July 8, 2019 Show with Dr. Michael Haykin on “Baptists & Persecution: A Historical, Ecclesiological & Theological Study”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com this is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 8th day of July 2019 and I'm thrilled to have back on the program one of my favorite guests to interview.

Dr. Michael AG Hagen professor of church history and biblical spirituality and director of the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

Today we are going to be addressing the theme Baptists and persecution a Historical ecclesiological and theological study and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. Michael AG Hagen. And for anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And although you've already done this during your past interviews there may be First time guests who believe it or not.

They might not be familiar with you. Dr. Hagen. So we have not only new Christians who listen to this show in addition to our seasoned Bible-believing Christians. But we also even have those outside of the Christian faith on occasion who let us know they're listening such as atheists agnostics.

We have Muslims on occasion who chime in. We have those outside of Protestantism known as Roman Catholics that occasionally listen all kinds of folks so if you could tell us about your post there. Teaching church history and biblical spirituality at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

I've been teaching all time at Southern and Men and a few women there and most of my what we call British outside of the year, but next year will yeah.

That's interesting. I'm going to be. I don't know the date yet. I'm going to be interviewing Dustin binge on his doctoral dissertation Jonathan Edwards Theology of angels or angel of the angel of angel ology of Jonathan Edwards.

Yeah.

Yeah, he did his thesis under my supervision. He'll be one of the speakers on that occasion. Oh, wow I didn't even know that. Okay, so we've got some. We've got a great lineup of people speaking on Augustin Calvin Luther of the students we get men going into power.

I knew my listers. Weighty weighty charge. To be faithful to the gospel praise God, I'm gonna try to.

Make it out there to that conference, by the way, that's in Louisville, Kentucky. I'm a son.

I'll be in September mid-september 2020. Great. Well, I will. That's the subject that definitely fascinates me.

In fact, I wrote the forward to a book that was published in the 1990s called angels and demons by Victor Knowles someone who is outside of my reformed beliefs, but he I thought the book was excellent and He wrote he asked me to He asked for permission to use a letter I wrote him congratulating him on the excellence of the book to use it as a forward and it was used as the forward and Unfortunately, I think it's out of print, but you could still get used copies on Amazon.

Well.

This is a fascinating subject to me. Baptist and persecution. I don't think I've ever spent a full two-hour broadcast specifically on this subject. And if you could tell us something about the differences between Anabaptists and Baptists.

To start with because I know that a lot of Baptists especially many of our fundamentalist Baptist friends like to adopt the Anabaptists as being Exactly as they are. And I know that the the Anabaptists Varied widely actually and some of them did not even immerse believers.

They used pouring or effusion and there were theological differences that differed widely. But if you could tell us a bit about that. Because I think that is important to bring up when we speak about Baptists and persecution because obviously Anabaptists were very severely persecuted people.

Yes entry they're part of the larger picture that we call the Reformation. They Martin Luther's call to go back to script and as they Realized a number of things with the Roman Catholic Church and the critical thing they realized is that in the New Testament not using the state to pursue its haven't given mandate to about the State is not kind of an arm of the church and in fact that the church is to be made up of believers to believers Church and.

And once they realized this it decreased because they refused to include in their congregations men and women who could not confess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and because of the the state guarded the church and state as kind of a as a married union.

The Anabaptists were seen and they did not regard as believer undermining not only the but they were undermining the state because to become a Christian in the medieval period and also for product to become a Christian to the church a lot of them by Roman Catholics.

So the argument that there is an organic link that the and some of these Puritans began began to read the scripture the idea of a state churches on biblical and Began to separate themselves into those independent congregations read similarities.

There's unbelievers churches. But the ethos so Anabaptists get to their Baptist air the state and in fact Serving as an officer of the state in any capacity was was all biblical and sinful. The Baptist know my mind to argue that the Larry's.

Now you say that the Anabaptists emerged from the 16th century. What would you make then of the the? The Anabaptists that even if they did not have that nickname or Insult as some may have received it Anabaptists were there not those that believed in the independence and autonomy of the church and believed in believers only baptism that existed prior to the 16th century prior to Menno Simons and so on.

To be honest to go back to the medieval period engines. Oh.

That's interesting.

John Wycliffe as the Morning Star of the Reformation.

Now you and I being Baptists ourselves, and we believe that that is the biblical Ecclesiology and the biblical understanding of the ordinances that the church is comprised of autonomous Independent congregations that have no hierarchy outside themselves Outside of the elders other than the Lord Jesus and his word and also a view of believer only baptism as I mentioned.

Wouldn't there have been? Those that were Baptistic even For a while after the the apostolic error. I mean were they completely wiped out or you know. What was the situation like that? Like for instance, I understand From church history and you could correct me if I'm wrong since you're the historian.

