Should Christians Show Pronoun Hospitality?

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Welcome to Bible Bashed, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:38

We're your hosts Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, should

01:43

Christians show pronoun hospitality? Now this is a topic that I think has been really, it's been talked about for a very long time.

01:52

I remember, Tim, when I first started at seminary, one of the big talking points with my peers in class was this idea of should we use people's preferred pronouns, even if we disagree with their understanding of sexuality and, you know, gender.

02:17

And I, it's funny because I remember my professor was actually arguing that we should.

02:24

We should show pronoun hospitality. What was he teaching? It was a, man, what was it?

02:33

It was my first semester. I think it was some sort of family counseling class, maybe.

02:41

I don't remember the official name of it, but it was something like that. And it was actually a,

02:47

I don't know how old she was, but I think a younger woman who was teaching the class, probably, maybe not even 30 yet.

02:57

I can't, I never asked her, but she looked really young. And she was arguing that we should actually show pronoun hospitality, but then a lot of my fellow peers were saying, no, no, you know,

03:12

I'm not gonna, if someone says, hey, I'm a duck, I'm not gonna start calling them a duck. I remember that line very clearly from those conversations.

03:22

But one really interesting thing is, actually, J .D.

03:28

Greer, of all people, has weighed in again on this topic, right?

03:35

And I guess I don't listen to, he has a podcast that I don't listen to.

03:42

For good reason. Right. And I guess he had talked about this, and stirred up some controversy by, at the very least, implying that we should use people's preferred pronouns.

03:58

But to his credit, he came out with a second episode trying to clarify some points that he made in the first one.

04:07

And we actually have this article that I just wanted to show a brief snippet of.

04:13

And this article is from Protestia. But right here, you can, I guess we can leave a link for this article in the description on the video on YouTube.

04:27

But I thought this paragraph was pretty interesting, really because when

04:35

I read this right here, I want to clarify some things that I said. I was expecting,

04:42

Tim, I told you this already, but I was expecting a very vague non -answer, something that doesn't really actually, clearly define his stance on the issue, but would probably be enough for a lot of people.

05:04

But to my surprise, I'll read this last paragraph, and it was at least pretty encouraging.

05:11

It says, So you know, if somebody has transitioned, if Tommy, you know, now wants to go by Tara and wants to be called she, her instead of he, him, should you consent to that and go along with it?

05:27

Let me actually use a phrase I first heard when Andrew Walker, because I really liked this framing.

05:34

The answer to that question begins and ends with no. And the reason I say that is because I think as believers, we have to be crystal clear on the truth.

05:44

So the answer begins and ends with no, that we should not use someone's preferred pronouns when we know that Tommy is a male, because that's how

05:52

God created him. So when I read that, I was actually, I was pleasantly surprised because like I said,

05:58

I was expecting a non -answer from him in general. And now there's some other things in this article that are a little, are

06:07

I think concerning still from him, but at least with that section,

06:14

I was like, oh, okay, good. At least, you know, well, at least you didn't give some kind of, well, you know.

06:21

I think it's still, I mean, I hear what you're saying and I think it's still pretty weasley. You think it's still weasley, okay.

06:28

No, I mean, I'm glad that at the very least he's clear about the answer begins and ends with no.

06:37

I mean, he's mostly clear, but I'm glad that at the very least, you know, the obvious is being pointed out that we shouldn't deny reality.

06:48

But then, you know, as is the case with many of these guys when they make statements along these lines, they don't come across clear in terms of the nature of, you know, the error that's being made.

07:05

So, you know, he is an individual that is arguing for pronoun hospitality and now he's packaging the response as like a clarification on what he originally said, which is then excused, right?

07:18

So it's excused by the fact that, well, the cultural conversation has evolved and changed over time and clarified.

07:25

And it's like, well, no, it hasn't changed at all, okay. The same thing has happened since then.

07:30

So, you know, this is typically when biblical counselors encourage people to ask forgiveness about things, we typically encourage them to use the word, you know, to say,

07:45

I've sinned, you know, please forgive me. I was wrong, you know. And to be very specific about the nature of their sin, to not excuse it with if, ands, buts, or maybes, to not try to, you know, explain their error away.

07:58

You know, I sinned, but then, you know, things have changed. And let me clarify, you know, what

08:03

I've done. And so I think like the nature of the clarification itself, like clarification isn't really a strong enough language to use in a situation like this.

08:16

You actively led people into error. You encouraged them to sin. And then not only that, you were scandalized by the fact that people were rebuking you for it.

08:25

And, you know, those individuals who were rebuking you were the unloving ones, the intolerant ones, the ones who are, you know, basically in your mind, like what he did was throw them under the bus.

08:38

And then now he's, you know, come around to the good side. And I'm glad that he's come around mostly to, you know, a positive position, but let's not pretend like nothing wrong happened there.

08:49

And that you're simply just clarifying your position, you know, for one. No, this isn't a clarification.

08:55

This is a total 180 different position that you're adopting now. So did he, my understanding, because I don't really keep up with him at all.

09:04

My understanding was that he put out an episode before this that I guess in his mind wasn't clear, but it sounds like you're saying, no, he was actively encouraging people to use pronouns.

09:16

Oh yeah, he was definitely encouraging people to use pronouns, hospitality, and that's been something that's been going on for quite some time now.

09:25

This isn't some kind of clarification. This is just a change of position here.

09:31

Right. You know, and this isn't something that's, you know, crystallized in his mind. This is just, you know, there's two options here.

09:38

You either show pronoun hospitality or don't. Okay. You're encouraging people to follow Preston Sprinkles' example of showing pronoun hospitality, and now you're not.

09:46

Now you're saying it's wrong, mostly wrong. So, you know, I'm glad that he now realizes it's mostly wrong, but you do have to deal with the different situation.

09:58

Yeah, and like I said, you know, I was trying to clarify. I do think there are still some concerning things.

