Review of Sungenis debate on Justification

Second Timothy 2 15. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast.

The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with dr. white you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360 that's 602 -274 -1360 or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area it's 1 -888 -550 -1360 that's 1 -888 -550 -1360.

And now with today's topic here's James white rich. Can we. Hey there we go you.

Know when they take one microphone out of service it would be nice if they would tell us that microphone out of service. I know it was all just set up just for me since I've been gone. It's a meant to be a form of penance on my part to have to grab another one of the studio microphones because the main microphone has been taken offline for some strange reason and that's because I've been gone so long.

And yes it does seem like it's been a long time. I'd like to thank all of those who sat in for me while I was out and that would include Mike Porter and Simon Escobedo and Mike Munoz and Sean Hahn and of course Rich Pierce and everybody for doing everything that they could to keep things going here while I was on Long Island.

And it was a very good trip. I can give you some a little bit of a report on what took place there. And you know Rich when I came in I noticed both microphones this direction. So now I'm starting to wonder hmm.

But we should put a little sign on this says do not use. It does not work. No you know we should do do nothing. Tune in Monday afternoon to Marty Minto show and laugh hysterically for the first five minutes.

Well nothing happens whatsoever because no one gets around to fixing it. That's that's probably what we should do. Okay nobody tell Marty. Okay it'll be our big our big secret here on Saturday afternoon.

No one tell Marty that the main studio microphone does not work because I'm taller than Marty and I can reach the other microphones a lot easier when we leave. We're gonna put all the microphones as far away from over here as we can and we'll see what happens.

No we're not gonna do that. Of course we would not do something like that. Hey and some of you may subscribe to the Christian Research Journal and volume 22 number 3 just came out. The front cover says atheism today.

And the middle article the feature article in the very middle of the magazine is called beyond the veil of eternity the importance of Philippians 2 5 to 11 in theology and apologetics by myself and my goodness they went the artsy route on this particular article.

It's beautiful unfortunately completely and totally unphotocopy able because it's on a black background white lettering all sorts of art done on it but it is beautifully done. And Philippians 2 5 to 11 is of course one of my favorite passages and all the scripture.

And here you have a 47 4800 word article on Philippians 2 5 to 11 including my own translation of the passage I interacted with with Dan Wallace's view here and all sorts of neat fun stuff. So the current edition of the CRI Journal if you do not subscribe to it you might want to track down a copy of it anyways I think they're like 650 or $5 or something like that says 650 on the front but this is especially good issue.

There's all sorts of neat fun stuff. There's a entire article on baptism by H Wayne house which is real good. There's a section on atheism and then there was a section on deconstructing liberal tolerance by Francis Beckwith which is really good.

And that's such a common issue that we have to deal with today. The media's use the term tolerance and yet the media today is the most intolerant it has ever been of any view that espouses truth. The logical errors in the argumentation used by the left and the liberal media today is absolutely amazing.

And all of its in this articles. All of this issue the Christian Research Journal so you might want to track it down. My articles right in the middle on Philippians 2 5 through 11 and I think I have something in the next edition as well.

I wrote the counterpoint the negative counterpoint on the subject of the Augsburg Confession the Augsburg Confession the Augsburg Accord the Catholic Lutheran Accord that was assigned last year 1999 October 31st 1999.

I wrote the negative on it and Ralph McKenzie wrote the positive on it. Ralph thinks it's a good idea and I think it's a bad idea and I think that'll be in the next edition of the CRI Journal. I don't know when that comes out however I didn't even know this one was out until people started talking to me about it and my copy arrived this week.

So beyond the veil of eternity importance of Philippians 2 5 through 11 also of course this is the first chance I've had to make reference to other than on my cell phone as I have called in the release the Potter's Freedom we're getting some tremendous response to the book.

I think Rich has probably mentioned the fact that we have gotten more response to the book than we've gotten to any other book that we have allowed to be pre-publication ordered over the website. But we got our first negative response this week.

I suppose we should be honest you know we had gotten a lot of tremendously positive response to the book but we got our first negative response. But I don't get the feeling that this negative responder actually took the time to read the book.

Here's here's the email that we that we got. I'm reading off of my trusty palm pilot here and I usually agree with dr. white. However when it comes to salvation there are some issues I do not agree with.

