May 10, 2017 Show with Jonathan Masters on “The God We Worship: Adoring the One Who Pursues, Redeems & Changes His People”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 10th day of May 2017.

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In studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello, it's good to be here again.

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And today we have back on the program someone who I really thoroughly enjoyed interviewing the last time he was on,

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Jonathan Master. He is professor of theology and dean of the School of Divinity at Carne University and it was nice to have them manning an exhibitor's booth right across from mine at the

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Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology recently. Carne University, and I'll get my correction in a moment, is located in Langhorne, Pennsylvania, and Jonathan Master is also the editorial director of the

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Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and host of the Alliance podcast, Theology on the

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Go. He's the author of A Question of Consensus, The Doctrine of Assurance After the

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Westminster Confession, and today we're discussing a book he edited for PNR Publishing, also known as Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, The God We Worship, Adoring the

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One Who Pursues, Redeems, and Changes His People, and that features such authors as D .A.

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Carson, Brian Chappell, Charles Drew, Michael Haken, Michael Horton, Albert Moeller, Richard Phillips, Joseph Ryan, and Philip Graham Reichen, and I believe

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I've interviewed every single one of those individuals, and in fact I know I have, with the exception of Joseph Ryan, but we're also going to be promoting today a conference coming up that our guest will be featured at, along with a number of other speakers.

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That's the Banner of Truth 2017 U .S. Ministers Conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at Elizabethtown College, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jonathan Master.

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Chris, Buzz, thank you for having me. It's great to be back with you. Oh, it's great to have you back, and before I continue with our topic at hand, and I will eventually get this pronounced correctly, but is it

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Carn or Cairn? Yeah, it's Cairn, like air, Cairn University, but listen, you're not the first and you won't be the last, and I can keep reminding you as long as you get it wrong.

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And tell us about Cairn University. Cairn's been around for over 100 years, and we are a

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Christian, fairly conservative Christian university, still firmly committed to the inerrancy of the scriptures and the centrality of the personal work of Jesus Christ.

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I like the way you said, still, because unfortunately more and more seminaries and Christian colleges, so -called

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Christian colleges, are no longer defending and proclaiming that truth. Well, you're right.

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I mean, sadly that is the case, and so I'm grateful for the fact that we are still firmly committed to that at every level.

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Number of different majors that students can pursue, but every student who's an undergrad does 30 hours, 30 credit hours of Bible and theology, so while they are not all technically

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Bible majors, it sort of infuses the whole place. So it's a place

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I love. I would encourage anyone there who's listening, who's thinking about college, or who has kids or grandkids thinking about it, to look us up.

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Cairnuniversity .cairn .edu. And for quite a while we have been promoting a lot of the events orchestrated by the

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Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and have been interviewing speakers involved in their events.

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Tell us something about the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, where you are editorial director.

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Well, the Alliance is a coalition of pastors and scholars and churchmen who hold to the historic creeds and confessions of the

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Reformed faith, and whose desire is to see an awakening of biblical doctrine in churches today.

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And so to that end, the Alliance sponsors a number of conferences, and you've been in a few. I think you were recently at the flagship

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Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. Yes. There are others beyond that one. The Alliance also has a number of websites where we offer free content to people.

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Reformation21 .org, the one that I had the privilege of helping to found, placefortruth .org,

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Mortification of Spin. We also have some podcasts. I host

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Theology on the Go, which is one of our podcasts. You can get on iTunes or elsewhere. And then

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Mortification of Spin, as well, is a well -known podcast. We also have a website called

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Meet the Puritans, and one called ChristWord Collective. So the Alliance is doing an awful lot of things, but really the aim of it is just to proclaim biblical doctrine in order to foster a

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Reformed awakening. And tell us about your podcast, Theology on the Go. The idea behind Theology on the

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Go was to do brief interviews, usually they're around 15 minutes, sometimes they go a little longer, sometimes a little shorter, on particular theological topics or themes, or sometimes figures, they're sometimes biographical.

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And so it's one person, one topic, a brief little sort of snapshot of that, and we find a lot of people say it's the perfect sort of length for their commute, or for just something to listen to on the way to and from wherever they're going, maybe when they're walking the dog, or something like that.

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And that's really the aim. It's just, we call it a brief interview about an eternal truth. Yeah, I just had an idea flash into my head for someone who might want to start a fast food restaurant where people go through a drive -thru, and the lady yells out to the chef, a cheeseburger, a large vanilla shake, and A .W.

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Pink tracked. Yeah, well, what we hope is, it's a funny image, what we hope is that we're providing something a little more spiritually nutritious than you might get at your average fast food place.

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Yeah, I was not meaning to give a demeaning remark there about what you're doing.

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Well, I'm going to give our email address right away for our listeners who would like to join us on the air with a question.

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It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. And I love, absolutely love the title of this book that you've edited,

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The God We Worship Adoring the One Who Pursues, Redeems and Changes His People.

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This seems to be a summary of the Reformed faith. In fact, if this were an

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Arminian book, I imagine it would be called The God We Worship Adoring the

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One Who Pursues, Tries to Redeem and Tries to Change His People.

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But we don't believe that God tries to do anything, do we? No, I mean, the language was very intentional, and you don't have to read very far.

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Are you there, brother? Yeah, I'm still here. I'm still here. Yeah, that was just a computer noise here.

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No problem. No problem. That happens to me all the time. No, so your observation is a great one.

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We were intentional with the language. You know, the God of the

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Bible accomplishes His purposes, and so He's not some figure who's trying or who's making an effort.

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He accomplishes what He purposes to accomplish, and so you are absolutely right to read the kind of definiteness of the language in the subtitle, and that's certainly a big part of what we're trying to communicate in the book.

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Yeah, my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has often said that he fails to see the appeal of building churches that are seeker -sensitive, and he says, why are you building a church for people that don't exist?

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Because the one seeker that does exist is God. He's the one, as you say in your title, who pursues.

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Yeah, I mean, I've always, you know, I think we all know what people mean when they talk about sort of the seeker, but the truth is, as you well know, the

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Scriptures are clear. No one seeks after God, and so, you know, well again,

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I don't want to belabor the point because I think we understand the kind of thing that's intended by it, but you're right.

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Theologically speaking, it's God who seeks us. In fact, I want to go through every important word in this title to go through the content of what we are discussing today, and it may seem silly, but I think that starting with the word

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God is important because not everybody has the same understanding of who

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God is. In fact, not even every professing Christian, unfortunately, and I did say the word professing

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Christian, not every professing Christian believes in God the same way, but let's start with God.

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Who is the God that we worship? Well, I mean,

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I think there are a lot of different ways to answer it. The way that we start in this particular book is to talk about God's holiness, and to show how the

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Bible reveals God as a holy God who dwells in unapproachable light, a

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God who is, in one sense, you know, awe -inspiring, and this is terrifying in our conception.

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I think if you wanted to give a more concise definition, this isn't exactly where we begin in the book, although I would argue it's implicit in the whole thing.

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You'd say something like, God is the one who is infinite in being and perfection.

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He is, you know, invisible without body, parts, or passions.

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I mean, I think there is language we could grasp, but what we focus on here is the holiness and the glory of God.

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Amen, and He is not a God that paces back and forth, sweating and wringing

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His hands, filled with anxiety, hoping that people come to Him, hoping that people respond to the

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Gospel message the way that many outside of the Reformed faith paint that kind of an image of God, of Jesus.

