches. I believe that God not only created the plan

God actually Accomplishes the plan that he has a purpose and that he is bringing people unto himself and I believe that the

Bible teaches that very clearly and so the Honest idea of salvation then would would it be your point of view that that?

Sometime before the creation that God knew how many people would be saved and how many people would be damned

Not just new but determined and he determined which would be saved and which would be damned.

Yes I do believe that and that what what God then is doing There will simply be no surprises

There is no God. There is no surprises for God. No the idea that the God is surprised I think is is is completely outside the realm of the of the

Bible I don't believe that the Bible presents God as being surprised I believe the Bible presents

God and in the words of Ephesians 1 11 And also we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to his purpose and here's the description of God Who works all things after the counsel of his will not after the counsel of men's will?

not in the sense of God sitting around and and having sort of a magical ball where he looks into the future and sees what's

Going to happen and then does things on the basis what he sees or even some people would say God just simply predicts

Well because he has so much knowledge about what's going on now But that he can predict future events real well and better than we can because we don't have as much knowledge

God God is the moving force in your mind. And what what is happening is happening by God's According to God's eternal decree.

Well, they're not not just looking forward and predicting but so so Let's maybe just become a little bit personal on this.

I Becomes very personal so yeah, it does and I reject that idea as well as I reject the the idea of That we've already talked about of God Creating the the known universe out of nothing

Does that put me outside the parameters of salvation in your mind?

Well, certainly I would say that would set you outside the parameters of a person who's worshiping the one true God of the

Bible Okay, I would say that just as in Israel is Israel of old there were limited deities that were known to the

Israelites whose power and authority was limited either to a particular realm of nature or to a particular geographical area and The Bible is very plain that they were not to have any dealings with these individuals in the sense of being in any way shape

Or form involved with their religious worship. Why because it's idolatry and Jehovah is the only true

God and As Jesus said he seeks worshipers to worship him in spirit and truth

And I do not believe and we've discussed this before I think it's very straightforward that I do not believe that the

God of Joseph Smith who as you have indicated is limited in the sense of not having created all things, but he organizes things and You'd have to limit the phrase all things to those things dealing with this creation

However, you might define that but if he was an exalted man to live on another planet There were things he did not himself organize that there is a deity before him that organized those things

But that is not the true God that there is no salvation in the worship of that God So to bring this

To make this really personal maybe make something that we can discuss here in some concrete terms

I'm assuming that you're that you're certain that you will be saved Well, I am when you say certain that I will be saved.

I am certain that that God's plan of salvation is true.

I Admit the possibility that there is hypocrisy in my heart And so I am

NOT going to say that I am imperfect that I am perfect that I am infallible or that I am

You know absolutely beyond a doubt a person who has you know, no faults and Could not

Someday run off and deny the faith or something like that. But that that has to do With with me as an individual in the fact that I recognize sin in my own heart

And I recognize the power of hypocrisy and the power of self -deception But I do believe that God is perfectly capable of saving me

Without any additions on my part That's really the important thing and that is that I believe

God's promises and hence God can save me and it's not a matter of well I'm not sure what

I'm gonna get saved or not because I'm not sure if I can fulfill this condition that condition this condition that Condition Jesus Christ has fulfilled all those conditions in my place

Okay, maybe we won't be able to make this quite as personal as I was hoping for but You're you're convinced that at least from what you can tell about myself that I am

I am NOT within the circle of salvation if if the words you've spoken to me truly reflect your your belief in God Then then it would be very similar to someone asking me is is someone who is involved in in any religion

That does not present the God of the Bible Are they under the redemption of the

God of the Bible and my understanding of Scripture prohibits me from saying well Yes certainly they are because I see nothing in Scripture teaches me that God saves people outside of his truth and obviously my idea that That that's your idea.

I'm sorry that God is is a limited being in the in in those areas where we you know In fact has not eternally been

God and was once a man is an exalted the status of Godhood I don't believe there's salvation in the worship of that God, and I don't believe that an individual who is

Experienced regeneration has been born again by the Spirit of God. It's going to believe that for Any particular length of time

I suppose possible theoretically for a short period of time But you and I have been doing this talking to one another about these issues since For a long time

I'm not sure how long so do you think it is possible for an individual to know that he that he

Will be saved is that with is that a possibility well that goes into a whole area of dealing with the

Subjective witness of the spirit in a person's heart and if you're asking do I do I have a subjective witness of Spirit of God My heart that I am amongst redeemed.

Yes. I'm just simply admitting the fact that there is The possibility in the fact that I am a sinful person that I have a fallen nature

Which is one of the things we I think may get into this evening That there is still sin abiding in my heart and the possibility exists that I could deceive myself

And that's why the scripture says we're to test ourselves to see whether we're in the faith that we're not just simply to say well

You know I'm on redeemed. I'm never gonna. You know let that thought cross my mind again but That's that's that's really a different area than saying

Well I may make it I may not it all depends on whether I manage to work up enough faith or something like that I hope everyone understands.

I deny that a man can work up faith. I believe faith is a gift of God I believe it is given to God's elect by the

Holy Spirit of God And if the faith that I have is that kind of saving faith it will not fail Okay from what we were talking about a little earlier though What you are doing?

From what I understand you're what what you have said so far is you are you what you are doing is what

God has? Willed or decreed for you to do yeah, and what

I am doing is what God has willed or decreed for me to do mm -hmm and If and we both do what we do willfully out of the desires of our hearts well

I'm I don't know that I don't know that that logically follows But but the point that I'm leading to here is that you you are carrying out

God's will You're acting out God's will his decree In every minute detail as he has decreed it, and you're not going to do anything to surprise

God and from your point of view I'm not going to do anything to surprise God. I'm acting out his will so we're both acting out

God's will willfully and and yet In from your perspective if not you personally well

I think you've kind of indicated that you you see yourself as among the redeemed You're you're acting out.

God's will you're only doing that which God has already has decreed for you to do I'm only doing that which God has decreed for me to do and Yet, you will be saved in eternal bliss because that's

God's will and I will be Damned and suffer eternal torment I suppose because And yet, we're both acting out.

God's will precisely in every detail It's very interesting the objection that you're that you're raising of course is is one that is found in the

Bible It is found in that famous passage in Romans chapter 9 Where Paul brings up this very objection he has presented the sovereignty of God in salvation

He has laid these things out. We'll take a look at here in a moment and an objector to Paul's positions says

Well if we're doing God's will who is who is he to blame us, so it's interesting I would

I would submit to you that in point of fact the objections you raise is an objection was raised against the Apostle and so That I think in the end of itself is fairly important But when you say you're working out

God's will and in the sense of his decree that how he is How he is decreed that the time is going to take place two things you kept hearing me say

Willfully that is that it is your desire to do what you are doing you are acting on the desires that are presented to your

Will by your heart as am I and so it is not that you wish that you were down at Temple Square Passing out literature with us.

It is not that you really wish you could do that, but there's this force It's just compelling you and forcing you to do something against your will not at all

I am NOT in any way shape or form saying that there are people running around that just wish that they could do

What's right that just wish they could worship the one true God? But God's forcing them not to that's the first important thing the second thing is in Acts chapter 4

You remember the the prayer of the early church? When the Apostles are persecuted by by the

Jewish High Council, and they're they're told do not preach in the name of Jesus anymore There's a very interesting prayer in Acts chapter 4 and they refer to what happened to the

Lord Jesus Christ now Would you agree with me that what? Pilate and Herod and the

Sanhedrin and the Roman soldiers what these individuals did in Nailing the sinless son of God to a cross that what they did was in fact sinful that it was in fact the

Jewish leaders for example were very plainly motivated by jealousy and hatred and Desire for power and all these all these other things would you not agree that what they what they did was a heinous crime?

Yes, I would agree with okay. Well here. We have a Situation where probably one of the greatest crimes in history has taken place

But notice how the church prays in Acts chapter 4 beginning verse 27 for truly in this city

They were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus Whom thou didst anoint both Herod and Pontius Pilate along with the

Gentiles and the peoples of Israel verse 28 to do Whatever thy hand and thy purpose predestined to occur

Acts chapter 4 verse 28 and read it again to do whatever thy hand and thy purpose predestined to occur now here you have one event in time the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and Yet you have different people involved you have

Herod and Pilate and the Jewish leaders, and what is their motivation? What is the desire of their heart? It's evil, and they're held responsible for that, but God's involved too and God has predestined this to occur for what purpose for an evil purpose

No, we know of course that in the death of Jesus Christ the greatest good in all the universe is brought out

And this is the same thing you have in Romans 9 with Pharaoh the raising up of Pharaoh so on so forth the point being that in a sinful action

You can have the desires of the part of the person who is committing the sinful act and that's the basis upon which that Individual is judged, but God can use sinful acts

God used the sinful act of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ He used the sinful act of Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery

Genesis chapter 50 after Jacob has died his brothers Are scared to death that Joseph is now going to take vengeance upon them, but what does

Joseph say to them? He says you meant this for evil God meant it for good But it's not just the it's not just that God uses these

These sinful acts what you're suggesting is that God is God is the one that had decreed this and is orchestrating the sinful acts

That everything that takes place in in time and history takes place at God's decree and that everything therefore

And this is very important. This isn't just a theological speculation. This is very important everything

It takes place does so for a purpose There is no such thing as a purposeless action in this world, and I think that's extremely important Okay, the problem that I have with what you're saying though is it's coming back to the idea of The If if I am if I am just simply if what

I am doing is what God has laid out I'm I'm acting out the script that he's written and I'm in Act 257 ,000 right now or something and this was all decreed

By God that you and I would be sitting here doing this and that everything that that you do in your life and everything that I do in my life

Is simply enacting out of the will of God? Then it would appear to me that there is no logical conclusion other than that It is

God's will that I commit sin, or I I have false beliefs that It's simply his will that I be punished for Acting out the script which has been written from which

I cannot deviate notice again that what you what you did was you changed? The thing that I emphasize right at the beginning and that is that each of the things that we do

As individuals each of the things that you do as an individual You are not forced to do in a sense of you're desiring to do something else

It is the desire of your heart and that is the only basis upon which God judges is the fact that you act upon the desires of your heart

And it's interesting I said, you know, this is the this is the objection and I'd be interested in hearing what?

Obviously you would not feel that you're actually voicing this objection from the Bible But I'd like to know why you don't feel you're voicing this objection.

Yeah, but before we take a break here. No, no Okay, I'm sorry before you go to that though I I would just like to make my my position my thinking clear on this and that is

Simply that if God created if everything that I am God created

That means that every desire of my heart every propensity that I have every inclination that I have everything that I do every thought that I have

I have that only because of what God the way in which God created me and So if that's the case

And all I it's not my okay. It's my heart you're saying and it's my will but It's the heart that God gave me and the will that God gave me.

I Have nothing else according, you know coming from your perspective. I have nothing else except that which

God created from nothing And so it's not okay. It's my I'm doing something of my own free will and choice as are you?

From your perspective, but God placed that will within me. Well, it's his will it's not really mine

Well, no, I would I would disagree with you to your term will there you are doing what the desires of your heart the will

Simply chooses amongst the desires that are presented to it and goes from there But when you say I need to clarify one thing

She said that you only have what God has given you in regards to the nature of man

Yeah We are very very careful to assert that when God created man man was perfect that man did not have those evil propensities until Adam fell and That yes, we do believe and again

This is a major area where where Mormons disagree with this concept that we all fell in Adam And that we are in fact have a corrupted nature because of Adam That the whole concept of original sin which which of course was a large

Discussion of days of Joseph Smith and remains so today and that he reacted in accordance to that particular doctrine

But when you say well, I'm just what God made me to be Again I think we do need to look at what

Roman science says about that. But the point again is upon What basis does God judge? Is it on the basis of does he force us to think?

In the eternal concepts and that to have the ability to see outside the realm of time

Does he bait does he judge us on anything outside of what he himself has said? He would judge us on and what does he judge us upon?

He's he's revealed what is right and what is wrong and Yet we willfully

Do what is against his will he then he will even use my evil actions to one end?