I used to think those were secondary issues that shouldn't but I have come to realize that dr. white is willing to divide over it. His theology is beginning to show the symptoms of a cult. When it comes to Calvinism he simply can't bear the thought that he might be wrong on some issues.

Although he won't admit it he has not written a book rebutting dr. Geisler's book. It's almost as if he becomes extremely irritated when somebody does not agree with him. You have to ask yourself is he doing God's work by snapping at every person who dares question his position on salvation.

I pray the Lord helps him realize that he is attacking the wrong people much like Saul before he became a born-again Christian he thought he was doing God's work and was a hundred and ten percent convinced of it.

God bless. I just love the taglines. God bless Gil. Well you know Gil I don't get the feeling that you read the potter's freedom because I think if you would you wouldn't accuse me of entering into cultism symptoms of a cult and nor would you believe that I can't bear the thought that I might be wrong on some issues.

You know what. Gil I am wrong on some issues. I just don't know which ones they are yet and I'm willing to be corrected and in fact I'm the one asking for public discussion of these issues. I may well be wrong on all sorts of things I'm willing to hear.

But you know on this subject especially Gil so far my my singular experience is that when we get down to actually discussing the text of Scripture the folks who disagree with me just won't do that part.

And if you're gonna show that I'm wrong about something Gil please you say you disagree with me on this. Please read the book and show me where I'm wrong from Scripture. I've had conversations with all sorts of folks that felt that I was wrong.

But when we got down to the actual discussion of Scripture and that unfortunately happens very rarely. In other words a lot of folks are all I disagree with you on that stuff. But I'm not gonna argue with you but I wouldn't want to debate you on it.

Well why not if I'm wrong about let's discuss it biblically. Let's go to John 6. Let's go to Ephesians 1. Let's go to Romans 9. Let's roll up our sleeves and let's do the exegesis. I can't I can't get folks to do that for some strange reason.

So when you say he has not written a book rebutting dr. Geisler's book I just say read the book. Read the book yourself. Find out if that's not exactly what it is and I think that you'll discover that you are in error.

But I don't get the feeling that you actually read the book. Those who have read the book have been very thankful for it. In fact I didn't bring it with me but I did add this to the the web page. If you want to go to www .aomin .org slash capital T capital P capital F dot HTML TPF for the potter's freedom TPF that HTML you will find that I've added at the bottom there a comment that was made on the Reformed Baptist discussion list by mr. is there whoson.

That's how I'd say it. It could be there whoson. It could be there whoson. We've only communicated by electronic means and therefore you don't get to find out where all the accents are on these syllables that way.

But they believe it was Bob's there whoson wrote a very nice review of the book and the thing I liked the most about it was side of the fact it was positive was that mr. sir whoson said specifically that he had been looking for a book to give to people to introduce them to the doctrines of grace that would that would do the whole job.

And he said this is the book and so I'm very pleased by that type of review and that type of commentary. Now we've got let me see here forgotten Trinity advice for witnessing to the Mormons. I'm looking at the topics of the colors.

So far the phones are already open at 602 274 1361 triple 8 5 5 0 1360. I'm glad that I've said one triple 8 5 5 0 1360 so many times because I walked out of the Reformed Baptist Church their grace reform Baptist Church in Merrick pull out the trusty cell phone and go now what number am I calling.

You said the number over and over and over again and then you stand there going. Oh man it's amazing how we can see there's it's up on though it's on a window. You know every time you hear Marty Minto said he's not.

It's not memorized. I mean I'm looking at it's written right over there on a window right through. Actually it's through a window and it's on a second window the window in front of where Rich Pierce is sitting and he's looking at it backwards.

You probably can say it backwards because you see it backwards all the time but I see it from this direction and it's one triple 8 5 5 0 13 60. We invite your participation. I thankfully remembered it during that conference and by the way we are going to be making that conference available.

I think after rich gets done squishing and squeezing and editing I'm sort of guesstimating that we're probably looking at about 12 tapes. That's that's my guesstimate. I think if we a bunch of the folks went long I never went long and I'm not going to tell you who did I'm not going to mention Rob Zins or or David King or expense.

