February 6, 2025 Show with Jason Wallace on “The Cult of Alcoholics Anonymous”

0 views

February 7, 2025

February 6, 2025 Jason Wallace,Pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church(OPC), Magna, Utah, documentarian& debate organizer, who will address: “The CULT of ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS” Subscribe: Listen:

00:03: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
00:11: George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
00:16: Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:09: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:22: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this sixth day of February 2025.
01:32: Please continue to keep my sister Mary in your prayers. Tomorrow she is having her right leg all the way up to above the knee amputated, and so please pray for her not only physically, but pray for her mentally, emotionally, and most of all spiritually.
01:55: So please pray for Mary as she is having her surgery tomorrow.
02:00: That's Friday, the 7th of February 2025, and I will give you folks updates on how everything goes.
02:11: But today I am thrilled to have an old friend of mine who I've interviewed many times. I'm looking forward to today's interview quite significantly because it is a topic near and dear to my heart, having been one who has been brought to repentance by the grace and mercy of our sovereign
02:36: God of the sin of drunkenness and habitual scandalous drunkenness, that is, not only before salvation but even during a backslidden state after salvation.
02:52: And so this topic is very close to my heart because I join my guest in warning my fellow strugglers with addiction out there, warning them to avoid the
03:11: Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous organizations and systems and meetings and so on, in spite of the fact that there are many who have had success in achieving sobriety in those organizations and remain sober after even decades.
03:33: But my guest today believes many more experience failure in achieving sobriety in these organizations.
03:41: But that's even an issue that's not the most important factor of what we will be discussing today.
03:48: We are discussing the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome back to the program
03:55: Jason Wallace, who is pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, an
04:02: Orthodox Presbyterian congregation. He's also a documentarian, and he is an organizer of public moderated theological debates.
04:11: Welcome back to the program, Jason Wallace. Thank you, Chris. It's always good to be back with you.
04:18: Tell our listeners something about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, also known as Christ Presbyterian Church.
04:29: Well, we started from scratch 27 years ago, and Utah is a difficult place.
04:37: Where I come from in Georgia, the nominal Protestant population is generally around 65%.
04:44: That's anything remotely identifiable as sort of not Catholic and not, you know, some kind of cult or something like that.
04:54: Here in Salt Lake County, it's barely 4%. And the next county south, it's two -thirds of 1%.
05:01: That's from lesbian Episcopalians to, you know, whatever could in the wildest imagination be called somewhat
05:10: Protestant. When you start talking evangelicals, the number gets very small. This is a very difficult place.
05:19: But the Lord's blessed. We've been here 27 years.
05:26: The Lord's blessed us with a building. It's actually an old Mormon meeting house, and we have a sister congregation.
05:35: Oh, yeah. I never knew that. What irony. One down, several thousand to go.
05:47: But we have a sister congregation in Clearfield, which is about 35 -40 miles north of us, and we have a mission work on Provo that is about 45 miles south of us.
06:07: Great. And what is the website for that fine congregation? GospelUtah .org.
06:16: Great. Well, what were the compelling factors that led you to the opinion to add to the growing number of documentaries that you have created?
06:32: And by the way, folks, they're masterfully done. They're very professionally done. When you see
06:38: Jason Mollis's documentaries, it's as if, you know, one of the multi -million dollar networks had created it.
06:49: There's nothing low -budget looking in these documentaries. And even more importantly, they're filled with very important information and so on.
07:03: But what were the compelling factors that said to yourself,
07:12: I've got to do a documentary on the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous?
07:21: You're very kind, by the way. Thank you. I had had some exposure through friends to a little bit of AA.
07:30: I really didn't know that much about it, but I tried witnessing a couple of years ago to a
07:38: Mormon guy who was in AA, and he kept telling me that there was real repentance going on.
07:46: And I told him, I said, you know, unless your repentance is toward God, it's a game.
07:55: And so, we had an appointment for lunch, and he calls me up and tells me he wants me to meet him at this place instead.
08:03: Well, it's where the AA meeting is taking place, and he brought lunch for us. And so,
08:09: I actually sat in on a meeting and got to hear things, and it was appalling.
08:18: Someone said they had upgraded their higher power from a doorknob to a rock.
08:27: Why would that be an upgrade? I don't know.
08:33: I mean, the doorknob apparently is mentioned in AA materials that it can be whatever you want it to be.
08:42: And so, if you want it to be a doorknob, it can be a doorknob. So, that's apparently what a fair number of people start out, that they're going to make their higher power that they're accountable to a doorknob.
08:57: And she was upgrading. And you know,
09:03: I hear stories from other people, there's an atheist who says that,
09:09: I'll leave out the flowery language, but he believes there's nothing to AA in terms of there being a
09:19: God. But if you pretend that there's a God, it works. And, you know, there were people that were talking about how, you know, they had been sober for a couple of weeks.
09:36: And, you know, we went around and it was, when we got through, the
09:45: Mormon guy who had invited me there, he says, you see what
09:51: I mean? I'm like, where is any sorrow for offending the
09:57: God who made you and gave you everything? Where is there any concern about the holiness of God?
10:05: And he looked at me like I was from another planet. So...
10:10: Like his God. I got exposed to some, there were some other things that I saw that AA is apparently very big in Mormon culture and had some other exposure.
10:29: So I started looking into it and I found out it's the same old story that I've dealt with in numerous other documentaries that, you know, people are claiming that they're getting direct revelation from God better than the
10:45: Bible. And I joked with a friend of mine that I had spoken with him about this.
10:52: He went through AA and he told me that it started out as a
10:57: Christian organization, but it had been co -opted. And he pointed me towards some books written by a guy that goes by the name of Dick B, the initial
11:06: B, you know, because of the anonymity thing. But this guy supposedly traces the history of how what started as a
11:15: Christian organization has been co -opted and, you know, the Lord's prayer has been replaced with the statement of unity and things like this.
11:25: So, yeah, I read some of these things, but as I began to peel back the layers and actually listen to what
11:33: Bill Wilson said about AA and found out it came straight out of the
11:41: Oxford group, which was an earlier thing that had stressed meetings and confession of sins in front of groups and things like this, that essentially this was the alcoholic wing of the
11:59: Oxford group and got into some of their history. It was amazing.
12:06: It was like Joseph Smith 2 .0.
12:12: I mean, it's the same basic story that people aren't content with the biblical gospel.
12:24: They try to edit it and they're getting new revelations.
12:34: Some of your listeners may be familiar with the book Jesus Calling, written by Sarah Young.
12:41: There's been some controversy over it in the last couple of years. It was supposedly direct revelations that she was getting from Jesus.
12:53: Well, it was actually inspired by a book that came out of the Oxford groups called God Calling. And you listen to these people.
13:05: Bill Wilson took it in a little bit different direction, but it's the same basic claim.
13:11: He thought he was getting direct revelations from God. He was also doing seances and claimed he was getting revelations from St.
13:19: Francis of Assisi and angels and everyone else. But it's the same basic story.
13:31: We have a newer New Testament, and it's works -based, and the group is your great hope.
13:44: And so my friend that had been part of AA was telling me that it had started as a
13:51: Christian organization. I don't know if you've seen the little cartoon that Lutheran satire put out a few years ago where they're dealing with St.
14:03: Patrick's analogies. Oh, yeah, that is brilliant. And I posted on Facebook every
14:09: St. Patrick's Day at Soul Areas. Oh, yeah, it's fun. I mean, they did a great job with that.