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Oh, He wants you to come to Him, and it's up to you. It's all up to you to finalize this contract to become saved, and this is obviously not only the antithesis of Reformed theology, it's the antithesis of the

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Scripture. Well, you're right. I mean, certainly the Scripture does not portray

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God in that kind of a frustrated fashion. The Bible does give a call to repentance where Paul can stand on top of Mars Hill and say, quite simply,

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God commands all men ever to repent, so we're right to give a universal offer of the

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Gospel. But nonetheless, you're absolutely right. God Himself is not frustrated, and as you say, pacing back and forth, wondering what's going to happen, hoping someone might possibly listen to His plea.

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That's just not the picture of the God of the Bible. Now, we,

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I think is an important word too, because in a day of rampant ecumenism going mad, you have those who are professing

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Christians, you have pastors, you have seminary professors, you have seminary presidents, you have media personalities really blurring the lines between true and false religion.

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And you have ecumenical gatherings of those who profess to be

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Christian, offering prayer and worship to an unnamed God, along with those who are pagans and Christ rejecters and so on.

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The we, in your title there, aren't we to be worshiping this

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God with those who are truly His children? Well, absolutely.

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I think that's a great point, you know, that this we is actually the people of God.

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These are actual believers in Jesus Christ who are approaching God as He has revealed

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Himself in His Word and through His Son, and there is no other way to approach

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God truly than through His Son. And there's no way to understand how to worship

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God but through His Word. I think another way to look at the we and the significance of it is to say it's in contrast simply to I.

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It is true, of course, that we are called to repent personally.

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We are called to personally trust in Jesus Christ.

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But at the same time, the picture of worship that we get in the Bible is a corporate picture, and the picture we have of worship in heaven is a corporate picture.

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So I think both things are implied. I think what you're saying is very important, that we're talking about the living body of Christ, those who are genuine believers approaching

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God in and through His Son and guided by His Word, and also that is a corporate entity, not simply an individual kind of solo arrangement between oneself and the

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Lord. In fact, I could have even, going along with that concept of being in contrast to the modern ecumenical movement,

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I could have even started with the word the God because of the fact that you have a lot of people today, even some professing

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Christians, who are saying that it is not really important that we get the details straight on the deity we worship, like the

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Trinity and the deity of Christ, as long as somebody is worshipping a creator up there in the sky who is more powerful and majestic than we are.

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That's all that really matters, and you have even professing

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Christians going to drug and alcohol rehabilitation meetings where they will link arms with those who deny

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Christ and pray with them to an unnamed God. You see this happen all the time at sporting events and public events where those outside of the

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Christian faith are gathered with some Christians and they all join together in giving some kind of a recognition to some kind of a

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God, but this does not honor the God that we Christians worship, does it? Yeah, no,

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I think it's an excellent point. I mean, if you just look at the Old Testament, none of the enemies of Israel were, or let me put it differently, all the enemies of Israel believed in some kind of God, and the

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Lord did not say to His people, link arms with those who worship Baal, link arms with those who worship

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Asherah because they are higher power and so are you. There is this radical difference between all the other false gods of the nations and the living and true

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Creator God of the Scriptures, and that is equally true today, that we are not talking about one

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God among many or that it's simply good enough to believe in some kind of higher being, however you conceive of that, but rather we are talking about the

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Creator God who has revealed Himself preeminently in the person of Jesus Christ and has revealed

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Himself to us in His Word, and that's the God we worship. Amen.

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And well, let's move on to worship. What exactly does worship mean?

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Because it's been interesting. I have been, since 1995, I have been involved in orchestrating debates between theologically

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Reformed Protestants and Roman Catholics among representatives of other religions, like Muslims and so on, but when it comes to the

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Roman Catholic debates that I've orchestrated, it seems very often when the issues of Mary and the

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Saints come up, the Catholics seem to redefine worship in subtle ways to make their honor to Mary and the

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Saints more palatable to Protestants, and I think that they are giving different labels to things that are really the same thing, but if you could define worship for us.

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I think at a basic level, worship is ascribing worth to God.

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I mean, that's just kind of an etymological definition. I think when we talk about worship, though, at least in this book, we're talking about approaching

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God with His people according to His Word. So when we immediately talk about worship, and I think this gets to the point you're making,

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Chris, the minute we begin talking about worship, we really have to talk about how

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God has revealed Himself in His Word, and to approach, to think we can approach

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Him in a way other than that, is really simply to delude ourselves.

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And what would be the elements of true worship that God's people are incorporating into those acts of devotion?

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When we gather together corporately, and I'm thinking now again of corporate and public worship,

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I think the Scriptures have given us good guidelines for that, and certainly we need to be praying together, we need to...

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God's Word has to be at the center of everything, so both the preached Word, the red

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Word, Paul is very clear to give attention to the public reading of Scripture.

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I do think it's appropriate and biblical for us to be engaged in singing when we gather together to worship, but I do think the

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Lord has given us these ordinances, or perhaps you want to say sacraments, of the

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Lord's Supper and baptism that are part of public worship as well. But you know,

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I think that the other really deep issue is when we gather together for worship, we have to understand the

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God whom we're approaching. So I know I'm kind of circling back to the point you made earlier, but...

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Are you there, brother? It's just God we're worshiping. Yeah, you cut out there for a second, so I don't know why, but if you could repeat what you said.

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I don't know where I cut out, but I would say at a deep level, apart from the basic elements of worship,

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I think we have to be really clear on who God is when we approach Him, and the only way we can know that is by studying

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His Word. And would you not say that when you are attributing to an entity, being the source of grace, being the source of blessings, being the fountain of mercy and forgiveness, and all these things that the

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Roman Catholics are offering up in prayer to Mary, are they not worshiping her, irregardless of what they are saying?

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Many of them will say that they do not worship Mary, they merely venerate her.

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They are not, and of course they give her a higher level of veneration than the other saints, but is this not worship, regardless of what they would call it?

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Well, I think it is, and I think you could tackle that at least two levels. First of all, I think the very things they're saying, things they're ascribing, things they are asking for from Mary or other saints would be associated with worship.

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But at another, even deeper level, by not following the prescriptions of the

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Scriptures, by not attributing all of those things to God, they are robbing

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God of the worship that He is due, and in so doing, are entering into a kind of idolatry.

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So I think I agree with you about your read on what's actually happening there, but even if someone were to say to me, no, no,

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I refuse to accept the idea that I'm worshiping Mary or something else, but you're not appropriately worshiping

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God, and so regardless of what you think is going on with Mary or the saints, you are, in a sense, robbing

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God of the worship that is due to Him. Yeah, I'd like to, just because of the fact that we are talking about a

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God that we who are Christians are to worship, and there are many who profess to be

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Christians who would claim that those who deny the deity of Christ and deny the

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Trinity are, they would claim that they are also worshiping

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God, just because of perhaps some imagined connection to the

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Old Testament before Christ was revealed more clearly in the New. We have in the

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Catholic Catechism, paragraph 841, the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the

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Creator in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one merciful

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God, mankind's judge on the last day. This is not true, is it?

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Well, no, it's absolutely false, and more than that, you know, it's destructive, because it's not only telling people a lie, it's really giving false hope to those who need a clear presentation of the

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Gospel of Jesus Christ made to them. So it's destructive on a number of levels, and you know,

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I think part of the error that we can slip into in this whole topic is, in discussing worship and in some sense removing it from the

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God we worship, we can sort of get caught up in the elements of what worship feels like or means at an individual level, and lose focus on the fact that this is the

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God of the Bible, and He's the only one who's deserving of our worship. But yeah,

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I mean, at a basic level, you're absolutely right. What you read is not only false, it is sadly destructive for so many people.