And this is this is another major area. What is the purpose of this creation? I don't think

I would let me put this way. I do not believe in a Mormonism the final purpose of The universe is theocentric

At all in Christianity the the purpose for creation The purpose of life can all be wrapped up in the glory of God God is

Demonstrating his glory and everything that happens even even I believe in the punishment of the wicked

I believe the punishment of the wicked demonstrates God's glory Not popular things to say these days.

I realize but because there are a lot of people who are not LDS Who feel the weight of those objections and in an attempt to shall

I say? Defend God and to remove from God any any objections that can be raised against his government of the universe are

Willing to say well no God doesn't have anything to do with the bad things that happen in this world God's decrees are not go they do not go so far as to the your actions or my actions

They're just sort of big general things like who's gonna win World War two or something along those lines Who's gonna drop an atomic bomb on whom?

But when it comes down to personalized no, and I I have a real problem with that you talked about being personal

I have a real problem with that a because it's not biblical but also in the sense that I'm not just staying outside of a temple.

That's not what I do. You know, I don't have twice a year So that's all I live for and have a fairly vacant life for a number of years,

I've been a hospital chaplain and So I've taken these beliefs That God is sovereign over all things

Into the hospital Into the room where death is about to happen or just did

Where terrible horrible things have happened and you may have some very difficult questions for me to answer

But I am of the strong opinion That is far more is far better to have to answer the difficult questions

That is to have to look at someone in the grief situation and tell them there is no meaning or purpose

Behind what has happened because God wasn't involved God didn't know it was going to happen. He could do his best to try to put things back together again now

But he didn't know it was going to happen well, I I I can't I can't look at someone and say that so there's there's it's not just an

Theological issue in the sense of a bunch of academics sitting around discussing it I think this impacts the very way in which one lives one's life that's absolutely correct and that's that is the area in which

I have the my greatest concern and we far in regards to the Doctrines of the

Reformation is this doctrine the the path that this forces a person to think logically down is

As I'm looking at it, here's what happens God created everything from nothing. He created me from nothing

I have nothing. I have nothing that came from any other source. I Have no

There can be no possible Opportunity that I can see then for God to point his finger at me and say

You're justified in being Condemned to hell and to be punished for eternity Because of what you did because all

I am doing is the only thing that I could do I had no other option you take for example a car manufacturer manufactures a car that can go 80 miles an hour and He wants to destroy the car because he enters in a in a race where all the cars are going 150 miles an hour

I mean it You know It doesn't make any sense for the Creator of that car to condemn the car for not being able to do something that he did not create that car to do in The first place and that the objection over and over again

It's the same objection that we we have Romans 9 and that's why I said I I need to understand how you feel

This isn't the objection that you present if I can if I can point it out It's in Romans chapter 9 beginning really it begins in in in verse 9 this whole section presents this whole concept

In regards to God's dealings with men And I think

I'll start with verse 9. So this is a word of promise At this time you I will come and Sarah shall have a son and not only this but there was

Rebecca also when she conceived Twins by one man our father Isaac for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad

In order that God's purpose according to his choice might stand not because of works

But because of him who calls it was said to her the older will serve the younger just as written Jacob I love but Esau.

I hate it. What shall we say? Then there is no injustice with God is there may it never be for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom

I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs

But on God who has mercy for the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose

I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth

So then he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires verse 19.

This is why I feel The objection that you're raising is you will say to me then why does he still find fault for who resists his will?

And I can only give you the answer that the inspired scriptures give on the contrary Who are you?

Oh man who answers back to God the thing molded will not say to the molder

Why did you make me like this? Will it or does not the potter have a right over the clay?

To make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use What if God although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known?

endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for Destruction and he did so in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy

Which he prepared hand beforehand for glory now The answer that Paul gives is based upon a theology that you reject

The answer that I honestly believe that the answer that Paul gives that's why I said this is foundational to the

This has to come before what we're getting into now in regards to personal predestination But I honestly see in here or does the potter does not the potter have a right over the clay the idea of the potter?

And the clay is an old testament concept and describes God as the one who creates man

Okay, and I honestly don't think that that is a a part of LDS theology in regards to God I mean you may have a an understanding of it

But I don't think that the theology lies behind it as part of Mormonism But that's where the answer comes from and the answer is who are you?

Oh man to answer back to God Paul doesn't believe that God's an exalted man and hence there is a there's a fundamental distinction between God and man

God is the creator man is the creation and God is the creator has perfect right and will over the creation

Okay Okay Okay, we're back with you live

This is Van Hale host of religion on the line and as you have noticed Bill Forrest is not with us this evening

In his place. I have James White who is the director of Alpha Omega ministries, and we're going to be discussing further this evening the topic of differences between his reformed point of view and my

LDS point of view and I suppose neither one of us Is anxious to maintain any kind of position that we speak officially for any?

Anything other than just maybe our our own point of view, but I think at least from my understanding of the reformed position

I think James Represents it as best as I can in fact some people may ask the question well

You know who are who are what denominations would be described as being reformed? The Presbyterian Church that would follow the

Westminster Confession of Faith some of your Baptist churches I'm a reformed Baptist that is we follow the 1689

Baptist Confession of Faith Which is almost word -for -word the Westminster Confession of Faith with differences in ecclesiology and some baptism things like that And there are some

Episcopalian reformed Episcopalian groups as well So just so that people have an idea of where the the particular theology is coming from and I'm I'm starting to wonder about Bill I don't know that he really exists because he's never been here any time that you and I have done this so I'm beginning to Question that that he's actually a real person.

This is maybe a myth I can understand Let me give our phone numbers our Salt Lake line

There's a new number for the Salt Lake lines, and that is two six three talk that would be two six three eight two five five

The Ogden and North Davis line is six seven zero five eight five five And the

Provo line is four seven zero five eight five five There is no longer a cellular line

If you are calling from a cellular phone you need to make this known to our producer immediately

And we'll get you on as fast as we can I guess with the idea of keeping your bill to a minimum so That that's how it works these days so a slight change from how it has been in the past Well James, let me just let me suggest what

I think Is the Clear position and the overwhelming position of the scriptures and Obviously Calvin was not a dummy and nor were the other

Protestant reformers, and there is no question that that people of the

Reformation perspective can Assemble passages of Scripture which they feel represent the doctrine of the

Reformation on the other hand I think that the overwhelming weight the overwhelming number of passages and teachings from one end of the

Bible to the other is that man has both the capacity to do good and the capacity to do evil and And that there is in fact a real option a real a real opportunity

On the part of each and every individual on a daily basis to make

To make a choice He has a will he's not simply he's not simply carrying out something which has been pre -programmed a

Program which is just running its course or a script or you know a play or something to use a crude analogy that is simply running its course and That when

Jesus is giving direction when he's presenting his Sermon on the Mount when he is throughout

The Gospels presenting time after time instruction and condemnation of people's actions and saying if you do this

Your your reward will be in heaven if you do that you will be condemned these sorts of ideas which run from not just throughout the

New Testament, but throughout the Old Testament in great numbers that if you take it if you take the position that What I am doing and what the people to whom

Jesus is speaking in Paul and so forth What these people are doing is they are simply doing that which

God has willed that which God has for ordained for them to do then you can you know,

I can I can see taking the position that there the script has been written by God and the play is

In progress and you can't have any changes in it because God wrote the script But it takes all the meaning out of such terms as good and evil moral and immoral

Good and bad. There just simply isn't any meaning anymore because it for someone to to make the choice

Or I'm gonna back off from that not to make the choice, but for someone to abuse a child

Is that there's not anything good or bad about that? He's just he's just acting out the part that has been written for him in the script

There is that there is no basis for as far as I can see it and saying that any act is moral or immoral

It's just simply an acting out of what God has already Written or program.

Well, as you said as far as you can see and I think that's the problem and that is that As you're looking at this you are seeking for some ground outside the only possible ground that you can have for meeting purpose good bad evil or anything of the kind and that is and this is unfortunately the common lot of mankind and that is

It is good or evil because God says it is good or evil and there is no ground outside of that outside of God That you can search for and the

Bible is not going to provide you with one There are no higher laws outside of God. There is no cosmic good or evil to which

God corresponds He is the one who defines these things. He has defined them within the creaturely realm

He has given us will within the creaturely realm He judges us only within the creaturely realm for what we do

And so the the abuse of that child continues to be wrong and the problem that I'm having with the way you're putting it

Is yes, I have the big question of answering. Why would God allow that to happen? You have the big question

I feel of having to answer. There's no purpose for that that that abuse of that child

I cannot ever believe that anything good is going to come out of that I can't believe anything good that we come out of Auschwitz It was just a terrible horrible thing and you know

A lot of people say to me I could never worship a God like yours that is sovereign and is in control of all things And I have to ask how can anyone worship a

God that could set a universe in motion that would create the the ovens of Auschwitz It wasn't smart enough to see this coming to avoid it unless there's a purpose unless there is an ultimate goal that will

In point of fact demonstrate that God's wisdom will be vindicated and as I think that's one of the main reasons

We have the Old Testament as Paul said it was written for our instructions through the perseverance and encouragement scriptures We might have hope there were times in Israel's history when things looked like God was not on the throne anymore

But we know that God was involved in those things now you had said well You know the reformed people you can bring up your passages.

I think Romans 9 is one of them But that the overwhelming testimony of Scripture you may know that that Calvin's motto was not just a solo scriptura

But scriptura tota all of Scripture in fact one of the main objections It's raised against the reformed perspective is that we attempt to be too consistent and too wide and bringing information in from the scriptures to Establish the position, but I don't think that's the case at all you also said well

We do have a will and I've said that we have a will but the difference that you'll hear most the time in evangelical preaching for example is a concept of an autonomous will that is that God has a will and men individually have autonomous wills and God's will have really has very little impact outside of maybe defying boundaries on man's will

As R .C. Sproul put in his book chosen by God. God is free I am free God is more free than I am my freedom ends where God's begins

Mine is a creaturely freedom mine is a derivative freedom. It is not a an absolute freedom and I think as Romans 9 points out

God you know it's interesting it seems today that people are far more concerned about man's freedom and God's man's will than God's will and So I'd have to have to bring it back to you and ask you know

I read all of Romans chapter 9 Well all the major section there how the question

I had for you was how do you feel that like verse 19? It is not your objection

You must feel that it isn't but every time that it comes back to it I feel that you're saying you will say you know it's right after Paul says so then

He has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires, and then the object

Desires and then the objection comes up you will say to me then that is the objector saying to the inspired

Apostle Why does he still find fault for who? Resists his will and then

Paul's answer is on the contrary who are you old man who answers back to God? How is that not your objection well?

I I don't know that it isn't my objection, but what what my point would be is if you read

Paul's writings The total yes of Paul's writings you have something like Ephesians chapter 5

Which simply has I? Don't see where it has any value whatsoever It has it has no meaning other than just saying well

This was the part a part in the play God had decreed that Paul should write this and send this letter to the

Ephesians But insofar as his direction is it doesn't I can't see where it has any value.

Let me just read this Ephesians chapter 5 Paul says since you are God's dear children. You must try to be like him

Okay, you must try to be like God. Yes, and and that suggests I mean,

I can't see any possibility of making any sense out of that unless we have the capacity

To do something one way or the other man. May I try to make sense out of it for you from my perspective, okay?

Well, go ahead. Well again, who's this being written to it's written to those who have accepted the gospel in Ephesus Okay, and what is

God's purpose in their lives God's purpose Romans chapter 8 we were being conformed to the image of Christ And we have been set free from the bondage of sin.

We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God What is what is God's whole purpose in in not just taking us out of this world as soon as we regenerate if he?

Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10. We are his workmanship creating Christ Jesus what? Unto good works which

God hath what before ordained that we should walk in them even our good works Okay, but rather than going to Romans.