I'm not gonna mention the fact that the other three guys went beyond their time. So I'm not gonna mention names right. I would never do that. That'd be very very crass and unkind. But I since I stayed within my time frame then I think if we and some of the questions don't need to be on the tapes we we had one fellow attend the conference that said some very had some very interesting questions that really didn't have anything to do with Roman Catholicism whatsoever.

In fact one night he wanted to debate pacifism with me and I did. That doesn't really need to be on the tape series but once we squish them all down I think we'll be able to get to about 12 tapes and excellent excellent stuff.

One of David King's a tremendous preacher. He preached on the effect of Romans 117 on Luther and I mean you just want to you just want to repent all over again when it gets done. And then Eric Svensson his discussion of the epistemological fallacies of Roman Catholic apologetics was just wonderful.

And the thing that I really got out of it that just really helped me a lot was you know he talked about a number of the questions that I've asked a Roman Catholic apologists over the years which includes pointing out to them that their claim of being infallibly certain of the meaning of a particular text of scripture because Rome's told them or infallibly certain about what the books in the canon are because Rome's told them that that claim simply doesn't carry any water.

Obviously they have made a fallible decision to follow Rome's infallible teaching. There are other groups they could have chosen it could have chosen Mormons. They could have chosen Jehovah's Witnesses.

There's all sorts of folks that will will say hey accept my religious authority and I'll answer all the questions for you. But the civil fact matter is when you make that decision you're making a fallible decision.

And so when Roman Catholic apologists say well you Protestants you don't claim to be infallible and so you need to have infallible certainty and this infallible certainty comes from the authority of Christ Church which is the Church of Rome etc etc.

He did an excellent job in pointing that out and that's a question I've asked. But the thing that I hadn't done which I now will constantly do is he pointed out the fact that we often let Roman Catholic apologists get away with comparing apples and oranges and this is what Patrick Madrid does all the time Patrick Madrid the editor of envoy magazine and his a constant drumbeat of solo scriptura blueprint for anarchy and what Roman Catholic apologists will do mr. Madrid in particular but all the others in their various and sundry ways is he will say well look solo scriptura has resulted in doctrinal chaos.

Look at all the different Protestant denominations that exist out there and what that involves. Aside from the fact that it doesn't work I mean look at the Roman Catholic system. You can find as many different viewpoints within Roman Catholicism as you can find within biblical Protestantism.

There's liberal Catholics and mainline Catholics and traditionalists and all sorts of stuff like that. The simple fact the matter is the argument doesn't hold on that level. But even better as a response as dr. Svensson pointed out is to point out that they are comparing a rule of faith to a denomination.

That is they're comparing a rule of faith solo scriptura to a denomination Roman Catholicism. If you're going to make the comparison work then what you need to do is you need to compare rule of faith to rule of faith or denomination to denomination.

In other words let's do a denomination to denomination comparison. Let's compare Roman Catholicism with Reformed Baptist. We were to Reform Baptist Church so it was good to pick on us and besides that I'm Reformed Baptist.

So our Reformed Baptist as a whole more doctrinally united than Roman Catholics. Well that's not even a question. Of course they are. There's I mean we're talking factors of ten here as to how more united Reformed Baptists are in their common beliefs than Roman Catholics are.

So if you want to compare denominations denomination you got to do it that way or let's compare rule of faith to rule of faith. Let's compare solo scriptura to the rule of faith of Roman Catholicism which would be scripture plus an infallible interpreter.

That's what Rome claims. Of course Rome says well we we also have tradition. But what tradition is is only what the infallible interpreter tells you it is. So let's compare those two. Let's compare rule of faith to rule of faith.

If you if you compare say three denominations that use solo scriptura. And since we had a bunch of different denominations they're speaking at the conference let's let's compare the Reformed Baptists the Evie free and the PCA because one of our speakers was a PCA minister.

Compare those three groups and then compare Roman Catholicism Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses. And immediately they jump up in the air and throw papers in the air and dirt away. Wait you can't do that.

But the point is each one of those groups uses the same type of rule of faith that is scripture plus an infallible interpreter. Ah you now you start seeing what the real comparisons are. How much more united are the three groups that use solo scriptura in their fundamental theological affirmations than those three groups that use scripture plus an infallible interpreter.

You can't even get the same doctrine of God out of those three groups. But of course you get the exact same doctrine of God from the three groups using solo scriptura. You get justification by faith. You get the inspired scriptures.