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Yes, and that is in the primary catechism of the

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Roman Catholic Church, which is very disturbing and should shake evangelicals out of any delusion that we can have true ecumenism with them.

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And now I have to repeat that I believe that there are going to be many Catholics in heaven, but I believe that is because they have believed the true

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Gospel in spite of the false Gospel proclaimed by Rome. And in fact,

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I believe not only will there be many Catholics in heaven, I believe that there are going to be many professing

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Calvinists in hell. So I am not trying to be a bigot here,

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I am a former Roman Catholic, I went to Catholic school for eight years, was an altar boy, and I have many people still enslaved in the false religion of Rome and my family, so I do have a very strong passion and burden to see them released from that false religion.

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And I know that those words may sound strong to a lot of people, but I just happen to believe that you cannot defend that religion as a biblically faithful religion when they have so many very serious and glaring errors in spite of those things that they believe that are true, that they believe along with us, like the

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Trinity and the deity of Christ, the virgin birth of Christ and the bodily resurrection of Christ and so on.

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I mean, we have the Judaizers in the book of Galatians, we have

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Paul in his letter to the church at Galatia condemning the Judaizers just for adding one thing to the gospel, circumcision.

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And that was enough for Paul to announce an anathema upon them.

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Do you think I'm being too strong here in my wording? No, I don't, and I mean certainly given what you've experienced and the close contact you've had with many who are deceived by,

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I think, the things that the Roman Catholic Church teaches, I think your language is entirely warranted.

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I mean, to be honest, if you felt that way and didn't express it that clearly, you know, someone could question your sincerity about it, but it's obviously, you know, something that you know from hard -won experience.

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And I think as well, anything that cloaks or muddies the waters of the gospel that's revealed to us in the scriptures is something we have to resist with every fiber of our being, as Paul does in the letter to the

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Galatians and, you know, maybe most clearly in Galatians chapter 1, where he says if anyone comes with the gospel contrary to the one that was preached to you, whether I or an angel from heaven, it needs to be a curse.

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Yes, and of course I think this is appropriate to be speaking about during the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation because people are going to want to know when we mention, oh

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I'm going to this conference that is in commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation, or my congregation is having a special Reformation Day celebration for the 500th anniversary.

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People are going to be asking, well what's that about? Why is this Reformation so important, etc.?

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And it is much, much more than a quaint custom that you want to give special honor to your specific denomination or something.

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This was really when the light of the gospel was unearthed after having been buried for centuries by tons of false religion and heretical practice and works righteousness superstitions that the

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Church of Rome heaped on what was once openly declared as the true gospel, not only in the scriptures but even in the early church and among their own church fathers, the ones that they claim as their own.

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Yeah, I mean the Reformation had so many effects in so many different areas and one of the dangers

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I think at an anniversary year is people can focus on the peripheral effects.

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You know, I read an article over the weekend about the effects of the Reformation on education or the effects of the

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Reformation on our conception of politics. Very important things. I don't want to minimize them, but of course what you're saying is at the core that the most important features of that movement of the

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Lord were in the area of the renewed clarity about the gospel of grace.

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And we have to go to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -s -e -n at gmail .com. If you have a question for Jonathan Master, and we look forward to hearing from you after the break.

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Don't go away, we'll be right back, God willing, with more of Jonathan Master and the God we worship.

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Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

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Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

38:59

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

39:05

Jonathan Master, and we are discussing a book he edited for PNR Publishing, The God We Worship, Adoring the

39:13

One Who Pursues, Redeems, and Changes His People. And our guest,

39:19

Jonathan Master, is going to be one of the speakers at the upcoming Banner of Truth Ministers Conference.

39:26

This May 30th through June 1st. That's Tuesday, May 30th through Thursday, June 1st at the

39:33

Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. And joining Jonathan at that conference will be,

39:41

God willing, Joel Beeky, Jeff Thomas, William Vanderward, Mark Johnston, Carlton Nguyen, and Ian Hamilton.

39:50

And the theme is going to be The Living and Enduring Word. For more details on registering for this 2017

39:58

U .S. Ministers Conference, go to BannerofTruth .org,

40:03

BannerofTruth .org, click on Events, and then click on U .S.

40:09

Ministers Conference. And if you could, before we return to our subject, Jonathan, if you could explain in a little bit more detail what you are going to be speaking on at the

40:19

U .S. Ministers Conference. Well, my titles are both related to the

40:25

Word of God. The first address is entitled Living and Active, and the second, of course,

40:32

Sharper Than Any Two -Edged Sword. And that's, of course, taken from the book of Hebrews and its description of God's Word in Hebrews 4 .12.

40:45

But so both of these addresses are going to deal with situations in which

40:51

God's Word showed itself to be alive and continues to show itself to be able to do the work of God in the world.

41:06

And so I'm going to be dealing with an Old Testament text and a New Testament text, both of which, again, center around the power and efficacy and sufficiency of God's Word.

41:20

Amen. Well, I look forward to seeing you there at the 2017 U .S.

41:25

Ministers Conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. That's the Banner of Truth U .S.

41:30

Ministers Conference on the theme, The Living and Enduring Word, Tuesday, May 30th through Thursday, June 1st.

41:37

Go to banneroftruth .org, click on Events, and then click on U .S.

41:44

Ministers Conference. We do have a question for you, Jonathan, from Slovenia.

41:50

We have Joe in Slovenia who says, Dear Brother Chris, I've been struck deeply again by the level of intensity that Jesus requires of us to identify with Him as the very source of life as He labors repeatedly to convey that He is the bread of life in John chapter 6.

42:10

Please ask Brother Master to speak to Jesus' repeated references in this passage that we are redeemed by God's sovereign mercy as He draws out of ourselves into faith in Christ.

42:25

I guess he's meant to say as He draws us out of ourselves and into faith in Christ, Father, Son, and Spirit are all specifically mentioned in the work of God for our salvation.

42:39

What are some concise pointers and advice for applying this great truth from John chapter 6 to our daily lives?

42:49

Well, Joe, thank you for the question. You're right about John 6 being such an important chapter in our understanding of how it is that the triune

43:01

God redeems us in Christ. A couple of significant verses there.

43:09

Jesus says in verse 37 of John 6, All that the

43:14

Father gives to me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

43:20

That's kind of an interesting formulation because it shows very clearly that the initiative is that of God's.

43:27

It's the Father giving to the Son, and yet in time, the way it works out is individuals come to Jesus.

43:36

Whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. So there is a mystery there, but it's clear that the initiative is

43:45

God's, and in a sense, behind the scenes, everything that's happening is a work of God, and yet what we see are individuals, men and women, coming to Jesus, and Jesus promises that the ones who come to Him won't be cast out.

44:00

And then later on in verse 40, Jesus says that those who believe in Him have eternal life and are raised up on the last day, and then later on,

44:14

He's very clear in saying that no one can come to me unless the

44:20

Father who sent me draws him. So, you know, a couple of takeaways, I think, that are very clear.

44:26

First of all, it's God's work from beginning to end. Secondly, those who truly are trusting in Christ for their salvation,

44:36

He will receive and He gives promises to, so there's a security, an assurance that's bound up in that chapter as well.

44:45

And then, of course, we know that from beginning to end, the work of our salvation is the work of God.