14:18: And so I had a picture of the two little Irish guys, and I added the subtitle underneath.
14:24: It's like, that's Mormonism, Patrick. It's the same story.
14:32: It just keeps getting rehashed. But would you like me to go back to the beginning of the
14:43: Oxford groups and sort of bring you forward, or how would you want to? Yeah, that would be good. That would be good. Eventually, before we get too deep, maybe when we come back from the midway break, or I'm sorry, when we come back from the first break, we can have you tell our listeners about positive things about AANA, the 12 -step movement, because there may be people that are going to dismiss us immediately who believe they've been helped enormously, that their lives have been changed, their families have been rescued, they've been transformed, and are new people, and all that kind of thing, because that does happen.
15:29: Just like addicts have found sobriety in the
15:35: Nation of Islam, or in Islam, or in Mormonism, or a host of other cults and false world religions.
15:48: These people have, with certainty, just many of them, become sober.
15:56: But is that worth the exchange if you are going to be adopting a false religious ideology and worldview?
16:11: But please start as far back as you can, and we will get to the positive elements of AANA.
16:21: Well, let me give a taste of that. I mean, I can develop it further. But I think that there's enough biblical truth in the 12 steps that they can provide a measure of help.
16:33: And some people have gotten sober and found Christ by following, looking for the deeper principles beyond what they're giving.
16:47: So yes, you can get sober. And yes, there's some biblical truth there.
16:53: The problem is, it's sort of like Mormonism.
16:59: Mormonism tells you, do not murder, do not lie, do not steal, unless the prophet tells you to.
17:07: But in general, they have some biblical principles that can be helpful, but they're divorced from the biblical
17:18: God and the biblical gospel. And therefore, they will, at best, leave you empty, if not create idols for you.
17:29: And I think AANA becomes an idol. Yeah, even God's own breathed -out words in the book of Proverbs, for instance, there is much in there that one might call common sense teaching.
17:49: But if you divorce it from obedience to God, and specifically
17:57: Jesus Christ and the triune Godhead, it is ultimately going to bring you to the same damnation as the worst addict and serial killer on the planet.
18:14: Yeah. And drunkenness is a symptom of a deeper issue. You can make the symptom go away.
18:21: It's sort of like, you know, a psychiatrist can prescribe you something to make you feel better without ever dealing with the fundamental problem of what caused that symptom.
18:37: And AA can make the symptom of drunkenness go away and maybe help you stay sober.
18:44: But Bill Wilson essentially went from being a drunk to being a chain smoker, a serial adulterer, experimented for years with LSD, mushrooms.
19:03: I couldn't document this one, but it seems fairly substantive.
19:08: It's talked about a lot, even by his defenders, that he did marijuana for years.
19:16: Um, this is a guy who said that LSD was as harmless as aspirin. He was, um, he was compulsive.
19:26: He just changed his compulsion. But, but anyway, in terms of the history, when you, when you listen to Bill Wilson, if you watch, if you go to the big book, you'll see a couple of offhand references to the
19:40: Oxford group. But if you actually go back and listen to the speeches of Bill Wilson, if you look at, um, things like, uh,
19:51: Alcoholics Anonymous comes of age, you know, their history book and things like this, they will flatly admit, yes, they, they got their start in the
20:00: Oxford group. And they actually functioned as what they called the alcoholic squadron of the
20:08: Oxford group. From 1935 until 1939 was the, was the real break.
20:15: Weren't they even being criticized for being a sex cult back then in the early 20th century?
20:21: Oh, oh yeah. The, well, Oxford group was. Yeah, that's what I mean. The, and, and so, you know, you'll see
20:29: Sam Shoemaker mentioned prominently, you know, he, uh, he, he figures he was a board member of AA.
20:37: He was the rector of, um, my mind just slipped a gear, but, uh, the
20:43: Episcopal church on Park Avenue in New York. Yes, I've been in that, that tilding.
20:49: It has historically, uh, reformed roots, uh,
20:54: Stephen H. Ting, a thoroughgoing five -point Calvinist, uh, low church
21:00: Anglican was the pastor of that church with the founding pastor,
21:06: St. George's Episcopal church in Manhattan in the 19th century.
21:13: And, uh, by the way, you could get, uh, several of Stephen H.
21:18: Ting's wonderful books from Solid Ground Christian Books. Let me give them a plug real quick. Solid -Ground -Books .com,
21:26: Solid -Ground -Books .com, Stephen H. Ting, that's T Y N G.
21:33: And I believe Stephen is spelled with a PH, but I, I interrupted you there. You'll hear
21:42: Sam Shoemaker called the head of the Oxford group. Well, he wasn't.
21:48: The founder and head of the Oxford group was a guy by the name of Frank Buckman.
21:54: And he he's from Pennsylvania, uh, originally, and he grew up in the
22:03: Lutheran church and was ordained a Lutheran minister.
22:09: He goes to Philadelphia and becomes involved in ministry there.
22:17: Uh, he sets up a home to, to minister to these, uh, young men that are, are flocking into the cities in, uh, the late 1800s, uh, because of industrialization, things like this.
22:35: And he has a falling out with his, uh, board that's overseeing this mission for the
22:44: Lutheran church. And so he leaves, uh, they, they said he was being too extravagant.
22:52: So he quits that and goes on a tour of Europe. And while he's on this tour, he goes to Keswick.
23:03: And, uh, the Keswick had started, uh, several decades earlier as this holiness, uh, conference that was taking place.
23:18: And it had inspired a number of things, including, uh, Alexander Dowie, uh, had connections with Keswick.
23:28: Uh, the, the Azusa street revival is said to have flowed at least partially out of the
23:36: Keswick movement, but he, um, it's the
23:43: Keswick conference was based on the idea that the reformers had neglected the doctrine of sanctification and they were going to bring a, uh, a cessation of all known sin by a second work of grace, perfectionism.
24:02: If you just let go and let God, then you could no longer have to wrestle with sin.
24:07: You would have this, this mystical experience that would make you sinless. And, and, you know, it finds its roots in Wesley and, and, you know, other mystical traditions, but Buckman goes there and, uh, he, he went to hear, um, a speaker who didn't show up the, um, the fellow that, um, oh, my mind is,
24:37: I'm getting old, uh, Chris, but yeah, it's great to hear because you're younger than me.
24:48: Barely, barely, but, um, oh, what was the guy's name?
24:56: Uh, maybe give me another reference. I don't know. Maybe, maybe I'll think of it. Oh, the, the, the, the guy, the
25:06: Christian secret of guidance. Um, oh, what was his, anyway, he goes to hear the author of that book and whose name was coming to me in a moment here, but at any rate, he goes to hear him.
25:20: He's not there, but this guided prayer was being practiced by lots of others that went to the conference.
25:28: And so, you know, what they tell Buckman is, you know, that the secret of divine guidance is that you pray and then you empty your mind.
25:39: You take a pen in hand and you write out what the spirit is supposedly telling you.
25:46: And it's automatic writing is, you know, one of the things what it's known as in occult circles, but it, these are supposed to be direct revelations from God.
25:59: And while he's there at Keswick, he hears Jesse Penn Warren, uh, speak.
26:06: And, um, these are, these are people who are telling you that if you just have enough faith, you won't be sick.
26:15: You won't wrestle with sin. You just, you just have to have enough faith. And he hears this and he commits himself to absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness.