I like the purpose mean Paul identifies his purpose right here in this Chapter we don't we don't need to go to Romans, but he's saying so he's saying

The word try that his instruction to them to try to be like God To me doesn't have any meaning unless a person has the capacity to try or not to try if he's already been pre -programmed

To go in one direction only to live to to act out a certain

Set of acts in his life then This is without meaning let me go on your life must be controlled by love

Just as Christ loved us who gave his life for us as a sweet -smelling offering and sacrifice that pleases

God Since you are God's people it is not right that any matters of sexual immorality or indecency or greed

Should even be mentioned among you nor is it fitting for you to use language, which is obscene profane or vulgar rather You should give thanks to God You may be sure that no one who is immoral indecent or greedy for greed as a form of idolatry

Will ever receive a share in the kingdom of Christ and of God Do not let anyone deceive you with foolish words

It is because of these very things that God's anger will come upon those who do not obey him

So have nothing at all to do with such people So what Paul is doing the purpose of what he's presenting right here to me is very clear

And that is there's a problem in the church and the problem is that there are men there are those who have accepted the gospel

Who are in a position to where they can make a disastrous choice? And he's he's giving them instruction trying to guide them away from making the wrong choice

But if the choices have already been made Long before the creation was ever established and to me this passage like this makes no sense

Well, and again if you're familiar with any reformed writing at all, you know that there is certainly from our perspective absolutely no

Inconsistency or contradiction whatsoever. I didn't just go to Romans Ephesians 2 is it precedes what we have right here in Ephesians chapter 5

That's right. Just as Ephesians 1 preceded Ephesians 2 That's sort of how it works out and the point is that in all of Paul's epistles

He brought up Paul's epistles, whereas he do he presents theology on the basis of theology He then has the moral exhortations to the individuals to live a

Christlike life. There is no inconsistency whatsoever in regards to Exhortation to live a

Christlike life and the recognition that God is sovereign in all things We as human beings do not know what

God's decrees are in everything that takes place around us We are not we are not Challenged or invited to attempt to think from an eternal perspective

We are we are creatures and we can rest in the fact that God works all things

That's the counsel of his will then in Romans chapter 8 verse 28 That's what we're told that God works everything to the good for those who love

God for them to call according to his purpose But that does not change the fact that we are then exhorted to live a

Christlike life when I am when I was born again God placed within my heart the Holy Spirit of God and my nature desires to live like Christ to glorify him and hence the

The whole basis upon which I want to live a holy life Then is because of the fact that I have been changed not to try to earn something from God not to try to become saved

Or to say to stay saved But because I recognize that God saved me by his grace completely and totally and now it is an act of love of my heart

To walk in holiness now now I don't sit around all day going. I wonder what

God's decree for today Is it he doesn't he doesn't tell me that well I'm not suggesting an inconsistency because I can see where this where this reformed idea is molds us into some kind of consistency

I'm saying that it doesn't have any real meaning as far as I can see to be instructing someone to live a

Certain way and to avoid certain pitfalls When it's impossible for the when it's already been decreed what the person is going to do

Otherwise we need to break to a network news. We will come back and we'll take phone calls during our next hour

This is top, Utah KTK K sandy Salt Lake Ogden, Provo You are listening to religion on the line

This is our second hour this evening religion on the line airs Sunday evenings from 7 till 10 I am your host this evening van

Hale and Bill Forrest is not with me this evening, but he will be back next Sunday instead

James White is here with me shaking his head doubting the existence of Bill Forrest since We've been together on a number of radio programs and for some reason or other bill has never seemed to have been there at the time and so But he does exist and he will be here next

Sunday And we do have a number of callers that have been waiting for a while I'm sure

I have a number of things. I wanted to say and I'm sure James does But we're going to give our colors a chance to get in this evening.

Let me just once again Ask you that if you have a question or comment that does not relate to our discussion this evening, please

Don't call and hold up. Hold it till next week and we'll Get you in there. Okay, let's go to a caller here on the air.

Oh, yes Something about Calvin, you know, he made a quote

God doesn't God doesn't God does not love us because We think we are important.

We are important because God loves us I'm not familiar.

That's to the quote, but it certainly is consistent with with his thought. Yes. Well, you know, it's not what we do

God loves us and he was talking about, you know

God knows man's nature. That's why he wrote the Ten Commandments and as far as Isaac now

Jacob, I love he thought I hate mm -hmm. It was prophesied to his You know their mother before they were even born

You know, I just would be in charge and we know that You know

God overlooked, you know, no one comes to Jesus unless the father's sinning You know, we know you can't come to God unless you know when

I if I share the gospel with somebody It's not me. He's sharing the gospel.

The gospel was already putting his head. I'm just Giving him the opportunity to admit to me his faith that we may share together as brothers

That's an interesting way of looking at it I I feel that one of the plainest passages and then you brought it up in in talking about Jesus's teachings

I wrote a book. I think I gave it to you a while back until drawn by the father and it's exegetical study of John 6 35 to 45 and I think that in this passage

Jesus lays out very plainly Exactly. We've been talking about here and one of the things well, he talks about God's sovereignty

And he says all that the father gives me shall come to me and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out but the other thing in regards to the colors statement was verse 44

Which I see you have I faxed up the track. We were passing out outside the temple square

While the tracks was entitled no man is able and that was based upon John 6 44 and these are

Jesus's words No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day

This isn't your time. You said it if you look out verse 65, he says for this reason I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the father

Now here is a statement of human inability The inability of man in of himself to come to Christ Do you believe that that man is unable to make that that moral decision outside of a supernatural enablement yet?

Anything God does God gives us something he ain't given us anything

We we have no reason to believe in we can't see what God has done for us in our lives and around us and to the

World itself and we have no reason to believe in God that God is revealed through nature.

He does Hey, I I believe that God has a plan And that he is working through a plan

It would I don't feel that he has predetermined or or foreordained what

What all of our actions and that sort of be a term but uh, you gotta understand Isaac Jacob and David they were known to be blessed by God But they didn't say and you know

We don't all we don't all the time do God's will and God has to bring us around to this wheel

Through his prophets and his judges and through his Bible. That's why he doesn't think of man

But he knew man was imperfect and it didn't have their ability to know how to reach

God without God's intervention into our lives to say that uh, we you know that God just put us here and didn't put his hand around us and Help us in our lives as we work with them

You know, it's all reason we're here for God's pleasure and for us to worship him as who he is and what he is

And they'll say, you know everything I do if I do something wrong, I'm not in God's will

That's true. I'm not but I'm still a child of God. And that's why the intercessory. That's why the sacrifice was

Every year or whenever they give the sacrifice because of the sins and God knew they were perfect Okay, thank you for your comments

James on in reference to your passages that you're citing in in John chapter 6

I believe that God does have a plan. I believe that and I believe that it's impossible for man to step forward and Grasp salvation or earn salvation that concept has never been a part of LDS thinking that despite the

Some of the things that we that we say some of the

Sermons and so forth that are presented in some of the writings places a strong emphasis upon Upon our responsibility to live a certain kind of life earning things and earning things

Yes, that would be I think we would we would use that term but insofar as the idea of salvation earning salvation

God has to God has to make the first move. There's no question about that He has made that move and that move that we're seeing we see in the scriptures

We see it in our LDS way of thinking in the workings of the Holy Spirit. The father is reaching out but the

The problem that I have with what I perceive to be your point of view is that God it

From my point of view, it's God's will that everyone be saved It's his will that that's what he wants.

That's that's his desire Is that everyone will be saved and that God is working?

That's that's what he's doing. That's And the evils that are going on in the world and so forth

God is working Through his agents through his disciples through Jesus and his teachings to try and bring us to a realization

That we need to live a better a different kind of life and that we're responsible To our salvation is dependent upon How we live our lives we can't divorce that from From the whole picture and I think divorce it from the whole picture.

Mm -hmm. I mean if you're if you're saying that we do we don't We believe that the way we live our lives is is because God like again fusion

He can't God creates us. We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus. We didn't create ourselves

We didn't choose to be created. We are created in Christ Jesus Unto good works with which

God hath before ordained that we should walk in them And so it is God's decree

God's purpose that I as a child of God as a redeemed Individual as a person involved by the Holy Spirit of God should do good works not to gain salvation not to keep salvation

But because it is the nature of a redeemed person to do good works and in point of fact I would submit that I could not do good works truly good works

Before redemption and I based out of Romans chapter 8 verses 5 to 9 which we can look at in a moment

But you had just you had I have to go back to the scripture again you say

This is what God's trying to do He's trying to save everyone so you'd have to admit that in at least at them at the moment

There's a there's a lot of failure going on there that God is not Saving everyone who's dying that in point of fact non -christian religions

Taken as a whole are far outstripping Christian religions that there is apostasy abounds amongst those who call themselves

Christians that even with the LDS Church membership closing on nine million members that in comparison to the

Human population on earth right now. That's still a very small percentage. Well, wouldn't you wouldn't you say that all those statements are true?

No, no, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that they're all true and I wouldn't say that because of this reason

And that is the difference between your your point of view and mine And that is that as as a person dies that that establishes his eternal situation.

I don't believe that and and I believe that Making reference for example to the passage in second

Peter where it says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth

So it seemed to me that if you're coming from the position that God numbered before before creation

Yeah, he had a number That he knew would be saved and in fact, he is affecting their salvation and another number a set number who would be

Condemned it seems difficult to me to bring into the end of this that passage

It says that it's his will that that all you know, it's the second Peter chapter 2

Verse 9. I'm sorry Eight nine, right? Okay. Well, first of all in response to that particular citation you'll notice that in the

In the back of the book that I gave you on the subject of this issue. I addressed second

Peter 3 9 I'm sorry, it's not 2 9 3 9 that passage in the back appendix and in my response that is that Second Peter is written to those who have a faith of the same kind as ours second

Peter chapter 1 verse 1 Second Peter chapter 3 is in regards to the day of the Lord the parousia the coming of Christ and Peter is explaining

Why has the parousia the coming of Christ been delayed? Why has it not? Happened by now, and of course you have the passage about the scoffers mocking and so on so forth

Well, what is the purpose? Why has there been this delay? Why is there what people have called the church age which has now extended for nearly 2 ,000 years?

The purpose is God is gathering his elect people and when the we refer there to all

I believe when you look at what Peter Says and you start from the beginning of second Peter, you will see he's talking about all of his elect

He is gathering his people a peculiar people unto himself And that is why the parousia has been delayed and I'm certainly glad it has been delayed that long

Because if it hadn't happened then I then I myself would not be amongst the redeemed but the the question that I that I have for you again is

Biblically and and again understanding that I Recognize it'd be a whole lot easier for me not to believe these things

But I am under the authority of the Word of God and I find Jesus saying that no one is able to come to me

And you seem to say well, yes, that's true. God has to act first and in offering this plan

But Jesus didn't say God just simply offered a passive plan and now it's now everyone has been brought to a a neutral point

We're now it's sort of up to them as to whether they accept or reject Jesus didn't say that he said all that the father gives me will come to me that's sovereignty

It's not all the father gives me may come to me and there's nothing in the passage

It indicates when Jesus says all that the father gives me that means everyone in fact Jesus specifically distinguished between his sheep and he told

Jews the reason you do not hear the Word of God You are not of my sheep Now the point

I'm making is all the father gives me comes to me and Jesus said no one comes to me unless the father Who sent me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day

I don't I don't know whether you would identify yourself as a universalist or not. I doubt it I mean

Mormonism as a whole is not Universalistic even though it has some low tendency close

But I believe that the only There's only two directions to go with what Jesus says in John chapter 6 you need to say that all the father gives me should come to me is everybody and Hence in John chapter 6 when

Jesus says no one is able to come to me unless he is drawn by the father and you have To say everyone's drawn by the father and hence if you look at the grammar everyone's raised up at the last day

But the problem with that is it's very very plain in Jesus teaching that not everyone is raised up in the last day in the

Using it there because raised up the last day given eternal life are all coterminous in John chapter 6 and so Those that are drawn by the father are raised up by Jesus Christ and those are the same ones who are given by the father

To Jesus Christ. These are the ones that Paul talks about in Ephesians chapter 1 those that are predestined before the foundation of the earth so it's it's not a matter of Other being a passage here a passage there.

It's found Just consistently throughout But but there is another way of viewing these passages and what you have to do in my estimation is you have to Diminish the value of the teachings of Jesus and of Paul and so forth because those those teachings

End up just being as I was saying earlier It's just they're just acting out their part in the script because it has already been

Predetermined God has already numbered those who would be saved and those who would be damned and nothing's going to happen to change that And and yet I see throughout the scriptures a very strong responsibility being placed upon the individual

To live a certain kind of life to stop living one way and to start living another way as though the individual as though this had

Not been written in some script or a part of some program that is just running its course Well, the problem van is that you're creating a dichotomy that does not exist

And I think you're creating it on the basis of having and again, I would assert we've been very plain about this I was cert that in looking at these passages in looking at Paul's response in Romans 9 looking at Ephesians chapter 1

You lack the theology that underlies these statements in regards to predestination regards to the nature of God and so when

Paul says who are you a man to answer back to God and talks about the potter and the clay in Mormon theology when you have

Joseph Smith saying God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all You have absolutely no basis upon which to understand that statement

But I would say to you if you want to understand the reform perspective Remember that I believe that God is the eternal

God who created all things. He is my creator I came from his hand my every thought my every breath my every heartbeat is

Dependent upon his sustaining power and I have no basis upon which to question his sovereignty

I am a mere creature. I cannot question his sovereignty and when the scriptures say you are a redeemed person

This is what this is what a redeemed person is like a redeemed person has a new set of desires

Remember I talked about the will and remember this is very important because you were saying well We're just sort of acting out of play

The will of man acts upon the desires that his heart presents to him as you saw in my track

I believe that the Bible teaches that the desires presented by the fallen nature are evil Continually and hence man's will is enslaved in the sense that it only has one set of desires from which to choose

The redeemed man and you would ask you right before the the hour ended you had said well

Ephesians 5 doesn't make any sense because why would Paul preach against avoiding pitfalls if it's already been determined?

You're gonna fall into one or not fall into one again The point is the redeemed person his will now has two sets of desires presented to it

The the corrupt sinful desires from his nature as a fallen being but now as a new creation

He has desires presented to his heart that are godly unlike the natural man who has not been born again

That individual then is exhorted in Scripture to make the proper choice You may say well, but it's all been determined But the

Bible doesn't tell us how it has been and it's God's purpose to work out in this world our

Sanctification and how does he sanctify us? How does he make us like Christ? He does so by working in our lives by even having us learn from our failures learn from our sin

I can't tell you how many times in pastoral settings Individuals who have gone through a difficulty in their life are able to speak a word to someone who's now going to that Difficulty that someone else who hasn't gone through that could not say

Okay, you hear what you hear what I'm saying so I can have a purpose in in let's say

John Christian Has a drug problem He he has he has a difficulty with With cocaine.

All right Now you may say well What's the purpose in saying to John that he should not harm the temple of the

Holy Spirit? What's the purpose in talking about a holy life? Well, the purpose is very plain when

God heals this man when when repentance takes place in this man's heart It may be ten years down the road

But he very well may be the one individual through whom God can speak to another person and be the the

Christ The one showing Christ's spirit in that person's life We can't second -guess God in regards to what his purpose and I'm not trying to do that And I'm saying that from your perspective sure there's there's a purpose

God has written the script and it must be acted out precisely as he wrote it He has produced the program and the program must run exactly as God has produced the program and and what's the end of the program?

So so well The end of the program is that is that those who have been programmed in one in one way end up being blessed by God Throughout eternity and those who have been programmed in another way end up being condemned by God But the program runs and there there is no way of changing or altering the program

That's not even that's not even close to the end of the program because those are just simply incidental things the program and this is again again,

I must admit the reason that we can't have a Foundation upon which we both can stand here is because there's

I do not believe that there is a basis in Mormon theology for my next Statement, but the reason that God created Is the is the reason for the program and that reason is the demonstration of God's glory

The damnation of the wicked ten million years into eternity God will still be glorified by the damnation of the wicked and by the saving of the elect

Why this goes this goes to salvation by grace alone to faith and that is you know What how could

God be glorified in in someone being punished for eternity many people struggle with that concept?

I believe that one of the ways just one of the ways in which God will be glorified is that when you look at the redeemed

And their single -hearted devotion and love for God and I honestly believe I honestly believe in but the only way that I love

The God of which I speak is because God has enabled me to love him

I believe the Bible teaches that the natural man will hate the very things about God that I'm talking about In fact,

Jonathan Edwards said that's one of the best ways to determine Whether a person is redeemed or not

If you can have a test is There's a lot of religious people out there that were like certain aspects of God But there are certain aspects of God's truth about what he reveals by himself

But the natural man hates and detests the point is if I'm up there with the redeemed

Worshiping God ten to say ten million years into eternity and there's another person in hell staying on the brink of hell hating

God Detesting everything God has ever done. How's God glorified in that God is glorified in that And that the only thing that differentiates me from that individual is the grace of God I wasn't better I Was not superior.

I am NOT somehow of a neater person a better person a more moral person No The reason that I'm standing there loving

God and he's hating God has to do with the fact that here's what grace does grace Changes someone who would be staying there on the edge screaming at him into a person who loves him a rebel

Into one who like Isaiah falls on his face before the Holy God in Isaiah chapter 6 the only difference between Your loving

God and someone in hell hating God is God's will in the first place

God God has established that that this individual. I mean, he's established.

Of course, you're all gonna it's it's God's responsibility It's because of God's will and his eternal decree

That all the evil exists and and it's and I suppose maybe from your perspective

Maybe there is no such thing as evil. Maybe of course if everything is for God's glory

Ultimately, that is if it's ultimately for God's glory Then it would seem like you you've got an argument for saying well

There isn't really such a thing as evil if there is such a thing as evil Then God then God of course is the creator and the one responsible for the evil in the world

And it's an idea which which I simply can't accept going back to what you were saying earlier about guts

You're saying that we don't have any foundation in Mormonism to deal with With this particular idea that you're suggesting.

I would agree with you We don't in in the LDS concept the foundation the the purpose of God's action

Is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. That's not that's God's goal

And that's what I'm trying to do. They wouldn't just say it's anthropocentric. I I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily say that It's God is working out

He's working at his Accomplishing his will but the accomplishment of his will is to bring

Is to bring us willingly to Into his kingdom Willingly, you don't think that that I would believe that we are brought willingly into this

I think so But but what you're suggesting in a very different what you're saying is that the will the will that you have is the as God Has has put it into you.

He's put it into you willing So you're willing to accept it? I'm not willing to accept

The theology that you're that you accept and that was that is because of God's decree

And I would in order to go in order to go to accept that kind of thinking I would have to be dragged kicking and screaming.

I suppose to accept this kind of theology which which to me In my mind the means

God and it takes it takes out of the It simply undermines all of the things that I think the scriptures are about and that is morality and Henry and living

God's commandments upon our own choice and and having a real option as to whether we we

Obey God or whether we don't and I think that idea underlies Just thousands of scriptures passages in the

Bible Well, it would really take it would take a miracle van for it for you to believe this But that that miracle is what we're talking about.

You were asked earlier. Do you do you expect to save this man's soul? We think he's here to save yours

And and I wasn't asked that question I don't believe I can save anybody's soul, but I believe that when

God does that when regeneration takes place That it's a radical miracle and that it would involve your

Receiving the desire to love God as he is not as you would insist that he be

But as he truly is but it's no more a miracle than the position that I now have You know

I think I think it I think Again the term miracle has to do with how we see things working around us and the miracle is if you have a person who?

Is the natural man who is unable to do what is pleasing to God and I'm I haven't got an answer from you yet Whether you believe that or not

In regards to whether the natural man can do what is pleasing to God or not? I think it's a very very important question.

Maybe we can get to before the program But we really need to take some time We we but I will just quickly in just a in just one sentence answer you

I believe that man that the natural man has the capacity to do good and to do evil and I think that's a

View, which is widely supported by numerous scriptures in the Bible. Okay. Well, anyway, let's go to some calls

And we can get back to that in a minute, but before we You're on the air Hi Can you hear me

I just had a couple of questions, you know, it's interesting your guest's first name is what James James.

Yes. Is this Richard? Yeah, okay The question I have is he says that God is sovereign.

Is that correct? Yes, I do And how can you say? That Van Hal can't be saved.

I didn't say Van Hal can't be saved In fact, in fact, you said based on his fact that he's a

Mormon And that his theocracy is Mormonism, but there's no way he can be safe Okay, let me let me try clarify that in the first hour.

Yes He asked is he currently is he right now one of the redeemed and in fact, it's interesting

This gives me the opportunity to bring up the important point that I believe that Van can be saved and point of fact

I would say that if God was not sovereign and if God could not by his spirit break through The the most inveterate detestation of his truth that Dan would have no would have no possibility of being saved

But because I do believe what I believe that as Psalm 135 6 says in talking of God He says whatever the

Lord pleases he does in heaven and earth in the season and all deep If I didn't worship a God like that, believe me

I would not have just attended my 20th consecutive general conference and passing out tracks to the south and north gate or wherever I might

Be I all I said was in Response to Dan's question. Okay. This is what

I believe about God. I do believe that I'm one of the redeemed I said what you believe is not Christian truth, and I don't believe that a

Christian is going to believe that but that does not mean that God could not be working in Van's heart this very moment

To to convert him and to to change that to that perspective. So please don't get me wrong

Okay, I'm not saying that once you become a Mormon Let me make let me ask this question then what about the other

Four and a half billion people on the earth that are not reformed Christians What is their position in relationship to God?

Well, I did not limit salvation to reformed Christians I know many many people who are not even really familiar with what the term reformed refer to that are certainly

In the number of the elect in our and our redeemed, etc, etc But in regards to shall we say

Buddhists or or Islam or something like that again? I I go back to the

Bible and the Bible says that God has revealed the truth about himself Clearly enough that there can be no excuse on the part of men

And I also go back to the fact the Bible says there is only one way of salvation and that is in Jesus Christ And hence

I can only go with what the scripture says in regards to the fact that outside of Jesus Christ There is no salvation

On this earth has never heard of Christ never in Christianity never heard of the Bible Never heard of the

Old and New Testament or any of the writings thereof So what I'm saying is that you know within Mormon Church There is a doctrine that makes it possible for every single person that's ever lived that ever has lived or ever will to receive and to reset either to accept or reject

The gospel of Christ and and that makes perfect sense from the Mormon perspective because it is based upon Man's choice not

God's choice. Now if we have a chance to accept or reject the gospel of Christ, right?

That's what that's what I just said The the emphasis we don't have that that that van doesn't have the ability

You're saying that because then I mean you're okay, basically You're saying that there's no hope for van because man's already made a choice

What do you but but what I think James is saying is that whether I will be saved or whether I will be damned has long ago

In fact eternally been determined by God. Yes Predestination and that you don't have any freedom of choice or any free agency or any choice in this way

Well, like I said We affirm the concept of free will in the sense that men make choices depend upon the desires that are given to them

But that those choices are not something that is surprising to God that they are in fact part of God's decree and how the eternal and the temporal interface at that point is is

It's not something that we can even begin to understand being creatures at this point But that the scripture does affirm in Ephesians chapter 1 that the elect are predestined before the foundation of the earth

Not on the basis of God looking in the future and seeing if they're going to accept him But solely on the basis of his own will

You're saying all of the elect there isn't any there isn't any room for a sovereign God to say that this person

Has has lived a life like mother Teresa. How do you know that she was an elect person?

Well, first of all the way she's lived her life. Would you not agree? Even though she's not a Mormon or a reformed

Christian But there is a good chance that she's going to be saved by God well, first of all, you you put that into it into a

Status that does not have anything to do with what I believe and that is you you seem to have this idea that well

The number of the elect are fixed and hence God's freedom is taken away God is the one who freely fixed that and then you bring up an example some living

I'm saying there's no way he can fix the number if he's sovereign. Well, wait a minute that again coming from the

LDS perspective You you can't possibly Understand what I'm saying in regards to this particular subject because the fact that your

God Is is not infinite as my God is that is that your God exists within the realm of time?

That he has been exalted and that time itself is not his creation I think we can understand to understand that this is we can't accept it.

Well, and I Know I don't think I don't think you do

I don't think you do understand it because you you envision this you try to take this

You try to take that the doctrine of predestination Which is plainly taught in Scripture and you try to fit in with your perspective of God your

God can't predestine anything No, that's not true. Not not in the way that I'm talking about predestination Hey that Joseph Smith was foreordained to be a prophet that Noah was foreordained to be a prophet

You would also say that that Foreordination is something that could have been rejected by the individual that it fell upon.

Is that not the case? well, and I I see just ample evidence throughout scripture that That God that Jesus Jesus is teaching the people he presents his views

His directives to the people and he says you either live this way or you live that way To live one way is life to live.

The other way is death And and he's presenting that Paul in the passage of eyesight that I read from Ephesians chapter 5 is indicating the only way to make any sense out of that passage at all is that it is possible for someone to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and have and face some conflicts and some problems and to either

Live the commandments of God and be saved not live the commandments and and not be saved. No, there are options

No, it's Paul didn't say this is how you become saved He's talking to those who already were saved talking to those who are already saved and he's saying don't let anyone fool you

That's right to tell you that you can you can live a certain way exactly and be saved why because that type of lifestyle is completely

Contradictory to the redeemed that's already nature That's right has nothing to do with saying that if you are in fact chosen by God In fact,

Paul even says this to the Thessalonians look at what he says in 1st Thessalonians chapter 2

I'm sorry 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 13 in talking to the Christians He says but we should always give thanks to God for you

Brethren be loved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for what for salvation through sanctification

By the Spirit and faith in the truth. Notice what comes first God has chosen the

Thessalonians from the beginning for what for salvation how through Sanctification by the

Spirit and through faith in the truth even that faith itself comes after God's choosing of these individuals

I I I believe that That principle precisely I think that God has chosen for everyone to be saved.

That's his will. He wants everyone to be saved And and in those who like it is for a parent to want all of their children to become outstanding citizens and to be able to Do something that would be productive in society and to be a part of society

I don't think any parent wishes any of their children to be thugs to be part of gangs to be a murderer

Which is which fits perfectly with what I'm saying And that is that Christians are called that of course the

LDS believing that all people are children of God Jesus himself said to the Jews the reason you do not hear the

Word of God's you are not of my sheep You do not belong to God. You are not of those the Father has given unto the

Son But you said you keep saying just doesn't make sense. You go out and preach and some believe and some don't believe

That's exactly right. Look at that. Yeah, but that's not what I'm saying doesn't make sense That isn't what

I'm saying doesn't make sense because I see I see the sense in what what you're saying what Calvin's saying?

There's Calvin Calvin I think was quite a logical thinker and he start given a certain starting point

He logically followed things through to their logical conclusion. The starting point was wrong. Well, I think

I don't think so Because let me let me look at it in Acts chapter 13 Paul preaches the gospel

Now what happens when you preach the gospel? There are two reactions There are people who reject it and there are people who embrace it now some people seem to feel that that is just totally a

Chance event in the sense that it's totally up to man whether he does or does not embrace that gospel now

Please hear what I'm saying men believe or men disbelieve They take those actions, but upon what basis they take those actions in Acts chapter 13

We read these words and when the Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the

Lord And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

Now if you look at the grammar of the text if you look at it any way you can the appointment to eternal life in Acts 13 48 precedes belief and Yet it is put in the context of some believing while others are rejecting it

What is the difference between the two as Jesus put it no man can come to the father unless No man can come to me unless he is drawn by the father all that the father gives me will come to me and in John chapter 8 when he talks about about men he talks about you're doing the deeds of your father the devil and They go what do you talk about doing the deeds of your father verse 47 he who's of God Here's the words of God for this reason you do not hear them because you are not of God Now you see there's a major difference between your philosophy in mind

Okay my philosophy being a Mormon is the fact that I believe that everybody that came to this earth had the spirit of Christ with them and That those then hear the gospel

It is taught to them and they accept it if they choose to and they reject it if they choose To do what your plan is something like saying that you know, you're predestined to do whatever you're gonna do

It's almost like Satan's plan to whatever you know, go down there and force people to do that what they should be doing

Well, you know, I've already denied that of course and pointed out that no one is forced to do anything against their will at all But the will was created by God not the will when you say the will is created by God Yes, and the will remains free

It is the desires of the heart that are enslaved to sin because Jesus Jesus said in John chapter 8

I don't believe that anybody is born in sin And I don't believe I think that we are punished for our own sins and have anything to do with Adam's sin

Now this your do the reformed Christians believe that you're born under the sin of Adam Oh, yes Romans chapter 5 verse 12

Therefore justice in one man's sin entered into the world and death through sin and so death spread to all men

We we believe exactly what is taught in Romans chapter 5 or you were even born you'd already said

I was a transgressor. Yes Well, I know I know it's not a part of your belief

But it's interesting most of the objections to original sin the concept of the imputation of Adam's guilt to his offspring

Are based upon objections that would also destroy the gospel because the gospel teaches that God imputes

To his people the righteousness of Jesus Christ who died in their place if you object to the concept of imputation in regards to Adam's Transgression, then you at the very same time undercut the very imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ to his people

So the gospel teaches that God imputes to his people the righteousness of Jesus Christ who died in their place Which Paul parallels in Romans chapter 5 when he says but the free gift is not like the transgression first by the

Transgression of the one the many died much more did the grace of God and the gift of grace by the of the one man

Jesus Christ abound the many and If the gift is not like that which came to the one who sinned on the one hand the judgment arose from one

Transgression resulting in condemnation on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification

Where if by the transgression of the one and that's Adam death reigns through the one much more those who receive the abundance of grace

And of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the one Jesus Christ Definition of death or the definition of death meant do you think that it meant?

That it was a sinner. It's just the fact because Adam sinned he died He died a physical death both both because the

Bible says the Bible says Sin and suffered the physical death, but when I was born,

I do not believe that I had But you were spiritually dead No.

Oh, yes Ephesians chapter 2. Let me let me well Let me ask you why this doesn't apply to you Sir Ephesians chapter 2 says and you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you formally walked according to course this world

According to Prince the power of the air of the spirit that is now working the sons of disobedience among them We too all formerly lived in the lust of our flesh indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature children of wrath

Even as the rest that is the universal condition of man Romans chapter 3 verses 10 through 18

Concludes all men are under sin. How can that be? I mean I I have had met you maybe one of those

I have had LDS people say to me. Oh, no I've I've heard one of the prophets say that he knew a perfect man

And and I remember very very plainly a Mormon bishop Just just getting all bent out of shape when

I quoted Romans 3 23 to him for all his sin And he said are you saying that I have sinned and I said, yes, sir

I am saying how dare you what hypocrisy sounds like he was very very upset with me Ask you one other question.

Just I'm trying to find out what your background is. Mm -hmm Do you believe in the Trinity? How do you how does your how does the reformed persons?

Oh, yes, okay believe that Christ God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one one what there's three separate person

Well, we could really go off on a base that buddy. Let's avoid that question because that's you know

We'll talk about that another time I mean, you know The definition of that makes a major difference on how you interpret is it's been concerning Christ Well, I'll just very very very between God and I'll very very quickly say that if you're familiar with the doctrine of Trinity You know that it affirms that there is one being of God shared by three persons

The father son the spirit the father is not the son. The son is not the spirit. The spirit is not the father

Three persons sharing one being that is God And so if that helps you understand that a lot of LDS people think that we are modalist that we believe that the father is

The son or something like that But I think that's as far as I'm like take that particular question. Okay.

Thank you caller And we're going to move along a little bit. We've got Let me give our phone numbers again, we have two six three eight two five five for the

Salt Lake Lions again That's two six three Talk two six three eight two five five

Ogden North Davis is six seven zero five eight five five and Provo is four seven zero five eight five five

Okay, let's go to another caller you're on the air That's first of all, they don't offend someone with what

I have to say there might be with me One of the things that you guys have talked about in the poster

Arguments was of course with the LDS church And I I was taught from my early childhood

Adam I was actually Fundamentalist part of the church where a lot of the teachings that are not necessarily a public thing right now

We're taught and Adam was a resurrected being that eternal life in the physical

He came down this earth Himself in that position in effort that we might have bodies and this was a view of course.

It was taught to a lot of the different church Thoughts in the early years and it was written in the journals of discourses although this

Adam God doctrine or the doctrine itself taught that that Adam was a being who came down and It took on the effort to become a god or to become the father of us

So they're here on this earth and therefore that was this God And if there's the journals of course still portray it and I have a lot of stuff that's written in the journals of discourse

Which is they still published and sold by the church So the general sense the church not emphasize it but yet The information is still available on on that level

That portrays that yes We are in the making of gods and that Adam was the

God in the effort to come down and so I kind of wanted to relate that I'm That I felt like this church subject each one that they actually did have a lot of noise of what of what

James was saying Okay, I That's kind of taking us off in another direction, but okay

And I also had a couple other things and I feel like I'm just like I'm just talking other than actually in a conversation

That's fine. Well, I waited I sat down the road down a couple things and One of the things that James had is that you know, we create out of nowhere

And I've done a lot of studying myself the same thing and in the sense What he's saying is in a lot of sense is actually true and this is kind of what

I Kind of explain that explain it where each of us are like Christ in the making and that The Spirit of God trying to teach us of course what

Jesus Christ understood So if we were to become like Christ or or be saved in this name would be

Christ. Okay Then we would He'd have to learn we'd have to be able to know the knowledge that he had and Do you mind if I interact with that?

well, I Believe that God is conforming us to the image of Christ not to Make us

Christ but because Jesus Christ being the very image of the

Father demonstrating what the Father is like to be like Christ is to Is to be sanctified is to is to be an individual who brings glory to God in the fullest way

I I believe the Bible very plainly does teach that God is the creator of all things and that he does

When you say create out of nowhere I think that the main affirmation of what we were saying earlier in regards to what's technically known as creatio ex in the helo creation

Literally, that means out of nothing, but it might be better to to phrase it creation into nothing. That is that God is not dependent upon Previously created matter it's extremely important because we believe that God is eternal

That God has always been and that there is nothing that precedes God everything that exists does so at God's Command at God's will and there is nothing superior to God something pre -existed

God being God That thing is in point of fact Antecedent to God and God must in some way be dependent upon that thing which pre -existed him in Mormon theology

For example God is God Because the power of the priesthood and hence obviously the power of the priesthood precedes

God being God because it was through the power of the priesthood. He gained exaltation that point I believe that the

Bible is very very plain when when God says in Isaiah 44 24 and when I speaking of God I'm speaking of Jehovah Elohim here that the

Old Testament phraseology. I realize Many Mormons, especially those who have not done the historical reading to recognize that The LDS terminology in regards to Jehovah Elohim has changed

Joseph Smith's usage differs from a more codified usage that most LDS people today would embrace

But Jehovah says in Isaiah 44 24 that says Jehovah your Redeemer the one who formed you from the womb that is referring

Primarily, of course in this context to the people of Israel totally but that is applied to individual human beings as well

I Jehovah am the maker of all things Stretching out the heavens by myself and spreading out the earth all alone

And he might not say well, it doesn't technically say creatio ex nihilo But the point is that God is is unique and alone.

He is not accompanied by anyone else He is not dependent upon anyone else in his creative action.

This this concept is repeated in many different ways throughout Isaiah And I you know, some people say well

Yeah You guys sit there in Isaiah all day long as if there was nothing else in the Bible The 40th to the 50th chapters of Isaiah are extremely important regards to the nature of God because it is in these passages that God challenges the false gods of men

To demonstrate their God ship and in and when you challenge somebody to demonstrate that they're like you What that allows you to do is to bring out unique things about yourself

If someone's someone's called and say I'm really James White the guy on the air is an imposter Well, how would

I prove that? Well, I would challenge an individual to do unique things to know unique things about me

Well what God does in Isaiah is he brings out things that are unique to the divine nature that only

God can do that false God can't do and in so doing reveals things to us about God And one of those things is that he is the creator of time that he is not dependent upon any previous things

He's the creator of all things. He upholds all things. I think that's extremely important because obviously from my perspective

I honestly believe that this is very contradictory To modern LDS belief and it's certainly contradictory to Joseph Smith at the end of his life in the

King Follett funeral discourse Though I think in the earlier period of Joseph Smith's life at the time of the writing the

Book of Mormon It there's obviously see a vast difference between the beliefs that he had then and the belief that he had in 1844 when he died

Yeah, I can just hear you're saying One of the points you brought up of course is that he's the creator alone and I feel like that each of us are joined here and That we when we get in harmony or become balanced with his understanding and knowledge

Which is what I kind of had to portray with Jesus Christ when we become in balance with a balance with what he is

And we too become creators in his in his His kingdom creating equally they're not equally but treating

Making creations of course his creations is so much that so much bigger much larger. We become small perspectives of creations like well then

We're gonna get cut off in about 50 seconds here because the nine o 'clock's coming up But I would just simply say to you that I don't believe that God created us to be creators

There's only one creator and I don't think that there's room for any other creators When you create a picture in your mind, that's the creation when you go and write it and draw it down on a piece of paper

That's the creation. Well, actually every day. Well, well, we disagree with the term creator there

I understand how you're using it But I wouldn't use it in that term and I think that the purpose for which

God created us was not to be creators but to For the elect to give glory and honor to God and to have us when you said in harmony

I would say to be justified by faith in Jesus Christ to have peace with God as Romans 5 1 says

Don't have time we've got to go to news right now, but we will be back our next hour and take calls

This is the original talk radio KTK K Sandy Salt Lake, Ogden, Provo This is your host

Van Hale, with me is James White who is director of Alpha and Omega Ministries And we have been discussing the

The top the differences between the reformed theology and I'm just going to say my theology which comes out of Mormonism I think there might be some latter -day saints who would not want to claim me as a representative of their point of view, and that's perfectly fine, but I hope

I haven't gone too far afield at this point from what most

Latter -day Saints would acknowledge as being the basics of what we have believed in and the differences between Reformed theology and LDS theology.

I think, hopefully, it's been fairly clear, and it's been clear because we haven't been beating each other over the head with, you haven't hit me with a quad yet,

I haven't hit you with a King James, these are important issues, and the thing

I appreciate, Van, about our conversations is that we've sat here, and we've basically said the other one is really wrong, okay, and we're talking lost as a goose here, but some people just automatically allow emotion to become so intense at that point that they can't continue the conversation, and I think you know that I believe that, and that I really do care about what happens to you, and hopefully the reverse is true, but it's just a shame that so often when these important issues come up, people can't discuss them without trying to rip each other's faces off or getting into a sumo wrestling hold in the process.

Yeah, but I have personally chosen to care about you. Well, I have too, because God placed that desire in my heart.

Yeah, and God is responsible for that in yours, and you have no choice, you have to care about me.

Well, it won't make one which difference in my end, eternal punishment in hell for my unwillingness to accept some of these, what

I consider to be false and bizarre doctrines. It's not a matter of accepting quote unquote false and bizarre doctrines,

I think it's a matter of worshipping God as he is, but it's interesting when you say, well, you've freely chosen to do that.

I'll be very straightforward and honest in saying that I depend upon God's spirit to place in my heart a love for others, because I know my heart well enough to know that there are a lot of people

I would not love if God by his spirit did not shed a broad love of Christ in my heart. I just know that I wouldn't do that,

I know that I would be incapable in and of myself of loving God the way that I should. That's my biggest objection to Roni 1032.

My biggest objection to Roni 1032 is this idea of you rid yourself of all ungodliness, you love

God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, then is the grace of Christ sufficient for you. I say to you, I confess before the whole audience,

I know my heart, and outside of the grace of Christ being sufficient for me first, I would never be able to even desire to rid myself of all ungodliness, let alone do it, and I certainly could not love

God the way that he truly is without that happening. But you know, here we are, immediately in post haste breaking all of our promises to do,

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to do that. It's okay, because I'm going to have my own free will and choice.

I'm going to break this a little bit further by, I'm thinking of a great artist that produced this masterpiece, and I'm interested in having this masterpiece.

There's absolutely nothing that I could do to earn that.

There's nothing I could do to earn it. But that does not preclude the painter of this masterpiece from setting some conditions upon which he will give to me this thing which

I could never earn. And I think that's an analogy to some extent of what

I feel is the thinking within the LDS Church. There is no way for us to keep enough commandments to earn

God's salvation. That's a masterpiece which he has done. We cannot earn it.

But God has set some conditions upon which he will extend this to us, and the condition is upon how we live our lives, how we conduct our lives.

Can I use the same analogy? You can use the same analogy to give you a different perspective. Same analogy.

You, while you were alive, hated the masterpiece that this artist has created.

You're now dead. The artist, and this is where the analogy breaks down, but the artist is able to not only bring you back to life, but he's able to cause you to love the masterpiece and also provide it to you without any cost upon your part at all.

And the difference, I think, again goes back to, I believe, as Scripture states, that man is dead in sin.

It's like saying to Lazarus, Lazarus, look at this masterpiece out here. Lazarus, isn't it gorgeous?

Wouldn't you like it? But Lord, he stinketh. He's dead. He is spiritually dead.

And there is nothing, you know, I honestly feel that you're talking about how you feel my perspective denigrates

God. I think it really denigrates God. Really what we're saying is that the

Scripture says men are dead. What you've got is God's going through a graveyard. Here is eternal life. All you've got to do is get yourself up out of the grave to take it.

Men are dead. They have to be regenerated. And the only way that they can be regenerated is by God's sovereign action. I'm not denying that concept.

But going back to the very foundational difference between your point of view and my point of view would be this, and that is that there is something innate and uncreated in man.

And I have no way of defining that. It hasn't really been defined in LDS theology at this point.

But there is some aspect of us which is innate and which has an effect upon our will.

And we have the capacity to go one way or to go another way. And it's

God's eternal purpose. It's His will and it's His desire to influence as many as will accept the laws of His kingdom to come and accept the laws and participate in His kingdom as we find in the parable of the prodigal son.

But in the parable of the prodigal son, he's part of the kingdom. He's part of the father's kingdom.

But he still has the capacity to make the choice to take his inheritance and leave.

And he goes and squanders it on what right of living we are told. And then eventually he sees the problem of all of that and he comes back.

And the father accepts him back into the kingdom. Can I respond to your statement that you believe, and this is the second time you've said it, that God's purpose is that men have this innate, uncreated ability to yes or no.

Would you say it's almost a moral neutrality? No, I wouldn't say it's anything like that. I think

God knows we have some innate tendencies and propensities and things of that sort.

And each individual is different. I don't think it's... You don't feel that it's a part of a fallen humanity? Well, I think there is.

I do believe in the idea of a fallen humanity and that by taking upon ourselves mortality from an

LDS perspective, we are taking upon ourselves something that puts us as a little child and we've got to deal with a whole new circumstance, a whole new situation and learn how to deal with this corporeal and material aspect of our being that we are taking upon ourselves.

And in doing that, we encounter all kinds of situations and lusts and desires and so forth that we're not equipped to deal with.

That doesn't automatically make you an enemy of God? It depends on the context.

I would say that in a context, just the natural man is an enemy to God in a general context.

But I don't believe that we have lost the capacity to make a choice, to actually on a day -to -day basis make a choice to commit a sin or not commit a sin.

I think what our actions do make it more and more difficult for us to act in one way rather than another, but we have not lost, even by being descendants of Adam and participating in the fall, we have not lost the capacity to, whether we're

Christian or non -Christian, we still have the ability to make some choices that are better than other choices.

Okay. I'll make this real short. I'm going to let you have the last word on this and then we're going to call it no matter what.

In regards to this concept of depravity, to use men's words, I noted this just today and I wanted to read it for you.

What it does mean, according to this particular writer, this is Hodge, that virtue consisting in the conformity of the dispositions of the will with the law of God and the very soul of virtue consisting in the allegiance of the soul to God, every man by nature is totally alienated in his governing disposition from God and consequently every act, whether morally indifferent or conformed to subordinate principles of right, is vitiated by the condition of the agent as a rebel.

In other words, I am not saying that Buddhists don't go out and do what men would call good things, but the doctrine from my perspective is saying that that is still a rebel who is doing it.

I think Paul's words are found in Romans 8, and this is the passage I said I hope we had time to. I'd like to get your response to it if we can sometime this evening.

Paul said that there are two kinds of people, those who are according to the flesh and those who are according to the spirit.

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the spirit, the things of the spirit.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so.

And those who are in the flesh cannot please God, Romans 8.

Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Now how does one go from being in the flesh to being in the spirit?

Well, that's not an act of an autonomous will. Well, I'll take that back. It is the act of an autonomous will.

The only autonomous will there is, and that's God. Okay, rather than respond to that at the moment,

I'm going to hold true to my last statement. We're going to go to a caller. You're on the air. Hi, it's interesting to see two people disagree about religion and be so well behaved about it.

Generally around the world people kill each other for differing views about religion.

Well, we've both accepted that the other one is lost and there's no hope, so we can just sit here.

Oh no, there's still hope. We can just... Well, what I would like to say is both of you are totally wrong.

I was going to comment briefly on the conference before, I'll try to make that quick.

It's interesting how the Mormon... I didn't listen to the whole thing, I just listened to four speeches, and I was just totally disgusted by it.

It's interesting how the Mormon Church now seems to be totally emphasizing Jesus Christ, not saying a whole lot about Joseph Smith or the angels or the grasshoppers or whatever it is that's in the

Mormon religion. They're all basically dropping all the weird stuff and sticking to mainline

Jesus Christ stuff, basically to make themselves more acceptable. I was totally disgusted by...

That's nonsense, but go on. Well, yeah, I was totally disgusted by the Apostle Oaks, I forget his first name, on his speech about siding there.

That was just incredible. If anybody has a transcript of that, they should read that again and use a little bit of logic and common sense and seeing that these guys are just after the money.

I think it's well known that the Mormon Church brings in $12 million a day.

How would anyone know that? The Church doesn't divulge that. Yeah, well, that's what the...

How is that common knowledge? Well, that was the Arizona paper that did that study.

But they didn't know. They're only making an estimate. How are you going to get that information? Well, he doesn't have access to all the paperwork.

No, he didn't. They didn't. Well, okay. Yeah, basically you guys are just totally wrong, both of you.

The Bible is just full of absurdities, contradictions, and stuff like that. So is the

Book of Mormon. Why do you use all your logic? Why do you waste all the logic that you've been using for the past two hours on this kind of stuff?

Well, Francois, let me ask you something. Are you a logical person? I believe

I am, yeah. You follow the laws of logic, modus ponens, modus tollens, all that stuff?

Oh, well, I didn't quite hear the last part, but... Well, those are some of the laws of logic. I'm an aerospace engineer, and I've been very successful at that.

And I feel that since we've put a man on the moon using logic, it's probably a good model to follow.

Francois, where did the laws of logic come from? Well, some of them,

I believe, came from the Greeks. Well, where did the Greeks get them? Well, some of them just thought them out.

Some of them were wrong. Some of them got disproved. Are you saying the laws of logic are just men's creations?

Of course. So they're just men's creations? Of course. So is the Bible. So they're not universal?

Well, what do you mean they're not universal? Well, it just seems to me that you're saying that we are somehow not using the laws of logic.

And I'm just asking you to tell me, well, where do these laws of logic come from? If you're an aerospace engineer, then you know that tomorrow, when you go to work, you're going to use certain constants in regards to, for example, drag, lift, coefficients, and stuff like that, right?

Yep. Okay. Are they going to change tomorrow? You're going to have to redo all the studies? No, they're not. Why not?

Because they're constants. That's why we call them constants. Okay, so the fact that they're constants means that they stay the same.

Why do they stay the same? Well, okay, you're talking about laws of logic and physical constants.

That's two different things here. Well, but the point of it, you seem to believe that the laws of logic provide you the basis upon which you can evaluate everything.

And I'd like to suggest to you, Francois, that, first of all, to think as you do, you are having to borrow from my theistic system.

And that is, I do not believe that you can come up with a logical explanation for why tomorrow will be like today.

You've got to assume it. And without engaging in the use of brute argumentation, that is just simply saying, well, that's just the way it is.

In other words, not being able to have an explanation. Scientists have to make assumptions and stuff like that all the time.

But what I'm trying to tell you is the Bible and the Book of Mormon, both of them, both of which you're arguing each other about, are full of illogical and inconsistencies.

Well, Francois, I can guarantee you I've encountered so many alleged contradictions and allegations that it's, believe me,

I've talked to many, many atheists before. But my point is that you don't, if you're logical, then you need to look back at the foundation upon which you're starting from.

And I would like to submit to you that you are, in a point of fact, borrowing my theism to even have a logical argument against my theism.

You say that we're being illogical. I'd like to submit to you that you've got to look at your starting point.

And with your starting point, sure, you can come up with the alleged problems in any theistic system from your starting point.

But my question is, are you really able to examine what your starting point is? I can't tell you who came up with 1 plus 1, and neither can you, okay?

Oh, I believe, hey, I believe I can. Now, I don't know if the Mormon would agree with me, but I say to you that the laws of logic, the laws of reasoning, the excluded middle, the law of non -contradiction and everything else, is the creation of God.

That's how God made this universe, and that's the way it is. That's what you think. You can't prove that to me. Now, interesting proof.

Now, we're going a little bit off topic, I'm sorry. No, wait a minute. I have a much better book for both of you, okay?

It's a book that's been published in Salt Lake City. It's a book that has extremely valuable information about, you know, the way people should lead their lives, about personal effectiveness, business and leadership.

There's a huge number of bibliographies, very short, two -page bibliographies that are very, very interesting.

I could not find anything in that book that, to me, was contradictory. Everything's logical, lots of quotes and anecdotes and just great stuff.

Much better than the Bible. I think people should probably live by that book much more so than the

Bible. Do you care to hear what the title is? Let's hear the title. It's a great

American bathroom book. Okay, that's great. Well, Francois, could I do something?

Van, I'd like to offer Francois something, if you would. If you'd like to contact Alpha and Omega Ministries, I would like to send you a copy of a debate between an atheist,

Dr. Gordon Stein, who you may have heard of before. He is the editor of the Encyclopedia of Unbelief, and Dr.

Greg Bonson, a Christian theist, on the existence of God. Since it's a little bit off our topic this evening,

I'd like to offer to send that to you, Francois, if I can give you my mailing address. If you can drop me a line,

I'll be at Alpha and Omega Ministries. You can contact us at Post Office Box 47041,

Phoenix, Arizona. The zip code there is 85068. I want to ask you just one question.

If we go to the very foundation of religion, the reason why

James and myself are sitting here having this discussion, and the reason you're calling, is because of the fact of existence.

Our existence, the existence of the universe. Well, sure, I know you exist, and so do I, but that doesn't have anything to do with God.

Let me ask you this question, though, and then I want you to explain it. Use your logic to elucidate this so that we don't need to resort to religion to answer the question.

And that is, how? Why? When? How is it that we exist?

And how are you going to demonstrate this through logic? Well, you exist because your father and mother had sex and you were born.

I'm not talking, you're missing the point, I'm talking about the totality of existence, the universe.

Where did it come from? When? Why? Science has some very good explanations as to what the origins of the...

Okay, give us the explanation and the logic. Demonstrate it to us with some logic. See, there's simply no way to do it.

I'm putting you on the spot because I'm asking you to do something that absolutely can't be done. There's some very good theories as to how everything began, okay?

Now, science is not claiming certainty, but you religious people are, and yet you don't know any more than I do.

No, Francois, let me suggest something to you. You are just as religious as I am. Of course not.

You are just as religious as I am. I can change my mind if a better theory comes up.

So can I. I most certainly can. But my point, Francois, is that you are not without religion.

You have a faith, for example, what you just said about science. You have a faith in science. Faithism is the absence of religion.

I don't think that's even an honest answer, Francois. But anyways, I'll be glad to send that material through if you'd like.

Yep. Okay, great. Thank you. Bye. Okay, let's get another caller. Let me give our numbers again.

We have about 30 minutes remaining. And our Salt Lake line is 2638255.

Ogden, North Davis is 670 -5855. And Provo, 470 -5855.

So give us a call if you'd like to join in on this discussion. All right, you're on the air.

Hello? Yes, go ahead. Yes, hello, Van James. I have a question for James. He seems to be jumping around from scripture to scripture.

He obviously doesn't understand the true meaning of the passage if you just quote it. I don't want to get into it too much because we don't have much time here.

But, for example, we bring up a passage, 2 Corinthians 5 .14 -15.

He seems to deny that Christ has died for all people, but he's only died for a few people who were pre -selected before the earth was created.

And this predicts their passage along with Romans 5 .14. Actually, the whole first section of Romans 5 talks about the justification that we have because we were not exactly foreordained the way he describes it.

We were basically chosen as all free agents to be the recipients of Christ atonement.

This is the passage in 2 Corinthians. In 2 Corinthians 15 it says that he died for all, not just for the select or for the people who were foreordained, but he died for all people.

And he seems to deny the fact that he skips around from one scripture to the next and then back and forth, and he ignores the hundreds of passages that just completely deny his essence.

And the things that you were talking about, Van, he seems to feel that those are justified by his particular interpretations of these selected passages.

I've got to go. I've got an appointment to rush to, but I'll wait and hear the answer.

Point by point, if Alan would like to contact Alpha Omega Ministries, I've written a book on this subject entitled

God's Sovereign Grace that is much more systematic than you can be in a radio program, and I can assure Alan that I am very familiar with the vast majority of the objections to my position.

It's interesting that Alan brought up an issue that I had not brought up. He is accurate in my understanding of the fact that Christ died for the elect, specifically to bring about their salvation, but it's interesting that he brings that up in the context of accusing me of hopping around when

I had never even addressed the issue. So I just simply can... It's hard for me to say how to respond to his allegation that I'm ignoring their context or don't know what they mean, because Alan didn't bring up Romans Chapter 8 that I just quoted to you.

He didn't bring up Romans Chapter 9 or any of the passages that I actually raised. So I don't know what to say about that.

I'll very briefly respond to his comments in regards to 2 Corinthians Chapter 5, and that is in regards to the term all.

I think this is the same use of the term all that you find in Romans Chapter 5 when it talks about all those who are in Christ and all those who are in Adam, the same use that Paul uses of the term all in 1

Timothy Chapter 2 when he talks about the prayers he made for all men, that it's

God's will that all be saved. In the very same passage he then talks about the mediatorship of Christ and the fact that Christ is a mediator between God and men, and it's very plain that what he means there is not all individual men.

In fact, it would be interesting to ask him, even though he didn't have an opportunity of sticking around, if he believes that Christ intercedes for those who will, in fact, be lost.

There are a lot of people who would at first say, well, yes, Christ is interceding on behalf of all men, but then upon thinking about that, do you mean to say that Christ intercedes on behalf of men who will be lost because that then makes

Christ's intercession of no avail or at least less powerful than the free will choices of men?

I've written a book that somewhat deals with this. I do deal with this some in God's sovereign grace, but also my first book, in fact,

Dan, I don't know if you've ever seen it. The first book that I ever wrote is actually on the doctrine of the mass and purgatory as a

Protestant writing against the Roman Catholic understandings of those, and it's entitled The Fatal Flaw, and I'm not sure if you've seen it, but it deals with the subject of the atonement of Christ rather extensively, both his intercessory work, 2

Corinthians 5, and numerous pastors like that. But anyway, so just a brief response to what he had to say there because he didn't bring up any of the passages that I actually had raised to substantiate the allegation of just popping around.

Down in Phoenix, we call those drive -bys. However, in your comment, you're saying then that Jesus died.

It's your position, you're thinking that Jesus died only for those who will be redeemed.

Yes. And so he did not die for all mankind. And those who on a day like today, being

Easter, who are not going to be redeemed, it's kind of futile and worthless for them to be thinking in terms of Christ's resurrection

If they're thinking in terms of Christ's resurrection, then they're probably of the elect, at least as far as truly the true

Jesus Christ. And of course, we've gone around about this before. But my whole point is based upon what was the intention of the atonement.

Why did Christ die? In Luke 19 .10, for the Son of Man came to seek and save that which was lost, not simply make a theoretical salvation available to them.

It's interesting, people will object to what is technically called limited atonement, and yet almost everyone believes in it.

I believe that Christ died for the elect, and hence I limit the scope of the atonement. I do not, however, limit the effect of the atonement, which is what most other people do.

What most other people do is say, well, Christ died for everyone, but the atonement does not actually save anyone.

It makes salvation theoretically possible, but it does not actually save anyone.

In the book of Hebrews, it is said that Jesus Christ entered into the Holy of Holies, having obtained eternal redemption.

Not having made it a theoretical possibility, but having obtained eternal redemption. When you look at the

Bible and it talks about who Christ died for, who are the ones that are listed in the

New Testament in regards to who Christ died for? He died for his friends, John chapter 15.

He died for the church, Isaiah 53. When it talks about that, by his knowledge, my righteous servant will justify many, as he will bear their iniquities.

Jesus said, I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Just as the Father knows me, and I know the

Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And yet we know that Jesus said to the Jews, you are not of my sheep. Some of the

Jews, not all of the Jews. And so there's many indications of this throughout the scripture. But my whole point in responding to Alan was,

I hadn't even had a chance to address that. Prior to this point. Okay. Well, looking at 1

Corinthians 15, and I'm sure that you've looked at this a number of times, but the whole chapter is of interest in this respect.

But, for example, in verse 3 it says, I passed on to you what I received, what is of the greatest importance, that Christ died for our sins, as written in the scriptures.

And so when Paul is saying, he died for our sins, He's speaking to Christians.

Well, he's speaking to members of the church. Right. Which may or may not be saved.

And he's not. Well, he's not. As he brings out in almost every one of his epistles, the possibility of those who are in the church not being saved, the possibility and the likelihood of a number of them not being saved, he brings out in the

Ephesians passage I quoted to you, in Galatians chapter 5, in Corinthians chapter, well, in fact, a number of places throughout

Corinthians. So when he's saying here, you would have to, I would imagine, interpret when he says that he died for our sins, that Paul is making reference only to those who will actually be saved, not the people to whom he's actually writing.

Well, I think he's speaking the same way he did in Ephesians chapter 5, like you brought out, which is one of the passages I would utilize, where it says,

Husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for, who?

Her, the church, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, with the point being that Christ gave himself up for the church.

And I don't see, you know, when we proclaim the gospel, I don't know who is, you know, people ask, well, if you believe these things, then how do you proclaim the gospel?

As if I have to somehow, God has to come down and put signs around people's neck, and on the back it says elect, on the back it says non -elect, and I sit there and decide who

I'm going to share the gospel with on the basis of that. I don't know. I don't know, and therefore, that's why this is my 20th consecutive conference, because I honestly believe, and believe me, some of my compatriots believe that I'm sillier than can be to come up here.

Yeah, but see, what you're doing, the reason you're coming up here is not because of what you believe. Excuse me?

It's because of the fact that God had decreed from before the creation that you would do this, that this would be your 20th time.

And it is also equally true that the reason I come up here is because of what I believe.

You see, you want to make a dichotomy and say it has to be one or the other. I say it's both. No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying, but the reason. You can say, okay, well, the subsequent reason is that God placed, you know, it's not your desire.

God placed the desire in you. It's just part of the program, part of the program. Wouldn't you say, though, that seems to be something you keep coming back to, and yet, like I said,

I pointed out the crucifixion of Christ. Why did they do that?

Are you saying Pilate didn't want to do what he did? That Caiaphas didn't want to do what he did?

No, he did do what he wanted to do. And in that context, if you were back then and you spoke to Caiaphas, the only basis upon which you can speak to Caiaphas is his desires.

You don't have a blueprint of eternity. You're not an eternal. That's right, and I don't have a blueprint, but I don't believe that there is that kind of blueprint.

I don't think it was that Herod was simply carrying out a decree of God.

I don't think that's what it was. I think the plan was, I believe that the plan of God was that he would send his son into the world and that he would suffer death for mankind, but that it would be that Herod, without any choice on his own, that Herod, without any choice on his own, that God prepared him and set up the circumstances so that he would do that.

I just simply don't believe that. And I don't believe that either, since I've never once said that Herod, without a choice of his own, did that.

But what I have said is that Herod's choice was a choice that Herod made, and hence he's responsible for it.

He can't be responsible for it. That's the way God created him. He holds us responsible for the choices we make within this realm, just because this realm is not the only realm there is.

Just because the realm of time is not the only realm there is, the eternal realm does not dictate the fact that this is here. And again, if you believe that,

Van, then what does verse 28 say? To do whatever thy hand and thy purpose predestine to occur.

What is Luke saying in Acts 4 .28 when he says, verse 27, They were gathered together against thy holy servant,

Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever thy hand and thy purpose predestine to occur.

What does that mean? Well, I believe that. I believe that it was predestined. But you're taking the predestination down to the individual level, which

I don't believe. The passage does it. The passage says, Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the

Gentiles and the peoples of Israel. And in fact, if you'd like, I will look at the verb here.

I'll bet you dollars you've done it. It's plural. Well, the point that I'm making is that you're going beyond what the passage is saying and saying that this was

Herod's choice. That he had the choice of the matter. Herod chose to do what he did, but his choice was because of the decree of God.

That's right. God's free choice on his part. Well, how can it be a free choice? That's the rub where you encounter

God's eternal decree and our existence in time. And again, without a

God who exists outside the realm of time, there's no way you can understand that. Well, you can't understand it anyway. I mean, you can't understand it.

The way to understand it, I think, in our technical age is through the computer, through the concept of the computer.

I don't think computers aren't personal. Someone writes, yeah, they are, PCs. You take somebody, you take

Aldous, who's written the PageMaker program. The program's all written.

There's only one thing that can happen. You push the button, only one thing can happen. Oh, don't give me that.

There's only one thing that can happen. Everybody we know knows that you can press a button. They can do something that even

Aldous didn't think it would do. I'm speaking theoretically. They've created it in such a way.

I mean, every time I hit the button for PageMaker on my computer, every time that I've done it so far, a certain sequence of events happens.

Now, if I were the producer, if I were the creator of that program, how can

I reasonably condemn that program for not producing a spreadsheet for me? That's not the way that I programmed it.

And you see what the difference is here, then? I see exactly what the difference is. You see, you've just gone back to Romans 9 .19,

and you've just said, no, I don't accept that this predestination goes to the personal level, and yet the very example that brings out the objection to Romans 9 .19

is Pharaoh, personal, an individual who experiences this.

Romans 9 .18, So then he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires. You will say to me, then, why does he still find fault?

And I can simply say to you, your analogy of a computer program doesn't work because it's not personal, and we are personal, and Jesus Christ didn't die for a computer program.

Well, but we are, I don't see the difference between us and a computer program. We were created, we were created with only one set of decisions that we can ever make.

We have absolutely no capacity to make a decision that God had not predetermined and foreordained for us to make.

In the realm of time, we don't see that, we don't experience that. Oh, yes, it does matter because that is the basis upon which

God judges us then. We are not judged upon a basis that is outside of what we can even see.

We are judged, my decision, if I made a decision right now to reach across the table here and pop you on, which you're too far away to do it anyway, but if I made that decision, yes, now looking back in time,

I can certainly see how God did that. But right now, I don't see that. As a matter of fact, I even designed a little box that I designed that you can pull a thing out, there's a mirror in there, and it illustrates the difference between a perspective of seeing things in time and a thing of God's perspective.

When I said, do you see what the difference between us is, yes, we have differences in regards to disbelief and so on and so forth and who

God is and all the rest of that stuff. But what I'm saying to you, Van, is I honestly believe that Romans chapter 9 says what

I'm saying. Ken, I don't think, I think this. If it does, if in fact it does say what you're saying, and okay, a lot of people have read it that way and take it that way, a lot haven't.

But even if it is, my argument would be that the overwhelming weight of evidence from the scripture, the passages simply end up without any meaning if you're taking the position that Paul instructing people,

Jesus instructing people, people who are not Christians, people who, I mean,

Jesus isn't talking to Christians. He's talking to Jews principally. And the instruction that he's giving, the requisites that he's laying down for salvation have to do with how a person lives his life.

And it seems absolutely absurd to me to think in terms of an individual being condemned,

Jesus preaching to somebody, saying you have to live this kind of life, this is the kind of life you must live to stand in favor with God and to be a recipient of salvation, when

Jesus, when it simply is not possible for that person ever to live that kind of life because God created him with a different capacity, a capacity that was not capable of living that kind of life.

No, God didn't create him that way. He fell in Adam's way that way. And you say, well, God's still responsible for that. Yeah, he's responsible for joining us to Jesus Christ so we can have his righteousness, too.

God is responsible for that. But don't say that, well, because man is dead in sin, that that makes

God responsible for not being able to respond. Of course it makes him responsible at all. Because God set up the circumstance.

Man has absolutely no option. He does freely and he does willfully because you're saying that God is under obligation to put inside man righteous and holy desires.

No, I'm not. I'm not saying that. But if the will is to do what you're saying that it's to do, that's what you are saying.

From my perspective, that's what you're saying. You're saying that God has to do that. If I were on your side, if I were on your side, the situation that I would be seeing is that for an individual to have a heart that was susceptible to doing good and to accepting

Jesus and God, it has to be put there by God. Because of my fallen nature.

That's the only place it can come from. I totally depend on God for my regeneration.

There's no doubt about it. But as a rebel, I revel in my rebellion.

I love my rebellion as a rebel against God. But the reason you love it is because that's what

I am. The only origin for that is with God.

The only person that is responsible for that is God. God decreed this. He's acting this out.

He caused Adam to fall. He didn't force Adam to fall. He caused Adam to fall.

He didn't force Adam to fall. Causation. Let me read a little statement here from Calvin.

Do you have a reference? Yes, Calvin. Thank you.

Let me read something from Joseph Knight. What's the reference? I didn't put a reference down because it's not like, it's just one of his basic statements.

God has from the, and I'm only quoting this for the purpose of being able to use some terminology that perhaps you would accept.

And that is that God has from the remotest eternity decreed what he would do and is now by his own power, and now by his own power executes what he has decreed.

This isn't something you need a reference on to look at the context or see if I'm misusing it or anything, is it?

No. It's just his statement of what eternal decree means from his philosophy.

If you want that reference, I've got it at home, but I didn't put it down. I just happen to have it at the institution.

That's why I wanted to be able to look at it. And that's where it came from. So at any rate,

God has from the remotest eternity decreed what he will do and now by his own power executes what he has decreed.

So everything is happening based upon what God has eternally decreed.

So that removes the responsibility from me of anything that I might do, good, bad, or indifferent.

And those decrees include the creation of moral agents called men who are judged on the basis of the actions they undertake, on the basis of their wills and the desires that are presented to them, all to bring about the glory of God.

You see, the point being that God is big enough to decree what's going on in time and hold us responsible for the actions that we make there, and hence there is meaning for those things.

In fact, it flows from God's decree. That's right. He's holding us, but he's holding us responsible for the actions which we have absolutely no control over.

And yet which we do freely. And who are you, old man, to answer that? We do it freely because, we do it freely based upon the desires of our heart which came to us, everything came to us from God.

There is no way logically to hold us responsible. The only one that can be held responsible is

God because everything that we are comes about because of God's eternal decree.

You've got the hand on a button, so I'll let you have the final word there. You're on the air. Yes, I would like to thank both of you gentlemen for participating in what

I call a divine comedy of my God is better than your God this evening. What I mean by that is it seems to me that in the history of religion in the world that human beings have a need to sort of put down the other person in terms of what they believe, you know, in terms of my

God can beat up your God better. I don't remember saying that to you, Dan. No, I missed that one.

No, what I'm saying is that there's a tendency within Christianity to be really pious in terms of stating that my

God determines everything that I do because I am saved and you do things because you're not

Christian because you're controlled by something other than God. Well, I recall having said that, but I would say this, that the only reason that I do anything good,

I give that glory to God in His grace and I do not in any way, shape, or form claim any merit or reward for myself on the basis of that.

I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about, but to God be the glory and I take responsibility for anything that I do that is not to His glory.

See, there comes a point in time where one uses the term God as an escape for one's actions and conduct.

Well, I certainly don't. When am I calling in in the first place as a Jewish person whose people have been persecuted for centuries by the hands of Christians?

By the hands of those who call themselves Christians. Well, no, I mean it's gone back to the times of the followers of Christ, the people, the popes who had edicts during the

Middle Ages, in Reformed theology, in this century, it'll continue on even into the next century.

It's this whole sense that my God is better than your God and rather than being in dialogue with one another, being accepting and loving one another, being in open dialogue and saying, hey, we've all created

God together. Rather than doing that, we seem to nail other people for what they believe.

Well, that's all based upon, at least it sounds to me, you're basing your comments upon the idea that God has not revealed himself.

Do you believe God has revealed himself? Well, I believe that God reveals in a way, in ways that maybe we don't understand.

And we try to affix human concepts and precepts to that. Okay, on that note, we're going to try and get in another call or two.

We appreciate your comments. Thank you. Here I'm here. Frank, are you there?

I can hear us in the background. Are you there, Frank? It sounds like Mary Ann.

Well, we got Mary Ann. We've got something mixed up. Go ahead. Okay. I was wondering how

Christianity figures into politics, let's say.

If you're a Christian and you're going to not bear false witness and you're going to love your neighbor as yourself and all of that, can you still call the radio or talk to people and trash them?

And that doesn't count? Well, I don't know.

I think it counts. I don't know what you mean by trash them. I think Christians, this may be the first time the whole evening,

Van, I agree with you. I think Christians, if they're engaged in public life, should certainly have a standard that will stick out like a sore thumb in comparison to what happens normally in the world.

Well, I'm talking about the president, the first lady, the governor, the mayor.

Every day on J -Talk and many of the other stations, we have a paramount of hate radio and people call up and say,

Slick Willie and... Well, my feeling about that is that the Bible tells us to pray for our leaders.

It does not mean we have to agree with them. It does not mean we cannot speak out against any falsehoods, as I may be saying, but we are to pray for them, and the

Bible does command us to do that. Okay, thank you. You're on the air. There's a book named

New Age Tantra Yoga, which was written by a man named Zito, who was a retired Christian minister.

He worked at a church in Hollywood for a number of years. He has a Doctors of Theology degree, and he's in his 90s.

I don't know if he's still living. I spoke to him once. But in his book, he made the statement that there was someone in Russia who had evolved a mathematical formula for mental telepathy, and I wonder if that could be considered a first step or a beginning step towards actually determining the physical mechanism and function of God.

In other words, don't you think mathematics will be to the future scientific investigation of God, as mythology was to the historical presentation of God?

Well, we're not going to respond to your question, because we're right down to where we're out of time, but do you want to make a comment on this?

Well, I'd like to summarize by saying people who are considered to be atheists, such as the Boy Scout, the young man who wanted to become a

Boy Scout, but was refused entry because he claimed to be an atheist, I wonder if moving to a modern theism, we won't look more at a more scientific -oriented, realistic entity in the universe as God, and recognizing all the historical beliefs in God and their representations, except the modern one, as a plausible possibility.

Okay, thank you. And on that note, we're going to just briefly summarize, and James, I'm going to let you have the last word.

Okay. I think that's the way I ought to do it. And just my brief summary of my thinking of this evening is that I find myself strongly rejecting the view that it's the will of God that most of mankind was created by God to suffer eternal torment for that which is completely beyond His control.

On the other hand, I believe that God is working, and that His will and His determination and His desire is to bring all of us to a position of salvation in His kingdom through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Well, I believe that as we've looked at the scriptures this evening, I believe

I'm being fair to say that the majority of scriptures, the vast majority of scriptures I have raised,

I honestly believe that if a person will examine those scriptures, such as Romans chapter 9,

Ephesians chapter 1, and not just pick and choose, but examine them in their context as fully as one can examine any scripture to determine their meaning, that these scriptures are very plain in teaching the sovereignty of God and God's predestination and election.

And I thank you, Van, for the opportunity of talking about these things. I think that we are agreed that the differences in regards to salvation do go back to our differences in regards to who

God is, the nature of God, and so on and so forth, which we've discussed in the past. But I think probably more so than any other program that I've heard before, these issues have been brought out plainly, and hopefully a lot of people have benefited by them and benefited by the fact that we were able to have these types of conversations without hitting each other over the head.

And I appreciate that opportunity very much. Well, and I've enjoyed having you here, and we'll expect to have you back in six months.

And so I think we've had a good time. We had a good time last time when you were here, and we'll do this again.