44:55

Yes, and it is interesting that during conversations with some of my Roman Catholic friends, they will say that this chapter is primarily revealing how difficult it is for those outside of the

45:12

Roman Catholic faith to accept transubstantiation in the Mass, and that is why many people who were following Christ before departed from Him because they could not accept this idea of transubstantiation.

45:25

But it's interesting as I point my Catholic friends to in the text, Jesus says, no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the

45:37

Father. As a result of this, many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

45:43

So, it was really unconditional election and irresistible grace that is being taught by Christ here, and that is the reason why people walked away.

45:54

Nothing to do with transubstantiation. Would you agree with that? Oh, absolutely.

46:00

I think that's crystal clear in the text, and you're right. That's what causes people in John chapter 6 to walk away.

46:09

It's the words of Jesus that cause them to stumble, and then specifically His words where He says, and you quoted it in verse 65, no one can come to me unless it's granted by the

46:22

Father, and after this, many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

46:28

So, the cause and effect there is pretty clearly spelled out. Well, thank you

46:34

Joe in Slovenia, and thank you also for providing us with an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia, because we are shipping to her, to your attention, the

46:45

God we worship, adoring the one who pursues, redeems, and changes His people, edited by our guest

46:51

Jonathan L. Master, published by our friends at PNR Publishing who provided these copies of this book to our listeners, and also that will be shipped to you compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, bbs for biblebookservice .com,

47:13

cvbbs .com. So, look for that on the return address on the shipping label in the mail when you receive a package in the mail.

47:23

That's cvbbs .com, and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

47:30

And this is a very distasteful and disturbing truth, isn't it, that no one comes to Christ unless it has been granted to them by the

47:42

Father. You have multitudes of Christians, not only professing

47:47

Christians, but even our Armenian brethren or our non -Reform brethren, they find this to be horrifying, disturbing, ugly, but isn't it interesting that they really cannot demonstrate that their concept of how

48:05

Christ saves sinners is, even in the world's understanding of fairness, how their gospel and their presentation of it is any more fair.

48:17

They really can't do it, because if you believe there is a hell, and you believe that the way to get out of hell is by believing in Christ, well, everyone knows that for centuries there have been many millions of people on this globe who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel.

48:35

What happens to them? What happens to those people today who don't have an opportunity to hear the gospel?

48:42

And how is it fair, if you're going to look at an Armenian understanding of fairness, how is it fair that you have a child born in the

48:51

Bible belt to loving, nurturing Christian parents who teach that child from infancy the ways of God, and then you have a child being born in a militant

49:02

Muslim family where if they were to grow up and believe in Christ they would be executed, possibly, most probably, especially in certain areas of the world where there is

49:11

Sharia law. So this is not fair, if you want to talk about fair, is it?

49:18

No, I mean, and you're right, I think the more you sort of peel back the layers of the question, the more you realize there are complexities to all of our situations that are just beyond our comprehension.

49:33

We kind of find ourselves where Paul finds himself in the book of Romans, where he says, you know, who has known the mind of the

49:41

Lord? But, you know, to the bigger point, just about the fact of election,

49:47

Jesus really could not be any clearer in John chapter 6.

49:53

As a matter of fact, one of my favorite sermon titles of all time, I'm never good at coming up with sermon titles, but one of the ones that has stuck in my mind the most is a sermon titled, by the late

50:06

James Montgomery Boyce, on this section of John 6, and he called it, Christ the Calvinist, because the doctrines of election are so plainly taught.

50:17

In fact, I forgot to mention it earlier, was not James Montgomery Boyce the founder of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals?

50:22

He was, he was, and he was instrumental in the early years of the Alliance, and yes, he is.

50:30

I mean, there are sort of pieces of the Alliance that go back that predate him, but yeah, in effect, he really was.

50:37

Well, thank you again, Joe, in Slovenia, and we have another listener from Greensboro, North Carolina.

50:48

We have Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker of Shepherd Fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I am enlarging the font on his email since it's microscopic.

51:00

With respect to the sovereignty of God and salvation, is the Arminian free will gospel not the closest doctrine to heresy that there can be?

51:10

Thanks, Chris, for the good show. I'm not quite understanding his question. Let me repeat it.

51:16

With respect to the sovereignty of God and salvation, is the Arminian free will gospel not the closest doctrine to heresy that there can be?

51:26

I guess what he's saying is, for a Christian to believe something, is this the closest thing that there is to heresy?

51:32

I think that's what he means, but maybe you can interpret it differently, I don't know. Yeah, Pastor Sterling, thanks for listening, thanks for the question.

51:42

I'm struggling a little bit with giving a clear answer as well. What I would say is this, you know, there are ways that Arminian doctrine gets expressed that I think are very clearly antithetical to the

52:06

Scriptures. There are perhaps more sophisticated ways of expressing it that really do,

52:13

I think, try to do justice to the Bible. I don't agree with them, I don't think they do justice to the

52:19

Bible, but they make a fault of them. So I wouldn't want to put a blanket kind of statement like that out there myself, although if I understand what you're driving at,

52:35

I think maybe what you're highlighting is the fact that if we remove the sovereignty of God in our salvation, we really do lose a central component of Jesus' teaching, and I certainly agree with that.

52:50

And it's interesting how, thankfully, many Arminians are inconsistent with their theology on paper because they really, in their heart of hearts, know

53:00

God is in control, and as I believe it was J .I. Packer that said, all men are Calvinists on their knees in prayer.

53:07

But all Christians, I should say, are Calvinists on their knees in prayer. But thank you

53:12

Sterling, and you are receiving a free copy of The God We Worship, edited by our guest

53:19

Jonathan Master, and please make sure we have your full mailing address so we can have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship that out to you, compliments of PNR Publishing.

53:29

The Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co -host, has a question or comment, but if you could hold on to that, Buzz, so right when we return from the break, we'll pick up with that.

53:38

So don't forget what you were going to say. And we're going to be right back, God willing, with more of Jonathan Master and The God We Worship right after these messages.

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We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

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We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how

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God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things. That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the

01:01:16

Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

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Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

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Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the Jersey Shore. Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

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And I hope you join the Rev. Buzz Taylor and me at Harvey Cedars Bible Conference Center in Harvey Cedars, New Jersey on Long Beach Island for the next

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Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals Pastors Retreat, known as the Faithful Shepherd.

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That's going to be May 15th through the 17th. That's this Monday through Wednesday.

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If you'd like more details on this Pastors Retreat, go to AllianceNet .org.

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AllianceNet .org. Click on Events, and then click on the

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Faithful Shepherd. You'll have all the details that you need to register. Also, as I mentioned earlier, our guest today,

01:05:00

Jonathan Master, is going to be one of the featured speakers at the Banner of Truths 2017

01:05:07

U .S. Ministers Conference. That's Tuesday, May 30th through Thursday, June 1st at Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

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The theme is going to be the Living and Enduring Word. For more details, go to BannerofTruth .org.

01:05:39

That's BannerofTruth .org. Click on Events, and click on U .S.

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Ministers Conference. That's BannerofTruth .org, Events, and then click on U .S.

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Ministers Conference. Following that, in June, that's

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June 22nd and the 23rd, Sermon Audio is going to be hosting their

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West 26th Street in New York City. And the speakers at that event include

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Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Dr. Joel Beeky, Phil Johnson, who is the Executive Director of John MacArthur's Ministry, grace to you,

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Todd Friel, host of the Wretched TV and Wretched Radio broadcast, and more.