26:30: And, you know, it's, it's perfectionism is what he's committing himself towards. And it's coupled with this mystical experience of, you know, this, this, um, you know, feeling of warmth running over you that supposedly to confirm all this.
26:50: Is F .B. Mayer the person you were trying to remember? Yes. Yes. That's who I was trying to think of.
26:55: Okay. And I believe so. He wrote the most of the secret of guidance.
27:03: Yes, that's, that's who I was reaching for. Okay. So he went there to hear
27:08: Mayer and, um, he wasn't there, but he, he heard, um, a number of others that were in this holiness wing of things.
27:22: And he has this experience and he believes that, um, if he can just initiate others into this experience, then they will be free from sin as well.
27:38: And this is going to transform the world. If other people can be brought to, to experience this same thing, he becomes the, the
27:51: YMCA, the YMCA secretary at Penn State, uh, for I believe four years.
27:59: And he was essentially a campus minister. And what he does is instead of preaching
28:06: Christ crucified, he goes to the young men and he tells them what he thinks that God has revealed to him about their sins.
28:19: And surprise, surprise, he tells these, uh, 18, 19, 20 year old, uh, young men in college that it's sexual sin that is their problem.
28:36: And he confesses his sins to them to elicit a confession from them.
28:47: And as you might expect, you know, this turns a lot of people off, but for those who hear him, you know, seeming, seeming to have this great spiritual insight into their lives, and he's claiming he's getting it by direct revelation from the
29:03: Holy Spirit. Um, they confess these things that they've been ashamed of and they experience this catharsis.
29:15: That, how did you know that, you know, at 19 years of age, that sexual sin was a great temptation for me?
29:24: Uh, it must be by divine revelation. You needed divine revelation to know that.
29:33: Yeah. I, I remember my father saying, you know, ice is cold, fire is, water is wet, ice is cold, fire is hot.
29:41: Um, yeah, it's not a great stretch in my mind to think that teenage boys, uh, you know, boys in their late teens would have, uh, sex on their minds.
29:57: By the way, you got to pick up where you left off. We have to go to our first commercial break. So just pick up where you left off and don't forget where you left off.
30:05: We'll be right back after these messages don't go away. I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
30:16: Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord and his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.
30:25: At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune
30:40: God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.
30:48: In our worship, we sing Psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every
30:54: Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.
31:02: That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.
31:17: I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.
31:23: I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother,
31:30: Chris Arnson, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,
31:44: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, cvbbs .com,
31:56: I'm going to enable you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that Reformers, the
32:03: Puritans, and the great Christian minds of today have to offer, and at affordable prices.
32:09: Not only does cvbbs .com offer up to 50 % off retail prices, but you'll get an added 5 % off orders of $50 or more by using promo code
32:24: IRON, I -R -O -N, an added 5 % off all of your orders of $50 or more from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
32:37: That's cvbbs .com, making the joy of reading the finest in Christian literature more affordable.
32:46: Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.
33:05: Greetings, this is
33:11: Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program.
33:21: SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.
33:32: We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com.
33:40: But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
33:54: Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
34:01: In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt
34:07: God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.
34:13: I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
34:21: That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
34:33: I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the
34:40: Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
34:49: That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.
34:59: That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
35:25: I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
35:35: Every Christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the Westminster standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the
35:44: Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
35:51: It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.
36:03: Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
36:14: For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.
36:22: For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,
36:29: heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.
36:38: Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio praise
37:01: God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the
37:09: American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.
37:16: For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications,
37:26: Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step by step through every stage of the process and even hold a high tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.
37:43: They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.
37:51: From rough design to digital model, to photorealistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.
38:07: This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations.
38:14: Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today.
38:21: Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,
38:28: Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Rating.
38:41: And don't forget folks, Valentine's Day is Friday of next week and if you haven't purchased a beautiful, stunning, head -turning, breathtaking gift for your
38:54: Valentine yet, you still have time to go to royaldiadem .com and pick out something from their inventory of gorgeous jewelry and perhaps have it overnighted to yourself or to your loved one so that they receive it in time for Valentine's Day.
39:12: Mother's Day is not far off, but it is far enough off that you have time to not only purchase something from the inventory at royaldiadem .com,
39:24: but you can have a one -of -a -kind custom design piece of jewelry created for your mom or your wife, if she is a mother, or your daughter, if she is a mother, or anybody else in your life who is a mother that you bless with a gift on Mother's Day.
39:43: So whether it's purchasing something that they already have in stock or having a one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry customized and created, please go to royaldiadem .com
39:54: and the biggest reason of all, next to the fact that they are masters at creating jewelry, is that we at Iron Trip and Zion Radio will get 100 % of the profits from any sale of jewelry to our
40:08: Iron Trip and Zion Radio listeners if they mention Iron Trip and Zion Radio when they make their purchases at royaldiadem .com.
40:16: So please go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We're now back with our discussion with my dear friend for many years,
40:27: Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church, an Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah.
40:35: We are discussing The Cult of Alcoholics Anonymous, which is also the title of his latest documentary that he produces through Ancient Paths TV, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
40:53: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.
41:01: If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and obviously, a topic like this, it's a no -brainer that it may evoke a number of anonymous questions, but please pick up where you left off,
41:19: Jason Wallace. Okay, and for some people, they don't want to hear about the
41:27: Oxford Group, they just want to focus on Bill Wilson, but you know, Bill Wilson says everything in AA came from the
41:35: Oxford Group. They functioned as the alcoholic squadron, they call themselves, of the
41:46: Oxford Group from 35 to 39. Dr. Bob had been in the
41:52: Oxford Group for two and a half years prior to Bill Wilson meeting him, you know, the thing, the story of how they met and how
42:01: AA was found and everything else. And again, to repeat from what I said last half hour, the
42:09: Oxford Group was even being exposed in newspaper articles by concerned citizens as being a sex cult.
42:22: Oh yeah. And why was that? Tell us why that was the case. Okay, well, basically, this approach, you know,
42:33: Buckman goes to Keswick in 1908 and has this experience, goes to Penn State, serves as the
42:44: YMCA secretary until 1915. He goes and confronts these young men and tells them that God has told them their sin is sex, and he confesses his own sins and expects them to confess theirs, and then gets them all together and they all confess their sins together.
43:02: So he kind of hones this at the YMCA. 1915, he leaves for China and decides that the reason that they're not seeing great success there is that God has revealed to him that there's sexual sin on the part of the missionaries.
43:29: And he begins to make very specific personal accusations based on supposed direct revelation, and people get tired and they lash out at him and he ends up being sent home.
43:48: So he comes back to the U .S. and he founds the
43:54: First Century Christian Fellowship, and he draws a lot of the folks that he had met at Penn State become part of this.
44:04: Sam Shoemaker, he met him in China, he becomes his number one disciple, and they focus on college students.
44:16: And in 1928, Time Magazine ran an article on the
44:24: Buckmanites, as they called them, and it started with a little ditty from Princeton, noisy, dirty, impolite, nobody likes a
44:33: Buckmanite. Oh yeah, and New York Times was calling this a sex cult, because the 1927,
44:48: I think, was the earliest article in the New York Times, but this was creating a scandal among the elite schools.
45:00: One of the things that Buckman had complained about in China was that they were focusing on the people as a whole, and he said what they should have been doing was focusing on the rich and powerful, that they were the ones who could really transform a nation.