You get all this unity and the fundamentals of what the Christian faith is amongst those groups that use solo scriptura. But you don't get that amongst those groups that use scripture plus infallible interpreter.

In fact they end up with different gods and different views of Christ. And different views almost everything. So I found it fascinating to be challenged to remember to not allow the Roman Catholic apologists to get away but in comparing apples and oranges because the fact that in so doing they are giving us a very invalid argument.

Now very quickly many of you are wondering when will we be able to get the tapes of these debate against Robertson Jenison. Justification by grace through faith alone without human works of merit was the specific thesis statement of the debate as well as the debate with Paul Barber Church of Christ minister from from you know I've got his card right here.

I'm going to pull it out of there. It is hmm North Borough. Here we go. Paul Barber North Borough Church of Christ in North Borough Massachusetts. Four to six West Main Street North Borough Massachusetts.

That's where it is. Anyways when are we going to be able to get the tapes of those debates. Well the tapes of the debate on election where I defended the biblical doctrine of election against Paul Barber who denies that kind of election.

Obviously Church of Christ is not exactly known for being overly Calvinistic. Those tapes are sitting at the office they are ready to go. And all you need to do is need to call Rich Pierce and tell him to get him ready.

No no no no no no you can't you can't turn that. You know you can't turn that microphone on and complain about what I just said. You just can't do that because you know you must admit that's a no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Indeed they have. And your little minion here is having a great time shipping out the Potter's freedom. Well I do need to do a little touch-up on the on the masters of those and then and I believe I should have everything ready around the middle of June and I will be posting that on the website.

12 days indeed the 12 days of June but I will be posting on the main page that all of what's ready there at a omin org. So when it comes to what's going to be ready and when pay no attention all right.

Okay. Well thank you very much rich. That's just all to point out that the debate is sitting there. It is it is you know available it just matter of you know touching it up I guess the syngenous debate normally takes more time mainly because it was record on video and then it has to be dubbed down and then the audio normally comes first have to take the audio off the video all the rest that type of stuff so that generally takes a month or two before we we have that kind of stuff available.

Generally the audio becomes available first and then the videos become available after that. Now you may be asking well should we should we be looking forward to getting this debate. Yes I think you should.

Well was it better than last year's debate where you felt that there was just basically two different debates going on. One debates on the mass which I was pursuing and one debate on eternal security of the book of Hebrews which is what mr. syngenous was pursuing and the fact that I I've made it very publicly known that I felt there was a tremendous amount of personal ad hominem that there was a unnecessary remarks being made during the debate that really caused last year's debate the 1999 debate in the mass to be less than useful.

This year was not that way. Mr. syngenous and I had agreed in fact we wrote a joint statement that appears on the web page about how these debates should be undertaken. We agreed to focus on the subject and that's exactly what we did.

And so yes you will want to get hold of this debate. I think that my my desire I know that my desire is I went to the debate was to make sure that everyone could everyone who heard that debate whether they were there at the Huntington townhouse that night in the middle of that blinding storm that they had or listen to it by tape watch it on video.

However you might see it that everyone at the end of that debate would recognize one thing that is that the reformed position focuses upon God and his ability to save his people. It is a theocentric gospel God is the one who saves and that the Roman Catholic viewpoint is focused upon man.

It is an anthropocentric viewpoint a synergistic viewpoint that God wants to save but outside of the cooperation of man the collaboration of man the grace of God cannot save in that system. That was what I wanted to see clearly presented.

And it was in fact I knew that it would be unless my opponent did not debate the issue because as long as he debated the issue no matter what scripture passage we were examining no matter what questions were being asked and answered it would be clear in every single situation that as we looked even at the same passage of scripture that one of us would look at it from a theocentric perspective the other from an anthropocentric perspective.

And I think anyone who listens will be able to recognize that there were certain assertions that I made in my opening statement that mistress and Janice never even attempted to address one for example is the fact that faith is a gift divine gift from God that was not even disputed and not in the sense that he agrees because he does not.

But there was no attempt on his part to refute that information refute those passages. I think he was a little bit surprised that rather than doing what for example I've done with gerrymatitics and Mitchell Pacwa in the past and that is focusing upon the meanings of justification righteousness imputation faith using Genesis 15 6 is the key passage.

I really focused upon the necessity of justification by grace through faith alone based upon the sovereignty of God the deadness of man and sin. And so I focused upon the fact that the Bible teaches a monergistic view of salvation whereas Roman Catholicism presents a synergistic view.

And so I I even challenged the Protestants who were in the audience that evening hey on this issue if you call yourself a Protestant but you're a synergist if you're like Paul Barber the Church of Christ minister that I debated a few if you are like well let's be honest Norman Geisler because he makes this direct statement.

In fact I need to mention this before I forget it in both debates in the debate with Robertson Jenison justification the debate with Paul Barber the Church of Christ minister the arguments that both used in regards to synergism faith and a universal call shall we say in a sense of well it's God's will to save everybody and his will gets frustrated.

And this whole Calvinistic particularism is wrong. The arguments used by both Paul Barber and Robertson Jenison were identical even to the verses used as what is found and chosen but free by Norman Geisler.

It was. It was amazing. In fact in the Barber debate the Church of Christ minister was using the exact same phraseology he went to first Timothy 2 for he used the exact same argument that that Norman Geisler uses in his book.

I had prepared for that debate. We're using PowerPoint and I had an entire presentation based on one of the chapters in the potter's freedom on the big three Matthew twenty three thirty seven first Timothy two four and second Peter three nine was ready to go with a response to each one of those.

And guess what happened during the question answer period with Robertson Jenison. One of the last question that he asked me in the question answer period was given your view of of election. Dr. White actually was always Mr. Dr. White unusual.

There's a new title Mr. Dr. what do you do with first Timothy 2 for which reads. And the exact same argument presented by Robertson Jenison. The correct question answer period that is found of course throughout chosen but free and respond to in the potter's freedom.

So synergism is synergism. And if you're a synergist you're quite simply on these issues of the nature of faith grace the purpose of God and salvation. If you're a synergist you agree with Rome. Now you may be firmly against Rome.

I'm sure that pastor barber is firmly against Roman Catholicism. But when it comes to the issue of the gospel the issue of grace the issue of faith the nature of those things Paul barber agrees with Rome on those issues against the reformers as does Norman Geisler.

And I pointed that out in the very first chapter of the potter's freedom. That's that is why this is so important. That's why we have to challenge people to think about. So we have two colors online. We have two lines open at 602 -274 -1361.

888 -550 -1360 will be taking your phone calls right after this break and welcome.

Back to the dividing line. My name is James White. It's a Saturday afternoon and we have callers online. In fact we have a caller calling all the way from. You didn't see how you type that. Did you rich.

Birmingham Birmingham. I'm sorry rich I shouldn't have mentioned that on. It's my microphone on. Are we back on. Oh I'm. Hi Jim. How you doing. Are you in Birmingham England. Oh sure. I'm a friend of a mountain.

Yes that's what I understand. Yeah she. I'm from to ask.

Because I've been witnessing to where well before my mom and lads I've been calling to my house over the past three weeks. Yes. And I've actually got myself during the first Sunday in every month they had this witness in a church like fasting and testimony Sunday.

Yes. I'm hoping I'm actually going to Sunday for for a part of the meeting right. And I'm hoping to get a chance to get to give my testimony like right now first of all I want to ask how do you actually get up there right.

And secondly of all right I mean I'll be thinking about it. I've been following which quite a lot right. I've been thinking about just speaking on grace right. Right. I'm not to give my testimony but of course there the one thing I found true actually wasn't with these lads right is when I start quoting scripture they turn off.

Just turn off like I'm amazed right. I've not. There's one lad who actually lives right beside the chap that's on that video called the Godmakers right. He carries a picture of a Joseph Smith right. And the veneration it's almost like Mary worship if you know what I.

Mean like is he where is he from. He's actually. I don't know where he's from but he tells me.

John a video called the Godmakers that the chap that actually done that he lives right next to the chap that actually done that video so he's not from the United States. Well actually he's what he is.

He actually a he was a Greek Orthodox. Okay so it's stranger but yeah I must really just because I've never gone to one of.

These things before I'm just really well let me tell you a little bit about what what to expect and I'll give you this information from the fact that I have gone to fasting and testimony meetings and given my testimony but rich probably shared that with you.

So basically what you're going to encounter because most of them run pretty much along the same lines is some singing and then the time is going to be opened up and individuals are allowed to simply get up out of their seat walk down to the front and I don't know if the war chapel that you're going to be going to is overly fancy or not.

The one that I first did this at was pretty neat because it had a hydraulic pulpit they adjusted it to your height so if a little kid goes up there it sort of goes down and the little kid can say something that you know big ball tall basketball player goes way up high.

So you go up there and generally at most fasting and testimony meetings there aren't a whole lot of folks who get up and say things and the general testimonies are like you know the housewife gets up and and I'm so thankful for the church and for the fellowship and maybe a little kid will get up and you know I love my mommy my daddy and my brothers and my sisters and I know that Gordon Hinkley is a prophet and that Joseph Smith was a prophet in the Book of Mormon's Word of God amen type of thing.

But basically what I did is I got up there and unfortunately what happened was when I stood up to go up front right. Then somebody who was closer got up front. Well I was already standing so I was stuck and so I had to go down there and I had to sit in one that there's the War Chapel I went to.

There were chairs back behind the pulpit and that's where the bishop was sitting so I had to sit next to the bishop. Well well this other person talked for a little while and then I got a chance to go up there.

So what I did is I got up there and I said hi my name is James White and I'm very glad to have the opportunity to share my testimony with you today especially due to the fact that I'm not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints.

As soon as I said that up to that point there was a lot of people like moving around and milling around and and you know babies crying and you know a guy in the back sleeping and that type of thing. As soon as I said that the place became absolutely silent.

You could hear you could hear a pin drop even the babies were quiet. It was an amazing guy woke up it was an amazing amazing thing to see. I mean I had their attention big-time and what I had done is I had I had memorized a number of passages of scripture but I tied them together so that I was I was in essence saying what I'd like to share with you is is why it is that I can have confidence that I have peace with God.

And I had a number of passages that talked about what grace and justification really mean and I got about halfway through them before this little thing sort of flew over from the left-hand side. It landed on the pulpit in front of me and it was a folded up bulletin I still have it to this day.

And on the back was written brother white our time is up now. I had been there the month before and I knew how long the time went and we weren't even close to that time being up but basically he was saying okay cut it short buddy.

And so I did. And as soon as I get done I just walked down sat back down my seat my wife was with me and three other people were with me and the line formed on the left. Every missionary in the place was waiting in line and they're all bearing testimony looking straight at me about how they know the church is true.

Yada yada yada yada. And then and then they sang a hymn and as soon as the last note of the organ was playing the first counselor was right at my side with his hand out saying that the bishop would like to speak to you.

And so all five of us piled into the bishop's office and we talked to the bishop for about half an hour or so. And the thing that I remember most about this and this was a number of years ago was that he was offended that one of the things one of the passages that I had mentioned talked about men as sinners.

He said you know President Kimball and that shows you how long ago this was that the Kimball was president time. President Kimball has said that he knows of perfect men on earth. So how do you know I'm a sinner and I had never up to that point realized I needed to memorize passages of scripture talked about the universality of sin.

But I went home and did memorize passages scripture on the universality of sin after that particular experience. So basically that's that's what we did. And if you're looking for advice my advice would be to be very clear succinct in what you're saying.

I wouldn't try to go for as long a list as I had. But the areas that I would suggest going for would be possibly to contrast the the Mormon view of grace with the biblical view of grace that I think is a very very important area that you can go into is to explain exactly what the differences are between what we believe about grace and what they believe about grace.

I'm looking here for a quote that I had on my palm pilot specifically in regards to and I'm not seeing it in regards to their view of grace. Do you have their do you have their King James version of the Bible.

Well the the reason I suggest that is that there is a quotation in fact I'm going to give it to you right now because I found it my palm pilot has has saved me here let me let me read you the definition of grace.

And you have that you have access. Yeah I have I see. Yeah.

But only I'm on the mind because I should go up to the library like where.

It's free. Okay either that or. Or. Or. Have Martin included. Well well you're gonna do this tomorrow. You said yeah I've got on me own. So well what I can do is I can email this to you if you want to use it but let me read it to you first so you can see whether you whether it's interest to you or not.

Please. And Steve and Stephen candle hold on we're gonna get to you. Grace. Here is the definition of the word grace from the LDS Bible dictionary which is published with their King James version of the Bible.