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And if you'd like information about that conference, go to TheFoundationsConference .com,

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TheFoundationsConference .com. And then after that, we have in August, August 3rd through the 5th,

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Fellowship Conference New England is being held in Reverend Buzz Taylor's Old Stomping Grounds in Portland, Maine, at the

01:06:58

Deering Center Community Church. And the featured speakers at that event include

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Pastor Don Curran, and he is the European Coordinator with HeartCry Ministry Society, Missionary Society, which was founded by Paul Washer, which is a name that I'm sure most of you recognize.

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Also Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

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He's also the author of Reviving New England, which is a book we are going to be discussing with Pastor Pickowitz in late

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June. So I hope that you listen to that interview with Pastor Nate Pickowitz.

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In fact, I will give you the exact date. That's Tuesday, June 27th.

01:08:02

Pastor Nate Pickowitz will be on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to discuss that book. But once again, that's the

01:08:07

Fellowship Conference New England, August 3rd through the 5th at the

01:08:13

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. Go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com

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for more information. That's fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. Last but not least, as far as events are concerned, the

01:08:27

G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia is going to be held in 2018,

01:08:34

January of 2018, and I have just received confirmation from Pastor Josh Bice, the founder of this annual conference, that Iron Sharpens Iron is having an exhibitor's booth there, and I am thoroughly looking forward to that conference, which will be my second

01:08:53

G3 Conference manning an exhibitor's booth. And the speakers at this upcoming

01:09:00

G3 Conference include Paul Washer, Tim Challies, D .A.

01:09:06

Carson, Conrad Mbewe, Stephen J. Lawson, Josh Bice, Phil Johnson, Todd Friel, Dr.

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James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and a number of other speakers. And if you would like to attend that conference, go to g3conference .com,

01:09:25

g3conference .com. And I would really love to meet many of you who listen to Iron Sharpens Iron who

01:09:35

I have never met before, and this is going to be, as I said, in January of 2018, which will be here,

01:09:46

I'm sure, before you know it, like a twinkling of an eye, the older I get, the faster time seems to move.

01:09:54

But I look forward to seeing you there. And I do want to remind you, although sometimes

01:10:00

I feel uncomfortable with these segments of the show, but I do want to remind you that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is in urgent need of more donations and also more advertisers.

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I would love to receive any gifts that you care to give. And now we are back to our interview with Jonathan Master, the

01:12:28

God we worship, adoring the one who pursues, redeems, and changes his people. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:12:38

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And the Reverend Buzz Taylor, I don't know if you had a question or a comment, but it was during Jonathan's answer to Sterling's question about Arminianism being the closest thing to heresy in the church is what

01:12:53

I believe he was asking about. Yes, I was trying to wrap my brain around that question to try to figure out exactly what he was asking, and I'm not sure if I got this or not, but I think

01:13:04

I understand a little bit about where he's coming from. I have no doubt that there is a gospel presentation going around in evangelicalism that we could very well call, for lack of a better term, a heresy.

01:13:20

But to say the non -Calvinist gospel is heresy, well,

01:13:25

I'll let some others speak on that because Spurgeon has certainly talked about that, R .C. Sproul has, but I remember a conversation that my stepfather, my late stepfather, was having with a former pastor of mine shortly after he had come into the

01:13:41

Reformed Theological Camp, and he said to my pastor, you know, it was like getting saved all over again.

01:13:48

And I got to thinking about that because at that point, you know, that's when it seemed like in his life there began spiritual fruit, and so I was trying to figure out what was actually going on.

01:13:58

You know, I cannot say what goes on in individuals' hearts, and I'm certainly not on a witch hunt as to who's saved and who is not, but I think it's interesting that at some point, a lot of times, people stop trusting in the signing of my

01:14:13

Bible in Vacation Bible School, the going forward at an invitation, the praying of a sinner's prayer, all these things that are presented as God's plan of salvation today.

01:14:21

When we stop trusting in those things and start to realize I was a sitting duck, that the only reason

01:14:27

I wanted to be saved was because God drew me, it changes our whole outlook on things.

01:14:33

And, you know, I think it's very possible that many people are being converted because of the fact that they're finally trusting in the

01:14:39

Gospel of Jesus Christ. Any comments, Jonathan? No, I mean,

01:14:45

I think, you know, Buzz brings up some interesting angles to this, and I think

01:14:51

I really appreciated what he said at the beginning about some of Spurgeon's words, and, you know, John Newton and many others whom we could cite, you know, that there are heretical quote -unquote presentations of the

01:15:06

Gospel going around. I wouldn't necessarily place Arminianism in that category, but again, some of it comes down to a question of definitions and who we're exactly talking about.

01:15:18

But no, some helpful caveats there, I appreciate that. And of course, Charles Spurgeon never said that all

01:15:26

Arminians are lost. He had great lofty and high accolades expressed to Arminians of his day, and even had

01:15:36

D .L. Moody preach in his church. Well, I was thinking more specifically in relation to what he said about Calvinism being a nickname for the

01:15:45

Gospel, that anything less is less than the Gospel. Right, yes. And of course, you had the two friends that were involved in heated debate over these issues,

01:15:59

George Whitefield and Jonathan, and John Wesley, I'm sorry. And George Whitefield thought so highly of Wesley that he requested that Wesley preach at his funeral after he died, which

01:16:13

Wesley did. So the greatest of reformed heroes never discounted all

01:16:21

Arminians as being lost. And of course, we even have movements, although they are a tiny minority, we have movements within Calvinism, wouldn't you agree,

01:16:32

Jonathan, that are heretical and dangerous? Those who would truly be hyper -Calvinists who believe that we should not indiscriminately evangelize all people with the

01:16:43

Gospel and other things that would connect them to a hyper -Calvinistic understanding of the

01:16:51

Gospel and evangelism? Yeah, it's an extremely dangerous error, and since we mentioned

01:16:58

Spurgeon, it's worth mentioning that Spurgeon fought against the error of hyper -Calvinism quite explicitly.

01:17:06

That's right, the strict Baptists were against him, and I've even had the misfortune of having dialogue with people recently, one of whom blocked me from promoting my program on his

01:17:23

Facebook page because he said, because I defended Charles Haddon Spurgeon, I was not faithful to the 1689

01:17:30

London Baptist Confession of Faith. It was a pretty interesting conversation.

01:17:35

But anyway, let's go on, let's move on to, at the risk of being redundant since we did speak about worship,

01:17:45

I want to move on now to the word adoring the one who pursues, redeems, and changes his people.

01:17:51

What specifically is unique about the word adoring, which is an aspect of worship, but it's not the totality of worship?

01:17:59

I think that the reason we selected that word in the title was because it has a kind of affective component to it.

01:18:11

When you think about something you adore, it seems to convey, at least in English, more than just looking towards it, more than just turning your attention to it, but having this deep, abiding affection for the object of the adoration.

01:18:33

And so I think that's what we were getting at, that when we talk about worship, it's not a cold and clinical thing.

01:18:42

It is something that is part of our—it's our whole being is focused in worshiping the

01:18:55

Lord. Yes, in fact, you could technically, I assume, you could worship

01:19:03

God merely out of terror, but adoring involves love and a longing to have fellowship with this

01:19:12

God. Like, for instance, I don't know what your take is on Romans 14, 11, where Paul, the apostle, says, for it is written,

01:19:23

As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.

01:19:29

Some people take that to mean that on that day, that last day, when even the lost realize that Jesus Christ is who he claimed to be, that they will be bowing the knee to him merely out of terror, they will not be saved by this.

01:19:48

But I'm not sure if you exegete that passage in that way, but some do. Yeah, and it is one of the remarkable things about the

01:19:59

God of the Bible, that while, you know, he does dwell in unapproachable light, and he is holy, and he is our

01:20:08

Creator, at the same time, we approach him through Jesus Christ confidently, we're told to, we approach him through Jesus Christ as our

01:20:18

Father, who loves to give good gifts to his children, we cast our burdens upon him, and so that is the remarkable truth, and I think you're right to contrast adoration with simple terror, which is part of so much of the pagan idolatry we see even in the

01:20:41

Bible, and yet is not the way that believers ever are approaching the

01:20:50

Lord. Now how would you say that God pursues his people, and perhaps even in contrast to the biblical teaching that many are called but few are chosen, perhaps you could explain

01:21:07

God's pursuit of his people in contrast to the call that goes out to all.

01:21:15

Yeah, I think what's clear when you pull apart the

01:21:22

Bible's teaching on salvation is that God is the one who has taken the initiative,

01:21:28

God is the one who has chosen, he has elected, God is the one who brings people to new spiritual life by his

01:21:39

Spirit, and the picture that's given of humanity, that's given of us in our nature, is that we were actually in our natural state simply pursuing our own fleshly desires, so we're running in one direction, you might say, and it is the

01:22:01

Lord who is taking hold of us in salvation.

01:22:07

We are dead in our trespasses and sins, we are following the course of this world, we are following the

01:22:14

Prince of the Air, we are carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and it is

01:22:21

God who is the one who is rich in mercy and makes us alive together with Christ.

01:22:30

So that aspect of his pursuit, I think, sort of captures the initiative that he takes.

01:22:37

And we have that theme in Christendom that divides the body of Christ, that issue of the redemption of God's people on Calvary.

01:22:52

The doctrine has been nicknamed by Calvinists Limited Atonement, it has also been called

01:23:00

Particular Redemption or Definite Atonement, but we come to that word in your title, redeems, the

01:23:08

God who redeems his people. Tell us something about that.

01:23:13

There are those outside of Reformed theology, even if they would never dare say this specifically in words, but you cannot help but ascertain that they are saying that God in salvation, or in Christ's work on Calvary I should say, that Christ's work on Calvary makes men redeemable.

01:23:40

He doesn't redeem them, although they would probably likely never say that. You can't help but arrive at that conclusion, that he is making men redeemable on the cross rather than redeeming them, whereas we who are

01:23:54

Reformed, we believe that his work of redemption was finished. He meant it literally when he said, it is finished.

01:24:03

Am I right? Yeah, you are, and you know, it is striking.

01:24:09

If you go through your New Testament and look at the words that are describing the salvation of believers, they are definite words.

01:24:20

And so we are redeemed, not redeemable. We are saved.

01:24:28

We are brought to life. We are regenerated. So all of these are definite, definite words.

01:24:37

So I think that's one way to very clearly support the doctrine of definite atonement, or as you say, limited atonement.

01:24:47

I think another important feature of that doctrine to bear in mind is that what it's also saying is that the work of God is not a piecemeal work.

01:25:03

That is, when we think about the outworking of God's triune nature in redemption, we see

01:25:12

God the Father elects, and God the

01:25:17

Son purchases, and God the Spirit brings to new life. And so in the economy of redemption, the triune

01:25:25

God is in concert with Himself. And so both at the level of just the simple grammar, the terms that are used, as you say, are definite terms, and then when you think about it theologically, you know,

01:25:41

God is doing this work, and He's not sort of at odds with Himself in doing it.

01:25:50

Yes, I have said to people who reject the notion of limited atonement, and by the way, for those of you who are unfamiliar or still misunderstanding that term, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the power of God being limited, or the atoning work of Christ in its power being limited.

01:26:12

It's the opposite. It is so powerful and unlimited in its power that it actually redeems or has redeemed those for whom

01:26:22

He died. Whereas the Arminian, as Charles Spurgeon said, the Arminian is really the one who has an atonement that is limited in its power because he dies for all, and yet most are lost.

01:26:34

But I have said to people who reject our understanding of redemption, who are the redeemed?

01:26:42

And they will say, well, Christians, of course. And I have said, well, is the work of redemption of Christ on the cross finished?

01:26:52

Yes, of course. Why don't you call everyone the redeemed then? Doesn't that make sense?

01:26:58

Wouldn't every single person be called the redeemed if indeed Christ died to redeem everyone?

01:27:04

Well, and I think that's right, and that's the problem that you run into if you try to take that to its logical extreme.

01:27:11

It's just simply not the language of Scripture. And I think most who would, in an informed way, hold to that position understand that it's not the language of Scripture, and yet they, of course, would talk about certain texts that they would think support their position.

01:27:30

But I agree with you. I mean, the language of our salvation is definite language, and Christ accomplishes what

01:27:37

He sets out to do. We are going to our final break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air, now is your opportunity.

01:27:45

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01:31:28

This is Chris Arnsin. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about a half hour to go is

01:31:36

Jonathan Master, and we are discussing his book that he edited, The God We Worship, Adoring the

01:31:42

One Who Pursues, Redeems, and Changes His People. And we have also been announcing the

01:31:50

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01:32:06

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01:32:12

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01:32:19

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01:32:25

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01:32:34

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01:32:43

And we have Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker clarifying his question for you,

01:32:49

Jonathan, and perhaps if you'd like you can comment on his clarification. He says,

01:32:55

I was asking the question for a sort of qualitative comparison to heresy in that the truth of the scripture is most certainly the sovereignty of God in salvation.

01:33:08

Men who fail to submit their will to the words of scripture may still be saved in their actual state, but horribly selfish in their interpretation and application of the scripture.

01:33:20

That's why I asked the question with the word close to heresy. Certainly Jesus saves some even with their

01:33:28

Arminian leanings. Do you have anything to add to that, Jonathan? Yeah, it's a helpful clarification,

01:33:36

Pastor Vanderwerker. I would say that, yeah, if someone is knowingly turning their back or sort of hardening their heart to the word of God, that is a dangerous, dangerous position to be in.

01:33:54

The reason why I would hedge just slightly is because I think there are good and godly men who are persuaded that what they're teaching is what the scriptures teach.

01:34:10

I disagree with them. I think it sounds to me like I would agree with Pastor Vanderwerker in terms of the clarity of scripture on this topic.

01:34:20

So I think we're on the same page in terms of that but I would want to distinguish between people who are seeing this very clearly and yet consciously saying, no,

01:34:32

I won't accept that, I can't accept that for whatever personal or other reason they might have.

01:34:39

That to me would be a dangerous and scary place for anyone to be. And I would distinguish that, though, from someone who says,

01:34:48

I'm not persuaded that that is what the scriptures teach. And in that case, you know,

01:34:53

I might not quite understand that, but I would put it in a slightly different category.

01:35:00

Now, Reverend Buzz Taylor, you have been a Christian in varying theological camps throughout your journey.

01:35:09

You are Reformed now, but you began, as we have said on a number of occasions on this program, you began as a freewill -believing, anti -Calvinist, independent, fundamentalist

01:35:20

Baptist. And then you became a member or pastor in the Church of God, Findlay, Ohio denomination, which is a

01:35:28

Wesleyan Baptist sort of denomination. And then you became charismatic, or perhaps

01:35:35

I've mixed those stages up in their order and their chronology. Then you became a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, and you pastored for a period of time in a

01:35:47

Presbyterian Church General Assembly, I believe is the denomination, Reformed Presbyterian Church. Yes, yes. So do you believe that you were a bonafide, born -again, regenerate person during those years and was an

01:35:59

Arminian? Oh, yes, I do believe that, but I will tell you right now that I was simply a victim of what

01:36:05

I had been taught in Bible college and, of course, in greater evangelicalism, you know, all through Christian radio and all.

01:36:12

And when I finally saw the doctrines of grace, they made sense to me. And of course,

01:36:18

I felt compelled by the scriptures to alter my views towards what we have called

01:36:25

Calvinism. But yeah, I don't question that I was born again before that.

01:36:30

You know, I had repented of my sin and trusted in Christ for my redemption, you know, Christ alone.

01:36:38

But yeah, I was, in fact, I was amazed because I don't usually say this, so, you know, don't let this get out too far, okay?

01:36:46

But when I was a Baptist pastor, an independent, fundamental Baptist pastor— What do you mean, don't let this go out too far?

01:36:52

This is global, pal. Yeah, yeah. I was saying that rather tongue -in -cheek because I realize that it's about to go all over.

01:37:00

When I was a fundamental Baptist pastor, I preached a four -part series against Calvinism, and I was amazed when

01:37:10

I go—once I became a Calvinist and I went back and looked over my notes, that I was able to find the information that I found as my support materials because I was just simply going back to my textbooks and theology books and all, and that was the way

01:37:25

I was taught. And a lot of the opponents of Reformed theology merely read and quote other opponents of Calvinism.

01:37:34

They don't read the Calvinists themselves like Calvin and the Puritans and other great men of faith.

01:37:40

Yeah. Let's move on to the final word—well, actually, it's the second -to -last word of this title—that the

01:37:56

God that we worship changes His people. This is something also that tragically divides the body of Christ, or perhaps, should

01:38:05

I say, at least divides the true Christian from the professing one.

01:38:11

It actually does divide those who are Christians in a genuine sense.

01:38:19

But the issue of whether repentance is necessary for salvation—there have been, over the decades, and probably most glaringly obvious, it seems, in the 1980s, it rose to the surface, this dispute or debate when

01:38:41

John MacArthur wrote the book The Gospel According to Jesus, where he spelled out clearly that repentance is necessary for salvation, and you had a lot of people who primarily were dispensationalists—perhaps not all—who revolted against this notion, and many, in fact, broke fellowship with Dr.

01:39:01

MacArthur over this. And this is a very serious issue, isn't it? Because on the one hand, while the

01:39:09

Church of Rome heretically teaches that this change is the basis for our justification, the other opposite danger is saying that the change is not a guarantee, that people may live like Satan unrepentantly for decades until they die and will nonetheless still enter glory, according to these heretical

01:39:31

Protestants or Evangelicals. But this change will indeed take place, and it is an essential aspect of the

01:39:37

Gospel, isn't it? It is, and you know, this is connected with the question of who takes the initiative in our salvation.

01:39:49

If you believe what the Bible teaches about God's work in salvation, what you also are led to conclude is that the work of salvation involves the work of regeneration, or the new birth.

01:40:04

And Jesus himself talks about this in John 3 when he says, you must be born again, and he talks about being born of the

01:40:14

Spirit, and Peter echoes that same language, talking about being born again by the living and abiding

01:40:22

Word of God, and so the fact of the matter is that biblical salvation involves a change wrought by God, first of all, of course, towards our sin and towards Jesus himself, but that change,

01:40:39

Peter calls it a seed that is planted in us, John uses the same language in 1 John, will grow and will continue to bear fruit.

01:40:51

So, you know, to understand what the Bible teaches about salvation and to understand what the

01:40:58

Bible teaches about who Christ is, you know, it involves a change in who we are, and it's not a change that we bring about by our own sort of works that make us, you know, pleasing in God's sight, in and of ourselves, but it's a change that God brings about by his

01:41:21

Holy Spirit, and it's a seed that bears fruit. Tom Amen, and this change is also necessary at the very beginning, at the genesis of our rebirth, because isn't it true that unless we are first given a new heart, unless we are first regenerated by God himself, the gospel will just fall on deaf ears, or we may even agree to it as some kind of a theological truth, but not really absorb it as a belief that trusts and glorifies

01:42:03

God for this teaching. Of course, we all know that there have been theologically orthodox but nonetheless dead professors and teachers and preachers over the centuries who believed facts correctly but were nonetheless lost and headed for hell, and this, as they call it, the ordo salutis, the order of salvation, this change of heart and mind needs to take place before even somebody correctly and savingly believes the truths about Christ and his gospel, am

01:42:35

I right? Absolutely. Paul puts this very concisely, as you know, in 1

01:42:41

Corinthians chapter 2, where he says the natural person does not accept the things of the

01:42:47

Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they're spiritually discerned.

01:42:56

And so you're right, in our natural state, we will not, and in fact we cannot, receive those things as true, and at some level we might be able to, you know, make sense of the logic of the sentences, but to receive them as our own, to accept them, to rely on them, is something we can't do in and of ourselves, and so we need the work of God's Spirit to transform us.

01:43:29

Paul says in Romans that those who are in the flesh cannot please God, and so that brings us back to this doctrine of regeneration or being born again or the new birth.

01:43:39

The Bible uses a number of different phrases to talk about it, and that is so significant to our understanding of our own salvation.

01:43:52

James puts it this way, of his own will, so it's God's will, he brought us forth by the

01:43:59

Word of Truth. And so it's God's Spirit using God's Word, faith comes by hearing the

01:44:06

Word of Christ, God's Spirit using His Word to give us new spiritual life.

01:44:13

I think the Ordo Salutis is beautifully pictured in Acts 16 -14, where we have a woman named

01:44:23

Lydia from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening, and the

01:44:31

Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

01:44:37

It took the Lord to open her heart in order for her to respond to the teaching that she was hearing of the

01:44:45

Gospel and of Christ. Well, it's a beautiful, that's a beautiful text, because there are, of course, many occasions in Acts and in the

01:44:54

Gospels where it just says someone believed, but what Luke does for us there is he very clearly, as it were, pulls back the curtain.

01:45:02

He does that again as well in Acts 13, just a few chapters before.

01:45:08

Yeah, Acts 13 -48. That's right, when he talks about the Gentiles believing, and it says, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

01:45:18

Amen. So yeah, those are critically important texts for our understanding of salvation.

01:45:25

Yes, a friend of mine that I've known, who I've known since the 1980s, Dr. F. Lagarde Smith, he is a non -Calvinist individual who is from the

01:45:37

Church of Christ's Restorationist background. He wrote a book opposing the doctrines of Sovereign Grace a number of years ago.

01:45:48

It was called Troubling Questions for Calvinists and the

01:45:53

Rest of Us. I think that may have been the subtitle. I can't remember the primary title. But even he, in his book, which my view of him, my admiration of him, went up leaps and bounds after I read this, because even he, in his book, admitted that he has never heard of a non -Calvinist explanation of Acts 13 -48 that made sense.

01:46:24

He could not explain it. And even though his whole book was an effort to refute

01:46:29

Calvinism, he was honest enough to say that I have read the attempted refutation of Calvinism in this passage by a number of non -Calvinist scholars and exegetes, but I do not believe that they are being faithful to the wording here.

01:46:49

And so it is interesting that somebody who is even an opponent of Calvinism acknowledged that.

01:46:56

Yeah, it's an interesting admission. I mean, like him, I've read some very detailed attempts to,

01:47:04

I think, avoid what's pretty clear in this text.

01:47:10

But like him, I would say unsuccessfully, because I think

01:47:16

Luke just makes it very plain. Yes, and the last couple of words here in your title that I wanted to address, the

01:47:27

God we worship adoring the one who pursues, redeems, and changes his people.

01:47:34

I cannot help but go to the Gospel of John in chapter 10, verses 27 -30.

01:47:42

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

01:47:55

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the

01:48:02

Father's hand, and I am the Father, our one. And it is also interesting that the order here of how someone is a sheep or becomes a sheep, as opposed to being a lost person or a goat, you don't have people becoming sheep in John 10 by believing.

01:48:31

They're believing because they're his sheep already. Yeah, it's a great text that really fleshes out the title there.

01:48:43

I have to confess, I don't remember if that particular text was in our minds, but it certainly could well have been, because you're right, it beautifully explains what we're trying to convey there.

01:49:01

Yes, and this is a beautiful way to wrap up the fact that although you may argue,

01:49:12

Calvinists even disagree with one another on the love of God for all humanity.

01:49:21

You have from one extreme, there is only the hard lines of love and hate.

01:49:27

You have others who will say that God may love all of humanity, but he certainly cannot love them all the same, and that is obviously, if you believe in an eternal hell, you have to believe that God cannot love everyone the same.

01:49:47

He cannot love everyone with a parental or spousal love if there is indeed a hell that will be inhabited by people.

01:49:57

Yeah, you know, I think you're right. Sometimes the language of God's love for humanity gets thrown around very cavalierly, but when the

01:50:08

Bible speaks specifically about, as you say, God's paternal love for his children, that is something different, and that is something that is language that's set apart for those who are trusting in Jesus Christ, those who have been saved by God.

01:50:29

And so, yeah, we do need to make those kinds of distinctions, and I think the

01:50:35

Bible does make them very clearly, but in fact, you know, I think sometimes people will throw the language around in a way that is a little less discriminant than the

01:50:47

Scriptures themselves are, and you're right, the Bible is very clear about the reality of eternal hell for those who have rejected

01:50:58

Jesus Christ. Going back to a couple of verses in John chapter 10, going back to 24, where it says, well, let's start at 22.

01:51:16

At that time, the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.

01:51:26

The Jews then gathered around him and were saying to him, how long will you keep us in suspense if you are the

01:51:32

Christ? Tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe the works that I do in my

01:51:38

Father's name. These testify of me, but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep.

01:51:46

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I was discussing that just a few minutes ago about how people do not become sheep by believing, they believe because they are already his sheep.

01:51:58

Does this not militate against, and I am doing this at risk of offending my dispensationalist brethren who

01:52:05

I love dearly, but the notion that today the

01:52:11

Jews are exclusively the chosen people of God, doesn't this militate against that understanding?

01:52:18

Because Jesus is speaking to Jews, and he is telling these specific Jews that they are not of my sheep.

01:52:26

And of course, we know that there are multitudes of Jews who are of his sheep because the church began exclusively, or nearly exclusively, as a

01:52:36

Jewish group of people who were transformed by the blood of Christ. But this is not an exclusive group, or exclusive club,

01:52:47

I should say, the chosen or the elect that many, even professing

01:52:53

Christians, claim today that the Jews are the chosen people. Aren't the chosen people those described in Revelation as being those who have been chosen from out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation?

01:53:08

Yeah, when the New Testament talks about God's elect or God's chosen people, it's talking about those who are believers in Jesus Christ, and those are both

01:53:21

Jew and Gentile. And so the New Testament usage of that term is referring to the church.

01:53:33

I mean, that's who Paul is speaking to when he talks about you as are

01:53:39

God's chosen people, or to God's elect in such and such a city. He is talking to the church.

01:53:50

And let's see, we have, well, this is on a related subject, we have

01:53:55

C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks, would you describe dispensationalism as merely incorrect, or would you bring it to the level of heretical teaching?

01:54:10

Yeah, I wouldn't describe it in terms of a heresy. I mean, look, there are probably writers who go by any number of labels who have taught things that are serious errors.

01:54:28

So it's not to say that you couldn't find a dispensational writer who has taught things that are, you know, even perhaps undermining the gospel itself.

01:54:42

But as a system of teaching, and as a way of understanding the scriptures,

01:54:49

I would not put it in that category at all. Well, I'm sighing an enormous sigh of relief that you said that, because one of my dearest friends and one of my largest sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron happens to be a

01:55:04

Calvinist dispensationalist. Yeah, no, exactly. And I think, look,

01:55:10

I mean, we could all, whatever our, you know, theological stripe, we could all cherry -pick authors and, you know, people who support our position, who have said and written indefensible things.

01:55:28

But as a system, the basic tenets are, you know, I would not at all rise to that level in my judgment.

01:55:38

And thank you, CJ, from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and you have won a free copy of the book we have been discussing,

01:55:45

The God We Worship, edited by Jonathan L. Master. So please make sure we have your full mailing address, and we'll have that shipped out to you.

01:55:53

I want you to now summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to this subject today.

01:56:03

What I think is most significant, when we talk about worship, we often focus on the elements of worship, and that's an important discussion.

01:56:15

The way in which worship manifests itself in a Sunday morning gathering, and that's very important.

01:56:23

But the emphasis of this book is, I think, what should be primary when we talk about worship. We have to be clear about who it is to whom we are directing our worship.

01:56:37

That is, who is the God whom we gather together to worship? And I think when we're clear about that, then many of the questions about how it is that we're to approach

01:56:49

Him and what are the elements of our corporate gathered worship fall into place.

01:56:58

But if we aren't clear on that, then I think, really, those other discussions become entirely peripheral.

01:57:07

We need to understand and have clarity about the

01:57:12

God who is the object of our worship. Amen. And there are a couple of you who are waiting to have your questions asked and answered by our guests, but I'm sorry we're out of time, but I am going to make sure that you both get a free copy of the book that we are addressing,

01:57:32

The God We Worship, edited by Jonathan L. Master. Thank you for patiently waiting, and your patience will be rewarded.

01:57:41

I want our listeners to know that they can get in touch with Cairn University.

01:57:48

Is that right, that time? Yes, you did. CairnUniversity at C -A -I -R -N -dot -E -D -U,

01:57:55

C -A -I -R -N -dot -E -D -U. You can also get a hold of our friends at the

01:58:03

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, where Jonathan is on the staff, our guest

01:58:10

Jonathan. That is AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org.

01:58:17

And of course, don't forget about the conference where our guest Jonathan Master is a featured speaker, among others.

01:58:26

That's the Banner of Truth 2017 U .S. Ministers' Conference, Tuesday, May 30th through Thursday, June 1st, in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at Elizabethtown College.

01:58:37

For more details on that conference, go to BannerofTruth .org,

01:58:44

BannerofTruth .org. And of course, let's not forget

01:58:49

PNR Publishing, who have provided the books today that we have given away.

01:58:56

And I thank Bryce Craig and those at PNR Publishing who provided these books.

01:59:03

That's PRPBooks .com, PRPBooks .com. And last but not least, the

01:59:09

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, where you can get any book almost every time by the authors we interview.

01:59:16

That's CVBBS .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

01:59:22

Thank you so much, Jonathan, for being a guest on our program today. I look forward to having you back often, and I look forward to seeing you,

01:59:29

God willing, at the Banner of Truth U .S. Ministers' Conference. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Buzz. It's always a pleasure to talk with you.

01:59:35

If you could hold on, if you don't mind, I'd like to schedule another interview with you before you hang up the phone.

01:59:41

Will do. And I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater