Review of Sungenis debate on Justification

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Second Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

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Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast the Apostle Peter commanded all

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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence your host is dr.

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James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360 that's 602 -274 -1360 or if you're out of the

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Metro Phoenix dialing area it's 1 -888 -550 -1360 that's 1 -888 -550 -1360 and now with today's topic here's

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James White rich can we hey there we go you know when they take one microphone out of service it would be nice if they would tell us that microphone out of service

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I know it was all just set up just for me since I've been gone it's a meant to be a form of penance on my part to have to grab another one of the studio microphones because the main microphone has been taken offline for some strange reason and that's because I've been gone so long and yes it does seem like it's been a long time

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I'd like to thank all of those who sat in for me while I was out and that would include

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Mike Porter and Simon Escobedo and Mike Munoz and Sean Hahn and of course

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Rich Pierce and everybody for doing everything that they could to keep things going here while I was on Long Island and it was a very good trip

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I can give you some a little bit of a report on what took place there and you know rich when

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I came in I noticed both microphones this direction so now I'm starting to wonder hmm but we should put a little sign on this says do not use it does not work no you know we should do do nothing tune in Monday afternoon to Marty Minto show and laugh hysterically for the first five minutes well nothing happens whatsoever because no one gets around to fixing it that's that's probably what we should do okay nobody tell

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Marty okay it'll be our big our big secret here on Saturday afternoon no one tell

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Marty that the main studio microphone does not work because I'm taller than Marty and I can reach the other microphones a lot easier when we leave we're gonna put all the microphones as far away from over here as we can and we'll see what happens no we're not gonna do that of course we would not do something like that hey and some of you may subscribe to the

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Christian Research Journal and volume 22 number three just came out the front cover says atheism today and the middle article the feature article in the very middle of the magazine is called beyond the veil of eternity the importance of Philippians 2 5 to 11 in theology and apologetics by myself and my goodness they went the artsy route on this particular article it's beautiful unfortunately completely and totally un photocopy able because it's on a black background white lettering all sorts of art done on it but it is beautifully done and Philippians 2 5 to 11 is of course one of my favorite passages in all of Scripture and here you have a 47 4800 word article on Philippians 2 5 to 11 including my own translation of the passage

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I interacted with with Dan Wallace's view here and all sorts of neat fun stuff so the current edition of the

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CRI Journal if you do not subscribe to it you might want to track down a copy of it anyways I think they're like 650 or $5 or something like that says 650 on the front but this is especially good issue there's all sorts of neat fun stuff there's a entire article on baptism by H Wayne house which is real good there's a section on atheism and then there was a section on deconstructing liberal tolerance by Francis Beckwith which is really good and that's such a common issue that we have to deal with today the media's use the term tolerance and yet the media today is the most intolerant it has ever been of any view that espouses truth the logical errors in the argumentation used by the left and the liberal media today is absolutely amazing and all of its in this articles all of this issue the

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Christian Research Journal so you might want to track it down my articles right in the middle on Philippians 2 5 through 11 and I think

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I have something in the next edition as well I wrote the counterpoint the negative counterpoint on the subject of the

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Augsburg Confession the Augsburg Confession the Augsburg Accord the

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Catholic Lutheran Accord that was assigned last year 1999

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October 31st 1999 I wrote the negative on it and Ralph McKenzie wrote the positive on it

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Ralph thinks it's a good idea and I think it's a bad idea and I think that'll be in the next edition of the

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CRI Journal I don't know when that comes out however I didn't even know this one was out until people started talking to me about it and my copy arrived this week so beyond the veil of eternity the importance of Philippians 2 5 through 11 also of course this is the first chance

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I've had to make reference to other than on my cell phone as I have called in the release the

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Potter's Freedom we're getting some tremendous response to the book

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I think Rich has probably mentioned the fact that we have gotten more response to the book than we've gotten to any other book that we have allowed to be pre -publication ordered over the website but we got our first negative response this week

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I suppose we should be honest you know we had gotten a lot of tremendously positive response to the book but we got our first negative response but I don't get the feeling that this negative responder actually took the time to read the book here's here's the email that we that we got

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I'm reading off of my trusty palm pilot here and I usually agree with dr. white however when it comes to salvation there are some issues

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I do not agree with I used to think those were secondary issues that shouldn't but I have come to realize that dr.

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white is willing to divide over it his theology is beginning to show the symptoms of a cult when it comes to Calvinism he simply can't bear the thought that he might be wrong on some issues although he won't admit it he has not written a book rebutting dr.

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Geisler's book it's almost as if he becomes extremely irritated when somebody does not agree with him you have to ask yourself is he doing

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God's work by snapping at every person who dares question his position on salvation

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I pray the Lord helps him realize that he is attacking the wrong people much like Saul before he became a born -again

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Christian he thought he was doing God's work and was a hundred and ten percent convinced of it God bless

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I just love the taglines God bless Gil well you know

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Gil I don't get the feeling that you read the Potter's freedom because I think if you would you wouldn't accuse me of entering into cultism symptoms of a cult and nor would you believe that I can't bear the thought that I might be wrong on some issues you know what

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Gil I am wrong on some issues I just don't know which ones they are yet and I'm willing to be corrected and in fact

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I'm the one asking for public discussion of these issues I may well be wrong on all sorts of things

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I'm willing to hear but you know on this subject especially Gil so far my my singular experience is that when we get down to actually discussing the text of Scripture the folks who disagree with me just won't do that part and if you're going to show that I'm wrong about something

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Gil please you say you disagree with me on this please read the book and show me where I'm wrong from Scripture I've had conversations with all sorts of folks that felt that I was wrong but when we got down to the actual discussion of Scripture and that unfortunately happens very rarely in other words a lot of folks are all

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I disagree with you on that stuff but I'm not gonna argue with you but I wouldn't want to debate you on it well why not if I'm wrong about let's discuss it biblically let's go to John 6 let's go to Ephesians 1 let's go to Romans 9 let's roll up our sleeves and let's do the exegesis

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I can't I can't get folks to do that for some strange reasons so when you say he has not written a book rebutting dr.

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Geisler's book I just say read the book read the book yourself find out if that's not exactly what it is and I think that you'll discover that you are in error but I don't get the feeling that you actually read the book those who have read the book have been very thankful for it in fact

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I didn't bring it with me but I did add this to the the web page if you want to go to www .aomin

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.org slash capital T capital P capital F dot

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HTML TPF for the Potter's freedom TPF that HTML you will find that I've added at the bottom there a comment that was made on the

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Reformed Baptist discussion list by Mr.

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Zerhusen that's how I'd say it it could be Zerhusen it could be Zerhusen we've only communicated by electronic means and therefore you don't get to find out where all the accents are on these syllables that way but they believe it was

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Bob Zerhusen wrote a very nice review of the book and the thing I liked the most about it was aside from the fact it was positive was that Mr.

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Zerhusen said specifically that he had been looking for a book to give to people to introduce them to the doctrines of grace that would that would do the whole job and he said this is the book and so I'm very pleased by that type of review and that type of commentary now we've got let me see here forgotten

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Trinity advice for witnessing to the Mormons I'm looking at the topics of the callers so far the phones are already open at 602 -274 -1360 1 -888 -550 -1360

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I'm glad that I've said 1 -888 -550 -1360 so many times because I walked out of the

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Reformed Baptist Church there Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Merrick pull out the trusty cell phone and go now what number am

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I calling you said the number over and over and over again and then you stand there going oh man it's amazing how we can see there's it's up on the it's on a window you know every time you hear

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Marty Minto said he's not it's not memorized I mean I'm looking at it's written right over there on a window right through actually it's through a window and it's on a second window the window in front of where Rich Pierce is sitting and he's looking at it backwards you probably can say it backwards because you see it backwards all the time but I see it from this direction and it's 1 -888 -550 -1360 we invite your participation

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I thankfully remembered it during that conference and by the way we are going to be making that conference available

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I think after Rich gets done squishing and squeezing and editing

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I'm sort of guesstimating that we're probably looking at about 12 tapes that's that's my guesstimate

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I think if we a bunch of the folks went long I never went long and I'm not gonna tell you who did

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I'm not gonna mention Rob Zins or or David King or Eric Svenson I'm not gonna mention the fact that the other three guys went beyond their time so I'm not gonna mention names right

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I would never do that that'd be very very crass and unkind but I since I stayed within my time frame then

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I think if we and some of the questions don't need to be on the tapes we we had one fellow attend the conference that said some very had some very interesting questions that really didn't have anything to do with Roman Catholicism whatsoever in fact one night he wanted to debate pacifism with me and I did that doesn't really need to be on the tape series but once we squish them all down I think we'll be able to get to about 12 tapes and excellent excellent stuff wanted

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David King's a tremendous preacher he preached on the effect of Romans 117 on Luther and I mean you just want to you just want to repent all over again when it gets done and then

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Eric Svensson his discussion of the epistemological fallacies of Roman Catholic apologetics was just wonderful and the thing that I really got out of it that just really helped me a lot was you know he talked about a number of the questions that I've asked a

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Roman Catholic apologist over the years which includes pointing out to them that their claim of being infallibly certain of the meaning of a particular text of scripture because Rome's told them or infallibly certain about what the books in the canon are because Rome's told them that that claim simply doesn't carry any water obviously they have made a fallible decision to follow

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Rome's infallible teaching there are other groups they could have chosen it could have chosen Mormons they could have chosen

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Jehovah's Witnesses there's all sorts of folks that will will say hey except my religious authority and I'll answer all the questions for you but the simple fact matter is when you make that decision you're making a fallible decision and so when

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Roman Catholic apologists say well you Protestants you don't claim to be infallible and so you need to have infallible certainty and this infallible certainty comes from the authority of Christ Church which is the

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Church of Rome etc etc he did an excellent job in pointing that out and that's a question I've asked but the thing that I hadn't done which

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I now will constantly do is he pointed out the fact that we often let

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Roman Catholic apologists get away with comparing apples and oranges and this is what

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Patrick Madrid does all the time Patrick Madrid the editor of envoy magazine and his a constant drumbeat of solo scriptura blueprint for anarchy and what

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Roman Catholic apologists will do mr. Madrid in particular but all the others in their various and sundry ways is he will say well look solo scriptura has resulted in doctrinal chaos look at all the different Protestant denominations that exist out there and what that involves aside from the fact that it doesn't work

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I mean look at the Roman Catholic system you can find as many different viewpoints within Roman Catholicism as you can find within biblical

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Protestantism there's liberal Catholics and mainline Catholics and traditionalists and all sorts of stuff like that the simple fact the matter is the argument doesn't hold on that level but even better as a response as dr.

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Svenson pointed out is to point out that they are comparing a rule of faith to a denomination that is they're comparing a rule of faith solo scriptura to a denomination

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Roman Catholicism if you're going to make the comparison work then what you need to do is you need to compare rule of faith to rule of faith or denomination to denomination in other words let's do a denomination to denomination comparison let's compare

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Roman Catholicism with Reformed Baptist we're at Reformed Baptist Church so it's good to pick on us and besides that I'm Reformed Baptist so our

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Reformed Baptist as a whole more doctrinally united than Roman Catholics well that's not even a question of course they are there's

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I mean we're talking factors of 10 here as to how more united Reformed Baptists are in their common beliefs than Roman Catholics are so if you want to compare denomination denomination you got to do it that way or let's compare rule of faith to rule of faith let's compare solo scriptura to the rule of faith of Roman Catholicism which would be scripture plus an infallible interpreter that's what

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Rome claims of course Rome says well we we also have tradition but what tradition is is only what the infallible interpreter tells you it is so let's compare those two let's compare rule of faith to rule of faith if you if you compare say three denominations that use solo scriptura and since we had a bunch of different nominations they're speaking at the conference let's let's compare the

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Reformed Baptist the Evie free and the PCA because one of our speakers was a

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PCA minister compare those three groups and then compare Roman Catholicism Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses and immediately they jump up in the air and throw papers in the air and dirt that way wait you can't do that but the point is each one of those groups uses the same type of rule of faith that is scripture plus an infallible interpreter ah you now you start seeing what the real comparisons are how much more united are the three groups that use solo scriptura in their fundamental theological affirmations than those three groups that use scripture plus an infallible interpreter you can't even get the same doctrine of God out of those three groups but of course you get the exact same doctrine of God from the three groups using solo scriptura you get justification by faith you get the inspired scriptures you get all this unity and the fundamentals of what the

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Christian faith is amongst those groups that use solo scriptura but you don't get that amongst those groups that use scripture plus infallible interpreter in fact they end up with different gods and different views of Christ and different views almost everything so I found it fascinating to be challenged to remember to not allow the

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Roman Catholic apologists to get away by in comparing apples and oranges because the fact that in so doing they are giving us a very invalid argument now very quickly many of you are wondering when will we be able to get the tapes of these debate against Robertson Jenison justification by grace through faith alone without human works of merit was the specific thesis statement of the debate as well as the debate with Paul Barber Church of Christ minister from from yeah

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I've got his card right here I'm gonna pull it North Borough here we go

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Paul Barber North Borough Church of Christ in North Borough Massachusetts 46

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West Main Street North Borough Massachusetts that's where it is anyways when are we going to be able to get the tapes of those debates well the tapes of the debate on election where I defended the biblical doctrine of election against Paul Barber who denies that kind of election obviously

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Church of Christ is not exactly known for being overly Calvinistic those tapes are sitting at the office they are ready to go and all you need to do is need to call

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Rich Pearson tell him to get him ready oh no no no no no you can't you can't turn that you know you can't turn that microphone on and complain about what

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I just said you just can't do that because you you know you must admit that's a no attention to that man behind the curtain indeed they have and your your little minion here is having a great time shipping out the potters well

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I do need to do a little touch up on the on the masters of those and then and I believe

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I should have everything ready around the middle of June and I will be posting that on the website in 12 days indeed the twelve days of June but I will be posting on the main page that all of what's ready there at a omen dot org so when it comes to what's going to be ready and when pay no attention behind the curtain all right okay well thank you very much rich that's just all to point out that the debate is sitting there it is it is you know available it just a matter of you know touching it up I guess the syngenous debate normally takes more time mainly because it was record it's record on video and then it has to be dubbed down and then the audio normally comes first I have to take the audio off the video all the rest that type of stuff so that generally takes a month or two before we we have that kind of stuff available generally the audio becomes available first and then the videos become available after that now you may be asking well should we should we be looking forward to getting this debate yes

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I think you should well was it better than last year's debate where you felt that there was just basically two different debates going on one debates on the mass which

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I was pursuing and one debate on eternal security of the book of Hebrews which is what mr. syngenous was pursuing and the fact that I I've made it very publicly known that I felt there was a tremendous amount of personal ad hominem that there was a unnecessary remarks being made during the debate that really caused last year's debate the 1999 debate in the mass to be less than useful this year was not that way mr.

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syngenous and I had agreed in fact we wrote a joint statement that appears on the web page about how these debates should be undertaken we agreed to focus on the subject and that's exactly what we did and so yes you will want to get hold of this debate

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I think that my my desire I know that my desire is I went to the debate was to make sure that everyone could everyone who heard that debate whether they were there at the

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Huntington townhouse that night in the middle of that blinding storm that they had or listen to it by tape watch it on video however you might see it that everyone at the end of that debate would recognize one thing that is that the reformed position focuses upon God and his ability to save his people it is a theo -centric gospel

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God is the one who saves and that the Roman Catholic viewpoint is focused upon man it is an anthropocentric viewpoint a synergistic viewpoint that God wants to save but outside of the cooperation of man the collaboration of man the grace of God cannot save in that system that was what

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I wanted to see clearly presented and it was in fact I knew that it would be unless my opponent did not debate the issue because as long as he debated the issue no matter what scripture passage we were examining no matter what questions were being asked and answered it would be clear in every single situation that as we looked even at the same passage of scripture that one of us would look at it from a theo -centric perspective the other from an anthropocentric perspective and I think anyone who listens will be able to recognize that there were certain assertions that I made in my opening statement that mistress and Janice never even attempted to address one for example is the fact that faith is a gift divine gift from God that was not even disputed and not in the sense that he agrees because he does not but there was no attempt on his part to refute that information refute those passages

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I think he was a little bit surprised that rather than doing what for example I've done with Jerry Matatix and Mitchell Pacwa in the past and that is focusing upon the meanings of justification righteousness imputation faith using

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Genesis 15 6 is the key passage I really focused upon the necessity of justification by grace through faith alone based upon the sovereignty of God the deadness of man and sin and so I focused upon the fact that the

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Bible teaches a monergistic view of salvation whereas Roman Catholicism presents a synergistic view and so I I even challenged the

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Protestants who were in the audience that evening hey on this issue if you call yourself a Protestant but you're a synergist if you're like Paul Barber the

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Church of Christ minister that I debated a few if you are like well let's be honest Norman Geisler because he makes this direct statement in fact

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I need to mention this before I forget it in both debates in the debate with Roberts and Jenison justification the debate with Paul Barber the

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Church of Christ minister the arguments that both used in regards to synergism faith and a universal call shall we say in the sense of well it's

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God's will to save everybody and his will gets frustrated and this whole

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Calvinistic particularism is wrong the arguments used by both Paul Barber and Roberts and Janice were identical even to the verses used as what is found and chosen but free by Norman Geisler it was it was amazing in fact in the barber debate the

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Church of Christ minister was using the exact same phraseology he went to first Timothy 2 for he used the exact same argument that that Norman Geisler uses in his book

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I had prepared for that debate we're using PowerPoint and I had an entire presentation based on one of the chapters in the potter's freedom on the big three

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Matthew twenty three thirty seven first Timothy two four and second Peter three nine was ready to go with a response to each one of those and guess what happened during the question answer period with Roberts and Janice one of the last question that he asked me in the question answer period was given your view of election

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Dr. White actually was always mr. dr. white there's a new title mr.

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doctor what do you do with first Timothy 2 for which reads and the exact same argument presented by Roberts and Janice in the question answer period that is found of course throughout chosen but free and respond to in the potter's freedom so synergism is synergism and if you're a synergist you're quite simply on these issues of the nature of faith grace the purpose of God and salvation if you're a synergist you agree with Rome now you may be firmly against Rome I'm sure that pastor

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Barber is firmly against Roman Catholicism but when it comes to the issue of the gospel the issue of grace the issue of faith the nature of those things

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Paul Barber agrees with Rome on those issues against the Reformers as does

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Norman Geisler and I pointed that out in the very first chapter of the potter's freedom that's that is why this is so important that's why we have to challenge people to think about it so we have two colors online we have two lines open at 602 -274 -1361 888 -550 -1360 will be taking your phone calls right after this break name is

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James White it's a Saturday afternoon and we have callers online in fact we have a caller calling all the way from you didn't see how you type that did you rich Birmingham Birmingham I'm sorry rich I shouldn't have mentioned that on is my microphone on are we back on oh

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I'm hi Jim how you doing are you in Birmingham England oh sure

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I'm a friend of a mountain yes that's what I understand yeah

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I should I'm from to ask because I've been witnessing to where before my mom and lads I've been come to me house over the past three weeks yes and I've actually got myself do you don't the first Sunday in every month they had this witness in a church like fasting and testimony

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Sunday yes I'm hoping all right I'm actually going to Sunday for for that part of the meeting right and I'm hoping to get a chance to get to give my testimony like a force healthy actually get up there

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I mean I've been thinking about I've been following this quite a lot right

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I've been thinking about just speaking on grace right right I'm not to give my testimony but of course there the one thing

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I found true actually wasn't with these lads right is when I start quoting scripture they turn off just turn off like I'm amazed right

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I've not there's one lad who actually lives right beside the chap that's on that video called the gun makers right it carries a picture of Joseph Smith right and the veneration it's almost like Mary worship if you know what

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I mean like is he where's he from he's actually I don't know where he's from but he tells me

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John a video called the gun makers that the chap that actually done that he lives right next to the chap that actually done that video so he's not from the

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United States well she is what he is he's actually a he was a

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Greek Orthodox okay so it's stranger but uh yeah

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I'm just really just because I've never gone to one of these things before I'm just really well let me tell you a little bit about what what to expect and I'll give you this information from the fact that I have gone to fasting and testimony meetings and given my testimony but rich probably shared that with you so basically what you're going to encounter because most of them run pretty much along the same lines is some singing and then the a time is going to be opened up and individuals are allowed to simply get up out of their seat walk down to the front and I don't know if the war chapel that you're going to be going to is overly fancy or not the one that I first did this at was pretty neat because it had a hydraulic pulpit so they adjusted it to your height so if a little kid goes up there it sort of goes down and the little kid can say something that you know big ball tall basketball player goes way up high so you go up there and generally at most fasting and testimony meetings there aren't a whole lot of folks who get up and say things and the general testimonies are like you know the housewife gets up and and I'm so thankful for the church and for the fellowship and maybe a little kid will get up and you know

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I love my mommy my daddy and my brothers and my sisters and I know that Gordon Hinkley is a prophet that Joseph Smith is a prophet in the

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Book of Mormon's Word of God amen type of thing but basically what I did is

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I got up there and unfortunately what happened was when I stood up to go up front right then somebody who was closer got up front well

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I was already standing so I was stuck and so I had to go down there and I had to sit in one that the war chapel

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I went to there were chairs back behind the pulpit and that's where the bishop was sitting so I had to sit next to the bishop while this other person talked for a little while and then

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I got a chance to go up there so what I did is I got up there and I said hi my name is

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James White and I'm very glad to have the opportunity to share my testimony with you today especially due to the fact that I'm not a member of the

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Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints as soon as I said that up to that point there was a lot of people like moving around and milling around and and you know babies crying and you know a guy in the back sleeping and that type of thing as soon as I said that the place became absolutely silent you could hear you could hear a pin drop even the babies were quiet it was an amazing guy woke up it was an amazing amazing thing to see

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I mean I had their attention big -time and what I had done is

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I had I had memorized a number of passages of scripture but I tied them together so that I was

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I was in essence saying what I'd like to share with you is is why it is that I can have confidence that I have peace with God and I had a number of passages that talked about what grace and justification really mean and I got about halfway through them before this little thing sort of flew over from the left -hand side it landed on the pulpit in front of me and it was a folded up bulletin

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I still have it to this day and on the back was written brother white our time is up now

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I had been there the month before and I knew how long the time went and we weren't even close to that time being up but basically he was saying okay cut it short buddy and so I did and as soon as I get done

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I walked down sat back down my seat my wife was with me and three other people were with me and the line formed on the left every missionary in the place was waiting in line and they're all bearing testimony looking straight at me about how they know the church is true yada yada yada yada and then and then they sang a hymn and as soon as the last note of the organ was playing the first counselor was right at my side with his hand out saying that the bishop would like to speak to you and so all five of us piled into the bishop's office and we talked to the bishop for about half an hour or so and the thing that I remember most about this and this was a number of years ago was that he was offended that one of the things one of the passages that I had mentioned talked about men as sinners he said you know

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President Kimball and that shows you how long ago this was that the Kimball was president time President Kimball has said that he knows of perfect men on earth so how do you know

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I'm a sinner and I had never up to that point realized that I needed to memorize passages of scripture talked about the universality of sin but I went home and did memorize passages scripture on the universality of sin after that particular experience so basically that's that's what we did and if you're looking for advice my advice would be to be very clear succinct in what you're saying

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I wouldn't try to go for as long a list as I had but the areas that I would suggest going for would be possibly to contrast the the

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Mormon view of grace with the biblical view of grace that I think is a very very important area that you can go into is to explain exactly what the differences are between what we believe about grace and what they believe about grace

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I'm looking here for a quote that I had on my palm pilot specifically in regards to and I'm not seeing it in regards to their view of grace do you have their do you have their

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King James Version of the Bible well the the reason

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I suggest that is that there is a quotation in fact I'm going to give it to you right now because I found it my palm pilot has has saved me here let me let me read you the definition of grace and you have you have access okay either that or or have

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Martin well you're gonna do this tomorrow you said well what

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I can do is I can email this to you if you want to use it but let me read it to you first so you can see whether you whether it's interest to you or not

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Stephen Stephen can to hold on we're going to get to you grace here is the definition of the word grace from the

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LDS Bible Dictionary which is published with their King James Version of the Bible okay so if you get like what's called their quad this big thick now you've seen the missionaries kind of big thick it's got the

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Book of Mormon Doctrine Covenants program price and the King James Version of the Bible all in one volume if you look in the back of it there's a

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Bible Dictionary and if you look up the word grace this is what it says grace a word that occurs frequently in the

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New Testament especially in the writings of Paul the main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ it is through the grace of the

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Lord Jesus made possible by his atoning sacrifice that mankind will be raised in immortality every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life it is likewise the grace of the

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Lord that individuals through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means this grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts divine grace is needed by every soul and consequence the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings however grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient hence the explanation and they quote 2nd

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Nephi 25 23 which says it is by grace we're saved after all we can do I think a second

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Nephi of between the four in their second Nephi 25 23 23 yeah another year in a week but could you actually it's could you actually email any stuff to Martin because obviously

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Martin in the same church okay I don't yeah but what you have to do is you have to call

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Martin right now and have him email me so that I have his address and I'll send that to you you better get this afternoon now the other passage you want might want to write down do you have the

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Book of Mormon okay you so that second

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Nephi 25 23 the other one is Moroni chapter 10 verse 32 because Moroni 10 32 is the one that talks about the fact that we have to do our best to be able to gain the grace of God is that Martin okay

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Martin's uh all right how do I just punch him up will he be able to come straight in okay he's there

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Martin it's a British invasion again I was just thinking that if you wanted to email that information to me yes and I'll give his

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James to Jim in the morning church okay and now you're being listened to by many many people right now

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Martin so if you you may end up with lots of interesting emails if you give it to me on the air okay well but make sure that he has written it down so that so that we've got it okay yeah because yeah he's got it buried under some pile of paper someplace so okay that's sort of dangerous but I'll send you that quote there and then you can give it to Jim okay okay good all right appreciate appreciate you being willing to do that now those would be the directions to go on on grace

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Jim obviously the other area to go is the fact there's only one true

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God but remember you're you're not going to be able to get a whole lot said so what you do say needs to be clear and what it in it and I would suggest it needs to be something you can make a personal application of in the sense of saying you know this is why this means so much to me you know something along the lines of let me let me share with you and then

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I'll let you go let me share with you what I said is the first two pair of missionaries lads as you call them that that I talked to in the 1982 and what

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I said to them was when they left I said you know we've discussed a lot of things we've talked about a lot of things but here's here's the main thing that I want you to remember and that is you have a

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God who has changed you have a God who has progressed to the position of being a

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God and he has changed what salvation means even over the past hundred and fifty years so you have no confidence that you can wake up tomorrow morning and the

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Gospels going to be the same that it is today you may have to do something different tomorrow my God has never changed and the foundation of my faith is based upon an unchanging

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God and that I think really stuck with them when they left so maybe that's a direction you might want to go as well so either way would be it would be a good direction to go okay all right

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I'll send this stuff to to Martin as soon as they get back home and we'll be praying for you tomorrow actually you'll be doing this while we are probably still asleep over here but God knows we'll pray for you before then that he'll give you clarity of thought and clarity of speech to be able to bear testimony in the in that opportunity okay all right thanks a lot

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God bless bye -bye we'll be right back right after this break God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him The glory of God, the scans proclaim the work of His hands, day after day they call for speech, night after night they display knowledge

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There is no speech or language you've been listening to the special music today that's been provided by Mr.

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Pierce who is I think spreading his wings a little bit in providing for his namesake you can get more information on their music at www .ids

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.org if you're looking for that and Martin's still online Martin we're gonna get to you in a second but Steve in Ottawa has been very patient well you know

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I don't know if Steve's impatient or not I have no way of knowing so well

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I'm patient for the last time you left me on for 45 minutes well that's about how long you've been on this time that works out well we're trying to break the record okay no

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I'm not gonna debate you on pacifism or accuse you of being an occultist yes well but just two comments

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I'd like to thank you well for well I guess it's one combined just to thank you for the book on the Trinity and also apologetics book

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I did actually I spoke to my younger adults group on the Trinity and I had about a dozen people come up to me and thank me for doing that talk and thank you for it's been a doctrine

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I've been challenged with I don't know where I'll respond and it was really frustrating for me too I mean we're evangelicals or we're

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Christians we're Protestant Christians we think we hold to the fact of the word Sola Scriptura and we practice that but I mean the fact these people don't understand it

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I mean you know it was really frustrating for me but I was encouraged that they got something out of it and and just secondly

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I just was wondering about your book the potter's freedom have you had any comments for anybody from say for example

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Ashbury you know theological seminary or any other theologians from the Armenian tradition or anything like that you were asked for a debate or something like that or no there is going to be a discussion in San Diego in October of this year that dr.

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Geis is gonna be a part of and there's going to be a I believe a Nazarene professor presenting the

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Armenian position I initially was invited to participate and then was unceremoniously disinvited to participate in that particular conversation

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I can't tell you it was well no what I mean is

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I I didn't get a an official explanation they just simply invited somebody else to present the reform view

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Ken samples is going to present the reform view or rather than myself so there's one discussion there but no

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I really haven't heard anything of course the book is brand new and therefore I don't think that I would expect much of reaction immediately once the book starts getting into the seminary bookstores

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I heard last night for example it's available over at Master Seminary in their bookstore now so it is getting out and getting into those places but I don't expect this to be a book that's going to be available in a

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Christian bookstores simply because Christian bookstores don't carry this kind of material it's going to have to be something that people that basically gets around by word of mouth by people are buying you know half dozen copies and giving them to their friends and neighbors and everybody else and that's what people are doing so I think that's really the way that the books going to be distributed so eventually maybe there will be some sort of discussion but I just you know the simple fact the matter is when you get down to biblical exegesis when you actually get down to dealing with the text there just isn't a lot of solid meaningful

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Arminian ism out there simply because I'm sorry when you when you sit down with John six and you start at the beginning and you go to the end

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I've never found anybody that can do it and not come to a reformed understanding so there's there's more of a general attitude is well you know let's look at the practical implications of what you're saying yeah rather than what the text itself says and and that doesn't debate well and I think most people realize that well let that I mean just briefly

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I know you got probably another caller there but that that's my experience to James with debating with people on this issue it's that where I had

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I debated a scientist or you know student biology and also another other people my church it's like and they say well

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I mean the fact if God is completely sovereign then what's the point of doing missions I said he's called you to do it what are the implications do you have a beat this missionaries in like Middle East to go there for their entire lives never leave one person to Christ is what what they did you know

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I mean you're a beating to God I mean it's just it's a lot of hot air when I debate with people they don't get to the scriptures you said and it's just very aggravating do you find that very frustrating well

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I don't know it burns me sometimes well I don't want to get to the point where I don't find it aggravating or frustrating but I encounter it so regularly

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I mean we had two different people come into our chat room while I've been working on the justification book and and I started engaging them in conversation one was a well both of them were

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Roman Catholics and I ended up discussing John six with them and it was everybody in the room could see these folks simply could not answer what

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John six thirty seven says all that the father gives me will come to me let's just discuss that one phrase and to see them running from pillar to post and and absolutely no ability to deal with just one phrase yeah it's frustrating but I've seen it so often that that I can see it without becoming discouraged or something like that and point of fact it's actually encouraging in the sense that you know that's exactly what the

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Bible says is going to happen and so it just confirms the truth of those things so yeah you know

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I'm frustrated in the sense that I don't want to ever get to the point of not being concerned when I see someone who doesn't embrace

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God's truth but at the same time I don't want to get to the point where you end up burning out or end up being you know a rather cynical type person and and don't enjoy the the and rejoice in in one's

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Christians faith I've seen that happen to people and I don't I don't want that either so okay Steve I'll keep up the good work

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I appreciate what you're doing thank you God bless bye -bye all right let's get Martin on real quick there hey

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Martin doing pretty good just quickly I'm getting ready to talk to my uncle about she's a

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Catholic and getting ready to talk to her about Mary I've really listened to your tapes on the Marian debate with J -Malatics and you know he keeps mentioning that he will show me where Mary sinned and or where she wasn't aware that she was you know sinless or whatever it could

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I just tell me if I'm stretching this too far you know when Mary takes the the the turtle doves the doves to the temple for the offering that linking that to actually talks about doing that in Leviticus 12 and 6 it's actually mentioned right at the end of chapter 12 6 it says a burnt offering the young pigeon or turtle before a sin offering right is that for herself and if she did that then is she aware that she was a sinner therefore it's a place to show that Mary possibly or I mean you know from a

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Catholic point of view we can point out that little Mary is aware for her own sin therefore she was a sinner is that possible without stretching it a couple things no

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I don't think you're stretching it at all remember the the the unfounded assertion that's being made is the sinlessness of Mary and so the the weight is upon the

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Roman Catholic to demonstrate that she viewed herself as sinless and there is there is absolutely no evidence of that both her referring to God as her

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Savior in Luke 2 and of course they say well of course God's our Savior because he did this preemptory application of the merits of Christ they actually suggesting to us that Mary herself understood that even though in reality no one until a

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British monk named Edmer had ever suggested that and that in the 12th century is absolutely the most glaring example of eisegesis you could ever find but let me suggest something to you find do a web search on dr.

50:16

Eric Spenson I think his website is nt oh man

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I just say he just changed it and well I think it is ntrn .com but I think it's something

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I just got an email from yesterday that's changing to something else and you'll the other domain should continue to work for about a year so I think it's ntrn .com

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look that up he has the best stuff on Mary and on straightgate .com

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yeah he debated gerrymatitics on the issues of Mary and they only did once they're able to get much more in depth and he won hands down grab that okay okay lovely watching email bye -bye all right that's it for the dividing line today thank you very much for joining with us we'll be back again next week taking your phone calls discussing the truth of God thanks for being with us thanks for supporting those that were here while I was gone we'll see you next week line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -0318 or write us at P .O.

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Box 37106 Phoenix Arizona 85069 you can also find us on the worldwide web at AOMIN .org

51:54

that's AOMIN .org where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.