10:04

I mean, later, you can go read the article later, but later on he basically does say, you know, still call someone by their preferred pronouns in a hypothetical situation that he gives, and so he hasn't really fully committed to the position.

10:21

Yeah, the situation he had in mind was, you know, if you're in counseling, if you're in some kind of counseling situation, and I guess like, you know, the dad of someone is there, and the dad is using the pronouns of, you know, his, you know, gender confused person, right, if you want to put it that way.

10:40

And then in order to advance the conversation, you may use like those pronouns just to move the conversation along, but then, you know, what needs to come before or after that is very clear.

10:54

I don't believe that these pronouns are actually what you're saying they are, but let me use them for a minute just to move the conversation along.

11:03

And I think, well, that's the whole point of pronoun hospitality in general that you're arguing for is that somehow it's loving and gracious in certain situations to use the wrong pronouns in order to get you into a door to, you know, have a conversation to be loving, you know, but now he's just basically narrowed the acceptable range of doing that and then added a qualifier to say that it can only be a temporary strategy that needs to be followed up with a repudiation of it of some sort.

11:35

It's like, well, yeah, it's, let's just, you know, not use them at all. Right.

11:41

Yeah. So, you know, when it comes to the question, should you show pronoun hospitality, your answer is no, right?

11:49

Yeah. No, under any circumstance. No, absolutely not. Never. Oh, you know, you'll have to kill me before I do that.

11:59

No, that's it. That's the right answer. How are you going to do it if you're dead? Yeah. Well, you'd have to, like, kill me and then, like, possess my corpse and make it, you know.

12:11

With the AI chip that can. Yeah, yeah. That's the only way that that's going to happen. Yeah. Oh, okay.

12:19

Okay. So why not show pronoun hospitality? What's his name?

12:25

Andrew Sprinkle, right? Preston Sprinkle. Preston Sprinkle. Yeah. Who is that, by the way?

12:31

I don't know who that is. I'm unfamiliar. He's just, you know, yeah, he's a guy.

12:37

I think he used, he graduated from Master's Seminary, but then he's basically just become kind of a woke guy out there who is arguing for a lot of crazy stuff, particularly as it relates to, you know, sin of sodomy and things along those lines.

12:55

So he's just an unreliable person that you. I mean, his name is Preston Sprinkle. Come on.

13:03

That tells you all you need to know, you know. Okay. A sound argument if I ever heard one.

13:10

Yeah, that's right. Okay. All right. So no, we shouldn't show pronoun hospitality.

13:16

Why not? Why not? I mean, it's just, it's a dumb expression. I mean, if nothing else, it's just a dumb expression.

13:24

I mean, it does feel cringey to say pronoun hospitality. I mean, if you can't, if you don't cringe when you hear the expression, like you should, you know.

13:33

So, I mean, but no, I mean. Yeah, just spell it out for those who maybe aren't cringing, but think, okay, well, maybe

13:41

I should be cringing, but I don't know why I'm not cringing. Well, I don't know how to explain that part, but I'll, like if you don't know to be cringing and you're not cringing and you don't understand why you should be, then

13:52

I just, I don't know what to say to you. Like, as far as that goes, like you just, something's messed up there and you should pray about that.

13:58

But no, I mean, it really is about bearing false witness. It is about lying.

14:04

It is about affirming something that isn't true. So this is a demand that's being made.

14:10

And this is just generally the left's tactic as it relates to, you know, a lot of these issues and a lot of these subjects.

14:17

The left's basic stance is to try to seize control over the dictionary and to compel speech in certain ways and to force individuals essentially to deny reality in a wide variety of instances.

14:29

And this is just, you know, this is denying reality. Yeah, and I mean, even to the point of basically just hijacking biblical sayings, right?

14:38

Not that pronoun hospitality is a biblical idea, but then like hospitality is a biblical idea.

14:45

And so they're hijacking it to mean something else. It's the same as, you know, like we did, we just recently did that episode on, you know, should you love your neighbor by eating bugs, right?

14:57

Like they're hijacking that, those types of things, and trying to make them mean what

15:03

God never meant them to mean, right? Right, so you're trying to, you know, basically take a biblical idea of showing hospitality to someone and then you're, you know, perverting that idea and co -opting that idea and putting it in service of an evil agenda.

15:19

So, you know, we don't – in order to show hospitality to individuals, you don't lie. You never have to sin in order, like that's like in order to show hospitality to someone.

15:29

That's like, we're just talking about a very different concept here. You know, so. Basically what they're asking you to do is show hospitality to their sin.

15:39

That's right. Yep. Yep. Yep. Which obviously like Jesus never did.

15:45

I mean, you know, you can go and read through the gospels and see how he interacts with sinners.

15:53

Now, he's, you know, he's definitely spending his time with sinners. There's no arguing there.

15:59

No one's pushing back on that idea. Not the way people think, you know. Yeah, it's not in like a, hey, we're all buddy -buddy kind of.

16:08

Hey, let's all get together and watch Game of Thrones together. Right, right. For three years before I ever get to share in the gospel with you.

16:14

Right, right. Because I want to be your, you know, because I – you know, let me go hang out with you while you're engaging in prostitution, you know.

16:23

Let me work up the courage. In a non -judgmental way. I'll work up the courage to share the gospel with you in six years and then you'll still get mad at me anyways, you know.

16:32

Right, and then I'll waste it all my time, yeah. No, I mean, certainly Jesus was a friend of sinners, but then what that – that doesn't mean what people think it meant for one, you know.

16:42

And for two, I mean, he did – he certainly, you know, loved sinners, but then Jesus, you know, if you look at his evangelistic strategy, it was pretty direct and it was pretty quick, you know.

16:52

So the woman, you know, you have the woman at the well and you see his encounter with her and,

16:57

I mean, immediately he brings up, like, the nature of her sin, that she's had seven husbands and the one she's living with now isn't, you know, her husband.

17:05

And so, like, his strategy certainly isn't the one that most people think.

17:11

I don't know if I've ever been that bold. So, I still have a ways to go.

17:19

Yeah, I think, you know, in biblical counseling, you know, there's opportunities at the very least to go there, you know, fairly quickly.

17:27

But, you know, I think most of the time Jesus goes there pretty quickly. So, is it – okay, so we shouldn't be showing pronoun hospitality.

17:38

Is it a sin to use someone else's preferred pronouns?

17:44

So not to have, you know, preferred pronouns for yourself, to use someone else's pronouns. Yeah, I mean, that would be what the concept of showing pronoun hospitality is.

17:55

You're essentially using the pronouns that they prefer as a means of hospitality that's meant to say, hey,

18:01

I love you, I care about you, I'm on your side. And, you know, I may disagree, but I'm going to show you the respect, to call you the way you identify, as far as that goes.

18:10

And so, no, I can't think of any conceivable situation where anyone should ever do that.

18:17

I mean, that's just – I mean, part of the problem is that we've done that at every single level in our society. We think in order to love people, we have to essentially lie to them.

18:25

And that's what we do. I mean, that's what we're told to do with the COVID stuff. Like, we're told to lie to people in order to love them.

18:31

Like, lying to you means I need to put a cloth mask over my face that I know doesn't work.

18:36

You know, selectively as I walk into buildings, you know, stand certain arbitrary distances apart.

18:42

You know, like, put, like, plastic barriers up between me that only go up to our face and there's an air hole underneath, you know, or even air holes to the side, you know.

18:53

And so, like, we're basically living in a society that demands that you lie to people, you know, in a fairly comprehensive way.

19:03

I mean, we've been asked to lie to people in a fairly comprehensive way as it relates to the race discussion.

19:09

So you have to deny everything that your eyes are seeing as it relates to the race discussion and basically just pretend as if, like, you're living in some, like, you know, pervasively racist society and show special, you know, privileges to members of certain skin colors who are engaging in destructive patterns and habits.

19:32

And you have to pretend, like, all that as a result of something else other than their own personal choices.

19:38

You know, we're told comprehensively to lie to women, like, as men. You have to, like, if you want to love your wife, you want to have a good relationship with her, you basically lie to her in a pretty systematic way and tell her the things that she wants to hear in order to make her feel better and not, you know, challenge her in any way with the reality.

19:56

And so the same thing is true of this pronoun hospitality stuff. It's just, you know, another example of, you know, a secular understanding that's better to a lot of people because, you know, what it's about is it's about their feelings are king, you know, their feelings are sovereign.

20:12

And whatever they feel, you have to validate that and you have to affirm that. And, you know, you can read comments on the internet that are basically saying, what does it cost you just to say someone's, you know, preferred pronouns as far as that goes?

20:25

Well, it cost me my integrity, right? It makes me a liar. Like Satan is the father of liars.

20:31

Liars go to hell. You know, Jesus is the way, the truth, the life, you know. So, yes, we're to be individuals who love the truth, defend the truth, speak the truth.

20:42

We're to put away all falsehood and speak the truth with our neighbor, as the Bible says. So, like, what it means really to love someone is to speak the truth to them.

20:51

And that doesn't mean you have to say everything that is true that you can think of in your mind.

20:58

But it certainly doesn't mean lying to individuals in order to make them feel good. And so, you know, as it relates to this kind of discussion, one of the worst things that we can possibly do is lie to these individuals and tell them, you know, call them by their preferred pronouns.

21:10

They're engaging in a delusion. They're trying to deceive themselves. They think that if they just chop off all these parts and, you know, somehow they can be a member of the opposite gender.

21:20

And, I mean, it's just, it's a destructive lie to them, right? I mean, you can just, right now, you know, there's been a lot of these, you know, post -transition, gender transition stories that are coming out that are being shared now that have been suppressed for so long.

21:37

And, I mean, it really is a horrendous thing that people are engaging in to basically castrate themselves or remove, like, you know, remove their healthy breast in order to pretend like they're a member of the opposite sex.

21:49

And, you know, the end result of that is that you have individuals who basically have scarred and mutilated themselves, destroyed any ability they have to have children.

21:59

And, you know, like, the worst thing you can do is just come along and just try to enable them in this delusion.

22:06

I mean, this is the kind of thing that they, you know, there's going to be a lot of suicides that come from that.

22:12

It's not going to come from, you know, people on our side who are mean. It's going to come because that's the natural thing that a person, like, wants to do when they realize that they've totally destroyed, like, the image of God and, you know, removed any chance they have of having a normal life because they were, you know, engaged in some kind of pervasive society -wide delusion.

22:35

So, it's not loving to them to do it, and it's not loving to other people. You know, and that's part of the thing that you're not allowed to say.

22:41

But, I mean, it's not loving to, you know, those girls in the locker room who don't want that guy who's pretending to be a girl in their locker room with them.

22:51

So, it's not loving to them. It's not loving to all the female athletes out there in the world. It's not loving to, you know, to the children that these individuals are, you know, parading themselves around half -naked and, you know, encouraging to put, you know, money in their underwear, you know.

23:07

Like, it's not loving to anyone. And, you know, beyond that, more importantly than all that, it does not honor the

23:14

Lord just to a lot of people. Right. So, the truth will set us free, man. You know, like Jesus says, you'll know the truth and the truth will set you free.

23:22

The lies are not going to set anyone free. And, I mean, for people listening, you know, you might be listening to Tim and thinking that some of those situations must be exaggerated that he described, like, especially like children being paraded around half -naked, you know, like homosexuals and, you know, men pretending to be women, women pretending to be men, being forced to put money in their underwear.

23:49

But those are, I mean, just go on Twitter. Just go on Twitter for like 30 seconds and you can find those videos.

23:55

They're out there and they're, I mean, they're disgusting. Yeah, it's interesting because I think right around Pride Month, everyone started sharing all those videos and then, you know, you had a lot of people who were essentially saying, hey, you know, we don't want to see this kind of thing.

24:11

Right. And I didn't want to see my timeline, you know, blowing up with, you know, all these individuals in state of undress.

24:20

But then, you know, there is like, there is something about Christians that we do.

24:27

I don't think we should, what I'm trying to say is I don't think we should, we shouldn't be sharing those kind of things.

24:35

But then there is the sense in which we're all, we are very sheltered from the realities of the kind of things that go on at, you know, gay pride parades and that are happening at these drag queen story hours.

24:46

And, you know, if you did actually see the kind of things that are actually going on, you would react in a more visceral way than what you are when you're sheltered from them.

24:58

Yeah, sort of take things more seriously, probably. And the same thing with like, you know, all these pictures on Twitter of, you know, girls who essentially have scars, you know, right across their chest.

25:09

You know, the pictures of the post, you know, top surgery kind of thing and all that.

25:15

And it's just, it's the kind of thing that, you know, no one wants to see. But then it's just, it's horrible, you know.

25:21

And just listening to them tell their stories of, you know, sorrow that as a result, when they finally wake up and realize what they've done, like, this is the worst thing we can possibly do.

25:31

Right. But, I mean, you didn't have to know, you know, maybe some of those things are the kind of things that woke

25:37

JD grew up a little bit to where he offered his non -retraction retraction. Right.

25:44

Which at least, you know, it seems like he's mostly on the right side now. And I'm thankful for that.

25:49

But, I mean, I don't, you know, if you're going to have a retraction, I do think you should do it more like Rosario Butterfield kind of retraction to say that, you know, the previous statement you made was one of the most stupid things you've ever said, you know, as an adult

26:05

Christian. That's better, you know. That's better, you know. You're owning it, yeah.

26:11

Yeah, to a much greater degree, so I respect that a lot more. But then I'm glad he's on the right side, but it may be that he's seen, you know, a lot more now and woken him up a little bit, you know.

26:23

And part of it, you know, I wonder about his own, you know, moral judgment with some of these things.

26:30

It doesn't seem like it takes, it's not all that complicated to, like this isn't a complicated subject, okay.

26:38

Yeah. And it doesn't, like this isn't something that's like a deep mystery or something like that. And I think what, the only reason why it's complicated for a person like him is because he has, there is a philosophy of ministry that kind of gets in the way that, you know, the philosophy of ministry is essentially to kind of cuddle on believers and tell them what they want to hear, period, you know.

27:00

And so that just kind of goes along with it. And it goes, that's his basic instinct is just to, you know, it's not a truth teller instinct.

27:09

It's a, you know, basically a coddle on believer kind of instinct, you know.

27:15

Right. So there's that. So is it the same situation if someone were to ask you your preferred pronouns?

27:24

Like if you give, if you answer that question, are you legitimizing pronoun usage at that point?

27:34

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I wouldn't even answer that question. You know,

27:39

I would just say that there are, there's no such thing as preferred pronouns.

27:44

There's only those pronouns that correspond to biological realities, right?

27:49

So I don't get to pick my pronouns any more than you get to pick your pronouns. God's assigned my pronouns, you know.

27:56

Essentially, you know, they're assigned by virtue of the language we speak, which is corresponding to created realities that are, you know, not up to my personal whim here, you know.

28:11

Yeah, I prefer you use my, my only preference is you use my pronouns in English so I can understand you.

28:17

Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Well, I think that's pretty clear. So what if a person refuses, so like, okay, biblical counseling situation.

28:29

That's one of the issues that I had with what J .D. Greer said. He brought up a hypothetical situation that you mentioned where, you know, you have a parent and a child.

28:40

The child is confused, right, on their gender. They think they're a boy, but they think they're a girl, and they refuse to talk to you unless you use their preferred pronouns.

28:52

In that kind of situation, do you use their preferred pronouns and maybe, like, you know, say, hey, like, you are not a girl, but I will say she in order to share the gospel with you and tell you why this is sin.

29:12

No. No, okay. Why not? So that's still lying? Yeah.

29:18

Even if you say, like, you are not a girl, right? I mean, yeah.

29:24

It makes my head hurt. There's a lot of moving parts here.

29:30

No. I mean, like, I understand that you're bringing that example up because that's the kind of example that people use, but that kind of example makes my head hurt, you know.

29:43

So it's like, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to give, like, a comparable situation that could bring some moral clarity to that kind of arrangement as far as that goes.

29:59

But, I mean, just imagine that you're counseling a woman who, like, demands that you refer to her as your wife in order to, like, as a precondition for counseling her or something like that.

30:13

It's like, well, you're not, you know. Right. It's like, yeah, well. I'm married already.

30:19

I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just a matter of, like, yeah, well, okay.

30:24

Well, let me just. If the only way you'll talk to me is that I have to do that, it's like, well, no. We're not going to go there.

30:33

Would you just, like, would you push it and say, no, you're a guy and then purposely, you know, say him or his.

30:48

Yeah, part of it. Or just go to, like, I'm just going to use your name. Yeah, it has to be a specific kind of situation for that to happen anyways because, like, him and her are, like, third person, you know.

31:00

Right. Singular pronouns there, and so you're not going to naturally use that in a one -on -one conversation, you know, in general.

31:08

Right, yeah. So, like, it would have to be kind of a situation like he brought up where, you know, you have the father there and then he's referring to the son as a she, you know, and then demands that you go along in when you refer to her in his presence to call her a she.

31:25

Does that make sense? So it'd have to be that kind of situation for it to make sense.

31:32

But then, I mean, generally you don't appease Hitler, right? Mm -hmm. Like, meaning, you know, you don't.

31:38

What I'm trying to say is, like, you can, you know, if the entirety of our counseling relationship, like, it's dependent on some kind of lie or something like that in order for it to function,

31:50

I just, you know, come to me when you're ready to have a real conversation because all I'm going to say is I'm going to encourage you to turn from this sin.

31:58

Yeah. Like, you know, so I'm not going to pretend like you're a unicorn. I'm not going to pretend like you're a fairy. I'm not going to pretend like you're a dragon.

32:05

I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to do that, you know. So, like, just maybe, you know, like, just to help people understand because, like, there's one area where you can't do this anymore and that would be with, like, the racial discussion, right?

32:21

Mm -hmm. So, like, if you had a white person who was demanding you call them an African -American, right, or something like that, or a black person, like, everyone would know that, no,

32:29

I'm not going to counsel you if you demand that I, you know, pretend like you are a different ethnicity than what you actually are, right?

32:37

So, just imagine how that would go. Like, for some reason that's, like, worse than the gender pronoun things in the minds of other people, like cultural appropriation and all that.

32:48

You can't do that. That's, like, a scandal of sin. But, no, like, that's not going to be, like, that's not the way that this is going to work.

32:55

And if you want help, like, you're not going to get help. We're not going to have help on your terms, right? Mm -hmm. And so, like, a precondition of me helping you is not for me to, like, validate your delusion to some degree.

33:05

Like, that's just not the way that it's going to work. And I'm not going to go along with it. And if you want help, like, and this is something

33:11

I tell people in counseling in general. Like, just in general, when I'm counseling them, it's like, hey, you know, my,

33:17

I have them sign a statement that basically says, like, the counselor is going to give you his interpretation of scripture.

33:23

You know, that's what we're doing here. And so, like, what I tell people over and over again is if you want counsel,

33:29

I will give you counsel. You may or may not like it, okay? You may or may not like it, but I'm going to give you what

33:37

I believe, like, biblical counsel here. And if you want it, I believe it will help you.

33:42

You know, but if you don't want it, then I don't have any, I can't be of help to you as far as that goes.

33:49

So either you want it or you don't. You know, like, and, you know, there's, you know,

33:59

I used to watch Dr. Phil back in the day. But he had this, you know, he had this funny line that he would say, like when he was dealing with a stubborn and obstinate counselee or whatever, they basically arguing with him and disagreeing with him.

34:16

And you just look at him and you basically say, well, how's that working out for you? You know, it's not working out for you very well.

34:22

You know, but that's kind of the point. Like you, people come to counseling because they want help. They want help solving their problems. And if you want help,

34:27

I'll give you help, but you're not going to put strings upon the kind of help I'm going to give you. You either take it or you don't, you know?

34:33

And so we don't, we're not going to start out with like a hostage negotiation to where you're holding my head up, holding a gun to my head and basically demanding the kind of counsel you want.

34:42

Like, if that's what you're doing, you don't want me, you know? Like, and I'm not going to be any good to you because I'm not going to play that game at all, you know?

34:49

So like, that's just, we're not, we're not going to go there with it. You know, it's funny you bring that up because I remember there was a time

34:57

I was meeting with someone and trying to share, I was sharing the gospel with them and we had met, you know, several times up to that point and it was a college student.

35:08

And they told me that they had spent their entire weekend drinking alcohol.

35:14

And I knew, I knew why they, why they were doing that. They were doing that to, you know, cover up with all of their emotional baggage that they didn't want to feel anything because I knew that they were really sad and pretty weighed down by their sin.

35:29

They knew what they were doing was wrong. And so, you know, I thought about, hey, all right, like it's really hard to get through to this person.

35:36

Do I just tell them what they're doing is wrong? No, maybe there's another way. And as I was listening to them, they told me like, hey,

35:43

I did this, I did that, I did this, I did that. And they're trying to get, I think at a certain point I came to the realization, they're trying to get a response out of me.

35:50

And so I just asked them, okay, like, all right, you drank all weekend to make yourself feel better.

35:57

Did it work? And they kind of just stared at me for a second because they weren't expecting, they weren't expecting that.

36:04

They're expecting me to say, well, you shouldn't do that. Right. And they just kind of stared at me and then they were like, well, no,

36:12

I guess it didn't. Okay. All right. Maybe there's a better way. Right.

36:17

And so it's funny. I didn't know Dr. Phil did that. I didn't pick that. I didn't pick that.

36:23

I guess great minds think alike. Well, I don't know. I mean, he's crazy. He's crazy in a lot of ways.

36:28

I think it's a normal, it's a normal kind of impulse. So when you're trying to help someone, like they're coming to you for help, it's a normal kind of impulse to where like,

36:37

I mean, there's a lot of people who say they want help, but they don't want help. Help. You know, they just want, they want most people, they come to counseling.

36:43

They want you to basically tell them that everything that they're thinking and everything that they're feeling and everything that they're doing is absolutely right.

36:51

None of their problems are their fault. Everyone else is like to blame. And what they want then is you to basically just like validate and affirm everything about them, about the response, about how they're thinking about it and everything else.

37:06

But then there's just this massive kind of problem that's, that's related to that kind of expectation.

37:12

It's just the problem of, well, if everything that you're thinking and feeling and doing was right, why do you need help then?

37:19

Right. Right. Like, why do you need my help? Because it doesn't seem like whatever you're thinking and feeling and doing is working very well.

37:26

So maybe you should revisit, you know, what you're thinking and feeling and do it now. I mean, that's not to say that, you know, if everyone, you know, behaves perfectly, that everything will go right for them.

37:37

But I mean like there is a meaning like in some prosperity sense, but there is like, if you're thinking about this correctly and you're feeling about it correctly and you're doing everything right, you should at the very least have some sort of peace and knowledge that God has got it and that he's in control and he's like you, your actions are well -pleasing in his sight, you know?

37:57

So there should be at the very least that kind of thing. But then when you're just totally destabilized and everything else, and it is a sign that you might be handling things poorly, in one way or another, whether it's like, you know, things you're doing wrong or you're responding to things that are outside of your control wrong.

38:15

Like if you want help, we can give you help, but if you don't, but you're going to have to listen to it, you know?

38:21

And if you're trying to dictate the kind of help that you actually can receive, then, you know, you might find that whatever help that this person is going to provide is not going to be what you think it is, you know, it may not be as effective as what you think it is.

38:33

So if all you're looking for is just, you know, someone to tell you that you're awesome and amazing and wonderful, you know, then just like get some kind of, you know, naive, gracious girlfriend or something like that.

38:51

Encouraging to you, you know, that kind of thing. But if you want, you know, someone who's going to tell you the truth, then, then, then you might be, you might have to be willing to hear it.

39:02

Right. Yeah. And that's why the Bible says, you know, wounds from a friend can be trusted, right?

39:08

Because the Bible is assuming a friend is going to tell you the truth, right? Whether you want to hear it or not, even when it hurts, right?

39:15

Yeah. I mean, that's the funny thing about, you know, people in my life is that, you know, I, because I don't lie to them in order to make them feel better.

39:22

And because I don't, I've developed some sort of reputation of basically telling them what

39:28

I believe is true, no matter how, like, you know, in any situation when they come to me, ask me what

39:34

I think, I've developed a reputation that they're going to get what I think. And a lot of times it may not like it, you know, but I at least have,

39:42

I'll at least love them enough to get to tell them it. But what, one of the things that's really interesting about that, you know, looking at the people that like in my life is that often, you know, they, people will respond pretty poorly to that, you know, at first, but then when their life is a mess and when things are going wrong, and they have all these people around them who are telling them lies and they know their lies, right.

40:06

They know their lies because they're not working. Right. And so, you know, you imagine like the single person who no one wants to marry and you know, everyone around them is just telling them if they're awesome and they're amazing and just wait, their

40:17

Prince charming is going to come one day and all that kind of stuff. Right. You know, like everyone around them is telling them those kinds of things and they know their lies.

40:24

Like they know that there's no promise, you know, but then they'll come to me, you know, like when, when, when they have no one left to go to, right.

40:33

They'll come to me, because everyone else is lying to them. They'll, they'll actually seek me out and come to me because they know

40:38

I'll be honest with them, you know, and I'll tell them the truth, you know, as far as that goes and when, when like their problems have gotten to the point where they can't stand them anymore, they'll come to me, you know, and I'll be the person they come to.

40:49

They won't come to any of the other friends, you know, you know, friends they have who are going to lie to them. They'll come to me and they'll know that they'll actually get an answer and they know that they're probably not going to like it, you know, but then they, at least they know that like, that, uh, they can trust me because I'm not going to lie to their face about it.

41:05

Right. I've been that person before with you. Well, yeah. I mean, it's like you, you, and you, you probably know what's going to, what

41:13

I'm going to say before I say it because it's going to be the one thing you don't want to hear. Right. There's going to be that one thing you want to hear, but there's one thing you'd know is right.

41:21

You know? And, but then that does give you, you know, stability. You know what

41:27

I'm saying? Like it does give a person stability just to say, okay, like, I can't deny the obvious, you know, here, here, here's what it is and you know,

41:34

I've often had people come to me like that and they can tell me my position before I even say it because it's one, it's the biblical position that they're trying to fight.

41:43

Right. And two is like, they know, they, they, uh, they know I'm the only one who's gonna gonna shoot straight with him, you know, as far as that goes.

41:50

That's why it's so important that a lot of people from the start though, like if you have some kind of counseling situation that is, you know, basically starting with a gun to your head, you, you play by my rules or else you don't have access to me.

42:01

It's like, well, whenever you're ready, you come, right? When you're ready to have a real conversation, you come talk to me, but until you're ready,

42:06

I can't help you at all. And that's what people need to say. Like, that's what you need to say in those kinds of situations.

42:12

I'm not going to be of any help to you until you come to the end of your road and realize that you have nowhere else to go to.

42:18

Right. Right. And then I'll give you what's right, but I'm not going to start this off. Like, you know basically shooting myself in the foot, you know, with any kind of integrity that I have by basically playing by the rules that you want me to play by.

42:34

Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. Last question.

42:39

And this is one that I know I've seen, even from people who are in, in every other area,

42:47

I would consider totally fake, you know, well, I mean, as far as you know, as far as like you can tell from the public eye, you know, faithful, right.

42:57

Yeah. Maybe totally faithful is not the fairest thing to say, you know, since we're all sinful, but they're solid, they're solid guys.

43:06

Right. Yep. I have seen even solid guys that I listened to some of them who refer to transgenderism as a mental disorder.

43:19

Right. So, so we mentioned talking, you know, you see the picture, you see the pictures of people who they got top surgery, right.

43:26

They, they removed their breasts or, you know, in some cases they're removing their genitals, right.

43:32

They're mutilating themselves. Thankfully no one's sharing those photos. Yeah. I don't want to see it.

43:38

I don't know that we need to start sharing those ones. Me personally, I'll just, you know,

43:43

I'm going to take your word for it. Right. But you see these, you see how terrible these things are.

43:53

And now you even have videos coming out of people who have, they're a year or several years down the road from getting this sort of,

44:03

I mean, life altering types of surgery and medications that you're taking to, you know.

44:11

The numbers have, the numbers have spiked, you know, and so now I think you have enough time that's gone by to now see the wreckage at the end of it.

44:22

Right, right. And so, so people, so that's really making its way onto social media right now. You can't deny it, that it's happening.

44:29

And so in response, a lot of people have been saying, hey, you know, like transgenderism is just straight up a mental disorder.

44:38

Like that's how bad this is. And we shouldn't be like encouraging them and their mental disorder kind of thing.

44:47

Right, right. Yeah. So they're not like, they're not saying it's a mental disorder as like a cop -out.

44:52

They're saying it as like a, this is a serious thing. This is something very serious that we're not taking seriously enough.

45:00

And it's so serious that it's a mental disorder. It's just got to be. Right. And so, so what, so how do you view that?

45:08

I mean, is it a mental disorder or, you know, well, is it a mental disorder?

45:17

Yeah, yeah. I think that was this, you know, the same kind of thing happened with sodomy, as far as that goes.

45:23

And so it used to be viewed as a mental disorder. And then, and then, you know, after, you know, you have lobbying with the

45:30

American Psychiatric Association and all that, like it got removed out of the DSM from like a mental disorder until now.

45:38

It's like, it's not considered a mental disorder anymore due to pressure, as far as that is concerned. So step one was labeled as a mental disorder.

45:44

And then step two is to remove it from that. And now, like often when people are talking about transgenderism, you'll hear the language, like the therapeutic kind of language.

45:52

They're suffering from gender dysphoria or whatever else. Right. And so like, like these are people like, and you'll hear like conservative voices, like individuals like Matt Walsh or whatever.

46:01

So these people are suffering from a mental disorder. This is gender dysphoria. They're suffering from a mental disorder.

46:06

They don't need to, you know, have, you know, these predatory doctors preying upon them and, you know, essentially encouraging them to make irreversible choices.

46:14

They're, they're suffering from a mental disorder. And so there's a kind of sympathy that's given to them, as far as that, that's concerned.

46:21

And, you know, that's the part of the problem is with the mental disorder language. And we've talked about this in different kinds of episodes, is that when people hear that, they hear that this is like a brain problem, essentially.

46:33

Like this is like, not just it's a brain problem. Like, like what they don't hear is this is a problem of thought and behavior that a person is in charge of.

46:44

Does that make sense? They're not hearing like, this is a problem of thinking and a problem of behavior.

46:50

And we are responsible moral agents before God. And we're responsible for how we think and how we act.

46:56

Like what they're, and even, you know, how we feel. Like this is, what they're saying is that this is a mental problem, mental disorder, meaning like somehow, like all, you know, moral agency is being removed from these individuals and they're just suffering from some sort of glitch in the programming, right?

47:15

And that's what people hear when they hear mental disorder. It's like a glitch in the programming, right? So, like this, this, the brain in some sense is structurally flawed in some way that's producing this, these feelings or sensation that an individual, you know, like they were born a man and then they somehow believe that like their own personal identity is not matching up with that and it's somehow a brain problem, it's somehow a biological problem.

47:40

You know, and that, it couldn't be further from the truth. This is not a brain, this is not a biological problem. This is not a brain problem.

47:45

This is, like you're talking about the origin of this problem. This is not like, this is not mental illness in that way.

47:52

It is a problem of thought and behavior, like in the sense it's like a, like it's a, like it is mental illness in that sense, it's a thought, you know, problem of thought and behavior but this is a culpable, these are culpable issues as far as that goes.

48:05

And so, we would do better to not use the language of mental disorder as it relates to this kind of subject and take away all moral responsibility that's happening here.

48:15

Yeah, you have a epidemic of, you know, young girls in particular who are embracing this transgender kind of delusion, but it's, you know, this is mostly responding to peer pressure, it's mostly responding to body image kind of issues, it's mostly responding to, you know, it's a rejection of their assigned gender, it's related to their relationship with men in general.

48:42

Like these are moral problems that we're talking about. This is not just, this is not some kind, like you can't cop out and just act like as if it's some kind of biological problem that's happening.

48:54

Right, it's a sin issue, it's a sin issue. It's a sin issue, yeah. Yeah. This is a sin issue, this is not some kind of quasi -medical illness that people are unresponsible for, that they need help.

49:03

No, like these are sinners that are rejecting the image of God in themselves. This is a sin issue, this is a moral issue, and we should talk about it in moral terms in that way.

49:13

But there's great, like the problem is, like that may feel mean to some people, but like there's great hope in treating it as a moral issue, because if it's a moral issue, it can be repented of.

49:21

Right, yeah. So God's given people over to a debased mind, a mind that's no longer a mind, like a mind that's not functioning as it should.

49:29

This is a high -handed rejection of the image of God in them, you know, but it's something that can be repented of.

49:35

But, I mean, you know, if you go down the surgery route, you know, there are long -term entailments to that, or the hormone treatment, there's long -term entailments of that that you may never be delivered from, and that's why we need to warn people, but this isn't some kind of, you know, problem that's beyond their, like that they're not morally responsible for.

49:53

Yeah. Well, that's what I was going to ask you, you know, so for those people who, okay, so I saw a video this last week of,

50:05

I don't even know, honestly, what gender this person actually was.

50:11

It was so hard, it was just hard to tell. Uh -huh. And, but they regretted going through all of the things that they did to try and, you know, change their gender as if you could.

50:26

And so for that person, so based on what you're saying, we should, number one, still view that person, even though what you're seeing, the regret you're seeing is,

50:40

I mean, is just, like, heart -wrenching. I mean, it's awful to see someone have to go through that.

50:47

You still have to recognize, like, hey, this person is sinful, and the reason they're going through this is because of,

50:56

I mean, certainly deception, you know, on a lot of people's parts, probably pressure from, you know, certain people in that person's life, or at least from society in general.

51:09

There could be poor responses to, you know, real, legitimate sins of others against them too.

51:15

Right. So, like, if you're a girl who was, like, raped or something like that and then you don't, you know, or a girl that's not, you know, desirable to most men or something along those lines and you want to quit feeling undesirable, you can, you know, turn to transgenderism as some kind of all -purpose, like, rejection of your femininity to not have to, to try to drown out, like, the feelings of, you know, being undesirable or to make yourself totally undesirable to men, you know, in a certain sense too.

51:48

But keep on going. Yeah. So, we still need to view those people as sinful, right?

51:54

Yeah, and the regret and the remorse that they're happening, like, that isn't a sign of repentance at all.

51:59

Right, right. So, I mean, that may just be worldly sorrow, right? So, there's godly sorrow and there's worldly sorrow and, you know, the sorrow of the world leads to death, which is why a lot of transgender, you know, people who pretend as if they're a different gender for a period of time and try to, you know, surgically and chemically change their gender, like, which is impossible to do, they end up killing themselves because they're, what's actually happening is that, like, the kind of sorrow they have is worldly sorrow, which leads to death, it's not godly sorrow.

52:29

They don't see themselves as, you know, sinful objects of God's wrath, right? Right. Like, who have rejected the image of God in them, who are in need of repentance and forgiveness from their

52:39

Maker. That's the problem is that they don't have any solution to this. And the more that you describe it as if they were suffering from some sort of mental disorder, right?

52:47

Well, if they were suffering, one, if they were suffering from some kind of mental disorder, why did they change their mind? Do you get what

52:54

I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, if it's just like, you know, like, if it was like a legitimate mental disorder, like, you know, mental retardation or something like that,

53:06

I know you're not allowed to use that expression, but I could care less. Like, if they were mentally retarded, right?

53:11

Like, that's not something you can grow out of. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. Like, you know, or if it's a legitimate brain problem, it's not something you can just change overnight, right?

53:24

And so the fact that, like, they experienced buyer's remorse at the end shows that this is a moral decision they made that they were capable of getting to the other side of.

53:35

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that doesn't mean that anyone who's not capable of shutting off the unpleasant feelings, it then is in the category of mental disorder.

53:46

I'm just trying to say that, obviously, you know, all the people who are experiencing buyer's remorse, they didn't have a mental problem, right?

53:54

Yeah. And if you call them, if you say this is a mental disorder, you know, then you're cutting them off from, like, the solutions that you're going to find in the gospel.

54:03

Yeah, the thing that's actually going to help. The thing that's going to help is for them to take responsibility for what they did.

54:10

And to repent of it. And to consider it a sin against God. And if they could see it, like, in a

54:18

God -centered way, that this is sin against my, a high -handed rebellion against my maker, then the issue is they could become forgiven.

54:26

And they may be, like, you know, one of those individuals who made themselves eunuchs, right? Or were made eunuchs by men.

54:32

But then they could still be a faithful eunuch, you know, to God at that point going forward.

54:38

God can give them righteousness, like, an alien righteousness, His own righteousness, as a free gift.

54:45

And can fundamentally change the situation they find themselves in. I mean, not like, I mean,

54:50

He could, you know, fix all the results of it if He wanted to. His hand is not limited, but He generally doesn't choose to do that.

54:56

There are consequences to this. But they can have His pleasure going forward. And they can be a faithful Christian going forward.

55:03

And they can inherit an eternal life going forward. And they can look forward to the day when everything will be made right.

55:10

But that's not going to happen if you're just basically treating them as if they're non -morally accountable agents before God.

55:18

Yeah, if you're not treating it like what it is, sin. Or if you're, you know, lying to someone, just in the name of trying to gain an audience, even just to gain an audience with them.

55:32

I mean, you're actively preventing them from getting to the solution that God provides.

55:43

And that's the whole point. That's why this is such a big deal. That's why we can't, you know, show quote -unquote pronoun hospitality.

55:51

It's such a goofy phrase to even say. But we can't because ultimately it's preventing people from repenting of legitimate sin in their life, right?

56:06

And if we don't repent, then God's clear what happens to us, right?

56:11

We have to face condemnation for our sin and spend eternity in hell experiencing

56:17

God's wrath. And the only thing, I mean, the only hope they have, I mean, the only hope that a person like that who has basically destroyed their chance of ever having intimacy with, like physical intimacy with another human being for the rest of their life, producing children for the rest of their life, the only hope that person has is to live to a higher transcendent purpose, right?

56:44

To live to the glory of God. That's the only hope they have because they've rejected some of the most significant and essential things that make them human beings, right?

56:57

And so, like, the only hope they have is to learn to live to God and learn to live to His pleasure. And apart from that,

57:03

I mean, like, that's, like, we're going to see a wave of suicides. Yeah.

57:09

And, you know, as a final sort of, like, hey, there is still hope even for that person who has mutilated their body beyond repair.

57:20

But, you know, they repented, right? And now they're trying to pursue obedience to God as best they can in light of the fact that they're still going to have to face consequences for their sinful actions.

57:36

One of the great hopes, I think, is that, you know, one day we will spend eternity with God.

57:44

And, you know, the Bible says that we'll be glorified, that the Father will glorify us, meaning we'll be made perfect, right?

57:53

And so, not only is our sin nature removed from us, but we're given perfect bodies as well.

58:00

All the consequences will be removed. Yeah, all the consequences will be removed. And so, I think there is still a hope for that person, not necessarily, you know, in terms of their physical body, not necessarily in this life, but then in the life to come.

58:16

God can still, God will fix those things. And so, I think that's a good hope for us.

58:23

But I think that's everything I've got for you, Tim. So, I think that's a good place to sort of wrap things up and just sort of end on a note of hope for that person.

58:35

So, hopefully this has been an encouraging episode for you guys. I think there's a lot to be taken away.

58:41

If you're the person who's a Christian who is already against these ideas,

58:49

I think there's a lot to be taken from this in the sense of, no, don't use pronouns, number one.

58:56

Don't use pronouns. But then, number two, be bold in sharing the gospel.

59:01

Be bold in calling sin, sin. Because if you don't, then you're not helping anyone, right?

59:09

You're not actively participating in the ministry of reconciliation because you're not trying to get anyone to realize that they need to be reconciled with God.

59:19

And so, for the people listening who are tempted to reject

59:25

God's design for them and their physical bodies, we would just encourage you, accept the way that God has made you because it is the only way

59:35

God has made you and there is no other alternative. He assigned your gender at birth and you cannot change it no matter how much the society tells you you can.

59:43

And if you try to change it, you are actively rejecting His creation and you are rejecting Him. So, repent of those sins.

59:50

Fight against those sins. Find a local church who will hold you accountable and who will encourage you and show true love towards you, not the kind of love that people who are pushing pronoun hospitality would say is love.

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Find people who will actually love you and tell you the truth even when it hurts. So, we thank you guys for listening and supporting us week in and week out and we look forward to having you guys on the next one.

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and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at BibleBashedPodcast at gmail .com

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and consider supporting us through Patreon. If you would like to be Bible Bashed personally, then please know that we also offer free biblical counseling which you can take advantage of by emailing us.

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Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.