Recall reading that the first time we ever see in recorded history infant baptism being mentioned tertullian mentions it but he mentions it with criticism against it he was opposed to it and of course the earliest extra biblical Document that we have for Christian teaching and practice the didache doesn't mention infant baptism at all.

In fact, it is clear that. Teaching immersion. In fact, try unimmersion, but if you could where did the Baptists go? Were they just being persecuted into hiding? Did they disappear for a while?

Yeah, you find basically up until even after coming a mode of baptism and you see that he's not baptized urging at the end of the second century. There is infant baptism in the mid third century defends it which is what happens to and so but up until the fourth century.

You still what is lost by the problem is cargo and the whole idea of the cargo body that Elected so that is under attack and the emergence of an episcopal baptism of baptism.

Interesting. I in fact, I think this is the very first time I heard that Augustine at one time was a credo Baptist. I did not know that.

I.

Needed to baptize him. Now. The question is whether he. And it's interesting that it and just for the sake of our listeners who are unfamiliar with the term credo Baptist. That's a.

Person who believes only in baptism for those who can confess. Their repentance and faith their their creed if you will. Am I right on that? Yes. Yeah, so a lot of people may be unfamiliar with that term.

And of course when we refer to Ancient Christians as being credo Baptist. We're not saying that they were identical necessarily to the first Baptist Church of Louisville, Kentucky or any any Baptist Church that we have in America and in Europe and in other parts of the world today.

Although obviously there would have to be some similarities if we believe that's that our faith is a biblical one. But I know that the immediately people may start to be mocking and ridiculing me as as if I am teaching.

That there has been an unbroken chain of Baptists that are identical today to the Baptist today. But as far as. Before I even go into a broader picture of the persecution of Baptists. Can you tell us something about a book that I am dying to get my hands on is it's a new book to me.

I'm not even sure when you co-authored this. But waiting on the spirit of promise the life and theology of suffering of Abraham cheer if you could. Let us know about that because I know that cheer had some similarities with Bunyan.

John Bunyan in that the Romans 828. Promise that the Lord has given us was true for Bunyan and for cheer in that while they were persecuted and imprisoned. The Lord used that to the great praise and honor and glory of his name because both those men produced Voluminous writings in prison.

Yeah, Abraham cheer was a pastor either. He's a contemporary with Bunyan. He's probably born in the sixth Plymouth by At some point converted in the early and then is arrested around the same time as Bunyan and will spend.

Well.

He's because he provides a number of the Baptist ministry. But we don't have that meant for them. There as you mentioned things while he was in prison because buddy one of my students who is going on for PhD studies in England Wanted to go maybe an MDiv thesis and I thought why don't we work on it?

I thought I assume you're speaking of Brian L. Hanson. I.

Am and Brian's now teaching at Bethlehem. Wow. Well, perhaps we could get Brian on the show sometime. Yep. Yeah, he'd be great.

So going back to the theme for today. Baptists and persecution a historical ecclesiological and theological study. Tell us why initially and when? Baptists were being persecuted. Was it more because of their rejection of infant baptism or because of their view of An independent autonomous church and who was persecuting them initially, how did this begin in your understanding of church history?

Yeah, Baptist emerges I mentioned earlier in the stuff in the way that the landed gentry argued that the state that man was seeking as well to be a good citizen and he actually sent the book to James the first in the prep and.

Wow.

One of the reasons another one of the reasons that this Theme is fascinating to me. Is that I discovered in my 30s, I believe Through my uncle my Anglican uncle that my family the Arnzen's Immigrated from Norway in the 19th century.

This is maybe my father's father's side of the family my paternal grandfather's side of the family and They left Scandinavia in the 19th century because at the time the Lutheran Church state or state church.

I should say the Lutheran State Church Was persecuting Baptists and and others all others outside of Lutheranism.

For.

Conducting Baptisms and the Lord's Supper particularly without a Lutheran ministers license and although they were not being Physically Tormented tortured and murdered they were being fined and imprisoned.

And there was. I'm assuming you're aware of the massive exodus from Scandinavia in the 19th century and my ancestors were Baptists on my father's side all the way up to my father's father and I was raised Roman Catholic.

Had no idea about this because my my father was Episcopalian and He married my mother who was Roman Catholic and my father later converted to Catholicism when I was about 17. He thought it would bring the family closer together and he also erroneously thought in his mind that the Catholic Church was first.

So therefore go in his mind. He was returning to the root of Christianity, which obviously is a falsehood. But.

I.

Did not even know his father was a Baptist and I did not know all of the Arnsons prior to him that we have in recorded history were Baptists at least in the past and The BAP the Arnsons who settled in Virginia are still predominantly Baptist.

So this was all a new thing to me. And obviously the subject is more precious to me. Wow.

Yeah, amen, and I can remember my father not being so pleased when I said hey dad.

I think we should all return to our roots Because I was a Baptist already at the time. So the story was even more significant for me being a Baptist but. We are going to our first break right now. If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for dr Michael AG Hagen on Baptists and persecution Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Of course, you can ask any question relative to the martyrs and Christian theology, we do have a Scholar and theologian and historian on our show today. So we will accept a bit broader of a theme but the main questions we're hoping to get are involving Baptists our history in our persecution and.

The email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris ARN z en a gmail .com and as always Please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a Personal and private matter don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages with more of dr. Michael Hagen and the persecution of Baptists.

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So go to solid ground books calm solid ground books calm and make sure you tell them that you heard about Them from Chris Arnzen and I interpret his iron radio. We are now back with our two-hour interview with about 90 minutes or less to go with dr Michael AG Haken professor of church history and biblical spirituality and Director of the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

We are discussing Baptists and persecution a historical ecclesiological and theological study. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. We have Mary in Cork Ireland who has a question for you.

Dr. Haken I have read your book on the Baptist story. When I attended the Munster Bible College in Cork, Ireland. I did not have the privilege of meeting you, but nonetheless I read this book. Thank you very much for enlightening me about all that went on in the past regarding Christianity and their persecution.

May I ask you a question, please? What are your thoughts on Munster in Germany in? 1534 fanatical group of Anabaptists seized the town of Munster in Germany by force believing. They were setting up the kingdom of God.

Oh, I Didn't pronounce that correctly in Germany by force. Believing they were setting up the kingdom of God. A theocracy was formed. They introduced laws such as execution of adulterers legalization of polygamy and the Abolition of private property.

The town was overtaken by the Catholic Army in 1535. They severely damaged the reputation of the Anabaptists. And if you could please address that for Mary in Cork, Ireland, dr.

Hagen, yeah, it's of church use of violence. Chrissy of The the Anabaptist 200 years after this uses the term and how it had been used to. It's very easy to take something like this an extremist view and.

Simply write off what is I think a biblical under. You know, you get I use these to typify all Evangelical times. A renewal. You have these extremists.

And unfortunately the Beliefs and actions of these Munster rights as I believe they were nicknamed Really brought upon the persecution of a lot of Other Anabaptists who had nothing to do with these extreme and bizarre ideas and behaviors.

Am I right? Yes, exactly, and I think a Luther although he did not personally persecute any Anabaptists he forbid them free passage, I believe or safe passage what is the story about that. Because a lot of people I'm not trying to candy coat the life and Thinking of Martin Luther, but I think sometimes His involvement in persecution is exaggerated if not outright false, but if you could tell us what you know about.

Agent. Actual persecution of Anabaptist. He encountered some Anabaptist. They claimed they didn't need script in his mind. They were just undermining the state. Well, I.

Do you know anything about that? Incident or incidents plural where he forbid Anabaptist safe passage Through the areas he had influence which resulted in their persecution. No, I don't.

That sounds like something that would take place in the late 1520s early 1530s when Anabaptists were beginning to ended up migrating over towards Poland and the Ukraine at least have been the early Luther up until now as far as the.

Fanatics amongst the Anabaptists in Munster. Did their more extreme ideas of polygamy and executing even disobedient children and things like that. Did that die off with them or were there some remnants of?

No, that's a good incident, but it became such a celebrated incident that it and as I said when. Even the use of the term the color red.

Okay. Yeah, that's what I was mainly asking about. We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina one of our regular listeners and also a very generous supporter of my trip and Zion radio and Grady says hi brother Chris another great show.

Growing up Southern Baptist and now as a reformed Baptist I often heard about Baptist persecution much to my regret. I've never investigated the history. I'm really shocked hearing that the Lutheran and Church of England, which I assume was Anglican Was one of the persecutors.

I had assumed the persecution came from the Roman Catholic Church. What other groups persecuted the Baptists and when did persecution in Europe end so that we had? I'm sorry so that we through the providence of God had great Baptist preachers like Spurgeon and.

That's Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

Yeah persecution essentially in Great Britain ended with the establishment of one America. You have places like Virginia Where the Church of England was the imprisonment of Baptists in the few cases actual brutal persecution though by the time you enter into?

The mid 18th century. Well, that's how we get to the list something to be taken I think likely or for grand the short sorts of things. The reason why I think this topic is of significance for us is that the.

Climate.

Is increasingly one of intolerance. Amen. We are going to our midway break right now.

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