45:21: And so you see that mindset of convert the elite and then that will carry down, applied in his first century
45:35: Christian fellowship. Now that name ends up getting changed to the
45:41: Oxford group. Later, he supposedly gets divine revelation to change it to moral rearmament.
45:50: And I mean, we'll get to that, but some people may have heard of that.
45:57: Glenn Close grew up in moral rearmament, publicly denounced as a cult.
46:03: Yeah, the actress. But this first century Christian fellowship, this idea was not to go back to primitive
46:13: Christianity. It was to jettison all theology in favor of experience.
46:20: Now, can you please explain, I'm still baffled, how did it go from being a puritanical movement of calling people to repent of their fornication and adultery to a movement that was scandalously known for participating in those sins?
46:48: Well, it was the public confession of these things that was creating the scandal.
46:55: It wasn't that they were indulging in these things. So, you know, the bugmanites would go up to a stranger and say, you know,
47:11: I've been praying and God has put it on my heart to come and confront you about your sexual sin.
47:17: And they would name a very specific thing. And, you know, if they didn't get punched in the teeth, you know, get punched out.
47:26: Sometimes they, I mean, and they typically would aim towards college age guys, but they got a big following.
47:43: And there was an Episcopal magazine called The Churchmen that did a series of articles on what they called the
47:50: Frank Buckman, Sam Shoemaker cult and talked about the religious frenzy.
47:58: Time magazine talked about religious frenzy. And if you can imagine, here are people in the 1920s that have strangers coming up to them and telling them,
48:13: God has told me to confront you with this sin. And they end up confessing it in front of others and they all get together and they all confess their sins in scandalous ways.
48:30: And this is supposed to be a washing out that leads them to absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness.
48:43: And it has an effect on people.
48:49: I mean, it's a catharsis. And Sam Shoemaker called it the
48:58: Salvation Army for the Educated. They really aimed at the top schools, especially
49:05: Ivy League schools. I think Sam Shoemaker was a Yale grad, if I'm remembering correctly.
49:13: And so the Churchmen described one of their campaigns.
49:19: There was a broader, they sort of insinuated themselves in with other evangelical, even evangelistic groups like the
49:33: YMCA early on. And so they had this revival that they tried to have back in the 20s.
49:47: And it's described in the video, you know, you have one person become so emotionally overwrought, they are hospitalized for an epileptic fit.
50:01: You have a minister who is so overwhelmed, he said he saw
50:08: Jesus on the side of the road and pulled over and walked into the woods with him and wept and wept with Jesus.
50:21: It creates this mania among a lot of folks.
50:28: On the one hand, you've got these revelations of deepest, darkest secrets publicly, but also this ecstatic experience that's being claimed.
50:41: The funny thing is, even in those days, even in the 20s, when this first gets started, the
50:50: Buckman said, we don't want to make
50:56: Catholics and Jews into Protestants. We want them to be better Catholics and Jews. I wonder if that's where Mother Teresa got that slogan.
51:04: Oh, I think it goes back to Cain, personally. Well, I didn't say she invented it.
51:10: I said maybe she picked it up from them. Oh, I understand. But it's a very moralistic, it's very ecstatic, very moralistic, and yet very optimistic.
51:30: They believed they were going to remake the world. And so the
51:36: Oxford group, you need to recognize this is between the wars.
51:45: This found a ready audience. People ate it up. And when
51:52: Buckman changes the name to Moral Rearmament, they issue a manifesto.
52:01: And one of the signers of the manifesto is the guy who has just left being prime minister of Great Britain, along with just this litany of leading
52:15: British and American politicians and sportsmen and others.
52:24: I mean, this thing's huge. They had followers, I think, by 1937, they were in 55 countries.
52:36: So this was in less than a dozen years.
52:44: People ate up this thing. And Buckman was telling everybody, you can talk directly to God and get direct revelation.
52:59: And so one of the, he didn't write any new scriptures, but he got his followers to do it.
53:08: And so one of the things that comes out of this,
53:15: I mentioned it earlier, is the book, God Calling. In fact, pick up where you left off with God Calling, because we have to go to our midway break.
53:22: If you want to join us, folks, there are already some waiting to have their questions asked and answered.
53:27: But if you want to join them, please send your questions to chrisorenson at gmail .com.
53:34: You may remain anonymous if you wish. And we'll be right back after these messages. I'm Dr.
53:47: Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
53:58: Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.
54:05: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
54:22: Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
54:29: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.
54:38: For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformli .net.
54:45: That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.
54:54: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
55:07: When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
55:26: New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
55:34: Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the
55:39: NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, and the
55:51: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the
55:56: First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
56:03: I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my
56:08: Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardenville, Nevada, and the
56:15: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York, and the
56:24: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas, and the
56:32: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the
56:40: NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep
56:46: Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?
56:52: Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.
57:01: Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.
57:10: Armored Republic exists to equip free men with tools of liberty to defend God -given rights against the twin threats of tyranny and chaos.
57:19: If you own a rifle to resist tyrants and criminals, then you should own body armor and a med kit for the same reasons.
57:25: A rifle stops evil, body armor and a med kit keep you in the fight and preserve your life.
57:31: Armored Republic is a body of free craftsmen united to create tools of liberty. We are honored to be your armorsmith of choice.
57:39: Civilian ownership of body armor is about increasing decentralized power and by comparison, reducing the advantages of centralized power.
57:48: The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king. As Americans, we hate the word king applied to any mere man.
57:57: We are Armored Republic and in a republic, there is no king but Christ. Arm yourself with tools of liberty at armoredrepublic .com.
58:13: If you love Iron Sharpens Iron radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.
58:22: One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is
58:28: Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
58:34: Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission, to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.
58:44: They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.
58:55: Patafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611
59:12: King James Bible. This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
59:22: This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the
59:28: Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
59:37: Originals of this work are in museums and nobody's ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.
59:46: You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.
59:53: Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.
01:00:01: Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:00:28: They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.
01:00:36: CVBBS has been a family -owned book service since 1987, operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
01:00:43: They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices, and now they're also shipping worldwide.
01:00:52: Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:01:00: Order online worldwide at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.
01:01:08: Or you can order by phone at 717 -249 -0231.
01:01:14: That's 717 -249 -0231. For orders of $50 or more, use promo code
01:01:23: IRON for an extra 5 % off their already discounted prices. And please, let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:01:41: Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.
01:01:52: Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.
01:01:59: We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.
01:02:12: We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt
01:02:18: Christ. This is Pastor David Rees of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.
01:02:24: Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.
01:02:32: Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com.
01:02:52: It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.
01:02:58: Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,
01:03:07: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.
01:03:15: Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is
01:03:20: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
01:03:33: Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.
01:03:39: Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.
01:03:45: Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
01:03:50: Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great
01:04:00: Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,
01:04:11: Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.
01:04:17: For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
01:04:24: That's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com or call 678 -954 -7831.
01:04:31: That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them
01:04:36: Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoy in County Kildare, Arlington, sends you.
01:04:47: Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com
01:04:56: website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the
01:05:03: Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.
01:05:13: Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time, day or night.
01:05:19: Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Prince Arnzen has on the show.
01:05:29: Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the
01:05:35: Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com
01:05:41: podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a
01:05:48: Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keech's Catechism and the
01:05:54: Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie Podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.
01:06:04: And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, New York.
01:06:14: Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening. Welcome back, folks.
01:06:20: If you love Iron Sharpens Iron radio, we urgently need your financial help. Please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,
01:06:29: click support, then click, click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion, and if you prefer snail mail, sending a physical check from your post office to a physical address the old -fashioned way.
01:06:45: There will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com,
01:06:51: where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you want to advertise with us, whether it's your church, parachurch ministry, your business, your private professional practice, like a law firm or a medical firm, or if it's just a special event, whatever the case is, if it's compatible with what
01:07:11: I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we're just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as your donations.
01:07:21: So go to send me an email, I should say, to ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:07:28: I am really screwing up today. Sorry, folks. Send your email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
01:07:35: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, and tell me what it is you want to advertise, but advertising in the subject line.
01:07:51: Also, folks, please always remember, I never want my listeners donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by cutting into their financial resources that they have specifically set aside for giving to their own local church on the
01:08:10: Lord's Day. In other words, never give your own church, where you're a member, less money than you normally do in order to bless
01:08:16: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I always wanted this program to be a friend, helping hand, right arm, and platform to the biblically faithful local pastor and church, and never wanted to in any way harm the biblically faithful local pastor and church, and that includes financially.
01:08:36: So never give your own church less money than you normally give your church, and never give to us if it's taking food off of your dinner table if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet.
01:08:49: The Bible is clear that we're primarily to use the money with which God has blessed us to provide for our church and family, and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio obviously is not mentioned in the
01:08:59: Bible as an institution where you are commanded to donate.
01:09:09: But if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and even trivial purposes, well, please share some of that money with us if you want us to continue to exist.
01:09:26: We've really been suffering as far as donations go ever since COVID.
01:09:32: The donations that used to come in regularly every month have plummeted to an all -time low and never bounced back since COVID.
01:09:44: So please help us. Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.
01:09:52: Last but not least, if you're not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally solid, theologically sound church like Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:10:08: and put I need a church in the subject line. No matter where you live in the world, I've helped people all over the planet earth find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes even just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you too if you are without a biblically faithful church home.
01:10:26: Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That is also the email address where you can send in a question to my guest,
01:10:36: Jason Wallace. He is the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, and he is a documentarian and organizer of live, moderated public theological debates, and we are discussing the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous, if you could pick up where you left off, brother.
01:10:58: Yeah, well, I'll try to move forward from the Oxford Group. To me, it's fascinating because it shows a trajectory as far as, you know,
01:11:09: AA, they downplayed their roots in the Oxford Group, but the
01:11:15: Oxford Group fell apart. They were putting forward their own revelations from God, God calling by two listeners.
01:11:25: They were two women that were anonymous, but they were from within the group. They put out these revelations supposedly come from Jesus.
01:11:36: They have him saying, do not be too ready to do, just be.
01:11:42: I said be, therefore perfect, not do perfect things. Try and grasp this.
01:11:48: Individual efforts avail nothing. It is only the work of the universal spirit, my spirit, that counts.
01:12:00: Another one supposedly from Jesus. In each of you two, remember there is God, that God I reverence and submit to, though I and my
01:12:09: Father are one. So as man grows more and more like my Father in heaven, I bring to our friendship a reverent, tender love.
01:12:16: I see as no man can see, that God in you The Jesus of the
01:12:24: Oxford Group supposedly says, I need you more than you need me. I await the commands of my children.
01:12:32: Looking to me, all your thoughts are God -inspired. Act on them and you will be led on. I do not delay my second coming.
01:12:40: My followers delay it. It's a bunch of gnostic garbage. One of the telling things is that Buckman is supposed to be this divinely inspired soul surgeon who's helping these people confess their sins and find freedom and all these other things.
01:13:03: One of the reasons that they downplay Buckman, you know, AA is founded in 35. 1936,
01:13:10: Frank Buckman is on the cover of Time magazine with the title Cultist Buckman. He's on the cover, full cover picture of him.
01:13:21: What precipitated this was that he had become very good friends with Heinrich Himmler.
01:13:31: Himmler's secretary was a member of the Oxford Group. He was Himmler's personal guest at the 34 and 35
01:13:39: Nuremberg rallies. And then he went to the Berlin Olympics, and he came back, and he did an interview from the annex of Sam Shoemaker's church, saying,
01:13:54: I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the
01:14:00: Antichrist, communism. Sounds like some of the allegedly reformed churches that are growing in number that have been attacking
01:14:11: James White and other people who are actually— You under the sun, isn't there? Yeah, I know.
01:14:17: Go ahead. So what's the connection in all this?
01:14:26: This is the Oxford Group that supposedly helped Bill Wilson get sober. This is the
01:14:32: Oxford Group that Dr. Bob Smith had been a member of for two and a half years before he ever met
01:14:39: Bill Wilson. They form these Oxford Groups, which are—
01:14:45: Instead of it, the Oxford Groups tended to go for the elite in their house parties and things like this.
01:14:55: And they had confessions of drunkenness, but Wilson and Smith basically recognized they don't really fit with the other parts of the
01:15:12: Oxford Group as much. And so they focused more on alcoholics. This is the backdrop to it all.
01:15:22: What does Wilson do? He repackages the teachings of the
01:15:31: Oxford Group. According to Sam Shoemaker, by going into quiet time, he receives a direct revelation of the
01:15:43: Twelve Steps. They are God -given, according to Sam Shoemaker and according to Bill Wilson.
01:15:50: Sam Shoemaker, an Episcopal rector, equates them with the
01:15:58: Ten Commandments given to Moses at Mount Sinai. This is very religious from the get -go.
01:16:10: I think God is mentioned in the book 277 times. And there are claims that the big book is given by divine inspiration as well.
01:16:20: In the video, we've got Sam Shoemaker saying the Twelve Steps came from God. And they claim that they offer spirituality without religion.
01:16:39: But here's a speech from Bill Wilson in 1951. We've got the actual audio in the video.
01:16:46: For 15 years, you and I have watched a great building under construction. To us, it is something more than a building.
01:16:53: It is a temple, a veritable cathedral of the Spirit, in which more than 100 ,000 of us now stand, knowing a freedom and a brotherhood and a sisterhood, the like of which we could never have dreamed in other days, such as our cathedral of the
01:17:09: Spirit. What you have with Bill Wilson is a man who claims, like Frank Buckman, to be receiving direct revelations from God.
01:17:28: And he's supposedly empowering you, but just like in the Oxford group, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
01:17:38: Everyone could get their own revelations, but they all got trumped by Frank's revelation. Well, in AA, Bill Wilson's revelations trumped everybody.
01:17:50: And what you have is a counterfeit church. It has its own confessionals.
01:18:00: It has its own pilgrimage sites. It's got many of the trappings of a church.
01:18:10: And what do they point you to? They point you to a God of your own understanding, and they tell you that God can be a doorknob.
01:18:21: Bill Wilson, in the video, we've got him saying that the group can be your higher power.
01:18:31: This is idolatry. The point we try to make in the video is that our drunkenness is a symptom of a deeper problem.
01:18:46: We are in rebellion against the God of the universe. We're desperately trying to numb ourselves, distract ourselves, and not deal with him.
01:18:57: What does Bill Wilson offer you? He offers you chain smoking, lots of coffee, lots of meetings.
01:19:08: He experimented with LSD for years, trying to help bring a spiritual experience, a spiritual awakening to people.
01:19:19: He promised it in the first edition of The Big Book.
01:19:26: That got changed in later editions to A Spiritual Awakening. But how does he go looking for a spiritual experience?
01:19:36: LSD. And he wants people to take LSD. We deal with it in the video.
01:19:42: He's getting other people to do it. And he says it's harmless as aspirin. One of the things that we bring out in the video is that when
01:19:55: Bill Wilson went into the hospital trying to get sober after meeting with Ebby Thatcher and hearing about the
01:20:07: Oxford groups and everything, part of the treatment was hourly doses of belladonna.
01:20:14: Belladonna is a hallucinogen. And when
01:20:21: Bill Wilson meets, the guy's name escapes me, he's the partner of Timothy Leary in dealing with LSD.
01:20:38: Oh, his name, Houston Smith, that's who
01:20:43: I was trying to think of. Houston Smith was an early promoter of LSD as opening your mind and becoming at one with the universe and this kind of stuff.
01:20:56: He was friends with Bill Wilson. Wilson told him that his first LSD trip was a dead ringer for what he had experienced in the town's hospital back in 1935.
01:21:12: This is not helpful to people. Can you take biblical principles about taking responsibility for having hurt people and confessing that to them and trying to make amends?
01:21:24: Yes. Is that helpful? Sure. But it's just moralism if that's all you really deal with.
01:21:35: And AA tells you that they are your only hope for staying sober. They tell you that you are an alcoholic and you always will be an alcoholic.
01:21:46: And if you ever so much as taste alcohol, you're going to spiral out of control. There are people for whom it is wise not to go near alcohol again.
01:21:59: That would be me. The reality. Oh, and, you know, it's one of those things, you know, as a pastor,
01:22:06: I tell people, don't be stupid, you know, be careful about putting yourself in the way of temptation.
01:22:12: But there are a lot of folks that were drunks, that their identity is now in Christ and it's not the same temptation to them anymore.
01:22:26: And, you know, we're all different. But Alcoholics Anonymous tells you, no, no, you, your identity is as an alcoholic.
01:22:39: And, you know, for some people, it's going to be my identity is in Christ as a weak sinner who doesn't want to go up to the edge of temptation.
01:22:50: More power to you. But this idea that it's a disease. No, it's a sin.
01:23:00: The allergy model that's put forward by Dr. Silkworth in the big book, it's been discredited over and over.
01:23:11: It's not this. There are people who are more susceptible to some temptations than others, sometimes because of organic issues.
01:23:28: James White and I joke about our Scottish ancestry. Scots -Irish supposedly have the lowest natural level of dopamine of any ethnic group in the world.
01:23:40: And it's claimed that this explains our pugnaciousness. And I joke that, you know, of course, you know, we're the most clear -headed bunch of people in the world.
01:23:49: We know when we've been in salt. So, you know, you know, the
01:23:55: Swedes, on the other hand, who have the highest natural level, you know, it's like they've been, you know, a token on a joint.
01:24:03: And, you know, they're just oblivious to how everyone is. But this is the classic case of the blind leading the blind.
01:24:17: Bill Wilson goes from drunkenness, you know, compulsive drinking to compulsive womanizing.
01:24:27: He's chasing numerous women. He has an ongoing affair from 1955 to 1971 when he dies.
01:24:37: And we deal with this in the video. And this lady who, you know, was part of the office, she says, it was good for Bill.
01:24:48: You know, she loved him almost, but hey, this affair was a good thing for him.
01:24:56: He, you know, he's a compulsive womanizer. He's engaged in all kinds of occultic stuff.
01:25:06: He nearly converted to Roman Catholicism. He had a priest that he convinced to drop acid with him.
01:25:15: But this is the guy that's supposed to be the great spiritual leader of this movement.
01:25:25: This is from Pasadena. This is something he directly wrote. The Ouija board got moving in earnest.
01:25:33: What followed was the usual was a was the fairly usual experience. It was a strange melange of Aristotle, St.
01:25:41: Francis, diverse archangels with odd names, deceased friends, some in purgatory and others doing nicely.
01:25:49: Thank you. There were malign and mischievous ones of all descriptions, telling the vices quite beyond my kin, even as former alcoholics.
01:25:58: Then the seemingly virtuous entities would elbow them out with messages of comfort, information, advice, and sometimes just your nonsense.
01:26:11: This is the model. What AA has done is it has provided people a way to change their compulsions.
01:26:28: Right. There are some who literally say their god is a group of drunks, you know,
01:26:35: G -O -D, group of drunks. Um, the, the, the, the organization is their higher power and it's not helpful.
01:26:52: You know, can, can the 12 steps in themselves lead someone to sobriety?
01:26:58: Yes. Most definitely. Can they prove helpful as compared to nothing?
01:27:05: They can. But since AA stresses anonymity, the best estimates that people can make is that they don't really help people get sober any better than on their own, but they tell people they're their only hope.
01:27:25: And you have to keep going to the meetings. You have to keep, um, identifying yourself with them.
01:27:34: And no, it's, it's, it's, it's not your only hope.
01:27:41: And it's not, uh, it's not dealing with the fundamental issue that people who are drunks are estranged from God.
01:27:51: You know, first Corinthians six, um, if, if you're living in drunkenness, it's the same as living in adultery or homosexuality and litany of other sins.
01:28:03: It shows that your heart's never been changed. Uh, can
01:28:09: Christians fall into sin? Of course, but the Holy Spirit doesn't leave them there. Right.
01:28:15: Let me just chime in. Let me just chime in briefly because, uh, you may disagree with what
01:28:24: I'm about to say. I don't know how much of it you will disagree with, but if somebody's addiction, their enslavement to booze or drugs has gotten so prominent in their lives that their, their sins perhaps have become publicly scandalous, their sins, their addictions may have destroyed their marriages, their sins may have led to, uh, drunk driving accidents and perhaps even vehicular homicide.
01:29:08: They've actually killed somebody or permanently injured somebody by hitting them because they were driving drunk or stoned or high.
01:29:19: Uh, I think it's moronic for a person who gets sober, clean and sober, who has especially been involved in any of those things
01:29:32: I listed to return to an attempt at moderate drinking. I just think it's moronic.
01:29:38: Um, and if people were to see you sitting there with your glass of wine or tumbler of scotch or whatever your favorite beverage is, they're going to think this guy's just right back where he started.
01:29:58: They're not, even if you're, even if you are responsibly handling it. Um, I don't, because it's not necessary.
01:30:09: As much as there are reformed people out there who think consumption of alcohol is the sixth point of Calvinism, it's not necessary to drink alcohol.
01:30:21: It's actually the seventh. You're supposed to grow a beard. Well, neither one of you, neither you or I have.
01:30:28: I don't have a beard either, but although I kind of look scruffy, but, um, I, I know that I will never, unless of course
01:30:39: I am stumbling and, uh, backsliding again, I will never drink alcohol.
01:30:45: Now, uh, I am not, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
01:30:52: I am not, uh, I'm not at the point where I think even having wine in the
01:31:00: Lord's supper is to be avoided because my church, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church, does serve, uh, fermented wine.
01:31:10: And I had no hesitation to take it because I knew that tiny amount of wine, uh, and the reason
01:31:18: I'm drinking it would never trigger running to the, uh, bar or liquor store and getting hammered.
01:31:28: Uh, I drink, or should I say I take cough medicine when I'm sick, which very often has alcohol in it and et cetera.
01:31:36: Uh, so I'm not, I'm not, uh, a hyper, uh, opposer of any kind of alcohol in my system.
01:31:45: But at the same time, I just think it's stupid and even selfish for somebody, oh,
01:31:51: I just really want to join the boys with a snifter of brandy, uh, in the, in the library, uh, even though I killed somebody in my automobile or my marriage was destroyed because of my drunkenness.
01:32:03: I just think it's moronic and you can respond to that if you want. Yeah. I, I definitely don't think it's, it's a mark of Christian maturity that we grow a beard or we drink beer or, you know, it's, you mean you say you grow a beard for the reasons that you said?
01:32:22: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you, if somebody wants to grow a beard, more power to you. Um, if you, if you, if, if somebody, uh, if somebody likes beer, they,
01:32:36: I, I, I believe in Christian liberty. Are there people who have, uh, compulsive personalities that need to be careful about such things?
01:32:47: Of course. Are there people with histories? Yes. Pastorally, um, can
01:32:53: I warn people of the dangers? Yes. I've, I've seen people who were drunks, profess faith, and then supposedly as a mark of their
01:33:05: Christian maturity, they started drinking again only to fall right back into drunkenness. Right. Right. Um, and that's stupid.
01:33:13: Right. Um, the word I was looking for was fanatic. I'm not a fanatic about, uh, alcohol consumption, but I, but I believe that it's dangerous.
01:33:24: I, I agree. And I, uh, a friend of mine, uh, he was sober for 20, 25 years and he reached a point in his life where he would drink one toddy, uh, once in a while.
01:33:45: That's a, to me, that's a matter of Christian liberty. And, you know, I told him like I would tell anybody be careful.
01:33:53: Um, the, my, my frustration is not in warning people to be careful.
01:34:02: AA says your identity is as an alcoholic. Right. Right. And I will never identify myself that way.
01:34:10: Right. Your, your identity in Christ. Right. Um, now that identity in Christ, like I said, it can be, you know, if, if we're honest, we're weak, foolish people that, um, need to be really careful about doing stupid things.
01:34:28: Um, but, you know, our identity is in Christ and there's a freedom in that. And so, you know, my, my concern is that there are an awful lot of people, you know, as I said at the very beginning, that think that AA started as a
01:34:47: Christian organization and that it can still be a Christian organization. Yeah.
01:34:52: There are churches that adopt the 12 steps and just call it, uh, I knew a dear brother.
01:34:58: I love him so much. He's in heaven now, but he started an organization a years ago called 12 steps for Christ.
01:35:06: And he merely made the higher power, uh, but he made it
01:35:13: Jesus Christ as of necessity. And there was very little different, uh, in the 12 steps, if anything that I can recall, other than it was clearly a
01:35:24: Christian gathering. Now, uh, I don't agree with that either, even though he had wonderful motives.
01:35:33: Yeah. There's a, there's this natural progression in the 12 steps. The final step is this spiritual awakening.
01:35:42: Uh, you know, the original version was experience. Uh, the current version is a spiritual awakening is supposed to follow all these things.
01:35:49: And I think that that's completely backwards. We, we need a spiritual awakening to the holiness of God, to understand the seriousness of our sin.
01:36:00: We need, you know, we need, we need to understand our, our, our sin and misery, our guilt, uh, before we, before anything else proceeds.
01:36:12: Now, while we are criticizing the 12 step movement, AANA, et cetera, we have to rebuke the church because many of the reasons that even
01:36:25: Christians can be drawn to these groups is that the local congregation that they're in has nothing to offer in the realm of accountability.
01:36:37: Uh, the regularity of a brother or brethren reaching out to a person who has struggled with addiction to, to, uh, in love and with grace, hold them accountable.
01:36:51: I'm not talking about like turning your church into a police state, but you know, the, the, there are things that are offered by the, uh, recovery groups, secular recovery groups, which are not really secular.
01:37:08: They're really religions, um, false religions. But, uh, there are things offered by them that are absent in many churches.
01:37:17: You know, there are churches that will say, all you need is listen to the sermon every
01:37:23: Sunday, take notes and, uh, you know, go home and, and stay away from booze or drugs, you know?
01:37:31: Um, but am I making sense here? Oh yeah. And you know, there are others that have, that go back to the error of Keswick that a spiritual experience is going to bring an immediate cessation of all known sin.
01:37:47: Are there people who have had a radical conversion that have no desire left for alcohol?
01:37:55: Yes. Um, but they're not the majority.
01:38:00: Um, and sometimes, you know, alcohol goes by the wayside, but then other compulsions try to come in and take their place.
01:38:09: Um, we, we need to be upfront with folks that, you know, um, and this goes into a whole host of other things.
01:38:21: I mean, the, the whole, um, uh, gay Christian movement, you know, there are people that have essentially followed these same moralistic ideas that, uh, or mystical things, you know, that they can pray away the gay and they pray and pray and they're still tempted.
01:38:42: And they're like, oh, well, God just made me this way. And it's like, no, um, the, the nature of Christian life.
01:38:51: Yes. Some, some of us are delivered from some specific temptations, but we're, uh, you know,
01:39:00: Romans seven comes after Romans six. Uh, it's, it's
01:39:05: Paul, the believer who says, oh, wretched man that I am, uh, who will deliver me from this body of death.
01:39:13: We're going to be wrestling with sin until the day we die or Christ comes back for us, whichever comes first for you and me, probably we'll be going to him before he comes for us.
01:39:23: Um, but it's, it's not this perfectionism that if you just pray hard enough, if you just work hard enough, if you just get quiet enough, you just do this, that, the other that, you know, then the temptations go away.
01:39:38: No, what's the answer. The answer is turn to Christ. And when you're in temptation, go to your knees, go to the word and go in fellowship with God's people.
01:39:51: And it's a, I think a much more realistic biblical view of sanctification.
01:40:01: And unfortunately there are a lot of churches don't want to do that anymore. They want to entertain people.
01:40:07: Right. Um, by the way, let me quickly, let me quickly plug the
01:40:13: Christian ministry where I found sobriety, uh, over a decade ago after backsliding into scandalous levels of drunkenness, uh,
01:40:25: Hebron Colony in Boone, North Carolina. Uh, they also, Hebron Colony is an all -male, uh, ministry.
01:40:35: They have a sister ministry in Santee, South Carolina called
01:40:40: Grace Home. But I love Hebron Colony. I have nothing but the fondest memories of it.
01:40:48: And I sing its praises whenever I have the opportunity. Their website is hebroncolony .org.
01:40:57: Hebroncolony .org. It's free of charge. One of the few addiction recovery programs anywhere in the
01:41:06: United States that's free. Uh, it's the oldest continuously running alcohol recovery program for men in the
01:41:16: United States started when a Presbyterian pastor who was in the
01:41:22: Southern Presbyterian Church denomination left that church because of its, uh, increasingly being overrun by liberalism.
01:41:33: He left the denomination and moved to Boone, North Carolina that saw men, uh, veterans returning home from World War II and great numbers, uh, uh, becoming alcoholics drunkards.
01:41:51: And he said, something's got to be done about this. And he started Hebron Colony and they do not use a 12 -step imitation.
01:42:02: Uh, in fact, alcohol and drugs are barely ever even mentioned.
01:42:10: It's really a Christian discipleship ministry to foster, uh, the restoration of backsliders and the salvation of lost men.
01:42:22: And, uh, you're not even permitted to give your war stories as they're called, uh, stand up and give the gory details of your addiction as is, uh, encouraged and done for most of the
01:42:41: AA and NA meetings. They don't do that. Uh, they may have a guest speaker who gives his testimony that may involve some of that, but they do not glorify the sin.
01:42:53: So I just wanted to make sure that I mentioned that group because it is a wonderful organization and I am still sober over a decade later and I don't even, uh, have any temptation in that area.
01:43:07: Now, I'm not saying that everybody will walk out of there with the same mindset I have, but I can sit with other
01:43:14: Christians who are drinking wine with dinner and it doesn't even faze me. Uh, so anyway,
01:43:20: I'm sorry you could go ahead. Oh, and you know what we got to do? We got to go to our final break. Uh, so don't go away.
01:43:27: We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors. This is
01:43:40: Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
01:43:45: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.
01:43:55: Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our
01:44:07: Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.
01:44:13: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:44:27: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
01:44:36: Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.
01:44:45: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign
01:44:50: Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
01:45:09: I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.
01:45:16: I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother
01:45:23: Chris Arnson in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,
01:45:37: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, cvbbs .com,
01:45:49: I want to enable you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that the
01:45:55: Reformers, the Puritans, and the great Christian minds of today have to offer, and at affordable prices.
01:46:02: Not only does cvbbs .com offer up to 50 % off retail prices, but you'll get an added 5 % off orders of $50 or more by using promo code
01:46:17: IRON, I -R -O -N, an added 5 % off all of your orders of $50 or more from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:46:30: That's cvbbs .com, making the joy of reading the finest in Christian literature more affordable.
01:46:39: Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.
01:47:02: This is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program.
01:47:12: SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.
01:47:23: We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com.
01:47:32: But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
01:47:46: Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
01:47:53: In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt
01:47:58: God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.
01:48:05: I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
01:48:12: That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
01:48:24: I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the
01:48:32: Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
01:48:40: That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.
01:48:50: That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
01:49:09: I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a
01:49:29: Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York and play our role in fulfilling the great commission supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth.
01:49:42: We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.
01:49:48: At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
01:50:05: We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
01:50:22: Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear
01:50:30: God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the
01:50:35: Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit lindbrookbaptist .org.
01:50:42: That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
01:50:54: It is the gift of God, not a result of words, so that no one may boast of the
01:51:00: Lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself. I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
01:51:12: Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.
01:51:21: At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune
01:51:37: God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.
01:51:45: In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every
01:51:51: Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.
01:51:59: That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.
01:52:05: And folks, I don't want you to forget that this program is also paid for in part by my very dear longtime friend for decades,
01:52:13: Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law in the law firm of Buttafuoco & Associates. If you've been the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the
01:52:24: United States, call Dan at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,
01:52:32: 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. Please tell Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law of Buttafuoco &
01:52:39: Associates, that you heard about his law firm from Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
01:52:45: Also, keep your ears open for a new annual sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
01:52:53: The wonderful institution, financial institution, is Lebanon Federal Credit Union in Lebanon, Pennsylvania.
01:53:01: The president and CEO is a born -again believer in Christ and committed
01:53:07: Christian and a Reformed Christian. And for more details on this wonderful group, go to LebanonFCU, for federalcreditunion .org,
01:53:20: LebanonFCU .org. We are now back with my guest today,
01:53:25: Jason Wallace. We have been talking about the theme of his latest documentary,
01:53:31: The Cult of Alcoholics Anonymous. And we do have an anonymous listener who asks, should we always seek to encourage someone that we know who is involved in the 12 -step groups to leave those groups, even if we see great benefit in their lives and fruit from them?
01:53:55: That's a very good question, and I may have a different answer, depending upon the circumstances.
01:54:05: I'll give you an example. I know somebody who's an atheist who's finally going to church.
01:54:11: His wife is a Christian, and he began his sobriety through an
01:54:20: AA -affiliated group and is maintaining his sobriety.
01:54:26: And even though, perhaps, eventually he should be encouraged to leave that group, he's not even a
01:54:32: Christian yet. And I don't know if that's the primary thing that one should be concerned with until he becomes a
01:54:39: Christian. But if you want to chime in with your own thoughts, Jason. Yeah, basically, the
01:54:48: Oxford group made people have spiritual experiences. I'll put it that way.
01:54:55: They made them feel, you know, get rushes of emotion. They gave temporary solutions.
01:55:02: But ultimately, they failed people. They weren't changed lives. AA is the same way.
01:55:08: It's the same kind of thing that you go into a group, you're able to take off the mask, you're able to admit things that you haven't wanted to talk about before.
01:55:18: And there's a catharsis, there's a feeling of liberation. But then what?
01:55:25: The God of the Oxford group failed. The reason the group fell apart was because they didn't stop
01:55:34: World War II. They said they were the world's only hope for peace. They were going to stop another great war.
01:55:41: They didn't. All their moralism didn't amount to real change.
01:55:47: It made people feel good for a little bit, but it distracted them from the real solutions. For those who are old enough to remember, another splinter off of the
01:56:00: Oxford group's moral rearmament was up with people. They offer a saccharine moralism.
01:56:10: They sing, you can't live crooked and be straight or something like that.
01:56:17: It's just a bunch of moralism. We need to be pointing people to a God beyond their imaginations, not a
01:56:25: God of their imaginations, a God who is infinitely holy, a God whom the heavens can't contain.
01:56:32: And yet the second person in the Trinity is the one nailed to the cross for sinners like us.
01:56:40: We've got better than 12 Steps. We've got better than moralism.
01:56:46: We've got Jesus. And the church needs to take responsibility and actually disciple people and not send them to AA to reminisce about how much fun they used to have when they were drunk.
01:57:00: Well, let me add to that last anonymous listener's question about whether you should encourage people to leave
01:57:09: AA or NA. On top of that, should churches be allowing
01:57:14: AA and NA to use their facilities? Because most of these meetings are being held.
01:57:20: I would guess probably 99 % of them are being held in churches, aren't they? A whole bunch.
01:57:29: And, you know, it's a different gospel. It's a different Jesus.
01:57:35: It's not a religiously neutral group, is it? As they claim. They say they're not a religion, but they're spiritual.
01:57:43: Well, that's hogwash, isn't it? Yes. I mean, there are sponsored groups by churches that, you know, they're trying to make clear that the biblical
01:57:57: God is supposed to be your higher power. But the vast majority of the groups, the reports
01:58:03: I hear is they will kick you out if you try to say that Jesus is your higher power. They don't want to hear it.
01:58:10: Oh, yeah. There was an NA group meeting in the church building of my former church on Long Island, Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville in the 1980s, where I was saved.
01:58:23: They had me—the church was allowing the NA group to meet there. They said, Chris, will you go to one of these meetings and report back to us what's going on?
01:58:32: I gave my personal testimony of salvation in Christ and handed out booklets on addiction by Jay Adams.
01:58:41: The guy running the meeting said, can I speak to you for a moment? And by the way, people were flocking, they were swarming around me to get those booklets.
01:58:50: The guy running the meeting asked me to come outside into the parking lot. He told me, you can't do that here.
01:58:57: And I said, what? You're having a meeting in a Christian church. I certainly can do this. And we told them that they could no longer have their meetings in the church.
01:59:07: But we're out of time, Jason, and I definitely want to have you back for part two of this discussion, perhaps in two weeks, because we're already filled next week.
01:59:18: But please let our listeners know how they can view this documentary. It's on YouTube.
01:59:26: The channel is Ancient Paths TV. That's ancient, all one word,
01:59:32: Ancient Paths, P -A -T -H -S TV. And the website—
01:59:38: I used to have a television program here. You can also just go to gospelutah .org, which is our church website, and you can find links there.
01:59:45: And we're out of time, and I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater